I need electricity for a ceiling fan. In my attic, I found an existing wire that powers a light switch. I want to run a new wire from the existing wire to the ceiling fan. How do I tap into the existing wire?

On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 12:48:46 -0800 (PST), gary
wrote:

I need electricity for a ceiling fan. In my attic, I found an existing wire that powers a light switch. I want to run a new wire from the existing wire to the ceiling fan. How do I tap into the existing wire?
With an accessible junction box. Best bet is likely to run new wire
from the light switch. (unswitched)

In article ,
gary wrote:

I need electricity for a ceiling fan. In my attic, I found an existing wire
that powers a light switch. I want to run a new wire from the existing wire
to the ceiling fan. How do I tap into the existing wire?

The power may be running to the light, and the wire going to the switch
might only be a loop used to break the circuit to the light. If that's
the case then you can't tap into it there.

wrote in
:

On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 12:48:46 -0800 (PST), gary
wrote:

I need electricity for a ceiling fan. In my attic, I found an
existing wire that powers a light switch. I want to run a new wire
from the existing wire to the ceiling fan. How do I tap into the
existing wire?
With an accessible junction box. Best bet is likely to run new wire
from the light switch. (unswitched)

And what will you connect the "new wire" white wire to on that switch??????

On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 15:07:52 -0600, Mark Storkamp
wrote:

In article ,
gary wrote:

I need electricity for a ceiling fan. In my attic, I found an existing wire
that powers a light switch. I want to run a new wire from the existing wire
to the ceiling fan. How do I tap into the existing wire?

The power may be running to the light, and the wire going to the switch
might only be a loop used to break the circuit to the light. If that's
the case then you can't tap into it there.
So tap into the light then. It's not rocket science either way. The
point is, it HAS to be done at a box. You can't "vampire" it - and the
box needs to be accessible.

On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 22:01:31 +0000 (UTC), Red Green
wrote:

wrote in
:

On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 12:48:46 -0800 (PST), gary
wrote:

I need electricity for a ceiling fan. In my attic, I found an
existing wire that powers a light switch. I want to run a new wire
from the existing wire to the ceiling fan. How do I tap into the
existing wire?
With an accessible junction box. Best bet is likely to run new wire
from the light switch. (unswitched)

And what will you connect the "new wire" white wire to on that switch??????
Depends if it line switched or drop switched. Drop switched won't
work

On 1/11/2013 12:48 PM, gary wrote:
I need electricity for a ceiling fan. In my attic, I found an existing wire that powers a light switch. I want to run a new wire from the existing wire to the ceiling fan. How do I tap into the existing wire?

You need to read the electrical code in your jurisdiction, wherever that is.
Tapping into a wire is trivial. Making it pass inspection may take more
knowledge
than you currently possess. And the thing that trips you up will
seem trivial or even stupid.

A lot depends on your definition of "ceiling fan".

My neighbor came home with a ceiling fan...the bladed
decapitation type.
I read the instructions and suggested he take it back.

According to the instructions, you can't install the fan
into an existing box in the ceiling. You need a box
approved for ceiling fan use. Near as I could tell,
the approved box differed in three areas.
It had a sticker that said, "approved for ceiling fan use".
And a price sticker with a substantially higher price.
And it required opening the ceiling and patching it back up.

He wasn't gonna get a permit or have it inspected. I didn't
want to be party to denial of a fire insurance claim.

This stuff is easy and you can always get away with it...until
you get caught with your house on fire.

Funny story...
About 50 years ago, there was some problem with the window
air conditioner. It got unplugged.
Dad had difficulty getting the plug back into the wall,
but made it happen.
Next day, I was riding my bike home from school.
"Cool, look at all the fire trucks!"
Imagine how my mood changed when I discovered it was MY house.
Point being, simple stuff can cause BIG problems.

And that wasn't the last time I got burned out of my house.
But that's a funny story for a different day.

On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 12:48:46 -0800 (PST), gary
wrote:

I need electricity for a ceiling fan. In my attic, I found an existing
wire that powers a light switch. I want to run a new wire from the
existing wire to the ceiling fan. How do I tap into the existing wire?

An electrician would use a pair of wire cutters!
But since you dont know that, you only need to use a telephone. Use it
to call that electrician.

On Jan 11, 5:15*pm, wrote:
On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 15:07:52 -0600, Mark Storkamp

wrote:
In article ,
gary wrote:

I need electricity for a ceiling fan. *In my attic, I found an existing wire
that powers a light switch. *I want to run a new wire from the existing wire
to the ceiling fan. *How do I tap into the existing wire?

The power may be running to the light, and the wire going to the switch
might only be a loop used to break the circuit to the light. If that's
the case then you can't tap into it there.

*So tap into the light then. It's not rocket science either way. The
point is, it HAS to be done at a box. You can't "vampire" it - and the
box needs to be accessible.

Agree, that's the essence of it. If he's found a cable that is
not switched, ie live all the time, in the attic, he would
typically need two new boxes. You cut the cable
and put one box on each end, with a new piece between
them to re-connect the existing circuit. You usually can't
use just one because their isn't enough existing cable
there to make it work with one box.

The cable for fan power can then come off either box.
For most applications, I'd then just use one of the
remote control packages for the fan. That way you don't
need to run cable into the wall, install switch, etc. Just
run power in the attic over to the ceiling fan. Use the
remote to control it. They also have a wall mount holder
to keep the remote in if desired.

On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 14:48:36 -0800, mike wrote:

Funny story...
About 50 years ago, there was some problem with the window
air conditioner. It got unplugged.
Dad had difficulty getting the plug back into the wall,
but made it happen.
Next day, I was riding my bike home from school.
"Cool, look at all the fire trucks!"
Imagine how my mood changed when I discovered it was MY house.

How can plugging an an AC that got unplugged start a fire?

On 1/11/2013 5:48 PM, mike wrote:
On 1/11/2013 12:48 PM, gary wrote:
I need electricity for a ceiling fan. In my attic, I found an
existing wire that powers a light switch. I want to run a new wire
from the existing wire to the ceiling fan. How do I tap into the
existing wire?

You need to read the electrical code in your jurisdiction, wherever
that is.
Tapping into a wire is trivial. Making it pass inspection may take
more knowledge
than you currently possess. And the thing that trips you up will
seem trivial or even stupid.

A lot depends on your definition of "ceiling fan".

My neighbor came home with a ceiling fan...the bladed
decapitation type.
I read the instructions and suggested he take it back.

According to the instructions, you can't install the fan
into an existing box in the ceiling. You need a box
approved for ceiling fan use. Near as I could tell,
the approved box differed in three areas.
It had a sticker that said, "approved for ceiling fan use".
And a price sticker with a substantially higher price.
And it required opening the ceiling and patching it back up.
I'd hope that there's more of a difference between a standard ceiling
box and a fan support box than just a sticker, price, and necessity to
open the ceiling


He wasn't gonna get a permit or have it inspected. I didn't
want to be party to denial of a fire insurance claim.

This stuff is easy and you can always get away with it...until
you get caught with your house on fire.

Funny story...
About 50 years ago, there was some problem with the window
air conditioner. It got unplugged.
Dad had difficulty getting the plug back into the wall,
but made it happen.
Next day, I was riding my bike home from school.
"Cool, look at all the fire trucks!"
Imagine how my mood changed when I discovered it was MY house.
Point being, simple stuff can cause BIG problems.

And that wasn't the last time I got burned out of my house.
But that's a funny story for a different day.

On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 14:48:36 -0800, mike wrote:

I read the instructions and suggested he take it back.

According to the instructions, you can't install the fan
into an existing box in the ceiling. You need a box
approved for ceiling fan use. Near as I could tell,
the approved box differed in three areas.
It had a sticker that said, "approved for ceiling fan use".
And a price sticker with a substantially higher price.
And it required opening the ceiling and patching it back up.

Did you actually look at his current ceiling light box? It may not
need the "approved for ceiling fan use". Yes I have used them. It can
be done without ripping out the bigger hole.

Point. I've hung ceiling fans in some light metal boxes. I add a
couple of 2" screws through the box and into the ceiling joist. This
is when the box is not mounted on the side, but secure underneath at
the bottom or if the box is plastic. I do suggest using the "approved
for ceiling fan use" boxes when you would not have a sound attachment
present already.

On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 18:23:42 -0500, RBM wrote:

On 1/11/2013 5:48 PM, mike wrote:
On 1/11/2013 12:48 PM, gary wrote:
I need electricity for a ceiling fan. In my attic, I found an
existing wire that powers a light switch. I want to run a new wire
from the existing wire to the ceiling fan. How do I tap into the
existing wire?

You need to read the electrical code in your jurisdiction, wherever
that is.
Tapping into a wire is trivial. Making it pass inspection may take
more knowledge
than you currently possess. And the thing that trips you up will
seem trivial or even stupid.

A lot depends on your definition of "ceiling fan".

My neighbor came home with a ceiling fan...the bladed
decapitation type.
I read the instructions and suggested he take it back.

According to the instructions, you can't install the fan
into an existing box in the ceiling. You need a box
approved for ceiling fan use. Near as I could tell,
the approved box differed in three areas.
It had a sticker that said, "approved for ceiling fan use".
And a price sticker with a substantially higher price.
And it required opening the ceiling and patching it back up.
I'd hope that there's more of a difference between a standard ceiling
box and a fan support box than just a sticker, price, and necessity to
open the ceiling


Ther IS. The ceiling fan box is designed to support the weight of the
swinging ceiling fan and transfer the weight to the ceiling joists.

He wasn't gonna get a permit or have it inspected. I didn't
want to be party to denial of a fire insurance claim.

This stuff is easy and you can always get away with it...until
you get caught with your house on fire.

Funny story...
About 50 years ago, there was some problem with the window
air conditioner. It got unplugged.
Dad had difficulty getting the plug back into the wall,
but made it happen.
Next day, I was riding my bike home from school.
"Cool, look at all the fire trucks!"
Imagine how my mood changed when I discovered it was MY house.
Point being, simple stuff can cause BIG problems.

And that wasn't the last time I got burned out of my house.
But that's a funny story for a different day.

On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 18:23:42 -0500, RBM wrote:

On 1/11/2013 5:48 PM, mike wrote:
On 1/11/2013 12:48 PM, gary wrote:
I need electricity for a ceiling fan. In my attic, I found an
existing wire that powers a light switch. I want to run a new wire
from the existing wire to the ceiling fan. How do I tap into the
existing wire?

You need to read the electrical code in your jurisdiction, wherever
that is.
Tapping into a wire is trivial. Making it pass inspection may take
more knowledge
than you currently possess. And the thing that trips you up will
seem trivial or even stupid.

A lot depends on your definition of "ceiling fan".

My neighbor came home with a ceiling fan...the bladed
decapitation type.
I read the instructions and suggested he take it back.

According to the instructions, you can't install the fan
into an existing box in the ceiling. You need a box
approved for ceiling fan use. Near as I could tell,
the approved box differed in three areas.
It had a sticker that said, "approved for ceiling fan use".
And a price sticker with a substantially higher price.
And it required opening the ceiling and patching it back up.

I'd hope that there's more of a difference between a standard ceiling
box and a fan support box than just a sticker, price, and necessity to
open the ceiling

Sure there is. It has to be able to take the weight of the fan and
the vibration without falling out of the ceiling. It only makes sense
to make sure the thing can take a beating.

We hear the "insurance" nonsense here all the time but it's BS. The
worrywarts couldn't take a **** without their master's permission.

On 1/11/2013 6:26 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 14:48:36 -0800, mike wrote:

I read the instructions and suggested he take it back.

According to the instructions, you can't install the fan
into an existing box in the ceiling. You need a box
approved for ceiling fan use. Near as I could tell,
the approved box differed in three areas.
It had a sticker that said, "approved for ceiling fan use".
And a price sticker with a substantially higher price.
And it required opening the ceiling and patching it back up.
Did you actually look at his current ceiling light box? It may not
need the "approved for ceiling fan use". Yes I have used them. It can
be done without ripping out the bigger hole.

Point. I've hung ceiling fans in some light metal boxes. I add a
couple of 2" screws through the box and into the ceiling joist. This
is when the box is not mounted on the side, but secure underneath at
the bottom or if the box is plastic. I do suggest using the "approved
for ceiling fan use" boxes when you would not have a sound attachment
present already.
There are a number of retrofit fan support boxes that don't require
opening a larger hole than the box already has.
Screwing a standard ceiling box to a joist is probably adequate to
prevent the box from falling down, but it doesn't address the 8/32
screws that are actually holding the fan to the box. To complete your
conversion, I would drill those holes larger and tap new 10/32 threads
through the back of the box, making it pretty much a fan support box,
without the sticker

On Jan 11, 7:02*pm, wrote:
On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 18:23:42 -0500, RBM wrote:
On 1/11/2013 5:48 PM, mike wrote:
On 1/11/2013 12:48 PM, gary wrote:
I need electricity for a ceiling fan. *In my attic, I found an
existing wire that powers a light switch. I want to run a new wire
from the existing wire to the ceiling fan. *How do I tap into the
existing wire?

You need to read the electrical code in your jurisdiction, wherever
that is.
Tapping into a wire is trivial. *Making it pass inspection may take
more knowledge
than you currently possess. *And the thing that trips you up will
seem trivial or even stupid.

A lot depends on your definition of "ceiling fan".

My neighbor came home with a ceiling fan...the bladed
decapitation type.
I read the instructions and suggested he take it back.

According to the instructions, you can't install the fan
into an existing box in the ceiling. * You need a box
approved for ceiling fan use. *Near as I could tell,
the approved box differed in three areas.
It had a sticker that said, "approved for ceiling fan use".
And a price sticker with a substantially higher price.
And it required opening the ceiling and patching it back up.
I'd hope that there's more of a difference between a standard ceiling
box and a fan support box than just a sticker, price, and necessity to
open the ceiling

Sure there is. *It has to be able to take the weight of the fan and
the vibration without falling out of the ceiling. *It only makes sense
to make sure the thing can take a beating.

We hear the "insurance" nonsense here all the time but it's BS. *The
worrywarts couldn't take a **** without their master's permission.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was thinking the same thing. By now you'd think there would
be case after case cited here by these folks where an insurance
company denied a claim because someone did some work
incorrectly themselves. It might be out there, but I have yet to
see it.

On 01/11/2013 06:59 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 18:23:42 -0500, RBM wrote:

On 1/11/2013 5:48 PM, mike wrote:
On 1/11/2013 12:48 PM, gary wrote:
I need electricity for a ceiling fan. In my attic, I found an
existing wire that powers a light switch. I want to run a new wire
from the existing wire to the ceiling fan. How do I tap into the
existing wire?

You need to read the electrical code in your jurisdiction, wherever
that is.
Tapping into a wire is trivial. Making it pass inspection may take
more knowledge
than you currently possess. And the thing that trips you up will
seem trivial or even stupid.

A lot depends on your definition of "ceiling fan".

My neighbor came home with a ceiling fan...the bladed
decapitation type.
I read the instructions and suggested he take it back.

According to the instructions, you can't install the fan
into an existing box in the ceiling. You need a box
approved for ceiling fan use. Near as I could tell,
the approved box differed in three areas.
It had a sticker that said, "approved for ceiling fan use".
And a price sticker with a substantially higher price.
And it required opening the ceiling and patching it back up.
I'd hope that there's more of a difference between a standard ceiling
box and a fan support box than just a sticker, price, and necessity to
open the ceiling


Ther IS. The ceiling fan box is designed to support the weight of the
swinging ceiling fan and transfer the weight to the ceiling joists.

However, there's no need to open the ceiling, there are ceiling fan
box/hanger kits that will go right in place of the old ceiling box, from
below, with only a little difficulty.

Even if you end up making a bit of a mess of the install a rosette is
cheap and easy, and the simpler ones don't look too bad. (had to use
one at my last place due to a PO's butchery of a strip fluorescent
install, it looked great after caulking and painting.)

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 18:59:40 -0500, wrote:

Ther IS. The ceiling fan box is designed to support the weight of the
swinging ceiling fan and transfer the weight to the ceiling joists.

A regular box is normally just held in place by a couple of roofing
nails or sheetrock screws. If the box comes loose, the fan falls and
might decapitate someone. That someone could be YOU!

On Friday 11 January 2013 22:15 wrote in alt.home.repair:

On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 15:07:52 -0600, Mark Storkamp
wrote:

In article ,
gary wrote:

I need electricity for a ceiling fan. In my attic, I found an existing
wire
that powers a light switch. I want to run a new wire from the existing
wire
to the ceiling fan. How do I tap into the existing wire?

The power may be running to the light, and the wire going to the switch
might only be a loop used to break the circuit to the light. If that's
the case then you can't tap into it there.
So tap into the light then. It's not rocket science either way. The
point is, it HAS to be done at a box. You can't "vampire" it - and the
box needs to be accessible.

Do we even know where the OP lives (ie which electrical regulations are in
effect)?

I agree that screw terminals, regulation or no regulation, need to be
accessible - screws can loosen over time.

However, local regulations *may* permit:

1) http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ804.html - spring loaded
"maintenance free" joints.

2) Crimps - done with a correct ratchet tool and not the piece of tin from
some car radio shop. Granted, not much help with a 3 way tap.

3) Soldered joints, insulated in heatshrink and boxed.

The British IET 17th Edition regulations permit all the above. I have no
idea about the US NEC, or canadian regs.

Soldered joints are an art though - the conductors should be mechanically
bound prior to soldering - eg ferrule or overlapped and a thin copper wire
used to lash them. It's not good enough to just blob them together.



Regarding where to tap:

I can't imagine the OP's jurisdiction has any more different ways of wiring
lighting than the UK. So...

Switch: May have a permanant live/hot. But no neutral.

Light fitting: May be used as a junction box so may have live/hot. neutral
and switched live/hot in which case it is possible.

Or it may just have switched live and neutral and the junction box with live
and neutral is somewhere else.

So the OP needs to possibly find the main feeder cable and joint into that?

Does the fan require a ground/earth and is there one present in the lighting
circuit?

================


Also - do local regulations permit fans running from lighting circuits? How
many amps does the fan take? It's probably OK, but the question needs
asking.


--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://www.dionic.net/tim/

"It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent
moral busybodies."

On Jan 12, 4:15*am, Tim Watts wrote:
On Friday 11 January 2013 22:15 wrote in alt.home.repair:





On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 15:07:52 -0600, Mark Storkamp
wrote:

In article ,
gary wrote:

I need electricity for a ceiling fan. *In my attic, I found an existing
wire
that powers a light switch. *I want to run a new wire from the existing
wire
to the ceiling fan. *How do I tap into the existing wire?

The power may be running to the light, and the wire going to the switch
might only be a loop used to break the circuit to the light. If that's
the case then you can't tap into it there.
*So tap into the light then. It's not rocket science either way. The
point is, it HAS to be done at a box. You can't "vampire" it - and the
box needs to be accessible.

Do we even know where the OP lives (ie which electrical regulations are in
effect)?


Yes, you have a point. I should have qualified my answer
with the fact that it applies to most of the USA. Also many
places require a permit to do that work, though most are
done without one, required or not.

On Sat, 12 Jan 2013 09:15:49 +0000, Tim Watts
wrote:

On Friday 11 January 2013 22:15 wrote in alt.home.repair:

On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 15:07:52 -0600, Mark Storkamp
wrote:

In article ,
gary wrote:

I need electricity for a ceiling fan. In my attic, I found an existing
wire
that powers a light switch. I want to run a new wire from the existing
wire
to the ceiling fan. How do I tap into the existing wire?

The power may be running to the light, and the wire going to the switch
might only be a loop used to break the circuit to the light. If that's
the case then you can't tap into it there.
So tap into the light then. It's not rocket science either way. The
point is, it HAS to be done at a box. You can't "vampire" it - and the
box needs to be accessible.

Do we even know where the OP lives (ie which electrical regulations are in
effect)?

I agree that screw terminals, regulation or no regulation, need to be
accessible - screws can loosen over time.

However, local regulations *may* permit:

1) http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ804.html - spring loaded
"maintenance free" joints.

2) Crimps - done with a correct ratchet tool and not the piece of tin from
some car radio shop. Granted, not much help with a 3 way tap.

3) Soldered joints, insulated in heatshrink and boxed.

The British IET 17th Edition regulations permit all the above. I have no
idea about the US NEC, or canadian regs.

Soldered joints are an art though - the conductors should be mechanically
bound prior to soldering - eg ferrule or overlapped and a thin copper wire
used to lash them. It's not good enough to just blob them together.


Until very recently ALL of the above were forbifdden by american and
canadian code.
In some areas the "vampire" clips formerly allowed in mobile homes are
now also allowed in permanent residential installations - although I
would NEVER use them - even in a trailer.

Regarding where to tap:

I can't imagine the OP's jurisdiction has any more different ways of wiring
lighting than the UK. So...

Switch: May have a permanant live/hot. But no neutral.

Or may have both

Light fitting: May be used as a junction box so may have live/hot. neutral
and switched live/hot in which case it is possible.

Or it may just have switched live and neutral and the junction box with live
and neutral is somewhere else.

So the OP needs to possibly find the main feeder cable and joint into that?

Unlike UK "ring circuits" there is no "feeder" per se. All circuits
have "home runs" to the service panel, where they are protected by a
breaker (or in some cases , still) a fuse.

Does the fan require a ground/earth and is there one present in the lighting
circuit?

In all recent (last 40 years or so) north american installations the
ground is there and required.

================


Also - do local regulations permit fans running from lighting circuits? How
many amps does the fan take? It's probably OK, but the question needs
asking.
The fan draws less than most lights - and in all North American
codes lighting and ancilliary loads can be shared on the same circuit.

On Saturday 12 January 2013 18:24 wrote in
alt.home.repair:

Until very recently ALL of the above were forbifdden by american and
canadian code.
In some areas the "vampire" clips formerly allowed in mobile homes are
now also allowed in permanent residential installations - although I
would NEVER use them - even in a trailer.

Like these:

http://www.wppltd.demon.co.uk/WPP/Co.../Scotchlok.jpg

?

If so - oh dear... I have used them in a car, in the old days. But they
have no place in house wiring.

Unlike UK "ring circuits" there is no "feeder" per se. All circuits
have "home runs" to the service panel, where they are protected by a
breaker (or in some cases , still) a fuse.

Possible slight confusion?

Ring circuits are for sockets and make a peculiar (but valid if conditions
are met) claim that you can use nominal 20A rated cable for a 32A protected
circuit based on there being 2 paths back to the fuse box.

Lighting, in the UK, has always bee "tree wired" - ie one or two cables leav
ethe fuse/breaker and then branch all around the place until every
subcircuit on a lighting circuit has been fed.

I'm curious - do you really bring 5-15 cables back to the fusebox for a
single lighting circuit if you have 5-15 switched sets of lights? Or do you
put a lot less lights on a single breaker?

Me: I'm running with 2 circuits (pretty normal for a UK house), both 10A
(regs permit 6A, 10A and 16A - 6A is most common, and 16A is usually for
commercial premises).


Does the fan require a ground/earth and is there one present in the
lighting circuit?

In all recent (last 40 years or so) north american installations the
ground is there and required.

Curiously, if you go back to even the 1980's in England, (change was between
the 15th to 16th Editions of the regs IIRC) not every point on a lighting
circuit needed an earth provided *unless* the fitted was Class I (ie
earthed). This of course was a bugger if a double insulated fitting was
swapped out and a Class I installed.


================


Also - do local regulations permit fans running from lighting circuits?
How many amps does the fan take? It's probably OK, but the question needs
asking.
The fan draws less than most lights - and in all North American
codes lighting and ancilliary loads can be shared on the same circuit.

OK - thanks for that. Pretty much the same then.

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://www.dionic.net/tim/

"History will be kind to me for I intend to write it."

On 1/12/2013 12:24 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jan 2013 09:15:49 +0000, Tim
wrote:

....

However, local regulations *may* permit:

1) http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ804.html - spring loaded
"maintenance free" joints.

2) Crimps - done with a correct ratchet tool and not the piece of tin from
some car radio shop. Granted, not much help with a 3 way tap.

3) Soldered joints, insulated in heatshrink and boxed.

The British IET 17th Edition regulations permit all the above. I have no
idea about the US NEC, or canadian regs.

....

Until very recently ALL of the above were forbifdden by american and
canadian code.
....

Well, that's just not so--soldering has been acceptable by NEC since the
git-go w/ the provision as above mentioned of mechanically sound
irrespective of the solder.

110.14 Electrical Connections. ...
...
(B) Splices. Conductors shall be spliced or joined with
splicing devices identified for the use or by brazing, welding,
or soldering with a fusible metal or alloy. Soldered
splices shall first be spliced or joined so as to be mechanically
and electrically secure without solder and then be
soldered. All splices and joints and the free ends of conductors
shall be covered with an insulation equivalent to that of
the conductors or with an insulating device identified for
the purpose. ...

--

On Sat, 12 Jan 2013 18:54:34 +0000, Tim Watts
wrote:

On Saturday 12 January 2013 18:24 wrote in
alt.home.repair:

Until very recently ALL of the above were forbifdden by american and
canadian code.
In some areas the "vampire" clips formerly allowed in mobile homes are
now also allowed in permanent residential installations - although I
would NEVER use them - even in a trailer.

Like these:

http://www.wppltd.demon.co.uk/WPP/Co.../Scotchlok.jpg

?

No, not like that at all - but just as useless, in my opinion

If so - oh dear... I have used them in a car, in the old days. But they
have no place in house wiring.

Unlike UK "ring circuits" there is no "feeder" per se. All circuits
have "home runs" to the service panel, where they are protected by a
breaker (or in some cases , still) a fuse.

Possible slight confusion?

Ring circuits are for sockets and make a peculiar (but valid if conditions
are met) claim that you can use nominal 20A rated cable for a 32A protected
circuit based on there being 2 paths back to the fuse box.

Lighting, in the UK, has always bee "tree wired" - ie one or two cables leav
ethe fuse/breaker and then branch all around the place until every
subcircuit on a lighting circuit has been fed.

I'm curious - do you really bring 5-15 cables back to the fusebox for a
single lighting circuit if you have 5-15 switched sets of lights? Or do you
put a lot less lights on a single breaker?

My house has a small panel - it's only got 16 circuits. 2 of those
feed the range, 2 feed the drier, 2 for the AC, So 10 15 amp circuits
left.for the rest of the house. Not sure what the code limit is now as
far as how many lights or outlets on a circuit, but there are about 25
outlets and lights combined in the house, plus 2 exterior oulets and 2
exteriour lights, plus the garage.

A typical circuit would run cable from breaker to an outlet, on to
another outlet, then on to a couple of lights, with drop switches - or
on to a couple of light switches, feeding one or two lights per
switch.

Me: I'm running with 2 circuits (pretty normal for a UK house), both 10A
(regs permit 6A, 10A and 16A - 6A is most common, and 16A is usually for
commercial premises).


2 10 amp circuits in UK provide the same power as 1 20 amp circuit in
America.. No way you would ever get away with that little power in an
American or Canadian home.

Does the fan require a ground/earth and is there one present in the
lighting circuit?

In all recent (last 40 years or so) north american installations the
ground is there and required.

Curiously, if you go back to even the 1980's in England, (change was between
the 15th to 16th Editions of the regs IIRC) not every point on a lighting
circuit needed an earth provided *unless* the fitted was Class I (ie
earthed). This of course was a bugger if a double insulated fitting was
swapped out and a Class I installed.


================


Also - do local regulations permit fans running from lighting circuits?
How many amps does the fan take? It's probably OK, but the question needs
asking.
The fan draws less than most lights - and in all North American
codes lighting and ancilliary loads can be shared on the same circuit.

OK - thanks for that. Pretty much the same then.

On Sat, 12 Jan 2013 13:15:32 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 1/12/2013 12:24 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jan 2013 09:15:49 +0000, Tim
wrote:

...

However, local regulations *may* permit:

1) http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ804.html - spring loaded
"maintenance free" joints.

2) Crimps - done with a correct ratchet tool and not the piece of tin from
some car radio shop. Granted, not much help with a 3 way tap.

3) Soldered joints, insulated in heatshrink and boxed.

The British IET 17th Edition regulations permit all the above. I have no
idea about the US NEC, or canadian regs.

...

Until very recently ALL of the above were forbifdden by american and
canadian code.
...

Well, that's just not so--soldering has been acceptable by NEC since the
git-go w/ the provision as above mentioned of mechanically sound
irrespective of the solder.

110.14 Electrical Connections. ...
...
(B) Splices. Conductors shall be spliced or joined with
splicing devices identified for the use or by brazing, welding,
or soldering with a fusible metal or alloy. Soldered
splices shall first be spliced or joined so as to be mechanically
and electrically secure without solder and then be
soldered. All splices and joints and the free ends of conductors
shall be covered with an insulation equivalent to that of
the conductors or with an insulating device identified for
the purpose. ...
OK - allowed in the USA - not allowed in the areas of Canada I am
familliar with. Soldered was allowed/required with H&T wiring - not
allowed with non-metallic sheathed cable.

On Saturday 12 January 2013 21:01 wrote in
alt.home.repair:


A typical circuit would run cable from breaker to an outlet, on to
another outlet, then on to a couple of lights, with drop switches - or
on to a couple of light switches, feeding one or two lights per
switch.

Me: I'm running with 2 circuits (pretty normal for a UK house), both 10A
(regs permit 6A, 10A and 16A - 6A is most common, and 16A is usually for
commercial premises).


2 10 amp circuits in UK provide the same power as 1 20 amp circuit in
America.. No way you would ever get away with that little power in an
American or Canadian home.

Ah - so your lighting and socket circuits are combined. Think I've seen
something similar in Switzerland.

In which case it makes sense. Our word for that type of socket circuit is
"radial" (to differenciate it from "ring"). It is a permitted circuit,
usually 16A or 20A but can be done at 32A, but the required cable size
becomes prohibitive at 32A. However, we would never combine lighting at
sockets on the same circuit - although by the regs, it could be done with a
16A breaker - but never is.

A typical old style house would have 2 lighting circuits (lighting only plus
odd things like bathroom extractor fans) - one upstairs, one downstairs.

Then typically 2 32A ring circuits - upstairs and downstairs.

Then a cooker circuit, another for shower etc.


My house, done to my own design and wired by me (I hold some qualifications
and the correct test instrument, so my building inspector is happy for me to
sign my own work off) has:

2 indoor lighting circuits at 10A each, north end and south end

4 32A rings for sockets

1 45A circuit for backup heating (if gas boiler fails)

1 10A outdoor lighting (RCD/GFCI more likely to trip due to bugs and damp)

1 16A "radial" for a couple of outdoor sockets (own circuit fo rsam ereason
as above).

1 32A workshop (well, big shed) supply, if I ever get around to it.

That's fed off a 100A 230V incomer.

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://www.dionic.net/tim/

"She got her looks from her father. He's a plastic surgeon."

" wrote:

On Jan 11, 7:02*pm, wrote:

We hear the "insurance" nonsense here all the time but it's BS. *The
worrywarts couldn't take a **** without their master's permission.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was thinking the same thing. By now you'd think there would
be case after case cited here by these folks where an insurance
company denied a claim because someone did some work
incorrectly themselves. It might be out there, but I have yet to
see it.

I once asked two independent insurance adjusters if insurers would deny such a
claim. Neither one hesitated before saying "They'd pay."

I've been all over my homeowner's policy. The only clause that might allow them
to deny such a claim would be if they could establish it was deliberate with the
goal of burning the house down.

Please write down the date and time. This is an event unlikely to occur ever
again. The three of us agreeing on something.

-- Doug

submitted this idea :
On Sat, 12 Jan 2013 18:54:34 +0000, Tim Watts
wrote:




2 10 amp circuits in UK provide the same power as 1 20 amp circuit in
America.. No way you would ever get away with that little power in an
American or Canadian home.

2 X 10 amps in UK = 2 x 10 x 230 = 4600 Watts

1 X 20 amps in US = 1 x 20 x 120 = 2400 Watts

According to my calculator. :-?

--
John G

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 13:35:46 +1100, John G
wrote:

submitted this idea :
On Sat, 12 Jan 2013 18:54:34 +0000, Tim Watts
wrote:




2 10 amp circuits in UK provide the same power as 1 20 amp circuit in
America.. No way you would ever get away with that little power in an
American or Canadian home.

2 X 10 amps in UK = 2 x 10 x 230 = 4600 Watts

1 X 20 amps in US = 1 x 20 x 120 = 2400 Watts

According to my calculator. :-?

Sorry - I meant one 10 amp circuit in UK provides same power as 1 20
amp in USA, and NO WAY would you get away with that little power ( 2
circuits) in a house in USA or Canada.

On Sunday 13 January 2013 04:40 wrote in alt.home.repair:

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 13:35:46 +1100, John G
wrote:

submitted this idea :
On Sat, 12 Jan 2013 18:54:34 +0000, Tim Watts
wrote:




2 10 amp circuits in UK provide the same power as 1 20 amp circuit in
America.. No way you would ever get away with that little power in an
American or Canadian home.

2 X 10 amps in UK = 2 x 10 x 230 = 4600 Watts

1 X 20 amps in US = 1 x 20 x 120 = 2400 Watts

According to my calculator. :-?

Sorry - I meant one 10 amp circuit in UK provides same power as 1 20
amp in USA, and NO WAY would you get away with that little power ( 2
circuits) in a house in USA or Canada.

That was just lighting (in the UK example).
--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://www.dionic.net/tim/

"It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent
moral busybodies."

On Jan 12, 4:59*pm, Douglas Johnson wrote:
" wrote:
On Jan 11, 7:02*pm, wrote:
We hear the "insurance" nonsense here all the time but it's BS. *The
worrywarts couldn't take a **** without their master's permission.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was thinking the same thing. *By now you'd think there would
be case after case cited here by these folks where an insurance
company denied a claim because someone did some work
incorrectly themselves. * It might be out there, but I have yet to
see it.

I once asked two independent insurance adjusters if insurers would deny such a
claim. *Neither one hesitated before saying "They'd pay."

I've been all over my homeowner's policy. *The only clause that might allow them
to deny such a claim would be if they could establish it was deliberate with the
goal of burning the house down.

Please write down the date and time. *This is an event unlikely to occur ever
again. *The three of us agreeing on something.

-- Doug

Not to spoil the moment, but I can think of one potential
line of argument to deny a claim. Typically homeowners insurance
doesn't cover criminal acts that you commit. They could
argue that the electrical circuit you added without a permit
that was done incorrectly was a violation of the law.
But I'm not sure it meets the level of a true criminal act.
And they would have to prove that it was the cause of
the loss, etc.

Claims may in fact have been denied for work that
was done incorrectly by a homeowner, without a permit,
etc., somewhere, sometime. But if it's happened, funny
that the folks that keep bringing this up don't have cases
to show us. If they do, I'd be happy to see them.

" wrote:
On Jan 12, 4:59 pm, Douglas Johnson wrote:
" wrote:
On Jan 11, 7:02 pm, wrote:
We hear the "insurance" nonsense here all the time but it's BS. The
worrywarts couldn't take a **** without their master's permission.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was thinking the same thing. By now you'd think there would
be case after case cited here by these folks where an insurance
company denied a claim because someone did some work
incorrectly themselves. It might be out there, but I have yet to
see it.

I once asked two independent insurance adjusters if insurers would deny such a
claim. Neither one hesitated before saying "They'd pay."

I've been all over my homeowner's policy. The only clause that might allow them
to deny such a claim would be if they could establish it was deliberate with the
goal of burning the house down.

Please write down the date and time. This is an event unlikely to occur ever
again. The three of us agreeing on something.

-- Doug

Not to spoil the moment, but I can think of one potential
line of argument to deny a claim. Typically homeowners insurance
doesn't cover criminal acts that you commit. They could
argue that the electrical circuit you added without a permit
that was done incorrectly was a violation of the law.
But I'm not sure it meets the level of a true criminal act.
And they would have to prove that it was the cause of
the loss, etc.

Claims may in fact have been denied for work that
was done incorrectly by a homeowner, without a permit,
etc., somewhere, sometime. But if it's happened, funny
that the folks that keep bringing this up don't have cases
to show us. If they do, I'd be happy to see them.

I, for one, would not be happy to see them.

I'm quite happy believing that all of the upgrades I've done to my
electrical system are not going to come back and bite me should I ever, God
forbid, have to put in a fire related claim.

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 07:18:33 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Jan 12, 4:59*pm, Douglas Johnson wrote:
" wrote:
On Jan 11, 7:02*pm, wrote:
We hear the "insurance" nonsense here all the time but it's BS. *The
worrywarts couldn't take a **** without their master's permission.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was thinking the same thing. *By now you'd think there would
be case after case cited here by these folks where an insurance
company denied a claim because someone did some work
incorrectly themselves. * It might be out there, but I have yet to
see it.

I once asked two independent insurance adjusters if insurers would deny such a
claim. *Neither one hesitated before saying "They'd pay."

I've been all over my homeowner's policy. *The only clause that might allow them
to deny such a claim would be if they could establish it was deliberate with the
goal of burning the house down.

Please write down the date and time. *This is an event unlikely to occur ever
again. *The three of us agreeing on something.

-- Doug

Not to spoil the moment, but I can think of one potential
line of argument to deny a claim. Typically homeowners insurance
doesn't cover criminal acts that you commit. They could
argue that the electrical circuit you added without a permit
that was done incorrectly was a violation of the law.
But I'm not sure it meets the level of a true criminal act.
And they would have to prove that it was the cause of
the loss, etc.

It is not a criminal act. Infraction crime.

Claims may in fact have been denied for work that
was done incorrectly by a homeowner, without a permit,
etc., somewhere, sometime. But if it's happened, funny
that the folks that keep bringing this up don't have cases
to show us. If they do, I'd be happy to see them.


Citation needed.

On Jan 13, 12:46*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 07:18:33 -0800 (PST), "





wrote:
On Jan 12, 4:59 pm, Douglas Johnson wrote:
" wrote:
On Jan 11, 7:02 pm, wrote:
We hear the "insurance" nonsense here all the time but it's BS. The
worrywarts couldn't take a **** without their master's permission.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was thinking the same thing. By now you'd think there would
be case after case cited here by these folks where an insurance
company denied a claim because someone did some work
incorrectly themselves. It might be out there, but I have yet to
see it.

I once asked two independent insurance adjusters if insurers would deny such a
claim. Neither one hesitated before saying "They'd pay."

I've been all over my homeowner's policy. The only clause that might allow them
to deny such a claim would be if they could establish it was deliberate with the
goal of burning the house down.

Please write down the date and time. This is an event unlikely to occur ever
again. The three of us agreeing on something.

-- Doug

Not to spoil the moment, but I can think of one potential
line of argument to deny a claim. *Typically homeowners insurance
doesn't cover criminal acts that you commit. *They could
argue that the electrical circuit you added without a permit
that was done incorrectly was a violation of the law.
But I'm not sure it meets the level of a true criminal act.
And they would have to prove that it was the cause of
the loss, etc.

It is not a criminal act. *Infraction crime.

Why? How would you know all the building code laws
and penalties across the USA? You can clearly be prosecuted
in court for building code violations. If convicted, they can
certainly fine you and I would think in certain circumstances
they could probably impose a jail sentence. What exactly
does it take to make something a criminal act? Let's take
an extreme example. Let's say somebody runs their own
gas line, using garden hose. The house blows up, killing
2 children. Might they not be charged with manslaughter?
Isn't that a criminal act?

And note again, I'm not saying this routinely happens in
insurance cases, where a claim is denied because the
homeowner did work that caused say a fire, that was
done wrong, without a permit. I agree, if it happens it
must be rare because no one here seems able to find
an example.

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 10:11:38 +0000, Tim Watts
wrote:

On Sunday 13 January 2013 04:40 wrote in alt.home.repair:

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 13:35:46 +1100, John G
wrote:

submitted this idea :
On Sat, 12 Jan 2013 18:54:34 +0000, Tim Watts
wrote:




2 10 amp circuits in UK provide the same power as 1 20 amp circuit in
America.. No way you would ever get away with that little power in an
American or Canadian home.

2 X 10 amps in UK = 2 x 10 x 230 = 4600 Watts

1 X 20 amps in US = 1 x 20 x 120 = 2400 Watts

According to my calculator. :-?

Sorry - I meant one 10 amp circuit in UK provides same power as 1 20
amp in USA, and NO WAY would you get away with that little power ( 2
circuits) in a house in USA or Canada.

That was just lighting (in the UK example).
Insufficient even for lighting in MANY North American homes. - but as
I noted, here there is no such thing as a "lighting circuit" in MOST
cases. The only time you would have a "lighting circuit" would be if
you had massive Low Voltage Control or dimmer panels - basically
theatre lighting.

On Jan 13, 1:23*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 10:11:38 +0000, Tim Watts
wrote:





On Sunday 13 January 2013 04:40 wrote in alt.home.repair:

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 13:35:46 +1100, John G
wrote:

submitted this idea :
On Sat, 12 Jan 2013 18:54:34 +0000, Tim Watts
wrote:

2 10 amp circuits in UK provide the same power as 1 20 amp circuit in
America.. No way you would ever get away with that little power in an
American or Canadian home.

2 X 10 amps in UK = 2 x 10 x 230 = 4600 Watts

1 X 20 amps in US = 1 x 20 x 120 = 2400 Watts

According to my calculator. :-?

*Sorry - I meant one 10 amp circuit in UK provides same power as 1 20
amp in USA, and NO WAY would you get away with that little power *( 2
circuits) in a house in USA or Canada.

That was just lighting (in the UK example).

*Insufficient even for lighting in MANY North American homes. - but as
I noted, here there is no such thing as a "lighting circuit" in MOST
cases. The only time you would have a "lighting circuit" would be if
you had massive Low Voltage Control or dimmer panels - basically
theatre lighting.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What exactly is a lighting circuit? If it's just a circuit
that has only lights on it, then it's not all that unusual,'
is it? You could add a circuit to run 4 outside
flood lights for example. I agree most circuits you're
going to find don't have just lights, but it's not all that
unusual either or limited to the the couple of cases
given.

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 13:23:00 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 10:11:38 +0000, Tim Watts
wrote:

On Sunday 13 January 2013 04:40 wrote in alt.home.repair:

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 13:35:46 +1100, John G
wrote:

submitted this idea :
On Sat, 12 Jan 2013 18:54:34 +0000, Tim Watts
wrote:




2 10 amp circuits in UK provide the same power as 1 20 amp circuit in
America.. No way you would ever get away with that little power in an
American or Canadian home.

2 X 10 amps in UK = 2 x 10 x 230 = 4600 Watts

1 X 20 amps in US = 1 x 20 x 120 = 2400 Watts

According to my calculator. :-?

Sorry - I meant one 10 amp circuit in UK provides same power as 1 20
amp in USA, and NO WAY would you get away with that little power ( 2
circuits) in a house in USA or Canada.

That was just lighting (in the UK example).
Insufficient even for lighting in MANY North American homes. - but as
I noted, here there is no such thing as a "lighting circuit" in MOST
cases. The only time you would have a "lighting circuit" would be if
you had massive Low Voltage Control or dimmer panels - basically
theatre lighting.

Huh? I have several lighting circuits and am adding more.

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 10:04:34 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Jan 13, 12:46*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 07:18:33 -0800 (PST), "





wrote:
On Jan 12, 4:59 pm, Douglas Johnson wrote:
" wrote:
On Jan 11, 7:02 pm, wrote:
We hear the "insurance" nonsense here all the time but it's BS. The
worrywarts couldn't take a **** without their master's permission.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was thinking the same thing. By now you'd think there would
be case after case cited here by these folks where an insurance
company denied a claim because someone did some work
incorrectly themselves. It might be out there, but I have yet to
see it.

I once asked two independent insurance adjusters if insurers would deny such a
claim. Neither one hesitated before saying "They'd pay."

I've been all over my homeowner's policy. The only clause that might allow them
to deny such a claim would be if they could establish it was deliberate with the
goal of burning the house down.

Please write down the date and time. This is an event unlikely to occur ever
again. The three of us agreeing on something.

-- Doug

Not to spoil the moment, but I can think of one potential
line of argument to deny a claim. *Typically homeowners insurance
doesn't cover criminal acts that you commit. *They could
argue that the electrical circuit you added without a permit
that was done incorrectly was a violation of the law.
But I'm not sure it meets the level of a true criminal act.
And they would have to prove that it was the cause of
the loss, etc.

It is not a criminal act. *Infraction crime.

Why? How would you know all the building code laws
and penalties across the USA?

Show me one that is a felony. You can't.

You can clearly be prosecuted
in court for building code violations. If convicted, they can
certainly fine you and I would think in certain circumstances
they could probably impose a jail sentence. What exactly
does it take to make something a criminal act? Let's take
an extreme example. Let's say somebody runs their own
gas line, using garden hose. The house blows up, killing
2 children. Might they not be charged with manslaughter?
Isn't that a criminal act?

Go back to sleep. You might find someone there who wants to argue
with you for the sake of arguing.

And note again, I'm not saying this routinely happens in
insurance cases, where a claim is denied because the
homeowner did work that caused say a fire, that was
done wrong, without a permit. I agree, if it happens it
must be rare because no one here seems able to find
an example.

Citation, or STFU.

wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 10:11:38 +0000, Tim Watts
wrote:

On Sunday 13 January 2013 04:40 wrote in alt.home.repair:

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 13:35:46 +1100, John G
wrote:

submitted this idea :
On Sat, 12 Jan 2013 18:54:34 +0000, Tim Watts
wrote:




2 10 amp circuits in UK provide the same power as 1 20 amp circuit in
America.. No way you would ever get away with that little power in an
American or Canadian home.

2 X 10 amps in UK = 2 x 10 x 230 = 4600 Watts

1 X 20 amps in US = 1 x 20 x 120 = 2400 Watts

According to my calculator. :-?

Sorry - I meant one 10 amp circuit in UK provides same power as 1 20
amp in USA, and NO WAY would you get away with that little power ( 2
circuits) in a house in USA or Canada.

That was just lighting (in the UK example).
Insufficient even for lighting in MANY North American homes. - but as
I noted, here there is no such thing as a "lighting circuit" in MOST
cases. The only time you would have a "lighting circuit" would be if
you had massive Low Voltage Control or dimmer panels - basically
theatre lighting.

Maybe I'm missing your meaning of "lighting circuit".

Many workshops are wired with the lights on their own circuit. Keeps the
place from going dark when a piece of power equipment pops the breaker.
That's how I wired mine. I put in a dedicated circuit for the shop lights
so nothing but a complete power failure will leave me stumbling around in a
dark workshop.

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 00:14:02 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 10:11:38 +0000, Tim Watts
wrote:

On Sunday 13 January 2013 04:40 wrote in alt.home.repair:

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 13:35:46 +1100, John G
wrote:

submitted this idea :
On Sat, 12 Jan 2013 18:54:34 +0000, Tim Watts
wrote:




2 10 amp circuits in UK provide the same power as 1 20 amp circuit in
America.. No way you would ever get away with that little power in an
American or Canadian home.

2 X 10 amps in UK = 2 x 10 x 230 = 4600 Watts

1 X 20 amps in US = 1 x 20 x 120 = 2400 Watts

According to my calculator. :-?

Sorry - I meant one 10 amp circuit in UK provides same power as 1 20
amp in USA, and NO WAY would you get away with that little power ( 2
circuits) in a house in USA or Canada.

That was just lighting (in the UK example).
Insufficient even for lighting in MANY North American homes. - but as
I noted, here there is no such thing as a "lighting circuit" in MOST
cases. The only time you would have a "lighting circuit" would be if
you had massive Low Voltage Control or dimmer panels - basically
theatre lighting.

Maybe I'm missing your meaning of "lighting circuit".

Many workshops are wired with the lights on their own circuit. Keeps the
place from going dark when a piece of power equipment pops the breaker.
That's how I wired mine. I put in a dedicated circuit for the shop lights
so nothing but a complete power failure will leave me stumbling around in a
dark workshop.

As Clare pointed out, it's also common for kitchens and other rooms
that have a lot of can lighting. It makes a lot of sense everywhere,
but it's rarely done.