I own a property (a house) that is vacant and mostly gutted at this point,
and it is essentially a shell on the upper floors. But, just recently,
thieves broke into the ground-level basement and stole all of the copper
plumbing.

The house has hot water cast iron radiator heat, and what they took was all
of the large copper heating pipes and the regular copper water pipes from
the basement, and the small amount of 1/2-inch copper water pipe that was
left on the empty first floor. All of the remaining pipes are the old
threaded iron pipes and they left them as-is.

At this point, since winter is approaching, my plan is to just drain all of
the water from all lines, the hot water heater and boiler, the cast iron
radiators etc., and "winterize" the property so that nothing breaks during
sub-freezing temperatures. The house does have electricity, but the water
will be completely shut off at the curb.

My question is about the small piece of pipe for the main water supply line
that will be left and that comes into the basement from the outside through
the basement floor. Here are two photos of what is there now:


http://i46.tinypic.com/207ugr7.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/2qkm2bp.jpg



The thieves shut off the main water valve, disconnected the copper from the
water meter, and took all of the copper from that point forward. The main
water valve is old and doesn't completely shut off, so a lot of water came
in, but it's an unfinished basement with a floor drain so not much got water
damaged.



After the theft, I took off the water meter and capped the main water line
for now. My plan is to shut off the main water valve at the street, install
a new 3/4-inch shut-off ball valve with a stop-and-waste port, and put the
water meter back on.



My concern is about the small amount of pipe and the water meter that will
be on the inside of the property during the winter with no heat in the
building.



Here's my question:



If I put a stop-and-waste ball valve in the vertical water supply line a few
inches above the floor, then put the water meter back on, keep the water
turned off at the street, and open the drain port on the valve and leave the
valve open, will that keep the supply line and water meter from freezing and
cracking during the winter?



As a backup precaution, I also will either wrap the pipe with a plugged-in
pipe heater line and/or create some other kind of heat source for that short
piece of pipe such as by using an incandescent lightbulb (maybe inside a
small insulated box/space covering the pipe).



Does that plan sound okay? Any other ideas or suggestions that I should
consider?



Thanks.

Tom,

If I follow you, you have a vacant house that you are renovating.
Recently thieves stole all of the copper piping. You have an unfinished
basement and have turned off the water at the main valve located in this
basement. You plan to use an electric heat source
to supply some heat to your cut off valve and water meter.
I'd not rely on electric solutions. Those wires are copper and the world
is full of thieves. It sounds as if the cutoff valve is a new install and
the water is shut off at the curb so leave the cutoff valve open . Take the
water meter home and stick it in a heated space.

Dave M.

On Mon, 3 Dec 2012 18:38:24 -0500, "David L. Martel"
wrote:

Take the
water meter home and stick it in a heated space.

Wouldn't the water from the service line flood the street?

Just sayin'

"TomR" wrote in message
...
I own a property (a house) that is vacant and mostly gutted at this point,
and it is essentially a shell on the upper floors. But, just recently,
thieves broke into the ground-level basement and stole all of the copper
plumbing.

The house has hot water cast iron radiator heat, and what they took was
all of the large copper heating pipes and the regular copper water pipes
from the basement, and the small amount of 1/2-inch copper water pipe that
was left on the empty first floor. All of the remaining pipes are the old
threaded iron pipes and they left them as-is.

At this point, since winter is approaching, my plan is to just drain all
of the water from all lines, the hot water heater and boiler, the cast
iron radiators etc., and "winterize" the property so that nothing breaks
during sub-freezing temperatures. The house does have electricity, but
the water will be completely shut off at the curb.

My question is about the small piece of pipe for the main water supply
line that will be left and that comes into the basement from the outside
through the basement floor. Here are two photos of what is there now:


http://i46.tinypic.com/207ugr7.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/2qkm2bp.jpg



The thieves shut off the main water valve, disconnected the copper from
the water meter, and took all of the copper from that point forward. The
main water valve is old and doesn't completely shut off, so a lot of water
came in, but it's an unfinished basement with a floor drain so not much
got water damaged.



After the theft, I took off the water meter and capped the main water line
for now. My plan is to shut off the main water valve at the street,
install a new 3/4-inch shut-off ball valve with a stop-and-waste port, and
put the water meter back on.



My concern is about the small amount of pipe and the water meter that will
be on the inside of the property during the winter with no heat in the
building.



Here's my question:



If I put a stop-and-waste ball valve in the vertical water supply line a
few inches above the floor, then put the water meter back on, keep the
water turned off at the street, and open the drain port on the valve and
leave the valve open, will that keep the supply line and water meter from
freezing and cracking during the winter?



As a backup precaution, I also will either wrap the pipe with a plugged-in
pipe heater line and/or create some other kind of heat source for that
short piece of pipe such as by using an incandescent lightbulb (maybe
inside a small insulated box/space covering the pipe).



Does that plan sound okay? Any other ideas or suggestions that I should
consider?



Thanks.



If one end is open-, is this doeable---- get as much water out of the open
pipe as possible. Then put RV anti freeze into the lines.
MLD

sounds like you will have no need for water over the winter.

if thats the case shut off water at curb, remove the valve and
fittings from the incoming water line indoors......

then siphon the remaining above floor water stuck in the line with
aquarium tubing....... suck on it if needed...

leave the meter and everything off till spring.

this way you have no need to heat the line or worry about a possible
freeze up, since there will be no water to freeze.....

I do like the RV antifreeze idea. I question, how far you can get the pink
stuff, into a water line coming into a house.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"MLD" wrote in message ...

If one end is open-, is this doeable---- get as much water out of the open
pipe as possible. Then put RV anti freeze into the lines.
MLD

If the water's shut off at the street, and the valve is not dribbling. You
might be able to boil the water out of the copper, with a torch. I saw an
old plumber dry a copper pipe that way, once.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"bob haller" wrote in message
...
sounds like you will have no need for water over the winter.

if thats the case shut off water at curb, remove the valve and
fittings from the incoming water line indoors......

then siphon the remaining above floor water stuck in the line with
aquarium tubing....... suck on it if needed...

leave the meter and everything off till spring.

this way you have no need to heat the line or worry about a possible
freeze up, since there will be no water to freeze.....

Stormin Mormon wrote:

If the water's shut off at the street, and the valve is not dribbling. You
might be able to boil the water out of the copper, with a torch. I saw an
old plumber dry a copper pipe that way, once.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"bob haller" wrote in message
...
sounds like you will have no need for water over the winter.

if thats the case shut off water at curb, remove the valve and
fittings from the incoming water line indoors......

then siphon the remaining above floor water stuck in the line with
aquarium tubing....... suck on it if needed...

leave the meter and everything off till spring.

this way you have no need to heat the line or worry about a possible
freeze up, since there will be no water to freeze.....

If it's copper, especially as it looks like soft/annealed copper given the
bendiness in the picture, I don't think there's any need to go to town
drying out the pipe. Just leave the inside end open.

I've never had copper pipe split under such conditions. Lead's a bugger for
splitting with ice and copper can be damaged if the pipe is full and shut
off both ends - though it's more likely to try to push fittings apart if it
can.

Cheers,

Tim
--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://www.dionic.net/tim/

"History will be kind to me for I intend to write it."

Oren,

I presume that the service line is below the freeze depth and will not
freeze. The water is cut off at the curb. The OP seems concerned about his
connector to the service line, his basement cut off valve and his basement
water meter, if I've understood him correctly.
How do you think that water from the service line will get to the street?

Dave M.

MLD wrote:
"TomR" wrote in message
...
I own a property (a house) that is vacant and mostly gutted at this
point, and it is essentially a shell on the upper floors. But, just
recently, thieves broke into the ground-level basement and stole all
of the copper plumbing.

The house has hot water cast iron radiator heat, and what they took
was all of the large copper heating pipes and the regular copper
water pipes from the basement, and the small amount of 1/2-inch
copper water pipe that was left on the empty first floor. All of
the remaining pipes are the old threaded iron pipes and they left
them as-is. At this point, since winter is approaching, my plan is to
just drain
all of the water from all lines, the hot water heater and boiler,
the cast iron radiators etc., and "winterize" the property so that
nothing breaks during sub-freezing temperatures. The house does
have electricity, but the water will be completely shut off at the
curb. My question is about the small piece of pipe for the main water
supply line that will be left and that comes into the basement from
the outside through the basement floor. Here are two photos of what
is there now: http://i46.tinypic.com/207ugr7.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/2qkm2bp.jpg

The thieves shut off the main water valve, disconnected the copper
from the water meter, and took all of the copper from that point
forward. The main water valve is old and doesn't completely shut
off, so a lot of water came in, but it's an unfinished basement with
a floor drain so not much got water damaged.

After the theft, I took off the water meter and capped the main
water line for now. My plan is to shut off the main water valve at
the street, install a new 3/4-inch shut-off ball valve with a
stop-and-waste port, and put the water meter back on.



My concern is about the small amount of pipe and the water meter
that will be on the inside of the property during the winter with no
heat in the building.

Here's my question:

If I put a stop-and-waste ball valve in the vertical water supply
line a few inches above the floor, then put the water meter back on,
keep the water turned off at the street, and open the drain port on
the valve and leave the valve open, will that keep the supply line
and water meter from freezing and cracking during the winter?

As a backup precaution, I also will either wrap the pipe with a
plugged-in pipe heater line and/or create some other kind of heat
source for that short piece of pipe such as by using an incandescent
lightbulb (maybe inside a small insulated box/space covering the
pipe). Does that plan sound okay? Any other ideas or suggestions that I
should consider?

Thanks.

If one end is open-, is this doeable---- get as much water out of the
open pipe as possible. Then put RV anti freeze into the lines.

Good idea. I'll probably do that too as an additional precaution. It would
be easy to do and the cost is minimal.

bob haller wrote:
sounds like you will have no need for water over the winter.

if thats the case shut off water at curb, remove the valve and
fittings from the incoming water line indoors......

then siphon the remaining above floor water stuck in the line with
aquarium tubing....... suck on it if needed...

leave the meter and everything off till spring.

this way you have no need to heat the line or worry about a possible
freeze up, since there will be no water to freeze.....

I like the idea about the tubing to take the remaining water out of the line
near the basement.

I do want to put in the new shutoff ball valve with a drain port so I'll
already have a way to turn off the water from the inside if needed. I'll be
leaving the new valve open and drain port on the valve open. I assume that
the shutoff valve at the street works okay, but just in case it has a slow
leak or develops any problem, I want to have an inside shutoff valve as a
backup.

On Dec 4, 9:03*am, "TomR" wrote:
bob haller wrote:
sounds like you will have no need for water over the winter.

if thats the case shut off water at curb, remove the valve and
fittings from the incoming water line indoors......

then siphon the remaining above floor water stuck in the line with
aquarium tubing....... suck on it if needed...

leave the meter and everything off till spring.

this way you have no need to heat the line or worry about a possible
freeze up, since there will be no water to freeze.....

I like the idea about the tubing to take the remaining water out of the line
near the basement.

I do want to put in the new shutoff ball valve with a drain port so I'll
already have a way to turn off the water from the inside if needed. *I'll be
leaving the new valve open and drain port on the valve open. *I assume that
the shutoff valve at the street works okay, but just in case it has a slow
leak or develops any problem, I want to have an inside shutoff valve as a
backup.

If I understand the issue, you have capped off the main line from the
street and removed the water meter. I would put a temporary connector
on the pipe coming from the house (where it would attach to the meter)
and hook up an air compressor. Then blow any water out of the
system. This is similar to winterizing a lawn sprinkler system.
I'm not sure it it would work in your situation, but it's an idea to
think about.

Robin

David L. Martel wrote:
Tom,

If I follow you, you have a vacant house that you are renovating.
Recently thieves stole all of the copper piping. You have an
unfinished basement and have turned off the water at the main valve
located in this basement. You plan to use an electric heat source
to supply some heat to your cut off valve and water meter.
I'd not rely on electric solutions. Those wires are copper and the
world is full of thieves. It sounds as if the cutoff valve is a new
install and the water is shut off at the curb so leave the cutoff
valve open . Take the water meter home and stick it in a heated space.

I have the water meter off now, but my plan is to put it back on. I think
it has an external reading setup so they can read it from the outside. I'll
have to double-check that and how it works. I don't want them to think I
have no water service (even if I have it shut off at the curb) so that I
don't have to go through anything to get the water service back on.

On Tue, 4 Dec 2012 08:54:17 -0500, "David L. Martel"
wrote:

Oren,

I presume that the service line is below the freeze depth and will not
freeze. The water is cut off at the curb. The OP seems concerned about his
connector to the service line, his basement cut off valve and his basement
water meter, if I've understood him correctly.
How do you think that water from the service line will get to the street?

Dave M.


I stand corrected. I incorrectly expected the meter to be at the
street and not in the basement. Reading the OP again I understand the
meter is inside and you are correct.

Further, on my street meter has the shut off valve before the meter.
In that case the meter can be removed, same as an inside meter.

Thanks.

That looks like a gate valve on that line.

If it were me, I would use a wet/dry vaccuum cleaner and a length of vinyl tubing to suck the water out of that line to the depth of the frost line. If you don't have electricity in that house, you can always just use lung power and spit the water out into a bucket.

Then pour in some plumbing antifreeze to prevent any remaining water in the pipe from freezing.

As long as you remove the water above the frost line, you should be good. the water in any piping below the frost line won't freeze anyhow.

"TomR" wrote in message
...
MLD wrote:
"TomR" wrote in message
...
I own a property (a house) that is vacant and mostly gutted at this
point, and it is essentially a shell on the upper floors. But, just
recently, thieves broke into the ground-level basement and stole all
of the copper plumbing.

The house has hot water cast iron radiator heat, and what they took
was all of the large copper heating pipes and the regular copper
water pipes from the basement, and the small amount of 1/2-inch
copper water pipe that was left on the empty first floor. All of
the remaining pipes are the old threaded iron pipes and they left
them as-is. At this point, since winter is approaching, my plan is to
just drain
all of the water from all lines, the hot water heater and boiler,
the cast iron radiators etc., and "winterize" the property so that
nothing breaks during sub-freezing temperatures. The house does
have electricity, but the water will be completely shut off at the
curb. My question is about the small piece of pipe for the main water
supply line that will be left and that comes into the basement from
the outside through the basement floor. Here are two photos of what
is there now: http://i46.tinypic.com/207ugr7.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/2qkm2bp.jpg

The thieves shut off the main water valve, disconnected the copper
from the water meter, and took all of the copper from that point
forward. The main water valve is old and doesn't completely shut
off, so a lot of water came in, but it's an unfinished basement with
a floor drain so not much got water damaged.

After the theft, I took off the water meter and capped the main
water line for now. My plan is to shut off the main water valve at
the street, install a new 3/4-inch shut-off ball valve with a
stop-and-waste port, and put the water meter back on.



My concern is about the small amount of pipe and the water meter
that will be on the inside of the property during the winter with no
heat in the building.

Here's my question:

If I put a stop-and-waste ball valve in the vertical water supply
line a few inches above the floor, then put the water meter back on,
keep the water turned off at the street, and open the drain port on
the valve and leave the valve open, will that keep the supply line
and water meter from freezing and cracking during the winter?

As a backup precaution, I also will either wrap the pipe with a
plugged-in pipe heater line and/or create some other kind of heat
source for that short piece of pipe such as by using an incandescent
lightbulb (maybe inside a small insulated box/space covering the
pipe). Does that plan sound okay? Any other ideas or suggestions that I
should consider?

Thanks.

If one end is open-, is this doeable---- get as much water out of the
open pipe as possible. Then put RV anti freeze into the lines.

Good idea. I'll probably do that too as an additional precaution. It
would be easy to do and the cost is minimal.
As a follow up to my comment about using RV Anti freeze. My house is vacant
for the month of Feb each year as I head for sunny Florida. I shut the ball
valve at the water entry point, open lower level faucets and drain as much
water as I can. Also flush all toilets.
At this point I put about a quart of RV anti freeze in all the
drains/traps--sinks, toilet tank and bowl, bath tub, shower, dish washer,
washing machine etc. Maybe this is over kill but some of the lines are
buried either within the walls or under a cement floor and it isn't worth
taking any chances. Payoff is that I've never has a problem.
MLD

My friend Ed, his adult son was out of town, and the power co turned off the
electric. Deep freeze weather, no less. Burners on the stove barely took the
chill off. We did the drain, pink stuff, etc, routine. Close the water main
coming in, open all the faucets including the cellar laundry sink. The only
pipe damaged, was the water lead to the toilet. He'd closed the shut off
valve, and some water remained in the vertical line.

The neighbors would not let him run a cord for the furnace. I suggested a
generator, but he thought that was too much work.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"MLD" wrote in message ...

As a follow up to my comment about using RV Anti freeze. My house is vacant
for the month of Feb each year as I head for sunny Florida. I shut the ball
valve at the water entry point, open lower level faucets and drain as much
water as I can. Also flush all toilets.

At this point I put about a quart of RV anti freeze in all the
drains/traps--sinks, toilet tank and bowl, bath tub, shower, dish washer,
washing machine etc. Maybe this is over kill but some of the lines are
buried either within the walls or under a cement floor and it isn't worth
taking any chances. Payoff is that I've never has a problem.
MLD

Stormin Mormon wrote:


The neighbors would not let him run a cord for the furnace.

What a bunch of tightarses...


--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://www.dionic.net/tim/

"She got her looks from her father. He's a plastic surgeon."

You got that right!

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
Stormin Mormon wrote:


The neighbors would not let him run a cord for the furnace.

What a bunch of tightarses...


--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://www.dionic.net/tim/

"She got her looks from her father. He's a plastic surgeon."