The HOA just sent out an email that there has been a sewer collapse and
that the city was working on it. The city told the HOA that some might
have problems with sewer gas getting into the house during the fixing
because the workers would create a vaccum that might pull the water from
the pipes in the house and that we should run water if we smelt gas. How
far away from the construction should I be before I don't really need to
worry about it?
--
³Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital.²
‹ Aaron Levenstein

Until you can't smell it?

.....

Kurt,


Just do what they tell you. If you smell sewer gas, run the water in all
of your sinks and tubs to refill the P traps. Takes about 10 seconds per
fixture.

Dave M.

David L. Martel wrote:
Kurt,


Just do what they tell you. If you smell sewer gas, run the water
in all of your sinks and tubs to refill the P traps. Takes about 10
seconds per fixture.


Don't forget floor drains in the basement. They may or may not be connected to
the sewer.

Bob F wrote:
David L. Martel wrote:
Kurt,


Just do what they tell you. If you smell sewer gas, run the water
in all of your sinks and tubs to refill the P traps. Takes about 10
seconds per fixture.


Don't forget floor drains in the basement. They may or may not be
connected to the sewer.


Actually , if the drains are properly vented there's no way a vacuum in
the system can suck the p-traps dry .
--
Snag



---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

In article ,
"David L. Martel" wrote:

Kurt,


Just do what they tell you. If you smell sewer gas, run the water in all
of your sinks and tubs to refill the P traps. Takes about 10 seconds per
fixture.

Dave M.

My problem is that we are traveling while they are working on it. Trying
to figure out if I need to have the neighbor wander through a couple of
times a day or not.
--
³Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital.²
‹ Aaron Levenstein

Snag wrote:
Bob F wrote:
David L. Martel wrote:
Kurt,


Just do what they tell you. If you smell sewer gas, run the water
in all of your sinks and tubs to refill the P traps. Takes about 10
seconds per fixture.


Don't forget floor drains in the basement. They may or may not be
connected to the sewer.


Actually , if the drains are properly vented there's no way a vacuum in
the system can suck the p-traps dry .

Hmmm,
According to law of physics, I'd say. Any thing can happen to any thing
any time.

On 12/17/2013 10:11 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:


Don't forget floor drains in the basement. They may or may not be
connected to the sewer.


Actually , if the drains are properly vented there's no way a
vacuum in
the system can suck the p-traps dry .

Hmmm,
According to law of physics, I'd say. Any thing can happen to any thing
any time.

According to the laws of physics, perhaps you're correct. Highly
unusual for it to occur though if the caveat "PROPERLY VENTED" is accurate.

I wonder though if the city was actually cautioning him about the storm
sewers. Floor drain in the basement is generally (again GENERALLY) not
supposed to be tied in the the sanitary sewer line which is vent,
however it if is -as may well be the case here (hence the city's
concern) - I don't think that that sewer drain is tied into the vent
stack in the house. Perhaps it's supposed to be but I've seen too many
where it's not.

If I was the original poster, I would check to make sure there's water
in the p-traps and if I wasn't absolutely sure that the basement drain
was NOT connected to the affected line, I'd install a pressure plug
until the crisis passed so that whether they suck the line clear or try
to blow it clear, the crap would take the path of least resistance and
not fill up my basement.

Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 12/17/2013 10:11 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:


Don't forget floor drains in the basement. They may or may not be
connected to the sewer.


Actually , if the drains are properly vented there's no way a
vacuum in
the system can suck the p-traps dry .

Hmmm,
According to law of physics, I'd say. Any thing can happen to any thing
any time.

According to the laws of physics, perhaps you're correct. Highly
unusual for it to occur though if the caveat "PROPERLY VENTED" is accurate.

I wonder though if the city was actually cautioning him about the storm
sewers. Floor drain in the basement is generally (again GENERALLY) not
supposed to be tied in the the sanitary sewer line which is vent,
however it if is -as may well be the case here (hence the city's
concern) - I don't think that that sewer drain is tied into the vent
stack in the house. Perhaps it's supposed to be but I've seen too many
where it's not.

If I was the original poster, I would check to make sure there's water
in the p-traps and if I wasn't absolutely sure that the basement drain
was NOT connected to the affected line, I'd install a pressure plug
until the crisis passed so that whether they suck the line clear or try
to blow it clear, the crap would take the path of least resistance and
not fill up my basement.



Hi,
Wonder if area had heavy snow fall plugging up the vents?(remote chance)
Sewage back up is covered by insurance. I have check valve installed on
my basement drain. Here in June we had biggest flood in 45 years. My
daughter's basement was total loss due to sewage back up. Tallied damage
was almost !00K which insurance co. paid reluctantly. Feel sorry about
folks who suffered over flowing surface water damage. Daughter had a
sump pump but when power went out... Now she has new pump with battery
and gen set back up installed for the next time in case...

In article ,
Unquestionably Confused wrote:

I wonder though if the city was actually cautioning him about the storm
sewers. Floor drain in the basement is generally (again GENERALLY) not
supposed to be tied in the the sanitary sewer line which is vent,
however it if is -as may well be the case here (hence the city's
concern) - I don't think that that sewer drain is tied into the vent
stack in the house. Perhaps it's supposed to be but I've seen too many
where it's not.

The email from the city specifcially mentioned waste water sewer and
warned of sewer gasses getting into house. Wouldn't both of those
together indicate not a storm sewer??


If I was the original poster, I would check to make sure there's water
in the p-traps and if I wasn't absolutely sure that the basement drain
was NOT connected to the affected line, I'd install a pressure plug
until the crisis passed so that whether they suck the line clear or try
to blow it clear, the crap would take the path of least resistance and
not fill up my basement.

How would I do that?
--
³Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital.²
‹ Aaron Levenstein

Kurt,

My problem is that we are traveling while they are working on it. Trying
to figure out if I need to have the neighbor wander through a couple of
times a day or not.

Why? You can fill the P traps and air out any smell when you return from
your trip. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Dave M.

On 12/17/2013 9:17 PM, Snag wrote:
Bob F wrote:
David L. Martel wrote:
Kurt,

Just do what they tell you. If you smell sewer gas, run the
water in all of your sinks and tubs to refill the P traps. Takes
about 10 seconds per fixture.


Don't forget floor drains in the basement. They may or may not be
connected to the sewer.

Actually , if the drains are properly vented there's no way a vacuum
in the system can suck the p-traps dry .


I've seen a situation where high winds blowing across a roof will create
a vacuum in the vent stacks and suck all the P-traps dry. ^_^

TDD

On 12/17/2013 11:34 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 12/17/2013 10:11 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:


Don't forget floor drains in the basement. They may or may
not be connected to the sewer.


Actually , if the drains are properly vented there's no way a
vacuum in the system can suck the p-traps dry .

Hmmm, According to law of physics, I'd say. Any thing can happen
to any thing any time.

According to the laws of physics, perhaps you're correct. Highly
unusual for it to occur though if the caveat "PROPERLY VENTED" is
accurate.

I wonder though if the city was actually cautioning him about the
storm sewers. Floor drain in the basement is generally (again
GENERALLY) not supposed to be tied in the the sanitary sewer line
which is vent, however it if is -as may well be the case here
(hence the city's concern) - I don't think that that sewer drain is
tied into the vent stack in the house. Perhaps it's supposed to be
but I've seen too many where it's not.

If I was the original poster, I would check to make sure there's
water in the p-traps and if I wasn't absolutely sure that the
basement drain was NOT connected to the affected line, I'd install
a pressure plug until the crisis passed so that whether they suck
the line clear or try to blow it clear, the crap would take the
path of least resistance and not fill up my basement.

Hi, Wonder if area had heavy snow fall plugging up the vents?(remote
chance) Sewage back up is covered by insurance. I have check valve
installed on my basement drain. Here in June we had biggest flood in
45 years. My daughter's basement was total loss due to sewage back
up. Tallied damage was almost !00K which insurance co. paid
reluctantly. Feel sorry about folks who suffered over flowing surface
water damage. Daughter had a sump pump but when power went out... Now
she has new pump with battery and gen set back up installed for the
next time in case...

There is an emergency sump pump system that's run by city water. I
looked in to getting one for an old(90) customer of mine before I became
too ill to do physical labor. ^_^

http://www.basepump.com/Products/Basepump.html

TDD

In article ,
"David L. Martel" wrote:

Kurt,

My problem is that we are traveling while they are working on it. Trying
to figure out if I need to have the neighbor wander through a couple of
times a day or not.

Why? You can fill the P traps and air out any smell when you return from
your trip. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Dave M.

That is part of what I was wondering about. Although ehow.com
suggested that there could be a buildup of methane causing the
possibility of an explosion. That and the kids are flying back while Kay
and I are driving and I don't want to have to Child#2 deal with it when
I am still 600-700 miles away (or more to point I don't want to have to
deal with C#2.... )
--
³Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital.²
‹ Aaron Levenstein

On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 11:47:32 PM UTC-5, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 12/17/2013 10:11 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:





Don't forget floor drains in the basement. They may or may not be

connected to the sewer.





Actually , if the drains are properly vented there's no way a

vacuum in

the system can suck the p-traps dry .



Hmmm,

According to law of physics, I'd say. Any thing can happen to any thing

any time.



According to the laws of physics, perhaps you're correct. Highly

unusual for it to occur though if the caveat "PROPERLY VENTED" is accurate.



The only way it could happen would be for there to be a vacuum
large enough so that the air from the various vents would not
be sufficient to reduce it enough and there was still enough
vacuum to pull the water from the traps. Given that we're not
talking about just one house, but presumably many houses, it
would sure seem to me that either a lot of houses would have
to have no venting or it would have to be one hell of a vacuum
being created on the sewer main. I don't see why they would be
creating any substantial vacuum to begin with.

On 12/18/2013 5:57 AM, Kurt Ullman wrote:
If I was the original poster, I would check to make sure there's water
in the p-traps and if I wasn't absolutely sure that the basement drain
was NOT connected to the affected line, I'd install a pressure plug
until the crisis passed so that whether they suck the line clear or try
to blow it clear, the crap would take the path of least resistance and
not fill up my basement.

How would I do that?


See if you can remove the grate or drain screen on your floor drain.
Most are removable.

Any Big Box or decent hardware store will have a suitable plug in the
plumbing section. It's nothing more than a 3" high or so rubber "cork"
slightly smaller in diameter than the sewer pipe. The rubber has a
metal "washer" on the bottom and top and a threaded rod in the center.
You insert the plug in the sewer/drain and snug it down with a wrench
which expands the plug (the outside diameter of which has little rubber
ridges to grip tightly) and effectively closes off the drain. Nothing
passes either way.

In article ,
Unquestionably Confused wrote:


Any Big Box or decent hardware store will have a suitable plug in the
plumbing section. It's nothing more than a 3" high or so rubber "cork"
slightly smaller in diameter than the sewer pipe. The rubber has a
metal "washer" on the bottom and top and a threaded rod in the center.
You insert the plug in the sewer/drain and snug it down with a wrench
which expands the plug (the outside diameter of which has little rubber
ridges to grip tightly) and effectively closes off the drain. Nothing
passes either way.

We have a finished basement and I honestly can't remember seeing
anything that looks like that. Is it buried under the carpet?
--
³Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital.²
‹ Aaron Levenstein

to be better safe than sorry have neighbor walk thru a couple times a day, and to prevent a explosion leave a window on the top floor open just a little, so even if gas somehow accumulated it would have somewhere to go methane is lighter than air so it will naturally go to the highes spot in the building. Leave all interior doors open for free air flow.

and let neighbor doing walk thru know why window is open a little and all interior doors are open

On 12/18/2013 8:25 AM, wrote:


The only way it could happen would be for there to be a vacuum
large enough so that the air from the various vents would not
be sufficient to reduce it enough and there was still enough
vacuum to pull the water from the traps. Given that we're not
talking about just one house, but presumably many houses, it
would sure seem to me that either a lot of houses would have
to have no venting or it would have to be one hell of a vacuum
being created on the sewer main. I don't see why they would be
creating any substantial vacuum to begin with.

If they are working in a primary chase, they will want to rapidly
remove the toxic gases (will kill you if inhaled) out of the
system as rapidly as possible, and keep a fresh air inlet open
while the vacuum is applied. A lot of this is overkill, but the
hazard is there.

On 12/18/2013 8:25 AM, wrote:


The only way it could happen would be for there to be a vacuum
large enough so that the air from the various vents would not
be sufficient to reduce it enough and there was still enough
vacuum to pull the water from the traps.

Oh, to play the nit picker...

The vacuum does not pull the water. The water is pushed. :-)

Kurt Ullman wrote:
The HOA just sent out an email that there has been a sewer collapse
and that the city was working on it. The city told the HOA that some
might have problems with sewer gas getting into the house during the
fixing because the workers would create a vaccum that might pull the
water from the pipes in the house and that we should run water if we
smelt gas. How far away from the construction should I be before I
don't really need to worry about it?

I just recently received a notice from my town about work they were going to
do on the sewer lines on my street during one day only. The notice said
they were re-lining the main sewer lines using some kind of chemical/plastic
compound that is applied to the inside of the sewer lines and quickly dries.
They said they would have to shut off the sewer lines briefly during the
day. And, they said that the chemical smell is sort of like nail polish
remover. They said that if the homeowners smelled the chemical smell inside
their home to be sure to add water to the traps by running the water at each
fixture briefly. I could smell the chemical outside while they were doing
the work, but not i my house.

What they are about to do in your development sounds like no big deal to me.
Just do what they said about re-filling the traps in the unlikely event that
you smell sewer gas in your home.

Since you are in a condo complex, I doubt that there are any basement floor
drains in your property. I thought that they were prohibited by more recent
building codes, but I am not sure.

Since you said you will be away, and you want to be sure there is no problem
while you are away, there is an easy solution. For each sink and tub, just
leave the cold water on with a tiny drip -- something very slow, like a drop
or two at a time -- while you are away. In the highly unlikely event that
the traps do get low or emptied by the sewer work, the very slow drip will
automatically re-fill each trap. That seems like unnecessary overkill to
me, but if you are truly concerned, that will solve your concern.
personally, I would not worry about it.

Or, if you wanted, you could ask a neighbor or two to keep an eye out
(actually a nose out) for the smell of any sewer gases in their homes while
the work is going on. Then, if they do smell something in their home(s),
you could have them contact you by phone or maybe have them go in a re-fill
the traps in your home. But, if they don't smell anything in their home, I
see no reason to have them going into your home at all, let alone several
times a days.

Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
"David L. Martel" wrote:

Kurt,

My problem is that we are traveling while they are working on it. Trying
to figure out if I need to have the neighbor wander through a couple of
times a day or not.

Why? You can fill the P traps and air out any smell when you return from
your trip. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Dave M.

That is part of what I was wondering about. Although ehow.com
suggested that there could be a buildup of methane causing the
possibility of an explosion.

....snip...

IMO there is no worse source for information than ehow.

Do yourself a favor. Pick a couple of subjects that you know a lot about.
Look up those subjects on ehow. Decide for yourself if the information on
ehow is worth the disk space it's stored on.

I can't tell you how many times I've read stuff on ehow that was at best so
general as to be not worth reading or at worst completely wrong, such as
the R&R instructions for a car part where ehow had the model/year
incorrect. Their instructions weren't even close.

On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 11:43:01 AM UTC-5, Irreverent Maximus wrote:
On 12/18/2013 8:25 AM, wrote:





The only way it could happen would be for there to be a vacuum

large enough so that the air from the various vents would not

be sufficient to reduce it enough and there was still enough

vacuum to pull the water from the traps.



Oh, to play the nit picker...



The vacuum does not pull the water. The water is pushed. :-)

Idle speculation: if the vacuum got the water started over the top of the P-trap, a siphon would be created that would not stop until all the water had been removed.

On 12/18/2013 10:32 PM, TimR wrote:
On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 11:43:01 AM UTC-5, Irreverent Maximus wrote:
On 12/18/2013 8:25 AM, wrote:





The only way it could happen would be for there to be a vacuum

large enough so that the air from the various vents would not

be sufficient to reduce it enough and there was still enough

vacuum to pull the water from the traps.



Oh, to play the nit picker...



The vacuum does not pull the water. The water is pushed. :-)

Idle speculation: if the vacuum got the water started over the top of the P-trap, a siphon would be created that would not stop until all the water had been removed.


Or, until the trap is empty enough to allow air from above the trap to
pass through. This would break the siphon, and any further water
evacuation would be via venturi like mechanics. A strong enough
air flow could possibly lift ripplets of water and take them away.
Plus, the air flow could increase evaporation.

On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 11:40:27 PM UTC-5, Irreverent Maximus wrote:

Idle speculation: if the vacuum got the water started over the top of the P-trap, a siphon would be created that would not stop until all the water had been removed.





Or, until the trap is empty enough to allow air from above the trap to

pass through. This would break the siphon, and any further water

evacuation would be via venturi like mechanics. A strong enough

air flow could possibly lift ripplets of water and take them away.

Plus, the air flow could increase evaporation.

Also I suspect water in a trap is not an impenetrable barrier to gases.

I shouldn't say what my evidence is for that.

Oh, all right, I will. When I was in college I once saw a gadget the kids called a bong, I dunno if it has an engineering name. I'm not sure the usage is entirely legal.

It had a trap filled with smelly water, but differential pressure was sufficient to pull heated air through water and out the top.

I've also run into a case where the exhaust fan on a bathroom seemed to be able to pull sewer smell up through traps even though they were kept full. The door fit too tightly and/or the fan was too strong.

On 12/19/2013 7:20 AM, TimR wrote:
On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 11:40:27 PM UTC-5, Irreverent Maximus
wrote:

Idle speculation: if the vacuum got the water started over the
top of the P-trap, a siphon would be created that would not stop
until all the water had been removed.

[snip]

Oh, all right, I will. When I was in college I once saw a gadget the
kids called a bong, I dunno if it has an engineering name. I'm not
sure the usage is entirely legal.

It had a trap filled with smelly water, but differential pressure was
sufficient to pull heated air through water and out the top.

However it did not have an operable vent stack between the trap and the
orifice to which you applied the necessary vacuum. If you recall
otherwise it must have been some really good heated airg

On Thursday, December 19, 2013 8:36:59 AM UTC-5, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 12/19/2013 7:20 AM, TimR wrote:

On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 11:40:27 PM UTC-5, Irreverent Maximus

wrote:



Idle speculation: if the vacuum got the water started over the

top of the P-trap, a siphon would be created that would not stop

until all the water had been removed.



[snip]



Oh, all right, I will. When I was in college I once saw a gadget the

kids called a bong, I dunno if it has an engineering name. I'm not

sure the usage is entirely legal.



It had a trap filled with smelly water, but differential pressure was

sufficient to pull heated air through water and out the top.



However it did not have an operable vent stack between the trap and the

orifice to which you applied the necessary vacuum. If you recall

otherwise it must have been some really good heated airg

Sigh, and completely different settup. It's kind of the reverse of a
P-trap. It's designed to let AIR pass through water. If it was
designed like a P-trap with a blocked vent, you'd be sucking the
water out until you finally got to the air.

On Thursday, December 19, 2013 10:34:33 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Sigh, and completely different settup. It's kind of the reverse of a

P-trap.

It's certainly a U-trap though, and even in a plumbing P trap all the water is in the U.

Hmmm.......?

On Thursday, December 19, 2013 2:48:47 PM UTC-5, TimR wrote:
On Thursday, December 19, 2013 10:34:33 AM UTC-5, wrote:

Sigh, and completely different settup. It's kind of the reverse of a



P-trap.



It's certainly a U-trap though, and even in a plumbing P trap all the water is in the U.



Hmmm.......?

Why don't you think of the design of the two, how they operate
and get back to us. For starters, a bong is not a U trap. It's
not designed to block air/gas flow. It's designed to make air with
burning smoke bubble up through water when pulled via a vacuum.
So to say that because a bong passes smoke as it's designed to do
somehow means that a P trap isn't effective at sealing out gases
makes no sense.

On Thursday, December 19, 2013 3:06:58 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, December 19, 2013 2:48:47 PM UTC-5, TimR wrote:

On Thursday, December 19, 2013 10:34:33 AM UTC-5, wrote:



Sigh, and completely different settup. It's kind of the reverse of a







P-trap.







It's certainly a U-trap though, and even in a plumbing P trap all the water is in the U.







Hmmm.......?



Why don't you think of the design of the two, how they operate

and get back to us. For starters, a bong is not a U trap. It's

not designed to block air/gas flow. It's designed to make air with

burning smoke bubble up through water when pulled via a vacuum.

So to say that because a bong passes smoke as it's designed to do

somehow means that a P trap isn't effective at sealing out gases

makes no sense.

The pressure at the bottom of an inch of water is ,036 psi

How much vacuum do you think it would take to pull a gas up through an inch of water (or less) in a trap?