On 9/25/2013 9:09 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in
message ...
I only put the ammeter across a load that won't damage the meter, I
did mention that first. The shunt in my meter is good for 20 amps
and I certainly wouldn't put it across a circuit that would exceed
the safety limits of the meter. That's why I only do it for low
current loads. The little circuit breakers with test leads help
narrow down a problem with an overload while saving fuses at the
same time. I may be assuming that others know enough not to do
anything unsafe but I don't want to appear patronizing. I'm only
giving general information from my own experience and I hope no one
believes the same procedures work with dangerous high voltages and
currents. ^_^

Did you ever try the light bulb instead of a fuse ?

Depending on the normal load, you can use a 100 watt light bulb
(wattage to vary depending on normal current usage) in place of the
fuse. When the light bulb glows much dimmer or not at all then you
have found the problem that usually blows the fuse.


Putting the amp meter across the fuse will not depend on the load,
but the actual ammount of current that can be sourced. Say the
normal load is only 10 amps, your meter is good for 20 amps, but the
source is good for 100 amps. If you have an almost short at the
load, close to 100 amps is going to try and pass through your 20 amp
meter which is now toast , or hopefully the internal meter fuse
blows.

You should only put the amp meter in line when you get the fuse to
stop blowing. Then it should be safe to see how much current is
actually being used.



I had a 100w, 150w and 200w bulbs that I soldered test leads with
alligator clips to when I was working as a bench tech back when
appliances and TV sets used a lot more power. In the past 20 years,
most of the service work I've done has been mobile and not a good
place to have glass bulbs bouncing around in a vehicle. I'm sorry but
I keep assuming others would do what I do without thinking. The light
bulb in series with a Simpson 260 was SOP when working on two way radios
to check the DC current draw. A shunt was needed for AC current tests
since those meters would only test up to 10 amps DC. A separate AC
ammeter worked for bench testing. I had variable power supplies that
indicated voltage and current being drawn by equipment when bench
testing plus those power supplies had adjustable current limits that
would drop voltage to zero when the limit was reached. The small
resettable circuit breakers I used were put in series with the DMM when
testing current draw. I repeat, never use a DMM to check current in line
if you know it will exceed the safety limits of the meter. Test leads
can melt or have the tips burned off. It's not a problem to put a DMM
across a fuse when testing a radio being powered by a 12vdc power supply
which is rated at 3 amps and has a built in circuit breaker like the
small power supplies sold by Radio Shack for many years. It's been a
while since I've been in a Radio Shack store to buy discrete components
or batteries. If I'm working on a small AC appliance that would draw 5
amps/600 watts,(look at the label). The small circuit breaker in series
with with a DMM having a 10 amp range is completely safe unless you are
dumb enough (like me) to touch the exposed test clips and get a shock.
Even if the small circuit breaker is not used and the appliance has a
dead short, the 20 amp breaker supplying power to the outlet you are
plugged into will trip. The small circuit breakers
I once put together on my own are now sold at supply houses with the
pigtails and test clip already on them. When repairing electrical or
electronic gear, the best test equipment are your eyes, ears and nose. ^_^

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 9/25/2013 9:09 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in
message ...
I only put the ammeter across a load that won't damage the meter, I
did mention that first. The shunt in my meter is good for 20 amps
and I certainly wouldn't put it across a circuit that would exceed
the safety limits of the meter. That's why I only do it for low
current loads. The little circuit breakers with test leads help
narrow down a problem with an overload while saving fuses at the
same time. I may be assuming that others know enough not to do
anything unsafe but I don't want to appear patronizing. I'm only
giving general information from my own experience and I hope no one
believes the same procedures work with dangerous high voltages and
currents. ^_^

Did you ever try the light bulb instead of a fuse ?

Depending on the normal load, you can use a 100 watt light bulb
(wattage to vary depending on normal current usage) in place of the
fuse. When the light bulb glows much dimmer or not at all then you
have found the problem that usually blows the fuse.


Putting the amp meter across the fuse will not depend on the load,
but the actual ammount of current that can be sourced. Say the
normal load is only 10 amps, your meter is good for 20 amps, but the
source is good for 100 amps. If you have an almost short at the
load, close to 100 amps is going to try and pass through your 20 amp
meter which is now toast , or hopefully the internal meter fuse
blows.

You should only put the amp meter in line when you get the fuse to
stop blowing. Then it should be safe to see how much current is
actually being used.



I had a 100w, 150w and 200w bulbs that I soldered test leads with
alligator clips to when I was working as a bench tech back when
appliances and TV sets used a lot more power. In the past 20 years,
most of the service work I've done has been mobile and not a good
place to have glass bulbs bouncing around in a vehicle. I'm sorry but
I keep assuming others would do what I do without thinking. The light
bulb in series with a Simpson 260 was SOP when working on two way radios
to check the DC current draw. A shunt was needed for AC current tests
since those meters would only test up to 10 amps DC. A separate AC
ammeter worked for bench testing. I had variable power supplies that
indicated voltage and current being drawn by equipment when bench
testing plus those power supplies had adjustable current limits that
would drop voltage to zero when the limit was reached. The small
resettable circuit breakers I used were put in series with the DMM when
testing current draw. I repeat, never use a DMM to check current in line
if you know it will exceed the safety limits of the meter. Test leads can
melt or have the tips burned off. It's not a problem to put a DMM across
a fuse when testing a radio being powered by a 12vdc power supply which
is rated at 3 amps and has a built in circuit breaker like the small
power supplies sold by Radio Shack for many years. It's been a while
since I've been in a Radio Shack store to buy discrete components or
batteries. If I'm working on a small AC appliance that would draw 5
amps/600 watts,(look at the label). The small circuit breaker in series
with with a DMM having a 10 amp range is completely safe unless you are
dumb enough (like me) to touch the exposed test clips and get a shock.
Even if the small circuit breaker is not used and the appliance has a
dead short, the 20 amp breaker supplying power to the outlet you are
plugged into will trip. The small circuit breakers
I once put together on my own are now sold at supply houses with the
pigtails and test clip already on them. When repairing electrical or
electronic gear, the best test equipment are your eyes, ears and nose. ^_^

TDD

"...unless you are dumb enough (like me) to touch the exposed test
clips and get a shock."

....or the banana plug on the end of a jumper cable.

In my case it was the second week of USCG Electronics School training. On
the worktable in front of us, we each had a 400 VDC power supply training
device which was plugged into a power strip.

There was a ~4" jumper cable, with a banana plug on each end, that
connected two sections of the power supply. The jumper could be pulled out
to break the device down into smaller sections for troubleshooting
training. Basically you were removing the load. The normal procedure was to
shut the power supply down, pull the jumper and then power it back on.

Heck, I don't need to go through all that. I'll just hooked my finger into
the loop and pull the cable out. So, with my forearm resting on the
chassis, I hooked my finger into the jumper and pulled. Too bad one banana
plug (on the output side) was a lot looser then the other one. With input
side still plugged in, the loose end flipped up and laid against my thumb.
With my arm laying on the chassis (read: ground) I became the new load for
the 400 VDC.

My arm spasmed and I couldn't pull it away from the chassis. Instinctively,
I reached out my other hand to pushed the chassis away. All that
accomplished was to cause the current to flow from one hand to the other
through my upper body. I was holding a 30 lb power supply up off the table
as if it was weightless, yelling "Turn if off! Turn it off!" as my whole
upper body spasmed.

The guy at the table in front of me turned around and grabbed the power
cord in an attempt to unplug the device. Unfortunately, the power strip was
not secured to the table so it just came up with the cord. The guy next to
me reached over and slapped the power strip back onto the table which
unplugged the device.

I dropped (actually, threw) the power supply onto the floor and they drove
me over to the infirmary for an EKG. Other than the burns on my hand, I was
apparently OK.

When I came back to class the next day all of the power strips had been
screwed down to the work surfaces and 2 other guys had quit electronics
school after witnessing my near demise. They quit ET school and I went on
to work on devices that had power supplies in the range of 25KVDC.

Luckily (?) I still have the scars on my hand to remind me of how stupid I
was. I've been a lot more careful since then.

On 9/25/2013 3:25 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 9/25/2013 9:09 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in
message ...
I only put the ammeter across a load that won't damage the
meter, I did mention that first. The shunt in my meter is good
for 20 amps and I certainly wouldn't put it across a circuit
that would exceed the safety limits of the meter. That's why I
only do it for low current loads. The little circuit breakers
with test leads help narrow down a problem with an overload
while saving fuses at the same time. I may be assuming that
others know enough not to do anything unsafe but I don't want
to appear patronizing. I'm only giving general information from
my own experience and I hope no one believes the same
procedures work with dangerous high voltages and currents. ^_^

Did you ever try the light bulb instead of a fuse ?

Depending on the normal load, you can use a 100 watt light bulb
(wattage to vary depending on normal current usage) in place of
the fuse. When the light bulb glows much dimmer or not at all
then you have found the problem that usually blows the fuse.


Putting the amp meter across the fuse will not depend on the
load, but the actual ammount of current that can be sourced. Say
the normal load is only 10 amps, your meter is good for 20 amps,
but the source is good for 100 amps. If you have an almost short
at the load, close to 100 amps is going to try and pass through
your 20 amp meter which is now toast , or hopefully the internal
meter fuse blows.

You should only put the amp meter in line when you get the fuse
to stop blowing. Then it should be safe to see how much current
is actually being used.



I had a 100w, 150w and 200w bulbs that I soldered test leads with
alligator clips to when I was working as a bench tech back when
appliances and TV sets used a lot more power. In the past 20
years, most of the service work I've done has been mobile and not a
good place to have glass bulbs bouncing around in a vehicle. I'm
sorry but I keep assuming others would do what I do without
thinking. The light bulb in series with a Simpson 260 was SOP when
working on two way radios to check the DC current draw. A shunt was
needed for AC current tests since those meters would only test up
to 10 amps DC. A separate AC ammeter worked for bench testing. I
had variable power supplies that indicated voltage and current
being drawn by equipment when bench testing plus those power
supplies had adjustable current limits that would drop voltage to
zero when the limit was reached. The small resettable circuit
breakers I used were put in series with the DMM when testing
current draw. I repeat, never use a DMM to check current in line if
you know it will exceed the safety limits of the meter. Test leads
can melt or have the tips burned off. It's not a problem to put a
DMM across a fuse when testing a radio being powered by a 12vdc
power supply which is rated at 3 amps and has a built in circuit
breaker like the small power supplies sold by Radio Shack for many
years. It's been a while since I've been in a Radio Shack store to
buy discrete components or batteries. If I'm working on a small AC
appliance that would draw 5 amps/600 watts,(look at the label). The
small circuit breaker in series with with a DMM having a 10 amp
range is completely safe unless you are dumb enough (like me) to
touch the exposed test clips and get a shock. Even if the small
circuit breaker is not used and the appliance has a dead short, the
20 amp breaker supplying power to the outlet you are plugged into
will trip. The small circuit breakers I once put together on my own
are now sold at supply houses with the pigtails and test clip
already on them. When repairing electrical or electronic gear, the
best test equipment are your eyes, ears and nose. ^_^

TDD

"...unless you are dumb enough (like me) to touch the exposed
test clips and get a shock."

...or the banana plug on the end of a jumper cable.

In my case it was the second week of USCG Electronics School
training. On the worktable in front of us, we each had a 400 VDC
power supply training device which was plugged into a power strip.

There was a ~4" jumper cable, with a banana plug on each end, that
connected two sections of the power supply. The jumper could be
pulled out to break the device down into smaller sections for
troubleshooting training. Basically you were removing the load. The
normal procedure was to shut the power supply down, pull the jumper
and then power it back on.

Heck, I don't need to go through all that. I'll just hooked my finger
into the loop and pull the cable out. So, with my forearm resting on
the chassis, I hooked my finger into the jumper and pulled. Too bad
one banana plug (on the output side) was a lot looser then the other
one. With input side still plugged in, the loose end flipped up and
laid against my thumb. With my arm laying on the chassis (read:
ground) I became the new load for the 400 VDC.

My arm spasmed and I couldn't pull it away from the chassis.
Instinctively, I reached out my other hand to pushed the chassis
away. All that accomplished was to cause the current to flow from one
hand to the other through my upper body. I was holding a 30 lb power
supply up off the table as if it was weightless, yelling "Turn if
off! Turn it off!" as my whole upper body spasmed.

The guy at the table in front of me turned around and grabbed the
power cord in an attempt to unplug the device. Unfortunately, the
power strip was not secured to the table so it just came up with the
cord. The guy next to me reached over and slapped the power strip
back onto the table which unplugged the device.

I dropped (actually, threw) the power supply onto the floor and they
drove me over to the infirmary for an EKG. Other than the burns on my
hand, I was apparently OK.

When I came back to class the next day all of the power strips had
been screwed down to the work surfaces and 2 other guys had quit
electronics school after witnessing my near demise. They quit ET
school and I went on to work on devices that had power supplies in
the range of 25KVDC.

Luckily (?) I still have the scars on my hand to remind me of how
stupid I was. I've been a lot more careful since then.


I remember having an arc jump from the anode cap of the horizontal
output tube in a TV set to my hand when working on a set in front of a
customer at the shop. I excused myself to go to the back room where I
yelled @#*&%*%$#@&*%^#!!!!! I then came back into the shop and resumed
work on the set in front of the customer who had an odd yet concerned
look on her face. I've been shocked, zapped and burned more times than I
can count but I never, ever let my guard down around high voltage high
current power coming into a building. When I worked as an electrician,
my superintendent got a tingle when using an old wooden hot stick while
we were connecting some 4,160 volt pad mounted transformers for the
underground electrical system we were building. If it had been 13.8kv I
doubt he would have gotten just a tingle. All my ladders and push poles
are fiberglass because one never knows what you can run into around
power systems. I learned long ago to work on everything as though it was
energized because it a good habit to get into. One thing I really hate
is when I've been working in hot weather and because I sweat like a
thunderstorm, I wind up soaking wet with all my clothing soaked and the
sweat dripping on the floor. You can tell where I've been by the wet
areas on the floor. In this condition, I've had my sweat soaked shirt
tail touch a ground while I was working on a panel. Salt water and sweat
conduct electricity very, very well. o_O

TDD

On Wed, 25 Sep 2013 13:52:30 +0000 (UTC), Tegger
wrote:

" wrote in
:

On Wednesday, September 25, 2013 8:42:37 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon
wrote:
I surrender. I'm just no good at flaymin.



Heh, give him a break. At least he admitted he got
it wrong, which is something rare here. But he's kind of
gotten it wrong a second time. He seems to be ignoring skin
effect. With DC, the current density is uniform in a wire.
As the frequency increases, the current distribution moves
toward the surface. At very high frequencies, most of it is traveling
at or near the surface. The wire could be mostly hollow and it would
carry almost the same current.



Ah, I see. Would this be true regardless of voltage or amperage?
I believe so. Skin effect is most pronounced at very high
frequencies, and virtually non-existent at low frequencies and DC. A
hollow conductor has 2 surfaces - not sure if the inner surface comes
into play or not.

On Wed, 25 Sep 2013 16:19:51 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 9/25/2013 3:25 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 9/25/2013 9:09 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in
message ...
I only put the ammeter across a load that won't damage the
meter, I did mention that first. The shunt in my meter is good
for 20 amps and I certainly wouldn't put it across a circuit
that would exceed the safety limits of the meter. That's why I
only do it for low current loads. The little circuit breakers
with test leads help narrow down a problem with an overload
while saving fuses at the same time. I may be assuming that
others know enough not to do anything unsafe but I don't want
to appear patronizing. I'm only giving general information from
my own experience and I hope no one believes the same
procedures work with dangerous high voltages and currents. ^_^

Did you ever try the light bulb instead of a fuse ?

Depending on the normal load, you can use a 100 watt light bulb
(wattage to vary depending on normal current usage) in place of
the fuse. When the light bulb glows much dimmer or not at all
then you have found the problem that usually blows the fuse.


Putting the amp meter across the fuse will not depend on the
load, but the actual ammount of current that can be sourced. Say
the normal load is only 10 amps, your meter is good for 20 amps,
but the source is good for 100 amps. If you have an almost short
at the load, close to 100 amps is going to try and pass through
your 20 amp meter which is now toast , or hopefully the internal
meter fuse blows.

You should only put the amp meter in line when you get the fuse
to stop blowing. Then it should be safe to see how much current
is actually being used.



I had a 100w, 150w and 200w bulbs that I soldered test leads with
alligator clips to when I was working as a bench tech back when
appliances and TV sets used a lot more power. In the past 20
years, most of the service work I've done has been mobile and not a
good place to have glass bulbs bouncing around in a vehicle. I'm
sorry but I keep assuming others would do what I do without
thinking. The light bulb in series with a Simpson 260 was SOP when
working on two way radios to check the DC current draw. A shunt was
needed for AC current tests since those meters would only test up
to 10 amps DC. A separate AC ammeter worked for bench testing. I
had variable power supplies that indicated voltage and current
being drawn by equipment when bench testing plus those power
supplies had adjustable current limits that would drop voltage to
zero when the limit was reached. The small resettable circuit
breakers I used were put in series with the DMM when testing
current draw. I repeat, never use a DMM to check current in line if
you know it will exceed the safety limits of the meter. Test leads
can melt or have the tips burned off. It's not a problem to put a
DMM across a fuse when testing a radio being powered by a 12vdc
power supply which is rated at 3 amps and has a built in circuit
breaker like the small power supplies sold by Radio Shack for many
years. It's been a while since I've been in a Radio Shack store to
buy discrete components or batteries. If I'm working on a small AC
appliance that would draw 5 amps/600 watts,(look at the label). The
small circuit breaker in series with with a DMM having a 10 amp
range is completely safe unless you are dumb enough (like me) to
touch the exposed test clips and get a shock. Even if the small
circuit breaker is not used and the appliance has a dead short, the
20 amp breaker supplying power to the outlet you are plugged into
will trip. The small circuit breakers I once put together on my own
are now sold at supply houses with the pigtails and test clip
already on them. When repairing electrical or electronic gear, the
best test equipment are your eyes, ears and nose. ^_^

TDD

"...unless you are dumb enough (like me) to touch the exposed
test clips and get a shock."

...or the banana plug on the end of a jumper cable.

In my case it was the second week of USCG Electronics School
training. On the worktable in front of us, we each had a 400 VDC
power supply training device which was plugged into a power strip.

There was a ~4" jumper cable, with a banana plug on each end, that
connected two sections of the power supply. The jumper could be
pulled out to break the device down into smaller sections for
troubleshooting training. Basically you were removing the load. The
normal procedure was to shut the power supply down, pull the jumper
and then power it back on.

Heck, I don't need to go through all that. I'll just hooked my finger
into the loop and pull the cable out. So, with my forearm resting on
the chassis, I hooked my finger into the jumper and pulled. Too bad
one banana plug (on the output side) was a lot looser then the other
one. With input side still plugged in, the loose end flipped up and
laid against my thumb. With my arm laying on the chassis (read:
ground) I became the new load for the 400 VDC.

My arm spasmed and I couldn't pull it away from the chassis.
Instinctively, I reached out my other hand to pushed the chassis
away. All that accomplished was to cause the current to flow from one
hand to the other through my upper body. I was holding a 30 lb power
supply up off the table as if it was weightless, yelling "Turn if
off! Turn it off!" as my whole upper body spasmed.

The guy at the table in front of me turned around and grabbed the
power cord in an attempt to unplug the device. Unfortunately, the
power strip was not secured to the table so it just came up with the
cord. The guy next to me reached over and slapped the power strip
back onto the table which unplugged the device.

I dropped (actually, threw) the power supply onto the floor and they
drove me over to the infirmary for an EKG. Other than the burns on my
hand, I was apparently OK.

When I came back to class the next day all of the power strips had
been screwed down to the work surfaces and 2 other guys had quit
electronics school after witnessing my near demise. They quit ET
school and I went on to work on devices that had power supplies in
the range of 25KVDC.

Luckily (?) I still have the scars on my hand to remind me of how
stupid I was. I've been a lot more careful since then.


I remember having an arc jump from the anode cap of the horizontal
output tube in a TV set to my hand when working on a set in front of a
customer at the shop. I excused myself to go to the back room where I
yelled @#*&%*%$#@&*%^#!!!!! I then came back into the shop and resumed
work on the set in front of the customer who had an odd yet concerned
look on her face. I've been shocked, zapped and burned more times than I
can count but I never, ever let my guard down around high voltage high
current power coming into a building. When I worked as an electrician,
my superintendent got a tingle when using an old wooden hot stick while
we were connecting some 4,160 volt pad mounted transformers for the
underground electrical system we were building. If it had been 13.8kv I
doubt he would have gotten just a tingle. All my ladders and push poles
are fiberglass because one never knows what you can run into around
power systems. I learned long ago to work on everything as though it was
energized because it a good habit to get into. One thing I really hate
is when I've been working in hot weather and because I sweat like a
thunderstorm, I wind up soaking wet with all my clothing soaked and the
sweat dripping on the floor. You can tell where I've been by the wet
areas on the floor. In this condition, I've had my sweat soaked shirt
tail touch a ground while I was working on a panel. Salt water and sweat
conduct electricity very, very well. o_O

TDD
As a kid I had salvaged a power supply out of an ancient TV that
didn't use a flyback system - the main power transformer had taps
from, IIRC, 3.5 volts to 25000 volts. The high voltage was at the
opposite end from the low voltage. I needed the low voltage to test a
small motor I was working on, but I grabbed the wires on the wrong
end. I must mention the basement ceiling was something like 5 1/2 ft
to the floor decking, about 42 inches to the bottom of the joists. I
was just under six feet tall at the time. I straightened up fery
quickly and my rock-hard skull caught the end of a nail that held the
1/4" unserlay to the sub-floor, and I popped the head of that nail
through the linoleum flooring in the living room above.

On Wed, 25 Sep 2013 13:52:30 +0000 (UTC), Tegger
wrote:

" wrote in
:

On Wednesday, September 25, 2013 8:42:37 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon
wrote:
I surrender. I'm just no good at flaymin.



Heh, give him a break. At least he admitted he got
it wrong, which is something rare here. But he's kind of
gotten it wrong a second time. He seems to be ignoring skin
effect. With DC, the current density is uniform in a wire.
As the frequency increases, the current distribution moves
toward the surface. At very high frequencies, most of it is traveling
at or near the surface. The wire could be mostly hollow and it would
carry almost the same current.



Ah, I see. Would this be true regardless of voltage or amperage?

For all reasonable values of voltage and current, yes. At the
extremes strange things tend to crop up.

The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 9/22/2013 5:17 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 9/22/2013 10:17 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 9/21/2013 10:53 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 21 Sep 2013 21:50:29 -0500, Dean Hoffman
" wrote:

On 9/21/13 7:22 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Specially LittleFuse KLK-15 as in http://tinyurl.com/kfs8gje

This thing is almost certainly blown (ohmmeter shows same reading with
or without fuse in circuit)... I'm looking at and looking at it, but
can't see any visible indicator.

There is none, right?

The indicator fuses I've seen have little windows on them.
Example he http://tinyurl.com/q3q65g6

They also make an indicating fuse with a metal plunger that pops out
when it blows. These are usually used in a holder with a sense rail.
The plunger pops out, hits the rail and indicates a blown fuse.
(light, beeper or whatever)


I had fuses like in some surplus gear that had a panel mount fuse holder
equipped with a clear cap having a bubble in it that the plunger popped
up into when the fuse blew. The little tips of the plungers on some of
the fuses were painted red so they would show up more easily in the
bubble but it was easy to tell if the unpainted tips were in the bubble
window of the cap too. I suppose that little fuse would work in a fuse
holder that had an electrical contact to turn on an indicator light. I
had some fuses under the dash in my van that had a tiny LED which would
light if the fuse blew. ^_^

TDD

Have you ever seen a motorized circuit breaker controlled by a 3-strike
relay? We had them in the LORAN-C transmitters I used to work on. These
transmitters were subject to the random arc which would trip the high
voltage breaker in the power supply.

Picture a large circuit breaker above a motor with a shaft the rose out of
the top. When the motor was energized, the shaft pushed the breaker handle
up, energizing the high voltage Power Supply. (25K VDC max, steady state at
15K) the motor would then spin back down retracting the shaft.

Controlling the motor circuit was a mechanized relay with a timer and a cam
that opened and closed the relay contacts. If the transmitter arced and
tripped the breaker, the cam would rotate 1 position, start a 30 second
timer and power up the motor which would close the circuit breaker. If 30
seconds went by with no more arcs, the relay cam would rotate back to its
"normal" position and wait patiently for the next arc. If another arc
occurred within those 30 seconds, the cam would rotate one more position,
power up the motor, close the breaker and once again wait for another arc.
If, within the original 30 seconds a 3rd arc occurred, the cam would rotate
one more position and shut down the power supply.

At that point, if everything else was working properly, other circuitry
would automatically power up the standby transmitter and switch the antenna
coupler to the standby unit, putting us back on air in under a minute.


Were you in The Coast Guard? Those transmitters put out some incredible
power but I seem to recall them being shut down only to wind up being
considered as a backup because of the possibility of GPS being jammed or
knocked out by solar flares. Heck, the government will probably wind up
with some sort of system like it if GPS were to turn out to be somehow
vulnerable. As tall as the towers were for LORAN-C, was lighting a big
cause of the systems going down and switching to backup transmitters? o_O

TDD

I spent a year at USCG LorSta Sylt Germany. Sylt is a resort island in the
North Sea with casinos, all variety of night life and nude beaches. I paid
for it with a year at USCG LorSta Port Clarence Alaska. Night life
consisted of double deck Pinochle, hours upon hours of Cribbage and poker
with the Eskimos when Port Clarence Bay froze over so they could cross it
by snow mobile. I spent my last year as an instructor at the Loran training
center on Governor's Island, NY. My home town was NYC, so they basically
sent me home for my last year.

If I recall correctly, Loran stations across the globe began being shutdown
in the early 90s. Many stations went solid state and unmanned years before
that. All remaining Loran C service was terminated in 2010. I don't know
which, if any, Loran chains are still available as backup for GPS. I do
know that some stations were dismantled and towers taken down.

Check out this video of the tower at Port Clarence.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=u92YYdy6Lak

Lightening hit our tower in Germany, basically melting the antenna coupler
transformer. We were off air for a few weeks while we waited for parts to
rebuild the antenna coupler and final amplifier stage of the transmitter
that was on-air at the time. I don't remember how it worked, but there was
some kind of system that handled most strikes without knocking us off the
air. This one was just too big.

Interesting fact about the construction of Loran stations: Even though the
guy wire system was designed to spin the tower basically straight down
should there be a tower failure, each Loran station was built so that the
closet building to the tower, other than the transmitter building of
course, was no closer to the base of the tower than the tower was high. In
the next-to-impossible case that the tower fell "sideways" it would miss
the buildings.

Since the weather in Port Clarence was an issue, we had a 1/4€� mile
enclosed "hallway" from the main station to the transmitter building. No
heat and very little light, but at least we were out of the weather as we
walked (or biked) to the transmitter building. The inside walls were coated
with ice and there were snowdrifts inside the hallway where the snow blew
through the seams in the walls.


Darn, I lost the pictures I took when I worked at The Kwajalein Missile
Range back in the 1980's during the SDI "Star Wars" program. There were
some cool old and new structures out there for radio and radar use. I do
believe the big satellite dish for the down link had a cryogenically
cooled receiver or components to give it maximum sensitivity. There were
some abandoned old sites that still had the antennas and there was one
big concrete building that was used for the original phased array radar
development for the early warning and ships phases array radars.
I really wish I hadn't lost those pictures years ago. o_O

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwajalein_Atoll

TDD

In the 70's working at NASA tracking station, we used loran to track cesium
clock drift. There was a special receiver for that. Loran C and D. The only
other way to measure cesium clock, was for them to bring in a portable
reference.

We also had cooled parametric preamplifier for the best noise performance.
The hydrogen maser was for deep space tracking, and there was another
simple transistor amplifier backup. Most amplifiers can be cooled to get
better noise ratio.

Greg

On 9/25/2013 7:02 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 25 Sep 2013 13:52:30 +0000 (UTC), Tegger
wrote:

" wrote in
:

On Wednesday, September 25, 2013 8:42:37 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon
wrote:
I surrender. I'm just no good at flaymin.



Heh, give him a break. At least he admitted he got
it wrong, which is something rare here. But he's kind of
gotten it wrong a second time. He seems to be ignoring skin
effect. With DC, the current density is uniform in a wire.
As the frequency increases, the current distribution moves
toward the surface. At very high frequencies, most of it is traveling
at or near the surface. The wire could be mostly hollow and it would
carry almost the same current.



Ah, I see. Would this be true regardless of voltage or amperage?

For all reasonable values of voltage and current, yes. At the
extremes strange things tend to crop up.


And as you get closer to Absolute Zero. ^_^

TDD

On 9/25/2013 6:58 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 25 Sep 2013 16:19:51 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 9/25/2013 3:25 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 9/25/2013 9:09 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in
message ...
I only put the ammeter across a load that won't damage the
meter, I did mention that first. The shunt in my meter is good
for 20 amps and I certainly wouldn't put it across a circuit
that would exceed the safety limits of the meter. That's why I
only do it for low current loads. The little circuit breakers
with test leads help narrow down a problem with an overload
while saving fuses at the same time. I may be assuming that
others know enough not to do anything unsafe but I don't want
to appear patronizing. I'm only giving general information from
my own experience and I hope no one believes the same
procedures work with dangerous high voltages and currents. ^_^

Did you ever try the light bulb instead of a fuse ?

Depending on the normal load, you can use a 100 watt light bulb
(wattage to vary depending on normal current usage) in place of
the fuse. When the light bulb glows much dimmer or not at all
then you have found the problem that usually blows the fuse.


Putting the amp meter across the fuse will not depend on the
load, but the actual ammount of current that can be sourced. Say
the normal load is only 10 amps, your meter is good for 20 amps,
but the source is good for 100 amps. If you have an almost short
at the load, close to 100 amps is going to try and pass through
your 20 amp meter which is now toast , or hopefully the internal
meter fuse blows.

You should only put the amp meter in line when you get the fuse
to stop blowing. Then it should be safe to see how much current
is actually being used.



I had a 100w, 150w and 200w bulbs that I soldered test leads with
alligator clips to when I was working as a bench tech back when
appliances and TV sets used a lot more power. In the past 20
years, most of the service work I've done has been mobile and not a
good place to have glass bulbs bouncing around in a vehicle. I'm
sorry but I keep assuming others would do what I do without
thinking. The light bulb in series with a Simpson 260 was SOP when
working on two way radios to check the DC current draw. A shunt was
needed for AC current tests since those meters would only test up
to 10 amps DC. A separate AC ammeter worked for bench testing. I
had variable power supplies that indicated voltage and current
being drawn by equipment when bench testing plus those power
supplies had adjustable current limits that would drop voltage to
zero when the limit was reached. The small resettable circuit
breakers I used were put in series with the DMM when testing
current draw. I repeat, never use a DMM to check current in line if
you know it will exceed the safety limits of the meter. Test leads
can melt or have the tips burned off. It's not a problem to put a
DMM across a fuse when testing a radio being powered by a 12vdc
power supply which is rated at 3 amps and has a built in circuit
breaker like the small power supplies sold by Radio Shack for many
years. It's been a while since I've been in a Radio Shack store to
buy discrete components or batteries. If I'm working on a small AC
appliance that would draw 5 amps/600 watts,(look at the label). The
small circuit breaker in series with with a DMM having a 10 amp
range is completely safe unless you are dumb enough (like me) to
touch the exposed test clips and get a shock. Even if the small
circuit breaker is not used and the appliance has a dead short, the
20 amp breaker supplying power to the outlet you are plugged into
will trip. The small circuit breakers I once put together on my own
are now sold at supply houses with the pigtails and test clip
already on them. When repairing electrical or electronic gear, the
best test equipment are your eyes, ears and nose. ^_^

TDD

"...unless you are dumb enough (like me) to touch the exposed
test clips and get a shock."

...or the banana plug on the end of a jumper cable.

In my case it was the second week of USCG Electronics School
training. On the worktable in front of us, we each had a 400 VDC
power supply training device which was plugged into a power strip.

There was a ~4" jumper cable, with a banana plug on each end, that
connected two sections of the power supply. The jumper could be
pulled out to break the device down into smaller sections for
troubleshooting training. Basically you were removing the load. The
normal procedure was to shut the power supply down, pull the jumper
and then power it back on.

Heck, I don't need to go through all that. I'll just hooked my finger
into the loop and pull the cable out. So, with my forearm resting on
the chassis, I hooked my finger into the jumper and pulled. Too bad
one banana plug (on the output side) was a lot looser then the other
one. With input side still plugged in, the loose end flipped up and
laid against my thumb. With my arm laying on the chassis (read:
ground) I became the new load for the 400 VDC.

My arm spasmed and I couldn't pull it away from the chassis.
Instinctively, I reached out my other hand to pushed the chassis
away. All that accomplished was to cause the current to flow from one
hand to the other through my upper body. I was holding a 30 lb power
supply up off the table as if it was weightless, yelling "Turn if
off! Turn it off!" as my whole upper body spasmed.

The guy at the table in front of me turned around and grabbed the
power cord in an attempt to unplug the device. Unfortunately, the
power strip was not secured to the table so it just came up with the
cord. The guy next to me reached over and slapped the power strip
back onto the table which unplugged the device.

I dropped (actually, threw) the power supply onto the floor and they
drove me over to the infirmary for an EKG. Other than the burns on my
hand, I was apparently OK.

When I came back to class the next day all of the power strips had
been screwed down to the work surfaces and 2 other guys had quit
electronics school after witnessing my near demise. They quit ET
school and I went on to work on devices that had power supplies in
the range of 25KVDC.

Luckily (?) I still have the scars on my hand to remind me of how
stupid I was. I've been a lot more careful since then.


I remember having an arc jump from the anode cap of the horizontal
output tube in a TV set to my hand when working on a set in front of a
customer at the shop. I excused myself to go to the back room where I
yelled @#*&%*%$#@&*%^#!!!!! I then came back into the shop and resumed
work on the set in front of the customer who had an odd yet concerned
look on her face. I've been shocked, zapped and burned more times than I
can count but I never, ever let my guard down around high voltage high
current power coming into a building. When I worked as an electrician,
my superintendent got a tingle when using an old wooden hot stick while
we were connecting some 4,160 volt pad mounted transformers for the
underground electrical system we were building. If it had been 13.8kv I
doubt he would have gotten just a tingle. All my ladders and push poles
are fiberglass because one never knows what you can run into around
power systems. I learned long ago to work on everything as though it was
energized because it a good habit to get into. One thing I really hate
is when I've been working in hot weather and because I sweat like a
thunderstorm, I wind up soaking wet with all my clothing soaked and the
sweat dripping on the floor. You can tell where I've been by the wet
areas on the floor. In this condition, I've had my sweat soaked shirt
tail touch a ground while I was working on a panel. Salt water and sweat
conduct electricity very, very well. o_O

TDD
As a kid I had salvaged a power supply out of an ancient TV that
didn't use a flyback system - the main power transformer had taps
from, IIRC, 3.5 volts to 25000 volts. The high voltage was at the
opposite end from the low voltage. I needed the low voltage to test a
small motor I was working on, but I grabbed the wires on the wrong
end. I must mention the basement ceiling was something like 5 1/2 ft
to the floor decking, about 42 inches to the bottom of the joists. I
was just under six feet tall at the time. I straightened up fery
quickly and my rock-hard skull caught the end of a nail that held the
1/4" unserlay to the sub-floor, and I popped the head of that nail
through the linoleum flooring in the living room above.


OUCH!! How deep was the hole in your skull or have you always had a hard
head? ^_^

TDD

On 9/25/2013 7:28 PM, gregz wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 9/22/2013 5:17 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 9/22/2013 10:17 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 9/21/2013 10:53 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 21 Sep 2013 21:50:29 -0500, Dean Hoffman
" wrote:

On 9/21/13 7:22 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Specially LittleFuse KLK-15 as in http://tinyurl.com/kfs8gje

This thing is almost certainly blown (ohmmeter shows same reading with
or without fuse in circuit)... I'm looking at and looking at it, but
can't see any visible indicator.

There is none, right?

The indicator fuses I've seen have little windows on them.
Example he http://tinyurl.com/q3q65g6

They also make an indicating fuse with a metal plunger that pops out
when it blows. These are usually used in a holder with a sense rail.
The plunger pops out, hits the rail and indicates a blown fuse.
(light, beeper or whatever)


I had fuses like in some surplus gear that had a panel mount fuse holder
equipped with a clear cap having a bubble in it that the plunger popped
up into when the fuse blew. The little tips of the plungers on some of
the fuses were painted red so they would show up more easily in the
bubble but it was easy to tell if the unpainted tips were in the bubble
window of the cap too. I suppose that little fuse would work in a fuse
holder that had an electrical contact to turn on an indicator light. I
had some fuses under the dash in my van that had a tiny LED which would
light if the fuse blew. ^_^

TDD

Have you ever seen a motorized circuit breaker controlled by a 3-strike
relay? We had them in the LORAN-C transmitters I used to work on. These
transmitters were subject to the random arc which would trip the high
voltage breaker in the power supply.

Picture a large circuit breaker above a motor with a shaft the rose out of
the top. When the motor was energized, the shaft pushed the breaker handle
up, energizing the high voltage Power Supply. (25K VDC max, steady state at
15K) the motor would then spin back down retracting the shaft.

Controlling the motor circuit was a mechanized relay with a timer and a cam
that opened and closed the relay contacts. If the transmitter arced and
tripped the breaker, the cam would rotate 1 position, start a 30 second
timer and power up the motor which would close the circuit breaker. If 30
seconds went by with no more arcs, the relay cam would rotate back to its
"normal" position and wait patiently for the next arc. If another arc
occurred within those 30 seconds, the cam would rotate one more position,
power up the motor, close the breaker and once again wait for another arc.
If, within the original 30 seconds a 3rd arc occurred, the cam would rotate
one more position and shut down the power supply.

At that point, if everything else was working properly, other circuitry
would automatically power up the standby transmitter and switch the antenna
coupler to the standby unit, putting us back on air in under a minute.


Were you in The Coast Guard? Those transmitters put out some incredible
power but I seem to recall them being shut down only to wind up being
considered as a backup because of the possibility of GPS being jammed or
knocked out by solar flares. Heck, the government will probably wind up
with some sort of system like it if GPS were to turn out to be somehow
vulnerable. As tall as the towers were for LORAN-C, was lighting a big
cause of the systems going down and switching to backup transmitters? o_O

TDD

I spent a year at USCG LorSta Sylt Germany. Sylt is a resort island in the
North Sea with casinos, all variety of night life and nude beaches. I paid
for it with a year at USCG LorSta Port Clarence Alaska. Night life
consisted of double deck Pinochle, hours upon hours of Cribbage and poker
with the Eskimos when Port Clarence Bay froze over so they could cross it
by snow mobile. I spent my last year as an instructor at the Loran training
center on Governor's Island, NY. My home town was NYC, so they basically
sent me home for my last year.

If I recall correctly, Loran stations across the globe began being shutdown
in the early 90s. Many stations went solid state and unmanned years before
that. All remaining Loran C service was terminated in 2010. I don't know
which, if any, Loran chains are still available as backup for GPS. I do
know that some stations were dismantled and towers taken down.

Check out this video of the tower at Port Clarence.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=u92YYdy6Lak

Lightening hit our tower in Germany, basically melting the antenna coupler
transformer. We were off air for a few weeks while we waited for parts to
rebuild the antenna coupler and final amplifier stage of the transmitter
that was on-air at the time. I don't remember how it worked, but there was
some kind of system that handled most strikes without knocking us off the
air. This one was just too big.

Interesting fact about the construction of Loran stations: Even though the
guy wire system was designed to spin the tower basically straight down
should there be a tower failure, each Loran station was built so that the
closet building to the tower, other than the transmitter building of
course, was no closer to the base of the tower than the tower was high. In
the next-to-impossible case that the tower fell "sideways" it would miss
the buildings.

Since the weather in Port Clarence was an issue, we had a 1/4€� mile
enclosed "hallway" from the main station to the transmitter building. No
heat and very little light, but at least we were out of the weather as we
walked (or biked) to the transmitter building. The inside walls were coated
with ice and there were snowdrifts inside the hallway where the snow blew
through the seams in the walls.


Darn, I lost the pictures I took when I worked at The Kwajalein Missile
Range back in the 1980's during the SDI "Star Wars" program. There were
some cool old and new structures out there for radio and radar use. I do
believe the big satellite dish for the down link had a cryogenically
cooled receiver or components to give it maximum sensitivity. There were
some abandoned old sites that still had the antennas and there was one
big concrete building that was used for the original phased array radar
development for the early warning and ships phases array radars.
I really wish I hadn't lost those pictures years ago. o_O

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwajalein_Atoll

TDD

In the 70's working at NASA tracking station, we used loran to track cesium
clock drift. There was a special receiver for that. Loran C and D. The only
other way to measure cesium clock, was for them to bring in a portable
reference.

We also had cooled parametric preamplifier for the best noise performance.
The hydrogen maser was for deep space tracking, and there was another
simple transistor amplifier backup. Most amplifiers can be cooled to get
better noise ratio.

Greg


There was an atomic clock in one room of the mission control center I
was involved in building, in another room was a liquid cooled Cray X-MP
super computer. That was 1988, I read somewhere a few years back that
the university had a Cray X-MP they were trying to give away. ^_^

TDD

gregz wrote:

....snip...


In the 70's working at NASA tracking station, we used loran to track cesium
clock drift. There was a special receiver for that. Loran C and D. The only
other way to measure cesium clock, was for them to bring in a portable
reference.

Ahh...the circle of life.

The timing equipment that created the Loran signal was controlled by a
cesium beam oscillator.

We Loran techs sent out a really, really well timed signal so you could use
it to track drift on the same type of clock that was used to create the
signal. Cool!

Based on this timeline, Loran D went out of service in the late 60's. Are
you sure it was Loran D that you used in the 70s? Loran C was used before
and after that timeline. I never dealt with Loran D, only A and C.

http://www.jproc.ca/hyperbolic/timeline.html


....snip...

Greg

On Wed, 25 Sep 2013 20:31:11 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 9/25/2013 6:58 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 25 Sep 2013 16:19:51 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 9/25/2013 3:25 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 9/25/2013 9:09 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in
message ...
I only put the ammeter across a load that won't damage the
meter, I did mention that first. The shunt in my meter is good
for 20 amps and I certainly wouldn't put it across a circuit
that would exceed the safety limits of the meter. That's why I
only do it for low current loads. The little circuit breakers
with test leads help narrow down a problem with an overload
while saving fuses at the same time. I may be assuming that
others know enough not to do anything unsafe but I don't want
to appear patronizing. I'm only giving general information from
my own experience and I hope no one believes the same
procedures work with dangerous high voltages and currents. ^_^

Did you ever try the light bulb instead of a fuse ?

Depending on the normal load, you can use a 100 watt light bulb
(wattage to vary depending on normal current usage) in place of
the fuse. When the light bulb glows much dimmer or not at all
then you have found the problem that usually blows the fuse.


Putting the amp meter across the fuse will not depend on the
load, but the actual ammount of current that can be sourced. Say
the normal load is only 10 amps, your meter is good for 20 amps,
but the source is good for 100 amps. If you have an almost short
at the load, close to 100 amps is going to try and pass through
your 20 amp meter which is now toast , or hopefully the internal
meter fuse blows.

You should only put the amp meter in line when you get the fuse
to stop blowing. Then it should be safe to see how much current
is actually being used.



I had a 100w, 150w and 200w bulbs that I soldered test leads with
alligator clips to when I was working as a bench tech back when
appliances and TV sets used a lot more power. In the past 20
years, most of the service work I've done has been mobile and not a
good place to have glass bulbs bouncing around in a vehicle. I'm
sorry but I keep assuming others would do what I do without
thinking. The light bulb in series with a Simpson 260 was SOP when
working on two way radios to check the DC current draw. A shunt was
needed for AC current tests since those meters would only test up
to 10 amps DC. A separate AC ammeter worked for bench testing. I
had variable power supplies that indicated voltage and current
being drawn by equipment when bench testing plus those power
supplies had adjustable current limits that would drop voltage to
zero when the limit was reached. The small resettable circuit
breakers I used were put in series with the DMM when testing
current draw. I repeat, never use a DMM to check current in line if
you know it will exceed the safety limits of the meter. Test leads
can melt or have the tips burned off. It's not a problem to put a
DMM across a fuse when testing a radio being powered by a 12vdc
power supply which is rated at 3 amps and has a built in circuit
breaker like the small power supplies sold by Radio Shack for many
years. It's been a while since I've been in a Radio Shack store to
buy discrete components or batteries. If I'm working on a small AC
appliance that would draw 5 amps/600 watts,(look at the label). The
small circuit breaker in series with with a DMM having a 10 amp
range is completely safe unless you are dumb enough (like me) to
touch the exposed test clips and get a shock. Even if the small
circuit breaker is not used and the appliance has a dead short, the
20 amp breaker supplying power to the outlet you are plugged into
will trip. The small circuit breakers I once put together on my own
are now sold at supply houses with the pigtails and test clip
already on them. When repairing electrical or electronic gear, the
best test equipment are your eyes, ears and nose. ^_^

TDD

"...unless you are dumb enough (like me) to touch the exposed
test clips and get a shock."

...or the banana plug on the end of a jumper cable.

In my case it was the second week of USCG Electronics School
training. On the worktable in front of us, we each had a 400 VDC
power supply training device which was plugged into a power strip.

There was a ~4" jumper cable, with a banana plug on each end, that
connected two sections of the power supply. The jumper could be
pulled out to break the device down into smaller sections for
troubleshooting training. Basically you were removing the load. The
normal procedure was to shut the power supply down, pull the jumper
and then power it back on.

Heck, I don't need to go through all that. I'll just hooked my finger
into the loop and pull the cable out. So, with my forearm resting on
the chassis, I hooked my finger into the jumper and pulled. Too bad
one banana plug (on the output side) was a lot looser then the other
one. With input side still plugged in, the loose end flipped up and
laid against my thumb. With my arm laying on the chassis (read:
ground) I became the new load for the 400 VDC.

My arm spasmed and I couldn't pull it away from the chassis.
Instinctively, I reached out my other hand to pushed the chassis
away. All that accomplished was to cause the current to flow from one
hand to the other through my upper body. I was holding a 30 lb power
supply up off the table as if it was weightless, yelling "Turn if
off! Turn it off!" as my whole upper body spasmed.

The guy at the table in front of me turned around and grabbed the
power cord in an attempt to unplug the device. Unfortunately, the
power strip was not secured to the table so it just came up with the
cord. The guy next to me reached over and slapped the power strip
back onto the table which unplugged the device.

I dropped (actually, threw) the power supply onto the floor and they
drove me over to the infirmary for an EKG. Other than the burns on my
hand, I was apparently OK.

When I came back to class the next day all of the power strips had
been screwed down to the work surfaces and 2 other guys had quit
electronics school after witnessing my near demise. They quit ET
school and I went on to work on devices that had power supplies in
the range of 25KVDC.

Luckily (?) I still have the scars on my hand to remind me of how
stupid I was. I've been a lot more careful since then.


I remember having an arc jump from the anode cap of the horizontal
output tube in a TV set to my hand when working on a set in front of a
customer at the shop. I excused myself to go to the back room where I
yelled @#*&%*%$#@&*%^#!!!!! I then came back into the shop and resumed
work on the set in front of the customer who had an odd yet concerned
look on her face. I've been shocked, zapped and burned more times than I
can count but I never, ever let my guard down around high voltage high
current power coming into a building. When I worked as an electrician,
my superintendent got a tingle when using an old wooden hot stick while
we were connecting some 4,160 volt pad mounted transformers for the
underground electrical system we were building. If it had been 13.8kv I
doubt he would have gotten just a tingle. All my ladders and push poles
are fiberglass because one never knows what you can run into around
power systems. I learned long ago to work on everything as though it was
energized because it a good habit to get into. One thing I really hate
is when I've been working in hot weather and because I sweat like a
thunderstorm, I wind up soaking wet with all my clothing soaked and the
sweat dripping on the floor. You can tell where I've been by the wet
areas on the floor. In this condition, I've had my sweat soaked shirt
tail touch a ground while I was working on a panel. Salt water and sweat
conduct electricity very, very well. o_O

TDD
As a kid I had salvaged a power supply out of an ancient TV that
didn't use a flyback system - the main power transformer had taps
from, IIRC, 3.5 volts to 25000 volts. The high voltage was at the
opposite end from the low voltage. I needed the low voltage to test a
small motor I was working on, but I grabbed the wires on the wrong
end. I must mention the basement ceiling was something like 5 1/2 ft
to the floor decking, about 42 inches to the bottom of the joists. I
was just under six feet tall at the time. I straightened up fery
quickly and my rock-hard skull caught the end of a nail that held the
1/4" unserlay to the sub-floor, and I popped the head of that nail
through the linoleum flooring in the living room above.


OUCH!! How deep was the hole in your skull or have you always had a hard
head? ^_^

TDD
It bled a bit, but I guess I've always been a bit hard headed.
If anyone told be I had rocks in my head, I'd just take it for
granite.

DerbyDad03 wrote:
gregz wrote:

...snip...


In the 70's working at NASA tracking station, we used loran to track cesium
clock drift. There was a special receiver for that. Loran C and D. The only
other way to measure cesium clock, was for them to bring in a portable
reference.

Ahh...the circle of life.

The timing equipment that created the Loran signal was controlled by a
cesium beam oscillator.

We Loran techs sent out a really, really well timed signal so you could use
it to track drift on the same type of clock that was used to create the
signal. Cool!

Based on this timeline, Loran D went out of service in the late 60's. Are
you sure it was Loran D that you used in the 70s? Loran C was used before
and after that timeline. I never dealt with Loran D, only A and C.

http://www.jproc.ca/hyperbolic/timeline.html


...snip...

Greg

I'm pretty sure D, and I think it was an experimental station, and pretty
close by. The loran still drifts around. Only long term average was used.

I read D was a short range high accuracy, and portable.

Greg

Sounds miserable. I'd not want to hit a nail
with my head, in any situation.

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 9/25/2013 11:42 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 25 Sep 2013 20:31:11 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 9/25/2013 6:58 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 25 Sep 2013 16:19:51 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

=====================================
20 Items to Hoard Check list
When a crisis is brewing, making a comprehensive list of supplies is no
easy task… neither is purchasing them.
As panic spreads, super market shelves will be stripped bare in a matter
of hours. Contrary to popular belief, super markets don’t have tons of
excess inventory. What you see on the shelves is what they’ve got in
most cases.
We see it almost every time a major hurricane targets a populated area.
Desperate shoppers buy up every last can of beans, flashlight, and
bottled water in a 50-mile radius.
If you’re smart, you won’t be standing in line at the grocery store when
the SHTF. You’ll already have that taken care of…
Because you’ve read through this checklist to make sure you have
everything your family needs to survive a crisis. Here are our Top 20
Items to Hoard:
1. Rice – Dried rice has an incredibly long shelf life, making it ideal
for storage. In nutritional terms, rice is rich in starch and
carbohydrates. It’s also a good source of Vitamin B, iron, and protein.
2. Beans, Lentils, Black-eyed peas – Legumes are a great source of
protein, iron, and dietary fiber. Like rice, which they’re traditionally
served with, dried beans have an exceptionally long shelf life.
3. Candles – You’ll probably never read a disaster preparedness list
that doesn’t include candles, and for good reason. A good stock of
slow-burning emergency candles is a survival essential, as well as
something to light them with.
4. Cigarette Lighters – I recommend stashing a combo pack of at least 6
lighters in your stockpile. In a power outage, these guys can become
very, very important. The can also be very easy to misplace.
5. Pasta – Pasta stores well, has a long shelf life, and it’s loaded
with carbohydrates. It’s also easy to prepare. Not to mention, pasta
pairs well with lots of other items on this list.
6. Peanut Butter – Hoarded by everyone from college students to doomsday
survivalists, and for many of the same reasons, peanut butter is a
tasty, shelf stable source of protein that pairs with lots of other items.
7. Can Opener/Multi-Tool – It’s a good idea to carry a survival knife,
but it’s a great idea to carry a quality multi-tool, like a Leatherman.
A Leatherman comes in handy almost every day under normal circumstances
and could be used as a weapon in a pinch.
8. Dried fruits, such as raisins, apricots, and papaya – Dried fruits
are a great source of nutrients, calories, potassium, and fiber. They
can also be added to nuts to make delicious trail mixes.
9. Energy bars – Since these bars are typically loaded with carbs and
protein by design, they’re actually a good choice for your survival
storage (maximum nutrition with minimal effort and prep).
10. Canned soups and chili – Canned soups are easy to prepare and offer
a nice variety of ingredients for the effort. Look for low-sodium
options. Premium brands may be healthier, but value brands will make
your money go further.
11. Gauze/Bandages – For more serious injuries, you’ll want to keep a
supply of dedicated gauze and bandages.
12. Rubbing Alcohol – Rubbing alcohol burns on an open wound, but it is
a great way to sterilize instruments, surfaces, and the skin surrounding
a wound.
13. Batteries – Obviously, you’ll need to coordinate your battery
storage plan with any of the flashlights, radios, or other devices you
may keep in your emergency stockpile. Batteries will last longest in
cool dry conditions, but should be rotated out of your emergency supply
on a yearly basis.
14. Toilet Paper – Running out of toilet paper is annoying in any
situation. But you certainly don’t want to run out in a shelter-in-place
crisis scenario. My advice is to get more than enough. Life can get messy.
15. Trash Bags – Trash will still need to be properly disposed of, even
in a crisis. In fact, trash bags are even more important in a crisis. If
running water is unavailable, trash bags may have to double as a toilet.
Don’t skimp here.
16. Firearms – Last but certainly not least, you’re going to need some
type of weapon, just in case. It doesn’t have to be a gun, but then
again what else are you willing to risk your family’s safety on, a
sword? Pepper spray?
17. Drinking Water – Most experts recommend a 2-week supply of water in
your emergency storage. A 72-hour supply is the bare minimum. A water
filter can help you extend you supply by allowing you to reuse cooking
water.
18. Hand-Crank Radio – Hand crank radios offer the ability to listen to
important communications when power and cell networks are down. Some
hand crank radios even offer a USB charging functionality.
19. Camp Stove – There are a million options available for this purpose
– everything from handy backpacking stoves to heavy-duty outdoor ranges
– but it’s hard to beat the old self-contained Coleman camp stove.
20. Flashlights – When it comes to flashlights, I have two
recommendations, and neither one is expensive. First, find a comfortable
LED headlamp. Second, rather than finding the brightest, most high-tech
available, invest in a Maglite that runs on simple AA batteries.
areas on the floor. In this condition, I've had my sweat soaked shirt
tail touch a ground while I was working on a panel. Salt water and sweat
conduct electricity very, very well. o_O

TDD
As a kid I had salvaged a power supply out of an ancient TV that
didn't use a flyback system - the main power transformer had taps
from, IIRC, 3.5 volts to 25000 volts. The high voltage was at the
opposite end from the low voltage. I needed the low voltage to test a
small motor I was working on, but I grabbed the wires on the wrong
end. I must mention the basement ceiling was something like 5 1/2 ft
to the floor decking, about 42 inches to the bottom of the joists. I
was just under six feet tall at the time. I straightened up fery
quickly and my rock-hard skull caught the end of a nail that held the
1/4" unserlay to the sub-floor, and I popped the head of that nail
through the linoleum flooring in the living room above.


OUCH!! How deep was the hole in your skull or have you always had a hard
head? ^_^

TDD
It bled a bit, but I guess I've always been a bit hard headed.
If anyone told be I had rocks in my head, I'd just take it for
granite.

I'd not want a free atomic anything... too much
hazmat disposal fee.

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 9/25/2013 9:36 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 9/25/2013 7:28 PM, gregz wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 9/22/2013 5:17 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 9/22/2013 10:17 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Letter Manual Hair Clippers

http://www.survivalblog.com/2013/08/letter-re-manual-hair-clippers.html

Permalink
http://www.survivalblog.com/2013/08/letter-re-manual-hair-clippers.html |
Print
http://www.survivalblog.com/2013/08/letter_re_manual_hair_clippers.html

Jim,
I enjoy your blog very much, have been following it for years. Keep up
the good work.

On the many lists of items preppers are encouraged to obtain, I have
never seen hair clippers suggested. An essential item.
(By hair clippers I mean manual, not electric.) - Pastor D.

*JWR Replies:* Although they are probably still made in India and China,
the best place to find traditional clippers is /used/, via eBay or
Craigslist. If they are well-made and aren't rust-pitted, even a
century-old pair of clippers will probably last/another /century. Just
be sure to keep them well-oiled.



Subject:
By The Spirit
From:
Stormin Mormon
Date:
8/15/2013 9:24 AM
Newsgroups:
alt.survival

The LDS folks have an expression "by the Spirit". When there is a big
decision to make, we pray and listen for the guidance of the Spirit.

And sometimes in every day life, we are prompted BTS to do this or that.
Yesterday was such a day. It was lunch time, and I was out to buy pure
gas if I could find it, and also to get some to eat.

BTS, I was prompted to go to a particular pizza shop. The last time
there, the pizza was burnt around the edge, and I didn't much enjoy it.
But, so, the Spirit is prompting and there I went.

The TV was on, and the woman was behind the counter. The over head
lights were off, plenty of sunshine coming in the windows. I remarked
how they were having a cool afternoon with the lights off, and doors
open. No, she says, the power is off. For some odd reason the TV and
cash register are fine, but the lights and all the refrigeration is down.

Asked if they had any slices, and they did. Cashed out.

As I got back into my truck, I realized why I was here. I have a bunch
of promo flashlights with advertising. So, I took a couple back into the
store, and gave to the woman at the cash register. She loved it! Said
she had a light on her keyring, but no longer has the same keyring.

So, I got a perfectly cooked slice of pizza, she got a keyring light,
and she says they have some work for me, coming up. The power is out,
and I'm handing out flashlights. What's the odds?




--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

In the 70's working at NASA tracking station, we used loran to track
cesium
clock drift. There was a special receiver for that. Loran C and D. The
only
other way to measure cesium clock, was for them to bring in a portable
reference.

We also had cooled parametric preamplifier for the best noise
performance.
The hydrogen maser was for deep space tracking, and there was another
simple transistor amplifier backup. Most amplifiers can be cooled to get
better noise ratio.

Greg


There was an atomic clock in one room of the mission control center I
was involved in building, in another room was a liquid cooled Cray X-MP
super computer. That was 1988, I read somewhere a few years back that
the university had a Cray X-MP they were trying to give away. ^_^

TDD

Stormin Mormon wrote:
I'd not want a free atomic anything... too much
hazmat disposal fee.

.

Atomic does not necessarily mean it's radioactive.

Greg

On 9/26/13 7:50 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I'd not want a free atomic anything... too much
hazmat disposal fee.

.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org

The Norwegians have an experimental thorium reactor working.
Article he http://tinyurl.com/na8dqze
I guess there is less waste and it only has to be stored for 300 years
in some type of radiation containment structure.

On 09/26/2013 07:29 PM, gregz wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:
I'd not want a free atomic anything... too much
hazmat disposal fee.

.

Atomic does not necessarily mean it's radioactive.

Greg


Atomic really means "indivisible".

The Daring Dufas posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP



My brother was wearing one of those fancy Twist-O-Flex metal watchbands
which turned it into a heater element. I remember the TV commercials for
them from so many years ago. ^_^

TDD

Like John Cameron-Swayze says "Takes a lickin and
keeps on ticking" -- Timex watches

--
Tekkie

On Tue, 1 Oct 2013 21:52:51 -0400, Tekkie® wrote:

My brother was wearing one of those fancy Twist-O-Flex metal watchbands
which turned it into a heater element. I remember the TV commercials for
them from so many years ago. ^_^

TDD

Like John Cameron-Swayze says "Takes a lickin and
keeps on ticking" -- Timex watches

Farmer plowed up a lost Timex on his farm....still ticking.

On Wed, 02 Oct 2013 10:57:30 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Tue, 1 Oct 2013 21:52:51 -0400, Tekkie® wrote:

My brother was wearing one of those fancy Twist-O-Flex metal watchbands
which turned it into a heater element. I remember the TV commercials for
them from so many years ago. ^_^

TDD

Like John Cameron-Swayze says "Takes a lickin and
keeps on ticking" -- Timex watches

Farmer plowed up a lost Timex on his farm....still ticking.

I'll bet the Twist-O-Flex watchband wasn't worth ****, though. It
probably still had a piece of his arm in it.

Per Oren:
Like John Cameron-Swayze says "Takes a lickin and
keeps on ticking" -- Timex watches

Farmer plowed up a lost Timex on his farm....still ticking.

When I was a kid in Westport, CT; a friends father filmed the commercial
where they nailed a Timex watch to a board and Captain Tooker of the
local yacht club towed it around Long Island Sound.
--
Pete Cresswell