I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it only has
one neutral/ground bar. The neutral/ground bar is on the right side of the
panel.

I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on the
left side and, if so, how to do that.

The information about Siemens service panels is located at:
http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/g..._App_Guide.pdf .

This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20 circuits. On
page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on 24
circuits and below". So that explains why the panel that I have only has
one neutral bar installed.

My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left side
and, if so, how do I do that? Thanks.

On Apr 25, 10:27*am, "TomR" wrote:
I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it only has
one neutral/ground bar. *The neutral/ground bar is on the right side of the
panel.

I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on the
left side and, if so, how to do that.

The information about Siemens service panels is located at:http://www.hqs..sbt.siemens.com/gip/...ets/US/SIILV/S....

This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20 circuits. *On
page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on 24
circuits and below". *So that explains why the panel that I have only has
one neutral bar installed.

My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left side
and, if so, how do I do that? *Thanks.

Is it just that you want a neutral/ground bus on the other
side for convenience or is it that you've run out of terminals?
If it's the latter, the product guide has a ECGB14, which is a ground
bar
that can be installed in that panel. So, one way to do it would
be to add that ground bar, move some of the ground wires
from the existing neutral/ground bus to it, thereby freeing up
other terminals for more neutrals.

If you just want another neutral/ground bus on the other side,
not sure if you can do that and be code compliant.

wrote:
On Apr 25, 10:27 am, "TomR" wrote:
I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it
only has
one neutral/ground bar. The neutral/ground bar is on the right side
of the
panel.

I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on
the
left side and, if so, how to do that.

The information about Siemens service panels is located
at:http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/g...ets/US/SIILV/S....

This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20
circuits. On
page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on 24
circuits and below". So that explains why the panel that I have only
has
one neutral bar installed.

My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the
left side
and, if so, how do I do that? Thanks.

Is it just that you want a neutral/ground bus on the other
side for convenience or is it that you've run out of terminals?

It's a little of both. For convenience, I would like to be able to have a
neutral/ground bus on the other side if possible. But, it also looks like I
am going to run out of available terminals on the existing ground/neutral
bar.

If it's the latter, the product guide has a ECGB14, which is a ground
bar
that can be installed in that panel. So, one way to do it would
be to add that ground bar, move some of the ground wires
from the existing neutral/ground bus to it, thereby freeing up
other terminals for more neutrals.

That's a good suggestion, and maybe I'll end up doing that if that becomes
my only option.

If you just want another neutral/ground bus on the other side,
not sure if you can do that and be code compliant.

Okay, thanks.

I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it only
has one neutral/ground bar. The neutral/ground bar is on the right side of
the panel.

I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on the
left side and, if so, how to do that.

The information about Siemens service panels is located at:
http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/g..._App_Guide.pdf .

This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20 circuits.
On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on 24
circuits and below". So that explains why the panel that I have only has
one neutral bar installed.

My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left
side and, if so, how do I do that? Thanks.


*Drill and tap two 8/32 holes. Mount the ground bar. Run a number 8 or 6
wire from the new ground bar to the existing ground/neutral bar.

On Apr 25, 4:21*pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it only
has one neutral/ground bar. *The neutral/ground bar is on the right side of
the panel.

I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on the
left side and, if so, how to do that.

The information about Siemens service panels is located at:
http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/g...ets/US/SIILV/S.....

This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20 circuits..
On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on 24
circuits and below". *So that explains why the panel that I have only has
one neutral bar installed.

My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left
side and, if so, how do I do that? *Thanks.

*Drill and tap two 8/32 holes. *Mount the ground bar. *Run a number 8 or 6
wire from the new ground bar to the existing ground/neutral bar.

if the cabinet is too thin to tap but mounted on plywood like it
should be, just drill holes and use wood screws to mount the ground
bar to the cabinet, then heavy copper between the old and new ground
bars...

On Apr 25, 4:21*pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it only
has one neutral/ground bar. *The neutral/ground bar is on the right side of
the panel.

I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on the
left side and, if so, how to do that.

The information about Siemens service panels is located at:
http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/g...ets/US/SIILV/S.....

This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20 circuits..
On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on 24
circuits and below". *So that explains why the panel that I have only has
one neutral bar installed.

My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left
side and, if so, how do I do that? *Thanks.

*Drill and tap two 8/32 holes. *Mount the ground bar. *Run a number 8 or 6
wire from the new ground bar to the existing ground/neutral bar.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But what he originally asked for was adding a second
"ground/neutral bar" on the other side of the panel. You can add a
ground bar and I don't think he needs to drill any holes, as Siemens
has one for the panel, so it should already have compatible holes.
But I think that's only code compliant as an additional ground bar,
meaning you can't use it for neutrals..... Is that correct? If
he moves some ground wires from the existing neutral/ground
bus to the new bar though he would free up locations for more neutral
wires.

Also, can't you put more than one ground wire under a screw
in at least some panels? That alone might solve the problem?

On 4/25/2013 7:13 PM, wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:21 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it only
has one neutral/ground bar. The neutral/ground bar is on the right side of
the panel.
I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on the
left side and, if so, how to do that.
The information about Siemens service panels is located at:
http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/g...ets/US/SIILV/S....
This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20 circuits.
On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on 24
circuits and below". So that explains why the panel that I have only has
one neutral bar installed.
My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left
side and, if so, how do I do that? Thanks.
*Drill and tap two 8/32 holes. Mount the ground bar. Run a number 8 or 6
wire from the new ground bar to the existing ground/neutral bar.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
But what he originally asked for was adding a second
"ground/neutral bar" on the other side of the panel. You can add a
ground bar and I don't think he needs to drill any holes, as Siemens
has one for the panel, so it should already have compatible holes.
But I think that's only code compliant as an additional ground bar,
meaning you can't use it for neutrals..... Is that correct? If
he moves some ground wires from the existing neutral/ground
bus to the new bar though he would free up locations for more neutral
wires.

Also, can't you put more than one ground wire under a screw
in at least some panels? That alone might solve the problem?
If the bar is threaded into the panel, it would suffice as a ground bar
only. If as John said, you run a #6 or 8 from it to the neutral bar,
it'll work for both.
You can put two grounds under one screw is some panels as well

On Apr 25, 4:13*pm, "
wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:21*pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:









I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it only
has one neutral/ground bar. *The neutral/ground bar is on the right side of
the panel.

I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on the
left side and, if so, how to do that.

The information about Siemens service panels is located at:
http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/g...ets/US/SIILV/S.....

This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20 circuits.
On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on 24
circuits and below". *So that explains why the panel that I have only has
one neutral bar installed.

My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left
side and, if so, how do I do that? *Thanks.

*Drill and tap two 8/32 holes. *Mount the ground bar. *Run a number 8 or 6
wire from the new ground bar to the existing ground/neutral bar.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But what he originally asked for was adding a second
"ground/neutral bar" on the other side of the panel. *You can add a
ground bar and I don't think he needs to drill any holes, as Siemens
has one for the panel, so it should already have compatible holes.
But I think that's only code compliant as an additional ground bar,
meaning you can't use it for neutrals..... *Is that correct? *If
he moves some ground wires from the existing neutral/ground
bus to the new bar though he would free up locations for more neutral
wires.

Also, can't you put more than one ground wire under a screw
in at least some panels? * That alone might solve the problem?

I believe you can double up ground wires but neutral wires must be one
per screw.

On Apr 25, 9:07*pm, DD_BobK wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:13*pm, "
wrote:





On Apr 25, 4:21*pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:

I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it only
has one neutral/ground bar. *The neutral/ground bar is on the right side of
the panel.

I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on the
left side and, if so, how to do that.

The information about Siemens service panels is located at:
http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/g...ets/US/SIILV/S....

This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20 circuits.
On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on 24
circuits and below". *So that explains why the panel that I have only has
one neutral bar installed.

My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left
side and, if so, how do I do that? *Thanks.

*Drill and tap two 8/32 holes. *Mount the ground bar. *Run a number 8 or 6
wire from the new ground bar to the existing ground/neutral bar.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But what he originally asked for was adding a second
"ground/neutral bar" on the other side of the panel. *You can add a
ground bar and I don't think he needs to drill any holes, as Siemens
has one for the panel, so it should already have compatible holes.
But I think that's only code compliant as an additional ground bar,
meaning you can't use it for neutrals..... *Is that correct? *If
he moves some ground wires from the existing neutral/ground
bus to the new bar though he would free up locations for more neutral
wires.

Also, can't you put more than one ground wire under a screw
in at least some panels? * That alone might solve the problem?

I believe you can double up ground wires but neutral wires must be one
per screw.

Why put 2 under one screw if you dont have to? The panel will look far
better if its neat and organized thats one wire per screw and
definetely tie the 2 bars together...

"RBM" wrote in message
...
On 4/25/2013 7:13 PM, wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:21 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it
only
has one neutral/ground bar. The neutral/ground bar is on the right
side of
the panel.
I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on
the
left side and, if so, how to do that.
The information about Siemens service panels is located at:
http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/g...ets/US/SIILV/S....
This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20
circuits.
On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on
24
circuits and below". So that explains why the panel that I have only
has
one neutral bar installed.
My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left
side and, if so, how do I do that? Thanks.
*Drill and tap two 8/32 holes. Mount the ground bar. Run a number 8 or
6
wire from the new ground bar to the existing ground/neutral bar.- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
But what he originally asked for was adding a second
"ground/neutral bar" on the other side of the panel. You can add a
ground bar and I don't think he needs to drill any holes, as Siemens
has one for the panel, so it should already have compatible holes.
But I think that's only code compliant as an additional ground bar,
meaning you can't use it for neutrals..... Is that correct? If
he moves some ground wires from the existing neutral/ground
bus to the new bar though he would free up locations for more neutral
wires.

Also, can't you put more than one ground wire under a screw
in at least some panels? That alone might solve the problem?

If the bar is threaded into the panel, it would suffice as a ground bar
only. If as John said, you run a #6 or 8 from it to the neutral bar, it'll
work for both.

Thanks. I think that is going to be the plan -- to add a ground bar and, as
John said, run a #6 or 8 from it to the neutral bar so it will work as a
ground and a neutral bar.

And, as Trader4 siad, "the product guide has a ECGB14, which is a ground bar
that can be installed in that panel", so we can use that since it is made
for that panel and it is made to be threaded into the panel.

You can put two grounds under one screw is some panels as well.

That's good to know. I did see that the electrician who put the panel in
did put two grounds under one screw is a couple of cases for the circuits
that he installed; but only one neutral wire (by itself) under any screw.

I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it
only
has one neutral/ground bar. The neutral/ground bar is on the right
side of
the panel.
I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on
the
left side and, if so, how to do that.
The information about Siemens service panels is located at:
http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/g...ets/US/SIILV/S....
This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20
circuits.
On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on
24
circuits and below". So that explains why the panel that I have only
has
one neutral bar installed.
My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left
side and, if so, how do I do that? Thanks.
*Drill and tap two 8/32 holes. Mount the ground bar. Run a number 8
or 6
wire from the new ground bar to the existing ground/neutral bar.- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
But what he originally asked for was adding a second
"ground/neutral bar" on the other side of the panel. You can add a
ground bar and I don't think he needs to drill any holes, as Siemens
has one for the panel, so it should already have compatible holes.
But I think that's only code compliant as an additional ground bar,
meaning you can't use it for neutrals..... Is that correct? If
he moves some ground wires from the existing neutral/ground
bus to the new bar though he would free up locations for more neutral
wires.

Also, can't you put more than one ground wire under a screw
in at least some panels? That alone might solve the problem?

If the bar is threaded into the panel, it would suffice as a ground bar
only. If as John said, you run a #6 or 8 from it to the neutral bar,
it'll work for both.

Thanks. I think that is going to be the plan -- to add a ground bar and,
as John said, run a #6 or 8 from it to the neutral bar so it will work as
a ground and a neutral bar.

And, as Trader4 siad, "the product guide has a ECGB14, which is a ground
bar that can be installed in that panel", so we can use that since it is
made for that panel and it is made to be threaded into the panel.

You can put two grounds under one screw is some panels as well.

That's good to know. I did see that the electrician who put the panel in
did put two grounds under one screw is a couple of cases for the circuits
that he installed; but only one neutral wire (by itself) under any screw.


*If you read the label on the Siemens panel, it should tell you how many
ground wires you can get under one screw. Sometimes it is more than two.
Neutrals are one per screw.

On Apr 25, 7:44*pm, RBM wrote:
On 4/25/2013 7:13 PM, wrote:



On Apr 25, 4:21 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it only
has one neutral/ground bar. *The neutral/ground bar is on the right side of
the panel.
I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on the
left side and, if so, how to do that.
The information about Siemens service panels is located at:
http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/g...ets/US/SIILV/S.....
This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20 circuits.
On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on 24
circuits and below". *So that explains why the panel that I have only has
one neutral bar installed.
My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left
side and, if so, how do I do that? *Thanks.
*Drill and tap two 8/32 holes. *Mount the ground bar. *Run a number 8 or 6
wire from the new ground bar to the existing ground/neutral bar.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
But what he originally asked for was adding a second
"ground/neutral bar" on the other side of the panel. *You can add a
ground bar and I don't think he needs to drill any holes, as Siemens
has one for the panel, so it should already have compatible holes.
But I think that's only code compliant as an additional ground bar,
meaning you can't use it for neutrals..... *Is that correct? *If
he moves some ground wires from the existing neutral/ground
bus to the new bar though he would free up locations for more neutral
wires.

Also, can't you put more than one ground wire under a screw
in at least some panels? * That alone might solve the problem?

If the bar is threaded into the panel, it would suffice as a ground bar
only. If as John said, you run a #6 or 8 from it to the neutral bar,
it'll work for both.
You can put two grounds under one screw is some panels as well- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But something about that doesn't seem quite right. If you just run
a #6 or #8 wire between the new bar and the old bar, then
you're relying on that wire to potentially carry the max current
rating (100 amps) of the panel when in service, on a regular
basis, as opposed to just a ground fault condition, no?
Which could occur. I would think the conductor between the
two would have to be rated for at least the max current of the
panel, (100 amps).

Isn't there a similar issue also with using an add on "ground" bar
as both a ground bar and neutral? The bar in the Siemens catalog
is listed for use with that panel as a ground bar, but does that
mean that it has the same current rating, etc that a neutral
bar would have? I realize in practice it may actually be the same
bar, but who knows?

On Apr 26, 7:33*am, "
wrote:
On Apr 25, 7:44*pm, RBM wrote:





On 4/25/2013 7:13 PM, wrote:

On Apr 25, 4:21 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it only
has one neutral/ground bar. *The neutral/ground bar is on the right side of
the panel.
I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on the
left side and, if so, how to do that.
The information about Siemens service panels is located at:
http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/g...ets/US/SIILV/S....
This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20 circuits.
On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on 24
circuits and below". *So that explains why the panel that I have only has
one neutral bar installed.
My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left
side and, if so, how do I do that? *Thanks.
*Drill and tap two 8/32 holes. *Mount the ground bar. *Run a number 8 or 6
wire from the new ground bar to the existing ground/neutral bar.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
But what he originally asked for was adding a second
"ground/neutral bar" on the other side of the panel. *You can add a
ground bar and I don't think he needs to drill any holes, as Siemens
has one for the panel, so it should already have compatible holes.
But I think that's only code compliant as an additional ground bar,
meaning you can't use it for neutrals..... *Is that correct? *If
he moves some ground wires from the existing neutral/ground
bus to the new bar though he would free up locations for more neutral
wires.

Also, can't you put more than one ground wire under a screw
in at least some panels? * That alone might solve the problem?

If the bar is threaded into the panel, it would suffice as a ground bar
only. If as John said, you run a #6 or 8 from it to the neutral bar,
it'll work for both.
You can put two grounds under one screw is some panels as well- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But something about that doesn't seem quite right. *If you just run
a #6 or #8 wire between the new bar and the old bar, then
you're relying on that wire to potentially carry the max current
rating (100 amps) of the panel when in service, on a regular
basis, as opposed to just a ground fault condition, no?
Which could occur. *I would think the conductor between the
two would have to be rated for at least the max current of the
panel, (100 amps).

*Isn't there a similar issue also with using an add on "ground" bar
as both a ground bar and neutral? * The bar in the Siemens catalog
is listed for use with that panel as a ground bar, but does that
mean that it has the same current rating, etc that a neutral
bar would have? * I realize in practice it may actually be the same
bar, but who knows?

well you could run 2 heavy copper lines between the bars....... how
heavy is the neutral line to the existing bar?

On Apr 26, 7:41*am, bob haller wrote:
On Apr 26, 7:33*am, "
wrote:





On Apr 25, 7:44*pm, RBM wrote:

On 4/25/2013 7:13 PM, wrote:

On Apr 25, 4:21 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it only
has one neutral/ground bar. *The neutral/ground bar is on the right side of
the panel.
I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on the
left side and, if so, how to do that.
The information about Siemens service panels is located at:
http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/g...ets/US/SIILV/S....
This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20 circuits.
On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on 24
circuits and below". *So that explains why the panel that I have only has
one neutral bar installed.
My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left
side and, if so, how do I do that? *Thanks.
*Drill and tap two 8/32 holes. *Mount the ground bar. *Run a number 8 or 6
wire from the new ground bar to the existing ground/neutral bar.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
But what he originally asked for was adding a second
"ground/neutral bar" on the other side of the panel. *You can add a
ground bar and I don't think he needs to drill any holes, as Siemens
has one for the panel, so it should already have compatible holes.
But I think that's only code compliant as an additional ground bar,
meaning you can't use it for neutrals..... *Is that correct? *If
he moves some ground wires from the existing neutral/ground
bus to the new bar though he would free up locations for more neutral
wires.

Also, can't you put more than one ground wire under a screw
in at least some panels? * That alone might solve the problem?

If the bar is threaded into the panel, it would suffice as a ground bar
only. If as John said, you run a #6 or 8 from it to the neutral bar,
it'll work for both.
You can put two grounds under one screw is some panels as well- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But something about that doesn't seem quite right. *If you just run
a #6 or #8 wire between the new bar and the old bar, then
you're relying on that wire to potentially carry the max current
rating (100 amps) of the panel when in service, on a regular
basis, as opposed to just a ground fault condition, no?
Which could occur. *I would think the conductor between the
two would have to be rated for at least the max current of the
panel, (100 amps).

*Isn't there a similar issue also with using an add on "ground" bar
as both a ground bar and neutral? * The bar in the Siemens catalog
is listed for use with that panel as a ground bar, but does that
mean that it has the same current rating, etc that a neutral
bar would have? * I realize in practice it may actually be the same
bar, but who knows?

well you could run 2 heavy copper lines between the bars....... how
heavy is the neutral line to the existing bar?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think there are two seperate issues/questions here. One is what
minimum things need to be in place from an electrical circuit
theory perspective. And unless I'm missing something, that
says the conductor between the bars better be at least the capacity
of the panel, ie 100 amps.

The other is what is technically allowed by code, how the panel and
bar
are UL listed, tested, etc. For example, it's been debated here
whether you
can add a simple mechanical slide lock-out for a generator to
an existing panel when that slide isn't made by that panel
manufacturer,
hasn't been UL listed for use with that panel, etc. That slide just
sits on
top of the panel, doesn't even have direct electrical involvement. It
just prevents two breakers from being "on" at the same time.
So, thinking along those
lines, we have a bar rated and listed for use with the panel as a
ground bar. The installation instructions only say how to install it
as a ground bar. Is it code compliant to use that for neutrals too?
What's the current rating of that bar? What would an inspector say?

I would think you, being very concerned that anything potentially
not being done fully compliant will come back to bite you in a
lawsuit from a future owner, a denied insurance claim, etc
would agree that there are issues other than what will work
electrically. If he installs it, uses it only for grounds, moves
some
of the existing grounds from the current "neutral/ground bar" over
to it, he can get more neutral connections and I think we all
agree it's 100% code compliant. Using that added ground bar
as a neutral bar, I'm not convinced.

On Apr 25, 10:08*pm, bob haller wrote:
On Apr 25, 9:07*pm, DD_BobK wrote:





On Apr 25, 4:13*pm, "
wrote:

On Apr 25, 4:21*pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:

I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it only
has one neutral/ground bar. *The neutral/ground bar is on the right side of
the panel.

I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on the
left side and, if so, how to do that.

The information about Siemens service panels is located at:
http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/g...ets/US/SIILV/S....

This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20 circuits.
On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on 24
circuits and below". *So that explains why the panel that I have only has
one neutral bar installed.

My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left
side and, if so, how do I do that? *Thanks.

*Drill and tap two 8/32 holes. *Mount the ground bar. *Run a number 8 or 6
wire from the new ground bar to the existing ground/neutral bar.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But what he originally asked for was adding a second
"ground/neutral bar" on the other side of the panel. *You can add a
ground bar and I don't think he needs to drill any holes, as Siemens
has one for the panel, so it should already have compatible holes.
But I think that's only code compliant as an additional ground bar,
meaning you can't use it for neutrals..... *Is that correct? *If
he moves some ground wires from the existing neutral/ground
bus to the new bar though he would free up locations for more neutral
wires.

Also, can't you put more than one ground wire under a screw
in at least some panels? * That alone might solve the problem?

I believe you can double up ground wires but neutral wires must be one
per screw.

Why put 2 under one screw if you dont have to? The panel will look far
better if its neat and organized thats one wire per screw and
definetely tie the 2 bars together...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well I guess if you have more ground wires than you have
ground terminals, then you "have to". It's either that or go to
all the added trouble of adding another ground bus. And I
don't see it having anything to do with neatness and
organization. You can put two wires into one terminal neatly.
Or you could put two wires into two terminals and make it
a mess. If two are allowed, I would do it.

I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and
it only
has one neutral/ground bar. The neutral/ground bar is on the right
side of
the panel.
I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar
on the
left side and, if so, how to do that.
The information about Siemens service panels is located at:
http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/g...ets/US/SIILV/S....
This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20
circuits.
On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral
on 24
circuits and below". So that explains why the panel that I have
only has
one neutral bar installed.
My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the
left
side and, if so, how do I do that? Thanks.
*Drill and tap two 8/32 holes. Mount the ground bar. Run a number 8
or 6
wire from the new ground bar to the existing ground/neutral bar.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
But what he originally asked for was adding a second
"ground/neutral bar" on the other side of the panel. You can add a
ground bar and I don't think he needs to drill any holes, as Siemens
has one for the panel, so it should already have compatible holes.
But I think that's only code compliant as an additional ground bar,
meaning you can't use it for neutrals..... Is that correct? If
he moves some ground wires from the existing neutral/ground
bus to the new bar though he would free up locations for more
neutral
wires.

Also, can't you put more than one ground wire under a screw
in at least some panels? That alone might solve the problem?

If the bar is threaded into the panel, it would suffice as a ground
bar
only. If as John said, you run a #6 or 8 from it to the neutral bar,
it'll work for both.
You can put two grounds under one screw is some panels as well- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But something about that doesn't seem quite right. If you just run
a #6 or #8 wire between the new bar and the old bar, then
you're relying on that wire to potentially carry the max current
rating (100 amps) of the panel when in service, on a regular
basis, as opposed to just a ground fault condition, no?
Which could occur. I would think the conductor between the
two would have to be rated for at least the max current of the
panel, (100 amps).

Isn't there a similar issue also with using an add on "ground" bar
as both a ground bar and neutral? The bar in the Siemens catalog
is listed for use with that panel as a ground bar, but does that
mean that it has the same current rating, etc that a neutral
bar would have? I realize in practice it may actually be the same
bar, but who knows?

well you could run 2 heavy copper lines between the bars....... how
heavy is the neutral line to the existing bar?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think there are two seperate issues/questions here. One is what
minimum things need to be in place from an electrical circuit
theory perspective. And unless I'm missing something, that
says the conductor between the bars better be at least the capacity
of the panel, ie 100 amps.


*The neutral in the main panel is permitted to be smaller than the two hot
wires because it only carries the unbalanced load.



The other is what is technically allowed by code, how the panel and
bar
are UL listed, tested, etc. For example, it's been debated here
whether you
can add a simple mechanical slide lock-out for a generator to
an existing panel when that slide isn't made by that panel
manufacturer,
hasn't been UL listed for use with that panel, etc. That slide just
sits on
top of the panel, doesn't even have direct electrical involvement. It
just prevents two breakers from being "on" at the same time.



*I've never had a problem passing inspection with an interlock kit made by a
third party. I provide a copy of the installation instructions when I
submit the permit application so the inspector knows ahead of time what is
being used and how it is to be installed.



So, thinking along those
lines, we have a bar rated and listed for use with the panel as a
ground bar. The installation instructions only say how to install it
as a ground bar. Is it code compliant to use that for neutrals too?
What's the current rating of that bar? What would an inspector say?

I would think you, being very concerned that anything potentially
not being done fully compliant will come back to bite you in a
lawsuit from a future owner, a denied insurance claim, etc
would agree that there are issues other than what will work
electrically. If he installs it, uses it only for grounds, moves
some
of the existing grounds from the current "neutral/ground bar" over
to it, he can get more neutral connections and I think we all
agree it's 100% code compliant. Using that added ground bar
as a neutral bar, I'm not convinced.


*A phone call to the electrical inspector should resolve that concern.

I would think you, being very concerned that anything potentially
not being done fully compliant will come back to bite you in a
lawsuit from a future owner, a denied insurance claim, etc


you bring up a interesting point.

you sell your home and later something bad happens due to your poor
DIY fix.

Could the new owner sue you? or their insurance company? Is there a
statute of limitations on how long you could be on the hook?

On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 10:33:47 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:


I would think you, being very concerned that anything potentially
not being done fully compliant will come back to bite you in a
lawsuit from a future owner, a denied insurance claim, etc


you bring up a interesting point.

you sell your home and later something bad happens due to your poor
DIY fix.

Could the new owner sue you? or their insurance company? Is there a
statute of limitations on how long you could be on the hook?

MORE haller's insurance insanity. Good grief!

On Apr 27, 6:00*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 10:33:47 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:



I would think you, being very concerned that anything potentially
not being done fully compliant will come back to bite you in a
lawsuit from a future owner, a denied insurance claim, etc

you bring up a interesting point.

you sell your home and later something bad happens due to your poor
DIY fix.

Could the new owner sue you? or their insurance company? Is there a
statute of limitations on how long you could be on the hook?

MORE haller's insurance insanity. *Good grief!

it is a legit question....... i see you dont have a real answer...

On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 16:24:16 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On Apr 27, 6:00*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 10:33:47 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:



I would think you, being very concerned that anything potentially
not being done fully compliant will come back to bite you in a
lawsuit from a future owner, a denied insurance claim, etc

you bring up a interesting point.

you sell your home and later something bad happens due to your poor
DIY fix.

Could the new owner sue you? or their insurance company? Is there a
statute of limitations on how long you could be on the hook?

MORE haller's insurance insanity. *Good grief!

it is a legit question....... i see you dont have a real answer...

Your life is run by your phobia of insurance companies, that's
obvious. You really are a sad sack.

On Apr 27, 7:34*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 16:24:16 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:





On Apr 27, 6:00*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 10:33:47 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

I would think you, being very concerned that anything potentially
not being done fully compliant will come back to bite you in a
lawsuit from a future owner, a denied insurance claim, etc

you bring up a interesting point.

you sell your home and later something bad happens due to your poor
DIY fix.

Could the new owner sue you? or their insurance company? Is there a
statute of limitations on how long you could be on the hook?

MORE haller's insurance insanity. *Good grief!

it is a legit question....... i see you dont have a real answer...

Your life is run by your phobia of insurance companies, that's
obvious. *You really are a sad sack.

i have no phobia over insurance companies a buddy of mine from the 70s
is a state farm agent, so i have a inside surce on some stuff.......

I do wonder how long a new owner can come over a old owner if
something bad happens?

say the old owner installed the wrong type of gas line where it cant
be seen, behind drywall.say clear plastic hose.

4 years later the home explodes when the plastic gas line finally
leaks.....

I havent done anything to cause a problem but have seen lots of stupid
DIY repairs......

On Apr 25, 2:36*pm, bob haller wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:21*pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:









I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it only
has one neutral/ground bar. *The neutral/ground bar is on the right side of
the panel.

I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on the
left side and, if so, how to do that.

The information about Siemens service panels is located at:
http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/g...ets/US/SIILV/S.....

This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20 circuits.
On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on 24
circuits and below". *So that explains why the panel that I have only has
one neutral bar installed.

My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left
side and, if so, how do I do that? *Thanks.

*Drill and tap two 8/32 holes. *Mount the ground bar. *Run a number 8 or 6
wire from the new ground bar to the existing ground/neutral bar.

if the cabinet is too thin to tap but mounted on plywood like it
should be, just drill holes and use wood screws to mount the ground
bar to the cabinet, then heavy copper between the old and new ground
bars...

use wood screws to mount the ground
bar to the cabinet, then heavy copper between the old and new ground
bars...

this hardly seems acceptable...wood screws?

On Apr 26, 9:42*am, "
wrote:
On Apr 25, 10:08*pm, bob haller wrote:









On Apr 25, 9:07*pm, DD_BobK wrote:

On Apr 25, 4:13*pm, "
wrote:

On Apr 25, 4:21*pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:

I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it only
has one neutral/ground bar. *The neutral/ground bar is on the right side of
the panel.

I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on the
left side and, if so, how to do that.

The information about Siemens service panels is located at:
http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/g...ets/US/SIILV/S....

This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20 circuits.
On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on 24
circuits and below". *So that explains why the panel that I have only has
one neutral bar installed.

My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left
side and, if so, how do I do that? *Thanks.

*Drill and tap two 8/32 holes. *Mount the ground bar. *Run a number 8 or 6
wire from the new ground bar to the existing ground/neutral bar.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But what he originally asked for was adding a second
"ground/neutral bar" on the other side of the panel. *You can add a
ground bar and I don't think he needs to drill any holes, as Siemens
has one for the panel, so it should already have compatible holes.
But I think that's only code compliant as an additional ground bar,
meaning you can't use it for neutrals..... *Is that correct? *If
he moves some ground wires from the existing neutral/ground
bus to the new bar though he would free up locations for more neutral
wires.

Also, can't you put more than one ground wire under a screw
in at least some panels? * That alone might solve the problem?

I believe you can double up ground wires but neutral wires must be one
per screw.

Why put 2 under one screw if you dont have to? The panel will look far
better if its neat and organized thats one wire per screw and
definetely tie the 2 bars together...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well I guess if you have more ground wires than you have
ground terminals, then you "have to". *It's either that or go to
all the added trouble of adding another ground bus. *And I
don't see it having anything to do with neatness and
organization. *You can put two wires into one terminal neatly.
Or you could put two wires into two terminals and make it
a mess. *If two are allowed, I would do it.

+1

wrote in message
...
On Apr 25, 7:44 pm, RBM wrote:
On 4/25/2013 7:13 PM, wrote:

On Apr 25, 4:21 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it
only
has one neutral/ground bar. The neutral/ground bar is on the right
side of
the panel.
I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on
the
left side and, if so, how to do that.
The information about Siemens service panels is located at:
http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/g...ets/US/SIILV/S....
This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20
circuits.
On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on
24
circuits and below". So that explains why the panel that I have only
has
one neutral bar installed.
My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left
side and, if so, how do I do that? Thanks.

But what he originally asked for was adding a second
"ground/neutral bar" on the other side of the panel. You can add a
ground bar and I don't think he needs to drill any holes, as Siemens
has one for the panel, so it should already have compatible holes.
But I think that's only code compliant as an additional ground bar,
meaning you can't use it for neutrals..... Is that correct? If
he moves some ground wires from the existing neutral/ground
bus to the new bar though he would free up locations for more neutral
wires.

Also, can't you put more than one ground wire under a screw
in at least some panels? That alone might solve the problem?

If the bar is threaded into the panel, it would suffice as a ground bar
only. If as John said, you run a #6 or 8 from it to the neutral bar,
it'll work for both.
You can put two grounds under one screw is some panels as well- Hide
quoted text -


But something about that doesn't seem quite right. If you just run
a #6 or #8 wire between the new bar and the old bar, then
you're relying on that wire to potentially carry the max current
rating (100 amps) of the panel when in service, on a regular
basis, as opposed to just a ground fault condition, no?
Which could occur. I would think the conductor between the
two would have to be rated for at least the max current of the
panel, (100 amps).

Isn't there a similar issue also with using an add on "ground" bar
as both a ground bar and neutral? The bar in the Siemens catalog
is listed for use with that panel as a ground bar, but does that
mean that it has the same current rating, etc that a neutral
bar would have? I realize in practice it may actually be the same
bar, but who knows?

I think that is an interesting question, and I would like to be able to
figure out the correct answer to that one. Unfortunately, the Siemens panel
that I have only has a neutral bar on one side since it has less than 30
circuits (30 and above have two neutral bars -- one on each side).

I called Siemens technical support on Friday afternoon shortly before 5 PM.
I explained that I want to be able to add a second neutral bar to my
20-circuit Siemens panel and asked if there is a way to do that. I also
explained the option/idea above of adding a ground bar and connecting that
to the neutral bar with an #6 or #8 wire.

The call-taker entered my question into their system and created an email
"ticket number", and then said that a technical representative will get back
to me on Monday. I'll pass on whatever I hear back from them.

On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 20:00:52 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On Apr 27, 7:34*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 16:24:16 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:





On Apr 27, 6:00*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 10:33:47 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

I would think you, being very concerned that anything potentially
not being done fully compliant will come back to bite you in a
lawsuit from a future owner, a denied insurance claim, etc

you bring up a interesting point.

you sell your home and later something bad happens due to your poor
DIY fix.

Could the new owner sue you? or their insurance company? Is there a
statute of limitations on how long you could be on the hook?

MORE haller's insurance insanity. *Good grief!

it is a legit question....... i see you dont have a real answer...

Your life is run by your phobia of insurance companies, that's
obvious. *You really are a sad sack.

i have no phobia over insurance companies a buddy of mine from the 70s
is a state farm agent, so i have a inside surce on some stuff.......

Bull****. You're constantly worrying about insurance and telling
others they can't sneeze without having their insurance canceled, or
worse.

I do wonder how long a new owner can come over a old owner if
something bad happens?

Idiot.

say the old owner installed the wrong type of gas line where it cant
be seen, behind drywall.say clear plastic hose.

Yeah, that's what everyone has been talking about. What a moron.

4 years later the home explodes when the plastic gas line finally
leaks.....

I havent done anything to cause a problem but have seen lots of stupid
DIY repairs......

I'm sure you haven't done jack, or you'd be cowering in the corner
waiting to be sued.

On Apr 27, 11:48*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 20:00:52 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:





On Apr 27, 7:34*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 16:24:16 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On Apr 27, 6:00*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 10:33:47 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

I would think you, being very concerned that anything potentially
not being done fully compliant will come back to bite you in a
lawsuit from a future owner, a denied insurance claim, etc

you bring up a interesting point.

you sell your home and later something bad happens due to your poor
DIY fix.

Could the new owner sue you? or their insurance company? Is there a
statute of limitations on how long you could be on the hook?

MORE haller's insurance insanity. *Good grief!

it is a legit question....... i see you dont have a real answer...

Your life is run by your phobia of insurance companies, that's
obvious. *You really are a sad sack.

i have no phobia over insurance companies a buddy of mine from the 70s
is a state farm agent, so i have a inside surce on some stuff.......

Bull****. *You're constantly worrying about insurance and telling
others they can't sneeze without having their insurance canceled, or
worse.

I do wonder how long a new owner can come over a old owner if
something bad happens?

Idiot.

say the old owner installed the wrong type of gas line where it cant
be seen, behind drywall.say clear plastic hose.

Yeah, that's what everyone has been talking about. *What a moron.

4 years later the home explodes when the plastic gas line finally
leaks.....

I havent done anything to cause a problem but have seen lots of stupid
DIY repairs......

I'm sure you haven't done jack, or you'd be cowering in the corner
waiting to be sued.

my insurance issues.........

Its near impossible to get homeowners insurance on a home with knob
and tube.......

now you can deny that all you want but it doesnt change reality

homeowners insurance these days often send out a inspector before
writing a new policy......

they look for trash under a porch, lack of railings, bad roofs, fuse
boxes, unsafe sidewalks...... all of these and more will have to be
corrected before getting insurance....

I agree with these rules, since everyone wants low preminms, and all
of those can and do boost losses. it might be possible to get a
policy with known hazards, but it might boost premiums
significantly.....

incidently a customer of mine had sidewalks that were uneven. the
slabs were at different levels the customer was a public school. A
student got ill and grandpa was called to take the kid home.

grandpa tripped on the uneven sidewalk and broke his hip. within 2
months he died, cause, the fall.

the school had to pay all the medical bills, pain and suffering, etc
etc. last i heard the settlement offer to grandpas family was half a
million dollars.... paid by the schools liability carrier.

the district replaced all the sidewalks at all the buildings and
repaved parking lots etc. the insurance company required a risk
inspection and repair of all possible hazards to keep their coverage.

now what really caused the accident? the school board insisted on a
budget cut on building maintence to save money....

the board members who voted for that cut were all gone, replaced or
voted out.

sadly and for practical $ reasons there are individuals doing that
today. save money by no maintence...

thats why insurance now inspects homes. with the stormy weather
probably from global warming entire citys are being destroyed.
insurance cant prevent that but can save money on preventable losses

On Apr 27, 7:55*am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and
it only
has one neutral/ground bar. The neutral/ground bar is on the right
side of
the panel.
I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar
on the
left side and, if so, how to do that.
The information about Siemens service panels is located at:
http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/g...ets/US/SIILV/S....
This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20
circuits.
On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral
on 24
circuits and below". So that explains why the panel that I have
only has
one neutral bar installed.
My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the
left
side and, if so, how do I do that? Thanks.
*Drill and tap two 8/32 holes. Mount the ground bar. Run a number 8
or 6
wire from the new ground bar to the existing ground/neutral bar.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
But what he originally asked for was adding a second
"ground/neutral bar" on the other side of the panel. You can add a
ground bar and I don't think he needs to drill any holes, as Siemens
has one for the panel, so it should already have compatible holes..
But I think that's only code compliant as an additional ground bar,
meaning you can't use it for neutrals..... Is that correct? If
he moves some ground wires from the existing neutral/ground
bus to the new bar though he would free up locations for more
neutral
wires.

Also, can't you put more than one ground wire under a screw
in at least some panels? That alone might solve the problem?

If the bar is threaded into the panel, it would suffice as a ground
bar
only. If as John said, you run a #6 or 8 from it to the neutral bar,
it'll work for both.
You can put two grounds under one screw is some panels as well- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But something about that doesn't seem quite right. If you just run
a #6 or #8 wire between the new bar and the old bar, then
you're relying on that wire to potentially carry the max current
rating (100 amps) of the panel when in service, on a regular
basis, as opposed to just a ground fault condition, no?
Which could occur. I would think the conductor between the
two would have to be rated for at least the max current of the
panel, (100 amps).

Isn't there a similar issue also with using an add on "ground" bar
as both a ground bar and neutral? The bar in the Siemens catalog
is listed for use with that panel as a ground bar, but does that
mean that it has the same current rating, etc that a neutral
bar would have? I realize in practice it may actually be the same
bar, but who knows?

well you could run 2 heavy copper lines between the bars....... how
heavy is the neutral line to the existing bar?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think there are two seperate issues/questions here. *One is what
minimum things need to be in place from an electrical circuit
theory perspective. *And unless I'm missing something, that
says the conductor between the bars better be at least the capacity
of the panel, ie 100 amps.

*The neutral in the main panel is permitted to be smaller than the two hot
wires because it only carries the unbalanced load.

But what happens if the unbalanced load happens to be larger
than the conductor? Theoretically, the unbalanced load could
be 100 amps. I agree that is very unlikely, but statistically, it's
possible. Let's say you had some house where 8 resistance
heaters are used. They could just happen to put them into
outlets that are on the same leg..... 12A * 8 = 96A.

Here's another point. An add-on ground bar is designed to be
attached via screws to the panel metal. If you use one of those as
intended, for a ground bus, then under normal conditions, no
current is ever flowing in the panel metal, right? You'd only
have current flow throw the panel itself if there was a ground
fault of some kind. That's how it works with any metal box,
right?

But if you use that add-on ground bar as a neutral bar, then
you do have at least part of the unbalanced current flowing
through the panel metal all the time. Even with a wire connected
between that neutral bar and the other neutral bar, the current
will split with some of it going via the wire, some of it going
via the panel metal. That doesn't seem right to me. I would
think the right way to do it would be for that additional neutral
bar to be installed insulated from the panel so that all the
current has to flow via the wires and not through the panel
metal.

Not saying this is really unsafe if it's done the way you guys
are saying. Just that it seems odd to me that the code is
OK with using the panel metal case as a current carrying
conductor. I can't think of another instance where that is
allowed.

On Apr 27, 7:24*pm, bob haller wrote:
On Apr 27, 6:00*pm, wrote:





On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 10:33:47 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

I would think you, being very concerned that anything potentially
not being done fully compliant will come back to bite you in a
lawsuit from a future owner, a denied insurance claim, etc

you bring up a interesting point.

you sell your home and later something bad happens due to your poor
DIY fix.

Could the new owner sue you?

Of course they could. Anyone can sue anyone for just about
anything. Whether they have a real case, can they prove it,
will they win, how much is it going to cost them in legal fees
to find out, that's an entirely different matter.

If you want to sue because the kitchen tile floor is uneven and it
was clearly uneven when you bought the place, walked
through it, had the opportunity to inspect it, etc, then I
don't see how in any rational court of law you'd win. Of
course if you were selling the place, you wouldn't have
that problem because you'd tell the buyer
that the floor doesn't look quite right to you, they'd say "Gee,
you're
right, we want $4K off for a new one." And you'd both
be happy.

If you find out the foundation for a room that was added on
DIY is sinking because it was built on marshmallows instead
of footers, that it was done by the seller, no building permit,
they didn't disclose it, etc, then you probably have a decent case.




or their insurance company?

Sue their insurance company for a defect on a house they
bought? Per the above, sure they could. But on what basis
could they ever win? What did their insurance company have
to do with some house defect that they later find?



Is there a
statute of limitations on how long you could be on the hook?

I believe the last time you brought up the issue of buyers
coming back to sue a seller for anything and everything that
wasn't disclosed, I
provided a link to the PA real estate disclosure law. Did you read
it?
As I recall, it said that buyers have 2 years to bring a suit.
It also said that just because some housing component, say
a roof or septic system is at, near or beyond it's normal expected
life,
that doesn't mean it's a material defect that has to be disclosed,
provided that component is still functioning OK.

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 05:29:44 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On Apr 27, 11:48*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 20:00:52 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:





On Apr 27, 7:34*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 16:24:16 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On Apr 27, 6:00*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 10:33:47 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

I would think you, being very concerned that anything potentially
not being done fully compliant will come back to bite you in a
lawsuit from a future owner, a denied insurance claim, etc

you bring up a interesting point.

you sell your home and later something bad happens due to your poor
DIY fix.

Could the new owner sue you? or their insurance company? Is there a
statute of limitations on how long you could be on the hook?

MORE haller's insurance insanity. *Good grief!

it is a legit question....... i see you dont have a real answer...

Your life is run by your phobia of insurance companies, that's
obvious. *You really are a sad sack.

i have no phobia over insurance companies a buddy of mine from the 70s
is a state farm agent, so i have a inside surce on some stuff.......

Bull****. *You're constantly worrying about insurance and telling
others they can't sneeze without having their insurance canceled, or
worse.

I do wonder how long a new owner can come over a old owner if
something bad happens?

Idiot.

say the old owner installed the wrong type of gas line where it cant
be seen, behind drywall.say clear plastic hose.

Yeah, that's what everyone has been talking about. *What a moron.

4 years later the home explodes when the plastic gas line finally
leaks.....

I havent done anything to cause a problem but have seen lots of stupid
DIY repairs......

I'm sure you haven't done jack, or you'd be cowering in the corner
waiting to be sued.

my insurance issues.........

Are all in your tiny little head.

On 4/26/2013 7:33 AM, wrote:
On Apr 25, 7:44 pm, RBM wrote:
On 4/25/2013 7:13 PM, wrote:



On Apr 25, 4:21 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it only
has one neutral/ground bar. The neutral/ground bar is on the right side of
the panel.
I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on the
left side and, if so, how to do that.
The information about Siemens service panels is located at:
http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/g...ets/US/SIILV/S....
This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20 circuits.
On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on 24
circuits and below". So that explains why the panel that I have only has
one neutral bar installed.
My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left
side and, if so, how do I do that? Thanks.
*Drill and tap two 8/32 holes. Mount the ground bar. Run a number 8 or 6
wire from the new ground bar to the existing ground/neutral bar.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
But what he originally asked for was adding a second
"ground/neutral bar" on the other side of the panel. You can add a
ground bar and I don't think he needs to drill any holes, as Siemens
has one for the panel, so it should already have compatible holes.
But I think that's only code compliant as an additional ground bar,
meaning you can't use it for neutrals..... Is that correct? If
he moves some ground wires from the existing neutral/ground
bus to the new bar though he would free up locations for more neutral
wires.
Also, can't you put more than one ground wire under a screw
in at least some panels? That alone might solve the problem?
If the bar is threaded into the panel, it would suffice as a ground bar
only. If as John said, you run a #6 or 8 from it to the neutral bar,
it'll work for both.
You can put two grounds under one screw is some panels as well- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
But something about that doesn't seem quite right. If you just run
a #6 or #8 wire between the new bar and the old bar, then
you're relying on that wire to potentially carry the max current
rating (100 amps) of the panel when in service, on a regular
basis, as opposed to just a ground fault condition, no?
Which could occur. I would think the conductor between the
two would have to be rated for at least the max current of the
panel, (100 amps).

Isn't there a similar issue also with using an add on "ground" bar
as both a ground bar and neutral? The bar in the Siemens catalog
is listed for use with that panel as a ground bar, but does that
mean that it has the same current rating, etc that a neutral
bar would have? I realize in practice it may actually be the same
bar, but who knows?

You are correct. A # 6 copper is all that is required to carry the full
neutral load of a 100 amp service, so considering that this is a
supplemental neutral bar, it's never going to carry close to the full
amount.

To be used as a secondary neutral bar as opposed to a ground bar, it
must be connected to the original bar by something more substantial that
the steel of the cabinet

On 4/28/2013 8:29 AM, bob haller wrote:
On Apr 27, 11:48 pm, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 20:00:52 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:





On Apr 27, 7:34 pm, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 16:24:16 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:
On Apr 27, 6:00 pm, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 10:33:47 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:
I would think you, being very concerned that anything potentially
not being done fully compliant will come back to bite you in a
lawsuit from a future owner, a denied insurance claim, etc
you bring up a interesting point.
you sell your home and later something bad happens due to your poor
DIY fix.
Could the new owner sue you? or their insurance company? Is there a
statute of limitations on how long you could be on the hook?
MORE haller's insurance insanity. Good grief!
it is a legit question....... i see you dont have a real answer...
Your life is run by your phobia of insurance companies, that's
obvious. You really are a sad sack.
i have no phobia over insurance companies a buddy of mine from the 70s
is a state farm agent, so i have a inside surce on some stuff.......
Bull****. You're constantly worrying about insurance and telling
others they can't sneeze without having their insurance canceled, or
worse.

I do wonder how long a new owner can come over a old owner if
something bad happens?
Idiot.

say the old owner installed the wrong type of gas line where it cant
be seen, behind drywall.say clear plastic hose.
Yeah, that's what everyone has been talking about. What a moron.

4 years later the home explodes when the plastic gas line finally
leaks.....
I havent done anything to cause a problem but have seen lots of stupid
DIY repairs......
I'm sure you haven't done jack, or you'd be cowering in the corner
waiting to be sued.
my insurance issues.........

Its near impossible to get homeowners insurance on a home with knob
and tube.......

now you can deny that all you want but it doesnt change reality

homeowners insurance these days often send out a inspector before
writing a new policy......

they look for trash under a porch, lack of railings, bad roofs, fuse
boxes, unsafe sidewalks...... all of these and more will have to be
corrected before getting insurance....

I agree with these rules, since everyone wants low preminms, and all
of those can and do boost losses. it might be possible to get a
policy with known hazards, but it might boost premiums
significantly.....

incidently a customer of mine had sidewalks that were uneven. the
slabs were at different levels the customer was a public school. A
student got ill and grandpa was called to take the kid home.

grandpa tripped on the uneven sidewalk and broke his hip. within 2
months he died, cause, the fall.

the school had to pay all the medical bills, pain and suffering, etc
etc. last i heard the settlement offer to grandpas family was half a
million dollars.... paid by the schools liability carrier.

the district replaced all the sidewalks at all the buildings and
repaved parking lots etc. the insurance company required a risk
inspection and repair of all possible hazards to keep their coverage.

now what really caused the accident? the school board insisted on a
budget cut on building maintence to save money....

the board members who voted for that cut were all gone, replaced or
voted out.

sadly and for practical $ reasons there are individuals doing that
today. save money by no maintence...

thats why insurance now inspects homes. with the stormy weather
probably from global warming entire citys are being destroyed.
insurance cant prevent that but can save money on preventable losses
Either you live in an "alternate universe", or these insurance practices
only occur when they go to your house

On Apr 28, 8:49*am, "
wrote:
On Apr 27, 7:55*am, "John Grabowski" wrote:





I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and
it only
has one neutral/ground bar. The neutral/ground bar is on the right
side of
the panel.
I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar
on the
left side and, if so, how to do that.
The information about Siemens service panels is located at:
http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/g...ets/US/SIILV/S....
This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20
circuits.
On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral
on 24
circuits and below". So that explains why the panel that I have
only has
one neutral bar installed.
My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the
left
side and, if so, how do I do that? Thanks.
*Drill and tap two 8/32 holes. Mount the ground bar. Run a number 8
or 6
wire from the new ground bar to the existing ground/neutral bar.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
But what he originally asked for was adding a second
"ground/neutral bar" on the other side of the panel. You can add a
ground bar and I don't think he needs to drill any holes, as Siemens
has one for the panel, so it should already have compatible holes.
But I think that's only code compliant as an additional ground bar,
meaning you can't use it for neutrals..... Is that correct? If
he moves some ground wires from the existing neutral/ground
bus to the new bar though he would free up locations for more
neutral
wires.

Also, can't you put more than one ground wire under a screw
in at least some panels? That alone might solve the problem?

If the bar is threaded into the panel, it would suffice as a ground
bar
only. If as John said, you run a #6 or 8 from it to the neutral bar,
it'll work for both.
You can put two grounds under one screw is some panels as well- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But something about that doesn't seem quite right. If you just run
a #6 or #8 wire between the new bar and the old bar, then
you're relying on that wire to potentially carry the max current
rating (100 amps) of the panel when in service, on a regular
basis, as opposed to just a ground fault condition, no?
Which could occur. I would think the conductor between the
two would have to be rated for at least the max current of the
panel, (100 amps).

Isn't there a similar issue also with using an add on "ground" bar
as both a ground bar and neutral? The bar in the Siemens catalog
is listed for use with that panel as a ground bar, but does that
mean that it has the same current rating, etc that a neutral
bar would have? I realize in practice it may actually be the same
bar, but who knows?

well you could run 2 heavy copper lines between the bars....... how
heavy is the neutral line to the existing bar?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think there are two seperate issues/questions here. *One is what
minimum things need to be in place from an electrical circuit
theory perspective. *And unless I'm missing something, that
says the conductor between the bars better be at least the capacity
of the panel, ie 100 amps.

*The neutral in the main panel is permitted to be smaller than the two hot
wires because it only carries the unbalanced load.

But what happens if the unbalanced load happens to be larger
than the conductor? *Theoretically, the unbalanced load could
be 100 amps. *I agree that is very unlikely, but statistically, it's
possible. * Let's say you had some house where 8 resistance
heaters are used. * They could just happen to put them into
outlets that are on the same leg..... *12A * 8 = 96A.

Here's another point. *An add-on ground bar is designed to be
attached via screws to the panel metal. * If you use one of those as
intended, for a ground bus, then under normal conditions, no
current is ever flowing in the panel metal, right? *You'd only
have current flow throw the panel itself if there was a ground
fault of some kind. *That's how it works with any metal box,
right?

But if you use that add-on ground bar as a neutral bar, then
you do have at least part of the unbalanced current flowing
through the panel metal all the time. *Even with a wire connected
between that neutral bar and the other neutral bar, the current
will split with some of it going via the wire, some of it going
via the panel metal. *That doesn't seem right to me. *I would
think the right way to do it would be for that additional neutral
bar to be installed insulated from the panel so that all the
current has to flow via the wires and not through the panel
metal.

Not saying this is really unsafe if it's done the way you guys
are saying. *Just that it seems odd to me that the code is
OK with using the panel metal case as a current carrying
conductor. *I can't think of another instance where that is
allowed.

well the existing bar is designed to carry current, and since its
connected and actually bonded to the cabinet the cabinet would carry
some current

On Apr 28, 5:51*pm, bob haller wrote:
On Apr 28, 8:49*am, "
wrote:





On Apr 27, 7:55*am, "John Grabowski" wrote:

I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and
it only
has one neutral/ground bar. The neutral/ground bar is on the right
side of
the panel.
I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar
on the
left side and, if so, how to do that.
The information about Siemens service panels is located at:
http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/g...ets/US/SIILV/S....
This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20
circuits.
On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral
on 24
circuits and below". So that explains why the panel that I have
only has
one neutral bar installed.
My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the
left
side and, if so, how do I do that? Thanks.
*Drill and tap two 8/32 holes. Mount the ground bar. Run a number 8
or 6
wire from the new ground bar to the existing ground/neutral bar.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
But what he originally asked for was adding a second
"ground/neutral bar" on the other side of the panel. You can add a
ground bar and I don't think he needs to drill any holes, as Siemens
has one for the panel, so it should already have compatible holes.
But I think that's only code compliant as an additional ground bar,
meaning you can't use it for neutrals..... Is that correct? If
he moves some ground wires from the existing neutral/ground
bus to the new bar though he would free up locations for more
neutral
wires.

Also, can't you put more than one ground wire under a screw
in at least some panels? That alone might solve the problem?

If the bar is threaded into the panel, it would suffice as a ground
bar
only. If as John said, you run a #6 or 8 from it to the neutral bar,
it'll work for both.
You can put two grounds under one screw is some panels as well- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But something about that doesn't seem quite right. If you just run
a #6 or #8 wire between the new bar and the old bar, then
you're relying on that wire to potentially carry the max current
rating (100 amps) of the panel when in service, on a regular
basis, as opposed to just a ground fault condition, no?
Which could occur. I would think the conductor between the
two would have to be rated for at least the max current of the
panel, (100 amps).

Isn't there a similar issue also with using an add on "ground" bar
as both a ground bar and neutral? The bar in the Siemens catalog
is listed for use with that panel as a ground bar, but does that
mean that it has the same current rating, etc that a neutral
bar would have? I realize in practice it may actually be the same
bar, but who knows?

well you could run 2 heavy copper lines between the bars....... how
heavy is the neutral line to the existing bar?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think there are two seperate issues/questions here. *One is what
minimum things need to be in place from an electrical circuit
theory perspective. *And unless I'm missing something, that
says the conductor between the bars better be at least the capacity
of the panel, ie 100 amps.

*The neutral in the main panel is permitted to be smaller than the two hot
wires because it only carries the unbalanced load.

But what happens if the unbalanced load happens to be larger
than the conductor? *Theoretically, the unbalanced load could
be 100 amps. *I agree that is very unlikely, but statistically, it's
possible. * Let's say you had some house where 8 resistance
heaters are used. * They could just happen to put them into
outlets that are on the same leg..... *12A * 8 = 96A.

Here's another point. *An add-on ground bar is designed to be
attached via screws to the panel metal. * If you use one of those as
intended, for a ground bus, then under normal conditions, no
current is ever flowing in the panel metal, right? *You'd only
have current flow throw the panel itself if there was a ground
fault of some kind. *That's how it works with any metal box,
right?

But if you use that add-on ground bar as a neutral bar, then
you do have at least part of the unbalanced current flowing
through the panel metal all the time. *Even with a wire connected
between that neutral bar and the other neutral bar, the current
will split with some of it going via the wire, some of it going
via the panel metal. *That doesn't seem right to me. *I would
think the right way to do it would be for that additional neutral
bar to be installed insulated from the panel so that all the
current has to flow via the wires and not through the panel
metal.

Not saying this is really unsafe if it's done the way you guys
are saying. *Just that it seems odd to me that the code is
OK with using the panel metal case as a current carrying
conductor. *I can't think of another instance where that is
allowed.

well the existing bar is designed to carry current, and since its
connected and actually bonded to the cabinet the cabinet would carry
some current- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

No it would not, because the panel metal is not in the conductive
path of the current. With the existing neutral bar, current flows
from
the neutral on each circuit into the neutral bar and to the service
neutral which is directly connected to the existing neutral bar.
There is no alternate route in the panel metal for current to go.

Now let's say you add a ground bar on the other side of the
panel, connect it back to the existing neutral/ground bar, and
use it as a neutral. In that case you have two paths for current
from that additional neutral to go to get back to the service
neutral. One path is via the wire connecting the two. The other
is via the panel metal. That second route didn't exist until
you created it.

Again, not saying this is the worst thing in the world, or that it's
inherently unsafe, or that an inspector is going to fail it.
I just think it's a curious situation and wonder
about the code aspect of it because you're now using the panel
metal as a current carrying conductor. That just doesn't seem
right. If you installed that additional
neutral bar as an insulated one, then you would not have current
flowing in the panel metal, only the wire connecting it to the
original neutral.

On Apr 28, 11:41*am, RBM wrote:
On 4/26/2013 7:33 AM, wrote:





On Apr 25, 7:44 pm, RBM wrote:
On 4/25/2013 7:13 PM, wrote:

On Apr 25, 4:21 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it only
has one neutral/ground bar. *The neutral/ground bar is on the right side of
the panel.
I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on the
left side and, if so, how to do that.
The information about Siemens service panels is located at:
http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/g...ets/US/SIILV/S....
This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20 circuits.
On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on 24
circuits and below". *So that explains why the panel that I have only has
one neutral bar installed.
My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left
side and, if so, how do I do that? *Thanks.
*Drill and tap two 8/32 holes. *Mount the ground bar. *Run a number 8 or 6
wire from the new ground bar to the existing ground/neutral bar.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
But what he originally asked for was adding a second
"ground/neutral bar" on the other side of the panel. *You can add a
ground bar and I don't think he needs to drill any holes, as Siemens
has one for the panel, so it should already have compatible holes.
But I think that's only code compliant as an additional ground bar,
meaning you can't use it for neutrals..... *Is that correct? *If
he moves some ground wires from the existing neutral/ground
bus to the new bar though he would free up locations for more neutral
wires.
Also, can't you put more than one ground wire under a screw
in at least some panels? * That alone might solve the problem?
If the bar is threaded into the panel, it would suffice as a ground bar
only. If as John said, you run a #6 or 8 from it to the neutral bar,
it'll work for both.
You can put two grounds under one screw is some panels as well- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
But something about that doesn't seem quite right. *If you just run
a #6 or #8 wire between the new bar and the old bar, then
you're relying on that wire to potentially carry the max current
rating (100 amps) of the panel when in service, on a regular
basis, as opposed to just a ground fault condition, no?
Which could occur. *I would think the conductor between the
two would have to be rated for at least the max current of the
panel, (100 amps).

* Isn't there a similar issue also with using an add on "ground" bar
as both a ground bar and neutral? * The bar in the Siemens catalog
is listed for use with that panel as a ground bar, but does that
mean that it has the same current rating, etc that a neutral
bar would have? * I realize in practice it may actually be the same
bar, but who knows?

You are correct. A # 6 copper is all that is required to carry the full
neutral load of a 100 amp service, so considering that this is a
supplemental neutral bar, it's never going to carry close to the full
amount.

I still don't get how a #6 can be used to carry the full neutral load
of a 100 amp service. Worse case, the full neutral load is 100 amps.
You can't use #6 to connect the hots on a 100 amp sub-panel, can you?

I agree the "chances" that the neutral is ever going to see the
full 100 amps is small, because it's only the unbalanced portion.
With 120V randomly assigned to one hot or the other, they are
going to tend to cancel out and the neutral current will be small.
But it is possible to put the full 100 amps on the neutral
if you managed to put a bunch of large 120V
loads all on the same hot leg. Like plugging in say 8 resistance
heaters into 8 circuits that just happen to be all on the same
hot leg. I guess maybe the answer is that even if you put
100 amps through a #6 it's not the end of the world, ie it's
not going to fail or get hot enough to start a fire, etc.




To be used as a secondary neutral bar as opposed to a ground bar, it
must be connected to the original bar by something more substantial that
the steel of the cabinet- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 05:46:36 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Apr 28, 11:41*am, RBM wrote:
On 4/26/2013 7:33 AM, wrote:





On Apr 25, 7:44 pm, RBM wrote:
On 4/25/2013 7:13 PM, wrote:

On Apr 25, 4:21 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it only
has one neutral/ground bar. *The neutral/ground bar is on the right side of
the panel.
I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on the
left side and, if so, how to do that.
The information about Siemens service panels is located at:
http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/g...ets/US/SIILV/S....
This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20 circuits.
On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on 24
circuits and below". *So that explains why the panel that I have only has
one neutral bar installed.
My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left
side and, if so, how do I do that? *Thanks.
*Drill and tap two 8/32 holes. *Mount the ground bar. *Run a number 8 or 6
wire from the new ground bar to the existing ground/neutral bar.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
But what he originally asked for was adding a second
"ground/neutral bar" on the other side of the panel. *You can add a
ground bar and I don't think he needs to drill any holes, as Siemens
has one for the panel, so it should already have compatible holes.
But I think that's only code compliant as an additional ground bar,
meaning you can't use it for neutrals..... *Is that correct? *If
he moves some ground wires from the existing neutral/ground
bus to the new bar though he would free up locations for more neutral
wires.
Also, can't you put more than one ground wire under a screw
in at least some panels? * That alone might solve the problem?
If the bar is threaded into the panel, it would suffice as a ground bar
only. If as John said, you run a #6 or 8 from it to the neutral bar,
it'll work for both.
You can put two grounds under one screw is some panels as well- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
But something about that doesn't seem quite right. *If you just run
a #6 or #8 wire between the new bar and the old bar, then
you're relying on that wire to potentially carry the max current
rating (100 amps) of the panel when in service, on a regular
basis, as opposed to just a ground fault condition, no?
Which could occur. *I would think the conductor between the
two would have to be rated for at least the max current of the
panel, (100 amps).

* Isn't there a similar issue also with using an add on "ground" bar
as both a ground bar and neutral? * The bar in the Siemens catalog
is listed for use with that panel as a ground bar, but does that
mean that it has the same current rating, etc that a neutral
bar would have? * I realize in practice it may actually be the same
bar, but who knows?

You are correct. A # 6 copper is all that is required to carry the full
neutral load of a 100 amp service, so considering that this is a
supplemental neutral bar, it's never going to carry close to the full
amount.

I still don't get how a #6 can be used to carry the full neutral load
of a 100 amp service. Worse case, the full neutral load is 100 amps.
You can't use #6 to connect the hots on a 100 amp sub-panel, can you?

There aren't the same insulation temperature issues with bare copper,
clamped to the box on both ends (heat sink), inside a large enclosure
(instead of threading through insulation).

On 4/29/2013 8:46 AM, wrote:
On Apr 28, 11:41 am, RBM wrote:
On 4/26/2013 7:33 AM, wrote:





On Apr 25, 7:44 pm, RBM wrote:
On 4/25/2013 7:13 PM, wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:21 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it only
has one neutral/ground bar. The neutral/ground bar is on the right side of
the panel.
I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on the
left side and, if so, how to do that.
The information about Siemens service panels is located at:
http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/g...ets/US/SIILV/S....
This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20 circuits.
On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on 24
circuits and below". So that explains why the panel that I have only has
one neutral bar installed.
My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left
side and, if so, how do I do that? Thanks.
*Drill and tap two 8/32 holes. Mount the ground bar. Run a number 8 or 6
wire from the new ground bar to the existing ground/neutral bar.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
But what he originally asked for was adding a second
"ground/neutral bar" on the other side of the panel. You can add a
ground bar and I don't think he needs to drill any holes, as Siemens
has one for the panel, so it should already have compatible holes.
But I think that's only code compliant as an additional ground bar,
meaning you can't use it for neutrals..... Is that correct? If
he moves some ground wires from the existing neutral/ground
bus to the new bar though he would free up locations for more neutral
wires.
Also, can't you put more than one ground wire under a screw
in at least some panels? That alone might solve the problem?
If the bar is threaded into the panel, it would suffice as a ground bar
only. If as John said, you run a #6 or 8 from it to the neutral bar,
it'll work for both.
You can put two grounds under one screw is some panels as well- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
But something about that doesn't seem quite right. If you just run
a #6 or #8 wire between the new bar and the old bar, then
you're relying on that wire to potentially carry the max current
rating (100 amps) of the panel when in service, on a regular
basis, as opposed to just a ground fault condition, no?
Which could occur. I would think the conductor between the
two would have to be rated for at least the max current of the
panel, (100 amps).
Isn't there a similar issue also with using an add on "ground" bar
as both a ground bar and neutral? The bar in the Siemens catalog
is listed for use with that panel as a ground bar, but does that
mean that it has the same current rating, etc that a neutral
bar would have? I realize in practice it may actually be the same
bar, but who knows?
You are correct. A # 6 copper is all that is required to carry the full
neutral load of a 100 amp service, so considering that this is a
supplemental neutral bar, it's never going to carry close to the full
amount.
I still don't get how a #6 can be used to carry the full neutral load
of a 100 amp service. Worse case, the full neutral load is 100 amps.
You can't use #6 to connect the hots on a 100 amp sub-panel, can you?

I agree the "chances" that the neutral is ever going to see the
full 100 amps is small, because it's only the unbalanced portion.
With 120V randomly assigned to one hot or the other, they are
going to tend to cancel out and the neutral current will be small.
But it is possible to put the full 100 amps on the neutral
if you managed to put a bunch of large 120V
loads all on the same hot leg. Like plugging in say 8 resistance
heaters into 8 circuits that just happen to be all on the same
hot leg. I guess maybe the answer is that even if you put
100 amps through a #6 it's not the end of the world, ie it's
not going to fail or get hot enough to start a fire, etc.

Residential services are treated differently than feeders, so they allow the smaller size conductors

TomR wrote:
wrote in message

But something about that doesn't seem quite right. If you just run
a #6 or #8 wire between the new bar and the old bar, then
you're relying on that wire to potentially carry the max current
rating (100 amps) of the panel when in service, on a regular
basis, as opposed to just a ground fault condition, no?
Which could occur. I would think the conductor between the
two would have to be rated for at least the max current of the
panel, (100 amps).

Isn't there a similar issue also with using an add on "ground" bar
as both a ground bar and neutral? The bar in the Siemens catalog
is listed for use with that panel as a ground bar, but does that
mean that it has the same current rating, etc that a neutral
bar would have? I realize in practice it may actually be the same
bar, but who knows?

I think that is an interesting question, and I would like to be able
to figure out the correct answer to that one. Unfortunately, the
Siemens panel that I have only has a neutral bar on one side since it
has less than 30 circuits (30 and above have two neutral bars -- one
on each side).
I called Siemens technical support on Friday afternoon shortly before
5 PM. I explained that I want to be able to add a second neutral bar
to my 20-circuit Siemens panel and asked if there is a way to do
that. I also explained the option/idea above of adding a ground bar
and connecting that to the neutral bar with an #6 or #8 wire.

The call-taker entered my question into their system and created an
email "ticket number", and then said that a technical representative
will get back to me on Monday. I'll pass on whatever I hear back
from them.

Just to follow up . . , I still don't have a definite answer from Siemens on
this question.

Here is what I wrote to Siemens:

"My question is in regard to the cat# S2020B1100 Main Breaker Load Center.
It comes with only one neutral bar (on the right side). I would like to add
a second neutral bar on the left side of the panel.

Is there a way for me to do that?

It has been suggested to me that I could possibly do this by adding a
Siemens ground bar on the left side and then connecting a #6 or #8 jumper
wire from the new ground bar to the original neutral bar, thus making them
both useable as neutral/ground bars.

Is that correct, or is there a better way to add a neutral bar on the left
side?"

And, this is what they wrote back yesterday:

"I am checking to see if there is an offering for this. I will advise."

My guess is that they are going to say that there is no option to add a
second neutral bar to their cat# S2020B1100 Main Breaker Load Center. But,
that I can add a ground bar to the panel.

I doubt that they would want to get into giving out advice on how to create
or wire a second neutral bar since that model panel does not come with a
second neutral bar.

Also, I went to Home Depot and I looked at the box etc. for the same model
Siemens Main Breaker Load Center, and it specifically says, "Ground bar not
included". I think I remember the instructions inside showing how to add a
ground bar (I'm not sure). And, Home Depot does sell the ground bar and
shows how to install it as a ground bar.

I added a bar to a existing cabinet once. The added bar and existing
bar both had spots for 12 gauge or smaller wire.

Plus each bar had significantly larger spots for heavy conductors.
perhaps a electric stove or something like it

So added 2 copper heavy tie lines between the old and new bar,
figuring that would never cause a problem plus the bar was bonded to
the cabinet

I had to get middle states to reinspect the cabinet for home sale, the
inspector complimented me on my good job........

the existing bar had issues many of the screws were like welded on
place, they must of been overtightened at one time and the heads would
break off when loosened. i had ven tried heating some. the quick
project took all day

On 4/29/2013 10:02 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 05:46:36 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Apr 28, 11:41 am, wrote:
On 4/26/2013 7:33 AM, wrote:





On Apr 25, 7:44 pm, wrote:
On 4/25/2013 7:13 PM, wrote:

On Apr 25, 4:21 pm, "John wrote:
I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it only
has one neutral/ground bar. The neutral/ground bar is on the right side of
the panel.
I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on the
left side and, if so, how to do that.
The information about Siemens service panels is located at:
http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/g...ets/US/SIILV/S....
This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20 circuits.
On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on 24
circuits and below". So that explains why the panel that I have only has
one neutral bar installed.
My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left
side and, if so, how do I do that? Thanks.
*Drill and tap two 8/32 holes. Mount the ground bar. Run a number 8 or 6
wire from the new ground bar to the existing ground/neutral bar.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
But what he originally asked for was adding a second
"ground/neutral bar" on the other side of the panel. You can add a
ground bar and I don't think he needs to drill any holes, as Siemens
has one for the panel, so it should already have compatible holes.
But I think that's only code compliant as an additional ground bar,
meaning you can't use it for neutrals..... Is that correct? If
he moves some ground wires from the existing neutral/ground
bus to the new bar though he would free up locations for more neutral
wires.
Also, can't you put more than one ground wire under a screw
in at least some panels? That alone might solve the problem?
If the bar is threaded into the panel, it would suffice as a ground bar
only. If as John said, you run a #6 or 8 from it to the neutral bar,
it'll work for both.
You can put two grounds under one screw is some panels as well- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
But something about that doesn't seem quite right. If you just run
a #6 or #8 wire between the new bar and the old bar, then
you're relying on that wire to potentially carry the max current
rating (100 amps) of the panel when in service, on a regular
basis, as opposed to just a ground fault condition, no?
Which could occur. I would think the conductor between the
two would have to be rated for at least the max current of the
panel, (100 amps).

Isn't there a similar issue also with using an add on "ground" bar
as both a ground bar and neutral? The bar in the Siemens catalog
is listed for use with that panel as a ground bar, but does that
mean that it has the same current rating, etc that a neutral
bar would have? I realize in practice it may actually be the same
bar, but who knows?

You are correct. A # 6 copper is all that is required to carry the full
neutral load of a 100 amp service, so considering that this is a
supplemental neutral bar, it's never going to carry close to the full
amount.

I still don't get how a #6 can be used to carry the full neutral load
of a 100 amp service. Worse case, the full neutral load is 100 amps.
You can't use #6 to connect the hots on a 100 amp sub-panel, can you?

For residential, you can use #4 if the service is 100A. This is based
on "diversity".

You are real unlikely to have a bar total load connected to one leg that
is a problem with #6, and there is also "diversity". But, as you say,
it is possible. A person could be a little careful about what is connected.

I would rather use a ground bar as a ground bar unless there is a good
reason to have to land neutrals on it.


There aren't the same insulation temperature issues with bare copper,
clamped to the box on both ends (heat sink), inside a large enclosure
(instead of threading through insulation).


The wire is connected to the neutral bar and the ground bar.

There are limits to the wire amp rating based on the connections to the
wire. Unless the connections are rated for a higher temperature, in
general for 100A circuits or less the wire can only use the amp rating
for 60 degree C insulation. (Breakers may, for example, be marked for
75 degree C wire.) (110.14-C)

On Apr 30, 10:42*am, bud-- wrote:
On 4/29/2013 10:02 AM, wrote:





On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 05:46:36 -0700 (PDT), "
*wrote:

On Apr 28, 11:41 am, *wrote:
On 4/26/2013 7:33 AM, wrote:

On Apr 25, 7:44 pm, *wrote:
On 4/25/2013 7:13 PM, wrote:

On Apr 25, 4:21 pm, "John *wrote:
I have a Siemens 100-amp main panel (Catalog #: S2020B1100), and it only
has one neutral/ground bar. *The neutral/ground bar is on the right side of
the panel.
I am trying to figure out if I can add another neutral/ground bar on the
left side and, if so, how to do that.
The information about Siemens service panels is located at:
http://www.hqs.sbt.siemens.com/gip/g...ets/US/SIILV/S....
This panel is a Siemens "ES" Series Load Center, and it has 20 circuits.
On page 3 of the above online guide it says, "Single sided neutral on 24
circuits and below". *So that explains why the panel that I have only has
one neutral bar installed.
My question again is, can I add another neutral/ground bar on the left
side and, if so, how do I do that? *Thanks.
*Drill and tap two 8/32 holes. *Mount the ground bar. *Run a number 8 or 6
wire from the new ground bar to the existing ground/neutral bar.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
But what he originally asked for was adding a second
"ground/neutral bar" on the other side of the panel. *You can add a
ground bar and I don't think he needs to drill any holes, as Siemens
has one for the panel, so it should already have compatible holes.
But I think that's only code compliant as an additional ground bar,
meaning you can't use it for neutrals..... *Is that correct? *If
he moves some ground wires from the existing neutral/ground
bus to the new bar though he would free up locations for more neutral
wires.
Also, can't you put more than one ground wire under a screw
in at least some panels? * That alone might solve the problem?
If the bar is threaded into the panel, it would suffice as a ground bar
only. If as John said, you run a #6 or 8 from it to the neutral bar,
it'll work for both.
You can put two grounds under one screw is some panels as well- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
But something about that doesn't seem quite right. *If you just run
a #6 or #8 wire between the new bar and the old bar, then
you're relying on that wire to potentially carry the max current
rating (100 amps) of the panel when in service, on a regular
basis, as opposed to just a ground fault condition, no?
Which could occur. *I would think the conductor between the
two would have to be rated for at least the max current of the
panel, (100 amps).

* *Isn't there a similar issue also with using an add on "ground" bar
as both a ground bar and neutral? * The bar in the Siemens catalog
is listed for use with that panel as a ground bar, but does that
mean that it has the same current rating, etc that a neutral
bar would have? * I realize in practice it may actually be the same
bar, but who knows?

You are correct. A # 6 copper is all that is required to carry the full
neutral load of a 100 amp service, so considering that this is a
supplemental neutral bar, it's never going to carry close to the full
amount.

I still don't get how a #6 can be used to carry the full neutral load
of a 100 amp service. *Worse case, the full neutral load is 100 amps..
You can't use #6 to connect the hots on a 100 amp sub-panel, can you?

For residential, you can use #4 if the service is 100A. *This is based
on "diversity".

Which I'm sure you'd agree is an interesting concept. By diversity
I assume they mean that the statistical probability of someone
putting 100A of load all on one leg is low. I think we all agree,
it's
low, but it's not zero.



You are real unlikely to have a bar total load connected to one leg that
is a problem with #6, and there is also "diversity". *But, as you say,
it is possible. A person could be a little careful about what is connected.


Which is cool if it's a fixed installation of some known equipment.
But it could be a house where someone could plug in a bunch of
resistance heaters and have them by chance wind up on the
same leg.



I would rather use a ground bar as a ground bar unless there is a good
reason to have to land neutrals on it.



I agree. That was my first suggestion and everyone agrees
it's 100% kosher. Use the new ground bar
for grounds, move some existing grounds from the neutral/ground
bar over to it, thereby freeing up more neutrals.

What are your thoughts about what I pointed out about
current flow through the panel itself? If you put a ground bar
on the other side of the panel, it's bonded to the panel.
Even if you connect it with a heavy wire back to the
original neutral, you still will have current dividing, with
some of it going through the panel metal. I would think the
better option would be to install an insulated neutral bar.