I am re-wiring a friends basement and he has a Westinghouse 150A panel
with 30 breakers. I ran out of terminals on the ground/neutral bars,
even after doubling up on some ground wires of new circuits I ran. So
I purchased a grounding buss bar from Home Depot. My question is that
the existing mounting holes on this buss bar do not line up with the
pre-drilled holes in the panel, so I need to make at least one new
one. Since the panel is directly behind plywood, is it possible to
just use a large self-tapping screw and screw through the bussbar,
through the panel, and through the pywood? The other mounting hole I
would use the threaded screw. Also I assume I need to use at least a
#6 wire to link the new buss bar with the existing buss bar.

That would take car of the basement for now, but looking down the road
if other circuits needed to be added for another reno, is it possible
to add a sub-panel to the main panel? I thought about changing out the
panel to a 200 amp, but I don't think it is necessary, this is a house
that uses and gas stove/dryer/water heater. Plus the fact the outside
meter pan would need to be changed. The existing panel is maybe 20-25
years old, I don't know why they put in 150A instead of 200A.

Why can only gnd wires be put on the new buss bar and not the neutrals?

On Mar 25, 10:30*am, Mikepier wrote:
Why can only gnd wires be put on the new buss bar and not the neutrals?

I added a bar and put both grounds and neutrals, it passed middle
group inspection and I too used a screw on one end into the plywood...

on the panel itself when home resale time comes you will regret having
a sub panel and pieced together main service.

the 150 amp panel may be connected to a 200 amp meter can and service
drop.......

On 3/25/2013 6:37 AM, Mikepier wrote:
I am re-wiring a friends basement and he has a Westinghouse 150A panel
with 30 breakers. I ran out of terminals on the ground/neutral bars,
even after doubling up on some ground wires of new circuits I ran. So
I purchased a grounding buss bar from Home Depot. My question is that
the existing mounting holes on this buss bar do not line up with the
pre-drilled holes in the panel, so I need to make at least one new
one. Since the panel is directly behind plywood, is it possible to
just use a large self-tapping screw and screw through the bussbar,
through the panel, and through the pywood? The other mounting hole I
would use the threaded screw. Also I assume I need to use at least a
#6 wire to link the new buss bar with the existing buss bar.

The proper way to do it is to use a ground bar that was tested for use
in the panel and will fit the hole pattern. That ground bar is
identified on the label for the panel.

(Only ground wires can be attached to the new ground bar.)


That would take car of the basement for now, but looking down the road
if other circuits needed to be added for another reno, is it possible
to add a sub-panel to the main panel?

Sure.

I thought about changing out the
panel to a 200 amp, but I don't think it is necessary, this is a house
that uses and gas stove/dryer/water heater. Plus the fact the outside
meter pan would need to be changed. The existing panel is maybe 20-25
years old, I don't know why they put in 150A instead of 200A.

Maybe because there is a gas stove/dryer/water heater.

On Mar 25, 10:36*am, bob haller wrote:
On Mar 25, 10:30*am, Mikepier wrote:

Why can only gnd wires be put on the new buss bar and not the neutrals?

I added a bar and put both grounds and neutrals, it passed middle
group inspection and I too used a screw on one end into the plywood...

on the panel itself when home resale time comes you will regret having
a sub panel and pieced together main service.

Why would that be? As long as it's done to code, nothing
I know of that's wrong with a subpanel. And the house has
gas for dryer, stove, HW, so 150 amps doesn't seem low.
However, if the current panel requires adding bus bars, maybe
it's time to just add the new subpanel now.



the 150 amp panel may be connected to a 200 amp meter can and service
drop.......

Could be and worth checking. But unless the house really
needs 200, it still seems easier adding a subpanel instead of
ripping out the whole existing one.

On Mar 25, 11:34*am, wrote:
On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 07:30:16 -0700 (PDT), Mikepier

wrote:
Why can only gnd wires be put on the new buss bar and not the neutrals?

The bus bar you are adding is using the enclosure as a current path.
OK for grounding but not for a circuit current path.

As long as the screw you use is threaded into the metal it is OK but
it has to be a thread forming machine screw, not a sheet metal screw.
You should be using the bus bar intended for your panel.

When I added a bus bar I ran the heaviest copper wire that would fit
the new bus bar between the old and new one, Sure the bus bar was
screwed directly to the panel but the direct connection was the heavy
copper wire. And the middle group inspector said I did a good job

on the panel itself when home resale time comes you will regret having
a sub panel and pieced together main service.

Why would that be? *As long as it's done to code, nothing
I know of that's wrong with a subpanel. *And the house has
gas for dryer, stove, HW, so 150 amps doesn't seem low.
However, if the current panel requires adding bus bars, maybe
it's time to just add the new subpanel now.



the 150 amp panel may be connected to a 200 amp meter can and service
drop.......

Could be and worth checking. *But unless the house really
needs 200, it still seems easier adding a subpanel instead of
ripping out the whole existing one.

home buyers look at sub panels as a quick patch fix, and may try to
demand the cost of a upgrade off the sales price.

in any case it just adds more hassle at sale time you will regret
it......

Like replacng just some shingles, buyer will demand a new roof....

The cost difference between a sub panel and a main panel isnt a lot,
and the main is already 25 years old, thats what the OP said

On Mar 25, 11:34*am, wrote:
On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 07:30:16 -0700 (PDT), Mikepier

wrote:
Why can only gnd wires be put on the new buss bar and not the neutrals?

The bus bar you are adding is using the enclosure as a current path.
OK for grounding but not for a circuit current path.

As long as the screw you use is threaded into the metal it is OK but
it has to be a thread forming machine screw, not a sheet metal screw.
You should be using the bus bar intended for your panel.

The existing buss bars have both the grounds and neutrals going into
it now, so I'm a little confused. As long as I install the new buss
bar to the enclosure and bond it to the existing one with #6 wire, why
can't the neutrals be connected to it?

On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 09:18:33 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:


on the panel itself when home resale time comes you will regret having
a sub panel and pieced together main service.

Why would that be? *As long as it's done to code, nothing
I know of that's wrong with a subpanel. *And the house has
gas for dryer, stove, HW, so 150 amps doesn't seem low.
However, if the current panel requires adding bus bars, maybe
it's time to just add the new subpanel now.



the 150 amp panel may be connected to a 200 amp meter can and service
drop.......

Could be and worth checking. *But unless the house really
needs 200, it still seems easier adding a subpanel instead of
ripping out the whole existing one.

home buyers look at sub panels as a quick patch fix, and may try to
demand the cost of a upgrade off the sales price.

Tell them "NO". I've never had a buyer care about a sub panel,
though. If their inspection report didn't make it an issue, they
didn't either.

in any case it just adds more hassle at sale time you will regret
it......

If you're a wus, perhaps.

Like replacng just some shingles, buyer will demand a new roof....

The cost difference between a sub panel and a main panel isnt a lot,
and the main is already 25 years old, thats what the OP said

It's grief that isn't needed.

On Mar 25, 7:25*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 09:18:33 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:







on the panel itself when home resale time comes you will regret having
a sub panel and pieced together main service.

Why would that be? *As long as it's done to code, nothing
I know of that's wrong with a subpanel. *And the house has
gas for dryer, stove, HW, so 150 amps doesn't seem low.
However, if the current panel requires adding bus bars, maybe
it's time to just add the new subpanel now.

the 150 amp panel may be connected to a 200 amp meter can and service
drop.......

Could be and worth checking. *But unless the house really
needs 200, it still seems easier adding a subpanel instead of
ripping out the whole existing one.

home buyers look at sub panels as a quick patch fix, and may try to
demand the cost of a upgrade off the sales price.

Tell them "NO". *I've never had a buyer care about a sub panel,
though. *If their inspection report didn't make it an issue, they
didn't either.

In the typical contract, it would have to be an inspection
report issue. If the inspector doesn't raise an issue with
it, the buyer can't just say I want a new panel instead of
the sub-panel that is there. The contract says they've
agreed to buy the house, subject to any items that are
identified by the home inspector.






in any case it just adds more hassle at sale time you will regret
it......

If you're a wus, perhaps.

But the other problem is if they bring anything up like
that, just telling them no, doesn't
necessarily work either. If you need to sell the house,
and you have a reasonable offer, you don't want to lose
the sale in this market over $1000. Which is why some
buyers can try to use anything to bitch for a price
reduction. So Bob has a point, but I agree most buyers
won't even know what a sub-panel is.

On Mar 25, 8:39*pm, "
wrote:
On Mar 25, 7:25*pm, wrote:





On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 09:18:33 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

on the panel itself when home resale time comes you will regret having
a sub panel and pieced together main service.

Why would that be? *As long as it's done to code, nothing
I know of that's wrong with a subpanel. *And the house has
gas for dryer, stove, HW, so 150 amps doesn't seem low.
However, if the current panel requires adding bus bars, maybe
it's time to just add the new subpanel now.

the 150 amp panel may be connected to a 200 amp meter can and service
drop.......

Could be and worth checking. *But unless the house really
needs 200, it still seems easier adding a subpanel instead of
ripping out the whole existing one.

home buyers look at sub panels as a quick patch fix, and may try to
demand the cost of a upgrade off the sales price.

Tell them "NO". *I've never had a buyer care about a sub panel,
though. *If their inspection report didn't make it an issue, they
didn't either.

In the typical contract, it would have to be an inspection
report issue. *If the inspector doesn't raise an issue with
it, the buyer can't just say I want a new panel instead of
the sub-panel that is there. *The contract says they've
agreed to buy the house, subject to any items that are
identified by the home inspector.



in any case it just adds more hassle at sale time you will regret
it......

If you're a wus, perhaps.

But the other problem is if they bring anything up like
that, just telling them no, doesn't
necessarily work either. *If you need to sell the house,
and you have a reasonable offer, you don't want to lose
the sale in this market over $1000. *Which is why some
buyers can try to use anything to bitch for a price
reduction. *So Bob has a point, but I agree most buyers
won't even know what a sub-panel is.

Most people are getting home inspectors, and with a 25 year old panel
with a sub panel the inspector
could ask lots of nosey questions. The entire service is old and
obsolete, the panel maker is no longer in the panel business, 150 amp
main with all these extra breakers is bad idea, etc etc etc,

all the things you dont want when selling a home

On 3/25/2013 8:39 PM, wrote:
On Mar 25, 7:25 pm, wrote:
On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 09:18:33 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:







on the panel itself when home resale time comes you will regret having
a sub panel and pieced together main service.

Why would that be? As long as it's done to code, nothing
I know of that's wrong with a subpanel. And the house has
gas for dryer, stove, HW, so 150 amps doesn't seem low.
However, if the current panel requires adding bus bars, maybe
it's time to just add the new subpanel now.

the 150 amp panel may be connected to a 200 amp meter can and service
drop.......

Could be and worth checking. But unless the house really
needs 200, it still seems easier adding a subpanel instead of
ripping out the whole existing one.

home buyers look at sub panels as a quick patch fix, and may try to
demand the cost of a upgrade off the sales price.

Tell them "NO". I've never had a buyer care about a sub panel,
though. If their inspection report didn't make it an issue, they
didn't either.

In the typical contract, it would have to be an inspection
report issue. If the inspector doesn't raise an issue with
it, the buyer can't just say I want a new panel instead of
the sub-panel that is there. The contract says they've
agreed to buy the house, subject to any items that are
identified by the home inspector.

Not really true. When selling my house, they signed the contract,
pending inspection and later the buyers demanded everything. I
questioned what the contract is for ... I have to abide by it, why not
the buyers? Yes, I did fix the stuff in the inspection. And, actually,
some stuff I didn't fix just explaining that it wasn't a problem and
they accepted it. But the buyers wanted a new house, i.e. everything
new. They "demanded" a new furnace. The existing one was still partly
under original warranty. I gave a little by buying them an extra year
of home buyer's insurance. Then they demanded that all the brand new
carpeting be clean. I just said NO! Ultimately, the carpeting was
actually cleaned and payed for by my real estate agent and (believe it
or not) my attorney ... just to get these "buyers from hell" off our
backs.






in any case it just adds more hassle at sale time you will regret
it......

If you're a wus, perhaps.

But the other problem is if they bring anything up like
that, just telling them no, doesn't
necessarily work either. If you need to sell the house,
and you have a reasonable offer, you don't want to lose
the sale in this market over $1000. Which is why some
buyers can try to use anything to bitch for a price
reduction. So Bob has a point, but I agree most buyers
won't even know what a sub-panel is.

On Mar 26, 8:34*am, Art Todesco wrote:
On 3/25/2013 8:39 PM, wrote:





On Mar 25, 7:25 pm, wrote:
On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 09:18:33 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

on the panel itself when home resale time comes you will regret having
a sub panel and pieced together main service.

Why would that be? *As long as it's done to code, nothing
I know of that's wrong with a subpanel. *And the house has
gas for dryer, stove, HW, so 150 amps doesn't seem low.
However, if the current panel requires adding bus bars, maybe
it's time to just add the new subpanel now.

the 150 amp panel may be connected to a 200 amp meter can and service
drop.......

Could be and worth checking. *But unless the house really
needs 200, it still seems easier adding a subpanel instead of
ripping out the whole existing one.

home buyers look at sub panels as a quick patch fix, and may try to
demand the cost of a upgrade off the sales price.

Tell them "NO". *I've never had a buyer care about a sub panel,
though. *If their inspection report didn't make it an issue, they
didn't either.

In the typical contract, it would have to be an inspection
report issue. *If the inspector doesn't raise an issue with
it, the buyer can't just say I want a new panel instead of
the sub-panel that is there. *The contract says they've
agreed to buy the house, subject to any items that are
identified by the home inspector.

Not really true. *When selling my house, they signed the contract,
pending inspection and later the buyers demanded everything. *I
questioned what the contract is for ... I have to abide by it, why not
the buyers? *Yes, I did fix the stuff in the inspection. *And, actually,
some stuff I didn't fix just explaining that it wasn't a problem and
they accepted it. *But the buyers wanted a new house, i.e. everything
new. *They "demanded" a new furnace. *The existing one was still partly
under original warranty. *I gave a little by buying them an extra year
of home buyer's insurance. *Then they demanded that all the brand new
carpeting be clean. *I just said NO! * Ultimately, the carpeting was
actually cleaned and payed for by my real estate agent and (believe it
or not) my attorney ... just to get these "buyers from hell" off our
backs.



Well, you're right. The buyer can "try" to demand anything
at anytime, for any reason. What I meant was with the
typical real estate contract, unless their demand is for
something that is flagged in the inspection report, or
something else that is very unique and just discovere, they
are not legally in the right and would almost certainly
lose if the case went to court. Let's say for example,
that inspection report says nothing about the carpet
or interior paint being deficient. With the typical contract,
a buyer that now demands new carpet and a paint job
doesn't have a leg to stand on. Sure, as I
said, it may not be worth it to lose the sale over $1000.
But on the other hand, the seller has to decide when
they've had enough and for your lawyer to tell them
if they don't perform to the contract, you're going to sue
them and keep their deposit tied up in escrow.

I was selling a condo once. I had a buyer sign a contract
and apply for a 5% down mortgage. I asked them several
times if they were sure they could get a mortgage and
they said sure, no problem. After about a month, the
buyer called and told me they were approved. They
sent a letter indicating that to my attorney. Just before
the closing, the buyer calls me up and says there is a
problem, the bank withdrew the mortgage committment.
After some pertinent questioning, he fesses up that it
was because he has $50K in outstanding child support.
I asked, "Didn't they know that upfront? He says yes, they
did." He wants his deposit back. I said, fine, just send my
attorney a copy of the mortgage application that shows
you listed the child support on it and I'll return the deposit.

Needless to say, no such letter was forthcoming. His
lawyer did send me a letter saying that if we didn't give
the deposit back in a week, they were going to sue me.
I called up my attorney and told him to right the following
letter:

Dear Mr XYZX attorney:

I am in receipt of your letter indicating that you want to sue us.
I usually advise my clients to avoid litigation, but in some
circumstances it's the only way to find out fully what went
on here.


Sincerely,

ddfdfd


In other words, go ahead, make my day. Let's go to court
so your client can tell the judge how he tried to commit mortgage
fraud. We never heard from them again.....

Are Parts for Westinghouse main panels still available? If not that
could be a deal breaker..- Hide quoted text -


I think this thread strayed off course for a bit, but:

It appears Lowes and HD sell type "BR" breakers which are for
Westinghouse panels which do fit.
The busbar I purchased is Eaton, which states it is for type "BR"
panels. And the mounting holes do line up, and the screws thread into
the panel. I also bonded it to the existing bussbar with a #4 solid
copper. I was able to swing over a couple of grounds to the new
bussbar, which now opened up a few terminals for the neutrals on the
existing bussbar.
In any event, the next reno that takes place might be converting the
garage to living space. If that occurs, I might run a sub-panel into
the area to make thing easier.

On 3/25/2013 1:18 PM, Mikepier wrote:
On Mar 25, 11:34 am, wrote:
On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 07:30:16 -0700 (PDT), Mikepier

wrote:
Why can only gnd wires be put on the new buss bar and not the neutrals?
The bus bar you are adding is using the enclosure as a current path.
OK for grounding but not for a circuit current path.

As long as the screw you use is threaded into the metal it is OK but
it has to be a thread forming machine screw, not a sheet metal screw.
You should be using the bus bar intended for your panel.
The existing buss bars have both the grounds and neutrals going into
it now, so I'm a little confused. As long as I install the new buss
bar to the enclosure and bond it to the existing one with #6 wire, why
can't the neutrals be connected to it?
It's probably fine, however the panel buss has a direct connection to
what's probably a 2/0 aluminum neutral conductor.
Why not just transfer a pile of ground wires to the new bar, and use the
panel buss for the new neutrals

On 3/25/2013 8:37 AM, Mikepier wrote:
I don't know why they put in 150A instead of 200A.
I ask myself that same burning question every time I see one. The cost
differential is so small it never made any sense to me. I am an
electrical contractor, and I've been in the business for over 40 years.
Guess what size service I have in my house.
NO, I didn't install it, but, as it is perfectly adequate, it's on the
low priority list for replacement

On 3/25/2013 10:36 PM, bob haller wrote:
On Mar 25, 8:39 pm,
wrote:
On Mar 25, 7:25 pm, wrote:

On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 09:18:33 -0700 (PDT), bob
wrote:

on the panel itself when home resale time comes you will regret having
a sub panel and pieced together main service.

Why would that be? As long as it's done to code, nothing
I know of that's wrong with a subpanel. And the house has
gas for dryer, stove, HW, so 150 amps doesn't seem low.
However, if the current panel requires adding bus bars, maybe
it's time to just add the new subpanel now.

Bus bars? It is a ground bar, which is a common accessory.


the 150 amp panel may be connected to a 200 amp meter can and service
drop.......

The service drop is irrelevant. Most utilities will replace the drop
free, if needed.

But the service entrance wire will be too small. And the service
entrance pipe will likely be too small.


Could be and worth checking. But unless the house really
needs 200, it still seems easier adding a subpanel instead of
ripping out the whole existing one.

Haller believes every service should be 200A minimum. It is one of his
fetishes, often expressed here. If you put a service on a dog house it
better be 200A.

I made a service calculation on a house in a post by clare. My
recollection is that 100A was more than large enough.


home buyers look at sub panels as a quick patch fix, and may try to
demand the cost of a upgrade off the sales price.

Haller looks at sub panels as a patch.
Home buyers are likely not as malinformed.


in any case it just adds more hassle at sale time you will regret
it......

If you're a wus, perhaps.

But the other problem is if they bring anything up like
that, just telling them no, doesn't
necessarily work either. If you need to sell the house,
and you have a reasonable offer, you don't want to lose
the sale in this market over $1000. Which is why some
buyers can try to use anything to bitch for a price
reduction. So Bob has a point, but I agree most buyers
won't even know what a sub-panel is.

Most people are getting home inspectors, and with a 25 year old panel
with a sub panel the inspector
could ask lots of nosey questions.

It is haller's field of expertise.

The entire service is old and
obsolete,

So is the wire, the pipe, the furnace, the water heater, the floors, the
walls, the paint, ....
Best to just bulldoze an obsolete 25 year old house.

the panel maker is no longer in the panel business, 150 amp
main with all these extra breakers is bad idea, etc etc etc,

What is an "extra breaker"?
From what is in this thread, 150A is plenty for this house.
Circuit breakers for the panel appear to be readily available.

Why not just transfer a pile of ground wires to the new bar, and use the
panel buss for the new neutrals

Because most of the circuits come from the top, and the new gnd bar is
at the bottom, the ground wires don't reach down to the bottom so I
would have to splice the grounds to an extension to reach down to the
new bar.

In article ,
Mikepier wrote:
On Mar 25, 11:34*am, wrote:
On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 07:30:16 -0700 (PDT), Mikepier

wrote:
Why can only gnd wires be put on the new buss bar and not the neutrals?

The bus bar you are adding is using the enclosure as a current path.
OK for grounding but not for a circuit current path.

As long as the screw you use is threaded into the metal it is OK but
it has to be a thread forming machine screw, not a sheet metal screw.
You should be using the bus bar intended for your panel.

The existing buss bars have both the grounds and neutrals going into
it now, so I'm a little confused. As long as I install the new buss
bar to the enclosure and bond it to the existing one with #6 wire, why
can't the neutrals be connected to it?


The NEC requires that neutral be bonded to ground at a single point,
normally the service entrance, and _only_ at that single point.

The main panel will typically have the bonding jumper, but all subpanels
will not.

In many panels, a single buss bar is provided, with a bonding screw to the
enclosure. When used as a main panel, the bonding screw is installed.
If you have only one panel, this is probably what you have.
When used as a subpanel, a seperate ground bar is installed, and the bonding
screw is removed.

If you have a seperate meter base and disconnect/main breaker, or
meter/main disconnect combo, with a seperate panel, the bonding jumper
should be located in the main disconnect, and generally not in the panel.
which should have seperate ground and neutral busses. The ground is
normally not located in the meter pan.

If you have a combined meter/main panel, it should have the bonding screw.
All other panels are subpanels, and need to have the bonding screw
removed, and seperate ground and neutral busses installed.


The rules vary a bit for detached structures. Generally, if there is a
single electrical feed, and no other ground path (such as telephone,
or CATV), then it may be possible to consider the feed to the structure
as a seperate service, with it's own ground, and no ground wire is run
between the structures. If there are multiple ground paths, or multiple
circuits, then the structure may need to be tied into the main grounding
system, and no local ground used.
Check with your local authority about local code requirements.


Generators are another fun area. A lot depends on whether the transfer
switch transfers the neutral, and the presence of accessories such as
block heaters, battery chargers, etc. Again, check with your local
authority.


--
-- Welcome My Son, Welcome To The Machine --
Bob Vaughan | |
AF6RR | P.O. Box 19792, Stanford, Ca 94309-9792 | 1-650-469-3850
-- I am Me, I am only Me, And no one else is Me, What could be simpler? --

most home buyers inspection says must pass inspection, so anything
like a old main panel that lacked enough slots for the number of
needed breakers kills the deal.... plus W is out of that business..

When I was young, just out of high school I serviced machines at the
Westinghouse breaker plant in vanport, beaver pa. It was a fasinating
and busy place. They offered me a job, with a raise no interview
needed.

I didnt know why but passed on the job.

A short time later their business collapsed, last time I was there
everyone with less than 20 years were let go.

Today that plant carries a different name but still builds some
things. The parking lot is mostly empty, and over half the plant was
leveled. I drove by and could see the outlines on the concrete floors
where I used to service machines

On Mar 26, 4:46*pm, bob haller wrote:
most home buyers inspection says must pass inspection, so anything
like a old main panel that lacked enough slots for the number of
needed breakers kills the deal.... plus W is out of that business..

When I was young, just out of high school I serviced machines at the
Westinghouse breaker plant in vanport, beaver pa. It was a fasinating
and busy place. They offered me a job, with a raise no interview
needed.

I didnt know why but passed on the job.

A short time later their business collapsed, last time I was there
everyone with less than 20 years were let go.

Today that plant carries a different name but still builds some
things. The parking lot is mostly empty, and over half the plant was
leveled. I drove by and could see the outlines on the concrete floors
where I used to service machines

I drove by and could see the outlines on the concrete floors
where I used to service machines

I used to work at large plant that has slowly been reduced to just a
few buildings. As they tore down unused buildings, they would crush
the brick and use it as landscaping material around remaining
buildings and along roadways.

We would drive through the plant and try to guess what building a
given pile of landscaping material used to be based on the color of
the chunks.

I don't know why they put in 150A instead of 200A.
I ask myself that same burning question every time I see one. The cost
differential is so small it never made any sense to me. I am an electrical
contractor, and I've been in the business for over 40 years. Guess what
size service I have in my house.
NO, I didn't install it, but, as it is perfectly adequate, it's on the low
priority list for replacement


*Several years ago I got a call from someone who wanted a service upgrade.
I went and looked at the job and figured to upgrade to 200 amp. The
customer got mad at me and said he didn't need or want a 200 amp service.
He insisted on upgrading to 150 amp only. I explained to him that there
really wasn't much price difference, but he was adamant about only getting a
150 amp service upgrade.

On 3/26/2013 5:25 PM, John Grabowski wrote:
I don't know why they put in 150A instead of 200A.
I ask myself that same burning question every time I see one. The
cost differential is so small it never made any sense to me. I am an
electrical contractor, and I've been in the business for over 40
years. Guess what size service I have in my house.
NO, I didn't install it, but, as it is perfectly adequate, it's on
the low priority list for replacement


*Several years ago I got a call from someone who wanted a service
upgrade. I went and looked at the job and figured to upgrade to 200
amp. The customer got mad at me and said he didn't need or want a 200
amp service. He insisted on upgrading to 150 amp only. I explained to
him that there really wasn't much price difference, but he was adamant
about only getting a 150 amp service upgrade.

Some folks are just ignorant, and nothing you say is going to enlighten
them. You should have charged him more for the 150.

I don't know why they put in 150A instead of 200A.
I ask myself that same burning question every time I see one. The cost
differential is so small it never made any sense to me. I am an
electrical contractor, and I've been in the business for over 40 years.
Guess what size service I have in my house.
NO, I didn't install it, but, as it is perfectly adequate, it's on the
low priority list for replacement


*Several years ago I got a call from someone who wanted a service
upgrade. I went and looked at the job and figured to upgrade to 200 amp.
The customer got mad at me and said he didn't need or want a 200 amp
service. He insisted on upgrading to 150 amp only. I explained to him
that there really wasn't much price difference, but he was adamant about
only getting a 150 amp service upgrade.

Some folks are just ignorant, and nothing you say is going to enlighten
them. You should have charged him more for the 150.


*I haven't compared lately, but I think a 200 amp loadcenter combo package
with branch breakers included at Home Depot is cheaper than a 150 at the
supply house.

On Mar 26, 7:09*pm, RBM wrote:
On 3/26/2013 5:25 PM, John Grabowski wrote:

* I don't know why they put in 150A instead of 200A.
I ask myself that same burning question every time I see one. The
cost differential is so small it never made any sense to me. I am an
electrical contractor, and I've been in the business for over 40
years. Guess what size service I have in my house.
NO, I didn't install it, but, as it is perfectly adequate, it's on
the low priority list for replacement

*Several years ago I got a call from someone who wanted a service
upgrade. I went and looked at the job and figured to upgrade to 200
amp. *The customer got mad at me and said he didn't need or want a 200
amp service. He insisted on upgrading to 150 amp only. I explained to
him that there really wasn't much price difference, but he was adamant
about only getting a 150 amp service upgrade.

Some folks are just ignorant, and nothing you say is going to enlighten
them. You should have charged him more for the 150.

I repair office machines mostly in schools for a living, its my own
business.

One day I found a machine missing its ground pin. The machine was
under maintence so the new plug was FREE. The principal came in and I
mentioned I would replace the plug, since the lack of ground was a
safety issue......

The principal argued with me she ONLY wanted the gound pin replaced in
the molded plug. There was no way to do THAT!

So when she left I cut off the plug, and installed a new one. And
called my contact and told him about her wanting me to replace just
the pin

As far as I know she never caught what I did.

On 3/26/2013 7:35 PM, John Grabowski wrote:
I don't know why they put in 150A instead of 200A.
I ask myself that same burning question every time I see one. The
cost differential is so small it never made any sense to me. I am
an electrical contractor, and I've been in the business for over 40
years. Guess what size service I have in my house.
NO, I didn't install it, but, as it is perfectly adequate, it's on
the low priority list for replacement


*Several years ago I got a call from someone who wanted a service
upgrade. I went and looked at the job and figured to upgrade to 200
amp. The customer got mad at me and said he didn't need or want a
200 amp service. He insisted on upgrading to 150 amp only. I
explained to him that there really wasn't much price difference, but
he was adamant about only getting a 150 amp service upgrade.

Some folks are just ignorant, and nothing you say is going to
enlighten them. You should have charged him more for the 150.


*I haven't compared lately, but I think a 200 amp loadcenter combo
package with branch breakers included at Home Depot is cheaper than a
150 at the supply house.
It's certainly cheaper than at my supply houses

On 3/26/2013 7:40 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 17:25:00 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:

I don't know why they put in 150A instead of 200A.
I ask myself that same burning question every time I see one. The cost
differential is so small it never made any sense to me. I am an electrical
contractor, and I've been in the business for over 40 years. Guess what
size service I have in my house.
NO, I didn't install it, but, as it is perfectly adequate, it's on the low
priority list for replacement

*Several years ago I got a call from someone who wanted a service upgrade.
I went and looked at the job and figured to upgrade to 200 amp. The
customer got mad at me and said he didn't need or want a 200 amp service.
He insisted on upgrading to 150 amp only. I explained to him that there
really wasn't much price difference, but he was adamant about only getting a
150 amp service upgrade.
Aw come on, you know a 200a will use more power ;-)
That's too funny. I can't tell you how many people would ask me that,
after doing a service upgrade. Then there was this elderly lady that
believed electricity would leak out of the socket if you removed the bulb.

On Mar 26, 4:46*pm, bob haller wrote:
most home buyers inspection says must pass inspection, so anything
like a old main panel that lacked enough slots for the number of
needed breakers kills the deal....

That would have to be really something, a panel with
not enough slots for all the breakers. Where do you put
the extra ones, hanging on the wall? You're creating
a strawman that doesn't exist. If you have a main panel,
it contains it's breakers and the sub panel contains it's
breakers. Neither lacks enough slots and the arrangement
is code compliant. That is what Mike is planning on doing,
right?

You're assuming that most or all home inspectors are going
to fail a properly done sub-panel and I believe that just isn't so.
For one thing, they sure would be wasting a lot of time
answering questions on those inspections when the seller
produces a permit showing it was inspected and approved
by the AHJ. Then what do they say? They have the home
buyer calling them, the home seller calling them.....
Plus, most home inspectors ain't very smart. I would think
they would want to avoid any such controversy by sticking
to what is code compliant and working and what is not.



plus W is out of that business..

I said earlier that if it's true that no compatible breakers
are available for that panel, then I would replace it instead
of doing a sub-panel. But the OP has not said if that is
in fact, the case.

And again, I'm not saying Mike shouldn't price out doing
the service upgrade, main panel replacement, as opposed
to just adding a sub-panel. But I also don't buy the horror
story that you can't sell a house because it has a sub-panel
and the home inspector is going to flag it as an item needing
repair. Google "subpanel home inspection" and you'll get
lots of hits of discussions involving home inspectors. I
didn't do a close look in detail, but just looking at the overall
results, every discussion is about how to inspect them,
how they should be correctly installed,
improper bonding, etc. Not one says if you find a sub-panel,
flag it as an item that is unacceptable.

On Mar 27, 8:36*am, "
wrote:
On Mar 26, 4:46Â*pm, bob haller wrote:

most home buyers inspection says must pass inspection, so anything
like a old main panel that lacked enough slots for the number of
needed breakers kills the deal....

That would have to be really something, a panel with
not enough slots for all the breakers. *Where do you put
the extra ones, hanging on the wall? * You're creating
a strawman that doesn't exist. * If you have a main panel,
it contains it's breakers and the sub panel contains it's
breakers. *Neither lacks enough slots and the arrangement
is code compliant. *That is what Mike is planning on doing,
right?

You're assuming that most or all home inspectors are going
*to fail a properly done sub-panel and I believe that just isn't so.
For one thing, they sure would be wasting a lot of time
answering questions on those inspections when the seller
produces a permit showing it was inspected and approved
by the AHJ. * Then what do they say? *They have the home
buyer calling them, the home seller calling them.....
Plus, most home inspectors ain't very smart. *I would think
they would want to avoid any such controversy by sticking
to what is code compliant and working and what is not.

plus W is out of that business..

I said earlier that if it's true that no compatible breakers
are available for that panel, then I would replace it instead
of doing a sub-panel. * But the OP has not said if that is
in fact, the case.

And again, I'm not saying Mike shouldn't price out doing
the service upgrade, main panel replacement, as opposed
to just adding a sub-panel. * But I also don't buy the horror
story that you can't sell a house because it has a sub-panel
and the home inspector is going to flag it as an item needing
repair. *Google "subpanel home inspection" and you'll get
lots of hits of discussions involving home inspectors. *I
didn't do a close look in detail, but just looking at the overall
results, every discussion is about how to inspect them,
how they should be correctly installed,
improper bonding, etc. *Not one says if you find a sub-panel,
flag it as an item that is unacceptable.

In this case the need for a sub panel shows the panel isnt big
enough.......

What anyone does has ZERO effect on me

Home inspectors have become very fussy, they can get sued for missing
anything.....

so everything can get flagged.....

Personally I think its better to avoid home inspection issues than
create them, but maybe thats just me

On Monday, March 25, 2013 8:37:38 AM UTC-4, Mikepier wrote:
I am re-wiring a friends basement and he has a Westinghouse 150A panel with 30 breakers. I ran out of terminals on the ground/neutral bars, even after doubling up on some ground wires of new circuits I ran. So I purchased a grounding buss bar from Home Depot. My question is that the existing mounting holes on this buss bar do not line up with the pre-drilled holes in the panel, so I need to make at least one new one. Since the panel is directly behind plywood, is it possible to just use a large self-tapping screw and screw through the bussbar, through the panel, and through the pywood? The other mounting hole I would use the threaded screw. Also I assume I need to use at least a #6 wire to link the new buss bar with the existing buss bar. That would take car of the basement for now, but looking down the road if other circuits needed to be added for another reno, is it possible to add a sub-panel to the main panel? I thought about changing out the panel to a 200 amp, but I don't think it is necessary, this is a house that uses and gas stove/dryer/water heater. Plus the fact the outside meter pan would need to be changed. The existing panel is maybe 20-25 years old, I don't know why they put in 150A instead of 200A.

You can drill a hole and use a self tapping screw to add your new bus.

The question this raises is if that panel is rated for 30 circuits. Normally there will be enough ground/neutral connections in the panel as long as you are within it's rated circuits. You said you have 30 breakers in it, are they all full height? Or are some of them half height? Did you connect more than one hot wire to each breaker? Only some breaker models are designed to acccept more than one hot.

If you exceeded the circuits allowed in the box or connectd multiple hots to breakers that only allow one hot those will come back to haunt you on inspection.

On Mar 27, 9:12*am, bob haller wrote:
On Mar 27, 8:36*am, "
wrote:





On Mar 26, 4:46Â*pm, bob haller wrote:

most home buyers inspection says must pass inspection, so anything
like a old main panel that lacked enough slots for the number of
needed breakers kills the deal....

That would have to be really something, a panel with
not enough slots for all the breakers. *Where do you put
the extra ones, hanging on the wall? * You're creating
a strawman that doesn't exist. * If you have a main panel,
it contains it's breakers and the sub panel contains it's
breakers. *Neither lacks enough slots and the arrangement
is code compliant. *That is what Mike is planning on doing,
right?

You're assuming that most or all home inspectors are going
*to fail a properly done sub-panel and I believe that just isn't so.
For one thing, they sure would be wasting a lot of time
answering questions on those inspections when the seller
produces a permit showing it was inspected and approved
by the AHJ. * Then what do they say? *They have the home
buyer calling them, the home seller calling them.....
Plus, most home inspectors ain't very smart. *I would think
they would want to avoid any such controversy by sticking
to what is code compliant and working and what is not.

plus W is out of that business..

I said earlier that if it's true that no compatible breakers
are available for that panel, then I would replace it instead
of doing a sub-panel. * But the OP has not said if that is
in fact, the case.

And again, I'm not saying Mike shouldn't price out doing
the service upgrade, main panel replacement, as opposed
to just adding a sub-panel. * But I also don't buy the horror
story that you can't sell a house because it has a sub-panel
and the home inspector is going to flag it as an item needing
repair. *Google "subpanel home inspection" and you'll get
lots of hits of discussions involving home inspectors. *I
didn't do a close look in detail, but just looking at the overall
results, every discussion is about how to inspect them,
how they should be correctly installed,
improper bonding, etc. *Not one says if you find a sub-panel,
flag it as an item that is unacceptable.

In this case the need for a sub panel shows the panel isnt big
enough.......

What anyone does has ZERO effect on me

Home inspectors have become very fussy, they can get sued for missing
anything.....

Anyone can get sued for anything by anyone that feels like
going down to the court house. However, home inspector contracts
are well written, with plenty of protection and outs for them.
It would have to one hell of an obvious mistake to prevail.




so everything can get flagged.....

Personally I think its better to avoid home inspection issues than
create them, but maybe thats just me- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

We agree on that, in general. I said Mike should evaluate
doing a panel replacement, service upgrade as well as adding
the sub-panel. I hope he gets back to us with his results and
decision. What I don't agree with is that adding a sub-panel is
going to result in it being flagged by a home inspector. Not
if it's done right. Did you google and see all the home inspectors
discussing the details of inspecting them? I didn't see any
saying, don't bother, just flag a sub-panel as unacceptable.

On Wednesday, March 27, 2013 10:12:17 AM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
On 3/27/2013 7:46 AM, jamesgang wrote: On Monday, March 25, 2013 8:37:38 AM UTC-4, Mikepier wrote: I am re-wiring a friends basement and he has a Westinghouse 150A panel with 30 breakers. I ran out of terminals on the ground/neutral bars, even after doubling up on some ground wires of new circuits I ran. So I purchased a grounding buss bar from Home Depot. My question is that the existing mounting holes on this buss bar do not line up with the pre-drilled holes in the panel, so I need to make at least one new one. Since the panel is directly behind plywood, is it possible to just use a large self-tapping screw and screw through the bussbar, through the panel, and through the pywood? The other mounting hole I would use the threaded screw. Also I assume I need to use at least a #6 wire to link the new buss bar with the existing buss bar. That would take car of the basement for now, but looking down the road if other circuits needed to be added for another reno, is it possible to add a sub-panel to the main panel? I thought about changing out the panel to a 200 amp, but I don' t think it is necessary, this is a house that uses and gas stove/dryer/water heater. Plus the fact the outside meter pan would need to be changed. The existing panel is maybe 20-25 years old, I don't know why they put in 150A instead of 200A. You can drill a hole and use a self tapping screw to add your new bus. Self tapping screws can not be used as the electrical connection to the box (as gfretwell wrote). A wire would have to be added to the neutral bus. The question this raises is if that panel is rated for 30 circuits. Normally there will be enough ground/neutral connections in the panel as long as you are within it's rated circuits. I don't think that is necessarily true. You don't need a lot of spaces for ground wires if you wire with EMT and I don't think all panels have enough neutral bar spaces to wire everything in romex. Ground bars to add are readily available. You said you have 30 breakers in it, are they all full height? Or are some of them half height? Did you connect more than one hot wire to each breaker? Only some breaker models are designed to acccept more than one hot. If you exceeded the circuits allowed in the box Generally, you can't exceed the allowed number of circuits.. You would have to install tandem breakers to do that, and they have a rejection feature that only allows them to be installed in locations indicated on the panel label. It is a UL Class CTL feature - circuit limiting. or connectd multiple hots to breakers that only allow one hot those will come back to haunt you on inspection.

Ok, install with a self tapping screw, remove the self tapping screw and put in a regular threaded screw.

On 3/27/2013 7:46 AM, jamesgang wrote:
On Monday, March 25, 2013 8:37:38 AM UTC-4, Mikepier wrote:
I am re-wiring a friends basement and he has a Westinghouse 150A panel with 30 breakers. I ran out of terminals on the ground/neutral bars, even after doubling up on some ground wires of new circuits I ran. So I purchased a grounding buss bar from Home Depot. My question is that the existing mounting holes on this buss bar do not line up with the pre-drilled holes in the panel, so I need to make at least one new one. Since the panel is directly behind plywood, is it possible to just use a large self-tapping screw and screw through the bussbar, through the panel, and through the pywood? The other mounting hole I would use the threaded screw. Also I assume I need to use at least a #6 wire to link the new buss bar with the existing buss bar. That would take car of the basement for now, but looking down the road if other circuits needed to be added for another reno, is it possible to add a sub-panel to the main panel? I thought about changing out the panel to a 200 amp, but I don'
t think it is necessary, this is a house that uses and gas stove/dryer/water heater. Plus the fact the outside meter pan would need to be changed. The existing panel is maybe 20-25 years old, I don't know why they put in 150A instead of 200A.

You can drill a hole and use a self tapping screw to add your new bus.

Self tapping screws can not be used as the electrical connection to the
box (as gfretwell wrote). A wire would have to be added to the neutral bus.


The question this raises is if that panel is rated for 30 circuits. Normally there will be enough ground/neutral connections in the panel as long as you are within it's rated circuits.

I don't think that is necessarily true. You don't need a lot of spaces
for ground wires if you wire with EMT and I don't think all panels have
enough neutral bar spaces to wire everything in romex. Ground bars to
add are readily available.

You said you have 30 breakers in it, are they all full height? Or are some of them half height? Did you connect more than one hot wire to each breaker? Only some breaker models are designed to acccept more than one hot.

If you exceeded the circuits allowed in the box

Generally, you can't exceed the allowed number of circuits. You would
have to install tandem breakers to do that, and they have a rejection
feature that only allows them to be installed in locations indicated on
the panel label. It is a UL Class CTL feature - circuit limiting.

or connectd multiple hots to breakers that only allow one hot those will come back to haunt you on inspection.

On 3/26/2013 11:53 AM, bud-- wrote:
On 3/25/2013 10:36 PM, bob haller wrote:
On Mar 25, 8:39 pm,
wrote:
On Mar 25, 7:25 pm, wrote:

On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 09:18:33 -0700 (PDT), bob
wrote:

on the panel itself when home resale time comes you will regret
having
a sub panel and pieced together main service.

Why would that be? As long as it's done to code, nothing
I know of that's wrong with a subpanel. And the house has
gas for dryer, stove, HW, so 150 amps doesn't seem low.
However, if the current panel requires adding bus bars, maybe
it's time to just add the new subpanel now.

Bus bars? It is a ground bar, which is a common accessory.


the 150 amp panel may be connected to a 200 amp meter can and
service
drop.......

The service drop is irrelevant. Most utilities will replace the drop
free, if needed.

But the service entrance wire will be too small. And the service
entrance pipe will likely be too small.


Could be and worth checking. But unless the house really
needs 200, it still seems easier adding a subpanel instead of
ripping out the whole existing one.

Haller believes every service should be 200A minimum. It is one of his
fetishes, often expressed here. If you put a service on a dog house it
better be 200A.

I made a service calculation on a house in a post by clare. My
recollection is that 100A was more than large enough.


home buyers look at sub panels as a quick patch fix, and may try to
demand the cost of a upgrade off the sales price.

Haller looks at sub panels as a patch.
Home buyers are likely not as malinformed.


in any case it just adds more hassle at sale time you will regret
it......

If you're a wus, perhaps.

But the other problem is if they bring anything up like
that, just telling them no, doesn't
necessarily work either. If you need to sell the house,
and you have a reasonable offer, you don't want to lose
the sale in this market over $1000. Which is why some
buyers can try to use anything to bitch for a price
reduction. So Bob has a point, but I agree most buyers
won't even know what a sub-panel is.

Most people are getting home inspectors, and with a 25 year old panel
with a sub panel the inspector
could ask lots of nosey questions.

It is haller's field of expertise.

The entire service is old and
obsolete,

So is the wire, the pipe, the furnace, the water heater, the floors,
the walls, the paint, ....
Best to just bulldoze an obsolete 25 year old house.

the panel maker is no longer in the panel business, 150 amp
main with all these extra breakers is bad idea, etc etc etc,

What is an "extra breaker"?
From what is in this thread, 150A is plenty for this house.
Circuit breakers for the panel appear to be readily available.

This is obviously a case where the service is of adequate size but more
distribution is needed. Even a typical 200 amp main breaker panel is
made in 20 circuits, 30 circuits, and 40 circuits. You don't always have
room for a full sized 40 circuit panel. In some instances a new
installation may require a smaller main panel and a sub panel. Contrary
to Haller's opinion, I think a home buyers inspector would like my main
panel and two sub panels. I happen to like a lot of distribution, but I
suppose in Haller's world I should have opted for a sixty circuit panel
to begin with. Guess I'll just be trembling with fear when it's home
selling time.

On Mar 27, 12:32*pm, bud-- wrote:
On 3/27/2013 9:37 AM, wrote:





On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 09:11:04 -0600,
wrote:

Self tapping screws can not be used as the electrical connection to the
box (as gfretwell wrote). A wire would have to be added to the neutral bus.

You can use a thread forming machine screw if the metal is thick
enough.
This is what 250.8 says about it

(5) * * * *Machine screw-type fasteners that engage not less than two
threads or are secured with a nut
(6) * * * *Thread-forming machine screws that engage not less than two
threads in the enclosure

This excludes a course thread sheet metal screw.

Most parts of a panel are probably not thick enough for 2 threads.

If you have a 100A feeder, are 4 threads (2 screws) adequate for a
ground fault (paint blocks direct contact). It makes me nervous.

Presumably the ground bar that is added is "listed". Not all of them
are. Some are UL "recognized" components that are not the same as
listed. (Or the bar can be accepted by the inspector.)

The HEAVY COPPER line between the original bar and the added one takes
care of electrical conductivity

My biggest problem adding a bar was getting the original ones screws
loose. They must of been tightened at the factory and didnt want to
budge

Some I jared loose One ripped the screw slot off trying to get it
loose. After that I tried heating some.

The middle group inspector congraulated me on my good job.....

The home inspector flagged the panel because the original inspection
stickers signature had faded The sticker was fine the signature cold
be seen but not read......

On 3/27/2013 9:37 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 09:11:04 -0600,
wrote:

Self tapping screws can not be used as the electrical connection to the
box (as gfretwell wrote). A wire would have to be added to the neutral bus.

You can use a thread forming machine screw if the metal is thick
enough.
This is what 250.8 says about it

(5) Machine screw-type fasteners that engage not less than two
threads or are secured with a nut
(6) Thread-forming machine screws that engage not less than two
threads in the enclosure

This excludes a course thread sheet metal screw.

Most parts of a panel are probably not thick enough for 2 threads.

If you have a 100A feeder, are 4 threads (2 screws) adequate for a
ground fault (paint blocks direct contact). It makes me nervous.

Presumably the ground bar that is added is "listed". Not all of them
are. Some are UL "recognized" components that are not the same as
listed. (Or the bar can be accepted by the inspector.)

On Wednesday, March 27, 2013 12:32:27 PM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
On 3/27/2013 9:37 AM, wrote: On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 09:11:04 -0600, wrote: Self tapping screws can not be used as the electrical connection to the box (as gfretwell wrote). A wire would have to be added to the neutral bus. You can use a thread forming machine screw if the metal is thick enough. This is what 250.8 says about it (5) Machine screw-type fasteners that engage not less than two threads or are secured with a nut (6) Thread-forming machine screws that engage not less than two threads in the enclosure This excludes a course thread sheet metal screw. Most parts of a panel are probably not thick enough for 2 threads. If you have a 100A feeder, are 4 threads (2 screws) adequate for a ground fault (paint blocks direct contact). It makes me nervous. Presumably the ground bar that is added is "listed". Not all of them are. Some are UL "recognized" components that are not the same as listed. (Or the bar can be accepted by the inspector.)

10-32 self-tapping machine screw will have two threads in 1/16" sheet metal.. The boxes I've seen recently all have machine screws holding the ground bars on. I don't see the difference.

On 3/27/2013 10:53 AM, bob haller wrote:
On Mar 27, 12:32 pm, wrote:
On 3/27/2013 9:37 AM, wrote:





On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 09:11:04 -0600,
wrote:

Self tapping screws can not be used as the electrical connection to the
box (as gfretwell wrote). A wire would have to be added to the neutral bus.

You can use a thread forming machine screw if the metal is thick
enough.
This is what 250.8 says about it

(5) Machine screw-type fasteners that engage not less than two
threads or are secured with a nut
(6) Thread-forming machine screws that engage not less than two
threads in the enclosure

This excludes a course thread sheet metal screw.

Most parts of a panel are probably not thick enough for 2 threads.

If you have a 100A feeder, are 4 threads (2 screws) adequate for a
ground fault (paint blocks direct contact). It makes me nervous.

Presumably the ground bar that is added is "listed". Not all of them
are. Some are UL "recognized" components that are not the same as
listed. (Or the bar can be accepted by the inspector.)

The HEAVY COPPER line between the original bar and the added one takes
care of electrical conductivity

You added a ground bar?????

The panel was obviously obsolete. The house should have been demolished.


The home inspector flagged the panel because the original inspection
stickers signature had faded The sticker was fine the signature cold
be seen but not read......

Any house that old is obsolete. Who knows what else has faded. The house
should have been demolished.

On 3/27/2013 3:04 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 09:53:04 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

The home inspector flagged the panel because the original inspection
stickers signature had faded The sticker was fine the signature cold
be seen but not read......
Home inspectors are clueless for the most part. Until very recently
(and still true in some places) these people are self certified.
The "test" the trade groups give is trivial and it really seems to be
that they just want the money to certify you.
I took the HACHI test, got a 94 the first time I saw it and I have
never seen a oil fired furnace or any kind of boiler. (several
questions on the test)
There was an error on the electrical part of the test.
If I was willing to send them a few hundred bucks, I would be a
certified home inspector.
I was on the HACHI BB for a while but I just got tired of explaining
things like why it was OK to have 10 ga wire going to a A/C compressor
with a 40a breaker, it is OK to put 2 wires on a SqD breaker and that
there is no "right" way to orient a NEMA 5-15 receptacle.

These guys get paid to find reasons why the buyer should not pay the
seller's price, They sometimes "find" ridiculous things while missing
serious issues.
That is my opinion of these guys exactly. They're typically idiots, and
their only purpose is to concoct a list of issues that enable the buyer
to get a lower price on the house. Listening to Haller, you'd think they
had some actual authority. Can't tell you how many letters I've had to
write to refute their findings over the years.

On 3/27/2013 2:15 PM, jamesgang wrote:
On Wednesday, March 27, 2013 12:32:27 PM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
On 3/27/2013 9:37 AM, wrote: On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 09:11:04 -0600, wrote: Self tapping screws can not be used as the electrical connection to the box (as gfretwell wrote). A wire would have to be added to the neutral bus. You can use a thread forming machine screw if the metal is thick enough. This is what 250.8 says about it (5) Machine screw-type fasteners that engage not less than two threads or are secured with a nut (6) Thread-forming machine screws that engage not less than two threads in the enclosure This excludes a course thread sheet metal screw. Most parts of a panel are probably not thick enough for 2 threads. If you have a 100A feeder, are 4 threads (2 screws) adequate for a ground fault (paint blocks direct contact). It makes me nervous. Presumably the ground bar that is added is "listed". Not all of them are. Some are UL "recognized" components that are not the same as listed. (Or the bar can be accepted by the inspector.)
10-32 self-tapping machine screw will have two threads in 1/16" sheet metal. The boxes I've seen recently all have machine screws holding the ground bars on. I don't see the difference.
They don't just drill and tap the sheet metal. They punch the metal into
a depression, then drill and tap the depression, which gives it more
depth and more threads