Itsy bitsy tankless water heater?

I saw a thread a while back about tankless water heaters.

How about this?. I only want to heat the hot water for one sink, in
the bathroom. I haven't the patience to wait until it's hot so I
always wash my hands or my face with cold water.

I don't mind wasting money for once, though I plan to install it myself.

So what sort of electric tankless water heater would you recommend for
one sink?. I hope it won't need more than 15 amps.

How many gallons a minute of hot water does a bathroom sink use?

Favorite brands?


(The shower/tub in the same bathroom, the other 1.5 baths, the washing
machine, the kitchen sink, and the laundry sink can just wait until the
water gets hot, like they do now. My half-bath/powder room off the
front hall is directly above the water heater, and it is such a pleasure
to have hot water almost immediately.)

Thanks.

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 03:12:55 -0400, micky
wrote:

Itsy bitsy tankless water heater?

I saw a thread a while back about tankless water heaters.

How about this?. I only want to heat the hot water for one sink, in
the bathroom. I haven't the patience to wait until it's hot so I
always wash my hands or my face with cold water.


How about a small tank? They make under counter styles that hold a
few gallons.

http://www.grainger.com/category/ele...gestConfigId=2

We used them in two locations at work and they were plenty for a
vanity sink and wash up.

On 9/23/2014 3:12 AM, micky wrote:
Itsy bitsy tankless water heater?

I saw a thread a while back about tankless water heaters.

How about this?. I only want to heat the hot water for one sink, in
the bathroom. I haven't the patience to wait until it's hot so I
always wash my hands or my face with cold water.

I don't mind wasting money for once, though I plan to install it myself.

So what sort of electric tankless water heater would you recommend for
one sink?. I hope it won't need more than 15 amps.

How many gallons a minute of hot water does a bathroom sink use?

Favorite brands?

Thanks.


Most modern aerators run 1.5 gpm, I think it is.
I don't know the brand, but my church has a couple
instant heaters under sinks. They work well.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Tuesday, September 23, 2014 3:12:55 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:
Itsy bitsy tankless water heater?



I saw a thread a while back about tankless water heaters.



How about this?. I only want to heat the hot water for one sink, in

the bathroom. I haven't the patience to wait until it's hot so I

always wash my hands or my face with cold water.



I don't mind wasting money for once, though I plan to install it myself.



So what sort of electric tankless water heater would you recommend for

one sink?. I hope it won't need more than 15 amps.



How many gallons a minute of hot water does a bathroom sink use?



Favorite brands?





(The shower/tub in the same bathroom, the other 1.5 baths, the washing

machine, the kitchen sink, and the laundry sink can just wait until the

water gets hot, like they do now. My half-bath/powder room off the

front hall is directly above the water heater, and it is such a pleasure

to have hot water almost immediately.)



Thanks.

I doubt 15 amps is going to get you anywhere. I have an electric kettle to
heat water in the kitchen for coffee, tea, etc. It's 1500W and it takes quite a few minutes to heat just a liter of water to boiling. You don't have to get nearly that hot, but you probably want a couple liters a minute min flowing through there. Like Ed said, a small tank type might be better if you have room. But IDK about them either. I've had a couple of those instant hot water dispensers for the kitchen sink. They use a tank. They last about 3 years and then they fail, for one reason or another, including leaking tank. Also, like a regular tank type water heater, sediment builds up and the water winds up not tasting good. Just like I wouldn't use water from a tank water heater to drink, I decided those under sink units were a bad idea. For a bathroom it would be OK, provided the units last.

Micky,

For one sink, perhaps a recirculator would be better than a water heater.
More installation work but less money than a water heater. Why do you want
to go with a water heater?

Dave M.

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 03:12:55 -0400, micky
wrote:

Itsy bitsy tankless water heater?

I saw a thread a while back about tankless water heaters.

How about this?. I only want to heat the hot water for one sink, in
the bathroom. I haven't the patience to wait until it's hot so I
always wash my hands or my face with cold water.

I don't mind wasting money for once, though I plan to install it myself.

So what sort of electric tankless water heater would you recommend for
one sink?. I hope it won't need more than 15 amps.

How many gallons a minute of hot water does a bathroom sink use?

Favorite brands?


(The shower/tub in the same bathroom, the other 1.5 baths, the washing
machine, the kitchen sink, and the laundry sink can just wait until the
water gets hot, like they do now. My half-bath/powder room off the
front hall is directly above the water heater, and it is such a pleasure
to have hot water almost immediately.)

Thanks.
I'd use a mini-tank heater. 110 volt, 15 amp, 3 gallon

Or this 4 gallon unit:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ariston-4...L4-0/100011293
1500 watts, just like a tea kettle

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 06:10:33 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 03:12:55 -0400, micky
wrote:

Itsy bitsy tankless water heater?

I saw a thread a while back about tankless water heaters.

How about this?. I only want to heat the hot water for one sink, in
the bathroom. I haven't the patience to wait until it's hot so I
always wash my hands or my face with cold water.


How about a small tank? They make under counter styles that hold a
few gallons.

http://www.grainger.com/category/ele...gestConfigId=2

We used them in two locations at work and they were plenty for a
vanity sink and wash up.
And when they run out of hot water, the hot water from the main tank
will have arrived.

On Tuesday, September 23, 2014 8:04:15 AM UTC-4, David L. Martel wrote:
Micky,



For one sink, perhaps a recirculator would be better than a water heater.

More installation work but less money than a water heater. Why do you want

to go with a water heater?



Dave M.

I'm not sure a recirculator is less money either in installation cost
or operating costs compared to a small water heater for one sink. The
recirculator would have the advantage that it would get hot water to
everything in the bathroom, eg shower, too though.

On 9/23/2014 7:04 AM, David L. Martel wrote:
Micky,

For one sink, perhaps a recirculator would be better than a water
heater. More installation work but less money than a water heater. Why
do you want to go with a water heater?


+1

I installed the Watts recirculator a couple of years ago. Works great
and not that difficult if you can do some light plumbing work. I bought
my unit from an Ebay seller (brand new) and saved about $80.

Pump unit (mfg by Grundfos - very quiet) mounts atop the water heater on
the output side. Simple bypass valve mounts under the sink in the
location (ideally) the furthest down line from the heater.

It has a timer which you can use to tailor the operational hours if you
wish or just leave it run 24/7.

Only downside I've found is that if you like to take a drink out of the
tap, you'll find you have to run the water a bit to get it cool. System
is a closed-loop and the only way to get the hot water to your sink is
to "bleed it off" onto the cold side.

Sure is nice to open the faucet and have hot water immediately though.

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 08:04:15 -0400, "David L. Martel"
wrote:

Micky,

For one sink, perhaps a recirculator would be better than a water heater.
More installation work but less money than a water heater. Why do you want
to go with a water heater?

Dave M.

Doesn't recirculation mean having an added pipe that runs back to the
water heater? I could measure, rather than going by my eye, but I"m
pretty sure that the water supply to this bathroom goes up the wall
between the kitchen and dining room, but then runs horizontally for a
foot or two, betore going a foot or two up the wall between the
bathrooms.

Also I'm *sure* that the water supply pipes to those bathrooms turn
vertical just above an I-beam that holds up the house. So even if it
is really a straight run to the second floor, the I-beam is in the way
if I want to run another pipe.

(I was very surprised to see an I-beam in residential construction
(townhouses) about 10" high by 3 or 4 inches wide. There are two of
them, running sideways, perpendicular to the joists and trusses. The
one in the basement family room is boxed in. The one in the laundry/
furnace room has everything showing, except the ends, which I guess rest
on the cinder block wall. (I thought cinder blocks could crumble?))

So running a return pipe would be a lot of work, far beyond my ability.

(The kitchen has cabinets, but (I guess I could cut a path up the dining
room wall, across the dining room ceiling those 2 feet.... and somehow
turn corners at both ends, and have someone else replaster, but.I'll
probably tear the house apart and not repair it. Can't I do under the
sink in one day?)

On 9/23/2014 8:44 AM, micky wrote:
On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 08:04:15 -0400, "David L. Martel"
wrote:

Micky,

For one sink, perhaps a recirculator would be better than a water heater.
More installation work but less money than a water heater. Why do you want
to go with a water heater?

Dave M.

Doesn't recirculation mean having an added pipe that runs back to the
water heater? I could measure, rather than going by my eye, but I"m
pretty sure that the water supply to this bathroom goes up the wall
between the kitchen and dining room, but then runs horizontally for a
foot or two, betore going a foot or two up the wall between the
bathrooms.

NO! No additional piping is required.

Do a Google search on watts recirculating water pump. I'm pretty sure
there's even a YouTube video out there.

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 06:10:33 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 03:12:55 -0400, micky
wrote:

Itsy bitsy tankless water heater?

I saw a thread a while back about tankless water heaters.

How about this?. I only want to heat the hot water for one sink, in
the bathroom. I haven't the patience to wait until it's hot so I
always wash my hands or my face with cold water.


How about a small tank? They make under counter styles that hold a
few gallons.

http://www.grainger.com/category/ele...gestConfigId=2

We used them in two locations at work and they were plenty for a
vanity sink and wash up.

I guess this is really what I had in mind.** Thanks.

My basement WH leaked after so many years, but it was on the basement
floor, and now I have a pan underneath with a pipe to the sump pump
sump. Will this some day leak its 4 gallons into my bathroom, through
the ceiling to the dining room?

And will it radiate heat? I"ve pretty much stopped using my AC -- only
8 days this summer where I even needed the big fan -- but I don't want
to add heat to the top floor either?


**After I posted the question I found a page that seemed to say a
tankless water heater for even one sink was more like 40 amps.
http://toastyreviews.hubpages.com/hu...heater-reviews

On 9/23/2014 9:53 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 9/23/2014 8:44 AM, micky wrote:
Doesn't recirculation mean having an added pipe that runs back to the
water heater? I could measure, rather than going by my eye, but I"m
pretty sure that the water supply to this bathroom goes up the wall
between the kitchen and dining room, but then runs horizontally for a
foot or two, betore going a foot or two up the wall between the
bathrooms.

NO! No additional piping is required.

Do a Google search on watts recirculating water pump. I'm pretty sure
there's even a YouTube video out there.


YES! Additional piping is required.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circulator_pump
The traditional hot water recirculation system uses a
dedicated return line from the point of use located
farthest from the hot water tank back to the hot
water tank.

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 08:07:40 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 03:12:55 -0400, micky
wrote:

Itsy bitsy tankless water heater?

I saw a thread a while back about tankless water heaters.

How about this?. I only want to heat the hot water for one sink, in
the bathroom. I haven't the patience to wait until it's hot so I
always wash my hands or my face with cold water.

I don't mind wasting money for once, though I plan to install it myself.

So what sort of electric tankless water heater would you recommend for
one sink?. I hope it won't need more than 15 amps.

How many gallons a minute of hot water does a bathroom sink use?

Favorite brands?


(The shower/tub in the same bathroom, the other 1.5 baths, the washing
machine, the kitchen sink, and the laundry sink can just wait until the
water gets hot, like they do now. My half-bath/powder room off the
front hall is directly above the water heater, and it is such a pleasure
to have hot water almost immediately.)

Thanks.
I'd use a mini-tank heater. 110 volt, 15 amp, 3 gallon

Or this 4 gallon unit:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ariston-4...L4-0/100011293
1500 watts, just like a tea kettle

If I call before noon, they'll install it this afternoon!! Thanks.

On 9/23/2014 9:11 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

NO! No additional piping is required.

Do a Google search on watts recirculating water pump. I'm pretty sure
there's even a YouTube video out there.


YES! Additional piping is required.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circulator_pump
The traditional hot water recirculation system uses a
dedicated return line from the point of use located
farthest from the hot water tank back to the hot
water tank.



TRADITIONAL, yes. Watts recirculator as I have and has been featured on
Ask This Old House in the past does NOT.

As I specifically mentioned the Watts system in both my posts...

let's not confuse the issue for the OP any further.

Still in doubt?

http://www.watts.com/pages/whatsnew/IHWRS.asp

and here's the installation video

http://webapps.easy2.com/cm_mvc/Gene...ge_id=35844403

On Tuesday, September 23, 2014 10:10:45 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:
On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 06:10:33 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:



On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 03:12:55 -0400, micky

wrote:



Itsy bitsy tankless water heater?



I saw a thread a while back about tankless water heaters.



How about this?. I only want to heat the hot water for one sink, in

the bathroom. I haven't the patience to wait until it's hot so I

always wash my hands or my face with cold water.





How about a small tank? They make under counter styles that hold a

few gallons.



http://www.grainger.com/category/ele...gestConfigId=2



We used them in two locations at work and they were plenty for a

vanity sink and wash up.



I guess this is really what I had in mind.** Thanks.



My basement WH leaked after so many years, but it was on the basement

floor, and now I have a pan underneath with a pipe to the sump pump

sump. Will this some day leak its 4 gallons into my bathroom, through

the ceiling to the dining room?



Yes. And probably sooner than the typical 10 year WH tank life.





And will it radiate heat? I"ve pretty much stopped using my AC -- only

8 days this summer where I even needed the big fan -- but I don't want

to add heat to the top floor either?



Of course it's going to produce heat. There's no free lunch. With
decent insulation, the heat isn't going to amount to more than a
fly farting in the wind though.






**After I posted the question I found a page that seemed to say a

tankless water heater for even one sink was more like 40 amps.

http://toastyreviews.hubpages.com/hu...heater-reviews

On Tuesday, September 23, 2014 9:53:01 AM UTC-4, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 9/23/2014 8:44 AM, micky wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 08:04:15 -0400, "David L. Martel"

wrote:



Micky,



For one sink, perhaps a recirculator would be better than a water heater.

More installation work but less money than a water heater. Why do you want

to go with a water heater?



Dave M.



Doesn't recirculation mean having an added pipe that runs back to the

water heater? I could measure, rather than going by my eye, but I"m

pretty sure that the water supply to this bathroom goes up the wall

between the kitchen and dining room, but then runs horizontally for a

foot or two, betore going a foot or two up the wall between the

bathrooms.



NO! No additional piping is required.



As long as you're OK with putting tepid water that's been in the WH
into the cold supply line, where it will be used for cold water for
anything between the WH and the sink that he wants the instant hot
water at. Could be the kitchen sink is on the route. If he's not
OK with that, then he would need a separate return line.



Do a Google search on watts recirculating water pump. I'm pretty sure

there's even a YouTube video out there.

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 03:12:55 -0400, micky
wrote:

Itsy bitsy tankless water heater?

I saw a thread a while back about tankless water heaters.

_Tankless Water Heater Buying Guide_

The site addresses point of use tankless units and other details.

http://www.tanklesswaterheaterguide.com/

Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 9/23/2014 7:04 AM, David L. Martel wrote:
Micky,

For one sink, perhaps a recirculator would be better than a water
heater. More installation work but less money than a water heater.
Why do you want to go with a water heater?


+1

I installed the Watts recirculator a couple of years ago. Works great
and not that difficult if you can do some light plumbing work. I
bought my unit from an Ebay seller (brand new) and saved about $80.

Pump unit (mfg by Grundfos - very quiet) mounts atop the water heater
on the output side. Simple bypass valve mounts under the sink in the
location (ideally) the furthest down line from the heater.

It has a timer which you can use to tailor the operational hours if
you wish or just leave it run 24/7.

Only downside I've found is that if you like to take a drink out of
the tap, you'll find you have to run the water a bit to get it cool. System is
a closed-loop and the only way to get the hot water to your
sink is to "bleed it off" onto the cold side.

Sure is nice to open the faucet and have hot water immediately though.

When I was remodeling the bathrooms in my house, I added a return pipe for the
recirc pump from the bath to the water heater, so I don't have to deal with the
warm "cold" water problem. I have a low voltage push button in each bathroom
which starts a timer that turns on the recirc pump for just long enough to get
the hot water where it's needed. Walk in the bath, push the button, and use the
toilet. By then the hot water is available, with no water down the drain other
than a second or 2 to clear the pipe from the wall to the sink/shower. There is
no need to run the pump more than a few minuts a day.

On 9/23/2014 3:12 AM, micky wrote:
Itsy bitsy tankless water heater?

I saw a thread a while back about tankless water heaters.

How about this?. I only want to heat the hot water for one sink, in
the bathroom. I haven't the patience to wait until it's hot so I
always wash my hands or my face with cold water.

I don't mind wasting money for once, though I plan to install it myself.

So what sort of electric tankless water heater would you recommend for
one sink?. I hope it won't need more than 15 amps.

How many gallons a minute of hot water does a bathroom sink use?

Favorite brands?


(The shower/tub in the same bathroom, the other 1.5 baths, the washing
machine, the kitchen sink, and the laundry sink can just wait until the
water gets hot, like they do now. My half-bath/powder room off the
front hall is directly above the water heater, and it is such a pleasure
to have hot water almost immediately.)

Thanks.


Go to Amazon and look at "Bosch GL2.5 Ariston 2-1/2-Gallon Point-of-Use
Indoor Electric Mini-Tank Water Heater". Or you could just install one of
the automatic circulation pumps to make sure that hot water is always there
when needed but to make this effective, the hot water line really needs to
be insulated.

On 9/23/2014 10:15 AM, micky wrote:
Or this 4 gallon unit:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ariston-4...L4-0/100011293
1500 watts, just like a tea kettle

If I call before noon, they'll install it this afternoon!! Thanks.


Please let us know how the job went, and
what the cost was.


..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 10:10:45 -0400, micky
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 06:10:33 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 03:12:55 -0400, micky
wrote:

Itsy bitsy tankless water heater?

I saw a thread a while back about tankless water heaters.

How about this?. I only want to heat the hot water for one sink, in
the bathroom. I haven't the patience to wait until it's hot so I
always wash my hands or my face with cold water.


How about a small tank? They make under counter styles that hold a
few gallons.

http://www.grainger.com/category/ele...gestConfigId=2

We used them in two locations at work and they were plenty for a
vanity sink and wash up.

I guess this is really what I had in mind.** Thanks.

My basement WH leaked after so many years, but it was on the basement
floor, and now I have a pan underneath with a pipe to the sump pump
sump. Will this some day leak its 4 gallons into my bathroom, through
the ceiling to the dining room?

And will it radiate heat? I"ve pretty much stopped using my AC -- only
8 days this summer where I even needed the big fan -- but I don't want
to add heat to the top floor either?


**After I posted the question I found a page that seemed to say a
tankless water heater for even one sink was more like 40 amps.
http://toastyreviews.hubpages.com/hu...heater-reviews
Put a turkey roaster under it.

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 08:53:01 -0500, Unquestionably Confused
wrote:

On 9/23/2014 8:44 AM, micky wrote:
On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 08:04:15 -0400, "David L. Martel"
wrote:

Micky,

For one sink, perhaps a recirculator would be better than a water heater.
More installation work but less money than a water heater. Why do you want
to go with a water heater?

Dave M.

Doesn't recirculation mean having an added pipe that runs back to the
water heater? I could measure, rather than going by my eye, but I"m
pretty sure that the water supply to this bathroom goes up the wall
between the kitchen and dining room, but then runs horizontally for a
foot or two, betore going a foot or two up the wall between the
bathrooms.

NO! No additional piping is required.

Do a Google search on watts recirculating water pump. I'm pretty sure
there's even a YouTube video out there.


By code here in Ontario Canada extra piping IS required. You can NOT
allow any backflow into the coild water side. Even a "mixed shuttoff"
on the tub shower is technically illegal.

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 09:44:33 -0500, Unquestionably Confused
wrote:

On 9/23/2014 9:11 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

NO! No additional piping is required.

Do a Google search on watts recirculating water pump. I'm pretty sure
there's even a YouTube video out there.


YES! Additional piping is required.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circulator_pump
The traditional hot water recirculation system uses a
dedicated return line from the point of use located
farthest from the hot water tank back to the hot
water tank.



TRADITIONAL, yes. Watts recirculator as I have and has been featured on
Ask This Old House in the past does NOT.

As I specifically mentioned the Watts system in both my posts...

let's not confuse the issue for the OP any further.

Still in doubt?

http://www.watts.com/pages/whatsnew/IHWRS.asp

and here's the installation video

http://webapps.easy2.com/cm_mvc/Gene...ge_id=35844403
Works but illegal in most jurisdictions

g,

The cold water pipes are used as the return loop. It may heat up the cold
water a bit during the recirculation. Probably not much of a problem.
I like the programable timer.

Dave M.

"micky" wrote in message ...
Itsy bitsy tankless water heater?

I saw a thread a while back about tankless water heaters.

How about this?. I only want to heat the hot water for one sink, in
the bathroom. I haven't the patience to wait until it's hot so I
always wash my hands or my face with cold water.

I don't mind wasting money for once, though I plan to install it myself.

So what sort of electric tankless water heater would you recommend for
one sink?. I hope it won't need more than 15 amps.

How many gallons a minute of hot water does a bathroom sink use?

Favorite brands?


(The shower/tub in the same bathroom, the other 1.5 baths, the washing
machine, the kitchen sink, and the laundry sink can just wait until the
water gets hot, like they do now. My half-bath/powder room off the
front hall is directly above the water heater, and it is such a pleasure
to have hot water almost immediately.)

Thanks.

The lovey Miseries Bob wanted a water-squirts-the-butt toilet seat. And I have to say that it is handy to have, especially for them as has disabilities or old timers disease. Every toilet in a hospital or nursing home should be required to have one. Amazing that they are not covered by Medicare... butt I digress....

Anyway, it has a small tank and keeps it hot. I don't know the electricity cost but (and this is a big butt) it's rated at 100 watts.

On 9/23/2014 10:34 AM, wrote:

[snip]

Still in doubt?

http://www.watts.com/pages/whatsnew/IHWRS.asp

and here's the installation video

http://webapps.easy2.com/cm_mvc/Gene...ge_id=35844403

That assumes you already have a :"loop"

You really ought to try reading or watching before typing, sir.

The return "loop" is the cold water pipe, utilized by the installation
of a by-pass fitting at (generally) the lavatory fixture furthest
removed from the water heater.

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 11:16:05 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 08:08:29 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 06:10:33 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 03:12:55 -0400, micky
wrote:

Itsy bitsy tankless water heater?

I saw a thread a while back about tankless water heaters.

How about this?. I only want to heat the hot water for one sink, in
the bathroom. I haven't the patience to wait until it's hot so I
always wash my hands or my face with cold water.


How about a small tank? They make under counter styles that hold a
few gallons.

http://www.grainger.com/category/ele...gestConfigId=2

We used them in two locations at work and they were plenty for a
vanity sink and wash up.
And when they run out of hot water, the hot water from the main tank
will have arrived.

That is exactly what I did for the kitchen and a bathroom that is too
far from the water heater to get hot water in a reasonable time.


me too. In my experience they last about 5 years in that service.

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 11:31:57 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 10:11:33 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 9/23/2014 9:53 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 9/23/2014 8:44 AM, micky wrote:
Doesn't recirculation mean having an added pipe that runs back to the
water heater? I could measure, rather than going by my eye, but I"m
pretty sure that the water supply to this bathroom goes up the wall
between the kitchen and dining room, but then runs horizontally for a
foot or two, betore going a foot or two up the wall between the
bathrooms.

NO! No additional piping is required.

Do a Google search on watts recirculating water pump. I'm pretty sure
there's even a YouTube video out there.


YES! Additional piping is required.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circulator_pump
The traditional hot water recirculation system uses a
dedicated return line from the point of use located
farthest from the hot water tank back to the hot
water tank.

The good thing is it doesn't have to be big pipe. A 3./8" copper or
Pex tube is plenty. You can fish Pex pretty easily.
If the place you want to recirculate to is higher than the water
heater, you don't even need a pump.

I don't get it.

Assume the water heater is in the basement and the place you want to
recirculate it too is on the 2nd floor.

If you don't have a pump, how does the water know which pipe to go up,
and which pipe to go down?

When the faucet is turned on, why doesn't it go up both pipes, and when
the faucet is turned of, then stop in each of them?

On 9/24/2014 4:07 PM, micky wrote:

[sni]
The good thing is it doesn't have to be big pipe. A 3./8" copper or
Pex tube is plenty. You can fish Pex pretty easily.
If the place you want to recirculate to is higher than the water
heater, you don't even need a pump.

I don't get it.

Assume the water heater is in the basement and the place you want to
recirculate it too is on the 2nd floor.

If you don't have a pump, how does the water know which pipe to go up,
and which pipe to go down?

When the faucet is turned on, why doesn't it go up both pipes, and when
the faucet is turned of, then stop in each of them?

Convection, thermodynamics, call it what you will.

Heat rises. The hot water will rise up the pipe (just like it rises to
the top of the water heater tank. Since water is non-compressible, it
has to displace itself and the cooler/cold water is forced downward (via
the PEX in this case). The trick is having a one-way valve calibrated
to allow the hot water to flow over to the PEX (or in the example I had
with the Watts recirculator) or the cold water line.

That's where it gets tricky since both the hot and cold water sides are
at the same pressure - or should be.

So, while it can be done without a pump, you probably will really need
to use one to make this work. But, yes, fishing PEX would be a helluva
lot easier than plumbing a return line with copper but still not as easy
as using the Watts system without a dedicated return line.

On Wed, 24 Sep 2014 17:07:36 -0400, micky
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 11:31:57 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 10:11:33 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 9/23/2014 9:53 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 9/23/2014 8:44 AM, micky wrote:
Doesn't recirculation mean having an added pipe that runs back to the
water heater? I could measure, rather than going by my eye, but I"m
pretty sure that the water supply to this bathroom goes up the wall
between the kitchen and dining room, but then runs horizontally for a
foot or two, betore going a foot or two up the wall between the
bathrooms.

NO! No additional piping is required.

Do a Google search on watts recirculating water pump. I'm pretty sure
there's even a YouTube video out there.


YES! Additional piping is required.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circulator_pump
The traditional hot water recirculation system uses a
dedicated return line from the point of use located
farthest from the hot water tank back to the hot
water tank.

The good thing is it doesn't have to be big pipe. A 3./8" copper or
Pex tube is plenty. You can fish Pex pretty easily.
If the place you want to recirculate to is higher than the water
heater, you don't even need a pump.

I don't get it.

Assume the water heater is in the basement and the place you want to
recirculate it too is on the 2nd floor.

If you don't have a pump, how does the water know which pipe to go up,
and which pipe to go down?

It goes out the pipe at the top of the water heater. The cold water
ALWAYS enters at the bottom

When the faucet is turned on, why doesn't it go up both pipes, and when
the faucet is turned of, then stop in each of them?
The THEORY is the water will thermosyphon when the tap is closed (the
"loop" bypasses the tap. I can't see it working without a dedicated
"return" line. Using the cold water line as the return just sounds all
wrong to me - not allowed here, in any case. With a dedicated return,
even a smaller pipe, like 3/8" tube, I can see it working, but not as
well as a pumped system.

On Wed, 24 Sep 2014 18:58:12 -0500, Unquestionably Confused
wrote:

I
Convection, thermodynamics, call it what you will.

Heat rises. The hot water will rise up the pipe (just like it rises to
the top of the water heater tank. Since water is non-compressible, it
has to displace itself and the cooler/cold water is forced downward (via
the PEX in this case). The trick is having a one-way valve calibrated
to allow the hot water to flow over to the PEX (or in the example I had
with the Watts recirculator) or the cold water line.

That's where it gets tricky since both the hot and cold water sides are
at the same pressure - or should be.

So, while it can be done without a pump, you probably will really need
to use one to make this work. But, yes, fishing PEX would be a helluva
lot easier than plumbing a return line with copper but still not as easy
as using the Watts system without a dedicated return line.



I have one of these systems in my house. I didn't install it but as
far as I can see there is no check valve in the system. There is a
cut off valve for those who want to shut it off in the summer to avoid
the slight heating to the house. In the winter "waste" heat just
heats the house and costs nothing to run. It only takes a very small
amount of circulating water to provide for the instant hot water.

On Saturday, September 27, 2014 11:06:02 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:
On Wed, 24 Sep 2014 20:07:03 -0400, wrote:



On Wed, 24 Sep 2014 17:07:36 -0400, micky

wrote:



On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 11:31:57 -0400, wrote:



On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 10:11:33 -0400, Stormin Mormon

wrote:



On 9/23/2014 9:53 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

On 9/23/2014 8:44 AM, micky wrote:

Doesn't recirculation mean having an added pipe that runs back to the

water heater? I could measure, rather than going by my eye, but I"m

pretty sure that the water supply to this bathroom goes up the wall

between the kitchen and dining room, but then runs horizontally for a

foot or two, betore going a foot or two up the wall between the

bathrooms.



NO! No additional piping is required.



Do a Google search on watts recirculating water pump. I'm pretty sure

there's even a YouTube video out there.





YES! Additional piping is required.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circulator_pump

The traditional hot water recirculation system uses a

dedicated return line from the point of use located

farthest from the hot water tank back to the hot

water tank.



The good thing is it doesn't have to be big pipe. A 3./8" copper or

Pex tube is plenty. You can fish Pex pretty easily.

If the place you want to recirculate to is higher than the water

heater, you don't even need a pump.



I don't get it.



Assume the water heater is in the basement and the place you want to

recirculate it too is on the 2nd floor.



If you don't have a pump, how does the water know which pipe to go up,

and which pipe to go down?



It goes out the pipe at the top of the water heater. The cold water

ALWAYS enters at the bottom



When the faucet is turned on, why doesn't it go up both pipes, and when

the faucet is turned of, then stop in each of them?

The THEORY is the water will thermosyphon when the tap is closed (the

"loop" bypasses the tap. I can't see it working without a dedicated

"return" line. Using the cold water line as the return just sounds all

wrong to me - not allowed here, in any case. With a dedicated return,

even a smaller pipe, like 3/8" tube, I can see it working, but not as

well as a pumped system.



I get it now. Thanks, and thanks Unq



I could run a pipe up my laundry chute, and there is almost a foot of

space in front of the chute and behind the wall. AFAIK that's not used

for anything.



I would need to go horizontal just below 2nd floor level, to get to the

other side of the hall. That is, the chute etc. is across the hall from

the bathroom, so I should readlly take up the carpet, cut a trench into

the floor of the hall, and run the pipe, maybe PEX, under the hall

floor, which I'd have to connect to the vertical pipe (or bend to be

vertical) on one side of the hall, and have to bend up to come through

the sink cabinet floor on the other side. The cabinet floor is

removeable, but then there is the bathroom floor 2 inches below that.

:-(



Sounds like a lot of work, and Ill end up having the hall torn up for

months while I try to make connections on either side. Unless there is

a clever way around all this.

That would be the pump that sits under the sink and uses the cold water
line as the return. It's clever, as long as you don't intend to drink
any of the cold water from a fixture anywhere along that pipe route.

On 9/27/2014 1:37 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, September 27, 2014 11:06:02 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:
On Wed, 24 Sep 2014 20:07:03 -0400, wrote:


Sounds like a lot of work, and Ill end up having the hall torn up for

months while I try to make connections on either side. Unless there is

a clever way around all this.

That would be the pump that sits under the sink and uses the cold water
line as the return. It's clever, as long as you don't intend to drink
any of the cold water from a fixture anywhere along that pipe route.


Actually, the Watts system has the pump installed at the water heater.
There is only the by-pass valve at the lavatory to allow use of the CW
pipe as the return.

On Sat, 27 Sep 2014 15:25:18 -0500, Unquestionably Confused
wrote:

On 9/27/2014 1:37 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, September 27, 2014 11:06:02 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:
On Wed, 24 Sep 2014 20:07:03 -0400, wrote:


Sounds like a lot of work, and Ill end up having the hall torn up for

months while I try to make connections on either side. Unless there is

a clever way around all this.

That would be the pump that sits under the sink and uses the cold water
line as the return. It's clever, as long as you don't intend to drink
any of the cold water from a fixture anywhere along that pipe route.

Well I do drink water from the bathroom when I'm thirsty, and also from
the kitchen sink, which -- I'll check again -- afaicr uses much of the
same line. In fact I fill up bottles of water for the fridge there.

OTOH, when the house was new a couple times I made cocoa straight from
the hot water. Tasted okay to me. Vinyl and glass water heater liner
and copper pipes: can hot water make me sick, ?

And I could let the cold water run until it was really cold. Of course
that's like letting the hot water run, and the whole reason for this
project was to avoid that.

Actually, the Watts system has the pump installed at the water heater.
There is only the by-pass valve at the lavatory to allow use of the CW
pipe as the return.

I've marked thel links but been too busy to read them. I will.

On 9/28/2014 2:07 AM, micky wrote:

That would be the pump that sits under the sink and uses the cold water
line as the return. It's clever, as long as you don't intend to drink
any of the cold water from a fixture anywhere along that pipe route.

The other poster's comment, above, is not with regard to safety but
rather temperature of the cold water available when this system is used.

Read on...


Well I do drink water from the bathroom when I'm thirsty, and also from
the kitchen sink, which -- I'll check again -- afaicr uses much of the
same line. In fact I fill up bottles of water for the fridge there.

OTOH, when the house was new a couple times I made cocoa straight from
the hot water. Tasted okay to me. Vinyl and glass water heater liner
and copper pipes: can hot water make me sick, ?

And I could let the cold water run until it was really cold. Of course
that's like letting the hot water run, and the whole reason for this
project was to avoid that.

In our home we have hard water and thus have a water softener. I have
never cared for the taste of softened water for drinking. Will I
occasionally take a drink to wash down an aspirin? Sure. Will I use it
several times per day to "brush and flush?" Yep.

With the Watts recirculator installed, I have one additional reason not
to drink it and that is that the first glass of "cold" water comes out
lukewarm to warm. Not hot.

On Sunday, September 28, 2014 7:40:13 AM UTC-4, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 9/28/2014 2:07 AM, micky wrote:



That would be the pump that sits under the sink and uses the cold water

line as the return. It's clever, as long as you don't intend to drink

any of the cold water from a fixture anywhere along that pipe route.



The other poster's comment, above, is not with regard to safety but

rather temperature of the cold water available when this system is used.



It's not just the temperature, it's that water from a water heater typically
tastes like crap. I would never drink it, unless I had to. It's also one of
the reasons I gave up on the instant hot water dispenser for the kitchen sink.
It was convenient, but the water quality was crap and they don't last more than
a few years. An electric kettle is fast and uses fresh cold water.






Read on...





Well I do drink water from the bathroom when I'm thirsty, and also from

the kitchen sink, which -- I'll check again -- afaicr uses much of the

same line. In fact I fill up bottles of water for the fridge there.



OTOH, when the house was new a couple times I made cocoa straight from

the hot water. Tasted okay to me. Vinyl and glass water heater liner

and copper pipes: can hot water make me sick, ?



And I could let the cold water run until it was really cold. Of course

that's like letting the hot water run, and the whole reason for this

project was to avoid that.



In our home we have hard water and thus have a water softener. I have

never cared for the taste of softened water for drinking. Will I

occasionally take a drink to wash down an aspirin? Sure. Will I use it

several times per day to "brush and flush?" Yep.



With the Watts recirculator installed, I have one additional reason not

to drink it and that is that the first glass of "cold" water comes out

lukewarm to warm. Not hot.

On 9/28/2014 7:58 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, September 28, 2014 7:40:13

The other poster's comment, above, is not with regard to safety but

rather temperature of the cold water available when this system is used.



It's not just the temperature, it's that water from a water heater typically
tastes like crap. I would never drink it, unless I had to. It's also one of
the reasons I gave up on the instant hot water dispenser for the kitchen sink.
It was convenient, but the water quality was crap and they don't last more than
a few years. An electric kettle is fast and uses fresh cold water.


Probably correct. I won't drink the softened water as it just tastes,
well, don't laugh, "bland." Not concerned about the issue of salt as
some are, just don't like the taste. We have a deep well, hard water,
low iron content and the untreated water tastes fine. Soften it and it
sucks. Everything other than the outside sill cocks, the in-door water
and ice maker on the fridge, and a separate tap in the kitchen go
through the softener.

Not sure my taste buds would have a problem with hot water from the tap
used for tea or instant soups (finished off, of course, with the
microwave), but don't think I'll even experimentg

On Sunday, September 28, 2014 11:49:37 AM UTC-4, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 9/28/2014 7:58 AM, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, September 28, 2014 7:40:13



The other poster's comment, above, is not with regard to safety but



rather temperature of the cold water available when this system is used.







It's not just the temperature, it's that water from a water heater typically

tastes like crap. I would never drink it, unless I had to. It's also one of

the reasons I gave up on the instant hot water dispenser for the kitchen sink.

It was convenient, but the water quality was crap and they don't last more than

a few years. An electric kettle is fast and uses fresh cold water.





Probably correct. I won't drink the softened water as it just tastes,

well, don't laugh, "bland." Not concerned about the issue of salt as

some are, just don't like the taste. We have a deep well, hard water,

low iron content and the untreated water tastes fine. Soften it and it

sucks. Everything other than the outside sill cocks, the in-door water

and ice maker on the fridge, and a separate tap in the kitchen go

through the softener.



Not sure my taste buds would have a problem with hot water from the tap

used for tea or instant soups (finished off, of course, with the

microwave), but don't think I'll even experimentg


I agree. When I had the instant hot water dispenser for the kitchen sink,
I used it for instant coffee, tea, to dissolve bullion cubes, etc. But
after a couple years, it started to have the bland, off taste that my hot
water has. You could get by with it for making instant coffee, where it's
probably not noticeable. But then instant coffee isn't great to begin with.
And just knowing that I was using crappy water didn't sit to well with me.
That, combined with the fact that those units only last a few years, I came
to the conclusion it's not worth it.

I can make a liter of fresh ground coffee starting with beans in under 10 mins
using my electric kettle. And a cup of water for tea, etc in the microwave in
about a min.

If I was doing the hot water to the bathroom thing, I guess if the kitchen
wasn't on that water route, then the pump with no return would be an option.
IF it goes past the kitchen, then I'd only do it with a return line.

On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 11:20:17 -0400, BenignBodger
wrote:

On 9/23/2014 3:12 AM, micky wrote:
Itsy bitsy tankless water heater?

I saw a thread a while back about tankless water heaters.

How about this?. I only want to heat the hot water for one sink, in
the bathroom. I haven't the patience to wait until it's hot so I
always wash my hands or my face with cold water.

I don't mind wasting money for once, though I plan to install it myself.

So what sort of electric tankless water heater would you recommend for
one sink?. I hope it won't need more than 15 amps.

How many gallons a minute of hot water does a bathroom sink use?

Favorite brands?


(The shower/tub in the same bathroom, the other 1.5 baths, the washing
machine, the kitchen sink, and the laundry sink can just wait until the
water gets hot, like they do now. My half-bath/powder room off the
front hall is directly above the water heater, and it is such a pleasure
to have hot water almost immediately.)

Thanks.


Go to Amazon and look at "Bosch GL2.5 Ariston 2-1/2-Gallon Point-of-Use
Indoor Electric Mini-Tank Water Heater". Or you could just install one of
the automatic circulation pumps to make sure that hot water is always there
when needed but to make this effective, the hot water line really needs to
be insulated.

One of the first things I did when I moved in was insultate the hot
water line, but I could only get to the part in the basement. The 15
feet or so going up and across were beyond my reach.

And what I did accomplished nothing. I'll wash up at the sink once in
the morning. Then 4 or 8 hours later, lunch or dinner (and probably not
lunch since even when home, I normally have no reason go upstairs) no
matter how well insulated the pipe, the water will still be room
temperature

Then maybe 4 hours after dinner, I take a bath. The bath faucet is big
enough so that it takes less time, or for some other reason, I don't
mind waiting for the bath or shower, water to turn hot.