When I was a kid, my grandparents had those old push button light
switches all around their house. I used to drive my grandparents crazy
pushing them on and off, because my parents house did not have them, and
I thought they were really cool.

Recently I bought a box of assorted electrical parts from an auction and
it had several of those antique push button switches including the brass
plates. I'd like to install a few of them in my house just for the heck
of it. Nostalgia I guess!

They do still work, in fact they seem to be built to last forever out of
heavy porcelain, with a thick brass contact, and viewable spring.

Are they legal to use (by the electrical code) in a newer home that did
not originally have them? I'm not likely to get inspected, but I wanted
to ask.

On 10/22/2013 10:31 PM, wrote:
When I was a kid, my grandparents had those old push button light
switches all around their house. I used to drive my grandparents
crazy pushing them on and off, because my parents house did not have
them, and I thought they were really cool.

Recently I bought a box of assorted electrical parts from an auction
and it had several of those antique push button switches including
the brass plates. I'd like to install a few of them in my house just
for the heck of it. Nostalgia I guess!

They do still work, in fact they seem to be built to last forever out
of heavy porcelain, with a thick brass contact, and viewable spring.

Are they legal to use (by the electrical code) in a newer home that
did not originally have them? I'm not likely to get inspected, but I
wanted to ask.


There shouldn't be a problem with them as long as the contacts are clean
and no fingers could get to the open part of the switch. The switches
probably went out of fashion because I believe the flip switches are
less expensive to manufacture. Of course with a modern sealed switch,
insects can't get into it which would turn into a fire hazard after the
critters die, dry out and burn when an open switch arcs. ^_^

TDD

On 10/22/2013 11:31 PM, wrote:
When I was a kid, my grandparents had those old push button light
switches all around their house. I used to drive my grandparents crazy
pushing them on and off, because my parents house did not have them, and
I thought they were really cool.

http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Accent.../dp/B0002EVT5Y

On Wed, 23 Oct 2013 04:24:57 -0400, morty wrote:

On 10/22/2013 11:31 PM, wrote:
When I was a kid, my grandparents had those old push button light
switches all around their house. I used to drive my grandparents crazy
pushing them on and off, because my parents house did not have them, and
I thought they were really cool.

http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Accent.../dp/B0002EVT5Y


I think this line answers the question:
Replace your old push button light switches with these to bring your
electrical up to code.

On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:31:20 PM UTC-4, wrote:
When I was a kid, my grandparents had those old push button light

switches all around their house. I used to drive my grandparents crazy

pushing them on and off, because my parents house did not have them, and

I thought they were really cool.

We had them in a house when I was about 8.

The landlord had a severe intention tremor. Parkinson's maybe? I was too young to be told.

It was quite disturbing to a young child to watch him try, and try, and try to turn a light on or off. He'd miss in all possible directions.

On 10/23/2013 05:46 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2013 04:24:57 -0400, morty wrote:

On 10/22/2013 11:31 PM, wrote:
When I was a kid, my grandparents had those old push button light
switches all around their house. I used to drive my grandparents crazy
pushing them on and off, because my parents house did not have them, and
I thought they were really cool.

http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Accent.../dp/B0002EVT5Y


I think this line answers the question:
Replace your old push button light switches with these to bring your
electrical up to code.


I would probably feel more comfortable were the yoke of the switch
grounded since you'll obviously be using antique metal covers. Granted
we all managed to survive without that for ages, but still.

I remember those switches in my grandparents' house as well. And
exposed K&T wiring in the attic and basement...

nate

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On Wednesday, October 23, 2013 4:24:57 AM UTC-4, morty wrote:
On 10/22/2013 11:31 PM, wrote:

When I was a kid, my grandparents had those old push button light

switches all around their house. I used to drive my grandparents crazy

pushing them on and off, because my parents house did not have them, and

I thought they were really cool.



http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Accent.../dp/B0002EVT5Y

That sounds like the right alterative. The originals have
no ground connection, right? And who knows how they are
constructed, meaning I don't think there is a guarantee
all the metal parts are connected together, so even if
you did try to ground it yourself, who knows. And
they aren't listed for use. IMO, no way it would pass
an electrical inspection.

On 10/23/2013 09:00 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, October 23, 2013 4:24:57 AM UTC-4, morty wrote:
On 10/22/2013 11:31 PM, wrote:

When I was a kid, my grandparents had those old push button light

switches all around their house. I used to drive my grandparents crazy

pushing them on and off, because my parents house did not have them, and

I thought they were really cool.



http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Accent.../dp/B0002EVT5Y

That sounds like the right alterative. The originals have
no ground connection, right? And who knows how they are
constructed, meaning I don't think there is a guarantee
all the metal parts are connected together, so even if
you did try to ground it yourself, who knows. And
they aren't listed for use. IMO, no way it would pass
an electrical inspection.


Only a concern with a metal cover plate. But as I said in my previous
post, these were typically used with thick pressed brass plates. Not
sure if plastic pushbutton plates were ever made? I don't remember
seeing any.

nate

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On 10/23/2013 8:09 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
....

sure if plastic pushbutton plates were ever made? I don't remember
seeing any.
....

Were Bakelite covers on at least some I recall in grandparents' farm
house ca 1915-6. Dad rewired it all; the switches are still around but
I've not uncovered the stash of wall plates that must be somewhere
unless sold them, perhaps...

They predate the UL listings so they don't meet Code simply because
there was no way to have them listed; whether they would meet today
(other than the ground) is indeterminate.

Other than ground I'd not be terribly concerned; they operated for 50-60
yr w/o being a problem, it's unlikely they'll be a problem now from a
practical viewpoint.

I've debated going back for the period look and if were to find the
original covers somewhere at some point probably would in at least the
dining and living rooms...

But, replacement listed ones is clearly the more certain alternative.

PS. For those still on an old Delco windcharger system, I've enough
DC-rated ones for a 2-story house...

--

On 10/23/2013 09:20 AM, dpb wrote:
On 10/23/2013 8:09 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
...

sure if plastic pushbutton plates were ever made? I don't remember
seeing any.
...

Were Bakelite covers on at least some I recall in grandparents' farm
house ca 1915-6. Dad rewired it all; the switches are still around but
I've not uncovered the stash of wall plates that must be somewhere
unless sold them, perhaps...

Interesting, learn something new every day.


They predate the UL listings so they don't meet Code simply because
there was no way to have them listed; whether they would meet today
(other than the ground) is indeterminate.

Pedantry time - my NEC is packed away in a very safe place so I can't
refer to it at the moment, but I believe the wording is/was "Nationally
Recognized Testing Laboratory" not UL specifically. Now UL has been
around since the late 1800s so it is possible that the devices might
have been tested/listed at the time. I used to have a couple old
switches as well as a curiosity but I haven't a clue where they've got
off to.


Other than ground I'd not be terribly concerned; they operated for 50-60
yr w/o being a problem, it's unlikely they'll be a problem now from a
practical viewpoint.

I've debated going back for the period look and if were to find the
original covers somewhere at some point probably would in at least the
dining and living rooms...

I do have one or two pressed brass ones (and I know right where those
are) that came with lots that I bought off eBay because when I rewired
the 2nd floor in my last house I wanted a vintage look. Repros are
ludicrously expensive (at least the ones with the nice crisp bevels like
the old ones, not the sloppy looking things that you find available in
Home Depot) but searching eBay for painted over/scruffy looking ones
sold in reasonably priced lots yielded me enough to do the job without
breaking the budget. I didn't mind a little patina, quite the opposite,
so unless they looked really bad I only lifted the paint off by soaking
in hot water and only polished the ones that looked really blotchy or
otherwise unattractive. I didn't use pushbutton switches because the
house was too new, I used new spec-grade brown toggles that I found for
cheap at a ReStore and 3-wire receps that I actually had to pay list for
at the supply house :/ (historical accuracy did not extend in my mind
to installing two wire receps...)

nate


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On 10/23/2013 8:53 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
....

Pedantry time - my NEC is packed away in a very safe place so I can't
refer to it at the moment, but I believe the wording is/was "Nationally
Recognized Testing Laboratory" not UL specifically. Now UL has been
around since the late 1800s so it is possible that the devices might
have been tested/listed at the time. I used to have a couple old
switches as well as a curiosity but I haven't a clue where they've got
off to.

....

OK, speaking of learning something -- I didn't recall there was anything
prior to sometime like in the '30s...but I see the UL website says were
founded in 1894 so that's definitely before I thought were any listings
at all to speak of...so there really is "nothing new under the sun"

I bought a "veritable plethora" of brown switches/outlets from various
places when were marked down for discontinuance at local outlets and
also on eBay in order to have a stash since it has become difficult if
not impossible to find them...I've no intent on switching out entire
rooms to keep a match just because somebody thinks they're not in style
any longer...

I really do like the old mother-of-pearl-inset pushbutton look but they
aren't as handy as the flipper--it takes a more deliberate action to get
them on-off so the modern switch is, I think, a better functioning
device even if less of a visual treat.

I keep looking periodically for replacement overhead fixtures that match
the ones in the living room to replace the modern abomination in the
dining room that was replaced at some time with a more period piece --
I've found the bases and some similar hanging bowls but so far not found
the hand-painted ones enough like those in the living room to make the
move...

I've also managed to find replacement balls for the broken ones on the
lightning rods on the barn; now "all" I've got to do is to finish
refab'ing the rods and getting up there and reinstalling after the roof
(which was back in '07/08... )

--

On 10/23/2013 10:11 AM, dpb wrote:
On 10/23/2013 8:53 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
...

Pedantry time - my NEC is packed away in a very safe place so I can't
refer to it at the moment, but I believe the wording is/was "Nationally
Recognized Testing Laboratory" not UL specifically. Now UL has been
around since the late 1800s so it is possible that the devices might
have been tested/listed at the time. I used to have a couple old
switches as well as a curiosity but I haven't a clue where they've got
off to.

...

OK, speaking of learning something -- I didn't recall there was anything
prior to sometime like in the '30s...but I see the UL website says were
founded in 1894 so that's definitely before I thought were any listings
at all to speak of...so there really is "nothing new under the sun"

I'm just saying that UL existed - I don't know when they actually
started listing devices.


I bought a "veritable plethora" of brown switches/outlets from various
places when were marked down for discontinuance at local outlets and
also on eBay in order to have a stash since it has become difficult if
not impossible to find them...I've no intent on switching out entire
rooms to keep a match just because somebody thinks they're not in style
any longer...

Probably not necessary, they are readily available at your local supply
house. I'm fortunate in that I worked in a construction related field
for a while, so I know where the supply houses are (often hidden) also a
bonus is I can walk in and buy a case of spec grade devices there for
the same price as a case of builder grade devices at Home Depot.
(that's not because I'm special, but because HD is expensive.) Once I
found one whose counter was open on Saturdays, HD/Lowe's became
"emergencies only" sources for electrical stuff.


I really do like the old mother-of-pearl-inset pushbutton look but they
aren't as handy as the flipper--it takes a more deliberate action to get
them on-off so the modern switch is, I think, a better functioning
device even if less of a visual treat.

I still miss the "snap" There were two original switches in my last
house, I saved them. I didn't have a clue where to get more or I would
have put snappy switches in every room (and probably would have ****ed
off SWMBO)


I keep looking periodically for replacement overhead fixtures that match
the ones in the living room to replace the modern abomination in the
dining room that was replaced at some time with a more period piece --
I've found the bases and some similar hanging bowls but so far not found
the hand-painted ones enough like those in the living room to make the
move...

I've also managed to find replacement balls for the broken ones on the
lightning rods on the barn; now "all" I've got to do is to finish
refab'ing the rods and getting up there and reinstalling after the roof
(which was back in '07/08... )

yeah, probably ought to do that. Barn fires suck.

nate


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http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 10/23/2013 9:19 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 10/23/2013 10:11 AM, dpb wrote:
On 10/23/2013 8:53 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
...

Pedantry time - my NEC is packed away in a very safe place so I can't
refer to it at the moment, but I believe the wording is/was "Nationally
Recognized Testing Laboratory" not UL specifically. Now UL has been
around since the late 1800s so it is possible that the devices might
have been tested/listed at the time. I used to have a couple old
switches as well as a curiosity but I haven't a clue where they've got
off to.

...

OK, speaking of learning something -- I didn't recall there was anything
prior to sometime like in the '30s...but I see the UL website says were
founded in 1894 so that's definitely before I thought were any listings
at all to speak of...so there really is "nothing new under the sun"

I'm just saying that UL existed - I don't know when they actually
started listing devices.


I bought a "veritable plethora" of brown switches/outlets from various
places when were marked down for discontinuance at local outlets and
also on eBay in order to have a stash since it has become difficult if
not impossible to find them...I've no intent on switching out entire
rooms to keep a match just because somebody thinks they're not in style
any longer...

Probably not necessary, they are readily available at your local supply
house. I'm fortunate in that I worked in a construction related field
for a while, so I know where the supply houses are (often hidden) also a
bonus is I can walk in and buy a case of spec grade devices there for
the same price as a case of builder grade devices at Home Depot. (that's
not because I'm special, but because HD is expensive.) Once I found one
whose counter was open on Saturdays, HD/Lowe's became "emergencies only"
sources for electrical stuff.


I really do like the old mother-of-pearl-inset pushbutton look but they
aren't as handy as the flipper--it takes a more deliberate action to get
them on-off so the modern switch is, I think, a better functioning
device even if less of a visual treat.

I still miss the "snap" There were two original switches in my last
house, I saved them. I didn't have a clue where to get more or I would
have put snappy switches in every room (and probably would have ****ed
off SWMBO)


I keep looking periodically for replacement overhead fixtures that match
the ones in the living room to replace the modern abomination in the
dining room that was replaced at some time with a more period piece --
I've found the bases and some similar hanging bowls but so far not found
the hand-painted ones enough like those in the living room to make the
move...

I've also managed to find replacement balls for the broken ones on the
lightning rods on the barn; now "all" I've got to do is to finish
refab'ing the rods and getting up there and reinstalling after the roof
(which was back in '07/08... )

yeah, probably ought to do that. Barn fires suck.

The site doesn't really show how/when got to the present listing and the
tie in to NEC and being ubiquitous. It shows having published a list of
some 1000 devices mostly electrical by about the turn of the century.
I'm still guessing but I think it was more like in the 30s or so when
the formalization process that I was thinking more of began to resemble
what we're used to today but I didn't do any more looking than just
cursory at the history page on the UL.com site...I didn't recall they
were quite so early altho it makes sense given the advent after the
Civil War of the real expansion going on.

On supplies and "preemptive hoarding" -- Unfortunately, in small market
locales there aren't many choices. There's only one actual electrical
supply left in town that carries household wiring stuff and they quit
stocking anything in brown several years ago and won't order anything
except case lots (and if you think HD is high, try these guys ). The
other supply house now caters only to the oilfield and packing plant and
other industrial-level stuff. W/ consolidation of the little guys by
the chains that also happens, the various hardware and farm supplies now
are all supplied by Ace and their stock is, therefore, all identical as
well. The nearest HD is 60+ mi so just running down the street isn't
all that practical, either...I'd take the 50s back again in a heartbeat
for many reasons; distributors that actually distributed and a little
variety in choice for just a couple.

What reading I've done indicates that these lightning rod systems
themselves weren't terribly effective; the sizing of the cabling (woven
copper) isn't close to enough to actually do the job in an actual strike
so I think it's mostly a case of wanting to eventually restore the look
again more than a practical matter...perhaps they may bleed a little
charge and thereby lessen odds of strike--that seems to be a bone of
contention in the reading I've done as to whether is so or not.

--

On 10/23/2013 10:50 AM, dpb wrote:

On supplies and "preemptive hoarding" -- Unfortunately, in small market
locales there aren't many choices. There's only one actual electrical
supply left in town that carries household wiring stuff and they quit
stocking anything in brown several years ago and won't order anything
except case lots (and if you think HD is high, try these guys ). The
other supply house now caters only to the oilfield and packing plant and
other industrial-level stuff. W/ consolidation of the little guys by
the chains that also happens, the various hardware and farm supplies now
are all supplied by Ace and their stock is, therefore, all identical as
well. The nearest HD is 60+ mi so just running down the street isn't
all that practical, either...I'd take the 50s back again in a heartbeat
for many reasons; distributors that actually distributed and a little
variety in choice for just a couple.


Dale Electric is a mail order electrical supply place that I've used
several times for odd stuff. I needed a quantity of 2-wire receps to
keep everything "right" while I was progressively rewiring an ungrounded
house (and some idiot had replaced the original ones with 3-wire and
just run jumpers from neutral to ground... what a maroon...) and I
couldn't find any but ivory locally. I think I also got some brown
6-recep adapters from them when I couldn't find them locally either
(needed for around couch in living room, where I tend to plug in cell
phone chargers, laptop power supplies, etc.) I think I also ordered a
whole house surge protector from them because I wanted one but they
weren't common in the Borgs at the time (but they seem to have finally
caught on.)

nate

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wrote in message
news
When I was a kid, my grandparents had those old push button light
switches all around their house. I used to drive my grandparents crazy
pushing them on and off, because my parents house did not have them, and
I thought they were really cool.

Recently I bought a box of assorted electrical parts from an auction and
it had several of those antique push button switches including the brass
plates. I'd like to install a few of them in my house just for the heck
of it. Nostalgia I guess!

They do still work, in fact they seem to be built to last forever out of
heavy porcelain, with a thick brass contact, and viewable spring.

Are they legal to use (by the electrical code) in a newer home that did
not originally have them? I'm not likely to get inspected, but I wanted
to ask.


Bad bad boy

On Wed, 23 Oct 2013 08:51:59 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2013 04:24:57 -0400, morty wrote:

On 10/22/2013 11:31 PM, wrote:
When I was a kid, my grandparents had those old push button light
switches all around their house. I used to drive my grandparents crazy
pushing them on and off, because my parents house did not have them, and
I thought they were really cool.

http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Accent.../dp/B0002EVT5Y

Toggle switches are easier to turn on and off, even while walking out
of the room. One can turn the light off even when one has left the
room, if his arm is still in it. I think that's the reason they
faded from popularity. That's the reason they were not popular with
me. But i can stil see using some now because they are cool.


I would probably feel more comfortable were the yoke of the switch
grounded since you'll obviously be using antique metal covers. Granted
we all managed to survive without that for ages, but still.

When he uses metal wall plates, he can wrap the ground wire around
where the wall plate screw will go, and sandwich it between the plate
and the yoke. He can put the screw through the plate and wrap the
wire tightely enough around it to stay there until the plate is
screwed down. Or if not enough thickness available, he can cut out
a thin sheet metal yoke, like a big wide Y, and clip or solder the
ground wire to that.

I remember those switches in my grandparents' house as well. And
exposed K&T wiring in the attic and basement...

nate

On Wednesday, October 23, 2013 12:33:23 PM UTC-4, micky wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2013 08:51:59 -0400, Nate Nagel

wrote:

On Wed, 23 Oct 2013 04:24:57 -0400, morty wrote:



On 10/22/2013 11:31 PM, wrote:

When I was a kid, my grandparents had those old push button light

switches all around their house. I used to drive my grandparents crazy

pushing them on and off, because my parents house did not have them, and

I thought they were really cool.



http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Accent.../dp/B0002EVT5Y



Toggle switches are easier to turn on and off, even while walking out

of the room. One can turn the light off even when one has left the

room, if his arm is still in it. I think that's the reason they

faded from popularity. That's the reason they were not popular with

me. But i can stil see using some now because they are cool.





I would probably feel more comfortable were the yoke of the switch

grounded since you'll obviously be using antique metal covers. Granted

we all managed to survive without that for ages, but still.



When he uses metal wall plates, he can wrap the ground wire around

where the wall plate screw will go, and sandwich it between the plate

and the yoke. He can put the screw through the plate and wrap the

wire tightely enough around it to stay there until the plate is

screwed down. Or if not enough thickness available, he can cut out

a thin sheet metal yoke, like a big wide Y, and clip or solder the

ground wire to that.



And you're saying that meets code? That was the question.

On 10/23/2013 01:10 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, October 23, 2013 12:33:23 PM UTC-4, micky wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2013 08:51:59 -0400, Nate Nagel

wrote:

On Wed, 23 Oct 2013 04:24:57 -0400, morty wrote:



On 10/22/2013 11:31 PM, wrote:

When I was a kid, my grandparents had those old push button light

switches all around their house. I used to drive my grandparents crazy

pushing them on and off, because my parents house did not have them, and

I thought they were really cool.



http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Accent.../dp/B0002EVT5Y



Toggle switches are easier to turn on and off, even while walking out

of the room. One can turn the light off even when one has left the

room, if his arm is still in it. I think that's the reason they

faded from popularity. That's the reason they were not popular with

me. But i can stil see using some now because they are cool.





I would probably feel more comfortable were the yoke of the switch

grounded since you'll obviously be using antique metal covers. Granted

we all managed to survive without that for ages, but still.



When he uses metal wall plates, he can wrap the ground wire around

where the wall plate screw will go, and sandwich it between the plate

and the yoke. He can put the screw through the plate and wrap the

wire tightely enough around it to stay there until the plate is

screwed down. Or if not enough thickness available, he can cut out

a thin sheet metal yoke, like a big wide Y, and clip or solder the

ground wire to that.



And you're saying that meets code? That was the question.




Exactly. I'd probably solder a 14AWG pigtail to the back of the yoke,
myself. That would satisfy *me* but nothing will make them meet current
code I doubt.

nate

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On 10/23/2013 7:53 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 10/23/2013 09:20 AM, dpb wrote:
On 10/23/2013 8:09 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
...

sure if plastic pushbutton plates were ever made? I don't remember
seeing any.

I have seen them. I wouldn't be they are being made now.
...


They predate the UL listings so they don't meet Code simply because
there was no way to have them listed; whether they would meet today
(other than the ground) is indeterminate.

Pedantry time - my NEC is packed away in a very safe place so I can't
refer to it at the moment, but I believe the wording is/was "Nationally
Recognized Testing Laboratory" not UL specifically. Now UL has been
around since the late 1800s so it is possible that the devices might
have been tested/listed at the time.

I don't think of UL as being that old, but it is. That is around the
first major victory of AC over Edison's DC - The Chicago Columbian
Exposition of 1893 (celebrated the 400th anniversary of Columbus'
arrival in the Americas - almost). UL resulted from the Columbian
Exposition.

NTRL used to be in the NEC.

Now it is "110.2 Approval ... acceptable only if approved."

And
"Approved. Acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction."

"Labeled ...identifying mark of an organization that is acceptable to
the authority having jurisdiction...."

"Listed ... included in a list published by an organization that is
acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction...."

The bottom line - the old switches are fine IF the inspector allows them.

I still have 1 original pushbutton switch in the house, which is OK
because it was OK when installed. Not obvious it would be allowed to be
install elsewhere.

On Wed, 23 Oct 2013 10:10:37 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:




When he uses metal wall plates, he can wrap the ground wire around

where the wall plate screw will go, and sandwich it between the plate

and the yoke. He can put the screw through the plate and wrap the

wire tightely enough around it to stay there until the plate is

screwed down. Or if not enough thickness available, he can cut out

a thin sheet metal yoke, like a big wide Y, and clip or solder the

ground wire to that.



And you're saying that meets code? That was the question.

It meets the intent of the code. The code may not be written for
every situation.

On Wed, 23 Oct 2013 08:51:59 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

I would probably feel more comfortable were the yoke of the switch
grounded since you'll obviously be using antique metal covers. Granted
we all managed to survive without that for ages, but still.

I remember those switches in my grandparents' house as well. And
exposed K&T wiring in the attic and basement...

nate

Considering that I always use metal boxes and ground them to the bare
wire, my cover plate IS grounded. I dont care for those plastic boxes,
and for a small price difference, I'd rather have the metal ones.

Nate Nagel writes:
On 10/23/2013 01:10 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, October 23, 2013 12:33:23 PM UTC-4, micky wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2013 08:51:59 -0400, Nate Nagel

wrote:

On Wed, 23 Oct 2013 04:24:57 -0400, morty wrote:



On 10/22/2013 11:31 PM, wrote:

When I was a kid, my grandparents had those old push button light

switches all around their house. I used to drive my grandparents crazy

pushing them on and off, because my parents house did not have them, and

I thought they were really cool.



http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Accent.../dp/B0002EVT5Y



Toggle switches are easier to turn on and off, even while walking out

of the room. One can turn the light off even when one has left the

room, if his arm is still in it. I think that's the reason they

faded from popularity. That's the reason they were not popular with

me. But i can stil see using some now because they are cool.





I would probably feel more comfortable were the yoke of the switch

grounded since you'll obviously be using antique metal covers. Granted

we all managed to survive without that for ages, but still.



When he uses metal wall plates, he can wrap the ground wire around

where the wall plate screw will go, and sandwich it between the plate

and the yoke. He can put the screw through the plate and wrap the

wire tightely enough around it to stay there until the plate is

screwed down. Or if not enough thickness available, he can cut out

a thin sheet metal yoke, like a big wide Y, and clip or solder the

ground wire to that.



And you're saying that meets code? That was the question.




Exactly. I'd probably solder a 14AWG pigtail to the back of the yoke,
myself. That would satisfy *me* but nothing will make them meet current
code I doubt.


If the handy-box is steel, then the screws holding the brass cover plate will
be a sufficent ground. (if the handy-box itself is, as the NEC requires,
grounded independent of the device).

"bud--" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 10/23/2013 7:53 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 10/23/2013 09:20 AM, dpb wrote:
On 10/23/2013 8:09 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
...

sure if plastic pushbutton plates were ever made? I don't remember
seeing any.

I have seen them. I wouldn't be they are being made now.
...


They predate the UL listings so they don't meet Code simply because
there was no way to have them listed; whether they would meet today
(other than the ground) is indeterminate.

Pedantry time - my NEC is packed away in a very safe place so I can't
refer to it at the moment, but I believe the wording is/was "Nationally
Recognized Testing Laboratory" not UL specifically. Now UL has been
around since the late 1800s so it is possible that the devices might
have been tested/listed at the time.

I don't think of UL as being that old, but it is. That is around the first
major victory of AC over Edison's DC - The Chicago Columbian Exposition of
1893 (celebrated the 400th anniversary of Columbus' arrival in the
Americas - almost). UL resulted from the Columbian Exposition.

NTRL used to be in the NEC.

Now it is "110.2 Approval ... acceptable only if approved."

And
"Approved. Acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction."

"Labeled ...identifying mark of an organization that is acceptable to the
authority having jurisdiction...."

"Listed ... included in a list published by an organization that is
acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction...."

The bottom line - the old switches are fine IF the inspector allows them.

I still have 1 original pushbutton switch in the house, which is OK
because it was OK when installed. Not obvious it would be allowed to be
install elsewhere.

UL has a fascinating history and, yes, it was started by insurance
underwriters because of the Chicago Columbian Exposition of 1893 which was
the first major use of electricity for building lighting both indoors and
out. The Exposition buildings were substantially made out of paper mache and
very flammable so the insurance folks were rightly concerned. After the
exposition, the buildings did, in fact, burn when a massive fire, probably
started by squatters, leveled what was called the "White City". Supposedly,
the flames were visible as far away as Milwaukee.

Many think of UL as a government entity, but it's not. The part of UL that
writes the electrical safety standards is a private non-profit company and
many volunteers serve on the standards-writing panels.

Tomsic

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2013 04:24:57 -0400, morty wrote:

On 10/22/2013 11:31 PM, wrote:
When I was a kid, my grandparents had those old push button light
switches all around their house. I used to drive my grandparents crazy
pushing them on and off, because my parents house did not have them, and
I thought they were really cool.

http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Accent.../dp/B0002EVT5Y


I think this line answers the question:
Replace your old push button light switches with these to bring your
electrical up to code.

If it were me, I'd make sure that that line wasn't just advertising. What
makes the "Classic Accents" switch code compliant as compared to what they
are replacing?

On 10/22/2013 20:31, wrote:

... I'd like to install a few of them in my house just for the heck
of it. Nostalgia I guess!

One thing that might not be so nostalgic is the snapping noise the
switch makes. The sound resonates differently with modern drywall than
it does with the more solid lath and plaster.

Nate Nagel wrote:

....snip....

I still miss the "snap" There were two original switches in my last
house, I saved them. I didn't have a clue where to get more or I would
have put snappy switches in every room (and probably would have ****ed off SWMBO)


....snip...

nate


We're the exact opposite. When I moved into my first (and only) apartment
thirty-something years ago, I swapped out all of the snappy switches for
them new fangled silent ones. I saved all of the snappy ones and when I
moved out 3 years later, I reinstalled them in the apartment. I then used
the silent ones to replace the snappy ones in the house I bought.

TimR wrote:
On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:31:20 PM UTC-4, wrote:
When I was a kid, my grandparents had those old push button light

switches all around their house. I used to drive my grandparents crazy

pushing them on and off, because my parents house did not have them, and

I thought they were really cool.

We had them in a house when I was about 8.

The landlord had a severe intention tremor. Parkinson's maybe? I was
too young to be told.

It was quite disturbing to a young child to watch him try, and try, and
try to turn a light on or off. He'd miss in all possible directions.

When I was in the service in Alaska one of the bush pilots we flew with had
some kind of tremor related disease. His hands would be steady on the yoke
but whenever he would reach out to adjust any of the controls his hand
would shake, and I mean a lot!

You think it was disturbing to watch a guy with a shaky hand try to turn on
a light? How about sitting next to a shaky pilot while flying over the
frozen tundra or worse yet an almost frozen bay?

On 10/23/2013 7:37 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
TimR wrote:
On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:31:20 PM UTC-4, wrote:
When I was a kid, my grandparents had those old push button light

switches all around their house. I used to drive my grandparents crazy

pushing them on and off, because my parents house did not have them, and

I thought they were really cool.

We had them in a house when I was about 8.

The landlord had a severe intention tremor. Parkinson's maybe? I was
too young to be told.

It was quite disturbing to a young child to watch him try, and try, and
try to turn a light on or off. He'd miss in all possible directions.

When I was in the service in Alaska one of the bush pilots we flew with had
some kind of tremor related disease. His hands would be steady on the yoke
but whenever he would reach out to adjust any of the controls his hand
would shake, and I mean a lot!

You think it was disturbing to watch a guy with a shaky hand try to turn on
a light? How about sitting next to a shaky pilot while flying over the
frozen tundra or worse yet an almost frozen bay?


I'm sure you remember Mel Tillis the stuttering country singer who is
now 81. He stutters when talking but not when he sings. I imagine he
wouldn't work out as an emergency dispatcher because he would have to
sing to get an emergency message across. ^_^

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aweaoakyK8

TDD

On 10/23/2013 02:44 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2013 08:51:59 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

I would probably feel more comfortable were the yoke of the switch
grounded since you'll obviously be using antique metal covers. Granted
we all managed to survive without that for ages, but still.

I remember those switches in my grandparents' house as well. And
exposed K&T wiring in the attic and basement...

nate

Considering that I always use metal boxes and ground them to the bare
wire, my cover plate IS grounded. I dont care for those plastic boxes,
and for a small price difference, I'd rather have the metal ones.


That's a good practice, but those switches pre-date the self-grounding
clips used on better devices so you don't have to run a pigtail from the
box to the yoke.

'nother thing - only older flat head screws will work with the old cover
plates. Newer pan head combo screws will make the plate hit the screw
heads before the plaster.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 10/23/2013 03:02 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Nate Nagel writes:
On 10/23/2013 01:10 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, October 23, 2013 12:33:23 PM UTC-4, micky wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2013 08:51:59 -0400, Nate Nagel

wrote:

On Wed, 23 Oct 2013 04:24:57 -0400, morty wrote:



On 10/22/2013 11:31 PM, wrote:

When I was a kid, my grandparents had those old push button light

switches all around their house. I used to drive my grandparents crazy

pushing them on and off, because my parents house did not have them, and

I thought they were really cool.



http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Accent.../dp/B0002EVT5Y



Toggle switches are easier to turn on and off, even while walking out

of the room. One can turn the light off even when one has left the

room, if his arm is still in it. I think that's the reason they

faded from popularity. That's the reason they were not popular with

me. But i can stil see using some now because they are cool.





I would probably feel more comfortable were the yoke of the switch

grounded since you'll obviously be using antique metal covers. Granted

we all managed to survive without that for ages, but still.



When he uses metal wall plates, he can wrap the ground wire around

where the wall plate screw will go, and sandwich it between the plate

and the yoke. He can put the screw through the plate and wrap the

wire tightely enough around it to stay there until the plate is

screwed down. Or if not enough thickness available, he can cut out

a thin sheet metal yoke, like a big wide Y, and clip or solder the

ground wire to that.



And you're saying that meets code? That was the question.




Exactly. I'd probably solder a 14AWG pigtail to the back of the yoke,
myself. That would satisfy *me* but nothing will make them meet current
code I doubt.


If the handy-box is steel, then the screws holding the brass cover plate will
be a sufficent ground. (if the handy-box itself is, as the NEC requires,
grounded independent of the device).

That's not the way code treats it... look at a "spec grade" device, it
generally is self-grounding as well, there's a brass colored clip on one
end of the yoke making a more positive connection with the screw holding
the yoke to the box. Cheaper devices won't have that but will still
definitely have a ground screw. The older devices don't have that nor
do they have a ground screw connected to the yoke. The only ground path
is provided by the yoke to box screws which isn't currently considered
sufficient. (in practice, it probably is... I'm just being pedantic here.)

nate



--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel writes:
On 10/23/2013 03:02 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:


If the handy-box is steel, then the screws holding the brass cover plate will
be a sufficent ground. (if the handy-box itself is, as the NEC requires,
grounded independent of the device).

That's not the way code treats it... look at a "spec grade" device, it
generally is self-grounding as well, there's a brass colored clip on one
end of the yoke making a more positive connection with the screw holding
the yoke to the box. Cheaper devices won't have that but will still
definitely have a ground screw. The older devices don't have that nor
do they have a ground screw connected to the yoke. The only ground path
is provided by the yoke to box screws which isn't currently considered
sufficient. (in practice, it probably is... I'm just being pedantic here.)

If by "yoke" you are referring to the bit on the device (i.e. switch body)
that contacts the screw which holds the device into the box and is directly
connected to the grounding post on the device, that's not sufficient by
code to ground a non-grounded metal handybox. You still must, per NEC,
attach the box directly to the ground (generally by pigtailing the grounding (not grounded)
conductor feeding the box or alternatively by using listed conduit fittings
with conductive, properly grounded conduit) - you cannot rely on the grounded
device grounding the box via the screw attaching the device to the box.

A metal cover plate is sufficiently grounded by the screws (assuming they're
conductive) attaching it to the handy-box. Look at any UL-listed metal utility
cover at your local electrical aisle.

On 10/24/2013 10:19 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Nate Nagel writes:
On 10/23/2013 03:02 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:


If the handy-box is steel, then the screws holding the brass cover plate will
be a sufficent ground. (if the handy-box itself is, as the NEC requires,
grounded independent of the device).

That's not the way code treats it... look at a "spec grade" device, it
generally is self-grounding as well, there's a brass colored clip on one
end of the yoke making a more positive connection with the screw holding
the yoke to the box. Cheaper devices won't have that but will still
definitely have a ground screw. The older devices don't have that nor
do they have a ground screw connected to the yoke. The only ground path
is provided by the yoke to box screws which isn't currently considered
sufficient. (in practice, it probably is... I'm just being pedantic here.)

If by "yoke" you are referring to the bit on the device (i.e. switch body)
that contacts the screw which holds the device into the box and is directly
connected to the grounding post on the device, that's not sufficient by
code to ground a non-grounded metal handybox.

Agreed. I'm thinking of the instance of a plastic single gang switch
box where the box itself is not grounded but you want to use a metal
cover plate. And the "yoke" is in fact the metal strap with the holes
in it to connect the device to the box, it has a specific definition.

You still must, per NEC,
attach the box directly to the ground (generally by pigtailing the grounding (not grounded)
conductor feeding the box or alternatively by using listed conduit fittings
with conductive, properly grounded conduit) - you cannot rely on the grounded
device grounding the box via the screw attaching the device to the box.

Again, we're thinking of this in the opposite direction. A metal box of
any type should always be grounded, that is not only code but a best
practice. But what I am concerned about is the instance where a hot
conductor could contact the yoke or the cover plate without a path to
ground. The fuse or breaker will not trip, therefore an occupant could
take a shot up the arm if they touch the cover plate while grounded.

A metal cover plate is sufficiently grounded by the screws (assuming they're
conductive) attaching it to the handy-box. Look at any UL-listed metal utility
cover at your local electrical aisle.

But the screws aren't connection the cover to the box, they're
connecting the cover to the yoke. The yoke is screwed to the box by
6-32 machine screws. Now the odd thing is that my memory says that the
NEC considers that a sufficient ground for a snap switch (assuming a
metal box) but doesn't consider it a sufficient ground for a receptacle,
unless it has the little special clip on one of the mounting screws and
is explicitly marked as "self-grounding." I'm assuming that that will
change in future revisions of the NEC. In any case, I would be sort of
hesitant to use an antique, non-grounding type switch without a
grounding pigtail securely attached to the yoke in a metal box
(duplicating the function of the grounding screw in a modern snap
switch) and under no circumstances would I install it in a plastic box
without the same, unless it was on a GFCI protected circuit. Whether an
AHJ would find either arrangement acceptable is yet another subject
entirely, and generally they tend to err on the side of caution.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel writes:
On 10/24/2013 10:19 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Nate Nagel writes:
On 10/23/2013 03:02 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

A metal cover plate is sufficiently grounded by the screws (assuming they're
conductive) attaching it to the handy-box. Look at any UL-listed metal utility
cover at your local electrical aisle.

But the screws aren't connection the cover to the box, they're
connecting the cover to the yoke. The yoke is screwed to the box by

Ah, good point. I had blank covers in mind, which connect directly to
the box, but you are correct that a switch cover will connect to the switch
yoke.

6-32 machine screws. Now the odd thing is that my memory says that the
NEC considers that a sufficient ground for a snap switch (assuming a
metal box) but doesn't consider it a sufficient ground for a receptacle,

I suspect this may be because the switch cover has two screws, while a
receptacle cover has one.

I don't have my copy of the code handy, so I can't unfortunately look it up,
but I will later since I wonder about the standard metal utility receptacle
covers used in commercial settings.

unless it has the little special clip on one of the mounting screws and
is explicitly marked as "self-grounding." I'm assuming that that will

I believe (will have to check later) that a grounded receptacle (spec or
hospital grade) will have a grounded "nut" to receive the cover screw,
and that should be sufficient. For a non-grounded (two-pole) receptacle
with the "special clip" all bets are off.

Whether an
AHJ would find either arrangement acceptable is yet another subject
entirely, and generally they tend to err on the side of caution.

To which I say "hear! hear!".

scott

On 10/24/2013 10:17 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Nate writes:
On 10/24/2013 10:19 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Nate writes:
On 10/23/2013 03:02 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

A metal cover plate is sufficiently grounded by the screws (assuming they're
conductive) attaching it to the handy-box. Look at any UL-listed metal utility
cover at your local electrical aisle.

But the screws aren't connection the cover to the box, they're
connecting the cover to the yoke. The yoke is screwed to the box by

Ah, good point. I had blank covers in mind, which connect directly to
the box, but you are correct that a switch cover will connect to the switch
yoke.

6-32 machine screws. Now the odd thing is that my memory says that the
NEC considers that a sufficient ground for a snap switch (assuming a
metal box) but doesn't consider it a sufficient ground for a receptacle,

I suspect this may be because the switch cover has two screws, while a
receptacle cover has one.

I don't have my copy of the code handy, so I can't unfortunately look it up,
but I will later since I wonder about the standard metal utility receptacle
covers used in commercial settings.

unless it has the little special clip on one of the mounting screws and
is explicitly marked as "self-grounding." I'm assuming that that will

I believe (will have to check later) that a grounded receptacle (spec or
hospital grade) will have a grounded "nut" to receive the cover screw,
and that should be sufficient. For a non-grounded (two-pole) receptacle
with the "special clip" all bets are off.

Whether an
AHJ would find either arrangement acceptable is yet another subject
entirely, and generally they tend to err on the side of caution.

To which I say "hear! hear!".


Getting hard to remember exactly what has been said.

A switch has to be grounded because it might some day have a metal plate.
A switch can be grounded if screwed to a metal box (which is required to
be grounded).
Else (with a plastic box) the switch must be grounded with a ground wire.

A receptacle may be grounded by the 2 screws to a grounded metal box
only if it seats solidly on a surface mounted box.
Or if there is a raised cover on a 4" square metal box, the cover can be
grounded by being screwed to the surface mounted box. But the receptacle
then has to be mounted to the cover with 2 screws (not the normal single
screw in the center of the receptacle).
Else with either metal or plastic box the receptacle has to be grounded
with a ground wire.

The Daring Dufas posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


On 10/23/2013 7:37 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
TimR wrote:
On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:31:20 PM UTC-4, wrote:
When I was a kid, my grandparents had those old push button light

switches all around their house. I used to drive my grandparents crazy

pushing them on and off, because my parents house did not have them, and

I thought they were really cool.

We had them in a house when I was about 8.

The landlord had a severe intention tremor. Parkinson's maybe? I was
too young to be told.

It was quite disturbing to a young child to watch him try, and try, and
try to turn a light on or off. He'd miss in all possible directions.

When I was in the service in Alaska one of the bush pilots we flew with had
some kind of tremor related disease. His hands would be steady on the yoke
but whenever he would reach out to adjust any of the controls his hand
would shake, and I mean a lot!

You think it was disturbing to watch a guy with a shaky hand try to turn on
a light? How about sitting next to a shaky pilot while flying over the
frozen tundra or worse yet an almost frozen bay?


I'm sure you remember Mel Tillis the stuttering country singer who is
now 81. He stutters when talking but not when he sings. I imagine he
wouldn't work out as an emergency dispatcher because he would have to
sing to get an emergency message across. ^_^

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aweaoakyK8

TDD

Suicide hotline I won't cut you off.

Incontinence hotline please hold.

******* Police, sorry we are closed.

--
Tekkie

A newer version is still produced-they can be ordered from antique hardware suppliers.

On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 at 9:31:20 PM UTC-6, wrote:
When I was a kid, my grandparents had those old push button light
switches all around their house. I used to drive my grandparents crazy
pushing them on and off, because my parents house did not have them, and
I thought they were really cool.

Recently I bought a box of assorted electrical parts from an auction and
it had several of those antique push button switches including the brass
plates. I'd like to install a few of them in my house just for the heck
of it. Nostalgia I guess!

They do still work, in fact they seem to be built to last forever out of
heavy porcelain, with a thick brass contact, and viewable spring.

Are they legal to use (by the electrical code) in a newer home that did
not originally have them? I'm not likely to get inspected, but I wanted
to ask.

These are still produced--order from an antique hardware supply company.

On Saturday, June 20, 2015 at 1:53:37 PM UTC-5, wrote:
A newer version is still produced-they can be ordered from antique hardware suppliers.

There goes the Way-back Machine again. Heck, there's a post from my brother! ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Brother Monster