In this load center are the ground bar and neutral bar interchangeable?

I have the model in the picture, he

http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/...8at94903AM.png

On Nov 18, 9:54*am, noname wrote:
In this load center are the ground bar and neutral bar interchangeable?

I have the model in the picture, he

http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/...Shot2012-11-18...

I was told that used as a main panel the ground and neutrals must be
tied together so they are the same, and grounds and neutrals can go
wherever convenient. this info from a middle states inspector.

if used as a sub panel the bonding screw must be removed and grounds
and neutrals MUST be on seperate bars

On 11/18/2012 8:54 AM, noname wrote:
In this load center are the ground bar and neutral bar interchangeable?

I have the model in the picture, he

http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/...8at94903AM.png


You probably have a screw that bonds the ground bar to the box and if
you don't know, the ground and neutral are tied together at the main
breaker panel only. The sub panels do not have the ground and neutral
tied together. The panel in the picture can have the metal buss at the
bottom tying the ground and neutral bars together removed so it can be
used as a sub panel. ^_^

http://www.esgroundingsolutions.com/...the-main-panel

http://tinyurl.com/bewzaz6

TDD

On 11/18/2012 10:28 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 06:54:30 -0800 (PST), noname
wrote:

In this load center are the ground bar and neutral bar interchangeable?

I have the model in the picture, he

http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/...8at94903AM.png

No,
Even in the main panel (Service disconnect enclosure) you should hook
the white wires to the isolated neutral bus(s) and hook the grounds to
the grounding buses.
If you ever decided to make this a sub, all you would have to do is
remove the bonding screw/clip and add a 4 wire feeder but most
importantly, it is a NEC violation to use the grounding bus for
neutral wires (250.6) because you are using the enclosure as a circuit
current path.

"250.6 Objectionable Current.
(A) Arrangement to Prevent Objectionable Current. The grounding of
electrical systems, circuit conductors, surge arresters,
surge-protective devices, and conductive normally non€“current-carrying
metal parts of equipment shall be installed and arranged in a manner
that will prevent objectionable current."


You can get a ground bar kit for that panel and keep both neutral bars
but I have seen the bottom buss removed in order to use the left side as
a ground. What I've done in the past is to install can mounted ground
bars on either side connected together with a #4 bare copper
which will keep the wiring a lot neater but everything depends on the
local inspectors. Around here, the city engineering department has their
own stricter requirements than the NEC but the county is much less
strict in their interpretation. Oh yea, what's seen in my area is a #4
bare copper attached to the ground bar going to the ground rod and cold
water pipe then a bonding screw at the main breaker panel tying the
neutral bar/s to the can or a specially made jumper supplied by the
panel manufacturer. The inspector may want a piece of #4 bare copper run
to the ground bar from the neutral bar in addition to the factory
supplied bonding method. It really depends on the local inspectors. O_o

TDD

So since this is the only and main panel, I think the answer is the neutral bar and the ground bar are one and the same, yes?

On Sunday, November 18, 2012 12:22:39 PM UTC-5, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 11/18/2012 10:28 AM, wrote:

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 06:54:30 -0800 (PST), noname

wrote:



In this load center are the ground bar and neutral bar interchangeable?



I have the model in the picture, he



http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/...8at94903AM.png



No,

Even in the main panel (Service disconnect enclosure) you should hook

the white wires to the isolated neutral bus(s) and hook the grounds to

the grounding buses.

If you ever decided to make this a sub, all you would have to do is

remove the bonding screw/clip and add a 4 wire feeder but most

importantly, it is a NEC violation to use the grounding bus for

neutral wires (250.6) because you are using the enclosure as a circuit

current path.



"250.6 Objectionable Current.

(A) Arrangement to Prevent Objectionable Current. The grounding of

electrical systems, circuit conductors, surge arresters,

surge-protective devices, and conductive normally non–current-carrying

metal parts of equipment shall be installed and arranged in a manner

that will prevent objectionable current."





You can get a ground bar kit for that panel and keep both neutral bars

but I have seen the bottom buss removed in order to use the left side as

a ground. What I've done in the past is to install can mounted ground

bars on either side connected together with a #4 bare copper

which will keep the wiring a lot neater but everything depends on the

local inspectors. Around here, the city engineering department has their

own stricter requirements than the NEC but the county is much less

strict in their interpretation. Oh yea, what's seen in my area is a #4

bare copper attached to the ground bar going to the ground rod and cold

water pipe then a bonding screw at the main breaker panel tying the

neutral bar/s to the can or a specially made jumper supplied by the

panel manufacturer. The inspector may want a piece of #4 bare copper run

to the ground bar from the neutral bar in addition to the factory

supplied bonding method. It really depends on the local inspectors. O_o



TDD

On Nov 18, 3:47*pm, noname wrote:
So since this is the only and main panel, I think the answer is the neutral bar and the ground bar are one and the same, yes?



On Sunday, November 18, 2012 12:22:39 PM UTC-5, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 11/18/2012 10:28 AM, wrote:

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 06:54:30 -0800 (PST), noname

wrote:

In this load center are the ground bar and neutral bar interchangeable?

I have the model in the picture, he

http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/...Shot2012-11-18....

No,

Even in the main panel (Service disconnect enclosure) you should hook

the white wires to the isolated neutral bus(s) and hook the grounds to

the grounding buses.

If you ever decided to make this a sub, all you would have to do is

remove the bonding screw/clip and add a 4 wire feeder but most

importantly, it is a NEC violation to use the grounding bus for

neutral wires (250.6) because you are using the enclosure as a circuit

current path.

"250.6 Objectionable Current.

(A) Arrangement to Prevent Objectionable Current. The grounding of

electrical systems, circuit conductors, surge arresters,

surge-protective devices, and conductive normally non–current-carrying

metal parts of equipment shall be installed and arranged in a manner

that will prevent objectionable current."

You can get a ground bar kit for that panel and keep both neutral bars

but I have seen the bottom buss removed in order to use the left side as

a ground. What I've done in the past is to install can mounted ground

bars on either side connected together with a #4 bare copper

which will keep the wiring a lot neater but everything depends on the

local inspectors. Around here, the city engineering department has their

own stricter requirements than the NEC but the county is much less

strict in their interpretation. Oh yea, what's seen in my area is a #4

bare copper attached to the ground bar going to the ground rod and cold

water pipe then a bonding screw at the main breaker panel tying the

neutral bar/s to the can or a specially made jumper supplied by the

panel manufacturer. The inspector may want a piece of #4 bare copper run

to the ground bar from the neutral bar in addition to the factory

supplied bonding method. It really depends on the local inspectors. O_o

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think the answer was the neutral wires go to the neutral bus.
The ground wires go to the ground bus. The two buses
are connected together right there, at the panel. That's different
than mixing grounds and neutrals any which way in
the panel.....

On 11/18/2012 2:47 PM, noname wrote:
So since this is the only and main panel, I think the answer is the neutral bar and the ground bar are one and the same, yes?


It may depend on your local inspectors but I think I had taken too many
of my prescription pain meds when I wrote that the buss bar at the
bottom could be removed so the left neutral bar could be used for a
ground but it really depends on the inspector. In my area, the city
electrical inspectors won't allow grounds to be put on the neutral bar
and a ground bar attached directly to the metal breaker box is required.
As the main breaker panel, the neutral must be bonded to the ground,
usually with one or two long screws which go through the neutral bar
insulated standoffs and tap into the metal can of the breaker box. Some
inspectors may want an additional #4 copper jumper from the neutral bar
to the ground bar. If you have conduit coming into the panel, inspectors
may also require a metal conduit grounding bushing which has a lug on
the bushing which must be tied to the ground bar. In rural areas of my
state where there is no electrical inspection, the power company will
refuse to hookup an obvious cluster coitus but some of the things I've
seen electrical wise in rural areas are hair raising(no pun). ^_^

TDD

On 11/18/2012 2:47 PM, noname wrote:
So since this is the only and main panel, I think the answer is the
neutral bar and the ground bar are one and the same, yes?

....

No.

The ground is still the ground and the neutral is still the neutral,
only that the neutral buss is bonded to the ground buss in the main panel.

That is mechanically different than treating them as interchangeable
(even if tho are electrically bonded).

--

I saw a panel, years ago. Each Romex, the white and ground went to the same
bar. And, each romex's white and ground went under the same screw. I didn't
like the looks of that, figured if one screw came loose, the circuit would
lose ground and neutral, both, at the same time.

It was many years ago. Can't remember which of so many job sites.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

wrote in message
...

I think the answer was the neutral wires go to the neutral bus.
The ground wires go to the ground bus. The two buses
are connected together right there, at the panel. That's different
than mixing grounds and neutrals any which way in
the panel.....

On Nov 18, 9:03*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
I saw a panel, years ago. Each Romex, the white and ground went to the same
bar. And, each romex's white and ground went under the same screw. I didn't
like the looks of that, figured if one screw came loose, the circuit would
lose ground and neutral, both, at the same time.

It was many years ago. Can't remember which of so many job sites.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

wrote in message

...

I think the answer was the neutral wires go to the neutral bus.
The ground wires go to the ground bus. *The two buses
are connected together right there, at the panel. *That's different
than mixing grounds and neutrals any which way in
the panel.....

you never want to put more than one screw under each bar screw, thats
illegal for some excellent reasons

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 19:39:54 -0800 (PST), bob haller
wrote:

On Nov 18, 9:03*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
I saw a panel, years ago. Each Romex, the white and ground went to the same
bar. And, each romex's white and ground went under the same screw. I didn't
like the looks of that, figured if one screw came loose, the circuit would
lose ground and neutral, both, at the same time.

It was many years ago. Can't remember which of so many job sites.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

wrote in message

...

I think the answer was the neutral wires go to the neutral bus.
The ground wires go to the ground bus. *The two buses
are connected together right there, at the panel. *That's different
than mixing grounds and neutrals any which way in
the panel.....

you never want to put more than one screw under each bar screw, thats
illegal for some excellent reasons

The terms of the UL listing are printed on the panel Label. These
terms tell how many and what function of each screw terminal on the
bars may carry. Been this way for years.
Many stated "one neutral per terminal or two grounding conductors per
terminal" or similar language. The panel UL listing terms apply under
"in accordance with the Listing" sections of the Code.
--
Mr.E

On 11/18/2012 2:47 PM, noname wrote:
So since this is the only and main panel, I think the answer is the neutral bar and the ground bar are one and the same, yes?


As a service panel it needs to have the neutral bar bonded to the
enclosure, is usually done with what looks like a mounting screw that is
usually green. It should come with the panel and you have to install it.

Looks like the bars are connected across the bottom. Then they are both
neutral bars, but with the N-G bonding screw they can both be used for
ground wires.

The panel has room for 20 full size breakers. Each bar has 20 screws. If
you have all 20 full size breakers you can land a neutral and a ground
wire for each breaker. If the panel can take half-sized breakers in some
positions you may run out of screws. (The label will tell you which
positions, if any, you can install half sized breakers.) You may be able
to double up screws for ground wires - read the label. (UL and the NEC
do not allow doubling up neutral wires.)

My Ouija board is not working today, but my guess is that the panel
manufacturer intended that you can attach neutrals and grounds on the
same side as the breaker.

If you add a ground bar (part number identified on the label) it will
attach to the enclosure and, as gfretwell wrote, only ground wires can
be connected to it.

Always in the service the neutrals and grounds are bonded together with bonding screw inspectors want neutrals on one side grounds on the other it would not mater because the bonding screw bonds all together this is just at service at sub panels there seperated

On Thu, 20 Oct 2016 20:59:43 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Always in the service the neutrals and grounds are bonded together with bonding screw inspectors want neutrals on one side grounds on the other it would not mater because the bonding screw bonds all together this is just at service at sub panels there seperated

It matters because you do not want circuit current flowing through
that screw. (250.6)
You put neutrals on the neutral bus where the service neutral lands
and you can put the grounds there or on the grounding bus(es).
Generally it is best to use the grounding bus and save any unused
neutral bus holes for future expansion.

Just get on the RIGHT BUS and you won't end up
the wrong part of town - the current, that is!

thekma wrote in message
...
Just get on the RIGHT BUS and you won't end up
the wrong part of town - the current, that is!

Make sure you dont create a short circuit. That's the bus you're
usually on!