Hi all,

am thrashing on Jeep again... vehicle is mostly rust free
(surprisingly, since it's from PA) but I've started ripping the old rear
bumper and gas tank skid plate off so as to install a new rear bumper
that isn't made from poop and fail, and has proper D-ring tabs and a
Class 3 receiver for it.

So far, I've managed to destroy everything that I needed to and nothing
that I didn't want to, so I've got that going for me.

However, as part of this exercise, me being as I am, all of the little
bits that came off that need to go back on I would like to have cleaned
and painted so that they won't be overly rusty (or just plain gone) in
another 14 years when I take it apart again (or more likely, my cousin's
little son, who thinks this Jeep is the greatest thing since sliced
bread, does.)

My usual weapon of choice is the magic derusting tank, the electrolytic
thing that if you haven't used yet, you should. Basically just take a
large plastic (non-conductive) container, a piece of scrap steel, some
water, and a little bit of washing soda to make the water conductive,
hook your 12V power supply or old battery charger up to the scrap (+ive)
and piece you want to clean up (-ive) let sit for a few hours et voila.
Nothing short of miraculous.

Well, that alone caused an issue, I've been using the crap out of the
thing and I'm nearly out of washing soda. Apparently Ace Hardware is
the ONLY store in my area that sells it anymore - I called or stopped by
all of the grocery stores, big box hardware stores, Target, Wal-Mart,
etc. - no can do. But at least I have some, and also found a pool
supply place that will sell me some soda ash if I go back with a
container (which I probably will, because they're much closer than the
nearest Ace.)

Next issue - the gas tank skid plate. It's far bigger than my
container, and even just the flanges where the rust is won't fit in. So
I figured I'd drop back and mechanically remove as much as I can (angle
grinder, then wire brush) then finish with some phosphoric acid solution
e.g. "Metal Ready" or similar and just use some rust-oleum rusty metal
crap which I normally hate because it's so soft but hey, it's not going
to get damaged and I'll just coat it with roofing tar anyway where it
mates to the frame rails.

Issue: Phosphoric acid, "metal ready" etc. seems to also be similarly
off the shelves of anywhere that I'd expect to find it. I did pick up a
jug of something called "Evapo-Rust" we will see how that works out but
I have to admit that I'm awful skeptical of anything that I haven't used
before because nothing that I've found ever seems to work any better
than the two old reliables, phosphoric acid and the electrolytic tanks.

Where are you guys finding phosphoric acid, or are you all having the
same problems?

I'm starting to think that $250 for a shiny new skid plate, while a lot
of money, might not be exorbitant considering the PITA that this
exercise is turning out to be given all the time that I've spent trying
to find supplies and not waving a spray bomb or turning wrenches...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 19:40:02 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Hi all,

am thrashing on Jeep again... vehicle is mostly rust free
(surprisingly, since it's from PA) but I've started ripping the old rear
bumper and gas tank skid plate off so as to install a new rear bumper
that isn't made from poop and fail, and has proper D-ring tabs and a
Class 3 receiver for it.

So far, I've managed to destroy everything that I needed to and nothing
that I didn't want to, so I've got that going for me.

However, as part of this exercise, me being as I am, all of the little
bits that came off that need to go back on I would like to have cleaned
and painted so that they won't be overly rusty (or just plain gone) in
another 14 years when I take it apart again (or more likely, my cousin's
little son, who thinks this Jeep is the greatest thing since sliced
bread, does.)

My usual weapon of choice is the magic derusting tank, the electrolytic
thing that if you haven't used yet, you should. Basically just take a
large plastic (non-conductive) container, a piece of scrap steel, some
water, and a little bit of washing soda to make the water conductive,
hook your 12V power supply or old battery charger up to the scrap (+ive)
and piece you want to clean up (-ive) let sit for a few hours et voila.
Nothing short of miraculous.

Well, that alone caused an issue, I've been using the crap out of the
thing and I'm nearly out of washing soda. Apparently Ace Hardware is
the ONLY store in my area that sells it anymore - I called or stopped by
all of the grocery stores, big box hardware stores, Target, Wal-Mart,
etc. - no can do. But at least I have some, and also found a pool
supply place that will sell me some soda ash if I go back with a
container (which I probably will, because they're much closer than the
nearest Ace.)

Next issue - the gas tank skid plate. It's far bigger than my
container, and even just the flanges where the rust is won't fit in. So
I figured I'd drop back and mechanically remove as much as I can (angle
grinder, then wire brush) then finish with some phosphoric acid solution
e.g. "Metal Ready" or similar and just use some rust-oleum rusty metal
crap which I normally hate because it's so soft but hey, it's not going
to get damaged and I'll just coat it with roofing tar anyway where it
mates to the frame rails.

Issue: Phosphoric acid, "metal ready" etc. seems to also be similarly
off the shelves of anywhere that I'd expect to find it. I did pick up a
jug of something called "Evapo-Rust" we will see how that works out but
I have to admit that I'm awful skeptical of anything that I haven't used
before because nothing that I've found ever seems to work any better
than the two old reliables, phosphoric acid and the electrolytic tanks.

Where are you guys finding phosphoric acid, or are you all having the
same problems?

I'm starting to think that $250 for a shiny new skid plate, while a lot
of money, might not be exorbitant considering the PITA that this
exercise is turning out to be given all the time that I've spent trying
to find supplies and not waving a spray bomb or turning wrenches...


nate,

There is a thread from a few months ago from Danny D. about removing
rust from tools. Plenty of comments.

Recently did a front 4X4 hub using Loctite EXTEND Rust Neutralizer
from the auto parts store. The hubs were rusty and the EXTEND worked
for me. Then painted them with Rust-Oleum. Rotors and studs are new.
The ABS ring was clean up with gas. New bearings and seals.

Some pics -- before and after

http://i46.tinypic.com/ou5gfa.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/9i4874.jpg

http://tinypic.com/r/28712c/6

http://tinypic.com/r/e8x0m1/6

Good luck

Nate Nagel wrote:
Hi all,

am thrashing on Jeep again... vehicle is mostly rust free
(surprisingly, since it's from PA) but I've started ripping the old rear
bumper and gas tank skid plate off so as to install a new rear bumper
that isn't made from poop and fail, and has proper D-ring tabs and a
Class 3 receiver for it.

So far, I've managed to destroy everything that I needed to and nothing
that I didn't want to, so I've got that going for me.

However, as part of this exercise, me being as I am, all of the little
bits that came off that need to go back on I would like to have cleaned
and painted so that they won't be overly rusty (or just plain gone) in
another 14 years when I take it apart again (or more likely, my cousin's
little son, who thinks this Jeep is the greatest thing since sliced
bread, does.)

My usual weapon of choice is the magic derusting tank, the electrolytic
thing that if you haven't used yet, you should. Basically just take a
large plastic (non-conductive) container, a piece of scrap steel, some
water, and a little bit of washing soda to make the water conductive,
hook your 12V power supply or old battery charger up to the scrap (+ive)
and piece you want to clean up (-ive) let sit for a few hours et voila.
Nothing short of miraculous.

Well, that alone caused an issue, I've been using the crap out of the
thing and I'm nearly out of washing soda. Apparently Ace Hardware is
the ONLY store in my area that sells it anymore - I called or stopped by
all of the grocery stores, big box hardware stores, Target, Wal-Mart,
etc. - no can do. But at least I have some, and also found a pool
supply place that will sell me some soda ash if I go back with a
container (which I probably will, because they're much closer than the
nearest Ace.)

Next issue - the gas tank skid plate. It's far bigger than my
container, and even just the flanges where the rust is won't fit in. So
I figured I'd drop back and mechanically remove as much as I can (angle
grinder, then wire brush) then finish with some phosphoric acid solution
e.g. "Metal Ready" or similar and just use some rust-oleum rusty metal
crap which I normally hate because it's so soft but hey, it's not going
to get damaged and I'll just coat it with roofing tar anyway where it
mates to the frame rails.

Issue: Phosphoric acid, "metal ready" etc. seems to also be similarly
off the shelves of anywhere that I'd expect to find it. I did pick up a
jug of something called "Evapo-Rust" we will see how that works out but
I have to admit that I'm awful skeptical of anything that I haven't used
before because nothing that I've found ever seems to work any better
than the two old reliables, phosphoric acid and the electrolytic tanks.

Where are you guys finding phosphoric acid, or are you all having the
same problems?

I'm starting to think that $250 for a shiny new skid plate, while a lot
of money, might not be exorbitant considering the PITA that this
exercise is turning out to be given all the time that I've spent trying
to find supplies and not waving a spray bomb or turning wrenches...

nate



Nate you have been walking right past TONS of washing soda in the Wal~Mart.
Target as well. It is cleverly hidden though. Go to the pool chemicals and look for a
product called pH Plus. If you want a larger amount hit a pool supply place. It is 99-100%
pure Sodium Carbonate aka Washing Soda aka Soda Ash.

I buy it in 40 pound bags for my tanks.

Phosphoric acid is available at most body shop supply places.
I buy it from a local outfit in plastic 5 gallon pails and mix it down.
I have seen it at the local Home Depot. Sold as a concrete cleaner.

Evapo-Rust works but you need to soak the part in it for it to work very well, and warming
it helps a lot. I use it for small stuff. Doesn't stink like most other methods.


Oh if you want a CHEAP and easy large tank there are a couple options. One buy one of the
cheap kiddie pools and use it. OR take a chunk of pool liner fabric and a few pallets and
toss together a tank. I did this with a small trailer frame. Oh and don't forget you could
do it one half at a time!

--
Steve W.

On 04/02/2013 09:52 PM, Steve W. wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
Hi all,

am thrashing on Jeep again... vehicle is mostly rust free
(surprisingly, since it's from PA) but I've started ripping the old
rear bumper and gas tank skid plate off so as to install a new rear
bumper that isn't made from poop and fail, and has proper D-ring tabs
and a Class 3 receiver for it.

So far, I've managed to destroy everything that I needed to and
nothing that I didn't want to, so I've got that going for me.

However, as part of this exercise, me being as I am, all of the little
bits that came off that need to go back on I would like to have
cleaned and painted so that they won't be overly rusty (or just plain
gone) in another 14 years when I take it apart again (or more likely,
my cousin's little son, who thinks this Jeep is the greatest thing
since sliced bread, does.)

My usual weapon of choice is the magic derusting tank, the
electrolytic thing that if you haven't used yet, you should.
Basically just take a large plastic (non-conductive) container, a
piece of scrap steel, some water, and a little bit of washing soda to
make the water conductive, hook your 12V power supply or old battery
charger up to the scrap (+ive) and piece you want to clean up (-ive)
let sit for a few hours et voila. Nothing short of miraculous.

Well, that alone caused an issue, I've been using the crap out of the
thing and I'm nearly out of washing soda. Apparently Ace Hardware is
the ONLY store in my area that sells it anymore - I called or stopped
by all of the grocery stores, big box hardware stores, Target,
Wal-Mart, etc. - no can do. But at least I have some, and also found
a pool supply place that will sell me some soda ash if I go back with
a container (which I probably will, because they're much closer than
the nearest Ace.)

Next issue - the gas tank skid plate. It's far bigger than my
container, and even just the flanges where the rust is won't fit in.
So I figured I'd drop back and mechanically remove as much as I can
(angle grinder, then wire brush) then finish with some phosphoric acid
solution e.g. "Metal Ready" or similar and just use some rust-oleum
rusty metal crap which I normally hate because it's so soft but hey,
it's not going to get damaged and I'll just coat it with roofing tar
anyway where it mates to the frame rails.

Issue: Phosphoric acid, "metal ready" etc. seems to also be similarly
off the shelves of anywhere that I'd expect to find it. I did pick up
a jug of something called "Evapo-Rust" we will see how that works out
but I have to admit that I'm awful skeptical of anything that I
haven't used before because nothing that I've found ever seems to work
any better than the two old reliables, phosphoric acid and the
electrolytic tanks.

Where are you guys finding phosphoric acid, or are you all having the
same problems?

I'm starting to think that $250 for a shiny new skid plate, while a
lot of money, might not be exorbitant considering the PITA that this
exercise is turning out to be given all the time that I've spent
trying to find supplies and not waving a spray bomb or turning
wrenches...

nate



Nate you have been walking right past TONS of washing soda in the Wal~Mart.
Target as well. It is cleverly hidden though. Go to the pool chemicals
and look for a product called pH Plus. If you want a larger amount hit a
pool supply place. It is 99-100% pure Sodium Carbonate aka Washing Soda
aka Soda Ash.

yeah... local stores don't have pool chemical section. I did find a
local pool supply that will sell me some however so that's fixed, I just
need to run back there someday with a container because the guy was cool
and was going to sell me some but couldn't find anything to put it in.


I buy it in 40 pound bags for my tanks.

Phosphoric acid is available at most body shop supply places.
I buy it from a local outfit in plastic 5 gallon pails and mix it down.
I have seen it at the local Home Depot. Sold as a concrete cleaner.

I've already tried the Despot, my local one doesn't sell it for some
reason. closest auto body supply is about an hour's drive away, but I
might need to make the pilgrimage Theoretically West Marine (not
that much more convenient, about a half hour drive) carries Ospho, but
they're out of stock...


Evapo-Rust works but you need to soak the part in it for it to work very
well, and warming it helps a lot. I use it for small stuff. Doesn't
stink like most other methods.


Oh if you want a CHEAP and easy large tank there are a couple options.
One buy one of the cheap kiddie pools and use it. OR take a chunk of
pool liner fabric and a few pallets and toss together a tank. I did this
with a small trailer frame. Oh and don't forget you could do it one half
at a time!

yeah I know but currently I'm renting so this might cause issues...

I'm still surprised that this is so hard to pull together... doesn't
anyone work on their own stuff and clean and paint as they go anymore?

Honestly, I was thinking this would be one of those deals, run to the
store, pick up some Ospho, brush, rinse, rattle can, done. Not so much...

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 19:40:02 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Hi all,

am thrashing on Jeep again... vehicle is mostly rust free
(surprisingly, since it's from PA) but I've started ripping the old rear
bumper and gas tank skid plate off so as to install a new rear bumper
that isn't made from poop and fail, and has proper D-ring tabs and a
Class 3 receiver for it.

So far, I've managed to destroy everything that I needed to and nothing
that I didn't want to, so I've got that going for me.

However, as part of this exercise, me being as I am, all of the little
bits that came off that need to go back on I would like to have cleaned
and painted so that they won't be overly rusty (or just plain gone) in
another 14 years when I take it apart again (or more likely, my cousin's
little son, who thinks this Jeep is the greatest thing since sliced
bread, does.)

My usual weapon of choice is the magic derusting tank, the electrolytic
thing that if you haven't used yet, you should. Basically just take a
large plastic (non-conductive) container, a piece of scrap steel, some
water, and a little bit of washing soda to make the water conductive,
hook your 12V power supply or old battery charger up to the scrap (+ive)
and piece you want to clean up (-ive) let sit for a few hours et voila.
Nothing short of miraculous.

Well, that alone caused an issue, I've been using the crap out of the
thing and I'm nearly out of washing soda. Apparently Ace Hardware is
the ONLY store in my area that sells it anymore - I called or stopped by
all of the grocery stores, big box hardware stores, Target, Wal-Mart,
etc. - no can do. But at least I have some, and also found a pool
supply place that will sell me some soda ash if I go back with a
container (which I probably will, because they're much closer than the
nearest Ace.)

Next issue - the gas tank skid plate. It's far bigger than my
container, and even just the flanges where the rust is won't fit in. So
I figured I'd drop back and mechanically remove as much as I can (angle
grinder, then wire brush) then finish with some phosphoric acid solution
e.g. "Metal Ready" or similar and just use some rust-oleum rusty metal
crap which I normally hate because it's so soft but hey, it's not going
to get damaged and I'll just coat it with roofing tar anyway where it
mates to the frame rails.

Issue: Phosphoric acid, "metal ready" etc. seems to also be similarly
off the shelves of anywhere that I'd expect to find it. I did pick up a
jug of something called "Evapo-Rust" we will see how that works out but
I have to admit that I'm awful skeptical of anything that I haven't used
before because nothing that I've found ever seems to work any better
than the two old reliables, phosphoric acid and the electrolytic tanks.

Where are you guys finding phosphoric acid, or are you all having the
same problems?

I'm starting to think that $250 for a shiny new skid plate, while a lot
of money, might not be exorbitant considering the PITA that this
exercise is turning out to be given all the time that I've spent trying
to find supplies and not waving a spray bomb or turning wrenches...

nate


I've used quite a bit of
http://www.duplicolor.com/products/rustFix/
spray. I usually clean off the surface of loose rust before spraying
but I've also used it to spray into areas that just can't be gotten
to. On metal that I've cleaned pretty well first it will leave a
purplish hue. On rust it does turn it more or less black. It's some
sort of clear "paint" with phosphoric acid or something like that
mixed in. Smells different then typical spray paint. One fuzzy rust
you need several applications. You can spray regular paint over it.

On 04/02/2013 08:22 PM, Oren wrote:
On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 19:40:02 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Hi all,

am thrashing on Jeep again... vehicle is mostly rust free
(surprisingly, since it's from PA) but I've started ripping the old rear
bumper and gas tank skid plate off so as to install a new rear bumper
that isn't made from poop and fail, and has proper D-ring tabs and a
Class 3 receiver for it.

So far, I've managed to destroy everything that I needed to and nothing
that I didn't want to, so I've got that going for me.

However, as part of this exercise, me being as I am, all of the little
bits that came off that need to go back on I would like to have cleaned
and painted so that they won't be overly rusty (or just plain gone) in
another 14 years when I take it apart again (or more likely, my cousin's
little son, who thinks this Jeep is the greatest thing since sliced
bread, does.)

My usual weapon of choice is the magic derusting tank, the electrolytic
thing that if you haven't used yet, you should. Basically just take a
large plastic (non-conductive) container, a piece of scrap steel, some
water, and a little bit of washing soda to make the water conductive,
hook your 12V power supply or old battery charger up to the scrap (+ive)
and piece you want to clean up (-ive) let sit for a few hours et voila.
Nothing short of miraculous.

Well, that alone caused an issue, I've been using the crap out of the
thing and I'm nearly out of washing soda. Apparently Ace Hardware is
the ONLY store in my area that sells it anymore - I called or stopped by
all of the grocery stores, big box hardware stores, Target, Wal-Mart,
etc. - no can do. But at least I have some, and also found a pool
supply place that will sell me some soda ash if I go back with a
container (which I probably will, because they're much closer than the
nearest Ace.)

Next issue - the gas tank skid plate. It's far bigger than my
container, and even just the flanges where the rust is won't fit in. So
I figured I'd drop back and mechanically remove as much as I can (angle
grinder, then wire brush) then finish with some phosphoric acid solution
e.g. "Metal Ready" or similar and just use some rust-oleum rusty metal
crap which I normally hate because it's so soft but hey, it's not going
to get damaged and I'll just coat it with roofing tar anyway where it
mates to the frame rails.

Issue: Phosphoric acid, "metal ready" etc. seems to also be similarly
off the shelves of anywhere that I'd expect to find it. I did pick up a
jug of something called "Evapo-Rust" we will see how that works out but
I have to admit that I'm awful skeptical of anything that I haven't used
before because nothing that I've found ever seems to work any better
than the two old reliables, phosphoric acid and the electrolytic tanks.

Where are you guys finding phosphoric acid, or are you all having the
same problems?

I'm starting to think that $250 for a shiny new skid plate, while a lot
of money, might not be exorbitant considering the PITA that this
exercise is turning out to be given all the time that I've spent trying
to find supplies and not waving a spray bomb or turning wrenches...


nate,

There is a thread from a few months ago from Danny D. about removing
rust from tools. Plenty of comments.

Recently did a front 4X4 hub using Loctite EXTEND Rust Neutralizer
from the auto parts store. The hubs were rusty and the EXTEND worked
for me. Then painted them with Rust-Oleum. Rotors and studs are new.
The ABS ring was clean up with gas. New bearings and seals.

Some pics -- before and after

http://i46.tinypic.com/ou5gfa.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/9i4874.jpg

http://tinypic.com/r/28712c/6

http://tinypic.com/r/e8x0m1/6

Good luck


Hah, those parts look clean to me in the "before" pictures... you don't
live in PA do you?

But I think I will go back to Autozone and see if they have some of that
stuff because I can't seem to get any of my old standbys locally and the
"Evapo-Rust" doesn't seem to have done much of anything overnight,
probably because it's so damn cold here. I've been leaving parts inside
then taking them out to spray them and putting them back inside to
dry... the basement is a disaster right now... are we ever going to get
spring? I'm not sure it got over 40 degrees yesterday...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Apr 2, 7:40*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:

I'm starting to think that $250 for a shiny new skid plate, while a lot
of money, might not be exorbitant considering the PITA that this
exercise is turning out to be given all the time that I've spent trying
to find supplies and not waving a spray bomb or turning wrenches...

I'd think a man of your purported experience would have foreseen that,
not to mention the folly of restoring an underbody wear item.

Your issues suggest an episode of The Andy Griffith Show where Barney
finds Usenet.

How you found a pool supply that doesn't sell sodium carbonate in
containers is, of course, only par for your typical anecdotal tales of
extraordinary circumstances.
-----

- gpsman

On 04/03/2013 11:44 AM, gpsman wrote:
On Apr 2, 7:40 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:

I'm starting to think that $250 for a shiny new skid plate, while a lot
of money, might not be exorbitant considering the PITA that this
exercise is turning out to be given all the time that I've spent trying
to find supplies and not waving a spray bomb or turning wrenches...

I'd think a man of your purported experience would have foreseen that,
not to mention the folly of restoring an underbody wear item.

If I don't "restore" everything then what do I do?

Buy a whole new vehicle?

Are you volunteering to make the payments?

Oh, wait, there's not even a comparable vehicle made today, at least not
by Jeep... but if you'd like to buy me a Land Rover or something like
that...

Every part that I've unbolted has cleaned up quite nicely save for one
little sheetmetal shield (likely uncoated from the factory) which was $8
and change for a new one and aforementioned skid plate simply because
it's too big to fit in the magic tank - which has done an admirable job
on everything else.

Your issues suggest an episode of The Andy Griffith Show where Barney
finds Usenet.

It's more that I'm used to living in an area where my local hardware
store doesn't give me blank stares when I ask for normal things like
washing soda or Ospho. Sadly, that store is now not only four hours
away but also has been out of business for several years. One would
think that living in a major metropolitan area would make items easier
to obtain, not harder - and yet as time goes by I find myself having to
plan ahead and order online more and more common items that you just
can't get in stores.

How you found a pool supply that doesn't sell sodium carbonate in
containers is, of course, only par for your typical anecdotal tales of
extraordinary circumstances.

Are you accusing me of lying, oh ye of limited intelligence?

The guy's exact quote was "we don't typically sell it to customers, we
just use it on our mobile service trucks - but if you come back with a
container I'll hook you up."

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 10:05:35 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:


Some pics -- before and after

http://i46.tinypic.com/ou5gfa.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/9i4874.jpg

http://tinypic.com/r/28712c/6

http://tinypic.com/r/e8x0m1/6

Good luck


Hah, those parts look clean to me in the "before" pictures... you don't
live in PA do you?


I did. Bought the truck there, but moved West before salt was put on
the roads. It was a mild winter that year.

But I think I will go back to Autozone and see if they have some of that
stuff because I can't seem to get any of my old standbys locally and the
"Evapo-Rust" doesn't seem to have done much of anything overnight,
probably because it's so damn cold here. I've been leaving parts inside
then taking them out to spray them and putting them back inside to
dry... the basement is a disaster right now... are we ever going to get
spring? I'm not sure it got over 40 degrees yesterday...

nate

Autozone carries the Loctite EXTEND Rust Neutralizer. It converts the
rust to a paintable surface.

You got me interested in the electrolysis for de-rusting. I went
looking and found a video that was interesting; regarding the anode.
He was using graphite carbon which is said to be "an almost
non-sacrificial anode". Much cleaner without such a scum mess.

Don't let this ol' man from east Arkansas fool you. GRIN

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOx5URgjTiU

On 04/03/2013 12:22 PM, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 10:05:35 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:


Some pics -- before and after

http://i46.tinypic.com/ou5gfa.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/9i4874.jpg

http://tinypic.com/r/28712c/6

http://tinypic.com/r/e8x0m1/6

Good luck


Hah, those parts look clean to me in the "before" pictures... you don't
live in PA do you?


I did. Bought the truck there, but moved West before salt was put on
the roads. It was a mild winter that year.

But I think I will go back to Autozone and see if they have some of that
stuff because I can't seem to get any of my old standbys locally and the
"Evapo-Rust" doesn't seem to have done much of anything overnight,
probably because it's so damn cold here. I've been leaving parts inside
then taking them out to spray them and putting them back inside to
dry... the basement is a disaster right now... are we ever going to get
spring? I'm not sure it got over 40 degrees yesterday...

nate

Autozone carries the Loctite EXTEND Rust Neutralizer. It converts the
rust to a paintable surface.

They had some Plasti-Dip product that appeared similar. Actually seemed
to work very similar to Ospho but with more solids, and in an aerosol
can rather than a gallon jug, and of course at about 4x the price per
volume. Will it work? Ask me in 15 years or so. Already painted the
skid plate, I'm beyond sick of f**king with this.

To add insult to injury there is some issue with the rear x-member for
the bumper and my particular gas tank so I'm probably going to have to
do some fabricating for one bracket; unfortunately it's right behind the
receiver and is the means that the receiver ties into a piece of heavy
square steel tube, so I'm not real comfortable just hacking it off and
leaving it off. I'm not mad at the guy who made the bumper for me as
it's fantastic other than this one issue, but clearly he used a vehicle
with a different tank for the pattern. So now I need to be nice to my
friend that has the shop, and hope that his welder isn't a complete
piece of garbage (as I expect that it is...)


You got me interested in the electrolysis for de-rusting. I went
looking and found a video that was interesting; regarding the anode.
He was using graphite carbon which is said to be "an almost
non-sacrificial anode". Much cleaner without such a scum mess.

Don't let this ol' man from east Arkansas fool you. GRIN

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOx5URgjTiU


interesting. I've just been using an old piece of sprinkler pipe, other
than that my setup looks very similar except I'm using a 16 (?) gallon
plastic tote rather than a 5 gallon bucket. Works fantastical, although
the water does get scummy very quickly (although it doesn't hurt the
parts at all.)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 13:59:11 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

You got me interested in the electrolysis for de-rusting. I went
looking and found a video that was interesting; regarding the anode.
He was using graphite carbon which is said to be "an almost
non-sacrificial anode". Much cleaner without such a scum mess.

Don't let this ol' man from east Arkansas fool you. GRIN

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOx5URgjTiU


interesting. I've just been using an old piece of sprinkler pipe, other
than that my setup looks very similar except I'm using a 16 (?) gallon
plastic tote rather than a 5 gallon bucket. Works fantastical, although
the water does get scummy very quickly (although it doesn't hurt the
parts at all.)

I priced graphite carbon stock at McMaster-Carr. Yikes! I have
everything to make this "magic tank" except, I'll pick up some rebar
stock at HD to use instead.

Plan to use it for a cast iron Dutch oven and some tools that need
cleaning and de-rusting....

On 04/03/2013 02:48 PM, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 13:59:11 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

You got me interested in the electrolysis for de-rusting. I went
looking and found a video that was interesting; regarding the anode.
He was using graphite carbon which is said to be "an almost
non-sacrificial anode". Much cleaner without such a scum mess.

Don't let this ol' man from east Arkansas fool you. GRIN

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOx5URgjTiU


interesting. I've just been using an old piece of sprinkler pipe, other
than that my setup looks very similar except I'm using a 16 (?) gallon
plastic tote rather than a 5 gallon bucket. Works fantastical, although
the water does get scummy very quickly (although it doesn't hurt the
parts at all.)

I priced graphite carbon stock at McMaster-Carr. Yikes! I have
everything to make this "magic tank" except, I'll pick up some rebar
stock at HD to use instead.

Plan to use it for a cast iron Dutch oven and some tools that need
cleaning and de-rusting....


just keep in mind that the parts coming out will be super-clean -
meaning that they will need to be coated with something almost
immediately otherwise they'll rust worse than before. Not a problem
with car parts where they get a coat of paint, but could be a problem
with tools etc. Dutch oven, no big deal, season as you would any other
cookware.

Oven cleaner makes a nice first step cleaner BTW...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 10:05:35 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 04/02/2013 08:22 PM, Oren wrote:
On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 19:40:02 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Hi all,

am thrashing on Jeep again... vehicle is mostly rust free
(surprisingly, since it's from PA) but I've started ripping the old rear
bumper and gas tank skid plate off so as to install a new rear bumper
that isn't made from poop and fail, and has proper D-ring tabs and a
Class 3 receiver for it.

So far, I've managed to destroy everything that I needed to and nothing
that I didn't want to, so I've got that going for me.

However, as part of this exercise, me being as I am, all of the little
bits that came off that need to go back on I would like to have cleaned
and painted so that they won't be overly rusty (or just plain gone) in
another 14 years when I take it apart again (or more likely, my cousin's
little son, who thinks this Jeep is the greatest thing since sliced
bread, does.)

My usual weapon of choice is the magic derusting tank, the electrolytic
thing that if you haven't used yet, you should. Basically just take a
large plastic (non-conductive) container, a piece of scrap steel, some
water, and a little bit of washing soda to make the water conductive,
hook your 12V power supply or old battery charger up to the scrap (+ive)
and piece you want to clean up (-ive) let sit for a few hours et voila.
Nothing short of miraculous.

Well, that alone caused an issue, I've been using the crap out of the
thing and I'm nearly out of washing soda. Apparently Ace Hardware is
the ONLY store in my area that sells it anymore - I called or stopped by
all of the grocery stores, big box hardware stores, Target, Wal-Mart,
etc. - no can do. But at least I have some, and also found a pool
supply place that will sell me some soda ash if I go back with a
container (which I probably will, because they're much closer than the
nearest Ace.)

Next issue - the gas tank skid plate. It's far bigger than my
container, and even just the flanges where the rust is won't fit in. So
I figured I'd drop back and mechanically remove as much as I can (angle
grinder, then wire brush) then finish with some phosphoric acid solution
e.g. "Metal Ready" or similar and just use some rust-oleum rusty metal
crap which I normally hate because it's so soft but hey, it's not going
to get damaged and I'll just coat it with roofing tar anyway where it
mates to the frame rails.

Issue: Phosphoric acid, "metal ready" etc. seems to also be similarly
off the shelves of anywhere that I'd expect to find it. I did pick up a
jug of something called "Evapo-Rust" we will see how that works out but
I have to admit that I'm awful skeptical of anything that I haven't used
before because nothing that I've found ever seems to work any better
than the two old reliables, phosphoric acid and the electrolytic tanks.

Where are you guys finding phosphoric acid, or are you all having the
same problems?

I'm starting to think that $250 for a shiny new skid plate, while a lot
of money, might not be exorbitant considering the PITA that this
exercise is turning out to be given all the time that I've spent trying
to find supplies and not waving a spray bomb or turning wrenches...


nate,

There is a thread from a few months ago from Danny D. about removing
rust from tools. Plenty of comments.

Recently did a front 4X4 hub using Loctite EXTEND Rust Neutralizer
from the auto parts store. The hubs were rusty and the EXTEND worked
for me. Then painted them with Rust-Oleum. Rotors and studs are new.
The ABS ring was clean up with gas. New bearings and seals.

Some pics -- before and after

http://i46.tinypic.com/ou5gfa.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/9i4874.jpg

http://tinypic.com/r/28712c/6

http://tinypic.com/r/e8x0m1/6

Good luck


Hah, those parts look clean to me in the "before" pictures... you don't
live in PA do you?

But I think I will go back to Autozone and see if they have some of that
stuff because I can't seem to get any of my old standbys locally and the
"Evapo-Rust" doesn't seem to have done much of anything overnight,
probably because it's so damn cold here. I've been leaving parts inside
then taking them out to spray them and putting them back inside to
dry... the basement is a disaster right now... are we ever going to get
spring? I'm not sure it got over 40 degrees yesterday...

nate


I tried some evap o rust and wasn't impressed. Maybe I should have
heated it. None of the stuff I used it on came out clean enough to use
without wire wheeling it anyway and the stuff was pretty pricey and
seem to loose it's power pretty fast.

On Wednesday, April 3, 2013 10:05:35 AM UTC-4, Nate Nagel wrote:
"Evapo-Rust" doesn't seem to have done much of anything overnight,
probably because it's so damn cold here. I've been leaving parts inside
then taking them out to spray them and putting them back inside to
dry...

The Evapo-Rust product I'm familiar with comes in quart or gallon jugs, and the part needs to be SUBMERGED in it, similar to the electrolysis tank.

Yeah the washing soda and phosphoric acid are getting harder to find due to environmental regulations.

Believe it or not BAKING soda is a workable substitute in the electrolysis tank.

Basically if it don't fit in the tank, you need a bigger tank.

On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 14:57:33 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Plan to use it for a cast iron Dutch oven and some tools that need
cleaning and de-rusting....


just keep in mind that the parts coming out will be super-clean -
meaning that they will need to be coated with something almost
immediately otherwise they'll rust worse than before. Not a problem
with car parts where they get a coat of paint, but could be a problem
with tools etc. Dutch oven, no big deal, season as you would any other
cookware.


I'm familiar with seasoning the cast iron. I suppose with tools some
heat from a heat gun can extract and dry the water when done
immediately or placed in an oven. One video I saw, a guy was
restoring an old wood hand plane. He suggested coating it with wax of
some sort to stop new rust after a good drying.

Oven cleaner makes a nice first step cleaner BTW...

I have a partial can I'll try. Thanks.

On Apr 3, 12:19*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 04/03/2013 11:44 AM, gpsman wrote:
On Apr 2, 7:40 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:

I'm starting to think that $250 for a shiny new skid plate, while a lot
of money, might not be exorbitant considering the PITA that this
exercise is turning out to be given all the time that I've spent trying
to find supplies and not waving a spray bomb or turning wrenches...

I'd think a man of your purported experience would have foreseen that,
not to mention the folly of restoring an underbody wear item.

If I don't "restore" everything then what do I do?

Buy a whole new vehicle?

Are you volunteering to make the payments?

Nice red herring/straw man.

From: Nate Nagel
Newsgroups: alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Subject: what are you guys using for rust removal/paint prep?
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 19:40:02 -0400

"am thrashing on Jeep again... vehicle is mostly rust free..."

"I'm starting to think that $250 for a shiny new skid plate, while a
lot of money, might not be exorbitant considering the PITA that this
exercise is turning out to be..."

Oh, wait, there's not even a comparable vehicle made today, at least not
by Jeep...

Attaboy. Whip out your old standby, the old extraordinary
circumstance; you're a helpless victim to the inadequacies of every
vehicle that is not identical to yours... despite its inadequacies:

"I've started ripping the old rear bumper and gas tank skid plate off
so as to install a new rear bumper that isn't made from poop and
fail..."

Every part that I've unbolted has cleaned up quite nicely save for one
little sheetmetal shield (likely uncoated from the factory) which was $8
and change for a new one and aforementioned skid plate simply because
it's too big to fit in the magic tank - which has done an admirable job
on everything else.

Fascinating. For some odd reason that paragraph doesn't address the
folly of restoring an underbody wear item...

Your issues suggest an episode of The Andy Griffith Show where Barney
finds Usenet.

It's more that I'm used to living in an area where my local hardware
store doesn't give me blank stares when I ask for normal things like
washing soda or Ospho. *Sadly, that store is now not only four hours
away but also has been out of business for several years.

That makes a lot of sense, Barn. You last lived in Falls Church VA,
and purport to still be accustomed to a store that has been out of
business for several years.

*One would
think that living in a major metropolitan area would make items easier
to obtain, not harder - and yet as time goes by I find myself having to
plan ahead and order online more and more common items that you just
can't get in stores.

Whadaya know, there's your anecdotal evidence things change:

From: Nate Nagel
Newsgroups: alt.home.repair
Subject: OT: Red Light Camera Ticket
Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 21:28:17 -0400

"Does the truth really change over time?"
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...n&dmode=source

How you found a pool supply that doesn't sell sodium carbonate in
containers is, of course, only par for your typical anecdotal tales of
extraordinary circumstances.

Are you accusing me of lying, oh ye of limited intelligence?

Duh.

The guy's exact quote was "we don't typically sell it to customers, we
just use it on our mobile service trucks - but if you come back with a
container I'll hook you up."

What business doesn't receive some goods in boxes that would serve as
a container... or doesn't have/is near a garbage receptacle with a
couple discarded fast food sacks...?

For a genius you sure don't seem to have much in the way of realistic
imagination. I guess you keep it busy imagining why nothing is ever
your fault.
-----

- gpsman

On 04/04/2013 08:57 AM, gpsman wrote:


Fascinating. For some odd reason that paragraph doesn't address the
folly of restoring an underbody wear item...

Says it all, the idiot considers a SKID PLATE - an item that is
basically steel plates formed and welded together - a "wear item."

Brakes are "wear items." Bearings are "wear items." U-joints are "wear
items." A SKID PLATE??? Is... NOT a wear item.

What the **** color is the sky in your world?

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

In article ,
Nate Nagel wrote:
On 04/04/2013 08:57 AM, gpsman wrote:


Fascinating. For some odd reason that paragraph doesn't address the
folly of restoring an underbody wear item...

Says it all, the idiot considers a SKID PLATE - an item that is
basically steel plates formed and welded together - a "wear item."

Brakes are "wear items." Bearings are "wear items." U-joints are "wear
items." A SKID PLATE??? Is... NOT a wear item.

It's an American car. The whole car is a wear item. Has the "Replace
car soon" light come on the dashboard yet?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 04/04/2013 02:58 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article ,
Nate Nagel wrote:
On 04/04/2013 08:57 AM, gpsman wrote:


Fascinating. For some odd reason that paragraph doesn't address the
folly of restoring an underbody wear item...

Says it all, the idiot considers a SKID PLATE - an item that is
basically steel plates formed and welded together - a "wear item."

Brakes are "wear items." Bearings are "wear items." U-joints are "wear
items." A SKID PLATE??? Is... NOT a wear item.

It's an American car. The whole car is a wear item. Has the "Replace
car soon" light come on the dashboard yet?
--scott


Balls! You know that I'm definitely not an American car partisan, but I
have to agree with Robert Cumberford and state that somehow AMC/Renault
screwed up and actually managed to create a future classic (or is it one
already?) with this one. The original engine options were fairly
uninspiring (especially the GM 2.8 V-6) but once they introduced the 4.0
it was a pretty nice ride, with lots of potential for even more
improvement if you were so inclined (and lots of people seem to have been.)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:
Hi all,

am thrashing on Jeep again... vehicle is mostly rust free
(surprisingly, since it's from PA) but I've started ripping the old
rear bumper and gas tank skid plate off so as to install a new rear
bumper that isn't made from poop and fail, and has proper D-ring tabs
and a Class 3 receiver for it.

So far, I've managed to destroy everything that I needed to and
nothing that I didn't want to, so I've got that going for me.

However, as part of this exercise, me being as I am, all of the little
bits that came off that need to go back on I would like to have
cleaned and painted so that they won't be overly rusty (or just plain
gone) in another 14 years when I take it apart again (or more likely,
my cousin's little son, who thinks this Jeep is the greatest thing
since sliced bread, does.)

My usual weapon of choice is the magic derusting tank, the
electrolytic thing that if you haven't used yet, you should. Basically
just take a large plastic (non-conductive) container, a
piece of scrap steel, some water, and a little bit of washing soda to
make the water conductive, hook your 12V power supply or old battery
charger up to the scrap (+ive) and piece you want to clean up (-ive)
let sit for a few hours et voila. Nothing short of miraculous.

Well, that alone caused an issue, I've been using the crap out of the
thing and I'm nearly out of washing soda. Apparently Ace Hardware is
the ONLY store in my area that sells it anymore - I called or stopped
by all of the grocery stores, big box hardware stores, Target,
Wal-Mart, etc. - no can do. But at least I have some, and also found
a pool supply place that will sell me some soda ash if I go back with
a container (which I probably will, because they're much closer than
the nearest Ace.)

Next issue - the gas tank skid plate. It's far bigger than my
container, and even just the flanges where the rust is won't fit in. So I
figured I'd drop back and mechanically remove as much as I can
(angle grinder, then wire brush) then finish with some phosphoric
acid solution e.g. "Metal Ready" or similar and just use some
rust-oleum rusty metal crap which I normally hate because it's so
soft but hey, it's not going to get damaged and I'll just coat it
with roofing tar anyway where it mates to the frame rails.

Issue: Phosphoric acid, "metal ready" etc. seems to also be similarly
off the shelves of anywhere that I'd expect to find it. I did pick
up a jug of something called "Evapo-Rust" we will see how that works
out but I have to admit that I'm awful skeptical of anything that I
haven't used before because nothing that I've found ever seems to
work any better than the two old reliables, phosphoric acid and the
electrolytic tanks.
Where are you guys finding phosphoric acid, or are you all having the
same problems?

I'm starting to think that $250 for a shiny new skid plate, while a
lot of money, might not be exorbitant considering the PITA that this
exercise is turning out to be given all the time that I've spent
trying to find supplies and not waving a spray bomb or turning
wrenches...

Naval Jelly?

Naval Jelly converts Iron Oxide (the reddish-brown stuff) to Ferric
Phosphate (black). After conversion, the ferric oxide coating can be
scrubbed off leaving the bare metal.

LOCTITE (and others) makes it. Look for it in the paint department (except
at Home Depot).

In message , HeyBub
writes
Naval Jelly converts Iron Oxide (the reddish-brown stuff) to Ferric
Phosphate (black). After conversion, the ferric oxide coating can be
scrubbed off leaving the bare metal.
Paint on neat Phosphoric acid and you'll get iron phosphate which is
good at stopping further rust (it makes an air tight seal) and you can
paint directly over it.
--
Clive

[snip]
*A SKID PLATE??? *Is... NOT a wear item.

It is on my A4. It sits about 4" off the ground and I hear it
scrubbing
on snow piles regularly :-[.
But not on a jeep, I guess unless you find
some deep **** to rub the plates against which is a challenge
in kaulifornia and I guess in a lot of other lower states.

So it all depends on the typical usecases the car is put through
and the amount of snow control chemicals present in the region
the car is swimming through during winter.