An overview story. But buried in the story is this:

"But progress is being made. CenterPoint Energy, a regional utility company
based in Texas, is in the final stages of constructing a network of smart
meters across the city and suburbs of Houston. By 2013, 2 million smart
meters will track energy use in Texans' homes, and allow CenterPoint to turn
off air conditioning units during times of high demand for instance,
although CenterPoint admits it will need customer consent for this."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...lights-on.html

Wonder: How can Centerpoint distinguish between an a/c and a 240v welding
machine? Or would they just cut both of them off?

On 8/8/2012 5:41 AM, HeyBub wrote:
An overview story. But buried in the story is this:

"But progress is being made. CenterPoint Energy, a regional utility company
based in Texas, is in the final stages of constructing a network of smart
meters across the city and suburbs of Houston. By 2013, 2 million smart
meters will track energy use in Texans' homes, and allow CenterPoint to turn
off air conditioning units during times of high demand for instance,
although CenterPoint admits it will need customer consent for this."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...lights-on.html

Wonder: How can Centerpoint distinguish between an a/c and a 240v welding
machine? Or would they just cut both of them off?

It's called a SaverSwitch by my utility company. They come out and add
it to the a/c unit, in exchange for giving the customer a 15% discount
on their monthly electric bill. The utility remotely controls it -
during peak load times (which are only an occasional thing hereabouts)
they turn off the a/c's compressor every twenty minutes or so, leaving
the fan running to circulate air in the house.

They claim that most people will typically notice little or no
difference, comfort-wise, when this is done. However, my sister has a
4-level home and when she was on the program, her upper levels simply
never had a chance to cool down sufficiently, so she had them remove
the switch.

"HeyBub" wrote in message
...
An overview story. But buried in the story is this:

"But progress is being made. CenterPoint Energy, a regional utility
company based in Texas, is in the final stages of constructing a network
of smart meters across the city and suburbs of Houston. By 2013, 2 million
smart meters will track energy use in Texans' homes, and allow CenterPoint
to turn off air conditioning units during times of high demand for
instance, although CenterPoint admits it will need customer consent for
this."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...lights-on.html

Wonder: How can Centerpoint distinguish between an a/c and a 240v welding
machine? Or would they just cut both of them off?

The smart meter can't turn off the A/C by itself. It receives the signal
from the utility and then sends a separate signal to the loads, such as the
A/C, that the home owner has agreed (and gets a "reward" from the utility)
to turn off. The A/C controller has to be "smart" too so as to receive the
signal from the meter. Many large appliances are being built now with the
"smart" capability included.

Tomsic

On Wednesday, August 8, 2012 3:41:55 AM UTC-7, HeyBub wrote:
An overview story. But buried in the story is this:



"But progress is being made. CenterPoint Energy, a regional utility company

based in Texas, is in the final stages of constructing a network of smart

meters across the city and suburbs of Houston. By 2013, 2 million smart

meters will track energy use in Texans' homes, and allow CenterPoint to turn

off air conditioning units during times of high demand for instance,

although CenterPoint admits it will need customer consent for this."



http://www.newscientist.com/article/...lights-on.html



Wonder: How can Centerpoint distinguish between an a/c and a 240v welding

machine? Or would they just cut both of them off?

It’s another reason for the HVAC technicians to charge more money.
Now when you go to do repairs you have to figure out if the unit
is shutting down due to one of the fan motor thermal cut-offs,
low pressure or the SaverSwitch.

responding to
http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...ge-708848-.htm
DA wrote:
HeyBub wrote:


http://www.newscientist.com/article/...lights-on.html

Wonder: How can Centerpoint distinguish between an a/c and a 240v
welding
machine? Or would they just cut both of them off?

I think the journalist writing that article had mixed two different things
together. A meter, smart or otherwise, is in series with the rest of the
loads in the house - never seen one installed specifically for an A/C
condenser unit. So, if it did have a large contactor in it (and it
doesn't), it would cut all the loads in the house, not just the outside
A/C unit.

The thing that does cut the A/C condenser unit off is called DCU (Digital
Cycling Unit). It gets installed next to and in series with the outside
A/C unit's own contactor and, when activated by the power company, ensures
that the A/C condenser does not get power for 15 min out of every 30.
Usually during peak demand hours. So, no worries about your welder unless
it's hooked up in parallel with the outside A/C unit and you're welding on
a hot weekday afternoon in the summer.

DCU is a preventive measure, BTW. They are too slow to react to save the
grid from a blackout that's already on the way. Also, I would not call
them a part of a "smart grid" either - they are more like a part of the
A/C appliance, sort of like crutches that save the power company from
actually upgrading their grid equipment. Says Peco about their Smart A/C
Saver DCUs: "Keep in mind that the primary purpose of the program is to
balance the demand for electricity to minimize the potential for power
outages and reduce the need for costly infrastructure additions."

Cheers!

-------------------------------------
/\_/\
((@v@)) NIGHT
()::) OWL
VV-VV

On 8/8/2012 9:17 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 8 Aug 2012 05:41:55 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

An overview story. But buried in the story is this:

"But progress is being made. CenterPoint Energy, a regional utility company
based in Texas, is in the final stages of constructing a network of smart
meters across the city and suburbs of Houston. By 2013, 2 million smart
meters will track energy use in Texans' homes, and allow CenterPoint to turn
off air conditioning units during times of high demand for instance,
although CenterPoint admits it will need customer consent for this."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...lights-on.html

Wonder: How can Centerpoint distinguish between an a/c and a 240v welding
machine? Or would they just cut both of them off?


They have to add a switching device to the circuit going to your A/C.
(water heater or whatever)


And our utility started doing power line signalling like that a long
time ago when they were promoting onsite thermal storage. You got a
really cheap rate for power and you wired a similar module to what you
get now into the control circuit. They could take the heating elements
offline anytime they needed.

On Aug 8, 1:36*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 8 Aug 2012 07:35:18 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 8, 2012 3:41:55 AM UTC-7, HeyBub wrote:

It’s another reason for the HVAC technicians to charge more money.
Now when you go to do repairs you have to figure out if the unit
is shutting down due to one of the fan motor thermal cut-offs,
low pressure or the SaverSwitch.

I had this system in my condo in Treasure Island. There was an LED in
the controller that went from green to red when the utility was
shutting down the power.

The only thing that is different is the new meter gets the signal; and
WiFi's it to the local controller.

I have it here in NJ too with no smart meter. IT's a radio
controlled switch at the compressor unit. Have had it
for 20 years now. They used to give us a flat amount,
like $25 a year for having it. Now they switched to giving
out $2 every time they activate it. They rarely activate it,
so I'm not getting much anymore.

"HeyBub" wrote in message
...
An overview story. But buried in the story is this:

"But progress is being made. CenterPoint Energy, a regional utility
company based in Texas, is in the final stages of constructing a network
of smart meters across the city and suburbs of Houston. By 2013, 2 million
smart meters will track energy use in Texans' homes, and allow CenterPoint
to turn off air conditioning units during times of high demand for
instance, although CenterPoint admits it will need customer consent for
this."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...lights-on.html

Wonder: How can Centerpoint distinguish between an a/c and a 240v welding
machine? Or would they just cut both of them off?

The home is divided into essential and non-essential circuits.

On Wednesday, August 8, 2012 10:36:38 AM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:
On Wed, 8 Aug 2012 07:35:18 -0700 (PDT),

wrote:



On Wednesday, August 8, 2012 3:41:55 AM UTC-7, HeyBub wrote:





It’s another reason for the HVAC technicians to charge more money.

Now when you go to do repairs you have to figure out if the unit

is shutting down due to one of the fan motor thermal cut-offs,

low pressure or the SaverSwitch.



I had this system in my condo in Treasure Island. There was an LED in

the controller that went from green to red when the utility was

shutting down the power.



The only thing that is different is the new meter gets the signal; and

WiFi's it to the local controller.

Usually by the time anyone in the house realizes that the A/C may not be running it is back on again so they’re not sure if there was a problem with the unit or if it was turned off by the utility.

I guess not many people know that about 8% of males are red green color
blind. Something like that.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

wrote in message
...

I had this system in my condo in Treasure Island. There was an LED in
the controller that went from green to red when the utility was
shutting down the power.

The only thing that is different is the new meter gets the signal; and
WiFi's it to the local controller.

"Hell Toupee" wrote in message

It's called a SaverSwitch by my utility company. They come out and add it
to the a/c unit, in exchange for giving the customer a 15% discount on
their monthly electric bill. The utility remotely controls it - during
peak load times (which are only an occasional thing hereabouts) they turn
off the a/c's compressor every twenty minutes or so, leaving the fan
running to circulate air in the house.

They claim that most people will typically notice little or no difference,
comfort-wise, when this is done. However, my sister has a 4-level home and
when she was on the program, her upper levels simply never had a chance to
cool down sufficiently, so she had them remove the switch.


I can see that system working, based on my own experience with AC. Short
down times are not a big deal. Many people keep the house cooler than it
has to be and a brief time down makes no discernable difference.

Recently, on a pretty hot day, there was a quick power outage. My AC went
off, came back on but not in the "cool" position. It took about an hour
before I finally noticed that it was getting overly warm. If the power
company has shut it down for five of twenty minutes, I never would have
noticed.

In the case of your sister's house, the system is either not sized properly,
not laid out properly, or not installed properly. The technology to have a
well balanced system has been around for decades. Unfortunately, things like
this happen.

On Aug 8, 2:24*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"Hell Toupee" wrote in message

It's called a SaverSwitch by my utility company. They come out and add it
to the a/c unit, in exchange for giving the customer a 15% discount on
their monthly electric bill. The utility remotely controls it - during
peak load times (which are only an occasional thing hereabouts) they turn
off the a/c's compressor every twenty minutes or so, leaving the fan
running to circulate air in the house.

They claim that most people will typically notice little or no difference,
comfort-wise, when this is done. However, my sister has a 4-level home and
when she was on the program, her upper levels simply never had a chance to
cool down sufficiently, so she had them remove the switch.

I can see that system working, based on my own experience with AC. *Short
down times are not a big deal. *Many people keep the house cooler than it
has to be and a brief time down makes no discernable difference.

Recently, on a pretty hot day, there was a quick power outage. *My AC went
off, came back on but not in the "cool" position. *It took about an hour
before I finally noticed that it was getting overly warm. *If the power
company has shut it down for five of twenty minutes, I never would have
noticed.

In the case of your sister's house, the system is either not sized properly,
not laid out properly, or not installed properly. *The technology to have a
well balanced system has been around for decades. Unfortunately, things like
this happen.

I don;t know about that. An AC system is supposed to
be sized so that it runs most of the time on the hottest
days. If the power company then turns it off so it can't
run as much as it needs to, it seems perfectly possible
that some people could wind up with homes that are
too hot.

Another way of looking at it is this. The power companies
claim that it makes no difference in the temp in your
house. If that's the case, what good does it do the
power company? All the AC units out there are already
either randomly cycling because they can maintain the
set temp or else just running all the time. If they are
randomly cycling, then how do you reduce the load
to the power company without reducing the cooling?
If the ACs were all coming on and off at exactly the same
time, then by fooling with then, the power company
could even it out. But because they are already random,
I don't see what they are doing having any effect unless
it raises the temp in the house. And if the AC is running
100%, then for sure turning it off for 10 mins is going
to decrease the cooling output.

And if it starts doing that, if you have a multi-story home
with a single system, I would think it could easily effect
the upper levels to an unacceptable level.

On Wed, 8 Aug 2012 11:39:46 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Aug 8, 2:24*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"Hell Toupee" wrote in message

It's called a SaverSwitch by my utility company. They come out and add it
to the a/c unit, in exchange for giving the customer a 15% discount on
their monthly electric bill. The utility remotely controls it - during
peak load times (which are only an occasional thing hereabouts) they turn
off the a/c's compressor every twenty minutes or so, leaving the fan
running to circulate air in the house.

They claim that most people will typically notice little or no difference,
comfort-wise, when this is done. However, my sister has a 4-level home and
when she was on the program, her upper levels simply never had a chance to
cool down sufficiently, so she had them remove the switch.

I can see that system working, based on my own experience with AC. *Short
down times are not a big deal. *Many people keep the house cooler than it
has to be and a brief time down makes no discernable difference.

Recently, on a pretty hot day, there was a quick power outage. *My AC went
off, came back on but not in the "cool" position. *It took about an hour
before I finally noticed that it was getting overly warm. *If the power
company has shut it down for five of twenty minutes, I never would have
noticed.

In the case of your sister's house, the system is either not sized properly,
not laid out properly, or not installed properly. *The technology to have a
well balanced system has been around for decades. Unfortunately, things like
this happen.

I don;t know about that. An AC system is supposed to
be sized so that it runs most of the time on the hottest
days. If the power company then turns it off so it can't
run as much as it needs to, it seems perfectly possible
that some people could wind up with homes that are
too hot.

Another way of looking at it is this. The power companies
claim that it makes no difference in the temp in your
house. If that's the case, what good does it do the
power company? All the AC units out there are already
either randomly cycling because they can maintain the
set temp or else just running all the time. If they are
randomly cycling, then how do you reduce the load
to the power company without reducing the cooling?
If the ACs were all coming on and off at exactly the same
time, then by fooling with then, the power company
could even it out. But because they are already random,
I don't see what they are doing having any effect unless
it raises the temp in the house. And if the AC is running
100%, then for sure turning it off for 10 mins is going
to decrease the cooling output.

Absolutely right. The only way to save any energy is to decrease the average
delta-T (make it warmer in the house). Otherwise, you're just shifting *when*
the compressor is running, not how much. I don't see how shifting it by ten
minutes helps either. It'll just draw more power (than it otherwise would
have) later.

And if it starts doing that, if you have a multi-story home
with a single system, I would think it could easily effect
the upper levels to an unacceptable level.

Or any unbalanced system. I have an issue between my bedrooms and family
room. The air handler is above the bedrooms and the family room is 50' away,
with a too small (I think) diameter duct between. The return is also in the
wrong place, I think, but that's a done deal.

Dirty AC use more electric. So, you can often save energy by having the
system professionally cleaned.

Over or under charged refrigerant can use more electric. So, you can save
energy by having a pro come out and check the freon level.

Dirty air filters

inefficient blower design

duct work problems

registers blocked

change recip to scroll compressor

I guess you're incorrect. That's not the only way to save energy. Too bad.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
Absolutely right. The only way to save any energy is to decrease the
average
delta-T (make it warmer in the house).

"HeyBub" wrote in message
...
An overview story. But buried in the story is this:

"But progress is being made. CenterPoint Energy, a regional utility
company based in Texas, is in the final stages of constructing a network
of smart meters across the city and suburbs of Houston. By 2013, 2 million
smart meters will track energy use in Texans' homes, and allow CenterPoint
to turn off air conditioning units during times of high demand for
instance, although CenterPoint admits it will need customer consent for
this."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...lights-on.html

Wonder: How can Centerpoint distinguish between an a/c and a 240v welding
machine? Or would they just cut both of them off?


The A?C is on a separate circuit with the switch box on it, near the
compressor unit
You will not have a socket to plug your welder on that circuit

I have had that on my A/C for years
Works well and gets me a discount too.

wrote in message
Absolutely right. The only way to save any energy is to decrease the
average
delta-T (make it warmer in the house). Otherwise, you're just shifting
*when*
the compressor is running, not how much. I don't see how shifting it by
ten
minutes helps either. It'll just draw more power (than it otherwise would
have) later.


My guess is increasing the delta-T would make many of the ultra cold houses
more in line with what they should be and that is at least part of the
goal. I think the main goals is control at peak times. The power company
will let yhour house get a little warmer during the peak and they don't
care if it runs longer after industry shuts down around 4 and office close
down around five. After that, they have the power available to bring your
house down to 40 degrees if you want.

And if it starts doing that, if you have a multi-story home
with a single system, I would think it could easily effect
the upper levels to an unacceptable level.

Or any unbalanced system. I have an issue between my bedrooms and family
room. The air handler is above the bedrooms and the family room is 50'
away,
with a too small (I think) diameter duct between. The return is also in
the
wrong place, I think, but that's a done deal.


In a perfect world, there would be no imbalanced systems. Seems a shame to
have to run a unit more than really needed to compensate for design flaws.
Changing duct sizes and air handlers now is rather costly though. Even when
a house is built, there are many ways to insure a perfect balance, but they
can be costly. Buyers are reluctant to spend an extra $5000 up front to
save a few hundred a year for life. Granite counter tops are more important
than better insulation or better HVAC systems.

On Aug 9, 8:44*am, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
wrote in message
Absolutely right. *The only way to save any energy is to decrease the
average
delta-T (make it warmer in the house). *Otherwise, you're just shifting
*when*
the compressor is running, not how much. *I don't see how shifting it by
ten
minutes helps either. *It'll just draw more power (than it otherwise would
have) later.

My guess is increasing the delta-T would make many of the ultra cold houses
more in line with *what they should be and that is at least part of the
goal. *I think the main goals is control at peak times. *The power company
will let yhour *house get a little warmer during the peak and they don't
care if it runs longer after industry shuts down around 4 and office close
down around five. *After that, they have the power available to bring your
house down to 40 degrees if you want.

And if it starts doing that, if you have a multi-story home
with a single system, I would think it could easily effect
the upper levels to an unacceptable level.

Or any unbalanced system. *I have an issue between my bedrooms and family
room. *The air handler is above the bedrooms and the family room is 50'
away,
with a too small (I think) diameter duct between. *The return is also in
the
wrong place, I think, but that's a done deal.

In a perfect world, there would be no imbalanced systems. *Seems a shame to
have to run a unit more than really needed to compensate for design flaws..
Changing duct sizes and air handlers now is rather costly though. *Even when
a house is built, there are many ways to insure a perfect balance, but they
can be costly. *Buyers are reluctant to spend an extra $5000 up front to
save a few hundred a year for life. *Granite counter tops are more important
than better insulation or better HVAC systems.

Actually I think the problem is that BUILDERS THINK
that homeowners won't spend some extra money
for a correct HVAC install, so they never get the
chance. Anyone who has had experience with a
half-assed system would highly value having it done
right. And I don't think it would typically cost an
extra $5,000. Just simple things, like putting decent,
large returns on the upper floors would go a long
way. And to do that, it's just a design/layout issue,
allowing space in the floor plan, eg a chase or similar
to run the duct in. Absent a chase, the HVAC guys
show up and are left with only wall cavities.

But even if it did cost $5K, I for one would much
rather that then be uncomfortable for 15 years.

On Thu, 9 Aug 2012 08:44:27 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:


wrote in message
Absolutely right. The only way to save any energy is to decrease the
average
delta-T (make it warmer in the house). Otherwise, you're just shifting
*when*
the compressor is running, not how much. I don't see how shifting it by
ten
minutes helps either. It'll just draw more power (than it otherwise would
have) later.


My guess is increasing the delta-T would make many of the ultra cold houses
^^^^^^^^^^
more in line with what they should be and that is at least part of the
goal. I think the main goals is control at peak times.

I assume you mean *decreasing* delta-T. The problem with this is that the
power company doesn't know what your delta-T is. The only thing they can do
is increase delta-T for everyone, or do it randomly.

The power company
will let yhour house get a little warmer during the peak and they don't
care if it runs longer after industry shuts down around 4 and office close
down around five. After that, they have the power available to bring your
house down to 40 degrees if you want.

Yes, but turning the compressor off for twenty minutes (or whatever) on a
rotating basis won't accomplish this.

And if it starts doing that, if you have a multi-story home
with a single system, I would think it could easily effect
the upper levels to an unacceptable level.

Or any unbalanced system. I have an issue between my bedrooms and family
room. The air handler is above the bedrooms and the family room is 50'
away,
with a too small (I think) diameter duct between. The return is also in
the
wrong place, I think, but that's a done deal.


In a perfect world, there would be no imbalanced systems. Seems a shame to
have to run a unit more than really needed to compensate for design flaws.
Changing duct sizes and air handlers now is rather costly though. Even when
a house is built, there are many ways to insure a perfect balance, but they
can be costly. Buyers are reluctant to spend an extra $5000 up front to
save a few hundred a year for life. Granite counter tops are more important
than better insulation or better HVAC systems.

Buyers are rarely given the choice and it really isn't something they can be
expected to understand. Few would understand even the size of the units.

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 16:50:19 -0400, "
wrote:

On Wed, 8 Aug 2012 11:39:46 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Aug 8, 2:24*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"Hell Toupee" wrote in message

It's called a SaverSwitch by my utility company. They come out and add it
to the a/c unit, in exchange for giving the customer a 15% discount on
their monthly electric bill. The utility remotely controls it - during
peak load times (which are only an occasional thing hereabouts) they turn
off the a/c's compressor every twenty minutes or so, leaving the fan
running to circulate air in the house.

They claim that most people will typically notice little or no difference,
comfort-wise, when this is done. However, my sister has a 4-level home and
when she was on the program, her upper levels simply never had a chance to
cool down sufficiently, so she had them remove the switch.

I can see that system working, based on my own experience with AC. *Short
down times are not a big deal. *Many people keep the house cooler than it
has to be and a brief time down makes no discernable difference.

Recently, on a pretty hot day, there was a quick power outage. *My AC went
off, came back on but not in the "cool" position. *It took about an hour
before I finally noticed that it was getting overly warm. *If the power
company has shut it down for five of twenty minutes, I never would have
noticed.

In the case of your sister's house, the system is either not sized properly,
not laid out properly, or not installed properly. *The technology to have a
well balanced system has been around for decades. Unfortunately, things like
this happen.

I don;t know about that. An AC system is supposed to
be sized so that it runs most of the time on the hottest
days. If the power company then turns it off so it can't
run as much as it needs to, it seems perfectly possible
that some people could wind up with homes that are
too hot.

Another way of looking at it is this. The power companies
claim that it makes no difference in the temp in your
house. If that's the case, what good does it do the
power company? All the AC units out there are already
either randomly cycling because they can maintain the
set temp or else just running all the time. If they are
randomly cycling, then how do you reduce the load
to the power company without reducing the cooling?
If the ACs were all coming on and off at exactly the same
time, then by fooling with then, the power company
could even it out. But because they are already random,
I don't see what they are doing having any effect unless
it raises the temp in the house. And if the AC is running
100%, then for sure turning it off for 10 mins is going
to decrease the cooling output.

Absolutely right. The only way to save any energy is to decrease the average
delta-T (make it warmer in the house). Otherwise, you're just shifting *when*
the compressor is running, not how much. I don't see how shifting it by ten
minutes helps either. It'll just draw more power (than it otherwise would
have) later.

They are trying to reduce PEAK load. Lets say there are 1,000,000
power customers. And lets say they want to reduce the peak load 10%.
If all those users AC units were running then turning off 10% of the
running AC units would get MORE then a 10% reduction in peak load
because the AC while running is probably 50% of the load on each
house. So they only need to turn off perhaps 5% of the AC units at any
one time. If the meters are really "smart" they would be able to tell
if the AC is on or not if by no other way then simply the current draw
at that point in time compared to the average for a typical day in the
season. So they should be able to target running ac units. And since
it's "smart" they should be able to shut down *just the right number*
of them to reduce the peak load to whatever their target is. Going
back to it probably being 5% or less needing to be turned off at any
one time, that means of the 1 million houses, if they cycle thru each
house so no house gets hit twice until all the houses with running ac
have had a turn, it means they need to turn off 5% of a million, or
50,000 AC's. If they want to keep the off time to 10 minutes (1/6 of
an hour), it means that for every hour they want to reduce the peak
they need to deal with 300,000 AC's. Given that they have a million
of them, and on a really hot day most of them will be running at any
point in time, that means they have a 3+ hour time period where they
can be turning off AC units without ever hitting the same house twice.
Rounding up to make this example worse, lets say I'm off by a factor
of two, it still means that at most your AC will be turned off for 10
minutes twice in a 3 hour period and the off time would be 1.5 hours
apart. I doubt many people would ever notice those two-10 minute off
periods 1.5 hours apart. And for those rare people who do notice it,
by the time they notice it more then likely the 10 minutes will be
expired and it will be back on.

I just went thru this on the fly so I could have missed something but
assuming it's a reasonably good armchair estimate, the use of smart
meters to control peak use seems like a very good way to save money
(by not building excess capacity to deal with a couple hours of peak
use) with essentially zero impact on anyone's comfort and convenience.

Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 16:50:19 -0400, "
wrote:

On Wed, 8 Aug 2012 11:39:46 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Aug 8, 2:24 pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"Hell Toupee" wrote in message

It's called a SaverSwitch by my utility company. They come out and add it
to the a/c unit, in exchange for giving the customer a 15% discount on
their monthly electric bill. The utility remotely controls it - during
peak load times (which are only an occasional thing hereabouts) they turn
off the a/c's compressor every twenty minutes or so, leaving the fan
running to circulate air in the house.

They claim that most people will typically notice little or no difference,
comfort-wise, when this is done. However, my sister has a 4-level home and
when she was on the program, her upper levels simply never had a chance to
cool down sufficiently, so she had them remove the switch.

I can see that system working, based on my own experience with AC. Short
down times are not a big deal. Many people keep the house cooler than it
has to be and a brief time down makes no discernable difference.

Recently, on a pretty hot day, there was a quick power outage. My AC went
off, came back on but not in the "cool" position. It took about an hour
before I finally noticed that it was getting overly warm. If the power
company has shut it down for five of twenty minutes, I never would have
noticed.

In the case of your sister's house, the system is either not sized properly,
not laid out properly, or not installed properly. The technology to have a
well balanced system has been around for decades. Unfortunately, things like
this happen.

I don;t know about that. An AC system is supposed to
be sized so that it runs most of the time on the hottest
days. If the power company then turns it off so it can't
run as much as it needs to, it seems perfectly possible
that some people could wind up with homes that are
too hot.

Another way of looking at it is this. The power companies
claim that it makes no difference in the temp in your
house. If that's the case, what good does it do the
power company? All the AC units out there are already
either randomly cycling because they can maintain the
set temp or else just running all the time. If they are
randomly cycling, then how do you reduce the load
to the power company without reducing the cooling?
If the ACs were all coming on and off at exactly the same
time, then by fooling with then, the power company
could even it out. But because they are already random,
I don't see what they are doing having any effect unless
it raises the temp in the house. And if the AC is running
100%, then for sure turning it off for 10 mins is going
to decrease the cooling output.

Absolutely right. The only way to save any energy is to decrease the average
delta-T (make it warmer in the house). Otherwise, you're just shifting *when*
the compressor is running, not how much. I don't see how shifting it by ten
minutes helps either. It'll just draw more power (than it otherwise would
have) later.

They are trying to reduce PEAK load. Lets say there are 1,000,000
power customers. And lets say they want to reduce the peak load 10%.
If all those users AC units were running then turning off 10% of the
running AC units would get MORE then a 10% reduction in peak load
because the AC while running is probably 50% of the load on each
house. So they only need to turn off perhaps 5% of the AC units at any
one time. If the meters are really "smart" they would be able to tell
if the AC is on or not if by no other way then simply the current draw
at that point in time compared to the average for a typical day in the
season. So they should be able to target running ac units. And since
it's "smart" they should be able to shut down *just the right number*
of them to reduce the peak load to whatever their target is. Going
back to it probably being 5% or less needing to be turned off at any
one time, that means of the 1 million houses, if they cycle thru each
house so no house gets hit twice until all the houses with running ac
have had a turn, it means they need to turn off 5% of a million, or
50,000 AC's. If they want to keep the off time to 10 minutes (1/6 of
an hour), it means that for every hour they want to reduce the peak
they need to deal with 300,000 AC's. Given that they have a million
of them, and on a really hot day most of them will be running at any
point in time, that means they have a 3+ hour time period where they
can be turning off AC units without ever hitting the same house twice.
Rounding up to make this example worse, lets say I'm off by a factor
of two, it still means that at most your AC will be turned off for 10
minutes twice in a 3 hour period and the off time would be 1.5 hours
apart. I doubt many people would ever notice those two-10 minute off
periods 1.5 hours apart. And for those rare people who do notice it,
by the time they notice it more then likely the 10 minutes will be
expired and it will be back on.

I just went thru this on the fly so I could have missed something but
assuming it's a reasonably good armchair estimate, the use of smart
meters to control peak use seems like a very good way to save money
(by not building excess capacity to deal with a couple hours of peak
use) with essentially zero impact on anyone's comfort and convenience.

While a quick read of this seems to make sense, the one statement I might
have an issue with is this:

"And since it's "smart" they should be able to shut down *just the right
number* of them to reduce the peak load to whatever their target is."

If you are talking about the meters, I don't think that they are smart
enough to know what's going on across the grid. Some other system would
have to tell the meters which AC units to shut down and for how long.

I think. ;-)

wrote:

Another way of looking at it is this. The power companies
claim that it makes no difference in the temp in your
house. If that's the case, what good does it do the
power company? All the AC units out there are already
either randomly cycling because they can maintain the
set temp or else just running all the time. If they are
randomly cycling, then how do you reduce the load
to the power company without reducing the cooling?
If the ACs were all coming on and off at exactly the same
time, then by fooling with then, the power company
could even it out. But because they are already random,
I don't see what they are doing having any effect unless
it raises the temp in the house. And if the AC is running
100%, then for sure turning it off for 10 mins is going
to decrease the cooling output.

Maybe all the cumulative inrush current happening randomly is part of
the problem. If they shut off compressors in whole neighborhoods, they
stand to route it elsewhere. Then just rotate the "rolling AC blackout"
around the city at different times.

On Sun, 12 Aug 2012 11:45:21 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 16:50:19 -0400, "
wrote:

On Wed, 8 Aug 2012 11:39:46 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Aug 8, 2:24*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"Hell Toupee" wrote in message

It's called a SaverSwitch by my utility company. They come out and add it
to the a/c unit, in exchange for giving the customer a 15% discount on
their monthly electric bill. The utility remotely controls it - during
peak load times (which are only an occasional thing hereabouts) they turn
off the a/c's compressor every twenty minutes or so, leaving the fan
running to circulate air in the house.

They claim that most people will typically notice little or no difference,
comfort-wise, when this is done. However, my sister has a 4-level home and
when she was on the program, her upper levels simply never had a chance to
cool down sufficiently, so she had them remove the switch.

I can see that system working, based on my own experience with AC. *Short
down times are not a big deal. *Many people keep the house cooler than it
has to be and a brief time down makes no discernable difference.

Recently, on a pretty hot day, there was a quick power outage. *My AC went
off, came back on but not in the "cool" position. *It took about an hour
before I finally noticed that it was getting overly warm. *If the power
company has shut it down for five of twenty minutes, I never would have
noticed.

In the case of your sister's house, the system is either not sized properly,
not laid out properly, or not installed properly. *The technology to have a
well balanced system has been around for decades. Unfortunately, things like
this happen.

I don;t know about that. An AC system is supposed to
be sized so that it runs most of the time on the hottest
days. If the power company then turns it off so it can't
run as much as it needs to, it seems perfectly possible
that some people could wind up with homes that are
too hot.

Another way of looking at it is this. The power companies
claim that it makes no difference in the temp in your
house. If that's the case, what good does it do the
power company? All the AC units out there are already
either randomly cycling because they can maintain the
set temp or else just running all the time. If they are
randomly cycling, then how do you reduce the load
to the power company without reducing the cooling?
If the ACs were all coming on and off at exactly the same
time, then by fooling with then, the power company
could even it out. But because they are already random,
I don't see what they are doing having any effect unless
it raises the temp in the house. And if the AC is running
100%, then for sure turning it off for 10 mins is going
to decrease the cooling output.

Absolutely right. The only way to save any energy is to decrease the average
delta-T (make it warmer in the house). Otherwise, you're just shifting *when*
the compressor is running, not how much. I don't see how shifting it by ten
minutes helps either. It'll just draw more power (than it otherwise would
have) later.

They are trying to reduce PEAK load. Lets say there are 1,000,000
power customers. And lets say they want to reduce the peak load 10%.
If all those users AC units were running then turning off 10% of the
running AC units would get MORE then a 10% reduction in peak load
because the AC while running is probably 50% of the load on each
house. So they only need to turn off perhaps 5% of the AC units at any
one time. If the meters are really "smart" they would be able to tell
if the AC is on or not if by no other way then simply the current draw
at that point in time compared to the average for a typical day in the
season. So they should be able to target running ac units. And since
it's "smart" they should be able to shut down *just the right number*
of them to reduce the peak load to whatever their target is. Going
back to it probably being 5% or less needing to be turned off at any
one time, that means of the 1 million houses, if they cycle thru each
house so no house gets hit twice until all the houses with running ac
have had a turn, it means they need to turn off 5% of a million, or
50,000 AC's. If they want to keep the off time to 10 minutes (1/6 of
an hour), it means that for every hour they want to reduce the peak
they need to deal with 300,000 AC's. Given that they have a million
of them, and on a really hot day most of them will be running at any
point in time, that means they have a 3+ hour time period where they
can be turning off AC units without ever hitting the same house twice.
Rounding up to make this example worse, lets say I'm off by a factor
of two, it still means that at most your AC will be turned off for 10
minutes twice in a 3 hour period and the off time would be 1.5 hours
apart. I doubt many people would ever notice those two-10 minute off
periods 1.5 hours apart. And for those rare people who do notice it,
by the time they notice it more then likely the 10 minutes will be
expired and it will be back on.

(You really need to breathe once in a while)

The problem with your theory is that it doesn't work. The peak power is
exactly the same (as is the average) unless they're leaving the power off long
enough for it to get warmer in the house. Then the difference is only in the
delta-T.

I just went thru this on the fly so I could have missed something but
assuming it's a reasonably good armchair estimate, the use of smart
meters to control peak use seems like a very good way to save money
(by not building excess capacity to deal with a couple hours of peak
use) with essentially zero impact on anyone's comfort and convenience.

Doesn't work. A soon as you turn the block of ACs back on, *every* one will
cycle on, increasing your peak. You've actually made it worse because they're
all synchronized, now, rather than random.

On Thu, 9 Aug 2012 06:27:01 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Aug 9, 8:44*am, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
wrote in message
Absolutely right. *The only way to save any energy is to decrease the
average
delta-T (make it warmer in the house). *Otherwise, you're just shifting
*when*
the compressor is running, not how much. *I don't see how shifting it by
ten
minutes helps either. *It'll just draw more power (than it otherwise would
have) later.

My guess is increasing the delta-T would make many of the ultra cold houses
more in line with *what they should be and that is at least part of the
goal. *I think the main goals is control at peak times. *The power company
will let yhour *house get a little warmer during the peak and they don't
care if it runs longer after industry shuts down around 4 and office close
down around five. *After that, they have the power available to bring your
house down to 40 degrees if you want.

And if it starts doing that, if you have a multi-story home
with a single system, I would think it could easily effect
the upper levels to an unacceptable level.

Or any unbalanced system. *I have an issue between my bedrooms and family
room. *The air handler is above the bedrooms and the family room is 50'
away,
with a too small (I think) diameter duct between. *The return is also in
the
wrong place, I think, but that's a done deal.

In a perfect world, there would be no imbalanced systems. *Seems a shame to
have to run a unit more than really needed to compensate for design flaws.
Changing duct sizes and air handlers now is rather costly though. *Even when
a house is built, there are many ways to insure a perfect balance, but they
can be costly. *Buyers are reluctant to spend an extra $5000 up front to
save a few hundred a year for life. *Granite counter tops are more important
than better insulation or better HVAC systems.

Actually I think the problem is that BUILDERS THINK
that homeowners won't spend some extra money
for a correct HVAC install, so they never get the
chance. Anyone who has had experience with a
half-assed system would highly value having it done
right. And I don't think it would typically cost an
extra $5,000. Just simple things, like putting decent,
large returns on the upper floors would go a long
way. And to do that, it's just a design/layout issue,
allowing space in the floor plan, eg a chase or similar
to run the duct in. Absent a chase, the HVAC guys
show up and are left with only wall cavities.

But even if it did cost $5K, I for one would much
rather that then be uncomfortable for 15 years.

Agree. When we bought our house in 2002, I asked and would have been
happy to pay for an upgraded AC system, but it wasn't an option. They
continually claimed (both the builder and the HVAC contractor who had
sized and installed them) that the 2 ton unit was properly calculated
for the house, even required to be that size by code, and tried
various tweaks that didn't really help much (and they always came out
at noon, when the undersized unit wasn't an issue). After sweltering
and dreading every 98+ degree day of which we get dozens over the
summer (it's a dry heat, really) knowing the house would be very
uncomfortable from 4-11pm, for 8 years, we finally got some (other)
contractors out and had it replaced with a 3 ton multi-speed system.
Now I'm sitting inside a 73 degree house while it's 106 outside, and
our electric bill is *much* less in the peak of the summer. I'd spend
the $6000 again in an instant now in the same situation...

Josh

On Sun, 12 Aug 2012 20:18:28 -0700, Josh
wrote:




Agree. When we bought our house in 2002, I asked and would have been
happy to pay for an upgraded AC system, but it wasn't an option. They
continually claimed (both the builder and the HVAC contractor who had
sized and installed them) that the 2 ton unit was properly calculated
for the house, even required to be that size by code, and tried
various tweaks that didn't really help much (and they always came out
at noon, when the undersized unit wasn't an issue). After sweltering
and dreading every 98+ degree day of which we get dozens over the
summer (it's a dry heat, really) knowing the house would be very
uncomfortable from 4-11pm, for 8 years, we finally got some (other)
contractors out and had it replaced with a 3 ton multi-speed system.
Now I'm sitting inside a 73 degree house while it's 106 outside, and
our electric bill is *much* less in the peak of the summer. I'd spend
the $6000 again in an instant now in the same situation...

Josh

Typical guidelines for design.

http://www.kohlerandlewis.com/pdf/AirDesign.pdf
Introduction
It is important for building owners to understand the criteria by
which air conditioning systems are
typically designed. These criteria which have been established by
ASHRAE (American Society of Heating, Refrigerating and
Air-Conditioning Engineers, Inc.) and are referenced by most energy
codes.

This memo presents the typical design criteria and explains their
ramifications. It also explains why air conditioning systems are not
typically designed to cool rooms below 75°F and why they may not
appear to work properly on very hot days.

What are the criteria for AC system design?
l Indoor design temperatu 75°F
l Outdoor design temperatu 85°-90°F
l Outdoor relative humidity: 50%

What does this mean?
What this means in practical terms is that a properly designed air
conditioning system will cool a
building to 75°F on a day when it is 85°-90°F outdoors with 50%
relative humidity (the temperature
varies depending on the geographic location of the building).

What are the consequences of these design criteria?
It is important to understand the following:
l The system is not designed to cool a building to less than 75°F on
the hottest days.
l If the outdoor temperature and humidity exceed 85°-90°F and 50%, the
building or certain areas
of the building may not be able to be cooled as low as 75°F.
l Temperatures and humidity may exceed these values for several days
at a time during a "hot
spell".

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

Doesn't work. A soon as you turn the block of ACs back on, *every* one will
cycle on, increasing your peak. You've actually made it worse because they're
all synchronized, now, rather than random.

Unless the shutdown unit also has a random delay built-in when restored.

On Mon, 13 Aug 2012 15:37:54 -0500, G. Morgan wrote:

wrote:

Doesn't work. A soon as you turn the block of ACs back on, *every* one will
cycle on, increasing your peak. You've actually made it worse because they're
all synchronized, now, rather than random.

Unless the shutdown unit also has a random delay built-in when restored.


Ok, but you've still accomplished nothing unless you've raised the average
delta-T. IOW, a ten-minute power off does absolutely nothing.

On 8/8/2012 8:17 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 8 Aug 2012 05:41:55 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

An overview story. But buried in the story is this:

"But progress is being made. CenterPoint Energy, a regional utility company
based in Texas, is in the final stages of constructing a network of smart
meters across the city and suburbs of Houston. By 2013, 2 million smart
meters will track energy use in Texans' homes, and allow CenterPoint to turn
off air conditioning units during times of high demand for instance,
although CenterPoint admits it will need customer consent for this."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...lights-on.html

Wonder: How can Centerpoint distinguish between an a/c and a 240v welding
machine? Or would they just cut both of them off?


They have to add a switching device to the circuit going to your A/C.
(water heater or whatever)


I don't know if it's still offered but Alabama Power installed a radio
controlled cutoff unit on customer AC condensers that would interrupt
the 24volt current to the contactor in the outdoor unit whenever the
power company had a big demand and transmitted the cutoff signal. I
don't know if it was for a certain period of time or what but it's been
about ten years since I last noticed one on an air conditioner. ^_^

TDD

On 8/8/12 9:35 AM, wrote:


It’s another reason for the HVAC technicians to charge more money.
Now when you go to do repairs you have to figure out if the unit
is shutting down due to one of the fan motor thermal cut-offs,
low pressure or the SaverSwitch.

The rural power companies here in Nebraska use something similar
on irrigation wells. The electronics control some sort of relay. It's
easy to bypass the relay for troubleshooting. It's only a problem if
the power controller is causing intermittent shutdowns.

On 8/8/2012 12:43 PM, wrote:
On Aug 8, 1:36 pm, wrote:
On Wed, 8 Aug 2012 07:35:18 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 8, 2012 3:41:55 AM UTC-7, HeyBub wrote:

It’s another reason for the HVAC technicians to charge more money.
Now when you go to do repairs you have to figure out if the unit
is shutting down due to one of the fan motor thermal cut-offs,
low pressure or the SaverSwitch.

I had this system in my condo in Treasure Island. There was an LED in
the controller that went from green to red when the utility was
shutting down the power.

The only thing that is different is the new meter gets the signal; and
WiFi's it to the local controller.

I have it here in NJ too with no smart meter. IT's a radio
controlled switch at the compressor unit. Have had it
for 20 years now. They used to give us a flat amount,
like $25 a year for having it. Now they switched to giving
out $2 every time they activate it. They rarely activate it,
so I'm not getting much anymore.


Alabama Power offered the same thing to customers at one time but I
haven't seen one in years. ^_^

TDD

HeyBub wrote:
An overview story. But buried in the story is this:

"But progress is being made. CenterPoint Energy, a regional utility
company based in Texas, is in the final stages of constructing a
network of smart meters across the city and suburbs of Houston. By
2013, 2 million smart meters will track energy use in Texans' homes,
and allow CenterPoint to turn off air conditioning units during times
of high demand for instance, although CenterPoint admits it will need
customer consent for this."
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...lights-on.html

Wonder: How can Centerpoint distinguish between an a/c and a 240v
welding machine? Or would they just cut both of them off?

It's been reported that 360 million Indians were without power. And that was
in just one block.

On 08/08/2012 11:39 AM, wrote:
And if the AC is running
100%, then for sure turning it off for 10 mins is going
to decrease the cooling output.

If you have to run your AC 100% of the time to be comfortable, you have
an incorrectly sized AC. Doesn't the power company take this into
consideration when they decide if you are eligible for the discount?

Jon

On 08/08/2012 01:50 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

Absolutely right. The only way to save any energy is to decrease the average
delta-T (make it warmer in the house). Otherwise, you're just shifting *when*
the compressor is running, not how much. I don't see how shifting it by ten
minutes helps either. It'll just draw more power (than it otherwise would
have) later.

Shifting the draw by ten minutes will make an effect if there are tens
of thousands of units controlled centrally. In such a situation,
staggering compressor draw will serve to even out the load across both a
local, as well as a larger area. Since the grid is already pushed
pretty far into its capacity, this helps to alleviate brownout
conditions, which, from my understanding, is the rationale behind their
scheme.

Jon

Or, the AC you have is running far less
than capacity.

Have it serviced.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...

If you have to run your AC 100% of the
time to be comfortable, you have an
incorrectly sized AC. Doesn't the power
company take this into consideration
when they decide if you are eligible for
the discount?

Jon

On Aug 15, 5:49*pm, Jon Danniken
wrote:
On 08/08/2012 11:39 AM, wrote:

* And if the AC is running
100%, then for sure turning it off for 10 mins is going
to decrease the cooling output.

If you have to run your AC 100% of the time to be comfortable, you have
an incorrectly sized AC.

Whether it's running at 100% or not wasn't material
to the discussion. I only gave it as one case of several
possibilities in analyzing whether the utility turning it
off on you is possible with it actually benefitting the
utility without raising the temperature in the house.

And I'd say it's not necessarily incorrectly sized if
it's running close to 100% on one of the historically
hottest days



*Doesn't the power company take this into
consideration when they decide if you are eligible for the discount?

Jon

No, they don't.
Do you really expect the power company to come out
and do a full by the book load calculation? They can
install their radio controlled widget in 30 mins, which
achieves their objective to shed load when needed.
And if they did the load calc, what would the point be
to not installing the device anyway? Like somebody
is going to say, "Gee, to get that device that really
benefits the power company, I have to install a new
AC system, so let's do it? "

On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 17:58:28 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Or, the AC you have is running far less
than capacity.

Have it serviced.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...

If you have to run your AC 100% of the
time to be comfortable, you have an
incorrectly sized AC. Doesn't the power
company take this into consideration
when they decide if you are eligible for
the discount?

Jon



Actually, for maximum efficiency and maximum dehumidifying, an air
conditioner that has to run constantly on the hottest anticipated day
to maintain the desired temperature is sized "just about right".
Mine is too big - just like my furnace - and runs about 8 hours a day
when outside temps hover in the low 90s F - which is as hot as it
usually gets around here. Running only roughly 30% of the time,
humidity is not as well controlled as it should be - an additional
dehumidifier extracts about a gallon or more a day with outside
humidity in the 73% range - which is on the low side of normal for a
sothwestern ontario hot summer day.

On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 19:28:25 -0400, wrote:


Actually, for maximum efficiency and maximum dehumidifying, an air
conditioner that has to run constantly on the hottest anticipated day
to maintain the desired temperature is sized "just about right".
Mine is too big - just like my furnace - and runs about 8 hours a day
when outside temps hover in the low 90s F - which is as hot as it
usually gets around here. Running only roughly 30% of the time,
humidity is not as well controlled as it should be - an additional
dehumidifier extracts about a gallon or more a day with outside
humidity in the 73% range - which is on the low side of normal for a
sothwestern ontario hot summer day.


Some decades ago, my father was the maintenance supervisor for a
printing plant. The plant was air conditioned to provide for better
handling of paper and printing. To control the humidity on damp
cooler days, they would run the heat at the same time as the AC.

I don't know the capacity of the AC, but I remember walking into the
ducts where the filter system was. .

On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 14:53:00 -0700, Jon Danniken
wrote:

On 08/08/2012 01:50 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

Absolutely right. The only way to save any energy is to decrease the average
delta-T (make it warmer in the house). Otherwise, you're just shifting *when*
the compressor is running, not how much. I don't see how shifting it by ten
minutes helps either. It'll just draw more power (than it otherwise would
have) later.

Shifting the draw by ten minutes will make an effect if there are tens
of thousands of units controlled centrally. In such a situation,
staggering compressor draw will serve to even out the load across both a
local, as well as a larger area. Since the grid is already pushed
pretty far into its capacity, this helps to alleviate brownout
conditions, which, from my understanding, is the rationale behind their
scheme.

Sure, you push the load back ten minutes. Now what?

On 8/15/2012 9:12 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 19:28:25 -0400, wrote:


Actually, for maximum efficiency and maximum dehumidifying, an air
conditioner that has to run constantly on the hottest anticipated day
to maintain the desired temperature is sized "just about right".
Mine is too big - just like my furnace - and runs about 8 hours a day
when outside temps hover in the low 90s F - which is as hot as it
usually gets around here. Running only roughly 30% of the time,
humidity is not as well controlled as it should be - an additional
dehumidifier extracts about a gallon or more a day with outside
humidity in the 73% range - which is on the low side of normal for a
sothwestern ontario hot summer day.


Some decades ago, my father was the maintenance supervisor for a
printing plant. The plant was air conditioned to provide for better
handling of paper and printing. To control the humidity on damp
cooler days, they would run the heat at the same time as the AC.

I don't know the capacity of the AC, but I remember walking into the
ducts where the filter system was. .


The air conditioning for data centers where something like a super
computer is operated on a raised floor has air handlers which blow
air down under the raised floor so cooling air can come up through
open sections under equipment to cool it. The air handlers often have
pans of water with electric heaters to add humidity to the air and
will control humidity using a method called reheat which will reheat
the cooled dehumidified air the bring it back up to room temperature. ^_^

TDD

On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 22:23:48 -0400, "
wrote:




Shifting the draw by ten minutes will make an effect if there are tens
of thousands of units controlled centrally. In such a situation,
staggering compressor draw will serve to even out the load across both a
local, as well as a larger area. Since the grid is already pushed
pretty far into its capacity, this helps to alleviate brownout
conditions, which, from my understanding, is the rationale behind their
scheme.

Sure, you push the load back ten minutes. Now what?

I imagine they do that in blocks and each gets a ten minute segment.
Peak load is usually between about noon and 5 PM so it would be a
juggle during that period. Once factories go off line about 4 and
offices close at 5, no need to juggle.

Of course, all any of us are doing is guessing. It would be
interesting to see the real method and results.

On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 05:55:25 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 22:23:48 -0400, "
wrote:




Shifting the draw by ten minutes will make an effect if there are tens
of thousands of units controlled centrally. In such a situation,
staggering compressor draw will serve to even out the load across both a
local, as well as a larger area. Since the grid is already pushed
pretty far into its capacity, this helps to alleviate brownout
conditions, which, from my understanding, is the rationale behind their
scheme.

Sure, you push the load back ten minutes. Now what?

I imagine they do that in blocks and each gets a ten minute segment.
Peak load is usually between about noon and 5 PM so it would be a
juggle during that period. Once factories go off line about 4 and
offices close at 5, no need to juggle.

So what? Every one of those ACs that went off-line will use that much more
power after coming back on line.

Of course, all any of us are doing is guessing. It would be
interesting to see the real method and results.

Ten minutes isn't going to do it. If they leave them off for hours, perhaps.
Then the delta-T is reduced, saving something.