I need to add a gfi outlet to my wifes bathroom. I want to add it to the current light switch box. This box currently has two switches, one for the fan,light and one for the vanity light. Each switch has a white wire, a black wire, and a ground. When checking with a voltmeter, the white wire on both switches always has power. Each black wire only has power when the switch is turned on. I am assuming the white wire is the power wire. Can I take these white wires off the switches, connect them to the top and bottom "hot" terminal on the gfi outlet, then feed the switches from both terminals on the other side of the gfi? When I did this messing around with the switches, everything worked properly. I just thought that the black wire was always the constant power wire.

On Mar 25, 8:34*am, wrote:
I need to add a gfi outlet to my wifes bathroom. I want to add it to the current light switch box. This box currently has two switches, one for the fan,light and one for the vanity light. Each switch has a white wire, a black wire, and a ground. When checking with a voltmeter, the white wire on both switches always has power. Each black wire only has power when the switch is turned on. I am assuming the white wire is the power wire. Can I take these white wires off the switches, connect them to the top and bottom "hot" terminal on the gfi outlet, then feed the switches from both terminals on the other side of the gfi? When I did this messing around with the switches, everything worked properly. I just thought that the black wire was always the constant power wire.

First, this sounds like a hack job done by someone clueless.
The white wires should be the neutrals, not the hots. If they
area as you say, I would put white tape on the ends to identify them.
Next, the GFI needs a hot and a neutral for
the circuit is protecting. You only take one hot, one neutral,
and a ground over to it. If all you want protected by GFI is the new
outlet, that is all that is required. If other outlets are fed by
that circuit and you want to protect them and/or the light switch,
light, etc
then you could bring the downstream gfi protected side of
the gfi back to power the existing switch or switches.

But there are some caveats here. Whatever the GFI
protects, both the hot and neutral for that must be coming
off the GFI. Both of those switches are probably on the
same circuit, but you need to verify what is feeding what
and make sure it's done correctly.

They bothe have their own hot wire to it. The bot are tuned off by the same breaker. That much I know. I kind of thought what you said. I just wanted to tripple check.

And yes it must have been a hack job. I also noticed that one of the switches was grounded and the other one was not.


On Monday, March 25, 2013 7:34:48 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I need to add a gfi outlet to my wifes bathroom. I want to add it to the current light switch box. This box currently has two switches, one for the fan,light and one for the vanity light. Each switch has a white wire, a black wire, and a ground. When checking with a voltmeter, the white wire on both switches always has power. Each black wire only has power when the switch is turned on. I am assuming the white wire is the power wire. Can I take these white wires off the switches, connect them to the top and bottom "hot" terminal on the gfi outlet, then feed the switches from both terminals on the other side of the gfi? When I did this messing around with the switches, everything worked properly. I just thought that the black wire was always the constant power wire.

On Mar 25, 9:02*am, "
wrote:
On Mar 25, 8:34*am, wrote:

I need to add a gfi outlet to my wifes bathroom. I want to add it to the current light switch box. This box currently has two switches, one for the fan,light and one for the vanity light. Each switch has a white wire, a black wire, and a ground. When checking with a voltmeter, the white wire on both switches always has power. Each black wire only has power when the switch is turned on. I am assuming the white wire is the power wire. Can I take these white wires off the switches, connect them to the top and bottom "hot" terminal on the gfi outlet, then feed the switches from both terminals on the other side of the gfi? When I did this messing around with the switches, everything worked properly. I just thought that the black wire was always the constant power wire.

First, this sounds like a hack job done by someone clueless.
The white wires should be the neutrals, not the hots.

Why do you say this is "hack job"?

If the power for the fan comes into the fixture and the power to the
vanity light comes into the vanity fixture, then it is code compliant
to use a single run of romex to bring the hot to the switch box and
back to the fixture. The switch switches the hot as it should be done.
Granted, the white at the switch should be marked with *black* tape or
marker to designate it as a hot, but there is nothing wrong with how
the switches are wired.

That configuration, albeit for a single switch, is shown he

http://i.stack.imgur.com/ZUimx.jpg

That said, without a neutral to the GFCI, it won't do it's job, which
is to monitor the current on both the hot and the neutral.

When the OP says "When I did this messing around with the switches,
everything worked properly" I'm not surprised that the switches still
worked since the hot was probably being passed through the GFCI from
the Line terminals to the Load terminals and then to the switches, but
I would be surprised if the GFCI worked as an actual receptacle
without a neutral.


*If they
area as you say, I would put white tape on the ends to identify them.

White tape on a white wire? Why?


Next, the GFI needs a hot and a neutral for
the circuit is protecting. *You only take one hot, one neutral,
and a ground over to it. * If all you want protected by GFI is the new
outlet, that is all that is required. *If other outlets are fed by
that circuit and you want to protect them and/or the light switch,
light, etc
then you could bring the downstream gfi protected side of
the gfi back to power the existing switch or switches.

But there are some caveats here. *Whatever the GFI
protects, both the hot and neutral for that must be coming
off the GFI. *Both of those switches are probably on the
same circuit, but you need to verify what is feeding what
and make sure it's done correctly.

On Mar 25, 10:05*am, bud-- wrote:
On 3/25/2013 7:29 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:





On Mar 25, 9:02 am,
wrote:
On Mar 25, 8:34 am, wrote:

I need to add a gfi outlet to my wifes bathroom. I want to add it to the current light switch box. This box currently has two switches, one for the fan,light and one for the vanity light. Each switch has a white wire, a black wire, and a ground. When checking with a voltmeter, the white wire on both switches always has power. Each black wire only has power when the switch is turned on. I am assuming the white wire is the power wire. Can I take these white wires off the switches, connect them to the top and bottom "hot" terminal on the gfi outlet, then feed the switches from both terminals on the other side of the gfi? When I did this messing around with the switches, everything worked properly. I just thought that the black wire was always the constant power wire.

First, this sounds like a hack job done by someone clueless.
The white wires should be the neutrals, not the hots.

Why do you say this is "hack job"?

If the power for the fan comes into the fixture and the power to the
vanity light comes into the vanity fixture, then it is code compliant
to use a single run of romex to bring the hot to the switch box and
back to the fixture. The switch switches the hot as it should be done.
Granted, the white at the switch should be marked with *black* tape or
marker to designate it as a hot, but there is nothing wrong with how
the switches are wired.

The NEC used to allow using the white as the power feed to switches
without remarking the wire to black (or some other appropriate color).



That configuration, albeit for a single switch, is shown he

http://i.stack.imgur.com/ZUimx.jpg

That is the way the NEC wants it done now (and was a good idea before).

I've marked the white hot with black since I wired my first circuit
about 30 years ago. I don't recall where I read about marking it, or
whether it was just a "suggestion" at the time, but it made so much
sense - especially in a fixture box where the white wire is wire
nutted to the black wires. It eliminates so much confusion and
assumptions.




That said, without a neutral to the GFCI, it won't do it's job, which
is to monitor the current on both the hot and the neutral.

I agree that there does not appear to be a neutral, and a GFCI won't work..

==================================
If switches are in a metal box they do not have to have a ground wire
attached to them. The requirement for a ground wire in a plastic box is
a relatively recent addition. (The grounding of the switch is in case a
metal plate is used.)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So there is not a way to make a gfci work with this set up?

On Monday, March 25, 2013 7:34:48 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I need to add a gfi outlet to my wifes bathroom. I want to add it to the current light switch box. This box currently has two switches, one for the fan,light and one for the vanity light. Each switch has a white wire, a black wire, and a ground. When checking with a voltmeter, the white wire on both switches always has power. Each black wire only has power when the switch is turned on. I am assuming the white wire is the power wire. Can I take these white wires off the switches, connect them to the top and bottom "hot" terminal on the gfi outlet, then feed the switches from both terminals on the other side of the gfi? When I did this messing around with the switches, everything worked properly. I just thought that the black wire was always the constant power wire.

On Mar 25, 9:29*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Mar 25, 9:02*am, "
wrote:

On Mar 25, 8:34*am, wrote:

I need to add a gfi outlet to my wifes bathroom. I want to add it to the current light switch box. This box currently has two switches, one for the fan,light and one for the vanity light. Each switch has a white wire, a black wire, and a ground. When checking with a voltmeter, the white wire on both switches always has power. Each black wire only has power when the switch is turned on. I am assuming the white wire is the power wire. Can I take these white wires off the switches, connect them to the top and bottom "hot" terminal on the gfi outlet, then feed the switches from both terminals on the other side of the gfi? When I did this messing around with the switches, everything worked properly. I just thought that the black wire was always the constant power wire.

First, this sounds like a hack job done by someone clueless.
The white wires should be the neutrals, not the hots.

Why do you say this is "hack job"?

If the power for the fan comes into the fixture and the power to the
vanity light comes into the vanity fixture, then it is code compliant
to use a single run of romex to bring the hot to the switch box and
back to the fixture.

Yes it is. But I would use the black in the Romex for the wire
that is going to be hot whenever the circuit breaker is on and
re-label the white in the Romex for the path connecting the
the other side of the switch. As is, they have a white that is
hot with no marking.



The switch switches the hot as it should be done.
Granted, the white at the switch should be marked with *black* tape or
marker to designate it as a hot, but there is nothing wrong with how
the switches are wired.


That configuration, albeit for a single switch, is shown he

http://i.stack.imgur.com/ZUimx.jpg


Yes, you could do it that way. But I'd note two things:

1 - That example is correctly taped to identify

2 - IMO, it's still not a good idea to use the white connected to the
live
feed, even with re-marking, when it's not necessary. You have a
choice of using the black, it's right there. I would always use that
to be the
conductor that is directly connected, live to the panel all the
time. I'd use the white with black tape for the switched side.




That said, without a neutral to the GFCI, it won't do it's job, which
is to monitor the current on both the hot and the neutral.


When the OP says "When I did this messing around with the switches,
everything worked properly" I'm not surprised that the switches still
worked since the hot was probably being passed through the GFCI from
the Line terminals to the Load terminals and then to the switches, but
I would be surprised if the GFCI worked as an actual receptacle
without a neutral.

Yeah, if there is no neutral in that switch, then it's not going
as a GFI or as an outlet either. Since he doesn't say what he
actually tested or didn't test, who knows.





*If they
area as you say, I would put white tape on the ends to identify them.

White tape on a white wire? Why?

I meant put black tape on the white.

On Mar 25, 9:22*am, wrote:
They bothe have their own hot wire to it. The bot are tuned off by the same breaker. That much I know. I kind of thought what you said. I just wanted to tripple check.

And yes it must have been a hack job. I also noticed that one of the switches was grounded and the other one was not.




The key quesiton here is whether you have a neutral in that switch
box or not. As Derby pointed out, this looks like the feed goes to
the light and fan locations, not to the switch box. If you have no
neutral at the switch, then you can't run the outlet off of it.

On Mar 25, 10:17*am, wrote:
So there is not a way to make a gfci work with this set up?



The essential question is, do you have a neutral in that
switch box. Piecing together what you've said, it sounds
like there probably is not one there. If there isn't you
can't even do a regular outlet, let alone a GFI.

One confusing part is that you said you tested it out
temporarily and it worked? What exactly did you do?
GFI or outlet, either one, needs a neutral.

The outlet worked when I hooked it up.
I will have to go back and look but I know one wire from the hot went in on the side, I cut another wire off an old cable and ran that from the other side of the outlet to one of the switches. I will have to look at home to be sure. I will say the outlet worked becasue I had a hair dryer connected to it and both lights worked. Also, when the switch for "test" was hit, the outlet did not work and both lights still worked.

I wish I had it hear in front of me. It was late last night.

I do know I have two white wires and two black wires and a ground going into the box in the wall. Like I said, before checking it out, I tested and both white wires have power all the time. The black wires only after its individual switch is flipped.

On Monday, March 25, 2013 7:34:48 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I need to add a gfi outlet to my wifes bathroom. I want to add it to the current light switch box. This box currently has two switches, one for the fan,light and one for the vanity light. Each switch has a white wire, a black wire, and a ground. When checking with a voltmeter, the white wire on both switches always has power. Each black wire only has power when the switch is turned on. I am assuming the white wire is the power wire. Can I take these white wires off the switches, connect them to the top and bottom "hot" terminal on the gfi outlet, then feed the switches from both terminals on the other side of the gfi? When I did this messing around with the switches, everything worked properly. I just thought that the black wire was always the constant power wire.

By the way, why I did not finish it last night I I bought a single "rocker" type weitch with two switches in it. This was done to conserve space and leave room in the same box to add an outlet next to it. When I started to push everything back in the face of the rocker switch poped off and I lost the springs that were inside it. So I need to get a new rocker type switch although I am contemplating a single siwth shapped like an outlet that has two regular switchs on it turned 180 degrees if you know what I am talking about.

On Monday, March 25, 2013 7:34:48 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I need to add a gfi outlet to my wifes bathroom. I want to add it to the current light switch box. This box currently has two switches, one for the fan,light and one for the vanity light. Each switch has a white wire, a black wire, and a ground. When checking with a voltmeter, the white wire on both switches always has power. Each black wire only has power when the switch is turned on. I am assuming the white wire is the power wire. Can I take these white wires off the switches, connect them to the top and bottom "hot" terminal on the gfi outlet, then feed the switches from both terminals on the other side of the gfi? When I did this messing around with the switches, everything worked properly. I just thought that the black wire was always the constant power wire.

On 3/25/2013 7:29 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Mar 25, 9:02 am,
wrote:
On Mar 25, 8:34 am, wrote:

I need to add a gfi outlet to my wifes bathroom. I want to add it to the current light switch box. This box currently has two switches, one for the fan,light and one for the vanity light. Each switch has a white wire, a black wire, and a ground. When checking with a voltmeter, the white wire on both switches always has power. Each black wire only has power when the switch is turned on. I am assuming the white wire is the power wire. Can I take these white wires off the switches, connect them to the top and bottom "hot" terminal on the gfi outlet, then feed the switches from both terminals on the other side of the gfi? When I did this messing around with the switches, everything worked properly. I just thought that the black wire was always the constant power wire.

First, this sounds like a hack job done by someone clueless.
The white wires should be the neutrals, not the hots.

Why do you say this is "hack job"?

If the power for the fan comes into the fixture and the power to the
vanity light comes into the vanity fixture, then it is code compliant
to use a single run of romex to bring the hot to the switch box and
back to the fixture. The switch switches the hot as it should be done.
Granted, the white at the switch should be marked with *black* tape or
marker to designate it as a hot, but there is nothing wrong with how
the switches are wired.

The NEC used to allow using the white as the power feed to switches
without remarking the wire to black (or some other appropriate color).


That configuration, albeit for a single switch, is shown he

http://i.stack.imgur.com/ZUimx.jpg

That is the way the NEC wants it done now (and was a good idea before).


That said, without a neutral to the GFCI, it won't do it's job, which
is to monitor the current on both the hot and the neutral.

I agree that there does not appear to be a neutral, and a GFCI won't work.

==================================
If switches are in a metal box they do not have to have a ground wire
attached to them. The requirement for a ground wire in a plastic box is
a relatively recent addition. (The grounding of the switch is in case a
metal plate is used.)

On Mar 25, 10:35*am, wrote:
The outlet worked when I hooked it up.
*I will have to go back and look but I know one wire from the hot went in on the side, I cut another wire off an old cable and ran that from the other side of the outlet to one of the switches. I will have to look at home to be sure. I will say the outlet worked becasue I had a hair dryer connected to it and both lights worked. Also, when the switch for "test" was hit, the outlet did not work and both lights still worked.

I wish I had it hear in front of me. It was late last night.

I do know I have two white wires and two black wires and a ground going into the box in the wall. Like I said, before checking it out, I tested and both white wires have power all the time. The black wires only after its individual switch is flipped.



If those are the only wires you have in the box, then it
would seem the only possibilities a

A - Hot comes from panel, to one fan wire, white wire goes from
other fan wire to switch, other side of switch (blk) goes back to
where fan
is and is connected to neutral there.

B - Hot comes from panel to where fan is, but is not connected
to the fan there. Instead the hot is connected to the white wire
that goes to the switch. Other side of the switch (blk) goes
back to fan and is conneced on one fan wire. Other fan wire
is connected to neutral.


Either way, you have a problem. At the switches, in case A, you
have a neutral, but no hot. What appears to be hot is passing
through the fan or light. In case B, you have a direct hot, but
no neutral. If that is in fact what's there, one clever solution
that I think could work, would be to make one switch like
case A and one like case B. Then you would have a hot and
a neutral in the switch box for the new outlet. But you could
not use the downside load connections on the GFI, but
that isn't essential, especially if the other stuff is just the
lights, fan, etc, ie no outlets.

To do the above, you'd only have to move two wires around
at either the light or the fan.

The puzzling thing left is that you say it worked. If it's wired
like we think it is, that would mean that the hair dryer worked
because it was in series with either the light or the fan motor....

On Mar 25, 10:12*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Mar 25, 10:05*am, bud-- wrote:





On 3/25/2013 7:29 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Mar 25, 9:02 am,
wrote:
On Mar 25, 8:34 am, wrote:

I need to add a gfi outlet to my wifes bathroom. I want to add it to the current light switch box. This box currently has two switches, one for the fan,light and one for the vanity light. Each switch has a white wire, a black wire, and a ground. When checking with a voltmeter, the white wire on both switches always has power. Each black wire only has power when the switch is turned on. I am assuming the white wire is the power wire. Can I take these white wires off the switches, connect them to the top and bottom "hot" terminal on the gfi outlet, then feed the switches from both terminals on the other side of the gfi? When I did this messing around with the switches, everything worked properly. I just thought that the black wire was always the constant power wire.

First, this sounds like a hack job done by someone clueless.
The white wires should be the neutrals, not the hots.

Why do you say this is "hack job"?

If the power for the fan comes into the fixture and the power to the
vanity light comes into the vanity fixture, then it is code compliant
to use a single run of romex to bring the hot to the switch box and
back to the fixture. The switch switches the hot as it should be done..
Granted, the white at the switch should be marked with *black* tape or
marker to designate it as a hot, but there is nothing wrong with how
the switches are wired.

The NEC used to allow using the white as the power feed to switches
without remarking the wire to black (or some other appropriate color).

That configuration, albeit for a single switch, is shown he

http://i.stack.imgur.com/ZUimx.jpg

That is the way the NEC wants it done now (and was a good idea before).

I've marked the white hot with black since I wired my first circuit
about 30 years ago. I don't recall where I read about marking it, or
whether it was just a "suggestion" at the time, but it made so much
sense - especially in a fixture box where the white wire is wire
nutted to the black wires. It eliminates so much confusion and
assumptions.


We're on the same page here. My use of the term hack
job went too far. Like you, I would have marked those
wires. And I would have used the black in that Romex
for the wire that was directly live and used the white
with tape for the other side of the switch. But as is,
it's not what should be called a hack job.

Ok. How do I determine what set up I have? I have not taken eithe the ceiling fan/light or the vanity light off the wall, just the switch end of the circuit.

On Monday, March 25, 2013 7:34:48 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I need to add a gfi outlet to my wifes bathroom. I want to add it to the current light switch box. This box currently has two switches, one for the fan,light and one for the vanity light. Each switch has a white wire, a black wire, and a ground. When checking with a voltmeter, the white wire on both switches always has power. Each black wire only has power when the switch is turned on. I am assuming the white wire is the power wire. Can I take these white wires off the switches, connect them to the top and bottom "hot" terminal on the gfi outlet, then feed the switches from both terminals on the other side of the gfi? When I did this messing around with the switches, everything worked properly. I just thought that the black wire was always the constant power wire.

On Mar 25, 10:35*am, wrote:
The outlet worked when I hooked it up.
*I will have to go back and look but I know one wire from the hot went in on the side, I cut another wire off an old cable and ran that from the other side of the outlet to one of the switches. I will have to look at home to be sure. I will say the outlet worked becasue I had a hair dryer connected to it and both lights worked. Also, when the switch for "test" was hit, the outlet did not work and both lights still worked.

I fail to see how the GFCI worked, based on your description. With
only hots (the white wires) going to the Line side, and the
continuation of the hots out of the Load side and to the switches, I
don't see how the GFCI worked.

I also don't see how the lights switches still worked when you tripped
the GFCI since tripping the GFCI should have killed power to the Load
side. That's how they are supposed to work. That's the purpose of
having a Load side - so it can be protected by the GFCI.

Something is either wrong with your description of how it is wired or
with the original wiring to the switches in the first place. If it
were me, I'd be opeing up the light fixture and the fan fixture and
tracing the wires to determine which one's are actually the hots and
which are the neutrals.

It's possible that one switch switches a hot and the other switch
switches a neutral, which would mean that a hot and neutral would be
present for the GFCI (assuming you hooked both whites to the Line side
of the GFCI) allowing it to work. However, that wouldn't explain why
the switches still had power after the GFCI was tripped. As I said,
with a properly wired GFCI, the Load side will be dead when the the
GFCI is tripped. If it isn't the GFCI is not doing it's job.

Something just doesn't make sense.



I wish I had it hear in front of me. It was late last night.

I do know I have two white wires and two black wires and a ground going into the box in the wall. Like I said, before checking it out, I tested and both white wires have power all the time. The black wires only after its individual switch is flipped.



On Monday, March 25, 2013 7:34:48 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I need to add a gfi outlet to my wifes bathroom. I want to add it to the current light switch box. This box currently has two switches, one for the fan,light and one for the vanity light. Each switch has a white wire, a black wire, and a ground. When checking with a voltmeter, the white wire on both switches always has power. Each black wire only has power when the switch is turned on. I am assuming the white wire is the power wire. Can I take these white wires off the switches, connect them to the top and bottom "hot" terminal on the gfi outlet, then feed the switches from both terminals on the other side of the gfi? When I did this messing around with the switches, everything worked properly. I just thought that the black wire was always the constant power wire.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The two connections i made were at the top only. The bottom terminals of the outlet had a sticker over them saying to only use these if you wanted another outlet or something "downstream" protected by the GFCI. So, on the outleft there are four screws, one left and right on the top, one left and right on the bottom. I only used the top pair. I think one white wire to the hot side and a "jumper" wire from the other side to one switch. (Of course the ground wire was also attached).

I will double check when I get home. This is from memory.


On Monday, March 25, 2013 7:34:48 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I need to add a gfi outlet to my wifes bathroom. I want to add it to the current light switch box. This box currently has two switches, one for the fan,light and one for the vanity light. Each switch has a white wire, a black wire, and a ground. When checking with a voltmeter, the white wire on both switches always has power. Each black wire only has power when the switch is turned on. I am assuming the white wire is the power wire. Can I take these white wires off the switches, connect them to the top and bottom "hot" terminal on the gfi outlet, then feed the switches from both terminals on the other side of the gfi? When I did this messing around with the switches, everything worked properly. I just thought that the black wire was always the constant power wire.

wrote:

The outlet worked when I hooked it up.

Keep in mind that residential lighting circuits in the US are typically 15A and
outlet circuits are typically 20A. While what you did may work, especially if
you only tested it for a few minutes, longer use with something that can draw a
significant amount of power (like a hair dryer) is likely to trip a breaker
(best case) or cause wire overheating or worse...

On Mar 25, 11:42*am, wrote:
The two connections i made were at the top only. The bottom terminals of the outlet had a sticker over them saying to only use these if you wanted another outlet or something "downstream" protected by the GFCI. So, on the outleft there are four screws, one left and right on the top, one left and right on the bottom. I only used the top pair. I think one white wire to the hot side and a "jumper" wire from the other side to one switch. (Of course the ground wire was also attached).

I will double check when I get home. This is from memory.

....Snip


Makes no sense to me. You can't run any receptacle, GFCI or standard,
with just a hot. You need a neutral to complete the circuit.

In your OP you said:

"Can I take these white wires off the switches, connect them to the
top and bottom "hot" terminal on the gfi outlet, then feed the
switches from both terminals on the other side of the gfi? When I did
this messing around with the switches, everything worked properly"

That tells me that you "did this" (connect them to the top and bottom
"hot" terminal on the gfi outlet) already, yet now you say that "The
two connections i made were at the top only". Do you see my
confusion?

If you have in fact only removed the hot from one switch, attached it
to the Line In Hot at the GFCI and connected a jumper from the Line In
Neutral of the GFCI to that same switch, then the other switch should
have nothing to do with any of this since it's not even in the
circuit.

I still fail to see how any of this can power the GFCI since either:
Case 1 - you have no Neutral or Case 2 - You have not described your
connections properly.

I suggest we stop discussing this until you know what you have and
know what you have tried. Right now, AFAICT, it just can't work the
way you've described it.

I am sorry. I will re look at this this evening and post. What I did no was only attached to the top posts of the gfi I have not done anythign with the bottom. I can see the confusion. I am sorry about that.

On Monday, March 25, 2013 7:34:48 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I need to add a gfi outlet to my wifes bathroom. I want to add it to the current light switch box. This box currently has two switches, one for the fan,light and one for the vanity light. Each switch has a white wire, a black wire, and a ground. When checking with a voltmeter, the white wire on both switches always has power. Each black wire only has power when the switch is turned on. I am assuming the white wire is the power wire. Can I take these white wires off the switches, connect them to the top and bottom "hot" terminal on the gfi outlet, then feed the switches from both terminals on the other side of the gfi? When I did this messing around with the switches, everything worked properly. I just thought that the black wire was always the constant power wire.

" wrote in news:36cc8e97-87bc-48b5-b623-
:

On Mar 25, 8:34*am, wrote:
I need to add a gfi outlet to my wifes bathroom. I want to add it to the
current light switch box. This box currently has two switches, one for the fan,light and one
for the vanity light. Each switch has a white wire, a black wire, and a ground. When checking
with a voltmeter, the white wire on both switches always has power. Each black wire only
has power when the switch is turned on. I am assuming the white wire is the power wire. Can
I take these white wires off the switches, connect them to the top and bottom "hot" terminal
on the gfi outlet, then feed the switches from both terminals on the other side of the gfi?
When I did this messing around with the switches, everything worked properly. I just thought
that the black wire was always the constant power wire.

First, this sounds like a hack job done by someone clueless.
The white wires should be the neutrals, not the hots.

Nonsense. This is perfectly normal wiring. Google "switch leg".

wrote in
:

I need to add a gfi outlet to my wifes bathroom. I want to add
it to the current light switch box. This box currently has two
switches, one for the fan,light and one for the vanity light.
Each switch has a white wire, a black wire, and a ground. When
checking with a voltmeter, the white wire on both switches
always has power. Each black wire only has power when the switch
is turned on. I am assuming the white wire is the power wire.

Both white *and* black are power wires: the white wire brings power to the switch, the black
wire takes power to the load when the switch is turned on.

Can I take these white wires off the switches, connect them to
the top and bottom "hot" terminal on the gfi outlet, then feed
the switches from both terminals on the other side of the gfi?

No. You need a neutral conductor for an outlet, and you don't have one.

When I did this messing around with the switches, everything
worked properly. I just thought that the black wire was always
the constant power wire.

When wiring a switch leg (which is what you have there), both white and black carry power.
Normally, the white wire is constant power, and the black wire is switched power, just as you
have there. The white wire is supposed to be marked black at the exposed ends, though.

DerbyDad03 wrote in news:ef56b575-3750-4a9c-bfb2-
:

On Mar 25, 11:42*am, wrote:
The two connections i made were at the top only. The bottom terminals of
the outlet had a sticker over them saying to only use these if you wanted another outlet or
something "downstream" protected by the GFCI. So, on the outleft there are four screws,
one left and right on the top, one left and right on the bottom. I only used the top pair. I think
one white wire to the hot side and a "jumper" wire from the other side to one switch. (Of
course the ground wire was also attached).

I will double check when I get home. This is from memory.

...Snip


Makes no sense to me. You can't run any receptacle, GFCI or standard,
with just a hot. You need a neutral to complete the circuit.

He has the outlet wired _in series_ with the light. Plug something in and turn it on, and the
light comes on too: the circuit is completing through the light, to the neutral in the light fixture.

To the OP: if you want to find out if I'm right about that, wire the outlet up the way you had it
before, verify the outlet works, then remove the light bulb. The outlet will no longer work.

Doug Miller wrote in
:

DerbyDad03 wrote in news:ef56b575-3750-4a9c-bfb2-
:

On Mar 25, 11:42*am, wrote:
The two connections i made were at the top only. The bottom terminals of
the outlet had a sticker over them saying to only use these if you wanted another outlet or
something "downstream" protected by the GFCI. So, on the outleft there are four screws,
one left and right on the top, one left and right on the bottom. I only used the top pair. I think
one white wire to the hot side and a "jumper" wire from the other side to one switch. (Of
course the ground wire was also attached).

I will double check when I get home. This is from memory.

...Snip


Makes no sense to me. You can't run any receptacle, GFCI or standard,
with just a hot. You need a neutral to complete the circuit.

He has the outlet wired _in series_ with the light. Plug something in and turn it on, and the
light comes on too: the circuit is completing through the light, to the neutral in the light
fixture.

To the OP: if you want to find out if I'm right about that, wire the outlet up the way you had it
before, verify the outlet works, then remove the light bulb. The outlet will no longer work.

Also, the light won't work unless there's something plugged in to the outlet, and turned on.

I will do this. Is this a legal way to wire it this way? (Where the outlet looses power if the light bulb is removed?)



On Monday, March 25, 2013 7:34:48 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I need to add a gfi outlet to my wifes bathroom. I want to add it to the current light switch box. This box currently has two switches, one for the fan,light and one for the vanity light. Each switch has a white wire, a black wire, and a ground. When checking with a voltmeter, the white wire on both switches always has power. Each black wire only has power when the switch is turned on. I am assuming the white wire is the power wire. Can I take these white wires off the switches, connect them to the top and bottom "hot" terminal on the gfi outlet, then feed the switches from both terminals on the other side of the gfi? When I did this messing around with the switches, everything worked properly. I just thought that the black wire was always the constant power wire.

On 3/25/2013 11:24 AM, wrote:
On Mar 25, 10:12 am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Mar 25, 10:05 am, bud-- wrote:





On 3/25/2013 7:29 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Mar 25, 9:02 am,
wrote:
On Mar 25, 8:34 am, wrote:
I need to add a gfi outlet to my wifes bathroom. I want to add it to the current light switch box. This box currently has two switches, one for the fan,light and one for the vanity light. Each switch has a white wire, a black wire, and a ground. When checking with a voltmeter, the white wire on both switches always has power. Each black wire only has power when the switch is turned on. I am assuming the white wire is the power wire. Can I take these white wires off the switches, connect them to the top and bottom "hot" terminal on the gfi outlet, then feed the switches from both terminals on the other side of the gfi? When I did this messing around with the switches, everything worked properly. I just thought that the black wire was always the constant power wire.
First, this sounds like a hack job done by someone clueless.
The white wires should be the neutrals, not the hots.
Why do you say this is "hack job"?
If the power for the fan comes into the fixture and the power to the
vanity light comes into the vanity fixture, then it is code compliant
to use a single run of romex to bring the hot to the switch box and
back to the fixture. The switch switches the hot as it should be done.
Granted, the white at the switch should be marked with *black* tape or
marker to designate it as a hot, but there is nothing wrong with how
the switches are wired.
The NEC used to allow using the white as the power feed to switches
without remarking the wire to black (or some other appropriate color).
That configuration, albeit for a single switch, is shown he
http://i.stack.imgur.com/ZUimx.jpg
That is the way the NEC wants it done now (and was a good idea before).
I've marked the white hot with black since I wired my first circuit
about 30 years ago. I don't recall where I read about marking it, or
whether it was just a "suggestion" at the time, but it made so much
sense - especially in a fixture box where the white wire is wire
nutted to the black wires. It eliminates so much confusion and
assumptions.

We're on the same page here. My use of the term hack
job went too far. Like you, I would have marked those
wires. And I would have used the black in that Romex
for the wire that was directly live and used the white
with tape for the other side of the switch. But as is,
it's not what should be called a hack job.
I prefer it the other way around. I like the true black (hot) wire to
reside at the device that's being controlled by the switch

On 3/25/2013 10:21 AM, wrote:
On Mar 25, 9:22 am, wrote:
They bothe have their own hot wire to it. The bot are tuned off by the same breaker. That much I know. I kind of thought what you said. I just wanted to tripple check.

And yes it must have been a hack job. I also noticed that one of the switches was grounded and the other one was not.



The key quesiton here is whether you have a neutral in that switch
box or not. As Derby pointed out, this looks like the feed goes to
the light and fan locations, not to the switch box. If you have no
neutral at the switch, then you can't run the outlet off of it.
Ditto, DD03 hit the nail on the head. While it doesn't conform to
current code, it doesn't sound like a Rube either.

On Mar 25, 2:38*pm, Doug Miller
wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote in news:ef56b575-3750-4a9c-bfb2-
:

On Mar 25, 11:42 am, wrote:
The two connections i made were at the top only. The bottom terminals of
the outlet had a sticker over them saying to only use these if you wanted another outlet or

something "downstream" protected by the GFCI. So, on the outleft there are four screws,
one left and right on the top, one left and right on the bottom. I only used the top pair. I think
one white wire to the hot side and a "jumper" wire from the other side to one switch. (Of
course the ground wire was also attached).



I will double check when I get home. This is from memory.

...Snip

Makes no sense to me. You can't run any receptacle, GFCI or standard,
with just a hot. You need a neutral to complete the circuit.

He has the outlet wired _in series_ with the light. Plug something in and turn it on, and the
light comes on too: the circuit is completing through the light, to the neutral in the light fixture.

To the OP: if you want to find out if I'm right about that, wire the outlet up the way you had it
before, verify the outlet works, then remove the light bulb. The outlet will no longer work.

I was going to go down that path (no pun intended) but since there is
so much confusion as to what he has and how it's wired, I decided
there was no sense in attempting to explain the possible reasons that
things are acting like they are.

At one point he said "I will say the outlet worked becasue I had a
hair dryer connected to it and both lights worked. Also, when the
switch for "test" was hit, the outlet did not work and both lights
still worked."

Seems to me that if he turned off the light that he had jumped the
GFCI to, the outlet would have stopped working, but since he's
describing what he has/did "from memory" I figured that any more
speculation would just add to the confusion.

Bottom line is that if there is indeed no neutral in the box, which
based on the original description, there isn't, the GFCI is not going
to work properly. He'll need to source power from someplace - perhaps
the vanity light, perhaps the fan - and pull a length of Romex from
there - assuming there's (legal) room in one of those fixture boxes
for another set of connections.

wrote in news:85377748-0726-4078-8963-
:

I will do this. Is this a legal way to wire it this way? (Where the outlet looses power if the light
bulb is removed?)

This is neither legal nor safe.

Stop what you're doing, and hire an electrician.

DerbyDad03 wrote in news:3016d663-721a-49eb-83ac-
:

Bottom line is that if there is indeed no neutral in the box, which
based on the original description, there isn't, the GFCI is not going
to work properly. He'll need to source power from someplace - perhaps
the vanity light, perhaps the fan - and pull a length of Romex from
there - assuming there's (legal) room in one of those fixture boxes
for another set of connections.

Correction -- *he* doesn't need to do that, the *electrician he hires* will need to do that.

He doesn't understand enough about electricity to do this, or any other wiring project, safely.

On Mar 25, 3:12*pm, Doug Miller
wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote in news:3016d663-721a-49eb-83ac-
:

Bottom line is that if there is indeed no neutral in the box, which
based on the original description, there isn't, the GFCI is not going
to work properly. He'll need to source power from someplace - perhaps
the vanity light, perhaps the fan - and pull a length of Romex from
there - assuming there's (legal) room in one of those fixture boxes
for another set of connections.

Correction -- *he* doesn't need to do that, the *electrician he hires* will need to do that.

He doesn't understand enough about electricity to do this, or any other wiring project, safely.

I was using the generic, code compliant "he". ;-)

To be honest, I was torn between "this is a.h.r and we should be
teaching members how to do their own work" and saying "call a
professional". In fact, early on I started typing "Put the tools down
and step away from the switchbox", but stopped.

At one point, many years ago, I didn't "understand enough about
electricity to do this, or any other wiring project, safely". However,
some very nice member's of this group (maybe even you) were patient
enough to answer my questions and teach me the right way to accomplish
my goals. Since the OP has already shown that he is willing to do the
work - and is still alive to tell us what he's tried so far - maybe we
should try and talk him through this. Some will agree and some will
not...and that's fine.

I hope that after reading the responses in this thread, including this
one, he is now aware that he should have asked what needed to be done
before he picked up any tools.

On 3/25/2013 12:12 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote in news:3016d663-721a-49eb-83ac-
:

Bottom line is that if there is indeed no neutral in the box, which
based on the original description, there isn't, the GFCI is not going
to work properly. He'll need to source power from someplace - perhaps
the vanity light, perhaps the fan - and pull a length of Romex from
there - assuming there's (legal) room in one of those fixture boxes
for another set of connections.

Correction -- *he* doesn't need to do that, the *electrician he hires* will need to do that.

He doesn't understand enough about electricity to do this, or any other wiring project, safely.


remember who this is posted as. he is not known for following advice,
nor for not doing something that one would not normally do.

DerbyDad03 wrote in news:da957a75-4421-4bba-b29a-
:

At one point, many years ago, I didn't "understand enough about
electricity to do this, or any other wiring project, safely". However,
some very nice member's of this group (maybe even you) were patient
enough to answer my questions and teach me the right way to accomplish
my goals. Since the OP has already shown that he is willing to do the
work - and is still alive to tell us what he's tried so far - maybe we
should try and talk him through this. Some will agree and some will
not...and that's fine.

I understand, and agree with you -- up to a point. Perhaps you're unaware of this *specific*
person's history in this group and at least one or two others I can think of. Attempting a
project that he's totally ignorant of, getting stuck, and *then* posting requests for help is not
a one-time thing with "stryped", it's a long-established pattern. (Check out his car repair
problems over the years, in rec.crafts.metalworking, and you'll see what I mean.)

That, in and of itself, wouldn't be much of a problem, if it stopped there. But it doesn't. What
makes it a problem is that the pattern *also* includes ignoring advice that doesn't match
what he wanted to hear. That, plus 120VAC, is a Really Bad Combination.

Knowing, as I do from having read some of his other posts, that his household includes a
wife and kid(s), I think it's highly irresponsible for him to be messing around with 120VAC
when he clearly doesn't understand what he's doing.

I hope that after reading the responses in this thread, including this
one, he is now aware that he should have asked what needed to be done
before he picked up any tools.

I agree. I further hope that he has the sense to put the tools down, and call a professional, or
at least a competent handyman.

chaniarts wrote in
:

On 3/25/2013 12:12 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote in
news:3016d663-721a-49eb-83ac-
:

Bottom line is that if there is indeed no neutral in the box,
which based on the original description, there isn't, the GFCI
is not going to work properly. He'll need to source power from
someplace - perhaps the vanity light, perhaps the fan - and
pull a length of Romex from there - assuming there's (legal)
room in one of those fixture boxes for another set of
connections.

Correction -- *he* doesn't need to do that, the *electrician he
hires* will need to do that.

He doesn't understand enough about electricity to do this, or
any other wiring project, safely.


remember who this is posted as. he is not known for following
advice, nor for not doing something that one would not normally
do.

I'm well aware of that -- which is why my advice to him has been:
- this can't be done safely
- this can't be done legally
- call a professional

On 3/25/2013 12:56 PM, RBM wrote:
On 3/25/2013 11:24 AM, wrote:
On Mar 25, 10:12 am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Mar 25, 10:05 am, bud-- wrote:





On 3/25/2013 7:29 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Mar 25, 9:02 am,
wrote:
On Mar 25, 8:34 am, wrote:
I need to add a gfi outlet to my wifes bathroom. I want to add it
to the current light switch box. This box currently has two
switches, one for the fan,light and one for the vanity light.
Each switch has a white wire, a black wire, and a ground. When
checking with a voltmeter, the white wire on both switches always
has power. Each black wire only has power when the switch is
turned on. I am assuming the white wire is the power wire. Can I
take these white wires off the switches, connect them to the top
and bottom "hot" terminal on the gfi outlet, then feed the
switches from both terminals on the other side of the gfi? When I
did this messing around with the switches, everything worked
properly. I just thought that the black wire was always the
constant power wire.
First, this sounds like a hack job done by someone clueless.
The white wires should be the neutrals, not the hots.
Why do you say this is "hack job"?
If the power for the fan comes into the fixture and the power to the
vanity light comes into the vanity fixture, then it is code compliant
to use a single run of romex to bring the hot to the switch box and
back to the fixture. The switch switches the hot as it should be done.
Granted, the white at the switch should be marked with *black* tape or
marker to designate it as a hot, but there is nothing wrong with how
the switches are wired.
The NEC used to allow using the white as the power feed to switches
without remarking the wire to black (or some other appropriate color).
That configuration, albeit for a single switch, is shown he
http://i.stack.imgur.com/ZUimx.jpg
That is the way the NEC wants it done now (and was a good idea before).
I've marked the white hot with black since I wired my first circuit
about 30 years ago. I don't recall where I read about marking it, or
whether it was just a "suggestion" at the time, but it made so much
sense - especially in a fixture box where the white wire is wire
nutted to the black wires. It eliminates so much confusion and
assumptions.

We're on the same page here. My use of the term hack
job went too far. Like you, I would have marked those
wires. And I would have used the black in that Romex
for the wire that was directly live and used the white
with tape for the other side of the switch. But as is,
it's not what should be called a hack job.
I prefer it the other way around. I like the true black (hot) wire to
reside at the device that's being controlled by the switch

If you're like me, you keep some 14/3 WG around for lighting circuits. ^_^

TDD

Doug Miller wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote in news:da957a75-4421-4bba-b29a-
:

At one point, many years ago, I didn't "understand enough about
electricity to do this, or any other wiring project, safely". However,
some very nice member's of this group (maybe even you) were patient
enough to answer my questions and teach me the right way to accomplish
my goals. Since the OP has already shown that he is willing to do the
work - and is still alive to tell us what he's tried so far - maybe we
should try and talk him through this. Some will agree and some will
not...and that's fine.

I understand, and agree with you -- up to a point. Perhaps you're unaware
of this *specific*
person's history in this group and at least one or two others I can think of. Attempting a
project that he's totally ignorant of, getting stuck, and *then* posting
requests for help is not
a one-time thing with "stryped", it's a long-established pattern. (Check
out his car repair
problems over the years, in rec.crafts.metalworking, and you'll see what I mean.)

Point taken!

On Mar 25, 11:27*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Mar 25, 10:35*am, wrote:

The outlet worked when I hooked it up.
*I will have to go back and look but I know one wire from the hot went in on the side, I cut another wire off an old cable and ran that from the other side of the outlet to one of the switches. I will have to look at home to be sure. I will say the outlet worked becasue I had a hair dryer connected to it and both lights worked. Also, when the switch for "test" was hit, the outlet did not work and both lights still worked.

I fail to see how the GFCI worked, based on your description. With
only hots (the white wires) going to the Line side, and the
continuation of the hots out of the Load side and to the switches, I
don't see how the GFCI worked.

I also don't see how the lights switches still worked when you tripped
the GFCI since tripping the GFCI should have killed power to the Load
side. That's how they are supposed to work. That's the purpose of
having a Load side - so it can be protected by the GFCI.

Something is either wrong with your description of how it is wired or
with the original wiring to the switches in the first place. *If it
were me, I'd be opeing up the light fixture and the fan fixture and
tracing the wires to determine which one's are actually the hots and
which are the neutrals.

It's possible that one switch switches a hot and the other switch
switches a neutral, which would mean that a hot and neutral would be
present for the GFCI (assuming you hooked both whites to the Line side
of the GFCI) allowing it to work. However, that wouldn't explain why
the switches still had power after the GFCI was tripped. As I said,
with a properly wired GFCI, the Load side will be dead when the the
GFCI is tripped. If it isn't the GFCI is not doing it's job.

Something just doesn't make sense.





I wish I had it hear in front of me. It was late last night.

I do know I have two white wires and two black wires and a ground going into the box in the wall. Like I said, before checking it out, I tested and both white wires have power all the time. The black wires only after its individual switch is flipped.

On Monday, March 25, 2013 7:34:48 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I need to add a gfi outlet to my wifes bathroom. I want to add it to the current light switch box. This box currently has two switches, one for the fan,light and one for the vanity light. Each switch has a white wire, a black wire, and a ground. When checking with a voltmeter, the white wire on both switches always has power. Each black wire only has power when the switch is turned on. I am assuming the white wire is the power wire. Can I take these white wires off the switches, connect them to the top and bottom "hot" terminal on the gfi outlet, then feed the switches from both terminals on the other side of the gfi? When I did this messing around with the switches, everything worked properly. I just thought that the black wire was always the constant power wire.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you read what he said he did, I don't think he hooked both whites
wires
to the line side. He said he hooked one to the top and one to the
bottom of the GFI. I don't have one sitting here in front of me,
but that sounds like it's one to the line side, one to the load side.
If that's what he did, even harder to figure out how it could have
worked. But it isn't worth the time. He or someone else needs to
figure out what he really has there and how to best proceed.

" wrote in news:dcd380fd-95e6-4658-afe4-
:

If you read what he said he did, I don't think he hooked both whites
wires
to the line side. He said he hooked one to the top and one to the
bottom of the GFI. I don't have one sitting here in front of me,
but that sounds like it's one to the line side, one to the load side.
If that's what he did, even harder to figure out how it could have
worked.

Sounds to me more like he connected both whites to the line side terminals, and both
blacks to the load side. Assume *that*, and it's very easy to see how it could have
*appeared* to work:

- the load connected to the pass-through terminals will work until the TEST button is
pressed
- the load connected to the outlet-only terminals will work if there's something plugged into
the GFCI, it's turned on, and the GFCI TEST button has not been pressed.
- whatever is plugged into the GFCI will operate because the outlet is _in series_ with the
lighting loads, and it's using the neutral there.

But it isn't worth the time. He or someone else needs to
figure out what he really has there and how to best proceed.

Someone else, ideally.

On Mar 25, 6:25*pm, Doug Miller
wrote:
" wrote in news:dcd380fd-95e6-4658-afe4-
:

If you read what he said he did, I don't think he hooked both whites
wires
to the line side. *He said he hooked one to the top and one to the
bottom of the GFI. *I don't have one sitting here in front of me,
but that sounds like it's one to the line side, one to the load side.
If that's what he did, even harder to figure out how it could have
worked.

Sounds to me more like he connected both whites to the line side terminals, and both
blacks to the load side. Assume *that*, and it's very easy to see how it could have
*appeared* to work:

How could the GFI work connected that way? He would
have the fan circuit on one side of the GFI (eg hot) and the light on
the
other side (eg neutral) of the GFI. It would be totally unbalanced
and should trip immediately.

" wrote in news:13d1c8cd-8de5-47e3-ab2f-
:

On Mar 25, 6:25*pm, Doug Miller
wrote:
" wrote in news:dcd380fd-95
e6-4658-afe4-
:

If you read what he said he did, I don't think he hooked both whites
wires
to the line side. *He said he hooked one to the top and one to the
bottom of the GFI. *I don't have one sitting here in front of me,
but that sounds like it's one to the line side, one to the load side.
If that's what he did, even harder to figure out how it could have
worked.

Sounds to me more like he connected both whites to the line side terminal
s, and both
blacks to the load side. Assume *that*, and it's very easy to see how it
could have
*appeared* to work:

How could the GFI work connected that way? He would
have the fan circuit on one side of the GFI (eg hot) and the light on
the
other side (eg neutral) of the GFI. It would be totally unbalanced
and should trip immediately.

Yeah, you're right -- I didn't think that through. Never mind...