I own a property (a house) that is vacant and mostly gutted at this point,
and it is essentially a shell on the upper floors. But, just recently,
thieves broke into the ground-level basement and stole all of the copper
plumbing.

The house has hot water cast iron radiator heat, and what they took was all
of the large copper heating pipes and the regular copper water pipes from
the basement, and the small amount of 1/2-inch copper water pipe that was
left on the empty first floor. All of the remaining pipes are the old
threaded iron pipes and they left them as-is.

At this point, since winter is approaching, my plan is to just drain all of
the water from all lines, the hot water heater and boiler, the cast iron
radiators etc., and "winterize" the property so that nothing breaks during
sub-freezing temperatures. The house does have electricity, but the water
will be completely shut off at the curb.

My question is about the small piece of pipe for the main water supply line
that will be left and that comes into the basement from the outside through
the basement floor. Here are two photos of what is there now:

http://i46.tinypic.com/207ugr7.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/2qkm2bp.jpg

The thieves shut off the main water valve, disconnected the copper from the
water meter, and took all of the copper from that point forward. The main
water valve is old and doesn't completely shut off, so a lot of water came
in, but it's an unfinished basement with a floor drain so not much got water
damaged.



After the theft, I took off the water meter and capped the main water line
for now. My plan is to shut off the main water valve at the street, install
a new 3/4-inch shut-off ball valve with a stop-and-waste port, and put the
water meter back on.



My concern is about the small amount of pipe and the water meter that will
be on the inside of the property during the winter with no heat in the
building.



Here's my question:



If I put a stop-and-waste ball valve in the vertical water supply line a few
inches above the floor, then put the water meter back on, keep the water
turned off at the street, and open the drain port on the valve and leave the
valve open, will that keep the supply line and water meter from freezing and
cracking during the winter?



As a backup precaution, I also will either wrap the pipe with a plugged-in
pipe heater line and/or create some other kind of heat source for that short
piece of pipe such as by using an incandescent lightbulb (maybe inside a
small insulated box/space covering the pipe).



Does that plan sound okay? Any other ideas or suggestions that I should
consider?



Thanks.

TomR wrote:


If I put a stop-and-waste ball valve in the vertical water supply line a
few inches above the floor, then put the water meter back on, keep the
water turned off at the street, and open the drain port on the valve and
leave the valve open, will that keep the supply line and water meter from
freezing and cracking during the winter?


What's the incoming pipe made of, the bit coming out of the floor?

Reason - lead is the most sensitive for freezing damage. Copper and iron
would generally be strong enough to cope with a bit of ice if the tap is
open and the street side is shut off. Plastic usually has enough "give" to
cope.


As a backup precaution, I also will either wrap the pipe with a plugged-in
pipe heater line and/or create some other kind of heat source for that
short piece of pipe such as by using an incandescent lightbulb (maybe
inside a small insulated box/space covering the pipe).


You can get heat trace tape that's made exactly for this job that you wrap
around the pipe and then lag with some insulation. Very low power, bit like
soil heating cable.

Here the English version in 230V, you should be able to get something
similar:

http://www.tlc-
direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Cable_Accessories_Index/Heat_Tape/index.html

(watch the wrap)


Does that plan sound okay? Any other ideas or suggestions that I should
consider?

The lamp idea might work, but there's a real risk the lamp will blow leaving
you back at square 1.

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://www.dionic.net/tim/

"History will be kind to me for I intend to write it."

Tim Watts wrote:
TomR wrote:


If I put a stop-and-waste ball valve in the vertical water supply
line a few inches above the floor, then put the water meter back on,
keep the water turned off at the street, and open the drain port on
the valve and leave the valve open, will that keep the supply line
and water meter from freezing and cracking during the winter?


What's the incoming pipe made of, the bit coming out of the floor?

Thanks. The incoming water supply line is 3/4-inch copper.

You can get heat trace tape that's made exactly for this job that you
wrap around the pipe and then lag with some insulation. Very low
power, bit like soil heating cable.

That's the term that I couldn't remember -- heat tape or heat trace tape.

I think I'll probably be doing that as a minimum, and maybe the light bulb
idea in addition.

I'd have a look at Frostex heat tape. Self regulating, low wattage.

http://www.deanbennett.com/wintergar...ape-prices.htm

My condolence on the loss of your copper. Hope the thieves try to steal a
transformer, some day, and die a terrible death.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"TomR" wrote in message
...

You can get heat trace tape that's made exactly for this job that you
wrap around the pipe and then lag with some insulation. Very low
power, bit like soil heating cable.

That's the term that I couldn't remember -- heat tape or heat trace tape.

I think I'll probably be doing that as a minimum, and maybe the light bulb
idea in addition.

On Dec 3, 6:05*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
I'd have a look at Frostex heat tape. Self regulating, low wattage.

* * *http://www.deanbennett.com/wintergar...ape-prices.htm

My condolence on the loss of your copper. Hope the thieves try to steal a
transformer, some day, and die a terrible death.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"TomR" wrote in message

...

You can get heat trace tape that's made exactly for this job that you
wrap around the pipe and then lag with some insulation. Very low
power, bit like soil heating cable.

That's the term that I couldn't remember -- heat tape or heat trace tape.

I think I'll probably be doing that as a minimum, and maybe the light bulb
idea in addition.

Another factor not mentioned is where it's located.
Around here, NJ, in a basement it would not get cold
enough to freeze a pipe like that unless you left the
basement windows open or it was somehow otherwise
exposed to the outside. And putting a couple old
coats over that pipe would help a lot too. The ground
temp that deep is around 50F all year long. If it was
here, that's all I'd do.

The one time I had a pipe freeze in a cellar, it was about 0F temp, or maybe
plus a few degrees. The wind was blowing, and the pipe that froze was next
to a window that didn't shut properly.

I'm guessing you are right, that a properly closed cellar should stay above
freezing.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

wrote in message
...

Another factor not mentioned is where it's located.
Around here, NJ, in a basement it would not get cold
enough to freeze a pipe like that unless you left the
basement windows open or it was somehow otherwise
exposed to the outside. And putting a couple old
coats over that pipe would help a lot too. The ground
temp that deep is around 50F all year long. If it was
here, that's all I'd do.

wrote:

Another factor not mentioned is where it's located.
Around here, NJ, in a basement it would not get cold
enough to freeze a pipe like that unless you left the
basement windows open or it was somehow otherwise
exposed to the outside. And putting a couple old
coats over that pipe would help a lot too. The ground
temp that deep is around 50F all year long. If it was
here, that's all I'd do.

Very interesting. I had not thought about that. The property is in
Southern New Jersey, in the Camden - Cherry Hill area. The basement floor
is about 5 feet below the ground level outside. So, that makes sense -- the
water supply line coming in is already below the frost line. If it wasn't,
it would freeze during the winter. I could definitely build a box around
the pipe that seals it off from the basement but is open to the front
exterior wall and the floor, and then cover and/or insulate the box. The
ambient heat from the wall and floor (since they are below the frost line)
should be more than enough to keep the pipe from freezing.

And, being just a tad neurotic, I'll probably still do the heat tape idea
"just in case", even though it probably isn't necessary.

Again, I completely forgot about the outside ground temp at that depth.
Thanks.

On Dec 4, 10:52*am, "TomR" wrote:
wrote:

Another factor not mentioned is where it's located.
Around here, NJ, in a basement it would not get cold
enough to freeze a pipe like that unless you left the
basement windows open or it was somehow otherwise
exposed to the outside. * And putting a couple old
coats over that pipe would help a lot too. * The ground
temp that deep is around 50F all year long. *If it was
here, that's all I'd do.

Very interesting. *I had not thought about that. *The property is in
Southern New Jersey, in the Camden - Cherry Hill area. *The basement floor
is about 5 feet below the ground level outside. *So, that makes sense -- the
water supply line coming in is already below the frost line. *If it wasn't,
it would freeze during the winter. *I could definitely build a box around
the pipe that seals it off from the basement but is open to the front
exterior wall and the floor, and then cover and/or insulate the box. *The
ambient heat from the wall and floor (since they are below the frost line)
should be more than enough to keep the pipe from freezing.

And, being just a tad neurotic, I'll probably still do the heat tape idea
"just in case", even though it probably isn't necessary.

Again, I completely forgot about the outside ground temp at that depth.
Thanks.

All I can tell you is that when I was a kid living in NJ, our
house had a well with a driven casing. Back then, those
wells were typically driven so the well head was below
the frost line, like 4 ft and then covered up. My dad thought
it was a good idea to keep access, so he built a cement
block compartment with a steel cover for it. The thing was
about 4 x 4 and 4 feet deep. It froze once, when it was
close to zero out. After that, he threw a few old coats over
the well head/pipe at the bottom and it never froze again
in 25 years.

If that's what it takes to freeze something like that which is
only 4 feet or so deep, I think it's impossible to freeze
something at basement floor level in NJ. Unless you
have windows open or other issues that allow a lot of
outside cold air in. Another factor on your side is that
pipe is buried in ground that is 50F and that heat is
being conducted into it.