On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 9:33:57 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 10/01/2014 7:47 AM, trader_4 wrote:

...



... since these are both AC and battery powered, why does the battery

go out in a year, just as fast or faster than battery only powered ones?

...



'Cuz they're a poorly designed (read "cheap to build") and don't

actually cut the battery (completely) out when A/C is on nor use

rechargeable batteries would be the likely cause...



I've not looked, but I'd think such a unit would be readily available

altho undoubtedly at a somewhat higher price point. There are just the

minimal one each floor of the old battery-powered type here as nothing's

been modified since all the recent Code changes. So, that's just three

and the once't a year deal isn't so bad as there are no cathedral

ceilings, etc., ...



--

I think that a unit that used a LSD NiMH 9v battery and integral charger would be a great idea. (such a thing exists, I use them, Tenergy and Maha at least make them...) however the higher price would likely drive off contractors from using them.

I am not certain if that would violate code as currently written, I'd have to research that. Something like that would likely have to go through a NRTL testing/approval process...

nate

On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 1:45:22 PM UTC-4, N8N wrote:
On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 9:33:57 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:

On 10/01/2014 7:47 AM, trader_4 wrote:



...







... since these are both AC and battery powered, why does the battery



go out in a year, just as fast or faster than battery only powered ones?



...







'Cuz they're a poorly designed (read "cheap to build") and don't



actually cut the battery (completely) out when A/C is on nor use



rechargeable batteries would be the likely cause...







I've not looked, but I'd think such a unit would be readily available



altho undoubtedly at a somewhat higher price point. There are just the



minimal one each floor of the old battery-powered type here as nothing's



been modified since all the recent Code changes. So, that's just three



and the once't a year deal isn't so bad as there are no cathedral



ceilings, etc., ...







--



I think that a unit that used a LSD NiMH 9v battery and integral charger would be a great idea. (such a thing exists, I use them, Tenergy and Maha at least make them...) however the higher price would likely drive off contractors from using them.



I am not certain if that would violate code as currently written, I'd have to research that. Something like that would likely have to go through a NRTL testing/approval process...



nate

Good to see that apparently someone has a better solution. Curious though,
if they are selling them and you are using them, why would you think it wouldn't
meet code? IDK what the code says exactly, but I'd expect it to say that you
have to have AC+battery, but not be so specific to rule out rechargeable.

On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 1:48:46 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 1:45:22 PM UTC-4, N8N wrote:

On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 9:33:57 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:



On 10/01/2014 7:47 AM, trader_4 wrote:







...















... since these are both AC and battery powered, why does the battery







go out in a year, just as fast or faster than battery only powered ones?







...















'Cuz they're a poorly designed (read "cheap to build") and don't







actually cut the battery (completely) out when A/C is on nor use







rechargeable batteries would be the likely cause...















I've not looked, but I'd think such a unit would be readily available







altho undoubtedly at a somewhat higher price point. There are just the







minimal one each floor of the old battery-powered type here as nothing's







been modified since all the recent Code changes. So, that's just three







and the once't a year deal isn't so bad as there are no cathedral







ceilings, etc., ...















--







I think that a unit that used a LSD NiMH 9v battery and integral charger would be a great idea. (such a thing exists, I use them, Tenergy and Maha at least make them...) however the higher price would likely drive off contractors from using them.







I am not certain if that would violate code as currently written, I'd have to research that. Something like that would likely have to go through a NRTL testing/approval process...







nate



Good to see that apparently someone has a better solution. Curious though,

if they are selling them and you are using them, why would you think it wouldn't

meet code? IDK what the code says exactly, but I'd expect it to say that you

have to have AC+battery, but not be so specific to rule out rechargeable.

I meant that I have used LSD NiMHs, but not in smoke detectors, not that there were any detectors on the market that were designed to use them. It would seem to be a nice maintenance-free solution that would last 5-6 years if a detector were specifically designed to utilize and float charge the NiMHs. Or why even limit to that? Li-Ions would be a nominal 3.7V so two of those (16340? or even smaller?) would be 7.4V or thereabouts which hopefully would be enough to run a smoke detector if designed around it.

In the meantime, does Energizer still make a lithium 9V battery? That would be my solution for difficult to maintain smoke detectors; those batteries have higher capacity and longer shelf life than alkalines. At a higher cost, of course...

nate

On 10/01/2014 12:28 PM, trader_4 wrote:
....

The point is there is no good reason to be drawing down the battery at
all. And why not put in rechargeables? Duh! That's what they do in
those other examples.

The answer as outlined above is more than likely "initial cost".

Again, if these bug you so much for that reason, the obvious alternative
is to do some research and replace them with ones which do have an
extended battery life and/or rechargeables.

Different device/design but the outdoor unit on the local weather
station has started indicating "low battery" at night...it's got a solar
charger and I replaced the initial battery just a month ago but it
showed the missive the other night again already. I suppose the solar
cell is now starting to fail/losing its "oomph" after 2-3 yr in the SW
KS sun...

--

"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 11:58:24 AM UTC-4, Pico Rico wrote:
"trader_4" wrote in message

...

On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 11:12:28 AM UTC-4, Pico Rico wrote:

"trader_4" wrote in message



...



On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 9:33:57 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:



On 10/01/2014 7:47 AM, trader_4 wrote:







...















... since these are both AC and battery powered, why does the

battery







go out in a year, just as fast or faster than battery only
powered



ones?







...















'Cuz they're a poorly designed (read "cheap to build") and don't







actually cut the battery (completely) out when A/C is on nor use







rechargeable batteries would be the likely cause...















I've not looked, but I'd think such a unit would be readily
available







altho undoubtedly at a somewhat higher price point. There are just

the







minimal one each floor of the old battery-powered type here as

nothing's







been modified since all the recent Code changes. So, that's just

three







and the once't a year deal isn't so bad as there are no cathedral







ceilings, etc., ...















--







A diode that costs maybe 10 cents has a big impact on price?







think of the voltage drop, too.



I don't see .6V diode drop from a 9V battery being a design challenge.

The electronics is going to work on 5V or 3V anyway.



but the battery will "die" sooner.

How so? The battery is rated at X amphours. Whether it delivers it
through
a diode or not is mostly insignificant. Only a very small amount of power
is
lost in the diode.

The voltage without a diode can drop ..65v further and still power the unit.

On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 1:56:26 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 10/01/2014 12:28 PM, trader_4 wrote:

...



The point is there is no good reason to be drawing down the battery at

all. And why not put in rechargeables? Duh! That's what they do in

those other examples.



The answer as outlined above is more than likely "initial cost".



Yes, that explains why they didn't use rechargeables. It doesn't
explain why they didn't use a 10 cent diode so that the alkaline
battery is just there as standby and would last for years.




Again, if these bug you so much for that reason, the obvious alternative

is to do some research and replace them with ones which do have an

extended battery life and/or rechargeables.



I agree, that's a possible solution. The comment was directed at why
they didn't put in a 10c diode so I would not have to do that.




Different device/design but the outdoor unit on the local weather

station has started indicating "low battery" at night...it's got a solar

charger and I replaced the initial battery just a month ago but it

showed the missive the other night again already. I suppose the solar

cell is now starting to fail/losing its "oomph" after 2-3 yr in the SW

KS sun...



--

Does it have AC too?

On 10/01/2014 1:04 PM, trader_4 wrote:
....

Yes, that explains why they didn't use rechargeables. It doesn't
explain why they didn't use a 10 cent diode so that the alkaline
battery is just there as standby and would last for years.

I still think it more than likely does...
....

I agree, that's a possible solution. The comment was directed at why
they didn't put in a 10c diode so I would not have to do that.

See above...


Different device/design but the outdoor unit on the local weather
station has started indicating "low battery" at night...it's got a solar
charger and I replaced the initial battery just a month ago but it
showed the missive the other night again already. I suppose the solar
cell is now starting to fail/losing its "oomph" after 2-3 yr in the SW
KS sun...
....

Does it have AC too?

Not the external station, no. The base in-house display unit does and
it _does_ have pretty good battery life--seems I've changed them out
once, maybe. But, this is a much higher-priced device (Davis
Instruments VantageVUE) so the few pennies kinds of cost-cutting on
mass-produced consumer devices isn't _quite_ so vicious.

--

On 10/01/2014 1:22 PM, dpb wrote:
....

I agree, that's a possible solution. The comment was directed at why
they didn't put in a 10c diode so I would not have to do that.

See above...
....

Actually, more precisely, I suspect the cut got made at the earlier
"feature selection" level of what were/were not expected capabilities to
meet the target market niche/pricing level for the device rather than
being pared out on an individual component-level culling (altho that
certainly occurs as well as the price/specific component alternative
vendors/etc. evaluations that occur).

--

On 10/1/2014 2:04 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 1:56:26 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 10/01/2014 12:28 PM, trader_4 wrote:

...



The point is there is no good reason to be drawing down the battery at

all. And why not put in rechargeables? Duh! That's what they do in

those other examples.



The answer as outlined above is more than likely "initial cost".



Yes, that explains why they didn't use rechargeables. It doesn't
explain why they didn't use a 10 cent diode so that the alkaline
battery is just there as standby and would last for years.




Again, if these bug you so much for that reason, the obvious alternative

is to do some research and replace them with ones which do have an

extended battery life and/or rechargeables.



I agree, that's a possible solution. The comment was directed at why
they didn't put in a 10c diode so I would not have to do that.




Different device/design but the outdoor unit on the local weather

station has started indicating "low battery" at night...it's got a solar

charger and I replaced the initial battery just a month ago but it

showed the missive the other night again already. I suppose the solar

cell is now starting to fail/losing its "oomph" after 2-3 yr in the SW

KS sun...



--

Does it have AC too?
Path: not-for-mail
From: "Pico Rico"
Newsgroups: alt.home.repair
Subject: Ionization Smoke Detector In Toddler's Room: How Safe ?
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2014 11:02:54 -0700
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"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 11:58:24 AM UTC-4, Pico Rico wrote:
"trader_4" wrote in message

...

On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 11:12:28 AM UTC-4, Pico Rico wrote:

"trader_4" wrote in message



...



On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 9:33:57 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:



On 10/01/2014 7:47 AM, trader_4 wrote:







...















... since these are both AC and battery powered, why does the

battery







go out in a year, just as fast or faster than battery only
powered



ones?







...















'Cuz they're a poorly designed (read "cheap to build") and don't







actually cut the battery (completely) out when A/C is on nor use







rechargeable batteries would be the likely cause...















I've not looked, but I'd think such a unit would be readily
available







altho undoubtedly at a somewhat higher price point. There are just

the







minimal one each floor of the old battery-powered type here as

nothing's







been modified since all the recent Code changes. So, that's just

three







and the once't a year deal isn't so bad as there are no cathedral







ceilings, etc., ...















--







A diode that costs maybe 10 cents has a big impact on price?







think of the voltage drop, too.



I don't see .6V diode drop from a 9V battery being a design challenge.

The electronics is going to work on 5V or 3V anyway.



but the battery will "die" sooner.

How so? The battery is rated at X amphours. Whether it delivers it
through
a diode or not is mostly insignificant. Only a very small amount of power
is
lost in the diode.

The voltage without a diode can drop ..65v further and still power the unit.


Please trim text. 328 lines is a bit much for your two line reply.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 3:04:47 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 10/01/2014 1:22 PM, dpb wrote:

...



I agree, that's a possible solution. The comment was directed at why

they didn't put in a 10c diode so I would not have to do that.



See above...

...



Actually, more precisely, I suspect the cut got made at the earlier

"feature selection" level of what were/were not expected capabilities to

meet the target market niche/pricing level for the device rather than

being pared out on an individual component-level culling (altho that

certainly occurs as well as the price/specific component alternative

vendors/etc. evaluations that occur).



--

I can show you plenty of rechargeable, cheap, consumer products that
sell for what a smoke detector sells for, or less that have battery
"Backup" or rechargeable batteries, that don't draw the battery down
along with using AC. Your argument about a 10 cent diode is silly.

On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 2:02:54 PM UTC-4, Pico Rico wrote:
"trader_4" wrote in message

...

On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 11:58:24 AM UTC-4, Pico Rico wrote:

"trader_4" wrote in message



...



On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 11:12:28 AM UTC-4, Pico Rico wrote:



"trader_4" wrote in message







...







On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 9:33:57 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:







On 10/01/2014 7:47 AM, trader_4 wrote:















...































... since these are both AC and battery powered, why does the



battery















go out in a year, just as fast or faster than battery only

powered







ones?















...































'Cuz they're a poorly designed (read "cheap to build") and don't















actually cut the battery (completely) out when A/C is on nor use















rechargeable batteries would be the likely cause...































I've not looked, but I'd think such a unit would be readily

available















altho undoubtedly at a somewhat higher price point. There are just



the















minimal one each floor of the old battery-powered type here as



nothing's















been modified since all the recent Code changes. So, that's just



three















and the once't a year deal isn't so bad as there are no cathedral















ceilings, etc., ...































--















A diode that costs maybe 10 cents has a big impact on price?















think of the voltage drop, too.







I don't see .6V diode drop from a 9V battery being a design challenge.



The electronics is going to work on 5V or 3V anyway.







but the battery will "die" sooner.



How so? The battery is rated at X amphours. Whether it delivers it

through

a diode or not is mostly insignificant. Only a very small amount of power

is

lost in the diode.



The voltage without a diode can drop ..65v further and still power the unit.

Wow, really? How very important. Let's see, we have a smoke detector
that's primarily operated by AC. So, it can go forever on AC plus last
about as long as a battery operated one if the power goes out. Power
almost always goes out for hours or a few days, not a year or two. That
voltage drop is important again, why?

I've also cited other common devices where they have battery plus AC and
don't draw the battery down unless it's needed because the AC fails.

On 10/01/2014 4:15 PM, trader_4 wrote:
....

I can show you plenty of rechargeable, cheap, consumer products that
sell for what a smoke detector sells for, or less that have battery
"Backup" or rechargeable batteries, that don't draw the battery down
along with using AC. Your argument about a 10 cent diode is silly.

That the cost/feature analysis comes out at a different place on other
products doesn't negate the general rule. And, in fact, the "feature
set" on your device pretty much confirms it for your particular device.

As said, it isn't/wasn't that the particular one selected component got
taken back out; the feature of which it might have been a key component
wasn't included to begin with. The decision as to whether it was/was
not to be included almost certainly included a consideration of the cost
for the design/manufacture in comparison to the expected margin and
potential increase/decrease in sales and was found lacking...

--

On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 5:29:59 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 10/01/2014 4:15 PM, trader_4 wrote:

...



I can show you plenty of rechargeable, cheap, consumer products that

sell for what a smoke detector sells for, or less that have battery

"Backup" or rechargeable batteries, that don't draw the battery down

along with using AC. Your argument about a 10 cent diode is silly.



That the cost/feature analysis comes out at a different place on other

products doesn't negate the general rule. And, in fact, the "feature

set" on your device pretty much confirms it for your particular device.



As said, it isn't/wasn't that the particular one selected component got

taken back out; the feature of which it might have been a key component

wasn't included to begin with. The decision as to whether it was/was

not to be included almost certainly included a consideration of the cost

for the design/manufacture in comparison to the expected margin and

potential increase/decrease in sales and was found lacking...



--

Pure conjecture on your part. You have no way of knowing what went into
the design consideration or why anything was or wasn't done. For all you
know it could be just a bad, dumb, design. I've seen battery backup on
cheap consumer products where it doesnt' run the battery down in a year.
The battery is only used if the AC goes down.

On 10/01/2014 4:42 PM, trader_4 wrote:
....

Pure conjecture on your part. You have no way of knowing what went into
the design consideration or why anything was or wasn't done. For all you
know it could be just a bad, dumb, design. I've seen battery backup on
cheap consumer products where it doesnt' run the battery down in a year.
The battery is only used if the AC goes down.

Surely no more so than conjecture on your part, either,...I pointed that
out some time ago upthread, as well, that we're both dealing in nothing
but conjecture here (other than the fact that the design did _not_
include the feature I will submit leads to a higher likelihood that was
done on purpose than not).

And, again, that other products have a different feature set and cost
point has no particular bearing on the given one.

I'm bowing out of a futile and pointless subthread at this point...

--

On 10/01/2014 4:29 PM, dpb wrote:
....

As said, it isn't/wasn't that the particular one selected component got
taken back out; the feature of which it might have been a key component
wasn't included to begin with. The decision as to whether it was/was not
to be included almost certainly included a consideration of the cost for
the design/manufacture in comparison to the expected margin and
potential increase/decrease in sales and was found lacking...

You never followed up w/ the particular manufacturer/model so can't tell
anything about who might have been but if it is a foreign knockoff it
may well be that the entire engineering for the specific unit was "copy
the model" in which case the feature set simply mimics that of the one
chosen to ape.

Which if so simply pushes the original design choice of feature set/cost
back to the previous manufacturer...

--

On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 5:48:22 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 10/01/2014 4:42 PM, trader_4 wrote:

...



Pure conjecture on your part. You have no way of knowing what went into

the design consideration or why anything was or wasn't done. For all you

know it could be just a bad, dumb, design. I've seen battery backup on

cheap consumer products where it doesnt' run the battery down in a year.

The battery is only used if the AC goes down.



Surely no more so than conjecture on your part, either,.

I wasn't conjecturing on why they did it. Just pointing it out and
that it's terribly inconvenient and dumb. Even if I buy your argument
that it would make the product cost some tiny amount more, it doesn't
make sense. They could charge $2 more, point out that their design,
unlike competitors doesn't draw the battery down unless the AC actually
goes out and have a marketing advantage. They'd sell more and make more
money.



...I pointed that

out some time ago upthread, as well, that we're both dealing in nothing

but conjecture here (other than the fact that the design did _not_

include the feature I will submit leads to a higher likelihood that was

done on purpose than not).



And, again, that other products have a different feature set and cost

point has no particular bearing on the given one.



It does when they are cheap consumer electronics type stuff.
And when we know how cheap semiconductors, like a diode are today.
That diode could probably be integrated into an IC already in
there, in which case it might not actually cost anything.



I'm bowing out of a futile and pointless subthread at this point...



--

On 10/1/2014 2:04 PM, dpb wrote:
On 10/01/2014 1:22 PM, dpb wrote:
...

I agree, that's a possible solution. The comment was directed at why
they didn't put in a 10c diode so I would not have to do that.

See above...
...

rather than
being pared out on an individual component-level culling (altho that
certainly occurs as well as the price/specific component alternative
vendors/etc. evaluations that occur).

--

Kind of like the Muntz TV. Way back when Mad Man Muntz was a car
dealer in California. He branched into TV manufacturing by selling
an extremely cheap TV set. The way he did it was to have his
engineers go through the set and try what would happen if they
left that out. One thing they left out was the IF stage. That
reduced the sensitivity, but since they were mostly sold in the
LA area they were close to the station and would still work, good
enough so that people who couldn't afford a good TV would use
them.

Bill

"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 2:02:54 PM UTC-4, Pico Rico wrote:
"trader_4" wrote in message

...

On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 11:58:24 AM UTC-4, Pico Rico wrote:

"trader_4" wrote in message



...



On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 11:12:28 AM UTC-4, Pico Rico wrote:



"trader_4" wrote in message







...







On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 9:33:57 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:







On 10/01/2014 7:47 AM, trader_4 wrote:















...































... since these are both AC and battery powered, why does the



battery















go out in a year, just as fast or faster than battery only

powered







ones?















...































'Cuz they're a poorly designed (read "cheap to build") and don't















actually cut the battery (completely) out when A/C is on nor use















rechargeable batteries would be the likely cause...































I've not looked, but I'd think such a unit would be readily

available















altho undoubtedly at a somewhat higher price point. There are
just



the















minimal one each floor of the old battery-powered type here as



nothing's















been modified since all the recent Code changes. So, that's
just



three















and the once't a year deal isn't so bad as there are no
cathedral















ceilings, etc., ...































--















A diode that costs maybe 10 cents has a big impact on price?















think of the voltage drop, too.







I don't see .6V diode drop from a 9V battery being a design
challenge.



The electronics is going to work on 5V or 3V anyway.







but the battery will "die" sooner.



How so? The battery is rated at X amphours. Whether it delivers it

through

a diode or not is mostly insignificant. Only a very small amount of
power

is

lost in the diode.



The voltage without a diode can drop ..65v further and still power the
unit.

Wow, really? How very important. Let's see, we have a smoke detector
that's primarily operated by AC. So, it can go forever on AC plus last
about as long as a battery operated one if the power goes out. Power
almost always goes out for hours or a few days, not a year or two. That
voltage drop is important again, why?

I've also cited other common devices where they have battery plus AC and
don't draw the battery down unless it's needed because the AC fails.

nevertheless.

On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 5:15:18 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 3:04:47 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:

On 10/01/2014 1:22 PM, dpb wrote:



...







I agree, that's a possible solution. The comment was directed at why



they didn't put in a 10c diode so I would not have to do that.







See above...



...







Actually, more precisely, I suspect the cut got made at the earlier



"feature selection" level of what were/were not expected capabilities to



meet the target market niche/pricing level for the device rather than



being pared out on an individual component-level culling (altho that



certainly occurs as well as the price/specific component alternative



vendors/etc. evaluations that occur).







--



I can show you plenty of rechargeable, cheap, consumer products that

sell for what a smoke detector sells for, or less that have battery

"Backup" or rechargeable batteries, that don't draw the battery down

along with using AC. Your argument about a 10 cent diode is silly.

However the purchaser of a hardwired smoke detector is almost the end user; neither the manufacturer nor the purchaser/installer cares about features, only code compliance and cost.

nate

On 10/1/2014 7:33 PM, Pico Rico wrote:
"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 2:02:54 PM UTC-4, Pico Rico wrote:
"trader_4" wrote in message

...

On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 11:58:24 AM UTC-4, Pico Rico wrote:

"trader_4" wrote in message



...



On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 11:12:28 AM UTC-4, Pico Rico wrote:



"trader_4" wrote in message







...







On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 9:33:57 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:







On 10/01/2014 7:47 AM, trader_4 wrote:















...





















SurvivalBlog.com http://www.survivalblog.com/index.html


The Daily Web Log for Prepared Individuals Living in Uncertain Times.


Monday, October 21, 2013







Second Chances, by Dirt Surgeon
http://www.survivalblog.com/2013/10/second-chances-by-dirt-surgeon.html

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http://www.survivalblog.com/2013/10/second_chances_by_dirt_surgeon.html

*Introductory Note:* I originally composed this
story in August of 2011 just months after our
family went through a devastating event. At the
time of writing the essay was short, sweet and
to the point. I have reconstructed my family’s
journey of the past 24 months to the present.

Thanks for all that you and others do by sharing
information, educating and inspiring the thought
process. It is my hope that this short family
history will provoke some to think about their
lifestyle, what is important and the effect an
event like this has on a family.

Four years ago my wife and I purchased fifty acres
that join our families’ three hundred and fifty
acre farm, built a new home and a seven acre lake
(we built both the house and lake ourselves, our
labor our time). We sold a business that we built
at a very large profit. We dumped the capital back
into the purchase of the 50 acres. The plans were
to built modestly and have a small mortgage or
none at all; we got carried away and ended up with
land free and clear but $138,000 mortgage on the
house and 10 acres. Once the house was complete
the market crash of 07-08 occurred, this is when
we truly woke up, we must prepare. In our research
we discovered survival blog, and rural revolution
blog we have learned so much. Our family has farmed,
gardened, canned, kept chickens for generations,
just our way of life, but we didn’t truly prep for
potential collapse, which leads me to the bulk of
my story:

May 5th, 2011 changed my family forever. With the
wet spring in the Midwest early garden planting was
nonexistent, May 5th was no different ground was
in good condition to plant but rain was in the evening
forecast so I took off from work early to plant
potatoes’, broccoli, cauliflower and so on. When
I turned in the quarter mile drive I met our black
lab, who never leaves the house, I thought this was
strange continuing on I noticed blue smoke coming
through the timber, panic struck, the house was on
fire. I grabbed the cell phone dialed 911, then the
garden hose, long story short we lost everything.
People it is a sickening filling when you realize
all you have in the world are the clothes on your
back and the cash in your pocket. I cursed God that
evening, how could he let this happen to me and my
family? Even now typing this I do so with tears in
my eyes, not so much for the tangible loss but the
pain I could see in the eyes of my wife and eight
year old daughter, I’m dad, it’s my job to protect.
It took several days for me to realize that God sent
dumpsters to my house instead of coffins, for that
I am thankful, and I hope he will accept my apology
for the things I said and thought.

The day after the fire my wife, daughter and I went
shopping for clothes, we had been discussing money
and the situation in ear shot of our eight year old
daughter. Our daughter who loves horses and collects
Breyer horses lost her collection in the fire. We
had been in the clothing section of our local farm
and garden center when daughter went missing. I found
her staring at the shelves full of breyer horses. She
would pick one up, look at it and set it down. Pick
another up and put it back. I watched from behind a
cloths rack as she dropped her shoulders, turned to
walk away with tears in her eyes. Gentlemen if you
have never seen this look in your child’s face I
will tell you it will tug at your heart like nothing
else. I was so proud of her because she was not going
to ask. I stepped out from behind the rack and asked
her if she found a horse she liked if not pick one
out. She said “but mom” I told her mom would under-
stand. This over a toy I could not imagine how I
would feel if something of a larger magnitude were
to happen.

Two days prior to the fire I turned the basement
lights on and the light switch arced. I guess that
is where the fire started. I should have called
my electrician buddy then and there. Poor choice,
and poor decision.

You may ask “What does this have to do with this
blog”? Well, there are lots of lessons to learn
and lots of blessing to count.

*Some Lessons Learned:*

1. We lost several years worth of food, canned
goods, canning equipment, meats the list goes on.
Note: do not store everything in one location.
2. Guns, ammo and hunting equipment. Note: purchase
gun safe, make sure guns are on separate rider for
insurance. Most policies only cover $2000 worth of
guns I had /one/ gun that was worth that amount,
just by itself. (Point of concern insurance companies
require serial numbers for coverage) I listed most
but not all.
3. Cash and coins, thankfully a fire fighter was
able to retrieve a large sum of cash hidden in the
house. Note: this goes in the safe or hidden outside
with other cash. My dad was impressed when I took a
shovel and dug up a mason jar. He said “I thought only
old timers banked that way”. Interest doesn’t pay
much but I know where the teller is.
4. Pictures, gone. Note store some in other locations
5. Keep a list or film your personal contents you will
have to list every item to collect your replacement
costs from your insurance company, this is painful.
Imagine setting down and listing every item in your
house. The big items are easy but think of every can
of beans, every item in the cabinets, bath room closet,
toys (although our daughter had a pretty good idea of
what she lost.)
6. Important papers, titles, DD214, marriage
license, birth certificates note: these go in
the safe

Blessings counted

1. My family is safe, yes we have a lot of work
ahead of us
2. The mortgage is gone, we can rebuild like we
should have the first time
3. Add a root cellar
4. Insurance has eliminated all of our dept.
5. Our commitment to preparing is stronger
6. Our family is stronger
7. Most of all we found out who we can truly call
our friend.
8. We will never look at someone else’s misfortune
the same.

It hit me hardest when I was hilling potatoes. I thought
if this was a total collapse, we’ve lost everything and
if the garden I stand in fails my family would more than
likely not see the spring of 2012.

During the summer of 2012 we spent some insurance
dollars and built a 30 by 50 shed complete with storage,
30 by 30 living space and fireproof hidey hole. We have
been living for the past two years in a two-room shed,
bathroom and the rest. This has been a great experience
in close living, a great example of retreat living. At
times this has been fun and at time it has been difficult
the following are some examples of both:

Fun times

1. We never replaced the satellite television.
board games, cards, conversations and reading
have been our main source of entertainment. Our
8 year old is now at the academic level of an
11 year old and her grades along with creativity
have improved.
2. The time spent outside has doubled maybe tripled.
We walk the property more, garden more, camp fires
in the evening
3. This style of living has given us a glimpse of
what close living will be like when family comes
knocking.
4. We purchased a Kitchen Queen Cook stove to heat
with. If you have never cooked with wood it is an
experience of fun and education. Although we
installed an electric stove the wood stove has been
entertaining, daughter loves to cook cookies, pizza
and her morning toast on the wood stove.

Not so fun times

1. Even though the shed is insulated the 12 foot
garage door allows the cold air in when the wind
picks up and the temperature drops.
2. The experience has made the wife and I wonder how
pioneers had such large families when living in a one
room homestead.
3. Storage has been an issue. Hanging cloths,
books, toys, food, everything just seems to be
cluttered all the time. Constant cleanup and pickup.
4. Bathroom issues with just three in the house
someone is always knocking on the door. Hot water
is always in demand during peak times.

Lessons learned

1. This has been hard, we cannot imagine what it
would be like without electric or water.
2. Fire wood being the only source of heat is tuff.
We have always had wood heat but we always had a
backup (electric or gas) when the wood pile gets
low you really start to worry about the outside
temperatures.
3. With a full time job, rebuilding the house
(will discuss later) there is very little time
to prep. The garden did well this year but canning
was minimal. Gave lots of produce to friends but
let the garden go in august. How did homesteaders
find the time to build a home, put food by, cut
fire wood? All by hand without modern equipment
and energy. This should be an eye opener for
all. Times could get very, very difficult.

Where are we now? In January 2013 we finally
demolished the old house. Our goal has been to
rebuild with the end result of no mortgage
payment. Working with insurance dollars and out
of pocket/savings we are finally trimming the home.
This is large mile stone to a more normal lifestyle.
We made lots of changes this time around because of
our prepping lifestyle. Here are some of the major
changes:

1. We went from a conventional 2,800 sq. ft. home
to a 1,400 sq. earth berm home. Both for security
reason and efficiency reasons.
2. Because the house is a basement style home I found
that if we have our water tank full we can back feed
water through the hydrant to the lower level and have
a toilet when the electric is out, doesn’t help with
potable water but it beats running to the timber.
3. Added some solar, but not near enough. But the
house has been wired for future addition.
4. On demand hot water (gas) hope to use the energy
savings for additional preps
5. Purchased a large gun safe all items of value are
stored/protected
6. The wood cook stove goes in the new house for both
cooking and heat.
7. This time around the kitchen stove is gas not electric.
8. Utility room designed specifically for storage of
food and other preps.
9. All basement windows have large window wells
installed for egress and potential fields of fire.
10. Most important hard wired battery backed up
smoke detectors. One in every room.

In many ways we are better prepared than we were
prior to the fire. Most importantly we are free of
mortgage companies and banks. This makes life so
enjoyable, knowing that most of our monthly income
can go towards prepping, savings, et cetera. God
has blessed us in that respect. In many ways we
are less prepared. Our food stores are less than
before, with two seasons sense the fire we have
consumed as much as we have set by. With livestock
to tend, hay to bail, daily chores and a full time
job something had to give while rebuilding. It’s
mid-October and we are in no way prepared for winter.
Not a stick of wood is ranked. Equipment has not
been winterized. One last round of hay to get in
the barn, the list could go on, but we should have
enough to get us to new crop.

We have replaced many things already, we have a
long row to hoe but with gods’ help and lot of
work we will be prepared for our future. We have
a second chance to make changes to better prepare
and make better choices. My prayer is for all to
look at your situation and think, double check
and rethink, anything can happen and it may very
well happen.

To my best friend whom I lost in June of 2013 to
a heart attack, I think of you often, thanks for
your help of cleaning, demolishing and rebuilding.
I’ve been helping with the boys they are doing
fine you are missed.

God bless and please learn from our experience.














... since these are both AC and battery powered, why does the



battery















go out in a year, just as fast or faster than battery only

powered







ones?















...





















SurvivalBlog.com http://www.survivalblog.com/index.html


The Daily Web Log for Prepared Individuals Living in Uncertain Times.


Monday, October 21, 2013

Letter Some Stump Burning Advice

http://www.survivalblog.com/2013/10/letter-re-some-stump-burning-advice.html

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Mr. Rawles,

Here is a way to efficiently burn stumps:

1. Get a 55 gallon steel drum

2. Remove both the top and bottom

3. Cut some holes in the lower sides from ground level to about 1/3 the
way up.

4. Place the barrel sleeve over a stump. Put a few crumpled-up paper
sacks soaked in diesel fuel in the bottom and close to some of the
holes. Pile all your wood debris in the barrel.

5. Light the sacks. [The barrel .sleeve contains the heat, creates a
draft, and keeps the wood fuel from rolling off.]

6. Every couple of hours, poke into the holes with a metal rod to break
up ash build-up.

Depending on the type of wood that you piled in and the size and type of
stump, it may take between a couple hours to a couple days to burn the
stump to below ground level. - P.S.















'Cuz they're a poorly designed (read "cheap to build") and don't















actually cut the battery (completely) out when A/C is on nor use















rechargeable batteries would be the likely cause...































I've not looked, but I'd think such a unit would be readily

available















altho undoubtedly at a somewhat higher price point. There are
just



the















minimal one each floor of the old battery-powered type here as



nothing's







SurvivalBlog.com http://www.survivalblog.com/index.html


The Daily Web Log for Prepared Individuals Living in Uncertain Times.


Monday, October 21, 2013







Two Letters Being Charitable When the SHTF

http://www.survivalblog.com/2013/10/two-letters-re-being-charitable-when-the-shtf.html

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Mr Rawles,
Thank you for taking the time to read my articles
and to comment on them. I appreciate the points
you raised regarding charity via the church and
other local organizations. I was possibly a little
unclear and maybe should have stressed more that
I was referring to the time during a collapse
when getting supplies to organizations in order
that they can disperse them could be difficult
if not downright dangerous.

I disagree that I am your diametric opposite Mr
Rawles. I am neither a thief nor a looter and I
agree with your assessment that a collapse
would have to be massive before I would
consider such measures. Myself or anyone else
who undertook to use materials from people's
homes should be prepared to compensate any
proven heirs who did arrive at a later time.

The purpose of these articles is to make people
think. To remove them from their comfort zone
and make them consider how truly vile a total
collapse would be. To hopefully make them think
about some of the situations they may face that
they have never faced before and to force them
to consider what they would do in these situations.

If anything I hope my articles make people stop
and think about their future, about preparedness,
and about making sure that their relative isn't
the 'old Mrs Jones' I refer to, and that something
good comes out of my writing.

I think we have a responsibility to look at all
aspects of a given picture and I believe there
are many different ways of doing that. Raising
awareness is I believe, why we write for public
consumption.

I stand by the articles I have written. They have
raised a great deal of debate and questioning on
several sites and that was the intention.

Once again thank you for taking the time to read
and comment on the articles.

Wishing you all good things for the future.
- Chris Carrington

Jim;
Regarding Chris Carrington's essay, "Why I
won’t be charitable when the
SHTF":

Admittedly, this is an issue I have struggled
with and despite trying to adhere to WWJD
("what would Jesus do?") in all things, whether
to give, when to give, who to and how much is
something I would have great difficulty deciding
on and given my terrible location in terms of
population density, the temptation is to take
a blanket approach of don’t give as to not put
me and my loved ones in detriment (unless we’re
bartering, which isn’t charity anyway). While
using a third party through the local church
is a possibility, the risk of that third party
revealing their source whether mistakenly or
under duress is too great a risk to OPSEC. What
if there are no Third Party volunteers for this
position? And would I be comfortable putting
this potential hazardous vocation on their
shoulders? It is a real quandary.

While family and some very close friends are
aware of my interest in preparedness (yet no
idea to what extent) I still picture myself
begrudging their lack of foresight despite
certain warnings I and the general political/
economic/cultural landscape has given, and a
subsequent argument on the doorstep with my
partner (who’s generosity know no bounds)
about “what do we do if supplies run out
before society gets back off its knees?”.
While they spend on cinema memberships, drinks
out, uneconomical vehicles, perpetuation/ of
indebtedness and other whimsy, my personal
expenditure is on food and travel to work
alone (with the odd date, some fishing bait
and a brew with a buddy) everything else goes
towards options, shielding us from indebtedness
and hurt down the road. So “give until it hurts”
sometimes feels like a preparedness oxymoron
(not to take away from you sage counsel Captain
Rawles, your view to do this is inspirational).
“I know where I’m coming when disaster strikes”
– How many times have you possibly heard that
when discussing preps? (with trusted folk of
course) and how frustrating it can be that they
miss the point entirely, that they should prep
too and their lack of understanding on the
logistical nightmare prepping for one can be,
never mind immediate and extended family. A
lesson they are going to learn the hardest way
imaginable (Praise be that the Lord has given
dreams to the least prepared members of collapse,
prompting some action). Again, charity is one of
the toughest areas of survival I have come across.

I dread to think where my conscience would side
in the event of charity cases in TEOTWAWKI
http://www.SurvivalBlog.com/glossary.html#TEOTWAWKI,
would it be my rational, harsh reality thinking
brain which agrees with Chris Carrington, or my
staunch faith in Christ and belief in Psalm 23?

I think the only solution to this comes down to
our best assets when the SHTF, community and
knowledge. Surrounding yourself with people who
come to understand and more importantly appreciate
the survival database you hold in your head
(without revealing what you have) and quickly
make yourself invaluable to those around you,
in turn creating opsec as opposed to compromising
it. Those that have read Lucifer's Hammer
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0449208133?ie=UTF8&tag=survivalcom-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeAS IN=0449208133
may recall the intellectual (septic tank man, I
forget the name) who in ill health steered the
chemical weapon project that secured the defeat
of the antagonist horde, and how valued he was
by his cohort due to his knowledge base. This
being a prime example of the “give a man a fish/
teach a man to fish” principle. The Mongols under
Genghis knew to look out for skilled individuals
to bring into the fold, the “bad guys” in schumer
time may apply the same theorem, if they know
what’s good for them. Not a desirable situation
but the alternative could be far less palatable.

I’m prepping for me and mine and putting together
anonymously authored pamphlets of essential
precepts to urban survival and becoming part of
the solution (eating perishables first, rules to
avoid a public health nightmare, encouraging trade
and barter with some etiquette pointers, security
tips, steering folks to church for community
building purposes, encouraging people to come
forth with their skill set, which I will monitor
covertly through the church etc) with water
purification tablets and instructions attached.
This will hopefully begin the networking
process necessary to pulling through.

Be the welder, be the medically adept individual,
be the mechanic, be the CB radio operator, be the
large scale gardener with seed bank, be the tree
surgeon/wood cutter, the security consultant and
so on, in other words, *make yourself an asset* to
those around you so your preservation is to their
benefit.

Any other “crunch” vocation suggestions would
be greatly appreciated.

May the Lord preserve us and judge us fittingly
and my prayers go out to my American Brethren.
- R.D. in England

*JWR Replies:* Mostly for "grid up" circumstances,
I made some suggestions on Depression-proof jobs
in these SurvivalBlog posts:

What Recovery? Find Yourself a Recoveryless Job
http://www.survivalblog.com/2009/10/what-recovery-find-yourself-a.html

Depression Proof Jobs for a 20 Year Depression - Part 1: The
Counter-Cyclical Jobs
http://www.survivalblog.com/2009/02/depression-proof-jobs-for-a-20.html

Depression Proof Jobs for a 20 Year Depression - Part 2: Developing a
Home-Based Business
http://www.survivalblog.com/2009/02/depression-proof-jobs-for-a-20-1.html

More About Depression Proof Jobs--Consider the Three Ks
http://www.survivalblog.com/2009/05/more-about-depression-proof-jo.html

and,

A Second Income--A Key Goal for Family Preparedness
http://www.survivalblog.com/2007/07/a-second-incomea-key-goal-for.html












been modified since all the recent Code changes. So, that's
just



three















and the once't a year deal isn't so bad as there are no
cathedral















ceilings, etc., ...































--















A diode that costs maybe 10 cents has a big impact on price?















think of the voltage drop, too.







I don't see .6V diode drop from a 9V battery being a design
challenge.



The electronics is going to work on 5V or 3V anyway.







but the battery will "die" sooner.



How so? The battery is rated at X amphours. Whether it delivers it

through

a diode or not is mostly insignificant. Only a very small amount of
power

is

lost in the diode.



The voltage without a diode can drop ..65v further and still power the
unit.

Wow, really? How very important. Let's see, we have a smoke detector
that's primarily operated by AC. So, it can go forever on AC plus last
about as long as a battery operated one if the power goes out. Power
almost always goes out for hours or a few days, not a year or two. That
voltage drop is important again, why?

I've also cited other common devices where they have battery plus AC and
don't draw the battery down unless it's needed because the AC fails.

nevertheless.


473 lines of text for one word reply? Got to be a record.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
nevertheless.


473 lines of text for one word reply? Got to be a record.



I feel as if my day is complete!

On 10/1/2014 8:59 PM, Pico Rico wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
nevertheless.


473 lines of text for one word reply? Got to be a record.



I feel as if my day is complete!

If Badgolferman doesn't have some kind of award,
we should start one.



..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Wed, 01 Oct 2014 13:22:52 -0500, dpb wrote:


Different device/design but the outdoor unit on the local weather
station has started indicating "low battery" at night...it's got a solar
charger and I replaced the initial battery just a month ago but it
showed the missive the other night again already. I suppose the solar
cell is now starting to fail/losing its "oomph" after 2-3 yr in the SW
KS sun...
...

Does it have AC too?

Not the external station, no. The base in-house display unit does and
it _does_ have pretty good battery life--seems I've changed them out
once, maybe. But, this is a much higher-priced device (Davis
Instruments VantageVUE) so the few pennies kinds of cost-cutting on
mass-produced consumer devices isn't _quite_ so vicious.

This is off-topic to the main thread, but in answer to your weather
station situation, Davis weather stations do not use the solar panel
to charge the battery. The panel charges a super capacitor and that
$5 part is a common failure point. I have never seen a schematic, but
somehow a bad super cap drains the battery as well. If your problem
returns with a week or two of replacing the battery, chances are the
problem is the super cap and NOT the solar panels.

I am using a Smoke Detector that i bought from ebay and its working nice in toddlers room. And its really help you me to get alert when there is any smoke.
What your stock broker doesn’t want you to see

On 10/2/2014 9:32 PM, stockbrokers wrote:
I am using a Smoke Detector that i bought
from ebay and its working nice
in toddlers room. And its really help
you me to get alert when there is
any smoke.



Perhaps your toddler should practice camp fires
and campcraft in the yard, instead of in bed?

Modelling Marilyn Monroe movies is fine, but
do you really think your toddler should be
doing that?
http://www.vintag.es/2011/09/marilyn...ng-in-bed.html

Please consider changing to Brady Bunch and
Little House on the Prarie, instead of Marilyn
Monroe movies.

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 10/2/2014 9:32 PM, stockbrokers wrote:
I am using a Smoke Detector that i bought
from ebay and its working nice
in toddlers room. And its really help
you me to get alert when there is
any smoke.

The smoke detectors I have bought all say to install them *outside* a bedroom in the hallway, so that's where mine is. A city code feller told me that most house fires start in the garage so I put one there as well.