On Friday, November 1, 2013 3:15:02 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Forgot to add the extra piece of humble pie for me today: The panel did have a modification, adding wiring for the garage door opener and two garage outlets. It must have been done post the initial inspection of the house many years ago. The Romex connector was left off this modification. The three breakers were not labeled until I figured out what they powered just a little while ago.

FYI, GFCI protection has been required for garage outlets for
a long time, at least the 80's. So this should either be a GFCI
breaker or the first outlet in the daisychain in the garage should
be a GFCI outlet. That will protect it and anything downstream of
it. Not sure if the garage door openers need to be
on GFCI, they may be exempted.

Would be interesting to see if those are there and if the inspector
squaked it. Of course if it was an older home, before it was
required, then it's OK.

bud-- wrote:
On 11/1/2013 11:21 AM, TomR wrote:
bud-- wrote:
On 11/1/2013 9:40 AM, wrote:
On Friday, November 1, 2013 10:58:27 AM UTC-4,
wrote:
On Fri, 1 Nov 2013 05:24:18 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

I've seen newer panels on the Holmes TV show where the upper part
has it's own separate cover, that has to be removed in addition
to the main cover.

That is the code in Canada.

You can't install a panel horizontally here. If a circuit breaker is
installed vertically, "on" must be up. Half the breaker positions
would be wrong.

I am not sure what you meant by "here". But, if "here" means the
U.S., I think that the panel can be installed horizontally (although
I personally hate that).

And, although I am not completely sure, I think that the code (NEC)
says that the panel can be horizontal but the main service
disconnect (main breaker) has to be installed such that "On" is "Up"
and "Off" is "Down". I don't think that applies to each breaker --
just the main service disconnect switch.

The reason why I think that is that I recently had an electrician
install two new service panels. He put them both in upside down,
with the main breaker on the bottom and all of the individual
breakers above the main breaker. I hated that, but I looked it up
and apparently that was within code. I never thought to even ask
about right side up or upside down since I never saw one that was
upside down. However, for my own sanity (or neurosis), I had the
electrician change the panels to what I consider to be right side up
-- the main breaker on top and the individual breakers below the
main breaker. And, the reason why I mention this is that I am pretty sure
that I
was when researching this I found that the code does allow a
horizontal panel as long as the main breaker's "On" position is "Up"
and "Off" position is "Down".

"404.7 Indicating
General-use ... switches, circuit breakers, ... shall clearly indicate
whether they are in the open (off) or closed (on) position.
Where these switch or circuit breaker handles are operated vertically
rather than rotationally or horizontally, the up position of the
handle shall be the (on) position."

Thanks Bud. Looks like you are right. I guess I didn't remember correctly
what I had researched before.

Here are the NEC citations that I just found that appear to be applicable:


404.1 Scope. The provisions of this article shall apply to

all switches, switching devices, and circuit breakers where

used as switches.



404.7 Indicating. General-use and motor-circuit switches,

circuit breakers, and molded case switches, where mounted

in an enclosure as described in 404.3, shall clearly indicate

whether they are in the open (off) or closed (on) position.

Where these switch or circuit breaker handles are operated

vertically rather than rotationally or horizontally, the

up position of the handle shall be the (on) position.



Exception No. 1: Vertically operated double-throw

switches shall be permitted to be in the closed (on) position

with the handle in either the up or down position.



Exception No. 2: On busway installations, tap switches

employing a center-pivoting handle shall be permitted to be

open or closed with either end of the handle in the up or

down position. The switch position shall be clearly indicating

and shall be visible from the floor or from the usual

point of operation.



404.11 Circuit Breakers as Switches. A hand-operable

circuit breaker equipped with a lever or handle, or a poweroperated

circuit breaker capable of being opened by hand in

the event of a power failure, shall be permitted to serve as

a switch if it has the required number of poles.

FPN: See the provisions contained in 240.81 and 240.83.





ARTICLE 240-OVERCURRENT PROTECTION



240.33 Vertical Position. Enclosures for overcurrent devices

shall be mounted in a vertical position unless that is

shown to be impracticable. Circuit breaker enclosures shall be

permitted to be installed horizontally where the circuit breaker

is installed in accordance with 240.81. Listed busway plug-in

units shall be permitted to be mounted in orientations corresponding

to the busway mounting position.



VII. Circuit Breakers



240.80 Method of Operation. Circuit breakers shall be

trip free and capable of being closed and opened by manual

operation. Their normal method of operation by other than

manual means, such as electrical or pneumatic, shall be

permitted if means for manual operation are also provided.



240.81 Indicating. Circuit breakers shall clearly indicate

whether they are in the open "off" or closed "on" position.

Where circuit breaker handles are operated vertically

rather than rotationally or horizontally, the "up" position of

the handle shall be the "on" position.

wrote:
Forgot to add the extra piece of humble pie for me today: The panel
did have a modification, adding wiring for the garage door opener and
two garage outlets. It must have been done post the initial
inspection of the house many years ago. The Romex connector was left
off this modification. The three breakers were not labeled until I
figured out what they powered just a little while ago.

Thanks for the follow-up. It's always good to hear how it all worked out.

TomR wrote:
bud-- wrote:
On 11/1/2013 11:21 AM, TomR wrote:
bud-- wrote:

"404.7 Indicating
General-use ... switches, circuit breakers, ... shall clearly
indicate whether they are in the open (off) or closed (on) position.
Where these switch or circuit breaker handles are operated vertically
rather than rotationally or horizontally, the up position of the
handle shall be the (on) position."

Thanks Bud. Looks like you are right. I guess I didn't remember
correctly what I had researched before.

Here are the NEC citations that I just found that appear to be
applicable: . . . ,

P.S. I think I may have been confused in the past by the last citation
(240.33), the last line of which says, "Listed busway plug-in units shall be
permitted to be mounted in orientations corresponding to the busway mounting
position."

I think I assumed that meant that "listed busway plug-in units" (circuit
breakers?) could be mounted in the orientation that corresponds to how they
are plugged into the busbar.

But, I may have been misunderstanding what that sentence means since it
seems to conflict with the sentence before it.

ARTICLE 240-OVERCURRENT PROTECTION

240.33 Vertical Position.
Enclosures for overcurrent devices
shall be mounted in a vertical position unless that is
shown to be impracticable. Circuit breaker enclosures shall be
permitted to be installed horizontally where the circuit breaker
is installed in accordance with 240.81. Listed busway plug-in
units shall be permitted to be mounted in orientations corresponding
to the busway mounting position.

On 11/1/2013 11:38 AM, Bob_Villa wrote:
On Friday, November 1, 2013 7:39:34 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:



And, all rapper type teens are packing? Any teen
with droopy drawers, hat on sideways, flashing gang
hand signs. Got to be packing a nine.

Doesn't sound like Stormy?

50 plus, white, balding, wears belt and suspenders,
hat on forward, when wearing one, no gang signs,
no gang colors, doesn't wear sneakers or felony
shoes.

You be dissin me, blood, I bust cap on yo ah.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/1/2013 3:11 PM, wrote:

First update: What Scott says above and a bit
more. I called a local licensed, bonded and insured
electrician to get some kind of estimate on the
repair and an inspection of the panel. He said
email him the report photos and he could come out
for a free estimate. Twenty minutes later, he's
at the house. Twenty more minutes, $45, two
Halloween Snickers bars, later, he had the simple
Romex connector in, educated me a little in excellent
teaching style, inspected the panel, and invoiced
the charges. He left the breaker shut, said no big
deal, and had his hands on the sheathing of the
wires.

Sounds like a tech who knows what he's doing. I
sure hope you recommend him to every one you know.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Fri, 01 Nov 2013 17:29:04 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

And, all rapper type teens are packing? Any teen
with droopy drawers, hat on sideways, flashing gang
hand signs. Got to be packing a nine.

Doesn't sound like Stormy?

50 plus, white, balding, wears belt and suspenders,
hat on forward, when wearing one, no gang signs,
no gang colors, doesn't wear sneakers or felony
shoes.

You be dissin me, blood, I bust cap on yo ah.


Not convincing at all. Word!

The funniest thing I heard from a jitterbug banger, as he told
another..."nigga, yow mama got bad pussy!"

I lost it, right one the spot Well, almost. )

dgk wrote in
:

On Fri, 1 Nov 2013 05:31:09 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Friday, November 1, 2013 3:54:27 AM UTC-4, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Fri, 01 Nov 2013 01:16:14 -0400, wrote:



On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 21:25:28 -0700 (PDT),

wrote:



I am in the process of selling my house. What do you all think of
a home inspector who takes off the breaker box cover off (not just
opens the door to expose the breakers; he had to remove four
screws to get the cover off), exposes the wire connections, all
the while keeping the main breaker shut and so the insides of the
box remained electrically hot as he did a visual inspection and
took photos? The breaker box has a prominent sticker in it that
says to open the main breaker prior to removing the cover.



In his report, the inspector commented:

"Any electrical repairs attempted by anyone other than a licensed
electrician should be approached with caution. The power to the
entire house should be turned off prior to beginning any repair
efforts, no matter how trivial the repair may seem. ... Missing
strain relief at panel. Have a licensed electrician make further
evaluation and corrections as needed."



I am surprised first at how invasive this inspector was. Second at
how he ignored safe practices by not securing the power. Third
that he would have the gall to make judgments on the sufficiency
of the internals. Fourth that he would go a step further and
suggest he really does not know enough (so what's he doing in
there in the first place?); get a licensed electrician to
evaluate.



Home inspectors dance down the fine line of marginal competence in
the

trades they inspect and acting like an expert.

They need to put in the disclaimer that you need a professional to

back up just about anything they say.





And they MUST find something wrong to report in order to justify the

expense of the inspection. My advise to people who are selling is
to

make sure at least one switch is broken and at least one easy to

repair faucet leaks, or something along the lines, so the inspector

won't have too look to hard to find his "justification nuggets".

LOL. I've thought about that too. With an average house, the
home inspection is essentially free to the buyer, because as you
say, the inspector usually finds at least a few things that can
take $400 of the price of the sale. But if you have a house
with few problems, it's an interesting idea to leave a few simple
things that you know about, that you can fix yourself later,
etc, just so the inspector will find something to make the buyer
feel like they did find some things.

The sad ones of course are the ones where the inspector spots
some trivial stuff and completely misses obvious major stuff
that was readily visible. You see that on the Holmes TV show
in Canada.

That's pretty funny. Maybe Home Depot can sell defective washers

They have other kinds?

so we
can replace them with good ones after the inspection.

On 11/1/2013 5:42 PM, Oren wrote:

Doesn't sound like Stormy?

50 plus, white, balding, wears belt and suspenders,
hat on forward, when wearing one, no gang signs,
no gang colors, doesn't wear sneakers or felony
shoes.

You be dissin me, blood, I bust cap on yo ah.


Not convincing at all. Word!

The funniest thing I heard from a jitterbug banger, as he told
another..."nigga, yow mama got bad pussy!"

I lost it, right one the spot Well, almost. )

Yo, home. Choo all calling me a bro? I ain go
take it from yo, blood. You all be dissin dis
hee nig won mo tahm, no ahm sayin? I ain no
porch monkey, my ass be cracker to the co.

http://www.ckhid.com/wp-content/uplo...ic-video_1.jpg

Seff potrat.

--
..
Christophe A. Yo
Learn about J
www.lds.o

..

On Fri, 01 Nov 2013 18:25:32 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 11/1/2013 5:42 PM, Oren wrote:

Doesn't sound like Stormy?

50 plus, white, balding, wears belt and suspenders,
hat on forward, when wearing one, no gang signs,
no gang colors, doesn't wear sneakers or felony
shoes.

You be dissin me, blood, I bust cap on yo ah.


Not convincing at all. Word!

The funniest thing I heard from a jitterbug banger, as he told
another..."nigga, yow mama got bad pussy!"

I lost it, right one the spot Well, almost. )

Yo, home. Choo all calling me a bro? I ain go
take it from yo, blood. You all be dissin dis
hee nig won mo tahm, no ahm sayin? I ain no
porch monkey, my ass be cracker to the co.

http://www.ckhid.com/wp-content/uplo...ic-video_1.jpg

Seff potrat.

Word up! I heard dat

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Business/images-3/redneck-toilet.jpg

On 11/1/2013 3:11 PM, wrote:

Second update: I feel like not only a jerk but am humbled. All posts
read; where people made light of the journey of home selling is
appreciated for the laughs (the best medicine). Pardon for not calling
out everyone by name. Thanks again all.


Not to worry. We all had to learn about thing we are not familiar with.

On Fri, 1 Nov 2013 07:40:06 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Thank you gfre, ashton, tra, bob, dgk and the many others who responded. This is a real-life situation. I have since found the phrase "Missing strain relief at panel,. Have a licensed electrician make further evaluation and corrections as needed" being used in inspection reports from Florida to California. Even the punctuation typo is present. The software must be the same for punching out these reports.

My house was built in late 1994. The panel has a 1995 City inspection sticker on it. I doubt the young single woman who owned the house before me was capable of any modifications to anything. A licensed inspector evaluated etc. my house prior to my purchasing it in 2003. No such deficiency like the above was stated. I do not think the 2003 inspector took off the panel cover. I never went behind the panel cover.

I suppose standards in home inspection have changed.

Of course a person can work with an electrically hot wires present and not always be shocked or electrocuted. But this is about best practices and minimizing the chances of damage to life and property. I am navy nuclear trained and have zero patience for those who calculate their odds of an accident using lines like "I have never been electrocuted by doing xyz."




Pulling the panel cover on the average panel is safer than crossing
the street. Particularly if you know anything about the panel.
Reaching in without knowing what you are doing is foolish.

A good home inspector SHOULD pull the panel cover. He can tell a LOT
about the condition of the wiring from that one simple check. He
knows if extra wiring has been improperly added to the panel. He knows
if the house has copper or aluminum wiring, or a mix of the two. He
can tell if there is a problem with the line or neutral busses - signs
of overheating. - and a lot more..
If a home inspector hired by me does NOT pull the panel cover, he
didn't do the job I hired him for. And he better have a 3 lamp outlet
tester in his pocket, and use it, too.

If the house has aluminum wiring he better spot check a few outlets
and switches to see if it has the required co-alr devices installed,
or pigtails.

If he finds anything suspicious, he needs to mark on the report that
the electrical system should be checked by a qualified professional.

On Fri, 01 Nov 2013 16:11:57 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 1 Nov 2013 12:54:25 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Friday, November 1, 2013 3:15:02 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Forgot to add the extra piece of humble pie for me today: The panel did have a modification, adding wiring for the garage door opener and two garage outlets. It must have been done post the initial inspection of the house many years ago. The Romex connector was left off this modification. The three breakers were not labeled until I figured out what they powered just a little while ago.

FYI, GFCI protection has been required for garage outlets for
a long time, at least the 80's. So this should either be a GFCI
breaker or the first outlet in the daisychain in the garage should
be a GFCI outlet. That will protect it and anything downstream of
it. Not sure if the garage door openers need to be
on GFCI, they may be exempted.

Would be interesting to see if those are there and if the inspector
squaked it. Of course if it was an older home, before it was
required, then it's OK.

All 15 and 20a 120v receptacles in a garage need to be GFCI and he has
been that way for several cycles.
Not required to be retrofitted unless major renovations are done.

On 11/1/2013 7:13 PM, Oren wrote:
Yo, home. Choo all calling me a bro? I ain go
take it from yo, blood. You all be dissin dis
hee nig won mo tahm, no ahm sayin? I ain no
porch monkey, my ass be cracker to the co.

http://www.ckhid.com/wp-content/uplo...ic-video_1.jpg

Seff potrat.

Word up! I heard dat

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Business/images-3/redneck-toilet.jpg


Oh, bother. I kept telling my neighbor not to take
that picture. But, no.....

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Friday, November 1, 2013 2:33:08 PM UTC-7, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Sounds like a tech who knows what he's doing. I
sure hope you recommend him to every one you know.


I submitted my recommendation of him and the company he co-owns, and the essentials of why, to the "Services" section of my 1000+ home neighborhood's web site within an hour after he left.

On 11/2/2013 11:00 AM, wrote:
On Friday, November 1, 2013 2:33:08 PM UTC-7, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Sounds like a tech who knows what he's doing. I
sure hope you recommend him to every one you know.


I submitted my recommendation of him and the company
he co-owns, and the essentials of why, to the "Services"
section of my 1000+ home neighborhood's web site within
an hour after he left.

I hope he has plenty of business. And that plenty
of customers have good inspections.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

writes:
On Fri, 1 Nov 2013 12:54:25 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Friday, November 1, 2013 3:15:02 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Forgot to add the extra piece of humble pie for me today: The panel did have a modification, adding wiring for the garage door opener and two garage outlets. It must have been done post the initial inspection of the house many years ago. The Romex connector was left off this modification. The three breakers were not labeled until I figured out what they powered just a little while ago.

FYI, GFCI protection has been required for garage outlets for
a long time, at least the 80's. So this should either be a GFCI
breaker or the first outlet in the daisychain in the garage should
be a GFCI outlet. That will protect it and anything downstream of
it. Not sure if the garage door openers need to be
on GFCI, they may be exempted.

Would be interesting to see if those are there and if the inspector
squaked it. Of course if it was an older home, before it was
required, then it's OK.

All 15 and 20a 120v receptacles in a garage need to be GFCI and he has
been that way for several cycles.

True only if the receptacle will accept a standard NEMA 5-15P/5-20P plug,
if I remember the relevent code section correctly. This allows non GFCI
branch circuits in the garage for stationary power tools. Such a tool might
use a NEMA L5-20R (although for a good table saw, it's more likely to be a
NEMA L6-20R).

On Monday, November 4, 2013 10:34:37 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:

On Fri, 1 Nov 2013 12:54:25 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:



On Friday, November 1, 2013 3:15:02 PM UTC-4, wrote:

Forgot to add the extra piece of humble pie for me today: The panel did have a modification, adding wiring for the garage door opener and two garage outlets. It must have been done post the initial inspection of the house many years ago. The Romex connector was left off this modification. The three breakers were not labeled until I figured out what they powered just a little while ago.



FYI, GFCI protection has been required for garage outlets for

a long time, at least the 80's. So this should either be a GFCI

breaker or the first outlet in the daisychain in the garage should

be a GFCI outlet. That will protect it and anything downstream of

it. Not sure if the garage door openers need to be

on GFCI, they may be exempted.



Would be interesting to see if those are there and if the inspector

squaked it. Of course if it was an older home, before it was

required, then it's OK.



All 15 and 20a 120v receptacles in a garage need to be GFCI and he has

been that way for several cycles.



True only if the receptacle will accept a standard NEMA 5-15P/5-20P plug,

if I remember the relevent code section correctly. This allows non GFCI

branch circuits in the garage for stationary power tools. Such a tool might

use a NEMA L5-20R (although for a good table saw, it's more likely to be a

NEMA L6-20R).

I pull covers without turning the main off all the time. It's not that big a deal. And I'm surprised you were missing a clamp. It's pretty obvious that there has to be one when you look at all the other existing wires.

On Mon, 4 Nov 2013 09:36:39 -0800 (PST), jamesgang
wrote:

On Monday, November 4, 2013 10:34:37 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:

On Fri, 1 Nov 2013 12:54:25 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:



On Friday, November 1, 2013 3:15:02 PM UTC-4, wrote:

Forgot to add the extra piece of humble pie for me today: The panel did have a modification, adding wiring for the garage door opener and two garage outlets. It must have been done post the initial inspection of the house many years ago. The Romex connector was left off this modification. The three breakers were not labeled until I figured out what they powered just a little while ago.



FYI, GFCI protection has been required for garage outlets for

a long time, at least the 80's. So this should either be a GFCI

breaker or the first outlet in the daisychain in the garage should

be a GFCI outlet. That will protect it and anything downstream of

it. Not sure if the garage door openers need to be

on GFCI, they may be exempted.



Would be interesting to see if those are there and if the inspector

squaked it. Of course if it was an older home, before it was

required, then it's OK.



All 15 and 20a 120v receptacles in a garage need to be GFCI and he has

been that way for several cycles.



True only if the receptacle will accept a standard NEMA 5-15P/5-20P plug,

if I remember the relevent code section correctly. This allows non GFCI

branch circuits in the garage for stationary power tools. Such a tool might

use a NEMA L5-20R (although for a good table saw, it's more likely to be a

NEMA L6-20R).

I pull covers without turning the main off all the time. It's not that big a deal. And I'm surprised you were missing a clamp. It's pretty obvious that there has to be one when you look at all the other existing wires.
You'd be surprised at what you see in houses where a "handyman"
thinks he knows more than he does. When I was looking for a house 32
years ago and bought the one I now own, I saw one with a beautifully
finished basement - where the whole basement was wired with 2
conductor iron core outdoor telephone wire, and there were no clamps
on any of the boxes.
Another one where the basement had a suspended ceiling, and all of the
lights were wired with lamp cord, plugged into 2 outlet boxes hanging
from the joists.With Cube Taps. Didn't look to see what the outlets
were wired with. All kinds of strange und stupid stuff

On 11/4/2013 3:14 PM, wrote:
You'd be surprised at what you see in houses where a "handyman"
thinks he knows more than he does. When I was looking for a house 32
years ago and bought the one I now own, I saw one with a beautifully
finished basement - where the whole basement was wired with 2
conductor iron core outdoor telephone wire, and there were no clamps
on any of the boxes.
Another one where the basement had a suspended ceiling, and all of the
lights were wired with lamp cord, plugged into 2 outlet boxes hanging
from the joists.With Cube Taps. Didn't look to see what the outlets
were wired with. All kinds of strange and stupid stuff


I've seen similar. Years ago I was doing a lot of work in new housing
developments where homeowners were finishing the basements themselves.
These people had no clue and thought what they were doing was OK. Hey,
I'm only going to plug a lamp so it should be OK.

On Monday, November 4, 2013 8:34:37 AM UTC-7, Scott Lurndal wrote:
gfretwell wrote:
All 15 and 20a 120v receptacles in a garage need to be GFCI and he has
been that way for several cycles.

True only if the receptacle will accept a standard NEMA 5-15P/5-20P plug,
if I remember the relevent code section correctly. This allows non GFCI
branch circuits in the garage for stationary power tools. Such a tool might
use a NEMA L5-20R (although for a good table saw, it's more likely to be a
NEMA L6-20R).

I had another home inspection today. The buyer's realtor was there and questioned why neither of the two bathrooms had GFCI receptacles. The inspector looked a little confused (the realtor was making jokes throughout the inspection, while I waited outside) but added that GFCI was recommended in the bathrooms and withdrew from the discussion. The electric panel was inspected in 1995 when the house was built and has an inspection sticker for same.

What I found subsequently is that one breaker in my electrical panel is labeled "GFI - Garage." Opening this breaker shuts off power to one outlet in the garage and both bathrooms' outlets. None of these three outlets have GFCI test and reset buttons. The breaker looks the same as all the other breakers in the panel. The outlet in the garage looks like what's shown he http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-D...-WMP/100684055.

1.
Could a GFCI outlet have neither a test nor reset button?

2.
Could a GFCI breaker in a panel be not obvious?

3.
Is it worth the $15 it costs to buy a GFCI tester and test the bathroom outlets to see if there is GFCI protection of them somewhere?

4.
My best guess is that the previous homeowner had a GFCI outlet in the garage but replaced it. Should I put in a new GFCI outlet in the garage. Then will I have assurance of GFCI protection in all three outlets? 15 amp or 20 amp outlet?

On Friday, August 29, 2014 4:19:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, November 4, 2013 8:34:37 AM UTC-7, Scott Lurndal wrote:

gfretwell wrote:

All 15 and 20a 120v receptacles in a garage need to be GFCI and he has

been that way for several cycles.



True only if the receptacle will accept a standard NEMA 5-15P/5-20P plug,

if I remember the relevent code section correctly. This allows non GFCI

branch circuits in the garage for stationary power tools. Such a tool might

use a NEMA L5-20R (although for a good table saw, it's more likely to be a

NEMA L6-20R).



I had another home inspection today. The buyer's realtor was there and questioned why neither of the two bathrooms had GFCI receptacles. The inspector looked a little confused (the realtor was making jokes throughout the inspection, while I waited outside) but added that GFCI was recommended in the bathrooms and withdrew from the discussion. The electric panel was inspected in 1995 when the house was built and has an inspection sticker for same..



What I found subsequently is that one breaker in my electrical panel is labeled "GFI - Garage." Opening this breaker shuts off power to one outlet in the garage and both bathrooms' outlets. None of these three outlets have GFCI test and reset buttons. The breaker looks the same as all the other breakers in the panel. The outlet in the garage looks like what's shown he http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-D...-WMP/100684055.



1.

Could a GFCI outlet have neither a test nor reset button?


An outlet that has the GFCI built into it would have to have both
a test and reset button.




2.

Could a GFCI breaker in a panel be not obvious?


I've never seen one that isn't obvious. It has a test button for one
thing and would say that it's GFCI on it.






3.

Is it worth the $15 it costs to buy a GFCI tester and test the bathroom outlets to see if there is GFCI protection of them somewhere?



Maybe. They aren't a bad thing to have as they also test for reversed
hot/neutral, missing grounds, etc.




4.

My best guess is that the previous homeowner had a GFCI outlet in the garage but replaced it. Should I put in a new GFCI outlet in the garage. Then will I have assurance of GFCI protection in all three outlets? 15 amp or 20 amp outlet?

That would depend on how it's wired. If the bathrooms are downstream of the
garage, then yes. If they are upstream, then no. A GFCI outlet will protect
other outlets that are wired after it, but not before it in the chain. Whether
it should be 15 or 20 depends on the existing breaker and wire. 15A, 14g wire,
or 20A, 12g. It was common back in that period to have a bath protect a
garage or vice-versa.

You deduction about what might have happened about someone taking out the
GFCI sounds like it could be right, but they would have had to be pretty
dumb. Personally, if it were my house, I'd prefer the GFCI for the baths
to be in one of the baths. Not unusual for them to trip and you want it
easy to find. The garage one could be downstream of that. But if it's
wired the other way around, which you think it is, then the bath can't
protect the garage. So, for your solution, if it's wired the way you
think, just putting a GFCI back in the garage and using it to protect everything
should work. You'll have to pull the garage outlet(s) and determine where
the feed to the baths originates to wire it correctly.

The other and simpler option would be to replace the breaker with a GFCI
one. I'm assuming that the inspector isn't going to interpret the code to mean
that this is a "change" that requires everything on that circuit to now
be brought up to code.

On Friday, August 29, 2014 2:56:24 PM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, August 29, 2014 4:19:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
snip for brevity
My best guess is that the previous homeowner had a GFCI outlet in the garage but replaced it. Should I put in a new GFCI outlet in the garage. Then will I have assurance of GFCI protection in all three outlets? 15 amp or 20 amp outlet?

That would depend on how it's wired. If the bathrooms are downstream of the
garage, then yes. If they are upstream, then no. A GFCI outlet will protect
other outlets that are wired after it, but not before it in the chain. Whether
it should be 15 or 20 depends on the existing breaker and wire. 15A, 14g wire,
or 20A, 12g. It was common back in that period to have a bath protect a
garage or vice-versa.

You deduction about what might have happened about someone taking out the
GFCI sounds like it could be right, but they would have had to be pretty
dumb.

Do you mean they were dumb to give up GFCI protection on the bathrooms and garage outlet? Or they were dumb to do so for some other reason. At this point, I think the fact that my 2003-ish home inspector (when I bought the home) said nothing on this is a bit discouraging. It's the old but thoroughly lethal electric razor or hair dryer in the bathtub death trick (and similar, and really not funny) we're trying to avoid with bathroom GFCIs in particular, right? I know this because my dad earlier today reviewed just such a case with a teenage girl where I grew up decades ago.

Personally, if it were my house, I'd prefer the GFCI for the baths
to be in one of the baths. Not unusual for them to trip and you want it
easy to find. The garage one could be downstream of that. But if it's
wired the other way around, which you think it is, then the bath can't
protect the garage. So, for your solution, if it's wired the way you
think, just putting a GFCI back in the garage and using it to protect everything
should work. You'll have to pull the garage outlet(s) and determine where
the feed to the baths originates to wire it correctly.
The other and simpler option would be to replace the breaker with a GFCI
one. I'm assuming that the inspector isn't going to interpret the code to mean
that this is a "change" that requires everything on that circuit to now
be brought up to code.


Thank you for your rapid and informed response. Per your commentary, I opened the panel breaker in question, disconnected the corresponding garage receptacle (making sure no wires touched when done), and then shut the panel breaker. I had power at neither of the bathrooms' receptacles. This tells me the garage receptacle is upstream of the bathrooms' receptacles. Any objections to this approach?

The micrometer-ed the wire at the garage receptacle and found it to be 14 gage, so per your note (double checked with the net), I need a 15 amp GFCI receptacle, and I am good to go. I will probably just do it and then if the buyer wants an electrician inspection of same, I will call the guy I called before.

Much obliged, trader_4.

wrote in
:

I had another home inspection today. The buyer's realtor was
there and questioned why neither of the two bathrooms had GFCI
receptacles.

The electrical code does not require GFCI receptacles in bathrooms. It requires that
receptacles in bathrooms be protected by a GFCI, which can be located anywhere.

The inspector looked a little confused (the realtor
was making jokes throughout the inspection, while I waited
outside) but added that GFCI was recommended in the bathrooms
and withdrew from the discussion. The electric panel was
inspected in 1995 when the house was built and has an inspection
sticker for same.

Ground-fault protection for bathroom receptacles is not merely "recommended". It is
*required*. However, there is no requirement that the ground fault protective device be
located in the bathroom.

What I found subsequently is that one breaker in my electrical
panel is labeled "GFI - Garage." Opening this breaker shuts off
power to one outlet in the garage and both bathrooms' outlets.

That's fine, if either (a) the breaker is a GFCI breaker, or (b) the garage outlet is a GFCI
outlet *and* it's wired to provide downstream protection.

If neither (a) nor (b) is true, then you don't have GFCI protection despite what the label says.

None of these three outlets have GFCI test and reset buttons.

No, of course not. They are not GFCI receptacles.

The breaker looks the same as all the other breakers in the
panel.

Then it's not a GFCI breaker.

The outlet in the garage looks like what's shown he
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-D...mper-Resistant
-Duplex-Outlet-10-Pack-White-M22-T5325-WMP/100684055.

That's not a GFCI outlet.

1.
Could a GFCI outlet have neither a test nor reset button?

A GFCI breaker provides ground-fault protections to all
receptacles on that circuit. A GFCI receptacle can be -- but is
not necessarily -- wired to provide GFCI protection to all
receptacles "downstream" from itself.

Any receptacle protected in either of these manners will have full
ground fault protection, but of course the test and reset buttons
exist only at the GFCI protective device itself.

2.
Could a GFCI breaker in a panel be not obvious?

No. GFCI breakers are *very* obvious.

3.
Is it worth the $15 it costs to buy a GFCI tester and test the
bathroom outlets to see if there is GFCI protection of them
somewhere?

Yes, absolutely. From what you have written so far, it sounds very much like you do *not*
have GFCI protection. IMHO, you should do this right away.

4.
My best guess is that the previous homeowner had a GFCI outlet
in the garage but replaced it. Should I put in a new GFCI outlet
in the garage. Then will I have assurance of GFCI protection in
all three outlets?

I agree on all three counts.

15 amp or 20 amp outlet?

Depends on whether it's a 15A or 20A circuit.

wrote in
:


The micrometer-ed the wire at the garage receptacle and found it
to be 14 gage, so per your note (double checked with the net), I
need a 15 amp GFCI receptacle, and I am good to go. I will
probably just do it and then if the buyer wants an electrician
inspection of same, I will call the guy I called before.

I'd still get a tester. It's quite possible -- maybe even likely -- that you have an outdoor outlet
somewhere that has a GFCI receptacle which is protecting the garage and the bathrooms.

Get the tester. Plug it into one of the bathroom outlets. The lights on the tester should come on.
Hit the button. If the lights go off, you have GFCI protection somewhere. If they stay on, you
don't.

wrote:
On Friday, August 29, 2014 2:56:24 PM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, August 29, 2014 4:19:47 PM UTC-4,
wrote:
snip for brevity
My best guess is that the previous homeowner had a GFCI outlet in
the garage but replaced it. Should I put in a new GFCI outlet in
the garage. Then will I have assurance of GFCI protection in all
three outlets? 15 amp or 20 amp outlet?

That would depend on how it's wired. If the bathrooms are
downstream of the garage, then yes. If they are upstream, then no.
A GFCI outlet will protect other outlets that are wired after it,
but not before it in the chain. Whether it should be 15 or 20
depends on the existing breaker and wire. 15A, 14g wire, or 20A,
12g. It was common back in that period to have a bath protect a
garage or vice-versa.

You deduction about what might have happened about someone taking
out the
GFCI sounds like it could be right, but they would have had to be
pretty
dumb.

Do you mean they were dumb to give up GFCI protection on the
bathrooms and garage outlet? Or they were dumb to do so for some
other reason. At this point, I think the fact that my 2003-ish home
inspector (when I bought the home) said nothing on this is a bit
discouraging. It's the old but thoroughly lethal electric razor or
hair dryer in the bathtub death trick (and similar, and really not
funny) we're trying to avoid with bathroom GFCIs in particular,
right? I know this because my dad earlier today reviewed just such a
case with a teenage girl where I grew up decades ago.

Personally, if it were my house, I'd prefer the GFCI for the baths
to be in one of the baths. Not unusual for them to trip and you
want it
easy to find. The garage one could be downstream of that. But if
it's
wired the other way around, which you think it is, then the bath
can't
protect the garage. So, for your solution, if it's wired the way you
think, just putting a GFCI back in the garage and using it to
protect everything should work. You'll have to pull the garage
outlet(s) and determine where
the feed to the baths originates to wire it correctly.
The other and simpler option would be to replace the breaker with a
GFCI
one. I'm assuming that the inspector isn't going to interpret the
code to mean that this is a "change" that requires everything on
that circuit to now
be brought up to code.


Thank you for your rapid and informed response. Per your commentary,
I opened the panel breaker in question, disconnected the
corresponding garage receptacle (making sure no wires touched when
done), and then shut the panel breaker. I had power at neither of the
bathrooms' receptacles. This tells me the garage receptacle is
upstream of the bathrooms' receptacles. Any objections to this
approach?

The micrometer-ed the wire at the garage receptacle and found it to
be 14 gage, so per your note (double checked with the net), I need a
15 amp GFCI receptacle, and I am good to go. I will probably just do
it and then if the buyer wants an electrician inspection of same, I
will call the guy I called before.

Much obliged, trader_4.

Do you NOT get it that the gfci in the panel gives protection to ALL the
outlets that went dead when you turned it off ? There is NO NEED to add a
gfci outlet , the entire circuit is protected already . I have a single 20
amp gfci breaker in my panel that will when the house is finished protect
both bathrooms . When I build the kitchen there will be another 20A gfci in
the panel that will power 2 or 3 outlets , the ones within 4' of the sink .
Oh , and my in-panel gfci has a test button that trips it , resets just
like a regular breaker .
--
Snag

On Friday, August 29, 2014 5:58:25 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Friday, August 29, 2014 2:56:24 PM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, August 29, 2014 4:19:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:

snip for brevity

My best guess is that the previous homeowner had a GFCI outlet in the garage but replaced it. Should I put in a new GFCI outlet in the garage. Then will I have assurance of GFCI protection in all three outlets? 15 amp or 20 amp outlet?



That would depend on how it's wired. If the bathrooms are downstream of the

garage, then yes. If they are upstream, then no. A GFCI outlet will protect

other outlets that are wired after it, but not before it in the chain. Whether

it should be 15 or 20 depends on the existing breaker and wire. 15A, 14g wire,

or 20A, 12g. It was common back in that period to have a bath protect a

garage or vice-versa.



You deduction about what might have happened about someone taking out the

GFCI sounds like it could be right, but they would have had to be pretty

dumb.



Do you mean they were dumb to give up GFCI protection on the bathrooms and garage outlet?

Yes, if they did in fact replace the GFCI that was protecting everything
with a standard receptacle. It's also a code violation.


Or they were dumb to do so for some other reason. At this point, I think the fact that my 2003-ish home inspector (when I bought the home) said nothing on this is a bit discouraging. It's the old but thoroughly lethal electric razor or hair dryer in the bathtub death trick (and similar, and really not funny) we're trying to avoid with bathroom GFCIs in particular, right? I know this because my dad earlier today reviewed just such a case with a teenage girl where I grew up decades ago.



A lot of the home inspectors out there aren't that great. Speaking of
which, I guess you don't know if the home inspector who flagged this
used a tester on the outlets in question? Usually they all have at least
one of those and if he doubted the outlets were GFCI, the tester would
give the answer.




Personally, if it were my house, I'd prefer the GFCI for the baths

to be in one of the baths. Not unusual for them to trip and you want it

easy to find. The garage one could be downstream of that. But if it's

wired the other way around, which you think it is, then the bath can't

protect the garage. So, for your solution, if it's wired the way you

think, just putting a GFCI back in the garage and using it to protect everything

should work. You'll have to pull the garage outlet(s) and determine where

the feed to the baths originates to wire it correctly.

The other and simpler option would be to replace the breaker with a GFCI

one. I'm assuming that the inspector isn't going to interpret the code to mean

that this is a "change" that requires everything on that circuit to now

be brought up to code.





Thank you for your rapid and informed response. Per your commentary, I opened the panel breaker in question, disconnected the corresponding garage receptacle (making sure no wires touched when done), and then shut the panel breaker. I had power at neither of the bathrooms' receptacles. This tells me the garage receptacle is upstream of the bathrooms' receptacles. Any objections to this approach?



Sounds logical.




The micrometer-ed the wire at the garage receptacle and found it to be 14 gage, so per your note (double checked with the net), I need a 15 amp GFCI receptacle, and I am good to go. I will probably just do it and then if the buyer wants an electrician inspection of same, I will call the guy I called before.



Much obliged, trader_4.

No problemo. BTW, how did the rest of the inspection go? If this is the
worst of your worries, you're in good shape!

On Friday, August 29, 2014 8:13:39 PM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
wrote:

On Friday, August 29, 2014 2:56:24 PM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, August 29, 2014 4:19:47 PM UTC-4,

wrote:

snip for brevity

My best guess is that the previous homeowner had a GFCI outlet in

the garage but replaced it. Should I put in a new GFCI outlet in

the garage. Then will I have assurance of GFCI protection in all

three outlets? 15 amp or 20 amp outlet?



That would depend on how it's wired. If the bathrooms are

downstream of the garage, then yes. If they are upstream, then no.

A GFCI outlet will protect other outlets that are wired after it,

but not before it in the chain. Whether it should be 15 or 20

depends on the existing breaker and wire. 15A, 14g wire, or 20A,

12g. It was common back in that period to have a bath protect a

garage or vice-versa.



You deduction about what might have happened about someone taking

out the

GFCI sounds like it could be right, but they would have had to be

pretty

dumb.



Do you mean they were dumb to give up GFCI protection on the

bathrooms and garage outlet? Or they were dumb to do so for some

other reason. At this point, I think the fact that my 2003-ish home

inspector (when I bought the home) said nothing on this is a bit

discouraging. It's the old but thoroughly lethal electric razor or

hair dryer in the bathtub death trick (and similar, and really not

funny) we're trying to avoid with bathroom GFCIs in particular,

right? I know this because my dad earlier today reviewed just such a

case with a teenage girl where I grew up decades ago.



Personally, if it were my house, I'd prefer the GFCI for the baths

to be in one of the baths. Not unusual for them to trip and you

want it

easy to find. The garage one could be downstream of that. But if

it's

wired the other way around, which you think it is, then the bath

can't

protect the garage. So, for your solution, if it's wired the way you

think, just putting a GFCI back in the garage and using it to

protect everything should work. You'll have to pull the garage

outlet(s) and determine where

the feed to the baths originates to wire it correctly.

The other and simpler option would be to replace the breaker with a

GFCI

one. I'm assuming that the inspector isn't going to interpret the

code to mean that this is a "change" that requires everything on

that circuit to now

be brought up to code.





Thank you for your rapid and informed response. Per your commentary,

I opened the panel breaker in question, disconnected the

corresponding garage receptacle (making sure no wires touched when

done), and then shut the panel breaker. I had power at neither of the

bathrooms' receptacles. This tells me the garage receptacle is

upstream of the bathrooms' receptacles. Any objections to this

approach?



The micrometer-ed the wire at the garage receptacle and found it to

be 14 gage, so per your note (double checked with the net), I need a

15 amp GFCI receptacle, and I am good to go. I will probably just do

it and then if the buyer wants an electrician inspection of same, I

will call the guy I called before.



Much obliged, trader_4.



Do you NOT get it that the gfci in the panel gives protection to ALL the

outlets that went dead when you turned it off ? There is NO NEED to add a

gfci outlet , the entire circuit is protected already .

I was confused on this at first too. But I went back and read it again.
He isn't saying he has a GFCI breaker. He's saying it's just a regular
breaker with a label that says GFI-garage. That's why he was asking if
it was possible to have a GFCI breaker and for it to not be obviously
identifiable as such.

trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, August 29, 2014 8:13:39 PM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:

Do you NOT get it that the gfci in the panel gives protection to
ALL the

outlets that went dead when you turned it off ? There is NO NEED to
add a

gfci outlet , the entire circuit is protected already .

I was confused on this at first too. But I went back and read it
again. He isn't saying he has a GFCI breaker. He's saying it's just
a regular breaker with a label that says GFI-garage. That's why he
was asking if it was possible to have a GFCI breaker and for it to
not be obviously identifiable as such.

Ah , I thought he meant that the breaker was a gfci . If it's not , he
needs to determine for sure that the garage is first in the string and
install one there . Or install an in-panel gfci , then it won't matter which
one is first .

--
Snag

On Friday, August 29, 2014 7:10:36 PM UTC-6, Terry Coombs wrote:
Do you NOT get it that the gfci in the panel gives protection to
ALL the
outlets that went dead when you turned it off ? There is NO NEED to
add a
gfci outlet , the entire circuit is protected already .
I was confused on this at first too. But I went back and read it
again. He isn't saying he has a GFCI breaker. He's saying it's just
a regular breaker with a label that says GFI-garage. That's why he
was asking if it was possible to have a GFCI breaker and for it to
not be obviously identifiable as such.



Ah , I thought he meant that the breaker was a gfci .

Hi Terry, Trader_4 has it straight. To review: The breaker at issue here and in the panel has nothing that distinguishes it from the dozen or so other breakers in the panel, so I conclude this breaker is not GFCI. The taped label on the side of the breaker refers to the one outlet in the garage that should be GFCI (and soon will be). Thank you for checking in. All this discussion has clarified much in short order. At my gym tonight, I also bumped into an electrician in my neighborhood who happens to have wired many of the houses here some 20 years ago. He confirmed that there is supposed to be a GFCI outlet in the garage that also protects the bathrooms and the outdoor outlets, like all here have been saying.

Doug, none of the outdoor outlets are GFCI outlets. They also all tie into the aforementioned breaker. So the outdoor outlets also lacked GFCI protection all these years. Thanks for the input on buying a GFCI tester. I am considering buying one for $15 at Sears.

trader_4: The inspector did not use a GFCI tester. It was the realtor who questioned the setup. All the inspector said is that the GFCI was recommended for bathrooms, the garage, and the exterior. I agree today's finding is significant and give the realtor a lot of credit for asking the original question. I know it's not totally unsafe, but of course I agree it's unacceptable to turn the house over without GFCI protected bathrooms. I am also replacing the two other outlets (not fed by the aforementioned panel breaker but by two other breakers) in the garage currently lacking GFCI with GFCI ones.

I should have known better last year, when the first evidence that some wiring in the garage had been added, based on the inspection last year.


If it's not , he
needs to determine for sure that the garage is first in the string and
install one there . Or install an in-panel gfci , then it won't matter which
one is first .

Terry, correct, the one in the garage is first in the string of outlets that includes the two bathrooms and also, per discussion here, with my electrician neighbor and my further checking, the three outlets mounted on the outside of the house (with the special weather resistant covers).

Trader_4, the inspector, buyer and buyer's realtor seemed pleased with all, but I count on nothing until I have it in writing. Besides, the buyer's realtor was breathing down the inspector's neck and my neck, so the inspector might have quickly reached the point that he just wanted out of there and would say anything to get back to his report picture taking and short comments. I felt bad for the inspector and the buyer. I know I would need to stay focused if I had the inspector's job. Else in writing I have that the lender has approved the buyer's "credit" and is waiting only on the inspection results.

wrote in
:

trader_4: The inspector did not use a GFCI tester. It was the
realtor who questioned the setup. All the inspector said is that
the GFCI was recommended for bathrooms, the garage, and the
exterior. I agree today's finding is significant and give the
realtor a lot of credit for asking the original question. I know
it's not totally unsafe, but of course I agree it's unacceptable
to turn the house over without GFCI protected bathrooms. I am
also replacing the two other outlets (not fed by the
aforementioned panel breaker but by two other breakers) in the
garage currently lacking GFCI with GFCI ones.

This is unnecessary expense and effort. *One* GFCI receptacle in the garage is sufficient to
provide GFCI protection for the entire circuit. You do *not* need to have GFCI receptacles in
the bathrooms if there is one in the garage, wired to provide downstream protection. The
installation instructions that accompany the GFCI receptacle will show clearly how to do that.

On Fri, 29 Aug 2014 13:19:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote:


I had another home inspection today. The buyer's realtor was there and ques=
tioned why neither of the two bathrooms had GFCI receptacles. The inspector=
looked a little confused (the realtor was making jokes throughout the insp=
ection, while I waited outside) but added that GFCI was recommended in the =
bathrooms and withdrew from the discussion. The electric panel was inspecte=
d in 1995 when the house was built and has an inspection sticker for same.=
=20

What I found subsequently is that one breaker in my electrical panel is lab=
eled "GFI - Garage."

Is this a nicely printed label? IF so maybe it was there before the
breaker was replaced, and he reused it. For some reason, when my house
was less than 8 years old, the GFI breaker started tripping every couple
months for no reason. After I was convinced it was for no reason, I
replaced it and it hasn't tripped more than twice in 27 years. I think
each time I knew the reason.

Opening this breaker shuts off power to one outlet in =
the garage and both bathrooms' outlets. None of these three outlets have GF=
CI test and reset buttons.

That's the setup I have in my house built in 1979. I'm not positive
they had GFI receptacles then, maybe only breakers????

My breaker controls the recept. in 2 bathrooms and a powder room, on the
counter near the kitchen sink, and outside on the "patio". I suppose
it controls the outlet next to the laundry sink, into which is plugged
the clothes washer, but I've probably always reset the breaker long
before I wanted to wwash clothes.

The breaker looks the same as all the other brea=
kers in the panel.

But my breaker certainly doesn't look the same. A) it has a test
button. It doesn't protrude and it's not very noticeable (same width
and color as the breaker face) but if you push it you can see the handle
of the breaker move to OFF. Then to reset, you have to move the handle
back even farther (to reset, or something like that. But perhaps the
words have come off for some reason) and then back to ON,


The outlet in the garage looks like what's shown he =
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-D...-WMP/100684055.

1.
Could a GFCI outlet have neither a test nor reset button?

No, but a regular outlet or a string of them can receive current from a
GFI breaker, and that is just as safe.

2.
Could a GFCI breaker in a panel be not obvious?

No, I don't think so. Go to the hardeware store or Home Depot and look
at what they sell. OTOH, it depends on how observant you are. They
must be different but you might not notice.

3.
Is it worth the $15 it costs to buy a GFCI tester and test the bathroom out=
lets to see if there is GFCI protection of them somewhere?

4.
My best guess is that the previous homeowner had a GFCI outlet in the garag=
e but replaced it.

My best guess is that he had a GFI breaker in the fuse box but replaced
it with something that isn't GFI.

Should I put in a new GFCI outlet in the garage. Then wi=
ll I have assurance of GFCI protection in all three outlets?

It depends on which is the most upstream breaker.

15 amp or 20 a=
mp outlet?

Please r ead my reply to your second post, which also takes into
consideration your third post.

On Fri, 29 Aug 2014 14:58:25 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, August 29, 2014 2:56:24 PM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, August 29, 2014 4:19:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
snip for brevity
My best guess is that the previous homeowner had a GFCI outlet in the garage but replaced it. Should I put in a new GFCI outlet in the garage. Then will I have assurance of GFCI protection in all three outlets? 15 amp or 20 amp outlet?

That would depend on how it's wired. If the bathrooms are downstream of the
garage, then yes. If they are upstream, then no. A GFCI outlet will protect
other outlets that are wired after it, but not before it in the chain. Whether
it should be 15 or 20 depends on the existing breaker and wire. 15A, 14g wire,
or 20A, 12g. It was common back in that period to have a bath protect a
garage or vice-versa.

You deduction about what might have happened about someone taking out the
GFCI sounds like it could be right, but they would have had to be pretty
dumb.

Do you mean they were dumb to give up GFCI protection on the bathrooms and garage outlet? Or they were dumb to do so for some other reason. At this point, I think the fact that my 2003-ish home inspector (when I bought the home) said nothing on this is a bit discouraging. It's the old but thoroughly lethal electric razor or hair dryer in the bathtub death trick

AIUI, the outlet has to be far enough away from the tub that the cord
that comes with hair dryers and razors won't reach the tub.

(and similar, and really not funny) we're trying to avoid with bathroom GFCIs in particular, right?

Huh?

I know this because my dad earlier today reviewed just such a case with a teenage girl where I grew up decades ago.

What about her? She died?

Personally, if it were my house, I'd prefer the GFCI for the baths
to be in one of the baths. Not unusual for them to trip and you want it
easy to find. The garage one could be downstream of that. But if it's
wired the other way around, which you think it is, then the bath can't
protect the garage. So, for your solution, if it's wired the way you
think, just putting a GFCI back in the garage and using it to protect everything
should work. You'll have to pull the garage outlet(s) and determine where
the feed to the baths originates to wire it correctly.
The other and simpler option would be to replace the breaker with a GFCI
one. I'm assuming that the inspector isn't going to interpret the code to mean
that this is a "change" that requires everything on that circuit to now
be brought up to code.


Thank you for your rapid and informed response. Per your commentary, I opened the panel breaker in question, disconnected the corresponding garage receptacle

You disconnected the garage at the breaker? Is there more than one
wire connected to the same breaker? How did you know which was for the
gararge?

(making sure no wires touched when done), and then shut the panel breaker.

You mean turned off that particular breaker?

I had power at neither of the bathrooms' receptacles.

And what about the garage?

This tells me the garage receptacle is upstream of the bathrooms' receptacles. Any objections to this approach?

Yes, I object, and I don't know why everyone else did. I don't see how
that test told you anything. If all three go to the same breaker and
all three are disconnected when you did this test, either by
disconnecting the wire or by turning off the breaker, how do you learn
anything from that? I certainly don't see how you conclude which
outlet is upstream and which downstream.

The micrometer-ed the wire at the garage receptacle and found it to be 14 gage, so per your note (double checked with the net), I need a 15 amp GFCI receptacle, and I am good to go.

I don't think so. Do you have GFI protection in the bathrooms? At
the kitchen sink? At the outdoor recept?

I will probably just do it and then if the buyer wants an electrician inspection of same, I will call the guy I called before.

Much obliged, trader_4.

micky wrote:
A lot of drivel .

How about you crawl back under your rock and let the humans handle this ?
--
Snag

On Fri, 29 Aug 2014 19:23:06 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, August 29, 2014 7:10:36 PM UTC-6, Terry Coombs wrote:
Do you NOT get it that the gfci in the panel gives protection to
ALL the
outlets that went dead when you turned it off ? There is NO NEED to
add a
gfci outlet , the entire circuit is protected already .
I was confused on this at first too. But I went back and read it
again. He isn't saying he has a GFCI breaker. He's saying it's just
a regular breaker with a label that says GFI-garage. That's why he
was asking if it was possible to have a GFCI breaker and for it to
not be obviously identifiable as such.



Ah , I thought he meant that the breaker was a gfci .

Hi Terry, Trader_4 has it straight. To review: The breaker at issue here and in the panel has nothing that distinguishes it from the dozen or so other breakers in the panel, so I conclude this breaker is not GFCI. The taped label on the side of the breaker refers to the one outlet in the garage that should be GFCI (and soon will be).

I don't believe the label means that the breaker at some other location
is GFCI. I don't believe it ever meant that.

Thank you for checking in. All this discussion has clarified much in short order. At my gym tonight, I also bumped into an electrician in my neighborhood who happens to have wired many of the houses here some 20 years ago. He confirmed that there is supposed to be a GFCI outlet in the garage that also protects the bathrooms and the outdoor outlets, like all here have been saying.

Well that's good, unless he is confusing your house with other houses in
the last 20 years.

The electrician who did my house also lived in my n'hood for at least a
decade. (You coudl tell his house by the lights along the sidewalk, and
by the range hood vent that came out above the sliding glass door in the
front of the kitchen. Everyone else just had a fan that drew the air
through the filter and then straight back into the kitchen. But he
also made two mistakes in my house. In the entry hall, there are 2
3-way switches that he or his employee wired wrong so one switch didn't
work unless the other switch was in the right position. And at the
top of the basement stairs, he put the basement switch to the left and
the upstairs switch to the right, which with the stairs where they were
was backwards.

I don't know why I thought he would think this funny (like I did) if I
told him, but like an idiot I told him and he was annoyed.

Doug, none of the outdoor outlets are GFCI outlets. They also all tie into the aforementioned breaker

What breaker? The one you turned off in the previous post? If so,
that's another reason I think it should be GFI.

. So the outdoor outlets also lacked GFCI protection all these years.

People had electricity for 100 years before they invented GFI's and only
a (comparitively?)few people got killed because of that. (I wonder what
the number really is) Because usually nothing goes wrong, and in many
cases it takes two things to go wrong at once. But as we get more
prosperous, we have less tolerance for such deaths. Seat belts, air
bags, separate front and rear brakes, ABS.


Thanks for the input on buying a GFCI tester. I am considering buying one for $15 at Sears.

trader_4: The inspector did not use a GFCI tester. It was the realtor who questioned the setup. All the inspector said is that the GFCI was recommended for bathrooms, the garage, and the exterior. I agree today's finding is significant and give the realtor a lot of credit for asking the original question. I know it's not totally unsafe, but of course I agree it's unacceptable to turn the house over without GFCI protected bathrooms. I am also replacing the two other outlets (not fed by the aforementioned panel breaker but by two other breakers) in the garage currently lacking GFCI with GFCI ones.

It won't kill you, not even financially, to replace more outlets than
need be, but the way to tell which is the upstream recep is either to
believe the electrician, or to partially believe him and turn off the
breaker, take the one he says is the most upstream (the garage) take
that out and disconnect the outgoing hot wire from it, then turn the
breaker on again. If the garage outlet is dead, you disconnected the
wrong wire, the incoming hot wire. But if it's not dead, go to all
the other outlets and see if they are dead. If they are dead, the
garage outlet is indeed the most upstream one and a gfi outlet there
will protect every outlet that went dead when you disconnected that one
wire.

You can plug lamps or radios into the outlets to make testing go
quickly.

If otoh, some or all them are not dead after you disconnect that wire, I
guess you have to do the same test at other recepts until you find the
right one. What a pain.

I should have known better last year, when the first evidence that some wiring in the garage had been added, based on the inspection last year.


If it's not , he
needs to determine for sure that the garage is first in the string and
install one there . Or install an in-panel gfci , then it won't matter which
one is first .

Terry, correct, the one in the garage is first in the string of outlets that includes the two bathrooms and also, per discussion here, with my electrician neighbor and my further checking, the three outlets mounted on the outside of the house (with the special weather resistant covers).

Trader_4, the inspector, buyer and buyer's realtor seemed pleased with all, but I count on nothing until I have it in writing. Besides, the buyer's realtor was breathing down the inspector's neck and my neck, so the inspector might have quickly reached the point that he just wanted out of there and would say anything to get back to his report picture taking and short comments. I felt bad for the inspector and the buyer. I know I would need to stay focused if I had the inspector's job. Else in writing I have that the lender has approved the buyer's "credit" and is waiting only on the inspection results.

On Friday, August 29, 2014 10:23:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Friday, August 29, 2014 7:10:36 PM UTC-6, Terry Coombs wrote:

Do you NOT get it that the gfci in the panel gives protection to

ALL the

outlets that went dead when you turned it off ? There is NO NEED to

add a

gfci outlet , the entire circuit is protected already .

I was confused on this at first too. But I went back and read it

again. He isn't saying he has a GFCI breaker. He's saying it's just

a regular breaker with a label that says GFI-garage. That's why he

was asking if it was possible to have a GFCI breaker and for it to

not be obviously identifiable as such.







Ah , I thought he meant that the breaker was a gfci .



Hi Terry, Trader_4 has it straight. To review: The breaker at issue here and in the panel has nothing that distinguishes it from the dozen or so other breakers in the panel, so I conclude this breaker is not GFCI. The taped label on the side of the breaker refers to the one outlet in the garage that should be GFCI (and soon will be). Thank you for checking in. All this discussion has clarified much in short order. At my gym tonight, I also bumped into an electrician in my neighborhood who happens to have wired many of the houses here some 20 years ago. He confirmed that there is supposed to be a GFCI outlet in the garage that also protects the bathrooms and the outdoor outlets, like all here have been saying.



Doug, none of the outdoor outlets are GFCI outlets. They also all tie into the aforementioned breaker. So the outdoor outlets also lacked GFCI protection all these years. Thanks for the input on buying a GFCI tester. I am considering buying one for $15 at Sears.



trader_4: The inspector did not use a GFCI tester. It was the realtor who questioned the setup.

Well, I guess that tells you something about the qualifications of the
inspector. Any decent inspector, concerned about whether bathroom receptacles
have GFCI, would just use his tester. I guess a $15 tester is too much for
him.

All the inspector said is that the GFCI was recommended for bathrooms, the garage, and the exterior.

As Doug pointed out, it was also code when the house was built, which was
the 90s correct?


I agree today's finding is significant and give the realtor a lot of credit for asking the original question. I know it's not totally unsafe, but of course I agree it's unacceptable to turn the house over without GFCI protected bathrooms. I am also replacing the two other outlets (not fed by the aforementioned panel breaker but by two other breakers) in the garage currently lacking GFCI with GFCI ones.


It's kind of unusual for a typical garage to have 3 outlets all fed by
3 separate breakers, but you're right, adding those GFCIs is what's
required.




I should have known better last year, when the first evidence that some wiring in the garage had been added, based on the inspection last year.



Yes, I looked back in the thread and saw that. Looks like it was
amature hour.






If it's not , he

needs to determine for sure that the garage is first in the string and

install one there . Or install an in-panel gfci , then it won't matter which

one is first .



Terry, correct, the one in the garage is first in the string of outlets that includes the two bathrooms and also, per discussion here, with my electrician neighbor and my further checking, the three outlets mounted on the outside of the house (with the special weather resistant covers).



Trader_4, the inspector, buyer and buyer's realtor seemed pleased with all, but I count on nothing until I have it in writing.

That's good to hear. So the deal is going well.


Besides, the buyer's realtor was breathing down the inspector's neck and my neck, so the inspector might have quickly reached the point that he just wanted out of there and would say anything to get back to his report picture taking and short comments.

So the buyer's incompetent realtor actually helped you by screwing with
the inspector.


I felt bad for the inspector and the buyer. I know I would need to stay focused if I had the inspector's job. Else in writing I have that the lender has approved the buyer's "credit" and is waiting only on the inspection results.

I wouldn't feel too bad for an inspector who can't test a bath GFCI.
Sounds like he and the seller's incompetent realtor deserve each other.

On Friday, August 29, 2014 10:53:10 PM UTC-4, Doug Miller wrote:
wrote in

:



trader_4: The inspector did not use a GFCI tester. It was the

realtor who questioned the setup. All the inspector said is that

the GFCI was recommended for bathrooms, the garage, and the

exterior. I agree today's finding is significant and give the

realtor a lot of credit for asking the original question. I know

it's not totally unsafe, but of course I agree it's unacceptable

to turn the house over without GFCI protected bathrooms. I am

also replacing the two other outlets (not fed by the

aforementioned panel breaker but by two other breakers) in the

garage currently lacking GFCI with GFCI ones.



This is unnecessary expense and effort. *One* GFCI receptacle in the garage is sufficient to

provide GFCI protection for the entire circuit. You do *not* need to have GFCI receptacles in

the bathrooms if there is one in the garage, wired to provide downstream protection. The

installation instructions that accompany the GFCI receptacle will show clearly how to do that.

He actually said that the two other receptacles in the garage are on
two separate breakers, so he does need two GFCI for those, plus one for
the garage outlet that also feeds the bath and outdoors. Three total.

On Friday, August 29, 2014 11:37:33 PM UTC-4, micky wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2014 13:19:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote:





I had another home inspection today. The buyer's realtor was there and ques=

tioned why neither of the two bathrooms had GFCI receptacles. The inspector=

looked a little confused (the realtor was making jokes throughout the insp=

ection, while I waited outside) but added that GFCI was recommended in the =

bathrooms and withdrew from the discussion. The electric panel was inspecte=

d in 1995 when the house was built and has an inspection sticker for same.=

=20



What I found subsequently is that one breaker in my electrical panel is lab=

eled "GFI - Garage."



Is this a nicely printed label? IF so maybe it was there before the

breaker was replaced, and he reused it.

It's there so folks will see it and know that there is a GFCI in the
garage. The scenario is Joe finds that some receptacle, lights,
whatever aren't working. First thing Joe does is think it's the
breaker. Upon looking, he sees the label, so now he knows if it
involves that circuit, the other possible problem is the GFCI in the
garage.


For some reason, when my house

was less than 8 years old, the GFI breaker started tripping every couple

months for no reason. After I was convinced it was for no reason, I

replaced it and it hasn't tripped more than twice in 27 years. I think

each time I knew the reason.



Opening this breaker shuts off power to one outlet in =

the garage and both bathrooms' outlets. None of these three outlets have GF=

CI test and reset buttons.



That's the setup I have in my house built in 1979. I'm not positive

they had GFI receptacles then, maybe only breakers????



My breaker controls the recept. in 2 bathrooms and a powder room, on the

counter near the kitchen sink, and outside on the "patio". I suppose

it controls the outlet next to the laundry sink, into which is plugged

the clothes washer, but I've probably always reset the breaker long

before I wanted to wwash clothes.



That's a lot of loads for one circuit. Code today requires
the laundry room have it's own circuit. Not sure the history there,
but I don't think it's been code to have all that on one circuit for
a very long time.




The breaker looks the same as all the other brea=

kers in the panel.



But my breaker certainly doesn't look the same. A) it has a test

button. It doesn't protrude and it's not very noticeable (same width

and color as the breaker face) but if you push it you can see the handle

of the breaker move to OFF. Then to reset, you have to move the handle

back even farther (to reset, or something like that.

That's because you have a GFCI breaker, Honda doesn't.

On Saturday, August 30, 2014 5:40:47 AM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, August 29, 2014 10:23:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
trader_4: The inspector did not use a GFCI tester. It was the realtor who questioned the setup.

Well, I guess that tells you something about the qualifications of the
inspector. Any decent inspector, concerned about whether bathroom receptacles
have GFCI, would just use his tester. I guess a $15 tester is too much for
him.

Yes, though I wonder whether it is either company, state, or current licensure policy to discourage/disallow home inspectors from getting into too much detail regarding the wiring. They're not electricians, after all. OTOH, it does seem like baloney, because in what seems my relatively simple case where a DIY-er added outlets to the garage and took out a GFCI outlet critical to several 'likely subject to moisture' circuits, the typical lay-buyer would need a licensed electrician to really study everything and get some assurance all was well GFCI-wise and in all ways. It seems to me a home inspection should really be looking for big ticket safety issues. Electrical problems have to be a leading cause of deaths, fires etc. in a house, maybe second to falling off ladders when it comes to injuries.

At this point if and when I buy another house or condominium, and not needing to take a loan for same, I think I will forego a house inspection. It seems a farce for anyone with years of experience owning a home and having some electrical background. Or knowing to make inquiries on the net and of friends. :-) If there are problems, then buyer and seller can call in a licensed specialist to resolve the situation.

All the inspector said is that the GFCI was recommended for bathrooms, the garage, and the exterior.

As Doug pointed out, it was also code when the house was built, which was
the 90s correct?

Yes, the house was built in the mid-1990s. After the buyer's realtor questioned the lack of GFCI outlets in the bathroom point, the Inspector pointed out what Doug and others pointed out. What the inspector was ignorant of was the bathrooms being GFCI protected via a GFCI garage outlet upstream of the bathrooms' outlets.

I agree today's finding is significant and give the realtor a lot of credit for asking the original question. I know it's not totally unsafe, but of course I agree it's unacceptable to turn the house over without GFCI protected bathrooms. I am also replacing the two other outlets (not fed by the aforementioned panel breaker but by two other breakers) in the garage currently lacking GFCI with GFCI ones.





It's kind of unusual for a typical garage to have 3 outlets all fed by
3 separate breakers, but you're right, adding those GFCIs is what's
required.

Thanks for the reinforcement.

Micky, trader_4 has things straight here, I think with all others.

I should have known better last year, when the first evidence that some wiring in the garage had been added, based on the inspection last year.


Yes, I looked back in the thread and saw that. Looks like it was
amature hour.

Yes, including my not catching this until yesterday upon the realtor's questioning and the inspector saying the baths should be GFCI protected (or similar wording). The only thing last year's report stated on this entire matter was that "GFCI outlets are recommended for installation at exterior, garage, bath rooms outlets [sic]." Anyone saying what was found yesterday was a code violation and it should have been noted as an unacceptable deficiency: I agree. What this second inspection report says will be interesting. It is due in a few days.

Trader_4, the inspector, buyer and buyer's realtor seemed pleased with all, but I count on nothing until I have it in writing.

That's good to hear. So the deal is going well.

On paper, per what the buyer and I have signed to resuscitate the deal, and the inspections and loan approval that have gone forward, I would say it is going well. There is tenseness between the realtors and me. My realtor and I are already in the habit of double-checking and text-alerting that we each received any documents sent. Yesterday the buyer's realtor started trying this baloney double talk yesterday, and he and I had some words. He looked surprised that I would call him out for not scheduling the inspection period, resulting in a significant delay and putting the deal in peril. The buyer's realtor started talking about how he wanted a happy buyer and seller and how many deals he had done. I gave him a look and off-the-cuff said, "You want your sales commission as quickly as possible." The buyer laughed. I think the buyer's pretty savvy and just wants the house (assuming no major inspection problems). The inspector walked away, perhaps sensing the sparks. I have had it with this realtor double talk. I think realtors today are formally trained in used car sales-speak. I am not taking being pushed around by either realtor at this point. If the deal falls through, so be it. But I think all of us have enough invested that it will go through, assuming the loan is approved.

Besides, the buyer's realtor was breathing down the inspector's neck and my neck, so the inspector might have quickly reached the point that he just wanted out of there and would say anything to get back to his report picture taking and short comments.

So the buyer's incompetent realtor actually helped you by screwing with
the inspector.

I think the inspector was a bit aggravated and more likely to take it out on me. My own realtor had to cancel his presence at the last minute, whence I agreed to be there, let the inspector in, and then absent myself. Then the buyer and the buyer's realtor show up, un-announced. All were 15 minutes late. No big deal but it miffed me a bit. My realtor said the buyer had made no request to be present but of course none of us had a problem with their wanting to be there. My realtor told me the inspection was mostly a "re-inspection" for home warranty purposes and so should only take a half an hour or so. I was hanging out in the backyard, weeding, for the first hour. When I heard all the laughter and the buyer's realtor's voice leading the chatter, and not happy with the delay and joking on my time and when I needed a focused inspector, I said 'enough,' and started shadowing the group. With hindsight I am thinking I should have pulled the buyer's realtor aside and told him that I felt the inspector needed to stay focused, and please only ask technical questions without interrupting the inspector otherwise.

Still, and again, I credit the buyer's realtor for calling out the GFCI situation. Like much, it's not black-and-white. Maybe he earned his commission with just this one, significant observation. I was so disgusted about how all was proceeding that I responded to the buyer's realtor, re the GFCI query, with a sarcastic "oh well." Obviously I had not dug into the GFCI situation at this point.

I felt bad for the inspector and the buyer. I know I would need to stay focused if I had the inspector's job. Else in writing I have that the lender has approved the buyer's "credit" and is waiting only on the inspection results.



I wouldn't feel too bad for an inspector who can't test a bath GFCI.
Sounds like he and the seller's incompetent realtor deserve each other.

They did make a good match, overall.

Yesterday I asked me realtor to forward a note to the buyer (via the buyer's realtor) that I would be remedying the bathroom/exterior/garage GFCI situation. I do not care what the report says or whether the buyer was going to object or not. I am not turning over the house with what I personally know now is a code violation. It's costing me under $40 for parts and a few hours of labor. If the buyer says he wants a licensed electrician to check all, I do not blame him. The buyer does not know electricity from plumbing nor me from Adam.

On Friday, August 29, 2014 11:11:11 PM UTC-6, wrote:
The receptacle just has to be outside of the "tub space".

Thanks . The receptacles are located out of the tub space in both baths, about as far as they could possibly be from the tub.

I think someone asked about the outcome of the teenage girl I mentioned yesterday. I believe this happened in the late 1960s or early 1970s, when I was net yet a teenager myself. The girl was from a well-to-do family and was in the bathtub, simultaneously soaking and drying her hair with an electric dryer. Maybe one of the old fashioned hair net versions? The dryer fell in the bath water. She was electrocuted and died instantly. This was several miles from where I lived, different school district and all, but the papers reported on it amply. All the parents were talking about it. Of course they were saddened for the girls' family and went to some trouble to make sure it did not happen to their own kids.