Hello AHR folks, it's been a while since I've asked you helpful folks
for help.

I have a heat pump with an indoor air handler, purchased in 2002. I
found water standing on my basement floor and after drying it with the
dehumidifier I attempted to find out the source. I then found more
water coming from directly under the air handler, so called in for repair.

Guy opened the panel and the coils were rusted, and the water in the
condensation drain pan and circulating pipe was orangeish and was
clearly the reason why condensation wasn't draining and instead leaking
onto the floor.

The unit (a 2 ton Bryant) was purchased in 2002. Why would coils rust
so quickly and how can you prevent it after replacing the unit for many
$$$? My heat pump uses R22 freon and apparently it is banned for new
units but could be ordered for repairs, but to replace the coils would
be nearly as expensive for the whole job as it would be to replace both
the heat pump and the air handler. The replacement unit I'm looking at
has stainless steel coils; is that going to last longer, and how to
prevent this problem after replacement?


--
ღ.¸¸.œ«*¨`*œ¶
Cheryl

Cheryl wrote:
Hello AHR folks, it's been a while since I've asked you helpful folks
for help.

I have a heat pump with an indoor air handler, purchased in 2002. I
found water standing on my basement floor and after drying it with the
dehumidifier I attempted to find out the source. I then found more
water coming from directly under the air handler, so called in for repair.

Guy opened the panel and the coils were rusted, and the water in the
condensation drain pan and circulating pipe was orangeish and was
clearly the reason why condensation wasn't draining and instead leaking
onto the floor.

The unit (a 2 ton Bryant) was purchased in 2002. Why would coils rust
so quickly and how can you prevent it after replacing the unit for many
$$$? My heat pump uses R22 freon and apparently it is banned for new
units but could be ordered for repairs, but to replace the coils would
be nearly as expensive for the whole job as it would be to replace both
the heat pump and the air handler. The replacement unit I'm looking at
has stainless steel coils; is that going to last longer, and how to
prevent this problem after replacement?


Hi,
Have you done any PM on the unit since it was installed? Wonder if it is
a case of penny wise and pound foolish. Pardon, had to say this.

On 9/26/2014 12:04 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Cheryl wrote:
Hello AHR folks, it's been a while since I've asked you helpful folks
for help.

I have a heat pump with an indoor air handler, purchased in 2002. I
found water standing on my basement floor and after drying it with the
dehumidifier I attempted to find out the source. I then found more
water coming from directly under the air handler, so called in for
repair.

Guy opened the panel and the coils were rusted, and the water in the
condensation drain pan and circulating pipe was orangeish and was
clearly the reason why condensation wasn't draining and instead leaking
onto the floor.

The unit (a 2 ton Bryant) was purchased in 2002. Why would coils rust
so quickly and how can you prevent it after replacing the unit for many
$$$? My heat pump uses R22 freon and apparently it is banned for new
units but could be ordered for repairs, but to replace the coils would
be nearly as expensive for the whole job as it would be to replace both
the heat pump and the air handler. The replacement unit I'm looking at
has stainless steel coils; is that going to last longer, and how to
prevent this problem after replacement?


Hi,
Have you done any PM on the unit since it was installed? Wonder if it is
a case of penny wise and pound foolish. Pardon, had to say this.

I have, thank you for asking and replying! But apparently not 2x per
year to drain and clean the coils as they tech I just got said you're
supposed to do. I had no idea! I've had like every other year PM and no
one told me 2x per year. So is this how to save the coils? 2x per year
draining and cleaning? Does this mean draining the coolant, whatever
replaced freon? Preon or whatever he told me is used now?

--
ღ.¸¸.œ«*¨`*œ¶
Cheryl

Cheryl wrote:
On 9/26/2014 12:04 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Cheryl wrote:
Hello AHR folks, it's been a while since I've asked you helpful folks
for help.

I have a heat pump with an indoor air handler, purchased in 2002. I
found water standing on my basement floor and after drying it with the
dehumidifier I attempted to find out the source. I then found more
water coming from directly under the air handler, so called in for
repair.

Guy opened the panel and the coils were rusted, and the water in the
condensation drain pan and circulating pipe was orangeish and was
clearly the reason why condensation wasn't draining and instead leaking
onto the floor.

The unit (a 2 ton Bryant) was purchased in 2002. Why would coils rust
so quickly and how can you prevent it after replacing the unit for many
$$$? My heat pump uses R22 freon and apparently it is banned for new
units but could be ordered for repairs, but to replace the coils would
be nearly as expensive for the whole job as it would be to replace both
the heat pump and the air handler. The replacement unit I'm looking at
has stainless steel coils; is that going to last longer, and how to
prevent this problem after replacement?


Hi,
Have you done any PM on the unit since it was installed? Wonder if it is
a case of penny wise and pound foolish. Pardon, had to say this.

I have, thank you for asking and replying! But apparently not 2x per
year to drain and clean the coils as they tech I just got said you're
supposed to do. I had no idea! I've had like every other year PM and no
one told me 2x per year. So is this how to save the coils? 2x per year
draining and cleaning? Does this mean draining the coolant, whatever
replaced freon? Preon or whatever he told me is used now?

Hi,
This is to make sure drain hose/pipe is not plugged up by algae growth
or dirt so
pan is always empty rather than water stays in there all the time.
Moisture is cause
for rust most of time. R22 is still available for sure. There are many
ma y old systems
still running on R22.

"Cheryl" wrote in message
eb.com
Hello AHR folks, it's been a while since I've asked you helpful folks
for help.

I have a heat pump with an indoor air handler, purchased in 2002. I
found water standing on my basement floor and after drying it with the
dehumidifier I attempted to find out the source. I then found more
water coming from directly under the air handler, so called in for
repair.

Guy opened the panel and the coils were rusted, and the water in the
condensation drain pan and circulating pipe was orangeish and was
clearly the reason why condensation wasn't draining and instead leaking
onto the floor.

The unit (a 2 ton Bryant) was purchased in 2002. Why would coils rust
so quickly and how can you prevent it after replacing the unit for many
$$$? My heat pump uses R22 freon and apparently it is banned for new
units but could be ordered for repairs, but to replace the coils would
be nearly as expensive for the whole job as it would be to replace both
the heat pump and the air handler. The replacement unit I'm looking at
has stainless steel coils; is that going to last longer, and how to
prevent this problem after replacement?

Stainless doesn't rust. Are they materially more costly?

One prevents the problem by assuring that the drip pan isn't holding
water. It won't hold water if the drain line isn't plugged with debris or
whatever. You can check either by looking at the drip pan or outboard end
of the drain line (while unit is running) to see if water is dripping out.

In my opinion, PM every six months is primarily to enrich the company;
ditto annual. We spring for it every 2-3 years.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Friday, September 26, 2014 12:18:10 AM UTC-4, Cheryl wrote:
On 9/26/2014 12:04 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:

Cheryl wrote:

Hello AHR folks, it's been a while since I've asked you helpful folks

for help.



I have a heat pump with an indoor air handler, purchased in 2002. I

found water standing on my basement floor and after drying it with the

dehumidifier I attempted to find out the source. I then found more

water coming from directly under the air handler, so called in for

repair.



Guy opened the panel and the coils were rusted, and the water in the

condensation drain pan and circulating pipe was orangeish and was

clearly the reason why condensation wasn't draining and instead leaking

onto the floor.



The unit (a 2 ton Bryant) was purchased in 2002. Why would coils rust

so quickly and how can you prevent it after replacing the unit for many

$$$? My heat pump uses R22 freon and apparently it is banned for new

units but could be ordered for repairs, but to replace the coils would

be nearly as expensive for the whole job as it would be to replace both

the heat pump and the air handler. The replacement unit I'm looking at

has stainless steel coils; is that going to last longer, and how to

prevent this problem after replacement?





Hi,

Have you done any PM on the unit since it was installed? Wonder if it is

a case of penny wise and pound foolish. Pardon, had to say this.



I have, thank you for asking and replying! But apparently not 2x per

year to drain and clean the coils as they tech I just got said you're

supposed to do. I had no idea! I've had like every other year PM and no

one told me 2x per year. So is this how to save the coils? 2x per year

draining and cleaning? Does this mean draining the coolant, whatever

replaced freon? Preon or whatever he told me is used now?



--

ღ.¸¸.œ«*¨`*œ¶

Cheryl

IDK how you're supposed to drain and clean the coils. Every system around
here that I've seen, including brand new ones, just installed, have no
provision for access to clean. Take a look at the cased coils sold by
major HVAC manufacturers, and they are sealed. And draining makes no sense,
there is nothing to drain unless it's plugged and overflows. Otherwise water drips into the pan from the coils and water runs out.

Are you sure you even need a new unit? IDK what kind of coils rust, typically
they are made of aluminum. The pan under is typically plastic. Even if some
metal there is rusting, a you sure it's so bad that it needs to be replaced? If it's so shot that there is a hole in it where the water is leaking out,
then I can see it. But if the drain hole, drain line etc just got plugged up
with some rust, crud, whatever, the unit could still have life left in it.
There are a lot of companies out there that want to sell a new system, even
when there is a minor problem, or no problem at all.

On 9/25/2014 11:50 PM, Cheryl wrote:
Hello AHR folks, it's been a while since I've asked you helpful folks
for help.

I have a heat pump with an indoor air handler, purchased in 2002.

CY: 14 years ago.

I
found water standing on my basement floor and after drying it with the
dehumidifier I attempted to find out the source. I then found more
water coming from directly under the air handler, so called in for repair.

CY: Sounds like the right thing to do.


Guy opened the panel and the coils were rusted,

CY: The coils I've seen have often been copper tubes and aluminum fins.
I can believe corrosion, but rust only in the steel drain pan.

and the water in the
condensation drain pan and circulating pipe was orangeish

CY: Sounds like a rusty pan.

and was
clearly the reason why condensation wasn't draining and instead leaking
onto the floor.

CY: If the pan is rusted though, it will leak. Or, you might have a
clogged drain, and the water is overflowing the edge. Or, the pan might
not be properly tilted towards the drain.


The unit (a 2 ton Bryant) was purchased in 2002. Why would coils rust
so quickly

CY: 12 years of being wet is "rusted quickly?" Huh?

and how can you prevent it after replacing the unit for many
$$$?

CY: Sloped drain pan, clear drain, and possibly run the air handler fan
now and again to give it a chance to dry up.


My heat pump uses R22 freon

CY: Freon is a brand name. R22 is also available in Isotron brand, or
Genetron brand, or Forane brand.

and apparently it is banned for new
units but could be ordered for repairs, but to replace the coils would
be nearly as expensive for the whole job as it would be to replace both
the heat pump and the air handler.

CY: Might want to get a couple more quotes. I have
a hard time believing that replacing an indoor air
handler costs as much as replacing both.

The replacement unit I'm looking at
has stainless steel coils; is that going to last longer,

CY: Probably, yes.

and how to
prevent this problem after replacement?



CY: Slope, clear drain, run the fan occasionally,
clean the area with coil cleaner.


..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Thursday, September 25, 2014 11:50:36 PM UTC-4, Cheryl wrote:

Guy opened the panel and the coils were rusted, and the water in the

condensation drain pan and circulating pipe was orangeish and was

clearly the reason why condensation wasn't draining and instead leaking

onto the floor.

Cheryl

This doesn't make sense. Coils are aluminum and won't rust. They have to be, they are wet all the time, that's how they work when cooling.

There should not be water in the condensate pan. It should be draining. But these clog all the time, partly because dust gets past the filters but mostly because biological stuff grows in dark moist conditions.

When the condensate pan clogs, and they all do eventually, you have to snake or blow the drain out - when it clogs, you still shouldn't get water on the floor. There is supposed to be a secondary pan that catches it. Then that pan is supposed to have a float switch that shuts off the air handler so you know you have to fix it.

There is no circulating pipe in this system, just a drain pipe. If there's water in the drain, it is clogged.

On 9/26/2014 12:18 AM, Cheryl wrote:
I have, thank you for asking and replying! But apparently not 2x per
year to drain and clean the coils as they tech I just got said you're
supposed to do. I had no idea! I've had like every other year PM and no
one told me 2x per year.

CY: A good tech with experience in heat pumps can catch a lot of
problems while they are small.

So is this how to save the coils? 2x per year
draining and cleaning?

CY: In theory, the water that collects on the coils
should run down into the pan and then down the drain,
by gravity. Some times, things don't work as well.
The coil might shift and be sloped the wrong way.
Algae and dust builds up, and drains clog. A skilled
tech would catch this kind of problem early.

Does this mean draining the coolant, whatever
replaced freon? Preon or whatever he told me is used now?

CY: Unless you're doing major repairs like replacing
a coil, you generally don't need to remove the
refrigerant. The name Puron is a brand name for one
brand of R410a. Just like Freon is one brand of
refrigerants, which might include Freon 12, Freon 22,
Freon 500, Freon 502.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 9/26/2014 8:04 AM, trader_4 wrote:
IDK how you're supposed to drain and clean the coils.

CY: Cleaning coils is something I've often done.
Draining is when the drain tube is clogged, and
needs to be cleared. I've done that now and again.

Every system around
here that I've seen, including brand new ones, just installed, have no
provision for access to clean. Take a look at the cased coils sold by
major HVAC manufacturers, and they are sealed.

CY: Every system I've seen around here (including
the brand new ones I've helped install) has a
cover that comes off for cleaning. Take a look
at the cased coils sold by HVAC companies, they
have a side that comes off.


And draining makes no sense,
there is nothing to drain unless it's plugged and
overflows. Otherwise water drips into the pan from
the coils and water runs out.

CY: Ideally, yes, it drains by gravity.

Are you sure you even need a new unit? IDK what kind of coils rust, typically
they are made of aluminum. The pan under is typically plastic.

CY: Pan either plastic or some times steel.

Even if some
metal there is rusting, a you sure it's so bad that it needs to be replaced? If it's so shot that there is a hole in it where the water is leaking out,
then I can see it. But if the drain hole, drain line etc just got plugged up
with some rust, crud, whatever, the unit could still have life left in it.

CY: Might be able to dry they system out, and plug the
hole with (for example) epoxy cement.

There are a lot of companies out there that want to sell a new system, even
when there is a minor problem, or no problem at all.


CY: That's for sure!

On Friday, September 26, 2014 8:46:50 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 9/26/2014 8:04 AM, trader_4 wrote:

IDK how you're supposed to drain and clean the coils.



CY: Cleaning coils is something I've often done.

Draining is when the drain tube is clogged, and

needs to be cleared. I've done that now and again.



Every system around

here that I've seen, including brand new ones, just installed, have no

provision for access to clean. Take a look at the cased coils sold by

major HVAC manufacturers, and they are sealed.



CY: Every system I've seen around here (including

the brand new ones I've helped install) has a

cover that comes off for cleaning. Take a look

at the cased coils sold by HVAC companies, they

have a side that comes off.




It's been a few years since I worked on mine, and I guess you're
right that they have a panel that comes off, so I'm wrong about them
being sealed. But even with the panel
off, I don't see how you're going to clean much on a typical
modern coil. Here's a pic of a typical Rheem, similar to what I have:

https://www.theacoutlet.com/RCFLHM48...FVQV7AodoHoACg


With the cover off, you aren't going to clean much of it. You have
no access at all to the side of the coils that receive the incoming
air. With no access from above, I guess you might get your arm in there,
to try to clean two faces of the coils and you have very limited access
to just a part of one other face. That means you can maybe clean 2 1/2
sides out of 6 sides of the coils. And you can't get to the sides that
receive the incoming air at all, where presumably most of the dirt would be.

On Friday, September 26, 2014 8:38:39 AM UTC-4, TimR wrote:
On Thursday, September 25, 2014 11:50:36 PM UTC-4, Cheryl wrote:



Guy opened the panel and the coils were rusted, and the water in the



condensation drain pan and circulating pipe was orangeish and was



clearly the reason why condensation wasn't draining and instead leaking



onto the floor.



Cheryl



This doesn't make sense. Coils are aluminum and won't rust. They have to be, they are wet all the time, that's how they work when cooling.



There should not be water in the condensate pan. It should be draining. But these clog all the time, partly because dust gets past the filters but mostly because biological stuff grows in dark moist conditions.



When the condensate pan clogs, and they all do eventually, you have to snake or blow the drain out - when it clogs, you still shouldn't get water on the floor. There is supposed to be a secondary pan that catches it. Then that pan is supposed to have a float switch that shuts off the air handler so you know you have to fix it.



There is no circulating pipe in this system, just a drain pipe. If there's water in the drain, it is clogged.

+1

There are probably some metal parts in there that can rust, but not the coils themselves. The box for example that holds the coils, maybe some brackets, etc.
And even if there is some rust, unless it's structurally compromised, I don't
see the compelling need to replace it. At least not for the customer....
These backup and leak water frequently, due to the drains getting clogged.
Clean the drain, and keep on trucking.....

On 9/26/2014 9:06 AM, trader_4 wrote:

It's been a few years since I worked on mine, and I guess you're
right that they have a panel that comes off, so I'm wrong about them
being sealed. But even with the panel
off, I don't see how you're going to clean much on a typical
modern coil. Here's a pic of a typical Rheem, similar to what I have:

https://www.theacoutlet.com/RCFLHM48...FVQV7AodoHoACg


With the cover off, you aren't going to clean much of it. You have
no access at all to the side of the coils that receive the incoming
air. With no access from above, I guess you might get your arm in there,
to try to clean two faces of the coils and you have very limited access
to just a part of one other face. That means you can maybe clean 2 1/2
sides out of 6 sides of the coils. And you can't get to the sides that
receive the incoming air at all, where presumably most of the dirt would be.


Ideally, the system has a good air filter, and dust
isn't an issue. But, in the real world people pull
the filters out and let the system run unprotected.
It's often necessary to pump out the refrigerant,
and cut the coil out. Wet clean it with chemicals
and put it back. Bit of work, for sure

Cheaper than replacing a thousand dollar coil.

With the cover off, it's possible to spray in some
diluted Clorox bleach, and also to blow out the
drain.

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Friday, September 26, 2014 9:46:21 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 9/26/2014 9:06 AM, trader_4 wrote:



It's been a few years since I worked on mine, and I guess you're

right that they have a panel that comes off, so I'm wrong about them

being sealed. But even with the panel

off, I don't see how you're going to clean much on a typical

modern coil. Here's a pic of a typical Rheem, similar to what I have:



https://www.theacoutlet.com/RCFLHM48...FVQV7AodoHoACg





With the cover off, you aren't going to clean much of it. You have

no access at all to the side of the coils that receive the incoming

air. With no access from above, I guess you might get your arm in there,

to try to clean two faces of the coils and you have very limited access

to just a part of one other face. That means you can maybe clean 2 1/2

sides out of 6 sides of the coils. And you can't get to the sides that

receive the incoming air at all, where presumably most of the dirt would be.





Ideally, the system has a good air filter, and dust

isn't an issue. But, in the real world people pull

the filters out and let the system run unprotected.

It's often necessary to pump out the refrigerant,

and cut the coil out. Wet clean it with chemicals

and put it back. Bit of work, for sure


Well, that's kind of where I was coming from. It may not be
"sealed", but to get at it to really clean it, isn't typically
possible by just removing a panel. I'll bet only a small percentage
of the evap coils out there are ever cleaned.

I agree with the part about the filter. When I replaced mine
after 28 years, the coils were still clean. And all I'd used in
that one were the cheap 1" thick filters. Of course it also depends
on the environment. If you have a dirty, dusty house, 3 dogs, etc,
then the incoming air is probably a lot dirtier.

On Friday, September 26, 2014 10:35:37 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
I agree with the part about the filter. When I replaced mine

after 28 years, the coils were still clean. And all I'd used in

that one were the cheap 1" thick filters. Of course it also depends

on the environment. If you have a dirty, dusty house, 3 dogs, etc,

then the incoming air is probably a lot dirtier.

The purpose of the filter is to protect the coils from dust buildup, as well as the fan and anything else in there.

It is not to protect human health. A filter that could do that would have to trap much finer particles, therefore it would have much more air resistance and would require a much more powerful fan, etc.

As the filter gets dirty, it probably gets more effective at trapping dust, but it also increases the resistance to air flow. Eventually it will probably tear and let air through untreated. We want to change filters at regular intervals but doing it more often is probably not better.

On Fri, 26 Sep 2014 04:53:24 -0700, dadiOH wrote:

...snip....
Stainless doesn't rust. Are they materially more costly?

...snip...

YES IT DOES!!! Just not as readily as plain iron, though.

I have to continually wipe a sheen of red/brown off all our SS kitchen
appliances!

We're talking high end crap, too.

trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, September 26, 2014 8:38:39 AM UTC-4, TimR wrote:
On Thursday, September 25, 2014 11:50:36 PM UTC-4, Cheryl wrote:



Guy opened the panel and the coils were rusted, and the water in the



condensation drain pan and circulating pipe was orangeish and was



clearly the reason why condensation wasn't draining and instead leaking



onto the floor.



Cheryl



This doesn't make sense. Coils are aluminum and won't rust. They have to be, they are wet all the time, that's how they work when cooling.



There should not be water in the condensate pan. It should be draining. But these clog all the time, partly because dust gets past the filters but mostly because biological stuff grows in dark moist conditions.



When the condensate pan clogs, and they all do eventually, you have to snake or blow the drain out - when it clogs, you still shouldn't get water on the floor. There is supposed to be a secondary pan that catches it. Then that pan is supposed to have a float switch that shuts off the air handler so you know you have to fix it.



There is no circulating pipe in this system, just a drain pipe. If there's water in the drain, it is clogged.

+1

There are probably some metal parts in there that can rust, but not the coils themselves. The box for example that holds the coils, maybe some brackets, etc.
And even if there is some rust, unless it's structurally compromised, I don't
see the compelling need to replace it. At least not for the customer....
These backup and leak water frequently, due to the drains getting clogged.
Clean the drain, and keep on trucking.....

Hi,
I think the tech came was not really honest about the situation, may be
trying to sell
unnecessary high cost part(ie new coil) rather than repairing the issues
and give
the owner good run down on how to maintain it. Good honest techs are
hard to ccome by but they are still out there. At least I can recognize
it when I see one. One reason I turned
DIY'er. I enrolled on a few night courses at local tech college to learn
the basics.

trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, September 26, 2014 9:46:21 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 9/26/2014 9:06 AM, trader_4 wrote:



It's been a few years since I worked on mine, and I guess you're

right that they have a panel that comes off, so I'm wrong about them

being sealed. But even with the panel

off, I don't see how you're going to clean much on a typical

modern coil. Here's a pic of a typical Rheem, similar to what I have:



https://www.theacoutlet.com/RCFLHM48...FVQV7AodoHoACg





With the cover off, you aren't going to clean much of it. You have

no access at all to the side of the coils that receive the incoming

air. With no access from above, I guess you might get your arm in there,

to try to clean two faces of the coils and you have very limited access

to just a part of one other face. That means you can maybe clean 2 1/2

sides out of 6 sides of the coils. And you can't get to the sides that

receive the incoming air at all, where presumably most of the dirt would be.





Ideally, the system has a good air filter, and dust

isn't an issue. But, in the real world people pull

the filters out and let the system run unprotected.

It's often necessary to pump out the refrigerant,

and cut the coil out. Wet clean it with chemicals

and put it back. Bit of work, for sure


Well, that's kind of where I was coming from. It may not be
"sealed", but to get at it to really clean it, isn't typically
possible by just removing a panel. I'll bet only a small percentage
of the evap coils out there are ever cleaned.

I agree with the part about the filter. When I replaced mine
after 28 years, the coils were still clean. And all I'd used in
that one were the cheap 1" thick filters. Of course it also depends
on the environment. If you have a dirty, dusty house, 3 dogs, etc,
then the incoming air is probably a lot dirtier.


Hi,
My favorite filter is 16x25x5 Merv. 10 filter cartridge I replace twice
a year.
Every thing stays clean in the system. Only thing I clean at the start
of the season is
condenser coil out side.

On Friday, September 26, 2014 10:52:04 AM UTC-4, TimR wrote:
On Friday, September 26, 2014 10:35:37 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:

I agree with the part about the filter. When I replaced mine



after 28 years, the coils were still clean. And all I'd used in



that one were the cheap 1" thick filters. Of course it also depends



on the environment. If you have a dirty, dusty house, 3 dogs, etc,



then the incoming air is probably a lot dirtier.



The purpose of the filter is to protect the coils from dust buildup, as well as the fan and anything else in there.



It is not to protect human health. A filter that could do that would have to trap much finer particles, therefore it would have much more air resistance and would require a much more powerful fan, etc.



I think that depends on what kind of filter you have. Many typical
HVAC filters will collect dust, pollen, etc that are detrimental to
health. It doesn't have to be able to stop a virus to have a positive
effect on health.

"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.xmst9o182cx0wh@ajm
On Fri, 26 Sep 2014 04:53:24 -0700, dadiOH wrote:

...snip....
Stainless doesn't rust. Are they materially more costly?

...snip...

YES IT DOES!!! Just not as readily as plain iron, though.

I have to continually wipe a sheen of red/brown off all our SS kitchen
appliances!

We're talking high end crap, too.

OK, it may get some light surface rust, depending on the alloy, but it
doesn't get the scaley, deep rust.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 9/26/2014 11:15 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:

On Thursday, September 25, 2014 11:50:36 PM UTC-4, Cheryl wrote:



Guy opened the panel and the coils were rusted, and the water in the



Hi,
I think the tech came was not really honest about the situation, may be
trying to sell
unnecessary high cost part(ie new coil) rather than repairing the issues
and give
the owner good run down on how to maintain it. Good honest techs are
hard to ccome by but they are still out there.


Absolutely. The coils are either copper tubes with aluminum fins or
aluminum tubes and fins. They don't rust.

OTOH, they sit in a pan, often steel, that will rust, especially if the
drain plugs up. All you need is a good cleaning.

The water comes from condensation of the evaporator coil. Clean the
pan, clean the drain, then clean the coils with a spray made for that.
You can do this yourself and should do it every year or so. At least
check the drain.

Call the local VOC/Tech school and they may have a willing student to do
the job.

On Friday, September 26, 2014 2:47:02 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/26/2014 11:15 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:



On Thursday, September 25, 2014 11:50:36 PM UTC-4, Cheryl wrote:







Guy opened the panel and the coils were rusted, and the water in the







Hi,

I think the tech came was not really honest about the situation, may be

trying to sell

unnecessary high cost part(ie new coil) rather than repairing the issues

and give

the owner good run down on how to maintain it. Good honest techs are

hard to ccome by but they are still out there.





Absolutely. The coils are either copper tubes with aluminum fins or

aluminum tubes and fins. They don't rust.



OTOH, they sit in a pan, often steel, that will rust, especially if the

drain plugs up. All you need is a good cleaning.



The water comes from condensation of the evaporator coil. Clean the

pan, clean the drain, then clean the coils with a spray made for that.

You can do this yourself and should do it every year or so. At least

check the drain.



Call the local VOC/Tech school and they may have a willing student to do

the job.

I recently replaced my 28 year old unit, the coils were never cleaned
and they were still clean. The coils I've seen, there is no effective
way to clean them anyway. For example, here's a pic of a Rheem:

https://www.theacoutlet.com/RCFLHM48...FVQV7AodoHoACg

There isn't much there that's accessible with the cover off. You still
have very limited access and no access at all to the sides of the coils
where the incoming air hits. And if you try to spray it down with say
a hose, the water is going down into the furnace/air handler.

On 9/26/2014 2:50 PM, trader_4 wrote:

https://www.theacoutlet.com/RCFLHM48...FVQV7AodoHoACg

There isn't much there that's accessible with the cover off. You still
have very limited access and no access at all to the sides of the coils
where the incoming air hits. And if you try to spray it down with say
a hose, the water is going down into the furnace/air handler.


Some times, a light spray of clorox diluted will
cut down on mold and mildew.


..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 9/26/2014 10:35 AM, trader_4 wrote:

I agree with the part about the filter. When I replaced mine
after 28 years, the coils were still clean. And all I'd used in
that one were the cheap 1" thick filters. Of course it also depends
on the environment. If you have a dirty, dusty house, 3 dogs, etc,
then the incoming air is probably a lot dirtier.

I am very careful about making sure to replace the filter every 90 days
as specified by the manufacturer of the filter, it's never run without
one. The filter has never even looked like it needed changing when I do.

I've read your other post about whether it really needs replacing or
not, and I don't know how to respond to it just yet. Thanks for the info!

--
ღ.¸¸.œ«*¨`*œ¶
Cheryl

On 9/26/2014 8:42 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

On 9/26/2014 12:18 AM, Cheryl wrote:
I have, thank you for asking and replying! But apparently not 2x per
year to drain and clean the coils as they tech I just got said you're
supposed to do. I had no idea! I've had like every other year PM and no
one told me 2x per year.

CY: A good tech with experience in heat pumps can catch a lot of
problems while they are small.

So is this how to save the coils? 2x per year
draining and cleaning?

CY: In theory, the water that collects on the coils
should run down into the pan and then down the drain,
by gravity. Some times, things don't work as well.
The coil might shift and be sloped the wrong way.
Algae and dust builds up, and drains clog. A skilled
tech would catch this kind of problem early.

Does this mean draining the coolant, whatever
replaced freon? Preon or whatever he told me is used now?

CY: Unless you're doing major repairs like replacing
a coil, you generally don't need to remove the
refrigerant. The name Puron is a brand name for one
brand of R410a. Just like Freon is one brand of
refrigerants, which might include Freon 12, Freon 22,
Freon 500, Freon 502.

I won't make the mistake of not getting 2x per year maintenance with the
new system. I guess I really ****ed up. This is my first time as a
homeowner so I've made an expensive mistake.

--
ღ.¸¸.œ«*¨`*œ¶
Cheryl

On 9/26/2014 8:35 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

and how to
prevent this problem after replacement?



CY: Slope, clear drain, run the fan occasionally,
clean the area with coil cleaner.

Thank you! I haven't run the fan as much this past year as I usually do.
This is good advice.

--
ღ.¸¸.œ«*¨`*œ¶
Cheryl

On 9/26/2014 2:47 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Absolutely. The coils are either copper tubes with aluminum fins or
aluminum tubes and fins. They don't rust.

OTOH, they sit in a pan, often steel, that will rust, especially if the
drain plugs up. All you need is a good cleaning.

The water comes from condensation of the evaporator coil. Clean the
pan, clean the drain, then clean the coils with a spray made for that.
You can do this yourself and should do it every year or so. At least
check the drain.

Call the local VOC/Tech school and they may have a willing student to do
the job.

This kind of thing is why I should be a renter. I should have asked in
this group as soon as I found the water problem was the air handler!
Instead I waited too long, and now I've already purchased and scheduled
the replacement heat pump system. I had a feeling when I posted that
rather than tell me how to prevent it in the future, that I'd be told
I'm being swindled by the tech to sell me a new unit. I think you guys
are all correct but if you'd seen what I see in there, you'd probably
feel like it was now an unsafe bacteria and mold fest down there. lol

I'm not a do-it-yourselfer but I'm taking notes on everything said about
cleaning and will refer to it as needed.

Thank you.

--
ღ.¸¸.œ«*¨`*œ¶
Cheryl

On 9/26/2014 2:50 PM, trader_4 wrote:

I recently replaced my 28 year old unit, the coils were never cleaned
and they were still clean. The coils I've seen, there is no effective
way to clean them anyway. For example, here's a pic of a Rheem:

https://www.theacoutlet.com/RCFLHM48...FVQV7AodoHoACg

There isn't much there that's accessible with the cover off. You still
have very limited access and no access at all to the sides of the coils
where the incoming air hits. And if you try to spray it down with say
a hose, the water is going down into the furnace/air handler.

Mine doesn't look anything like that. If I get the chance, I'll take the
panel off and take a picture.

--
ღ.¸¸.œ«*¨`*œ¶
Cheryl

On Friday, September 26, 2014 8:19:41 PM UTC-4, Cheryl wrote:
This kind of thing is why I should be a renter. I should have asked in

this group as soon as I found the water problem was the air handler!

Instead I waited too long, and now I've already purchased and scheduled

the replacement heat pump system. I had a feeling when I posted that

rather than tell me how to prevent it in the future, that I'd be told

I'm being swindled by the tech to sell me a new unit. I think you guys


Well, on the other hand it was a 12 year old unit, and modern ones are more efficient. Your problem now is to be sure it is A) sized correctly and B) installed correctly. And get a good warranty.

Size is critical for heat pumps. Too big, and humidity control is lost. Too small, and you get warm two days a year when it can't keep up. But too big is FAR more common than too small. Some modern units have variable output built in but I'm not familiar with this in residential, haven't installed any.

Installation. Often done very badly, that's why so many of them come precharged. Ideally they'd pull a vacuum and meter in the charge measuring superheat, but few techs know how.

On 9/26/2014 8:08 PM, Cheryl wrote:


I am very careful about making sure to replace the filter every 90 days
as specified by the manufacturer of the filter, it's never run without
one. The filter has never even looked like it needed changing when I do.

I've read your other post about whether it really needs replacing or
not, and I don't know how to respond to it just yet. Thanks for the info!


Filters need replacing when dirty. The number of days is designed to
sell you four filters a year, needed or not. In a mild climate where
the air handler is hardly run, 180 days or more may be OK. If you live
in the shadow of a coal burning steel plant, maybe every few weeks is
needed.

TimR wrote:
On Friday, September 26, 2014 8:19:41 PM UTC-4, Cheryl wrote:
This kind of thing is why I should be a renter. I should have asked in

this group as soon as I found the water problem was the air handler!

Instead I waited too long, and now I've already purchased and scheduled

the replacement heat pump system. I had a feeling when I posted that

rather than tell me how to prevent it in the future, that I'd be told

I'm being swindled by the tech to sell me a new unit. I think you guys


Well, on the other hand it was a 12 year old unit, and modern ones are more efficient. Your problem now is to be sure it is A) sized correctly and B) installed correctly. And get a good warranty.

Size is critical for heat pumps. Too big, and humidity control is lost. Too small, and you get warm two days a year when it can't keep up. But too big is FAR more common than too small. Some modern units have variable output built in but I'm not familiar with this in residential, haven't installed any.

Installation. Often done very badly, that's why so many of them come precharged. Ideally they'd pull a vacuum and meter in the charge measuring superheat, but few techs know how.

Hi,
My tech when the new system was installed, he evacuated Puron, weighed
it on a scale topped it up and recharged. He said that was the correct
way. He comes around every
spring. gives quick check up. After 5 years still nothing needed except
cleaning
condenser coil myself, basically just hosing it down. Correctly
installed lower grade system may perform better poorly installed more
expensive higher grade unit.

Cheryl wrote:
On 9/26/2014 8:42 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

On 9/26/2014 12:18 AM, Cheryl wrote:
I have, thank you for asking and replying! But apparently not 2x per
year to drain and clean the coils as they tech I just got said you're
supposed to do. I had no idea! I've had like every other year PM and no
one told me 2x per year.

CY: A good tech with experience in heat pumps can catch a lot of
problems while they are small.

So is this how to save the coils? 2x per year
draining and cleaning?

CY: In theory, the water that collects on the coils
should run down into the pan and then down the drain,
by gravity. Some times, things don't work as well.
The coil might shift and be sloped the wrong way.
Algae and dust builds up, and drains clog. A skilled
tech would catch this kind of problem early.

Does this mean draining the coolant, whatever
replaced freon? Preon or whatever he told me is used now?

CY: Unless you're doing major repairs like replacing
a coil, you generally don't need to remove the
refrigerant. The name Puron is a brand name for one
brand of R410a. Just like Freon is one brand of
refrigerants, which might include Freon 12, Freon 22,
Freon 500, Freon 502.

I won't make the mistake of not getting 2x per year maintenance with the
new system. I guess I really ****ed up. This is my first time as a
homeowner so I've made an expensive mistake.

Hi,
You must be living down South where sun is always hot? My a/c barely
runs for two months a year. Rest is furnace time. Luckily NG price is
pretty low these days due to
too much supply.

On 9/26/2014 8:10 PM, Cheryl wrote:
On 9/26/2014 8:42 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

So is this how to save the coils? 2x per year
draining and cleaning?

CY: In theory, the water that collects on the coils
should run down into the pan and then down the drain,
by gravity. Some times, things don't work as well.
The coil might shift and be sloped the wrong way.
Algae and dust builds up, and drains clog. A skilled
tech would catch this kind of problem early.

I won't make the mistake of not getting 2x per year maintenance with the
new system. I guess I really ****ed up. This is my first time as a
homeowner so I've made an expensive mistake.


I don't totally know that twice a year is essential.
Can't hurt, if you have a reputable company. I'm a
hypocrite, in some regards. I installed HVAC for
six plus years, and I do nearly no maint on my own
system.

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 9/26/2014 8:13 PM, Cheryl wrote:

CY: Slope, clear drain, run the fan occasionally,
clean the area with coil cleaner.

Thank you! I haven't run the fan as much this past year as I usually do.
This is good advice.

Running the fan allows the coils and tray to dry.


..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Fri, 26 Sep 2014 22:28:44 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 9/26/2014 8:13 PM, Cheryl wrote:

CY: Slope, clear drain, run the fan occasionally,
clean the area with coil cleaner.

Thank you! I haven't run the fan as much this past year as I usually do.
This is good advice.

Running the fan allows the coils and tray to dry.


.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
My fan runs 24/7/12. Never shuts off. It runs SLOWLY when not heating
or cooling.

On 9/26/2014 9:49 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:

Hi,
You must be living down South where sun is always hot? My a/c barely
runs for two months a year. Rest is furnace time. Luckily NG price is
pretty low these days due to
too much supply.

I live in the Washington DC area where it's always humid in the summer.
I run my AC starting in probably June through October sometimes. Being a
heat pump, the unit itself runs nearly year round, with a few weeks in
the spring and maybe a month in the fall where I don't need heat or cooling.

--
ღ.¸¸.œ«*¨`*œ¶
Cheryl

On 9/26/2014 8:36 PM, TimR wrote:

Well, on the other hand it was a 12 year old unit, and modern ones
are more efficient. Your problem now is to be sure it is A) sized
correctly and B) installed correctly. And get a good warranty.

Size is critical for heat pumps. Too big, and humidity control is
lost. Too small, and you get warm two days a year when it can't keep
up. But too big is FAR more common than too small. Some modern
units have variable output built in but I'm not familiar with this in
residential, haven't installed any.

Installation. Often done very badly, that's why so many of them come
precharged. Ideally they'd pull a vacuum and meter in the charge
measuring superheat, but few techs know how.

I don't know what a lot of that means, like precharged. I will have to
look it up! I sort of wonder if the unit I have currently was just
too big. The outside unit is much bigger than the one it replace. I've
noticed that my neighbors on both sides of me still have the same units
they had when I bought my house in 2000. I have bad luck.

--
ღ.¸¸.œ«*¨`*œ¶
Cheryl

On Fri, 26 Sep 2014 20:19:41 -0400, Cheryl
wrote:




This kind of thing is why I should be a renter.


I'm not a do-it-yourselfer but I'm taking notes on everything said about
cleaning and will refer to it as needed.

Once you have a new system in place, you should be good for 20 to 30
years or so with normal wear.

I'm still a proponent of owning a home. If you plan you will have the
house paid off long before retiring. Taxes, insurance, utilities will
still go on, but they should be much lower than paying rent or a
mortgage. In 15 or 20 years, you have a lot of equity rather than a
box full of rent receipts.

Partly retired, I'm paying $300 a month (plus utilities) to live in a
2000 sq.ft. house on 1/3 acre of land. Rent in a crappy apartment is
at least 4X that.

Always some bumps in the road but the guys here can help smooth them
out.

On 9/27/2014 12:54 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Once you have a new system in place, you should be good for 20 to 30
years or so with normal wear.

I sure hope so!

I'm still a proponent of owning a home. If you plan you will have the
house paid off long before retiring. Taxes, insurance, utilities will
still go on, but they should be much lower than paying rent or a
mortgage. In 15 or 20 years, you have a lot of equity rather than a
box full of rent receipts.

I have refinanced many times, both to get a lower rate (it was over 9%
in 2000 when I bought my house!) and for a shorter term. I went first
for a lower rate, then down to 15 years, and the last time down to 10
years because the rates went so low.

Partly retired, I'm paying $300 a month (plus utilities) to live in a
2000 sq.ft. house on 1/3 acre of land. Rent in a crappy apartment is
at least 4X that.

Always some bumps in the road but the guys here can help smooth them
out.

Logically, owning is better than renting. When it comes down to the
never ending maintenance and replacements, it just makes me think about
the color of the grass on the other side.

--
ღ.¸¸.œ«*¨`*œ¶
Cheryl

On Saturday, September 27, 2014 7:48:24 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Precharged (in HVAC terminology) means that the outdoor

unit comes with a couple pounds of refrigerant already

in the unit. The installer solders or brazes the tubing

onto the unit (tubing that goes to the indoor coil) and

then opens the service valves.



What Tim suggests is that the installer vacuum pump the

air out of the system, and put in "just the right"

amount of refrigerant. Using temperature and pressure to

know when it's got enough.


Yeah.
There seem to be 3 ways to charge. In descending order of correctness, 1) use temperature and pressure to get it exactly right; 2) weigh the charge and put in the manufacturer's recommendation; 3) add charge until it feels about the same temperature as a cold beer can. You'd be surprised how often 3) is used.