Hi All,

Have a farmer for a customer with a large water
tank for watering his fields. He would like some
telemetry as to its state: full, half full, etc..
(Currently he uses the "There She Blows!" method
to see when the tank is full.)

Anyone have any suggestions? Be nice if it worked
over Modbus/TCP.

Many thanks,
-T

Todd wrote, on Wed, 29 Oct 2014 11:06:40 -0700:

Have a farmer for a customer with a large water
tank for watering his fields. He would like some
telemetry as to its state: full, half full, etc..
(Currently he uses the "There She Blows!" method
to see when the tank is full.)

Anyone have any suggestions? Be nice if it worked
over Modbus/TCP.

I would ask in Alt.Internet.Wireless as it's actually
pretty easy to put a webcam there, fed by solar, which
then transmits the water running into the inside of
your water tank, real time.

In fact, we have that set up for ourselves in some
of our neighbor's tanks. You can transmit for 20
miles if you have line of sight.

On 10/29/2014 11:24 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 11:06:40 -0700, Todd wrote:

Hi All,

Have a farmer for a customer with a large water
tank for watering his fields. He would like some
telemetry as to its state: full, half full, etc..
(Currently he uses the "There She Blows!" method
to see when the tank is full.)

Anyone have any suggestions? Be nice if it worked
over Modbus/TCP.

Many thanks,
-T

How far away?

He is within Wireless range

Why would he need the complication of TCP.

It supports Modbus with supports his Red Lion controller
http://new.redlion.net/hmi-operator-panels/g3-series

He wants to show tank level next to his pump controls.
Eventually he wants to have the pump automatically turn
off through the Red Lion controller.

I am thinking 2 wires, a variable resistor at the tank and a gauge
that responds to it, similar to the gas gauge in a car.
That would not require any power at the tank at all.

Like a huge toilet float?

On 10/29/2014 11:29 AM, Danny D. wrote:
Todd wrote, on Wed, 29 Oct 2014 11:06:40 -0700:

Have a farmer for a customer with a large water
tank for watering his fields. He would like some
telemetry as to its state: full, half full, etc..
(Currently he uses the "There She Blows!" method
to see when the tank is full.)

Anyone have any suggestions? Be nice if it worked
over Modbus/TCP.

I would ask in Alt.Internet.Wireless

Just posted over there on your recommendation.
Thank you!

as it's actually
pretty easy to put a webcam there, fed by solar, which
then transmits the water running into the inside of
your water tank, real time.

In fact, we have that set up for ourselves in some
of our neighbor's tanks. You can transmit for 20
miles if you have line of sight.

He has an extensive video camera installation.
We could added it as one field on his display system.

Be cool to get telemetry though.

How about two weights hanging from a pully. The floating weight weighs more than the weight that hangs loose in the air. That weight that hangs in the air is spray painted fluorescent red.

The fuller the tank, the lower the red weight will be to the ground.

Telemetery is provided by an inexpensive pair of binoculars.

On 10/29/2014 12:24 PM, nestork wrote:
Todd;3302115 Wrote:

Have a farmer for a customer with a large water
tank for watering his fields. He would like some
telemetry as to its state: full, half full, etc..
(Currently he uses the "There She Blows!" method
to see when the tank is full.)


How about two weights hanging from a pully. The floating weight weighs
more than the weight that hangs loose in the air. That weight that
hangs in the air is spray painted fluorescent red.

The fuller the tank, the lower the red weight will be to the ground.

Telemetery is provided by an inexpensive pair of binoculars.


Made me laugh. Thank you!

Right now, telemetry is water spraying out the top of the tank.
And you can see it all over the farm. No binoculars needed!

Todd posted for all of us...



Hi All,

Have a farmer for a customer with a large water
tank for watering his fields. He would like some
telemetry as to its state: full, half full, etc..
(Currently he uses the "There She Blows!" method
to see when the tank is full.)

Anyone have any suggestions? Be nice if it worked
over Modbus/TCP.

Many thanks,
-T

Automation Direct should fix you up.

--
Tekkie

"Todd" wrote in message
...
Hi All,

Have a farmer for a customer with a large water
tank for watering his fields. He would like some
telemetry as to its state: full, half full, etc..
(Currently he uses the "There She Blows!" method
to see when the tank is full.)

Anyone have any suggestions? Be nice if it worked
over Modbus/TCP.


Depends on how much he wants to spend. If the tank is open at the top he
can use a pressure transducer very easy. Here is one that operates over the
Modbus.
http://www2.emersonprocess.com/sitea...-0100-4738.pdf

Rosemont also makes single point switches. For that he will have to put a
hole in the tank at the levels he wants the switch to activate.

Drexelbrook makes some level measuring transmitters that operate on a 4 to
20 ma loop type circuit and other devices.

http://www.drexelbrook.com/Continuou...versal-IV.aspx


All depends on how much he wants to spend. He could put one of the point
level switches near the top and have it turn off the pump and anoter near
the bottom to turn the pump on.




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On 10/29/2014 01:33 PM, Tekkie® wrote:
Automation Direct


AWESOME!!! Exactly what I needed. Thank you!

On 10/29/2014 11:44 AM, Todd wrote:
On 10/29/2014 11:29 AM, Danny D. wrote:
Todd wrote, on Wed, 29 Oct 2014 11:06:40 -0700:

Have a farmer for a customer with a large water
tank for watering his fields. He would like some
telemetry as to its state: full, half full, etc..
(Currently he uses the "There She Blows!" method
to see when the tank is full.)

Anyone have any suggestions? Be nice if it worked
over Modbus/TCP.

I would ask in Alt.Internet.Wireless

Just posted over there on your recommendation.
Thank you!

as it's actually
pretty easy to put a webcam there, fed by solar, which
then transmits the water running into the inside of
your water tank, real time.

In fact, we have that set up for ourselves in some
of our neighbor's tanks. You can transmit for 20
miles if you have line of sight.

He has an extensive video camera installation.
We could added it as one field on his display system.

Be cool to get telemetry though.


A friend answered this over on the home repair group

http://www.automationdirect.com

Todd wrote, on Wed, 29 Oct 2014 13:33:15 -0700:

Right now, telemetry is water spraying out the top of the tank.
And you can see it all over the farm. No binoculars needed!

Out here, we have a simple float that turn off the water *before*
the tank is full:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/4/3876/1...4a418e67_b.jpg

On the outside, we have a "visual indicator" of the water level:
https://c3.staticflickr.com/3/2914/1...a36cde37_b.jpg

Then, we have floating weights, that turn off the water before the
tank runs empty, so that there is always 1/3 of a tank for fire.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5480/1...0794c170_c.jpg

The whole thing is controlled by a set of pump controllers:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/4/3906/1...7712c1c3_b.jpg

Then, there is the booster pump to boost the pressure in the house:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/4/3890/1...7a71d615_b.jpg

So, the control is well known (since all tanks have them).
What you need to concentrate on is the telemetry.

On 10/29/2014 03:50 PM, Danny D. wrote:
Todd wrote, on Wed, 29 Oct 2014 13:33:15 -0700:

Right now, telemetry is water spraying out the top of the tank.
And you can see it all over the farm. No binoculars needed!

Out here, we have a simple float that turn off the water *before*
the tank is full:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/4/3876/1...4a418e67_b.jpg

On the outside, we have a "visual indicator" of the water level:
https://c3.staticflickr.com/3/2914/1...a36cde37_b.jpg

Then, we have floating weights, that turn off the water before the
tank runs empty, so that there is always 1/3 of a tank for fire.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5480/1...0794c170_c.jpg

The whole thing is controlled by a set of pump controllers:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/4/3906/1...7712c1c3_b.jpg

Then, there is the booster pump to boost the pressure in the house:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/4/3890/1...7a71d615_b.jpg

So, the control is well known (since all tanks have them).
What you need to concentrate on is the telemetry.


Thank you!

Snow is forecast for us on Saturday and Saturday night.
If there is enough power to overcome our Rain Shadow
Effect, you should get drenched!

Todd wrote, on Wed, 29 Oct 2014 16:19:20 -0700:

Snow is forecast for us on Saturday and Saturday night.
If there is enough power to overcome our Rain Shadow
Effect, you should get drenched!

We could use rain, since we're in California, where they (reputedly)
fine you $500 for washing your car with a hose without a nozzle.

Poor grandkids though. I don't mind getting wet, but, they're
gonna get it on Friday.

For your telemetry, this is one option (albeit pricey):
Water tank sensing telemetry
http://community.ubnt.com/t5/Busines.../523469#M32229

Ralph Mowery wrote, on Wed, 29 Oct 2014 18:06:42 -0400:

If the tank is open at the top he
can use a pressure transducer very easy.

You could even put a pressure sensor at the bottom, since a 10 foot tall
water tank would have about 10 psi (roughly), I think.

gfretwell wrote, on Wed, 29 Oct 2014 21:19:54 -0400:

You could even put a pressure sensor at the bottom, since a 10 foot tall
water tank would have about 10 psi (roughly), I think.

Closer to 5

Thanks for the clarification. That gives us a range for the pressure mat
from 0 psi (empty) to around 5 psi (full).

I assume the output from the pressure mat would be an electrical signal
(resistance?) which the OP could then transmit to his computer.

I'd suggest, for example, the Ubiquiti Loco M900's or Nanosation2 M2's
(and others) to transmit the data.

Here are the datasheets:
http://dl.ubnt.com/datasheets/nanost...nsm_ds_web.pdf
http://dl.ubnt.com/ns2_datasheet.pdf

And, I'd suggest a tiny Linux-driven TI microcomputer such as the
Launchpad.

But, what pressure sensor mat would we suggest?

Actually, closer to 4.33 psig.

A cubic foot of water weighs 62.4 pounds, which is a good number to remember.

That 62.4 pounds exerts a pressure on the bottom surface of the cubic foot of :

62.4 pounds divided by 144 square inches, or 0.43333 pounds per square inch.

So the pressure gradient of water is 0.43333 pounds per square inch per foot of water column height, or 0.4333 psi/foot.

The pressure at the bottom of a 10 foot tall tank of water would be 4.333 psi gauge.

"Todd" wrote in message ...
On 10/29/2014 01:33 PM, Tekkie® wrote:
Automation Direct


AWESOME!!! Exactly what I needed. Thank you!

Check out Omron, too. Years ago.... they were less cost than AutomationDirect and simpler to program for something like this.

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message ...

"Todd" wrote in message
...
Hi All,

Have a farmer for a customer with a large water
tank for watering his fields. He would like some
telemetry as to its state: full, half full, etc..
(Currently he uses the "There She Blows!" method
to see when the tank is full.)

Anyone have any suggestions? Be nice if it worked
over Modbus/TCP.


Depends on how much he wants to spend. If the tank is open at the top he
can use a pressure transducer very easy. Here is one that operates over the
Modbus.
http://www2.emersonprocess.com/sitea...-0100-4738.pdf

Rosemont also makes single point switches. For that he will have to put a
hole in the tank at the levels he wants the switch to activate.

Drexelbrook makes some level measuring transmitters that operate on a 4 to
20 ma loop type circuit and other devices.

http://www.drexelbrook.com/Continuou...versal-IV.aspx


All depends on how much he wants to spend. He could put one of the point
level switches near the top and have it turn off the pump and anoter near
the bottom to turn the pump on.

I have used all brands of control equip and always steer clear of Emerson because everything is proprietary.

"nestork" wrote in message
...

Actually, closer to 4.33 psig.

A cubic foot of water weighs 62.4 pounds, which is a good number to
remember.

That 62.4 pounds exerts a pressure on the bottom surface of the cubic
foot of :

62.4 pounds divided by 144 square inches, or 0.43333 pounds per square
inch.

So the pressure gradient of water is 0.43333 pounds per square inch per
foot of water column height, or 0.4333 psi/foot.

The pressure at the bottom of a 10 foot tall tank of water would be
4.333 psi gauge.


Where I worked we used Rosemont transmitters for the most part. We could
program them up for a wide range. Best thing was if you only knew a rough
idea of how much pressure it would take, we could empty the tank or set it
to the low level limit and press a button, then fill it to where we wanted
to call a full level and press another button and it was then calibrated to
those limits.



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run a hose into the tank and use an air pressure sensing switch located above the level of the water like in a washing machine.

The hose has air in it, not water.


Mark

On 10/29/2014 05:36 PM, Danny D. wrote:
Todd wrote, on Wed, 29 Oct 2014 16:19:20 -0700:

Snow is forecast for us on Saturday and Saturday night.
If there is enough power to overcome our Rain Shadow
Effect, you should get drenched!

We could use rain, since we're in California, where they (reputedly)
fine you $500 for washing your car with a hose without a nozzle.

Poor grandkids though. I don't mind getting wet, but, they're
gonna get it on Friday.

For your telemetry, this is one option (albeit pricey):
Water tank sensing telemetry
http://community.ubnt.com/t5/Busines.../523469#M32229


Thank you!

Be sure to tell the grandkids what life was like before
running water, microwaves, flush toilets ... Make
sure you "embellish" a bit. It is no fun otherwise.
"Why, if we wanted a drink of water, we'd have to stand
out in the rain and open out mouths!" Probably won't buy
it, but fun anyway. But, will give them an excuse to
stand out in the rain.

On 10/29/2014 10:32 PM, Sasquatch Jones wrote:
"Todd" wrote in message ...
On 10/29/2014 01:33 PM, Tekkie® wrote:
Automation Direct


AWESOME!!! Exactly what I needed. Thank you!

Check out Omron, too. Years ago.... they were less cost than AutomationDirect and simpler to program for something like this.


Thank you!

On 10/29/2014 10:34 PM, Sasquatch Jones wrote:
I have used all brands of control equip and always steer clear of Emerson because everything is proprietary.

Thank you!

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 11:18:49 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 07:13:17 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

run a hose into the tank and use an air pressure sensing switch located above the level of the water like in a washing machine.

The hose has air in it, not water.


Mark

That works a lot better in a washing machine than it would in a tank
of water if the water never drops below the end of the hose (like it
does a few times a cycle in a washer)
Eventually the trapped air in the hose is absorbed in the water and
the water level rises in the hose, giving you a low reading.
It would work if the hose was sealed and you had something like an ear
syringe for a bladder in the bottom of the tank.
It is better just to use a water proof pressure sensor at the bottom,

Good point.
thanks for the polite comment
Mark

On Wed, 29 Oct 2014 18:29:52 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

In fact, we have that set up for ourselves in some
of our neighbor's tanks. You can transmit for 20
miles if you have line of sight.

The local water district uses several methods. All tanks have a float
and a rope pully, so that anyone can walk up to the tank and see the
water level. They are also part of a SCADA (supervisory control and
data aquisition) system that monitors the entire water system and
displays operating data on a cool looking flow chart display. For a
given tank, it's not just the water level that is monitored. As I
vaguely recall from memory, there's the flow rates (both in and out),
water acidity (for chlorination), current (for cathodic protection)
and pump monitoring. Control signals also go the other direction, for
turning things on and off. The data is sent back to the district
offices via a mix of packet radio, land lines, and cellular data. I
suspect the OP doesn't need or want this level of complexity.

Start with an ultrasonic level meter:
https://www.google.com/#q=ultrasonic+water+tank+level+meter
Plenty to choose from and fairly cheap. They usually have an RS-232
or RS-485 output which can be sent to a packet radio transmitter. I
can't offer specific radio or data collection system suggestions
without knowing something about the location and available resources.

Mo
https://www.google.com/search?q=water+tank+level+telemetry+system

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Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558