On Thu, 22 Jan 2015 13:37:42 -0600, philo wrote:

The furnace is 23 years old and 80% efficient...and I was going to
replace it anyway.

The contractor I called just quoted me a 96% efficient Goodman for $3500
installed so I signed the deal.

That was only $1000 more than the old one...
plus I /might/ qualify for an energy rebate.

Ask the contractor for any forms necessary for any energy credit. For
tax purposes

On 01/22/2015 01:43 PM, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 22 Jan 2015 13:37:42 -0600, philo wrote:

The furnace is 23 years old and 80% efficient...and I was going to
replace it anyway.

The contractor I called just quoted me a 96% efficient Goodman for $3500
installed so I signed the deal.

That was only $1000 more than the old one...
plus I /might/ qualify for an energy rebate.

Ask the contractor for any forms necessary for any energy credit. For
tax purposes




Yep, he has all that stuff on his website. Depending on my income it can
be between $150 and $700


Even without it I was very happy with the reasonable quote I got.

On Thu, 22 Jan 2015 13:48:48 -0600, philo wrote:

On 01/22/2015 01:43 PM, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 22 Jan 2015 13:37:42 -0600, philo wrote:

The furnace is 23 years old and 80% efficient...and I was going to
replace it anyway.

The contractor I called just quoted me a 96% efficient Goodman for $3500
installed so I signed the deal.

That was only $1000 more than the old one...
plus I /might/ qualify for an energy rebate.

Ask the contractor for any forms necessary for any energy credit. For
tax purposes




Yep, he has all that stuff on his website. Depending on my income it can
be between $150 and $700


Even without it I was very happy with the reasonable quote I got.

Good for you. Did he say what SEER rating the furnace is? I think my
HVAC system is SEER 14 ... SEER 16 is the highest efficiency, I think.

On 01/22/2015 01:55 PM, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 22 Jan 2015 13:48:48 -0600, philo wrote:

On 01/22/2015 01:43 PM, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 22 Jan 2015 13:37:42 -0600, philo wrote:

The furnace is 23 years old and 80% efficient...and I was going to
replace it anyway.

The contractor I called just quoted me a 96% efficient Goodman for $3500
installed so I signed the deal.

That was only $1000 more than the old one...
plus I /might/ qualify for an energy rebate.

Ask the contractor for any forms necessary for any energy credit. For
tax purposes




Yep, he has all that stuff on his website. Depending on my income it can
be between $150 and $700


Even without it I was very happy with the reasonable quote I got.

Good for you. Did he say what SEER rating the furnace is? I think my
HVAC system is SEER 14 ... SEER 16 is the highest efficiency, I think.




I did not ask about that but going from 80% to 96% sounded good to me. I
even found the receipt for the 23 year old furnace and it was $2800
so even without a rebate the new one is only a few hundred more.

I can see why the guy has been in business for over 40 years.

On 1/22/2015 2:41 PM, philo wrote:
The contractor told me that a liner for the water heater is recommended
simply to keep the chimney from deteriorating...so I am not going to
bother with that. The chimney is maybe 20 years old and I will replace
the water heater (eventually) with a non-chimney type.

With my new furnace I opted for an Aprilaire filter which should be
better than the piece of junk I have now.

When I did installs, we often put on
whole house humidifiers for winter.
I think that's excellent idea.

Flow through type, not rotating drum.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 1/22/2015 2:55 PM, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 22 Jan 2015 13:48:48 -0600, philo wrote:
The contractor I called just quoted me a 96% efficient Goodman for $3500
installed so I signed the deal.

Good for you. Did he say what SEER rating the furnace is? I think my
HVAC system is SEER 14 ... SEER 16 is the highest efficiency, I think.


I may be mistaken, but the SEER is a measure of
AC. OP Philo did say it's a 96% efficient furnace.
Philo, you getting central AC also, or just
furnace?

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Thu, 22 Jan 2015 15:30:59 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I may be mistaken, but the SEER is a measure of
AC. OP Philo did say it's a 96% efficient furnace.
Philo, you getting central AC also, or just
furnace?


SEER

SEER stands for Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio.

The Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio (SEER) measures air conditioning
and heat pump cooling efficiency, which is calculated by the cooling
output for a typical cooling season divided by the total electric
energy input during the same time frame. A higher SEER rating means
greater energy efficiency.

http://www.trane.com/residential/en/resources/glossary/what-is-seer.html

OP's furnace will be SEER rated.

On Thursday, January 22, 2015 at 1:29:05 PM UTC-6, Tony Hwang wrote:
philo wrote:
On 01/22/2015 11:13 AM, bob_villa wrote:
X

snip




No liner in the chimney?

If it will work as-is...one less thing I will have to deal with this
weekend.

I checked...I have an 8" double-walled chimney. When I bought the
house the furnace was oil-fired and had a woodburner in a common stack
(not code). The WH was electric. I didn't use the woodburner. Now it's
NG WH and furnace...is your friend saying the cold draft in Winter is
going to be a problem to overcome for the WH alone?




Yes, that'd what he told me and the guy is a building inspector...
however he did make that statement without seeing the setup here.

OTOH: When the heating contractor gets here within the next couple of
hours, I'll ask him for an opinion...since he does this for a living he
should know

Hi,
Our WH has Piezo lighter. Never had any draft problem, not even once.

Yes, newer WH have Piezo...how does that relate to anything here?

On Thursday, January 22, 2015 at 1:41:32 PM UTC-6, philo wrote:

The chimney is maybe 20 years old and I will replace
the water heater (eventually) with a non-chimney type.

Yes, a power vent is a better idea that electric...

On 01/22/2015 02:43 PM, bob_villa wrote:
On Thursday, January 22, 2015 at 1:41:32 PM UTC-6, philo wrote:

The chimney is maybe 20 years old and I will replace
the water heater (eventually) with a non-chimney type.

Yes, a power vent is a better idea that electric...




I have a little while to think this over.

Don't use much hot water in this house.

On 1/22/2015 3:37 PM, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 22 Jan 2015 15:30:59 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I may be mistaken, but the SEER is a measure of
AC. OP Philo did say it's a 96% efficient furnace.
Philo, you getting central AC also, or just
furnace?


SEER

SEER stands for Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio.

The Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio (SEER) measures air conditioning
and heat pump cooling efficiency, which is calculated by the cooling
output for a typical cooling season divided by the total electric
energy input during the same time frame. A higher SEER rating means
greater energy efficiency.

http://www.trane.com/residential/en/resources/glossary/what-is-seer.html

OP's furnace will be SEER rated.


Well, lets see what Philo says now, or after
the install. Since he's got one which is natural
gas and has 96% efficiency, seems that the SEER
number would be for AC. Here is a chance to learn.
Quick net search:
http://www.acdoctor.com/get-educated.../whats-a-seer/


http://www.horizonservicesinc.com/re...ings-explained



-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 1/22/2015 9:50 AM, philo wrote:
On 01/22/2015 09:37 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:
philo wrote:
On 01/22/2015 09:12 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:




I PM my furnace every year and the control board is clean and dry.


The leads are pushed properly but I will double check,

The controller is sealed and solid state so it does not look like
there
is a relay that I could replace myself.


The controller is a CNT1523 and I see them on-line for $500
Hi,
If you suspect relay, there is one for HSI It is very small. I replaced
a relay once on my old furnace with one for laser printer fuser control
circuit. Small molded piece with 4 pins sticking out, rated at
like 3 Amp./120V AC rated contacts.



Many years ago I used to repair control boards so I'm sure I could
replace the relay...but...this being winter I'd hate to see what would
happen if I screwed something up and took the furnace out completely.


Plus, since it's 23 years old, more than likely something else is going
to go soon anyway...the exhaust motor is pretty discolored etc.


This is the year I was going to get a new furnace...so I'll just be a
few months early
Hi,
In winter time when the price is high, LOL! That's what happened to my
old furnace. I had to stand beside furnace and lighting it up with BBQ
lighter. Being week end I couldn't get new HSI any where in town. On
Monday I got one from a service tech who charged like 90.00 for it.
When summer came I had the furnace replaced. Good thing we have two
NG FP in the house. It was good help. Now I stock spare HSI. Hope you
find a GOOD installer.




Even though it's winter and I am sure I'll be paying more, at least it's
not a total emergency. Since the owner of the firm I called answered the
phone himself on the first ring...I'm guessing that even though it's
winter, he may not be that busy.


Good thing I have a few of those BBQ lighters here.


Now I realize I have another question.

Since I expect to be moving up to a high-efficiency furnace that won't
need the chimney...I still will have a gas water heater that /does/ use
the chimney.

I was told by a friend that without a furnace, the water heater won't
exhaust properly since the chimney has no liner.
( That did not make complete sense as the water heater and furnace would
not necessarily operate at the same time)

Do you or anyone else know if that's true?


If so, I may just end up getting an electric water heater and completely
eliminate the chimney.
Unless you are somewhere it is extremely cold the furnace did not run
all year long but the water heater did. Any problems during the time
the months when the furnace was not running? Don't think it will be a
problem unless bricks missing from flue.

On Thu, 22 Jan 2015 11:50:22 -0600, philo wrote:

On 01/22/2015 10:21 AM, trader_4 wrote:


snip


Yep went through everything...

the controller does not supply voltage to the ignitor (except if furnace
is left off for a few hours, then it sometimes works)

Don't want to risk repairing the control board, this being winter...
as the furnace does work now if I light it manually.

Local supplier does not have the control module and it would be quite
expensive. ($470 )

Since I was going to replace this 23 year old furnace this year anyway,
might as well do it now.

Many folks here recommended Goodman, so I am having the local deal stop
by and estimate the job in about 4 hours.



It it costs no more than two toilets I'll get it done.


(This summer a plumber told me it would be $2000 to replace a toilet
that I replaced myself for $80)

I replaced my old Ruud with a new Rheem. Very happy with both, they
are made by the same company. The Ruud went 27 years, only needed to
add a hard-start kit to the AC. Rheem's been in 3 years now, 93%,
two stage, variable speed blower. Really surprised at the fuel savings,
probably 40%+. I was expecting a decent improvement, but that was
more than I hoped for. I'm really a fan of the two stage concept too.
At full output, I can raise the temp 6F an hour. That lets me get
the house back up quickly after being away. It runs at low stage when
maintaining the temp, ie most of the time. Without two stage if you
want a bigger furnace to be able to heat quickly, then it's not going
to run as much as it should to move air around, etc when it's just
maintaining.


The old furnace is a two-stage and I really like that...it's not a high
efficiency type (80% I think) so I imagine the when I go to one, the
savings on gas will be appreciated.

When I put in my new furnace back in '03 the high efficiency units
were not terribly reliable - several friends and my brother had to
replace them in 4-7 years. My furnace was about 33 years old and I had
already replaced the blower motor - and since I was involved in the
addition and renovations at the house next door and they needed a new
furnace installed, I worked a deal with the HVAC contractor and had
mine done at the same time. I put in a Tempstar non condensing 2 stage
with DC variable speed blower. My gas bill didn't change at all, but
my hydro bill dropped. Last year is the first time my annual gas bill
hit $750 (furnace, water heater, and BarB Q). Had a noisy eductor fan
that I fixed by brazing the squirrel cage to the hub - other than that
it's been 100%.

Going to the high efficiency you MIGHT save 10% on your gas bill. If
you don't have the brushless dc motors, definitely go for them on the
new furnace. The electrical savings will be greater than your gas
savings going to the condensing furnace (which is all we can buy now)

On Thu, 22 Jan 2015 11:55:24 -0800, Oren wrote:


The furnace is 23 years old and 80% efficient...and I was going to
SEER is for AC - nothing to do with furnace from what I recollect.

On 01/22/2015 07:59 PM, wrote:


snip




The old furnace is a two-stage and I really like that...it's not a high
efficiency type (80% I think) so I imagine the when I go to one, the
savings on gas will be appreciated.

When I put in my new furnace back in '03 the high efficiency units
were not terribly reliable - several friends and my brother had to
replace them in 4-7 years. My furnace was about 33 years old and I had
already replaced the blower motor - and since I was involved in the
addition and renovations at the house next door and they needed a new
furnace installed, I worked a deal with the HVAC contractor and had
mine done at the same time. I put in a Tempstar non condensing 2 stage
with DC variable speed blower. My gas bill didn't change at all, but
my hydro bill dropped. Last year is the first time my annual gas bill
hit $750 (furnace, water heater, and BarB Q). Had a noisy eductor fan
that I fixed by brazing the squirrel cage to the hub - other than that
it's been 100%.

Going to the high efficiency you MIGHT save 10% on your gas bill. If
you don't have the brushless dc motors, definitely go for them on the
new furnace. The electrical savings will be greater than your gas
savings going to the condensing furnace (which is all we can buy now)




Considering that my energy bill ( combined gas and electric) can be up
to $400 a month here in Wisconsin...if I saved anywhere near 10% it
would be quite helpful

On 01/22/2015 03:48 PM, NamPhong wrote:


snip
g up to a high-efficiency furnace that won't
need the chimney...I still will have a gas water heater that /does/ use
the chimney.

I was told by a friend that without a furnace, the water heater won't
exhaust properly since the chimney has no liner.
( That did not make complete sense as the water heater and furnace would
not necessarily operate at the same time)

Do you or anyone else know if that's true?


If so, I may just end up getting an electric water heater and completely
eliminate the chimney.
Unless you are somewhere it is extremely cold the furnace did not run
all year long but the water heater did. Any problems during the time
the months when the furnace was not running? Don't think it will be a
problem unless bricks missing from flue.



That was my thinking too...the furnace does not run in the summer and of
course even in the winter, the furnace and water heater would rarely be
running at the same time. The chimney was replaced maybe 20 years ago
and is still like new. The original had been running without a liner
for 100 years when I had it replaced and it was still intact.

On Thursday, January 22, 2015 at 9:04:11 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 22 Jan 2015 11:55:24 -0800, Oren wrote:


The furnace is 23 years old and 80% efficient...and I was going to
SEER is for AC - nothing to do with furnace from what I recollect.

+1

SEER is a measure for the cooling part of an HVAC system or a heat pump.
Gas furnace without AC would not have a SEER rating. 96% efficient is,
for all practical purposes, as efficient as you can get.

On Thursday, January 22, 2015 at 8:59:58 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 22 Jan 2015 11:50:22 -0600, philo wrote:

On 01/22/2015 10:21 AM, trader_4 wrote:


snip


Yep went through everything...

the controller does not supply voltage to the ignitor (except if furnace
is left off for a few hours, then it sometimes works)

Don't want to risk repairing the control board, this being winter...
as the furnace does work now if I light it manually.

Local supplier does not have the control module and it would be quite
expensive. ($470 )

Since I was going to replace this 23 year old furnace this year anyway,
might as well do it now.

Many folks here recommended Goodman, so I am having the local deal stop
by and estimate the job in about 4 hours.



It it costs no more than two toilets I'll get it done.


(This summer a plumber told me it would be $2000 to replace a toilet
that I replaced myself for $80)

I replaced my old Ruud with a new Rheem. Very happy with both, they
are made by the same company. The Ruud went 27 years, only needed to
add a hard-start kit to the AC. Rheem's been in 3 years now, 93%,
two stage, variable speed blower. Really surprised at the fuel savings,
probably 40%+. I was expecting a decent improvement, but that was
more than I hoped for. I'm really a fan of the two stage concept too.
At full output, I can raise the temp 6F an hour. That lets me get
the house back up quickly after being away. It runs at low stage when
maintaining the temp, ie most of the time. Without two stage if you
want a bigger furnace to be able to heat quickly, then it's not going
to run as much as it should to move air around, etc when it's just
maintaining.


The old furnace is a two-stage and I really like that...it's not a high
efficiency type (80% I think) so I imagine the when I go to one, the
savings on gas will be appreciated.

When I put in my new furnace back in '03 the high efficiency units
were not terribly reliable - several friends and my brother had to
replace them in 4-7 years. My furnace was about 33 years old and I had
already replaced the blower motor - and since I was involved in the
addition and renovations at the house next door and they needed a new
furnace installed, I worked a deal with the HVAC contractor and had
mine done at the same time. I put in a Tempstar non condensing 2 stage
with DC variable speed blower. My gas bill didn't change at all, but
my hydro bill dropped. Last year is the first time my annual gas bill
hit $750 (furnace, water heater, and BarB Q). Had a noisy eductor fan
that I fixed by brazing the squirrel cage to the hub - other than that
it's been 100%.

Going to the high efficiency you MIGHT save 10% on your gas bill. If
you don't have the brushless dc motors, definitely go for them on the
new furnace. The electrical savings will be greater than your gas
savings going to the condensing furnace (which is all we can buy now)

I'm assuming by "going to high efficiency" you mean choosing a condensing
high efficiency versus an 80% non-condensing. The test data and math
says you're going to save a lot more than 10%. A non-condensing is 80% efficient. The condensing one Philo is looking at is 96% efficient.
That's a 20% difference. If you spend $1000 a year, it doesn't take long
for that to more than pay for the increased cost of the higher efficiency
furnace.

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 5:30:21 AM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 01/22/2015 07:59 PM, wrote:


snip




The old furnace is a two-stage and I really like that...it's not a high
efficiency type (80% I think) so I imagine the when I go to one, the
savings on gas will be appreciated.

When I put in my new furnace back in '03 the high efficiency units
were not terribly reliable - several friends and my brother had to
replace them in 4-7 years. My furnace was about 33 years old and I had
already replaced the blower motor - and since I was involved in the
addition and renovations at the house next door and they needed a new
furnace installed, I worked a deal with the HVAC contractor and had
mine done at the same time. I put in a Tempstar non condensing 2 stage
with DC variable speed blower. My gas bill didn't change at all, but
my hydro bill dropped. Last year is the first time my annual gas bill
hit $750 (furnace, water heater, and BarB Q). Had a noisy eductor fan
that I fixed by brazing the squirrel cage to the hub - other than that
it's been 100%.

Going to the high efficiency you MIGHT save 10% on your gas bill. If
you don't have the brushless dc motors, definitely go for them on the
new furnace. The electrical savings will be greater than your gas
savings going to the condensing furnace (which is all we can buy now)




Considering that my energy bill ( combined gas and electric) can be up
to $400 a month here in Wisconsin...if I saved anywhere near 10% it
would be quite helpful

Like I said, when I replaced my 27 year old gas furnace, my bills dropped
by 40%+. CL's math is off. Even with a brand new 80%, your 96% unit would
use ~20% less gas. Condensing makes a big difference. That steam that
goes up the chimney on a non-condensing contains a lot of heat. I know
Ed, who has a boiler has reported substantial savings too. Let us know
what you find, this will be a good test, still have winter left. But
you might want to record the meter reading when they put the new one in
so you can start measuring for a month. If you wait for the bill, you
likely won't have a full month of the new furnace.

On Thursday, January 22, 2015 at 10:51:03 AM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 01/22/2015 09:37 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:
philo wrote:
On 01/22/2015 09:12 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:




I PM my furnace every year and the control board is clean and dry.


The leads are pushed properly but I will double check,

The controller is sealed and solid state so it does not look like there
is a relay that I could replace myself.


The controller is a CNT1523 and I see them on-line for $500
Hi,
If you suspect relay, there is one for HSI It is very small. I replaced
a relay once on my old furnace with one for laser printer fuser control
circuit. Small molded piece with 4 pins sticking out, rated at
like 3 Amp./120V AC rated contacts.



Many years ago I used to repair control boards so I'm sure I could
replace the relay...but...this being winter I'd hate to see what would
happen if I screwed something up and took the furnace out completely.


Plus, since it's 23 years old, more than likely something else is going
to go soon anyway...the exhaust motor is pretty discolored etc.


This is the year I was going to get a new furnace...so I'll just be a
few months early
Hi,
In winter time when the price is high, LOL! That's what happened to my
old furnace. I had to stand beside furnace and lighting it up with BBQ
lighter. Being week end I couldn't get new HSI any where in town. On
Monday I got one from a service tech who charged like 90.00 for it.
When summer came I had the furnace replaced. Good thing we have two
NG FP in the house. It was good help. Now I stock spare HSI. Hope you
find a GOOD installer.




Even though it's winter and I am sure I'll be paying more, at least it's
not a total emergency. Since the owner of the firm I called answered the
phone himself on the first ring...I'm guessing that even though it's
winter, he may not be that busy.


Good thing I have a few of those BBQ lighters here.


Now I realize I have another question.

Since I expect to be moving up to a high-efficiency furnace that won't
need the chimney...I still will have a gas water heater that /does/ use
the chimney.

I was told by a friend that without a furnace, the water heater won't
exhaust properly since the chimney has no liner.
( That did not make complete sense as the water heater and furnace would
not necessarily operate at the same time)

Do you or anyone else know if that's true?


There are two issues. One is the chimney is supposed to be sized to
the appliances to provide the proper draft. The other, related issue,
that's a big one, is that the chimney will be too large to accomodate
the two appliances. With just
the WH, the gasses will cool too much and condense in the chimney in
winter. The condensate is acidic and over time, it will destroy the
chimney, eating away at mortar at the liner joints, etc. If the
chimney is entirely within a heated area of the building, then it's
not a problem, but few chimneys are.

When I did my furnace, I installed an aluminum liner for the WH myself.
It was easy.
I think it cost about $100 for the kit. Stainless would last longer, but
it's a lot more money. And I figured the WH probably had another 7 years
or so left in it, at that point I could revisit the issue, maybe go to
direct vent, etc.


If so, I may just end up getting an electric water heater and completely
eliminate the chimney.

IDK what the cost of electric is there, but NG is by far the lowest
cost to heat water most places. And with energy trends, it looks like
electric is more likely to rise more in the years ahead than NG. If
it were me and I was eliminating the chimney, I'd go with a direct vent.

On Thursday, January 22, 2015 at 2:41:32 PM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 01/22/2015 01:25 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
bob_villa wrote:
On Thursday, January 22, 2015 at 9:51:03 AM UTC-6, philo wrote:
I was told by a friend that without a furnace, the water heater won't
exhaust properly since the chimney has no liner.
( That did not make complete sense as the water heater and furnace would
not necessarily operate at the same time)

Do you or anyone else know if that's true?


If so, I may just end up getting an electric water heater and completely
eliminate the chimney.

I've been using mine for 20 yrs as you describe...WH is in the chimney
by itself.

Hi,
In my case they had to upgrade WH for B vent and had the chimney lined
with much smaller cap. Still WH vent thru chimney. Furnace has vent
going outside side ways with little slope towards furnace to prevent
standing water. fresh air intake is smaller pipe within the vent with
a screen. It is 2 stage one but I notice 2nd stage comes on very seldom.
Also I decided to use 16x25x5 filter replacing electronic cleaner.
Electric WH recovery rate is slower so always need bigger size one
but they seem to last longer.



The contractor told me that a liner for the water heater is recommended
simply to keep the chimney from deteriorating...

He's right.


so I am not going to
bother with that. The chimney is maybe 20 years old and I will replace
the water heater (eventually) with a non-chimney type.

So, how lucky do you feel? Those eventually type things have a
way of taking a long time or never happening and meanwhile the chimney
is slowly being damaged. What's a new chimney cost compared to a liner?

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 5:34:47 AM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 01/22/2015 03:48 PM, NamPhong wrote:


snip
g up to a high-efficiency furnace that won't
need the chimney...I still will have a gas water heater that /does/ use
the chimney.

I was told by a friend that without a furnace, the water heater won't
exhaust properly since the chimney has no liner.
( That did not make complete sense as the water heater and furnace would
not necessarily operate at the same time)

Do you or anyone else know if that's true?


If so, I may just end up getting an electric water heater and completely
eliminate the chimney.
Unless you are somewhere it is extremely cold the furnace did not run
all year long but the water heater did. Any problems during the time
the months when the furnace was not running? Don't think it will be a
problem unless bricks missing from flue.



That was my thinking too...the furnace does not run in the summer and of
course even in the winter, the furnace and water heater would rarely be
running at the same time. The chimney was replaced maybe 20 years ago
and is still like new. The original had been running without a liner
for 100 years when I had it replaced and it was still intact.

Again, the problem here is that before you had a big, honking
furnace going up a big honking chimney. When it's cold outside,
the furnace ran, keeping the chimney warm. That prevented the
gases from the furnace and the WH from condensing inside the
chimney. Now you'll have a big honking chimney and just a WH.
The WH alone can't keep the big chimney warm.
The WH gasses will cool and condense and the condensate is acidic.
It will attack mortar joints and anything similar in the chimney
and over time, destroy it. The process will start immediately.
How long it takes for real trouble to emerge probably depends on
a lot of factors. How lucky do you feel?

On 1/22/2015 10:12 AM, philo wrote:

Many folks here recommended Goodman, so I am having the local deal stop
by and estimate the job in about 4 hours.

It it costs no more than two toilets I'll get it done.


(This summer a plumber told me it would be $2000 to replace a toilet
that I replaced myself for $80)

I've had good experiences with Goodman. Simple,
reasonably well made, and they use common parts.

Unlike the proprietary Trane odd one off parts.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 1/23/2015 5:30 AM, philo wrote:

Considering that my energy bill ( combined gas and electric) can be up
to $400 a month here in Wisconsin...if I saved anywhere near 10% it
would be quite helpful

We have some kind of deregulation in PRNY, and
different energy providers are different price.
I found out by comparing that I could have
saved $103 on last month's bill by switching.
I did switch, but they can only change over at
meter reads, so I get the expensive ESCO for
another month.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 1/22/2015 9:04 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 22 Jan 2015 11:55:24 -0800, Oren wrote:


The furnace is 23 years old and 80% efficient...and I was going to
SEER is for AC - nothing to do with furnace from what I recollect.


Now, Clare. we're talking about the furnace
from Wisconsin, not the furnace from what
I recollect. (grin here)

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 1/23/2015 7:38 AM, trader_4 wrote:

So, how lucky do you feel? Those eventually type things have a
way of taking a long time or never happening and meanwhile the chimney
is slowly being damaged. What's a new chimney cost compared to a liner?


I know what you're thinking, punk. Was it
corroded out in five years, or was it six?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qekxSVVpys8
(video clip of Clint Eastwood)

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 01/23/2015 06:19 AM, trader_4 wrote:


snip

Going to the high efficiency you MIGHT save 10% on your gas bill. If
you don't have the brushless dc motors, definitely go for them on the
new furnace. The electrical savings will be greater than your gas
savings going to the condensing furnace (which is all we can buy now)




Considering that my energy bill ( combined gas and electric) can be up
to $400 a month here in Wisconsin...if I saved anywhere near 10% it
would be quite helpful

Like I said, when I replaced my 27 year old gas furnace, my bills dropped
by 40%+. CL's math is off. Even with a brand new 80%, your 96% unit would
use ~20% less gas. Condensing makes a big difference. That steam that
goes up the chimney on a non-condensing contains a lot of heat. I know
Ed, who has a boiler has reported substantial savings too. Let us know
what you find, this will be a good test, still have winter left. But
you might want to record the meter reading when they put the new one in
so you can start measuring for a month. If you wait for the bill, you
likely won't have a full month of the new furnace.




Nothing around here is going to be too scientific because my wife is
convinced that since the furnace is higher efficiency , she can turn the
heat up higher.

I can get pretty good data from my energy bill as they compare this
years usage to last and plot calculate the average monthly temperature

On 01/23/2015 06:13 AM, trader_4 wrote:
X

snip


I'm assuming by "going to high efficiency" you mean choosing a condensing
high efficiency versus an 80% non-condensing. The test data and math
says you're going to save a lot more than 10%. A non-condensing is 80% efficient. The condensing one Philo is looking at is 96% efficient.
That's a 20% difference. If you spend $1000 a year, it doesn't take long
for that to more than pay for the increased cost of the higher efficiency
furnace.




Yep, and the energy bills here are way more than $1000 a year...(gas and
electric combined) was $2500 last year.

Even if only a 10% savings, the furnace will soon pay for itself but it
should be more I hope.


Still amazed that it was only a few hundred dollars more than what I
paid 23 years ago.

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 4:30:21 AM UTC-6, philo wrote:

Considering that my energy bill ( combined gas and electric) can be up
to $400 a month here in Wisconsin...if I saved anywhere near 10% it
would be quite helpful

Where are you? I'm East of Stevens Point?

On 01/23/2015 06:38 AM, trader_4 wrote:
X


The contractor told me that a liner for the water heater is recommended
simply to keep the chimney from deteriorating...

He's right.


so I am not going to
bother with that. The chimney is maybe 20 years old and I will replace
the water heater (eventually) with a non-chimney type.

So, how lucky do you feel? Those eventually type things have a
way of taking a long time or never happening and meanwhile the chimney
is slowly being damaged. What's a new chimney cost compared to a liner?




Here is my thinking:

The original chimney lasted over 100 years.
(and I had it replaced as a precaution as it was only mildly deteriorated)

The one now in place is about 20 years old and still like new.

Within the next five years or so I'll be due for a new water
heater...which will be a non-chimney type.

Next project will be a new roof and at that time the chimney will be
removed entirely.

On 01/23/2015 06:47 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On

That was my thinking too...the furnace does not run in the summer and of
course even in the winter, the furnace and water heater would rarely be
running at the same time. The chimney was replaced maybe 20 years ago
and is still like new. The original had been running without a liner
for 100 years when I had it replaced and it was still intact.

Again, the problem here is that before you had a big, honking
furnace going up a big honking chimney. When it's cold outside,
the furnace ran, keeping the chimney warm. That prevented the
gases from the furnace and the WH from condensing inside the
chimney. Now you'll have a big honking chimney and just a WH.
The WH alone can't keep the big chimney warm.
The WH gasses will cool and condense and the condensate is acidic.
It will attack mortar joints and anything similar in the chimney
and over time, destroy it. The process will start immediately.
How long it takes for real trouble to emerge probably depends on
a lot of factors. How lucky do you feel?



Very lucky since the chimney will be removed entirely within the next
five years or so (see my other reply)

On 01/23/2015 06:33 AM, trader_4 wrote:
X



snip
end up getting an electric water heater and completely
eliminate the chimney.

IDK what the cost of electric is there, but NG is by far the lowest
cost to heat water most places. And with energy trends, it looks like
electric is more likely to rise more in the years ahead than NG. If
it were me and I was eliminating the chimney, I'd go with a direct vent.




My wife and I use very little hot water so this will not be terribly
critical but will strongly consider the direct vent gas WH


No dishwasher and always do cold water laundry.
Since I'm bald no long time in the shower washing my hair.

So basically if she can take a couple of showers a week that's about all
the hot water use we need.

thank you

On 01/23/2015 08:53 AM, bob_villa wrote:
On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 4:30:21 AM UTC-6, philo wrote:

Considering that my energy bill ( combined gas and electric) can be up
to $400 a month here in Wisconsin...if I saved anywhere near 10% it
would be quite helpful

Where are you? I'm East of Stevens Point?




Right in Milwaukee not too far from the lake.

Keeps things a bit cooler in the summer

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 10:02:30 AM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 01/23/2015 06:38 AM, trader_4 wrote:
X


The contractor told me that a liner for the water heater is recommended
simply to keep the chimney from deteriorating...

He's right.


so I am not going to
bother with that. The chimney is maybe 20 years old and I will replace
the water heater (eventually) with a non-chimney type.

So, how lucky do you feel? Those eventually type things have a
way of taking a long time or never happening and meanwhile the chimney
is slowly being damaged. What's a new chimney cost compared to a liner?




Here is my thinking:

The original chimney lasted over 100 years.
(and I had it replaced as a precaution as it was only mildly deteriorated)

The one now in place is about 20 years old and still like new.

Within the next five years or so I'll be due for a new water
heater...which will be a non-chimney type.

Next project will be a new roof and at that time the chimney will be
removed entirely.

Given that plan and timeline my first thought is you're probably OK,
because it's more of a long term thing. But then who knows.....

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discuss...iner-needed-ct

philo writes:
I've got a Trane XV-80 furnace that just tonight quit.

When starting the ignitor /sometimes/ glows but most of the time does
not...and either way the furnace does not light.

I can light it manually with a match and it will run normally.

The ignigtor appears to be OK...no breaks and the resistance is 130 ohms

What voltage do they operate at and is it AC or DC?



Looks like it must be the controller itself and I know that is going to
be expensive.


I have an XE-80 (iirc), and I replaced the controller a
decade ago after it was fried by a PG&E voltage spike. PG&E
paid for it, I think it was about a c-note. I picked the
new controller up at APED in san jose. Note that there are
two controller models available; make sure you get the right
model for your ignition subsystem; one uses 80VAC for the
hot surface igniter, the other uses line voltage. If you
get the wrong one, you'll be replacing igniters once a year.

On 01/23/2015 09:16 AM, trader_4 wrote:




Here is my thinking:

The original chimney lasted over 100 years.
(and I had it replaced as a precaution as it was only mildly deteriorated)

The one now in place is about 20 years old and still like new.

Within the next five years or so I'll be due for a new water
heater...which will be a non-chimney type.

Next project will be a new roof and at that time the chimney will be
removed entirely.

Given that plan and timeline my first thought is you're probably OK,
because it's more of a long term thing. But then who knows.....

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discuss...iner-needed-ct




Ironically, I have had a chimney "sweating" problem for many years in
the winter but I finally got it solved this year...so I am not too
concerned about running the water heater alone.

If there is a problem however, I'll just move my projected time frame
for water heater replacement up a few years.

A vent-free water heater would only cost me a few dollars more than
having a chimney liner put in...and my roof is too steep for me to
consider doing it myself. Never went up there even when I was younger.

On 01/23/2015 09:33 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
philo writes:
I've got a Trane XV-80 furnace that just tonight quit.

When starting the ignitor /sometimes/ glows but most of the time does
not...and either way the furnace does not light.

I can light it manually with a match and it will run normally.

The ignigtor appears to be OK...no breaks and the resistance is 130 ohms

What voltage do they operate at and is it AC or DC?



Looks like it must be the controller itself and I know that is going to
be expensive.


I have an XE-80 (iirc), and I replaced the controller a
decade ago after it was fried by a PG&E voltage spike. PG&E
paid for it, I think it was about a c-note. I picked the
new controller up at APED in san jose. Note that there are
two controller models available; make sure you get the right
model for your ignition subsystem; one uses 80VAC for the
hot surface igniter, the other uses line voltage. If you
get the wrong one, you'll be replacing igniters once a year.




Moot point as the new furnace will be in on Monday...
but the control unit I priced out was the exact one for my furnace.

It was not in stock locally but for somewhere around $500+ total I could
have had one shipped in "next day air".

Since I was going to replace the furnace this year anyway, I did not see
the point.

I will have to start it manually with a BBQ lighter for the next few
days...although once or twice it has started on it's own .

On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 04:05:03 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, January 22, 2015 at 9:04:11 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 22 Jan 2015 11:55:24 -0800, Oren wrote:


The furnace is 23 years old and 80% efficient...and I was going to
SEER is for AC - nothing to do with furnace from what I recollect.

+1

SEER is a measure for the cooling part of an HVAC system or a heat pump.
Gas furnace without AC would not have a SEER rating. 96% efficient is,
for all practical purposes, as efficient as you can get.

I stand corrected...

On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 07:42:00 -0600, philo wrote:

On 01/23/2015 06:13 AM, trader_4 wrote:
X

snip


I'm assuming by "going to high efficiency" you mean choosing a condensing
high efficiency versus an 80% non-condensing. The test data and math
says you're going to save a lot more than 10%. A non-condensing is 80% efficient. The condensing one Philo is looking at is 96% efficient.
That's a 20% difference. If you spend $1000 a year, it doesn't take long
for that to more than pay for the increased cost of the higher efficiency
furnace.




Yep, and the energy bills here are way more than $1000 a year...(gas and
electric combined) was $2500 last year.

Even if only a 10% savings, the furnace will soon pay for itself but it
should be more I hope.


Still amazed that it was only a few hundred dollars more than what I
paid 23 years ago.
Don't be surprised if this new one needs replacement in much ess
than 23 years, either!!!

On 01/23/2015 12:25 PM, wrote:

Yep, and the energy bills here are way more than $1000 a year...(gas and
electric combined) was $2500 last year.

Even if only a 10% savings, the furnace will soon pay for itself but it
should be more I hope.


Still amazed that it was only a few hundred dollars more than what I
paid 23 years ago.
Don't be surprised if this new one needs replacement in much ess
than 23 years, either!!!




No way.

I got the recommendation for Goodman right on this news group...
and it carries a ten year warranty.


The lesson I learned though is not to wait until it breaks down to get a
new one. From now on I'm just going to get a new furnace every 20 years.
I suppose after about the 6th or 7th time, it'll be getting a bit
tedious though.


But on the serious side my wife is probably going to talk me into
selling the house in six years and have us move to a warmer climate.