I've got some of these 8 or 10 socket surge protectors.

(The Belkin ones are in a metal case)

I might need to get more. So, looking at Amazon
at some of them, I, as usual, look at the
reader reviews, with ratings of 1(horrible) to 5(good,
excellent).

The poor ratings told stories of having to open them up
and bend peices to where they should, fix connections, etc.

QUESTION: What experience have you had with these two
main brands of surge protectors? Anything like the above?

Oh, some reviewers said that APC *used* to be
*excellent*, but that a few years APC moved its
production to China, and since then the quality
has fallen to like zero.

Your experiences?

And what fixes had to be done?

Did any of you make pictures/videos of repairing them?

Thanks,

David

On 05/14/2013 06:12 AM, David Combs wrote:
I've got some of these 8 or 10 socket surge protectors.

(The Belkin ones are in a metal case)

I might need to get more. So, looking at Amazon
at some of them, I, as usual, look at the
reader reviews, with ratings of 1(horrible) to 5(good,
excellent).

The poor ratings told stories of having to open them up
and bend peices to where they should, fix connections, etc.

Half the reason in getting a surge suppressor is for the system warranty
the manufacturer provides should your system become damaged by a
transient event. That warranty is going to be null and void if you
tamper with the housing of the suppressor.

Jon

On Tue, 14 May 2013 09:12:35 -0400, David Combs wrote:

I've got some of these 8 or 10 socket surge protectors.

(The Belkin ones are in a metal case)

I might need to get more. So, looking at Amazon at some of them, I, as
usual, look at the reader reviews, with ratings of 1(horrible) to
5(good, excellent).

Buy a non-sacrificial Class One type of protector like Brick Wall, SurgeX,
or Zero Surge. They actually stop surges, instead of merely attempting to
shunt them to ground. They don't wear out after repeated surge events.
The best ones even have line conditioners.

The only downside is price. About $400 each. You get what you pay for.

--
Tony Sivori

On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 9:12:35 AM UTC-4, David Combs wrote:
I've got some of these 8 or 10 socket surge protectors. (The Belkin ones are in a metal case) I might need to get more. So, looking at Amazon at some of them, I, as usual, look at the reader reviews, with ratings of 1(horrible) to 5(good, excellent). The poor ratings told stories of having to open them up and bend peices to where they should, fix connections, etc. QUESTION: What experience have you had with these two main brands of surge protectors? Anything like the above? Oh, some reviewers said that APC *used* to be *excellent*, but that a few years APC moved its production to China, and since then the quality has fallen to like zero. Your experiences? And what fixes had to be done? Did any of you make pictures/videos of repairing them? Thanks, David

It's all a waste of money. Most modern power supplies can handle a wide range of voltages. Lots of them work on 100 to 240 vac without changing any switches or anything.

On 05/14/2013 12:19 PM, jamesgang wrote:
On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 9:12:35 AM UTC-4, David Combs wrote:
I've got some of these 8 or 10 socket surge protectors. (The Belkin
ones are in a metal case) I might need to get more. So, looking at
Amazon at some of them, I, as usual, look at the reader reviews,
with ratings of 1(horrible) to 5(good, excellent). The poor ratings
told stories of having to open them up and bend peices to where
they should, fix connections, etc. QUESTION: What experience have
you had with these two main brands of surge protectors? Anything
like the above? Oh, some reviewers said that APC *used* to be
*excellent*, but that a few years APC moved its production to
China, and since then the quality has fallen to like zero. Your
experiences? And what fixes had to be done? Did any of you make
pictures/videos of repairing them? Thanks, David

It's all a waste of money. Most modern power supplies can handle a
wide range of voltages. Lots of them work on 100 to 240 vac without
changing any switches or anything.


I'm not so sure about that.

It's a rare occurrence, but a few years ago a tree fell on a power line
near where I used to live, which sent a massive spike through a several
block radius of homes - apparently one or more of the high voltage
transmission wires fell onto and contacted one of the 240VAC lines, and
a bunch of people got to see the principle of "letting the smoke out" in
action. A coworker who lived one street over lost several TVs among
other things; whereas in my house anything electronic was on a surge
strip and we also had one of those surge protectors at the panel and our
losses were considerably less. Sum total of losses in my house - the
power supply for the electrostatic air filter (which did not have its
own surge suppression; since added), the circuit board for the
dishwasher (obviously hardwired to the panel) and one surge strip in the
bedroom which when I checked it was over 10 years old.

The power company denied our claims for reimbursement, claiming that
this was an act of God or some such (they just sent out form letters to
everyone in the area.) Since the total cost was under $200 and a couple
hours of my time we didn't bother pressing the matter and it wasn't
worth even mentioning to homeowner's insurance. Others were not quite
so happy however...

I did replace the suppressor at the panel after that as I was pretty
sure that it was compromised at that point.

Did I have the *best* protection possible? Definitely not. Did it
help, in that one instance? Absolutely.

If I need a power strip for anything, I get one with surge suppression.
The cost difference is minimal - it's probably just a couple MOVs in
there after all - and I don't really see the downside.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 5/14/2013 2:43 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 05/14/2013 12:19 PM, jamesgang wrote:
On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 9:12:35 AM UTC-4, David Combs wrote:
I've got some of these 8 or 10 socket surge protectors. (The Belkin
ones are in a metal case) I might need to get more. So, looking at
Amazon at some of them, I, as usual, look at the reader reviews,
with ratings of 1(horrible) to 5(good, excellent). The poor ratings
told stories of having to open them up and bend peices to where
they should, fix connections, etc. QUESTION: What experience have
you had with these two main brands of surge protectors? Anything
like the above? Oh, some reviewers said that APC *used* to be
*excellent*, but that a few years APC moved its production to
China, and since then the quality has fallen to like zero. Your
experiences? And what fixes had to be done? Did any of you make
pictures/videos of repairing them? Thanks, David

It's all a waste of money. Most modern power supplies can handle a
wide range of voltages. Lots of them work on 100 to 240 vac without
changing any switches or anything.


I'm not so sure about that.

It's a rare occurrence, but a few years ago a tree fell on a power line
near where I used to live, which sent a massive spike through a several
block radius of homes - apparently one or more of the high voltage
transmission wires fell onto and contacted one of the 240VAC lines, and
a bunch of people got to see the principle of "letting the smoke out" in
action. A coworker who lived one street over lost several TVs among
other things; whereas in my house anything electronic was on a surge
strip and we also had one of those surge protectors at the panel and our
losses were considerably less. Sum total of losses in my house - the
power supply for the electrostatic air filter (which did not have its
own surge suppression; since added), the circuit board for the
dishwasher (obviously hardwired to the panel) and one surge strip in the
bedroom which when I checked it was over 10 years old.

The power company denied our claims for reimbursement, claiming that
this was an act of God or some such (they just sent out form letters to
everyone in the area.) Since the total cost was under $200 and a couple
hours of my time we didn't bother pressing the matter and it wasn't
worth even mentioning to homeowner's insurance. Others were not quite
so happy however...

I did replace the suppressor at the panel after that as I was pretty
sure that it was compromised at that point.

Did I have the *best* protection possible? Definitely not. Did it
help, in that one instance? Absolutely.

If I need a power strip for anything, I get one with surge suppression.
The cost difference is minimal - it's probably just a couple MOVs in
there after all - and I don't really see the downside.

nate


I agree. Parallels my experience. I've got surge protectors on all
TV's and other appliances like phones, microwave oven and refrigerator
and battery back up on computers.

I've heard that "act of God" BS but fact was that power company was
saving money on their normal tree trimming.

When surge protector does its job and fails, the light goes out. It
will still supply power but will not protect.

On May 14, 3:10*pm, Frank wrote:
On 5/14/2013 2:43 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:





On 05/14/2013 12:19 PM, jamesgang wrote:
On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 9:12:35 AM UTC-4, David Combs wrote:
I've got some of these 8 or 10 socket surge protectors. (The Belkin
ones are in a metal case) I might need to get more. So, looking at
Amazon at some of them, I, as usual, look at the reader reviews,
with ratings of 1(horrible) to 5(good, excellent). The poor ratings
told stories of having to open them up and bend peices to where
they should, fix connections, etc. QUESTION: What experience have
you had with these two main brands of surge protectors? Anything
like the above? Oh, some reviewers said that APC *used* to be
*excellent*, but that a few years APC moved its production to
China, and since then the quality has fallen to like zero. Your
experiences? And what fixes had to be done? Did any of you make
pictures/videos of repairing them? Thanks, David

It's all a waste of money. *Most modern power supplies can handle a
wide range of voltages. *Lots of them work on 100 to 240 vac without
changing any switches or anything.

I'm not so sure about that.

It's a rare occurrence, but a few years ago a tree fell on a power line
near where I used to live, which sent a massive spike through a several
block radius of homes - apparently one or more of the high voltage
transmission wires fell onto and contacted one of the 240VAC lines, and
a bunch of people got to see the principle of "letting the smoke out" in
action. *A coworker who lived one street over lost several TVs among
other things; whereas in my house anything electronic was on a surge
strip and we also had one of those surge protectors at the panel and our
losses were considerably less. *Sum total of losses in my house - the
power supply for the electrostatic air filter (which did not have its
own surge suppression; since added), the circuit board for the
dishwasher (obviously hardwired to the panel) and one surge strip in the
bedroom which when I checked it was over 10 years old.

The power company denied our claims for reimbursement, claiming that
this was an act of God or some such (they just sent out form letters to
everyone in the area.) *Since the total cost was under $200 and a couple
hours of my time we didn't bother pressing the matter and it wasn't
worth even mentioning to homeowner's insurance. *Others were not quite
so happy however...

I did replace the suppressor at the panel after that as I was pretty
sure that it was compromised at that point.

Did I have the *best* protection possible? *Definitely not. *Did it
help, in that one instance? *Absolutely.

If I need a power strip for anything, I get one with surge suppression.
* The cost difference is minimal - it's probably just a couple MOVs in
there after all - and I don't really see the downside.

nate

I agree. *Parallels my experience. *I've got surge protectors on all
TV's and other appliances like phones, microwave oven and refrigerator
and battery back up on computers.

I've heard that "act of God" BS but fact was that power company was
saving money on their normal tree trimming.

When surge protector does its job and fails, the light goes out. *It
will still supply power but will not protect.

I know this gal, her husband attepted to cut down a tree on their
property. The tree came down but dropped a 15KV volt line on a local
circuit 120 / 240 it took out over 20 grand of electronics on that
circuit

their homeowers insurance paid for all the equiptement but changed
their policy to exclude it in the future.

the gal believed people collected broken equiptement from friends
because people claimed so many failures. no doubt she was accurate.....

Did I have the *best* protection possible? *Definitely not. *Did it
help, in that one instance? *Absolutely.

If I need a power strip for anything, I get one with surge suppression.
* The cost difference is minimal - it's probably just a couple MOVs in
there after all - and I don't really see the downside.

nate

I agree but with one caveat...

I prefer the surge suppressed outlet strips be housed in metal. MOVs
can catch fire.
I don't like the idea of a burning MOV inside a plastic housing under
the curtains..
MOVs in the main (metal) panel are very good thing.

Mark

On 5/14/2013 2:43 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 05/14/2013 12:19 PM, jamesgang wrote:
On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 9:12:35 AM UTC-4, David Combs wrote:
I've got some of these 8 or 10 socket surge protectors. (The Belkin
ones are in a metal case) I might need to get more. So, looking at
Amazon at some of them, I, as usual, look at the reader reviews,
with ratings of 1(horrible) to 5(good, excellent). The poor ratings
told stories of having to open them up and bend peices to where
they should, fix connections, etc. QUESTION: What experience have
you had with these two main brands of surge protectors? Anything
like the above? Oh, some reviewers said that APC *used* to be
*excellent*, but that a few years APC moved its production to
China, and since then the quality has fallen to like zero. Your
experiences? And what fixes had to be done? Did any of you make
pictures/videos of repairing them? Thanks, David

It's all a waste of money. Most modern power supplies can handle a
wide range of voltages. Lots of them work on 100 to 240 vac without
changing any switches or anything.

Idiot.

I'm not so sure about that.

It's a rare occurrence, but a few years ago a tree fell on a power line
near where I used to live, which sent a massive spike through a several
block radius of homes - apparently one or more of the high voltage
transmission wires fell onto and contacted one of the 240VAC lines, and
a bunch of people got to see the principle of "letting the smoke out" in
action. A coworker who lived one street over lost several TVs among
other things; whereas in my house anything electronic was on a surge
strip and we also had one of those surge protectors at the panel and our
losses were considerably less. Sum total of losses in my house - the
power supply for the electrostatic air filter (which did not have its
own surge suppression; since added), the circuit board for the
dishwasher (obviously hardwired to the panel) and one surge strip in the
bedroom which when I checked it was over 10 years old.

The power company denied our claims for reimbursement, claiming that
this was an act of God or some such (they just sent out form letters to
everyone in the area.) Since the total cost was under $200 and a couple
hours of my time we didn't bother pressing the matter and it wasn't
worth even mentioning to homeowner's insurance. Others were not quite
so happy however...

I did replace the suppressor at the panel after that as I was pretty
sure that it was compromised at that point.

Did I have the *best* protection possible? Definitely not. Did it
help, in that one instance? Absolutely.

If I need a power strip for anything, I get one with surge suppression.
The cost difference is minimal - it's probably just a couple MOVs in
there after all - and I don't really see the downside.

nate

You were smart to have that. After a power line went down out here, the
power company hooked up the power wrong. 3 houses burned to the ground,
the one with protection survived.



--
Jeff

David Combs wrote:
I've got some of these 8 or 10 socket surge protectors.

(The Belkin ones are in a metal case)

I might need to get more. So, looking at Amazon
at some of them, I, as usual, look at the
reader reviews, with ratings of 1(horrible) to 5(good,
excellent).

The poor ratings told stories of having to open them up
and bend peices to where they should, fix connections, etc.

QUESTION: What experience have you had with these two
main brands of surge protectors? Anything like the above?

Oh, some reviewers said that APC *used* to be
*excellent*, but that a few years APC moved its
production to China, and since then the quality
has fallen to like zero.

Your experiences?

And what fixes had to be done?

Did any of you make pictures/videos of repairing them?

Thanks,

Investigate "Whole House" surge protectors. Perfectly adequate ones should
be in the neighborhood of $75 or less and do, in general, a sterling job of
protection. Look for:
..Meets UL Standard 1449 (second edition)
..Has a clamping voltage - the amount that triggers the diversion of
electricity to the ground - of 400 volts or less. The lower the number, the
better the protection
..Absorbs at least 600 joules of energy
..Protects all three incoming lines: hot, neutral, and ground. Look for "L-N,
L-G, N-G" (line to neutral, line to ground, neutral to ground) on the
product's spec sheet
* 40,000 amps surge protection
..Stops functioning when its circuits are damaged by a surge

In addition, they are almost trival to install.

Also, it's NOT a "belt and suspenders" approach to include individual power
strips in your circuitry. Smaller power surges can be triggered by devices
INSIDE your house: laser printers, electric dryers, refrigerators, and other
electronics.

Use both whole-house AND power-strip surge protectors.

On May 14, 12:10*pm, Tony Sivori wrote:
On Tue, 14 May 2013 09:12:35 -0400, David Combs wrote:
I've got some of these 8 or 10 socket surge protectors.

(The Belkin ones are in a metal case)

I might need to get more. *So, looking at Amazon at some of them, I, as
usual, look at the reader reviews, *with ratings of 1(horrible) to
5(good, excellent).

Buy a non-sacrificial Class One type of protector like Brick Wall, SurgeX,
or Zero Surge. They actually stop surges, instead of merely attempting to
shunt them to ground. They don't wear out after repeated surge events.
The best ones even have line conditioners.

The only downside is price. About $400 each. You get what you pay for.

--
Tony Sivori

From reading the description of how they operate, the
other downside would appear to be that unlike the
simpler MOV types, they don't shunt the surge directly
to ground or anywhere else. The incoming pulse sees
an inductor, which presents a very high impedance to
the surge. While that does protect the eqpt on the other
side of the surge protector, it also leaves the surge on
the incoming AC line. With it not shunted to ground,
it's left on the AC line for it to find it's way to ground
somehow and that is what it's going to do. And that could
be through arcing through insulation or through another
unproteced load on the AC line.

On May 14, 12:19*pm, jamesgang wrote:
On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 9:12:35 AM UTC-4, David Combs wrote:
I've got some of these 8 or 10 socket surge protectors. (The Belkin ones are in a metal case) I might need to get more. So, looking at Amazon at some of them, I, as usual, look at the reader reviews, with ratings of 1(horrible) to 5(good, excellent). The poor ratings told stories of having to open them up and bend peices to where they should, fix connections, etc. QUESTION: What experience have you had with these two main brands of surge protectors? Anything like the above? Oh, some reviewers said that APC *used* to be *excellent*, but that a few years APC moved its production to China, and since then the quality has fallen to like zero. Your experiences? And what fixes had to be done? Did any of you make pictures/videos of repairing them? Thanks, David

It's all a waste of money. *Most modern power supplies can handle a wide range of voltages. *Lots of them work on 100 to 240 vac without changing any switches or anything.

Do they handle a 4000V surge when lightning
hits the power lines near the house? That's what
surge protectors are for, not small voltage differences.

On 5/14/2013 12:43 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 05/14/2013 12:19 PM, jamesgang wrote:
On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 9:12:35 AM UTC-4, David Combs wrote:

As I have often posted, excellent information on surges and surge
protection is at:
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf
- "How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide
for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and
communication circuits" published by the IEEE.
And also:
http://www.eeel.nist.gov/817/pubs/sp...%20happen!.pdf
- "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to protect the
appliances in your home" published by the US National Institute of
Standards and Technology

The IEEE surge guide is aimed at people with some technical background
(but should be quite readable for almost anyone here). The NIST surge
guide is aimed at the unwashed masses.



It's all a waste of money. Most modern power supplies can handle a
wide range of voltages. Lots of them work on 100 to 240 vac without
changing any switches or anything.

I agree with trader. Surges you worry about are a far higher voltage
than 240V.

I do not think anything in a house would produce a surge that would
damage equipment in the house. The main source of damaging surges is
lightning. Next is normal and abnormal electrical utility operations.


I'm not so sure about that.

It's a rare occurrence, but a few years ago a tree fell on a power line
near where I used to live, which sent a massive spike through a several
block radius of homes - apparently one or more of the high voltage
transmission wires fell onto and contacted one of the 240VAC lines, and
a bunch of people got to see the principle of "letting the smoke out" in
action. A coworker who lived one street over lost several TVs among
other things; whereas in my house anything electronic was on a surge
strip and we also had one of those surge protectors at the panel and our
losses were considerably less. Sum total of losses in my house - the
power supply for the electrostatic air filter (which did not have its
own surge suppression; since added), the circuit board for the
dishwasher (obviously hardwired to the panel) and one surge strip in the
bedroom which when I checked it was over 10 years old.


A surge is, by definition, a very short duration event. Crossed power
lines are not a surge. MOVs, which can handle thousands of amps for the
short duration of a surge can be rapidly burned out by the much longer
duration of crossed power lines. This is covered in the IEEE surge
guide. Neither service panel or plug-in protectors will reliably protect
from crossed power lines. A UPS that disconnects may be the best
protection. (On the other hand, surge protectors are likely better than
nothing.)

When using a plug-in protector all interconnected equipment needs to be
connected to the same protector. External connections, like coax, also
*must* go through the protector.

UL has, since 1998, required thermal disconnects for overheating MOVs. I
am not aware that fires are a problem for UL listed protectors made
since 1998. Any surge protector you buy in the US should be listed under
UL1449. (Some UPSs don't seem to be.)

I have not seen reliable information that non-MOV based protectors (like
SurgeX) are better (or as good as).

Best protection is a service panel protector, a "single point ground"
with short connections from cable, phone, ... entry protectors to a
common connection point, and plug-in protectors connected correctly for
high value electronics - particularly if it has both power and signal
connections.