On Saturday, August 30, 2014 9:06:20 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Friday, August 29, 2014 11:11:11 PM UTC-6, wrote:

The receptacle just has to be outside of the "tub space".



Thanks . The receptacles are located out of the tub space in both baths, about as far as they could possibly be from the tub.



I think someone asked about the outcome of the teenage girl I mentioned yesterday. I believe this happened in the late 1960s or early 1970s, when I was net yet a teenager myself. The girl was from a well-to-do family and was in the bathtub, simultaneously soaking and drying her hair with an electric dryer. Maybe one of the old fashioned hair net versions? The dryer fell in the bath water. She was electrocuted and died instantly. This was several miles from where I lived, different school district and all, but the papers reported on it amply. All the parents were talking about it. Of course they were saddened for the girls' family and went to some trouble to make sure it did not happen to their own kids.

I'd wonder about the dying after the hair dryer fell into the water. I
would think there is a much greater chance she killed herself while *holding*
it, then it fell into the water. If you're holding it while sitting in the
tub full of water, there is a direct path through you, across your heart,
to ground. If it just falls in the water, you, or at least most of you, especially the chest area, are typically not in the main ground path.

On Saturday, August 30, 2014 7:24:47 AM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, August 30, 2014 9:06:20 AM UTC-4, wrote:

On Friday, August 29, 2014 11:11:11 PM UTC-6, wrote:



The receptacle just has to be outside of the "tub space".







Thanks . The receptacles are located out of the tub space in both baths, about as far as they could possibly be from the tub.







I think someone asked about the outcome of the teenage girl I mentioned yesterday. I believe this happened in the late 1960s or early 1970s, when I was net yet a teenager myself. The girl was from a well-to-do family and was in the bathtub, simultaneously soaking and drying her hair with an electric dryer. Maybe one of the old fashioned hair net versions? The dryer fell in the bath water. She was electrocuted and died instantly. This was several miles from where I lived, different school district and all, but the papers reported on it amply. All the parents were talking about it. Of course they were saddened for the girls' family and went to some trouble to make sure it did not happen to their own kids.



I'd wonder about the dying after the hair dryer fell into the water. I
would think there is a much greater chance she killed herself while *holding*
it, then it fell into the water. If you're holding it while sitting in the
tub full of water, there is a direct path through you, across your heart,
to ground. If it just falls in the water, you, or at least most of you, especially the chest area, are typically not in the main ground path.

You're right. My wording does not do justice to the actual, physics-based cause. I see discussion on this point on the net today, including reports of more recent accidents and despite GFCI requirements. E.g. http://www.startribune.com/local/11961511.html

On 8/29/2014 10:37 PM, micky wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2014 13:19:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote:




That's the setup I have in my house built in 1979. I'm not positive
they had GFI receptacles then, maybe only breakers????

Our home was built in 1974. 200amp breaker panel and it does have a
GFCI breaker. That breaker is a "double wide" so from what I've picked
up from the OP's description, it sounds as if the current/previous
homeowner added a circuit or two and may have needed the space in the
panel. There goes the double wide GFCI and in its place are now two
regular breakers.

wrote:
On Friday, August 29, 2014 11:11:11 PM UTC-6, wrote:
The receptacle just has to be outside of the "tub space".

Thanks . The receptacles are located out of the tub space in both baths, about as far as they could possibly be from the tub.

I think someone asked about the outcome of the teenage girl I mentioned yesterday. I believe this happened in the late 1960s or early 1970s, when I was net yet a teenager myself. The girl was from a well-to-do family and was in the bathtub, simultaneously soaking and drying her hair with an electric dryer. Maybe one of the old fashioned hair net versions? The dryer fell in the bath water. She was electrocuted and died instantly. This was several miles from where I lived, different school district and all, but the papers reported on it amply. All the parents were talking about it. Of course they were saddened for the girls' family and went to some trouble to make sure it did not happen to their own kids.

Hmm,
Price of some mistake is so ultimately high. On next life she will never
do it again, Sigh. Now code specifies outlets, switches should
be located out of reach from bath tub. If not, switch has to be outside
the bath room. My last house had switch plate just outside wall of the
2nd bath room being little too small.

On Saturday, August 30, 2014 11:56:16 AM UTC-4, Tony Hwang wrote:
wrote:

On Friday, August 29, 2014 11:11:11 PM UTC-6, wrote:

The receptacle just has to be outside of the "tub space".



Thanks . The receptacles are located out of the tub space in both baths, about as far as they could possibly be from the tub.



I think someone asked about the outcome of the teenage girl I mentioned yesterday. I believe this happened in the late 1960s or early 1970s, when I was net yet a teenager myself. The girl was from a well-to-do family and was in the bathtub, simultaneously soaking and drying her hair with an electric dryer. Maybe one of the old fashioned hair net versions? The dryer fell in the bath water. She was electrocuted and died instantly. This was several miles from where I lived, different school district and all, but the papers reported on it amply. All the parents were talking about it. Of course they were saddened for the girls' family and went to some trouble to make sure it did not happen to their own kids.



Hmm,

Price of some mistake is so ultimately high. On next life she will never

do it again, Sigh. Now code specifies outlets, switches should

be located out of reach from bath tub. If not, switch has to be outside

the bath room. My last house had switch plate just outside wall of the

2nd bath room being little too small.

IDK what code says in Canada, but here in the USA I think the rule is
only that switches/outlets can't be in the actual wet areas of the tub
or shower. AFAIK, one on the wall, say outside a shower enclosure, but
still reachable, is permissible.

On Friday, August 29, 2014 5:57:00 PM UTC-6, Doug Miller wrote:
Get the tester. Plug it into one of the bathroom outlets. The lights on the tester should come on.

Hit the button. If the lights go off, you have GFCI protection somewhere. If they stay on, you don't.

Today I found one at Harbor Freight that cost me $5.13 after applying the 20% off coupon. See http://www.harborfreight.com/electri...sis-32907.html. This morning I put three new GCFI outlets in the garage, then tested all outlets in the house, inside and out. All works perfectly now and per the discussion here. Put the "GFCI protected" labels on the applicable outlets, and ready for re-inspection and/or report to the buyer as needed. That GFCI tester is too easy and inexpensive. I can see why folks are saying a home inspector ought to have one.

Thanks to all. I will as always try to pass on the good will from folks here to someone else in need.

On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 00:03:08 -0400, micky
wrote:

I am also replacing the two other outlets (not fed by the aforementioned panel breaker but by two other breakers) in the garage currently lacking GFCI with GFCI ones.

It won't kill you, not even financially, to replace more outlets than
need be,

You do say garage here, but I missed it and thought you meant the
bathrooms. So I retract the words "more than need be". Sorry.

On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 06:06:20 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, August 29, 2014 11:11:11 PM UTC-6, wrote:
The receptacle just has to be outside of the "tub space".

Thanks . The receptacles are located out of the tub space in both baths, about as far as they could possibly be from the tub.

I think someone asked about the outcome of the teenage girl I mentioned yesterday. I believe this happened in the late 1960s or early 1970s, when I was net yet a teenager myself. The girl was from a well-to-do family and was in the bathtub, simultaneously soaking and drying her hair with an electric dryer. Maybe one of the old fashioned hair net versions? The dryer fell in the bath water. She was electrocuted and died instantly. This was several miles from where I lived, different school district and all, but the papers reported on it amply. All the parents were talking about it. Of course they were saddened for the girls' family and went to some trouble to make sure it did not happen to their own kids.

That was me. Thanks for explaining. A very sad story.

Well-to-do make the same mistakes others do, it seems.

I knew a woman, who is an M.D. no less, whose little girl, I'm told,
drowned in the bathtub.

On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 06:42:51 -0700 (PDT), wrote:


=20
=20
I think someone asked about the outcome of the teenage girl I mentioned=
yesterday. I believe this happened in the late 1960s or early 1970s, when =
I was net yet a teenager myself. The girl was from a well-to-do family and =
was in the bathtub, simultaneously soaking and drying her hair with an elec=
tric dryer. Maybe one of the old fashioned hair net versions? The dryer fel=
l in the bath water. She was electrocuted and died instantly. This was seve=
ral miles from where I lived, different school district and all, but the pa=
pers reported on it amply. All the parents were talking about it. Of course=
they were saddened for the girls' family and went to some trouble to make =
sure it did not happen to their own kids.
=20
=20
=20
I'd wonder about the dying after the hair dryer fell into the water. I
would think there is a much greater chance she killed herself while *hold=
ing*
it, then it fell into the water. If you're holding it while sitting in t=
he
tub full of water, there is a direct path through you, across your heart,
to ground. If it just falls in the water, you, or at least most of you, =
especially the chest area, are typically not in the main ground path.

I've thought about this too. It seems to me that the most likely time
is when the dryer or something falls in, and the bather reaches for it
to throw it out again. Once he lifts it above the water line, his arm is
wet even if it wasn't before, there's water all over the inside of the
appliance, the water has soap and dirt and other things that make an
even better conductor of electricity than normal, and he's holding the
dryer.

It seems the best thing to do would be to avoid the electric appliance
and get yourself out of the tub asap.

But I'm not going to try this, in case I'm wrong.



You're right. My wording does not do justice to the actual, physics-based c=
ause. I see discussion on this point on the net today, including reports of=
more recent accidents and despite GFCI requirements. E.g. http://www.startribune.com/local/11961511.html

On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:03:08 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:



I don't believe the label means that the breaker at some other location

is GFCI. I don't believe it ever meant that.



I don't think so either, because there is no "other breaker". What
the "GFCI - garage" label means is that there is a GFCI located in
the garage that is part of that circuit. It's there so that if the lights go
out and you go investigating, you'll see the label in the panel and
know that there is a GFCI on that circuit that could be the reason for
the lights going out.





Doug, none of the outdoor outlets are GFCI outlets. They also all tie into the aforementioned breaker



What breaker? The one you turned off in the previous post? If so,

that's another reason I think it should be GFI.



He explained that the 2 baths, one garage outlet, and outside outlets
are all on that one breaker. There is no reason it has to
be GFCI. Around here, typically baths, garage, outside are protected by
using a GFCI outlet in the stream. It's usually a lot easier to push the
reset on a GFCI that you see all the time, eg in the bath. He's done
that and has a GFCI in the garage protecting all the stuff on that list.



It won't kill you, not even financially, to replace more outlets than

need be, but the way to tell which is the upstream recep is either to

believe the electrician, or to partially believe him and turn off the

breaker, take the one he says is the most upstream (the garage) take

that out and disconnect the outgoing hot wire from it, then turn the

breaker on again. If the garage outlet is dead, you disconnected the

wrong wire, the incoming hot wire.

He says that he's already been there and done that. You have him saying
it as part of your post, below:



Terry, correct, the one in the garage is first in the string of outlets that includes the two bathrooms and also, per discussion here, with my electrician neighbor and my further checking, the three outlets mounted on the outside of the house (with the special weather resistant covers).

On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 04:53:26 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:



What I found subsequently is that one breaker in my electrical panel is lab=

eled "GFI - Garage."



Is this a nicely printed label? IF so maybe it was there before the

breaker was replaced, and he reused it.

It's there so folks will see it and know that there is a GFCI in the
garage. The scenario is Joe finds that some receptacle, lights,
whatever aren't working. First thing Joe does is think it's the
breaker. Upon looking, he sees the label, so now he knows if it

I didn't know they used labels like that. I take back what I said. No
reason to think the breaker was replaced. Just the outlet.

involves that circuit, the other possible problem is the GFCI in the
garage.


For some reason, when my house

was less than 8 years old, the GFI breaker started tripping every couple

months for no reason. After I was convinced it was for no reason, I

replaced it and it hasn't tripped more than twice in 27 years. I think

each time I knew the reason.



Opening this breaker shuts off power to one outlet in =

the garage and both bathrooms' outlets. None of these three outlets have GF=

CI test and reset buttons.



That's the setup I have in my house built in 1979. I'm not positive

they had GFI receptacles then, maybe only breakers????



My breaker controls the recept. in 2 bathrooms and a powder room, on the

counter near the kitchen sink, and outside on the "patio". I suppose

it controls the outlet next to the laundry sink, into which is plugged

the clothes washer, but I've probably always reset the breaker long

before I wanted to wwash clothes.



That's a lot of loads for one circuit.

I guess so. OTOH, I rarely use any of them but one, so it's not so bad.

There's only one outdoor outlet, that I use for the electric lawnmower,
weedwacker, or hedge trimmer, but only one thing at a time.

But when I do that, I'm not using any power in the kitchen or the bath.
The bath has a tv, a clock radio, and a Powermid, so I can control the
tuner in the bedroom. (The Powermid xmitter is on an inline swtich,
because somehow it used to interfere with the remote control, even when
the lights were off and the door to the bathroom was shut.) So usually
only the clock is running. Like someone else, the outlets in the
bathrooms are as far from the tub or shower as they can be. Maybe 8
feet. They're right next to the sinks however, but I don't touch them
when my hands are wet.

Code today requires
the laundry room have it's own circuit. Not sure the history there,
but I don't think it's been code to have all that on one circuit for
a very long time.

I guess '79 qualifies as a very long time. The laundry room is
actually half the basement, with the furnace too. It was bult with
another outlet for the sump pump. I guess just those two.

I put 8 more in, 4 underneath the new work bench, none of which I've
ever used, and 4 above the work bench, all one circuit (I guess that's
bad) but I never use more than one tool at a time plus an overhead light
and a lamp. I just didn't want to have to plug and unplug things.




The breaker looks the same as all the other brea=

kers in the panel.



But my breaker certainly doesn't look the same. A) it has a test

button. It doesn't protrude and it's not very noticeable (same width

and color as the breaker face) but if you push it you can see the handle

of the breaker move to OFF. Then to reset, you have to move the handle

back even farther (to reset, or something like that.

That's because you have a GFCI breaker, Honda doesn't.

I get that now. Thanks.

On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 08:43:21 -0500, Unquestionably Confused
wrote:

On 8/29/2014 10:37 PM, micky wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2014 13:19:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote:




That's the setup I have in my house built in 1979. I'm not positive
they had GFI receptacles then, maybe only breakers????

Our home was built in 1974. 200amp breaker panel and it does have a
GFCI breaker. That breaker is a "double wide" so from what I've picked

FWIW, mine, from '79, is a single-wide. The breaker box is much bigger
than what is used so space couldn't have been a problem.

up from the OP's description, it sounds as if the current/previous
homeowner added a circuit or two and may have needed the space in the
panel. There goes the double wide GFCI and in its place are now two
regular breakers.