I am finishing my basement and want to remove a support post. It is a
split level house and has a hidden beam in the basement now which consists
of 4-2x10 in the middle of the house. The house is 24' wide. It supports
the main floor and the roof. I am in southern Minnesota so there is a good
amount of snow. I would like to use a steel I beam to keep the most head
room I can. If I could get a 6" beam to do the job it would be best but an
8 inch would be ok. I know that I will need an engineer to size the beam
before I do this but I would like to get an idea of how much it will cost
to see if it is worth doing before I spend money on an engineer. Thanks

--

On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 02:44:01 +0000, Thumper
wrote:

I am finishing my basement and want to remove a support post. It is a
split level house and has a hidden beam in the basement now which consists
of 4-2x10 in the middle of the house. The house is 24' wide. It supports
the main floor and the roof. I am in southern Minnesota so there is a good
amount of snow. I would like to use a steel I beam to keep the most head
room I can. If I could get a 6" beam to do the job it would be best but an
8 inch would be ok. I know that I will need an engineer to size the beam
before I do this but I would like to get an idea of how much it will cost
to see if it is worth doing before I spend money on an engineer. Thanks

I start here, but you're really should have an engineer to sign off on
it.

http://www.awc.org/calculators/span/calc/timbercalcstyle.asp?species=Eastern+Hemlock-Balsam+Fir&size=2x6&grade=Stud&member=Ceiling+Jois ts&deflectionlimit=L%2F360&spacing=16&wet=No&incis ed=No&liveload=20&snowload=-1&deadload=10&submit=Calculate+Maximum+Horizontal+ Span

Another interesting site I use for many similar things:

http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/sagulator.htm

"Thumper" wrote in message
roups.com...
I am finishing my basement and want to remove a support post. It is a
split level house and has a hidden beam in the basement now which consists
of 4-2x10 in the middle of the house. The house is 24' wide. It supports
the main floor and the roof. I am in southern Minnesota so there is a good
amount of snow. I would like to use a steel I beam to keep the most head
room I can. If I could get a 6" beam to do the job it would be best but an
8 inch would be ok. I know that I will need an engineer to size the beam
before I do this but I would like to get an idea of how much it will cost
to see if it is worth doing before I spend money on an engineer. Thanks

12" Steel I beam for 14'

Get ur welder out and make a few steel trusses. Lighter but springy..
the kids will enjoy the new trampoline

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-Steel-lea...-/221306733711

"Thumper" wrote in
message roups.com...

. . . I would like to use a steel I beam to keep the most head
room I can. If I could get a 6" beam to do the job it would be best but an
8 inch would be ok. I know that I will need an engineer to size the beam
before I do this but I would like to get an idea of how much it will cost
to see if it is worth doing before I spend money on an engineer. Thanks

You can probably estimate materials cost, based on information from
the local building permits office. In Ontario building code information
is usually free from knowledgeable staff. (But permits cost money
and time, and this does not enable you to estimate installation costs.)

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

Consider bolting steel plates on each side of the existing beam. I.e., make a sandwich. Lot less work than 'remove and replace'.
Ivan Vegvary

replying to Hot-Text , Thumper wrote:
billyrferrell wrote:

"Thumper" wrote in
message
roups.com...
12" Steel I beam for 14'



Ok but at what weight? It makes a big difference in cost.

--

"Ivan Vegvary" wrote in message
...

Consider bolting steel plates on each side of the existing beam. I.e., make
a sandwich. Lot less work than 'remove and replace'.
Ivan Vegvary

Ivan has the most practical way and the least cost and amount of work. He
beat me to answering this. WW

"WW" wrote in message
...


"Ivan Vegvary" wrote in message
...

Consider bolting steel plates on each side of the existing beam. I.e.,
make a sandwich. Lot less work than 'remove and replace'.
Ivan Vegvary

Ivan has the most practical way and the least cost and amount of work.
He beat me to answering this. WW

That does not address the origional problem.

I think what the person wants to do is replace a wood beam that is 10 inches
thick with something that is 6 inches or maybe 8 inches thick to get more
head room.

replying to Thumper, thumper wrote:
Thumper wrote:

I am finishing my basement and want to remove a support post. It is a split
level house and has a hidden beam in the basement now which consists of
4-2x10
in the middle of the house. The house is 24' wide. It supports the main
floor
and the roof.



My 10" beam is hidden meaning the bottom of it is flush with the bottom of
my floor joists I want to remove a post in the middle so I want to put a
new beam under the old one.

--

On 11/18/2013 1:06 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

Consider bolting steel plates on each side of the existing beam. I.e.,
make a sandwich. Lot less work than 'remove and replace'.
Ivan Vegvary

Ivan has the most practical way and the least cost and amount of work.
He beat me to answering this. WW

That does not address the origional problem.

I think what the person wants to do is replace a wood beam that is 10 inches
thick with something that is 6 inches or maybe 8 inches thick to get more
head room.

He wanted to eliminate a center support as primary, headroom would be
secondary if possible. . This may allow for that. I have a similar
situation in my family room. I've lived with it for 32 years, but at
times I think I'd like to get rid of it adding a steel beam. There are
three other supports, but they do not intrude and can be left alone.

On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 18:44:01 +0000, thumper
wrote:

replying to Thumper, thumper wrote:
Thumper wrote:

I am finishing my basement and want to remove a support post. It is a split
level house and has a hidden beam in the basement now which consists of
4-2x10
in the middle of the house. The house is 24' wide. It supports the main
floor
and the roof.



My 10" beam is hidden meaning the bottom of it is flush with the bottom of
my floor joists I want to remove a post in the middle so I want to put a
new beam under the old one.

If it was mine, I'd leave it alone. If that post is in the way of a
doorway or something, put a new post on both sides of the existing post
and then remove it. But I personally think it's best to leave the
existing one alone and work around it. You might damage your whole
house, is that worth the risk?

wrote:
On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 18:44:01 +0000, thumper
wrote:

replying to Thumper, thumper wrote:
Thumper wrote:

I am finishing my basement and want to remove a support post. It is a split
level house and has a hidden beam in the basement now which consists of
4-2x10
in the middle of the house. The house is 24' wide. It supports the main
floor
and the roof.



My 10" beam is hidden meaning the bottom of it is flush with the bottom of
my floor joists I want to remove a post in the middle so I want to put a
new beam under the old one.

If it was mine, I'd leave it alone. If that post is in the way of a
doorway or something, put a new post on both sides of the existing post
and then remove it. But I personally think it's best to leave the
existing one alone and work around it. You might damage your whole
house, is that worth the risk?

The risk is minimal if the project is engineered correctly. Not only the
beam size, but the process used to install it.

Bigger projects than this are done every day, all across the globe. Houses
on the Jersey Shore were lifted up and placed on top of 10 ft piers after
Sandy nearly wiped them out. Now that's what I call "risk"!

Seriously, properly adding a properly specced beam to facilitate the
removal of a post is really not that risky.

On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 10:04:38 -0500, "Don Phillipson"
wrote:

"Thumper" wrote in
message roups.com...

. . . I would like to use a steel I beam to keep the most head
room I can. If I could get a 6" beam to do the job it would be best but an
8 inch would be ok. I know that I will need an engineer to size the beam
before I do this but I would like to get an idea of how much it will cost
to see if it is worth doing before I spend money on an engineer. Thanks

You can probably estimate materials cost, based on information from
the local building permits office. In Ontario building code information
is usually free from knowledgeable staff. (But permits cost money
and time, and this does not enable you to estimate installation costs.)

This is probably the best advice here. They're going to want to see
what they want to see, no matter what's "right". It's also best not
to **** them off, if it can be avoided.

On 11/18/2013 4:13 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

If it was mine, I'd leave it alone. If that post is in the way of a
doorway or something, put a new post on both sides of the existing post
and then remove it. But I personally think it's best to leave the
existing one alone and work around it. You might damage your whole
house, is that worth the risk?

The risk is minimal if the project is engineered correctly. Not only the
beam size, but the process used to install it.

Bigger projects than this are done every day, all across the globe. Houses
on the Jersey Shore were lifted up and placed on top of 10 ft piers after
Sandy nearly wiped them out. Now that's what I call "risk"!

Seriously, properly adding a properly specced beam to facilitate the
removal of a post is really not that risky.


My step-father was a builder/contractor and this was a simple job he'd
do before lunch. Once he asked if my brother and I could give him a
hand one Saturday. We lifted a living room floor by three feet. The
following week he removed the entire front wall of the brick row house
and rebuilt it.

Easy if you know how. Dangerous if you don't.

On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 20:50:50 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 11/18/2013 4:13 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

If it was mine, I'd leave it alone. If that post is in the way of a
doorway or something, put a new post on both sides of the existing post
and then remove it. But I personally think it's best to leave the
existing one alone and work around it. You might damage your whole
house, is that worth the risk?

The risk is minimal if the project is engineered correctly. Not only the
beam size, but the process used to install it.

Bigger projects than this are done every day, all across the globe. Houses
on the Jersey Shore were lifted up and placed on top of 10 ft piers after
Sandy nearly wiped them out. Now that's what I call "risk"!

Seriously, properly adding a properly specced beam to facilitate the
removal of a post is really not that risky.


My step-father was a builder/contractor and this was a simple job he'd
do before lunch. Once he asked if my brother and I could give him a
hand one Saturday. We lifted a living room floor by three feet. The
following week he removed the entire front wall of the brick row house
and rebuilt it.

Easy if you know how. Dangerous if you don't.

Hey, anything can be done, and can be done safely if the proper
materials, tools, and skills are used, but this could cost a fortune,
and seems very extravagant for simply removing a post. I've always
believed that an obstacle in the process of building something is just a
way to be creative, and include that obstacle in the finished result.

For example, I've built an enclosed patio around trees and loved the
final result. I built a lean-to addition on the rear of my garage,
where there is a small pond, and had to use some tricky angles to shape
it so it bordered that pond, with a narrow concrete walkway in between.
And yea, i have had to deal with poles inside buildings and also retain
things like toilets in unusual places, etc. Sometimes the best solution
is to use what's there and create around it.

Sure the post can be removed, but at what cost? (both in terms of
money, time, and other things like headroom, and springiness of the
floor above, not to mention there may be plaster cracks and other
unexpected things).

I am finishing my basement and want to remove a support post. It is
a split level house and has a hidden beam in the basement now which
consists of 4-2x10 in the middle of the house. The house is 24' wide.
It supports the main floor and the roof.

My 10" beam is hidden meaning the bottom of it is flush with the
bottom of my floor joists I want to remove a post in the middle so I
want to put a new beam under the old one.

If it was mine, I'd leave it alone. If that post is in the way of a
doorway or something, put a new post on both sides of the existing
post and then remove it. But I personally think it's best to leave
the existing one alone and work around it.

I agree, it's probably more trouble than it's worth. 14 feet is a long
span for a main support beam. A steel beam large enough to span that
distance and hold up that weight is going to be heavy. How will you get it
in the basement? What kind of headroom will you end up with under that
beam?

Then there is the matter of the footings. That beam won't hold itself up,
and the original footings are probably in the wrong place or undersized for
that point load. Are you prepared to cut into the concrete floor to form
and pour new footings? Will you have room for larger posts at each end to
support the longer beam?

I don't know where you are located, but you may also have to factor in
seismic concerns. How will you brace everything so it doesn't come crashing
down when the earth starts moving?

Anything is doable, but isn't always time or cost effective.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 09:18:28 -0700, HerHusband wrote:

...snip....
I don't know where you are located, but you may also have to factor in
seismic concerns. How will you brace everything so it doesn't come
crashing
down when the earth starts moving?

You just brought up a VERY important point. One does not plan on having an
earthquake in the middle of replacing their house's main support beam,
especially while being under it!

replying to Thumper, thumper wrote:
Thumper wrote:

I am finishing my basement and want to remove a support post. It is a split
level house and has a hidden beam in the basement now which consists of
4-2x10
in the middle of the house. The house is 24' wide. It supports the main
floor
and the roof. I am in southern Minnesota so there is a good amount of
snow. I
would like to use a steel I beam to keep the most head room I can. If I
could
get a 6" beam to do the job it would be best but an 8 inch would be ok. I
know
that I will need an engineer to size the beam before I do this but I would
like
to get an idea of how much it will cost to see if it is worth doing before
I
spend money on an engineer. Thanks




--
Ok I read my original post and realized I did not explained my self very
well. I took some pictures maybe they will help. The joists are 2x10 and
the center beam is 4-2x10 I want to remove the post and put a beam under
it that would span the whole 14'. I am not worried about getting it in the
building or hoisting it or the posts or the footing. I have access to skid
loaders jibs material lifts core drills and just about everything else I
could think I might need. I was hopping to get an idea of the size of the
beam for pricing materials.







--

On 11/19/2013 11:18 AM, HerHusband wrote:


My 10" beam is hidden meaning the bottom of it is flush with the
bottom of my floor joists I want to remove a post in the middle so I
want to put a new beam under the old one.

If it was mine, I'd leave it alone. If that post is in the way of a
doorway or something, put a new post on both sides of the existing
post and then remove it. But I personally think it's best to leave
the existing one alone and work around it.

I agree, it's probably more trouble than it's worth. 14 feet is a long
span for a main support beam. A steel beam large enough to span that
distance and hold up that weight is going to be heavy. How will you get it
in the basement? What kind of headroom will you end up with under that
beam?

Then there is the matter of the footings. That beam won't hold itself up,
and the original footings are probably in the wrong place or undersized for
that point load. Are you prepared to cut into the concrete floor to form
and pour new footings? Will you have room for larger posts at each end to
support the longer beam?

I don't know where you are located, but you may also have to factor in
seismic concerns. How will you brace everything so it doesn't come crashing
down when the earth starts moving?

Anything is doable, but isn't always time or cost effective.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com


You managed to pack a lot of negativity into one post. I have a similar
situation and I've lived with it for a long time, but I wish I'd have
done something years ago. If my beam was flush like his, I'd have done it.

Since the present beam is flush, it will not take up all that much head
space for the new beam below it. If he leaves the present beam in place
and adds the steel below it, no sponginess will be introduced.

This is really a simple project that can be done by two people and some
simple equipment. A 14' beam is not hard to handle either. I helped a
friend do a 28' span in his house, but I was 25 years younger then too.
You don't need brute strength, you need some smarts and a couple of
pipes to roll the beam on.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 19:44:01 +0000, thumper
wrote:


Ok I read my original post and realized I did not explained my self very
well. I took some pictures maybe they will help. The joists are 2x10 and
the center beam is 4-2x10 I want to remove the post and put a beam under
it that would span the whole 14'. I am not worried about getting it in the
building or hoisting it or the posts or the footing. I have access to skid
loaders jibs material lifts core drills and just about everything else I
could think I might need. I was hopping to get an idea of the size of the
beam for pricing materials.

Broken links fixed:

http://www.homeownershub.com/img/25

http://www.homeownershub.com/img/26

http://www.homeownershub.com/img/27

Oren wrote:
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 19:44:01 +0000, thumper
wrote:


Ok I read my original post and realized I did not explained my self very
well. I took some pictures maybe they will help. The joists are 2x10 and
the center beam is 4-2x10 I want to remove the post and put a beam under
it that would span the whole 14'. I am not worried about getting it in the
building or hoisting it or the posts or the footing. I have access to skid
loaders jibs material lifts core drills and just about everything else I
could think I might need. I was hopping to get an idea of the size of the
beam for pricing materials.

Broken links fixed:

http://www.homeownershub.com/img/25

http://www.homeownershub.com/img/26

http://www.homeownershub.com/img/27

The first thing that caught my eye was the U configuration of the ductwork.

DerbyDad03 wrote:
Oren wrote:
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 19:44:01 +0000, thumper
wrote:


Ok I read my original post and realized I did not explained my self very
well. I took some pictures maybe they will help. The joists are 2x10 and
the center beam is 4-2x10 I want to remove the post and put a beam under
it that would span the whole 14'. I am not worried about getting it in the
building or hoisting it or the posts or the footing. I have access to skid
loaders jibs material lifts core drills and just about everything else I
could think I might need. I was hopping to get an idea of the size of the
beam for pricing materials.

Broken links fixed:

http://www.homeownershub.com/img/25

http://www.homeownershub.com/img/26

http://www.homeownershub.com/img/27

The first thing that caught my eye was the U configuration of the ductwork.

....and that it seems like that wouldn't make for very efficient air flow.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 19:44:01 +0000, thumper
wrote:


--
Ok I read my original post and realized I did not explained my self very
well. I took some pictures maybe they will help. The joists are 2x10 and
the center beam is 4-2x10 I want to remove the post and put a beam under
it that would span the whole 14'. I am not worried about getting it in the
building or hoisting it or the posts or the footing. I have access to skid
loaders jibs material lifts core drills and just about everything else I
could think I might need. I was hopping to get an idea of the size of the
beam for pricing materials.






And how to you plan to get a skid loader in the basement? And get it out
too?

"thumper" wrote in message
roups.com...

--
Ok I read my original post and realized I did not explained my self very
well. I took some pictures maybe they will help. The joists are 2x10 and
the center beam is 4-2x10 I want to remove the post and put a beam under
it that would span the whole 14'. I am not worried about getting it in the
building or hoisting it or the posts or the footing. I have access to skid
loaders jibs material lifts core drills and just about everything else I
could think I might need. I was hopping to get an idea of the size of the
beam for pricing materials.






Keeping your original post in mind, do you have any documentation
(from drawings and such) or access to such? They beefed up that
beam for a reason. Either that is one hellacious load or they
went all out on caution. One would think that 4 2x10's would be
sufficient, but since you have two joist sections, and probably a
load bearing wall above this area, maybe they were not just playing
it safe. Personally I would have an engineer look at it.

However it turns out, that looks like a total PITA to replace if
you cannot take that post out with strengthening of the existing
structure. Too bad they did not use a glue-lam.

thumper wrote:
replying to Thumper, thumper wrote:
Thumper wrote:

I am finishing my basement and want to remove a support post. It is
a split level house and has a hidden beam in the basement now which
consists of 4-2x10 in the middle of the house. The house is 24'
wide. It supports the main floor and the roof. I am in southern
Minnesota so there is a good amount of snow. I would like to use a
steel I beam to keep the most head room I can. If I could get a 6"
beam to do the job it would be best but an 8 inch would be ok. I
know that I will need an engineer to size the beam before I do this
but I would like to get an idea of how much it will cost to see if
it is worth doing before I spend money on an engineer. Thanks

Ok I read my original post and realized I did not explained my self
very well. I took some pictures maybe they will help. The joists are
2x10 and the center beam is 4-2x10 I want to remove the post and put
a beam under it that would span the whole 14'. I am not worried about
getting it in the building or hoisting it or the posts or the
footing. I have access to skid loaders jibs material lifts core
drills and just about everything else I could think I might need. I
was hopping to get an idea of the size of the beam for pricing
materials.

The photos (with the links fixed by Oren) definitely help:


http://www.homeownershub.com/img/25
http://www.homeownershub.com/img/26
http://www.homeownershub.com/img/27



I didn't realize that your existing basement is completely unfinished and
that you have open access to everything, including the existing beam, the
basement ceiling joists, etc.



I am definitely no expert on this, but what I see is a "flush beam" (or is
it called a "flush header"?) that is made up of four 2x10's with the floor
joists attached to the beam with joist hangers.



What I am wondering is, wouldn't one option be to cut back the floor joists
and slip in possibly 2 more 2x10's that would be sistered/attached to the
side of the existing beam, and then re-attach the cutback floor joists to
the new wider beam with joist hangers?



I wasn't completely sure from your descriptions, but you did mean that the
existing beam now spans 24 feet and not 14 feet, correct? Or, did you mean
that the existing beam now spans 14 feet?



Either way, if you did my idea above (widening the existing beam), I think
you may need to cover the entire span of the existing beam from end to end.
So, if that is 24 feet, the added on width to the existing beam would cover
the entire 24 feet span. That would allow the main support to be on the
ends where it is now.



I think the real answer would be to spend a little money now and have a
structural engineer look at what you have and suggest what your alternatives
or options may be. Then, make a plan based on that information. I think
that would only cost a couple of hundred dollars -- maybe less to just look
at it, and more to actually do a design and some plans and specs.



There may be other options that involve adding steel, either below the
existing beam or sistered along the side of the existing beam.



Now that we have seen the photos, I hope you will get a structural engineer
to look at it and give you suggestions, and then post what the structural
engineer says.

I am finishing my basement and want to remove a support post. It is a
split level house and has a hidden beam in the basement now which
consists of 4-2x10 in the middle of the house. The house is 24' wide.
It supports the main floor and the roof. I am in southern Minnesota so
there is a good amount of snow. I would like to use a steel I beam to
keep the most head room I can. If I could get a 6" beam to do the job
it would be best but an 8 inch would be ok. I know that I will need an
engineer to size the beam before I do this but I would like to get an
idea of how much it will cost to see if it is worth doing before I
spend money on an engineer.

OK, just for kicks I thought I would run a few calculations. I am making a
few assumptions since the information you supplied was limited. I can't
guarantee this is accurate, but it should give you a rough idea of the beam
needed:

First floor:

40psf live load (the weight of people, furniture, etc.)
10psf dead load (the weight of the floor framing)

Bearing wall (holding up the attic joists and/or roof):

10psf dead load (the weight of the wall framing)

Attic:

20psf live load (limited attic storage)
10psf dead load (the weight of the ceiling framing)

Roof:

10psf dead load (the weight of the roof framing)
40psf live load (snow weight, this may vary depending on your location)

That gives a total of about 140psf.

You said your house was 24 feet wide, so 24x140 = 3360 pounds per lineal
foot.

Half of that is carried by the outside walls, so the beam would carry 1680
pounds per lineal foot.

You said the span of the beam is 14 feet, so 14x1680 = 23520 pounds on that
beam.

Looking at my beam charts you would need a 14"x14" solid wood beam with a
species that has a 1400 PSI fiber stress (to keep deflection below 1/360).

As I suspected, that is a huge beam. You could use steel to reduce the
size, but I don't have any charts for steel beams. 14 feet is just a
really long span for a main support beam.

If your roof is framed with trusses, the loads would be slightly lower
since truss roofs are usually supported by the exterior walls.

If your attic is a living space, you would need to increase the live load
for the attic.

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

Hi I Am constructing a home, where hall length size is 20 feet , how much could be the size of steel beam will do. and rest all 12 feet length for rooms and all. and this is for single store house.

this is definetely a project that requires a structural engineer, and a building permit.

trying to avoid either risks a disaster.....


just my 2 cent.......

every few years someone working on their home has one collapse..

On Saturday, August 16, 2014 7:19:43 AM UTC-4, bob haller wrote:
this is definetely a project that requires a structural engineer, and a building permit.



trying to avoid either risks a disaster.....





just my 2 cent.......



every few years someone working on their home has one collapse..

Plus, unless you're doing something very unusual, why would you need 12 ft steel beams for "rooms and all"? Typically steel is only for special applications that require carrying the higher load than can be achieved with wood in the same space.

On 8/16/2014 7:19 AM, bob haller wrote:
this is definetely a project that requires a structural engineer, and a building permit.

trying to avoid either risks a disaster.....


just my 2 cent.......

every few years someone working on their home has one collapse..


There are some standard of beam size and span permitted. You may not
need an engineer on a typical structure, but you don't want to skimp at
all.

wrote in
:

Hi I Am constructing a home, where hall length size is 20 feet , how
much could be the size of steel beam will do. and rest all 12 feet
length for rooms and all. and this is for single store house.


Gets beam info here.

Problem down the road with sagging, cracks, or worse.

"But I got the correct sizing on the Internet."

If the span is only 14' why can't you twin the existing beam ...so each beam holds only one side of the floor load ...I am assuming by hidden beam you mean the joists are butted up to the beam... pick the easiest side ... shore up the floor joists and cut them short....nail and laminate the new members on to the existing beam ...use joist hangers to reattach joists ...remove temp shoring wall and nuisance post