Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
Home Repair (alt.home.repair) For all homeowners and DIYers with many experienced tradesmen. Solve your toughest home fix-it problems. |
Reply |
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
#1
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
On India's power outage
An overview story. But buried in the story is this:
"But progress is being made. CenterPoint Energy, a regional utility company based in Texas, is in the final stages of constructing a network of smart meters across the city and suburbs of Houston. By 2013, 2 million smart meters will track energy use in Texans' homes, and allow CenterPoint to turn off air conditioning units during times of high demand for instance, although CenterPoint admits it will need customer consent for this." http://www.newscientist.com/article/...lights-on.html Wonder: How can Centerpoint distinguish between an a/c and a 240v welding machine? Or would they just cut both of them off? |
#2
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
On India's power outage
On 8/8/2012 5:41 AM, HeyBub wrote:
An overview story. But buried in the story is this: "But progress is being made. CenterPoint Energy, a regional utility company based in Texas, is in the final stages of constructing a network of smart meters across the city and suburbs of Houston. By 2013, 2 million smart meters will track energy use in Texans' homes, and allow CenterPoint to turn off air conditioning units during times of high demand for instance, although CenterPoint admits it will need customer consent for this." http://www.newscientist.com/article/...lights-on.html Wonder: How can Centerpoint distinguish between an a/c and a 240v welding machine? Or would they just cut both of them off? It's called a SaverSwitch by my utility company. They come out and add it to the a/c unit, in exchange for giving the customer a 15% discount on their monthly electric bill. The utility remotely controls it - during peak load times (which are only an occasional thing hereabouts) they turn off the a/c's compressor every twenty minutes or so, leaving the fan running to circulate air in the house. They claim that most people will typically notice little or no difference, comfort-wise, when this is done. However, my sister has a 4-level home and when she was on the program, her upper levels simply never had a chance to cool down sufficiently, so she had them remove the switch. |
#3
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
On India's power outage
"Hell Toupee" wrote in message It's called a SaverSwitch by my utility company. They come out and add it to the a/c unit, in exchange for giving the customer a 15% discount on their monthly electric bill. The utility remotely controls it - during peak load times (which are only an occasional thing hereabouts) they turn off the a/c's compressor every twenty minutes or so, leaving the fan running to circulate air in the house. They claim that most people will typically notice little or no difference, comfort-wise, when this is done. However, my sister has a 4-level home and when she was on the program, her upper levels simply never had a chance to cool down sufficiently, so she had them remove the switch. I can see that system working, based on my own experience with AC. Short down times are not a big deal. Many people keep the house cooler than it has to be and a brief time down makes no discernable difference. Recently, on a pretty hot day, there was a quick power outage. My AC went off, came back on but not in the "cool" position. It took about an hour before I finally noticed that it was getting overly warm. If the power company has shut it down for five of twenty minutes, I never would have noticed. In the case of your sister's house, the system is either not sized properly, not laid out properly, or not installed properly. The technology to have a well balanced system has been around for decades. Unfortunately, things like this happen. |
#4
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
On India's power outage
On Aug 8, 2:24*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"Hell Toupee" wrote in message It's called a SaverSwitch by my utility company. They come out and add it to the a/c unit, in exchange for giving the customer a 15% discount on their monthly electric bill. The utility remotely controls it - during peak load times (which are only an occasional thing hereabouts) they turn off the a/c's compressor every twenty minutes or so, leaving the fan running to circulate air in the house. They claim that most people will typically notice little or no difference, comfort-wise, when this is done. However, my sister has a 4-level home and when she was on the program, her upper levels simply never had a chance to cool down sufficiently, so she had them remove the switch. I can see that system working, based on my own experience with AC. *Short down times are not a big deal. *Many people keep the house cooler than it has to be and a brief time down makes no discernable difference. Recently, on a pretty hot day, there was a quick power outage. *My AC went off, came back on but not in the "cool" position. *It took about an hour before I finally noticed that it was getting overly warm. *If the power company has shut it down for five of twenty minutes, I never would have noticed. In the case of your sister's house, the system is either not sized properly, not laid out properly, or not installed properly. *The technology to have a well balanced system has been around for decades. Unfortunately, things like this happen. I don;t know about that. An AC system is supposed to be sized so that it runs most of the time on the hottest days. If the power company then turns it off so it can't run as much as it needs to, it seems perfectly possible that some people could wind up with homes that are too hot. Another way of looking at it is this. The power companies claim that it makes no difference in the temp in your house. If that's the case, what good does it do the power company? All the AC units out there are already either randomly cycling because they can maintain the set temp or else just running all the time. If they are randomly cycling, then how do you reduce the load to the power company without reducing the cooling? If the ACs were all coming on and off at exactly the same time, then by fooling with then, the power company could even it out. But because they are already random, I don't see what they are doing having any effect unless it raises the temp in the house. And if the AC is running 100%, then for sure turning it off for 10 mins is going to decrease the cooling output. And if it starts doing that, if you have a multi-story home with a single system, I would think it could easily effect the upper levels to an unacceptable level. |
#5
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
On India's power outage
On Wed, 8 Aug 2012 11:39:46 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: On Aug 8, 2:24*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote: "Hell Toupee" wrote in message It's called a SaverSwitch by my utility company. They come out and add it to the a/c unit, in exchange for giving the customer a 15% discount on their monthly electric bill. The utility remotely controls it - during peak load times (which are only an occasional thing hereabouts) they turn off the a/c's compressor every twenty minutes or so, leaving the fan running to circulate air in the house. They claim that most people will typically notice little or no difference, comfort-wise, when this is done. However, my sister has a 4-level home and when she was on the program, her upper levels simply never had a chance to cool down sufficiently, so she had them remove the switch. I can see that system working, based on my own experience with AC. *Short down times are not a big deal. *Many people keep the house cooler than it has to be and a brief time down makes no discernable difference. Recently, on a pretty hot day, there was a quick power outage. *My AC went off, came back on but not in the "cool" position. *It took about an hour before I finally noticed that it was getting overly warm. *If the power company has shut it down for five of twenty minutes, I never would have noticed. In the case of your sister's house, the system is either not sized properly, not laid out properly, or not installed properly. *The technology to have a well balanced system has been around for decades. Unfortunately, things like this happen. I don;t know about that. An AC system is supposed to be sized so that it runs most of the time on the hottest days. If the power company then turns it off so it can't run as much as it needs to, it seems perfectly possible that some people could wind up with homes that are too hot. Another way of looking at it is this. The power companies claim that it makes no difference in the temp in your house. If that's the case, what good does it do the power company? All the AC units out there are already either randomly cycling because they can maintain the set temp or else just running all the time. If they are randomly cycling, then how do you reduce the load to the power company without reducing the cooling? If the ACs were all coming on and off at exactly the same time, then by fooling with then, the power company could even it out. But because they are already random, I don't see what they are doing having any effect unless it raises the temp in the house. And if the AC is running 100%, then for sure turning it off for 10 mins is going to decrease the cooling output. Absolutely right. The only way to save any energy is to decrease the average delta-T (make it warmer in the house). Otherwise, you're just shifting *when* the compressor is running, not how much. I don't see how shifting it by ten minutes helps either. It'll just draw more power (than it otherwise would have) later. And if it starts doing that, if you have a multi-story home with a single system, I would think it could easily effect the upper levels to an unacceptable level. Or any unbalanced system. I have an issue between my bedrooms and family room. The air handler is above the bedrooms and the family room is 50' away, with a too small (I think) diameter duct between. The return is also in the wrong place, I think, but that's a done deal. |
#6
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
On India's power outage
wrote in message Absolutely right. The only way to save any energy is to decrease the average delta-T (make it warmer in the house). Otherwise, you're just shifting *when* the compressor is running, not how much. I don't see how shifting it by ten minutes helps either. It'll just draw more power (than it otherwise would have) later. My guess is increasing the delta-T would make many of the ultra cold houses more in line with what they should be and that is at least part of the goal. I think the main goals is control at peak times. The power company will let yhour house get a little warmer during the peak and they don't care if it runs longer after industry shuts down around 4 and office close down around five. After that, they have the power available to bring your house down to 40 degrees if you want. And if it starts doing that, if you have a multi-story home with a single system, I would think it could easily effect the upper levels to an unacceptable level. Or any unbalanced system. I have an issue between my bedrooms and family room. The air handler is above the bedrooms and the family room is 50' away, with a too small (I think) diameter duct between. The return is also in the wrong place, I think, but that's a done deal. In a perfect world, there would be no imbalanced systems. Seems a shame to have to run a unit more than really needed to compensate for design flaws. Changing duct sizes and air handlers now is rather costly though. Even when a house is built, there are many ways to insure a perfect balance, but they can be costly. Buyers are reluctant to spend an extra $5000 up front to save a few hundred a year for life. Granite counter tops are more important than better insulation or better HVAC systems. |
#7
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
On India's power outage
On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 16:50:19 -0400, "
wrote: On Wed, 8 Aug 2012 11:39:46 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: On Aug 8, 2:24*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote: "Hell Toupee" wrote in message It's called a SaverSwitch by my utility company. They come out and add it to the a/c unit, in exchange for giving the customer a 15% discount on their monthly electric bill. The utility remotely controls it - during peak load times (which are only an occasional thing hereabouts) they turn off the a/c's compressor every twenty minutes or so, leaving the fan running to circulate air in the house. They claim that most people will typically notice little or no difference, comfort-wise, when this is done. However, my sister has a 4-level home and when she was on the program, her upper levels simply never had a chance to cool down sufficiently, so she had them remove the switch. I can see that system working, based on my own experience with AC. *Short down times are not a big deal. *Many people keep the house cooler than it has to be and a brief time down makes no discernable difference. Recently, on a pretty hot day, there was a quick power outage. *My AC went off, came back on but not in the "cool" position. *It took about an hour before I finally noticed that it was getting overly warm. *If the power company has shut it down for five of twenty minutes, I never would have noticed. In the case of your sister's house, the system is either not sized properly, not laid out properly, or not installed properly. *The technology to have a well balanced system has been around for decades. Unfortunately, things like this happen. I don;t know about that. An AC system is supposed to be sized so that it runs most of the time on the hottest days. If the power company then turns it off so it can't run as much as it needs to, it seems perfectly possible that some people could wind up with homes that are too hot. Another way of looking at it is this. The power companies claim that it makes no difference in the temp in your house. If that's the case, what good does it do the power company? All the AC units out there are already either randomly cycling because they can maintain the set temp or else just running all the time. If they are randomly cycling, then how do you reduce the load to the power company without reducing the cooling? If the ACs were all coming on and off at exactly the same time, then by fooling with then, the power company could even it out. But because they are already random, I don't see what they are doing having any effect unless it raises the temp in the house. And if the AC is running 100%, then for sure turning it off for 10 mins is going to decrease the cooling output. Absolutely right. The only way to save any energy is to decrease the average delta-T (make it warmer in the house). Otherwise, you're just shifting *when* the compressor is running, not how much. I don't see how shifting it by ten minutes helps either. It'll just draw more power (than it otherwise would have) later. They are trying to reduce PEAK load. Lets say there are 1,000,000 power customers. And lets say they want to reduce the peak load 10%. If all those users AC units were running then turning off 10% of the running AC units would get MORE then a 10% reduction in peak load because the AC while running is probably 50% of the load on each house. So they only need to turn off perhaps 5% of the AC units at any one time. If the meters are really "smart" they would be able to tell if the AC is on or not if by no other way then simply the current draw at that point in time compared to the average for a typical day in the season. So they should be able to target running ac units. And since it's "smart" they should be able to shut down *just the right number* of them to reduce the peak load to whatever their target is. Going back to it probably being 5% or less needing to be turned off at any one time, that means of the 1 million houses, if they cycle thru each house so no house gets hit twice until all the houses with running ac have had a turn, it means they need to turn off 5% of a million, or 50,000 AC's. If they want to keep the off time to 10 minutes (1/6 of an hour), it means that for every hour they want to reduce the peak they need to deal with 300,000 AC's. Given that they have a million of them, and on a really hot day most of them will be running at any point in time, that means they have a 3+ hour time period where they can be turning off AC units without ever hitting the same house twice. Rounding up to make this example worse, lets say I'm off by a factor of two, it still means that at most your AC will be turned off for 10 minutes twice in a 3 hour period and the off time would be 1.5 hours apart. I doubt many people would ever notice those two-10 minute off periods 1.5 hours apart. And for those rare people who do notice it, by the time they notice it more then likely the 10 minutes will be expired and it will be back on. I just went thru this on the fly so I could have missed something but assuming it's a reasonably good armchair estimate, the use of smart meters to control peak use seems like a very good way to save money (by not building excess capacity to deal with a couple hours of peak use) with essentially zero impact on anyone's comfort and convenience. |
#8
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
On India's power outage
|
#9
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
On India's power outage
|
#11
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
On AC sizing and cooling
Or, the AC you have is running far less
than capacity. Have it serviced. Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Jon Danniken" wrote in message ... If you have to run your AC 100% of the time to be comfortable, you have an incorrectly sized AC. Doesn't the power company take this into consideration when they decide if you are eligible for the discount? Jon |
#12
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
On India's power outage
On Aug 15, 5:49*pm, Jon Danniken
wrote: On 08/08/2012 11:39 AM, wrote: * And if the AC is running 100%, then for sure turning it off for 10 mins is going to decrease the cooling output. If you have to run your AC 100% of the time to be comfortable, you have an incorrectly sized AC. Whether it's running at 100% or not wasn't material to the discussion. I only gave it as one case of several possibilities in analyzing whether the utility turning it off on you is possible with it actually benefitting the utility without raising the temperature in the house. And I'd say it's not necessarily incorrectly sized if it's running close to 100% on one of the historically hottest days *Doesn't the power company take this into consideration when they decide if you are eligible for the discount? Jon No, they don't. Do you really expect the power company to come out and do a full by the book load calculation? They can install their radio controlled widget in 30 mins, which achieves their objective to shed load when needed. And if they did the load calc, what would the point be to not installing the device anyway? Like somebody is going to say, "Gee, to get that device that really benefits the power company, I have to install a new AC system, so let's do it? " |
#13
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
On India's power outage
"HeyBub" wrote in message ... An overview story. But buried in the story is this: "But progress is being made. CenterPoint Energy, a regional utility company based in Texas, is in the final stages of constructing a network of smart meters across the city and suburbs of Houston. By 2013, 2 million smart meters will track energy use in Texans' homes, and allow CenterPoint to turn off air conditioning units during times of high demand for instance, although CenterPoint admits it will need customer consent for this." http://www.newscientist.com/article/...lights-on.html Wonder: How can Centerpoint distinguish between an a/c and a 240v welding machine? Or would they just cut both of them off? The smart meter can't turn off the A/C by itself. It receives the signal from the utility and then sends a separate signal to the loads, such as the A/C, that the home owner has agreed (and gets a "reward" from the utility) to turn off. The A/C controller has to be "smart" too so as to receive the signal from the meter. Many large appliances are being built now with the "smart" capability included. Tomsic |
#14
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
On India's power outage
On Wednesday, August 8, 2012 3:41:55 AM UTC-7, HeyBub wrote:
An overview story. But buried in the story is this: "But progress is being made. CenterPoint Energy, a regional utility company based in Texas, is in the final stages of constructing a network of smart meters across the city and suburbs of Houston. By 2013, 2 million smart meters will track energy use in Texans' homes, and allow CenterPoint to turn off air conditioning units during times of high demand for instance, although CenterPoint admits it will need customer consent for this." http://www.newscientist.com/article/...lights-on.html Wonder: How can Centerpoint distinguish between an a/c and a 240v welding machine? Or would they just cut both of them off? It’s another reason for the HVAC technicians to charge more money. Now when you go to do repairs you have to figure out if the unit is shutting down due to one of the fan motor thermal cut-offs, low pressure or the SaverSwitch. |
#16
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
On India's power outage
On Aug 8, 1:36*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 8 Aug 2012 07:35:18 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On Wednesday, August 8, 2012 3:41:55 AM UTC-7, HeyBub wrote: It’s another reason for the HVAC technicians to charge more money. Now when you go to do repairs you have to figure out if the unit is shutting down due to one of the fan motor thermal cut-offs, low pressure or the SaverSwitch. I had this system in my condo in Treasure Island. There was an LED in the controller that went from green to red when the utility was shutting down the power. The only thing that is different is the new meter gets the signal; and WiFi's it to the local controller. I have it here in NJ too with no smart meter. IT's a radio controlled switch at the compressor unit. Have had it for 20 years now. They used to give us a flat amount, like $25 a year for having it. Now they switched to giving out $2 every time they activate it. They rarely activate it, so I'm not getting much anymore. |
#17
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
On India's power outage
|
#18
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
On India's power outage
On Wednesday, August 8, 2012 10:36:38 AM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:
On Wed, 8 Aug 2012 07:35:18 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On Wednesday, August 8, 2012 3:41:55 AM UTC-7, HeyBub wrote: It’s another reason for the HVAC technicians to charge more money. Now when you go to do repairs you have to figure out if the unit is shutting down due to one of the fan motor thermal cut-offs, low pressure or the SaverSwitch. I had this system in my condo in Treasure Island. There was an LED in the controller that went from green to red when the utility was shutting down the power. The only thing that is different is the new meter gets the signal; and WiFi's it to the local controller. Usually by the time anyone in the house realizes that the A/C may not be running it is back on again so they’re not sure if there was a problem with the unit or if it was turned off by the utility. |
#19
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
On India's power outage
I guess not many people know that about 8% of males are red green color
blind. Something like that. Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. wrote in message ... I had this system in my condo in Treasure Island. There was an LED in the controller that went from green to red when the utility was shutting down the power. The only thing that is different is the new meter gets the signal; and WiFi's it to the local controller. |
#20
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
On India's power outage
responding to
http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...ge-708848-.htm DA wrote: HeyBub wrote: http://www.newscientist.com/article/...lights-on.html Wonder: How can Centerpoint distinguish between an a/c and a 240v welding machine? Or would they just cut both of them off? I think the journalist writing that article had mixed two different things together. A meter, smart or otherwise, is in series with the rest of the loads in the house - never seen one installed specifically for an A/C condenser unit. So, if it did have a large contactor in it (and it doesn't), it would cut all the loads in the house, not just the outside A/C unit. The thing that does cut the A/C condenser unit off is called DCU (Digital Cycling Unit). It gets installed next to and in series with the outside A/C unit's own contactor and, when activated by the power company, ensures that the A/C condenser does not get power for 15 min out of every 30. Usually during peak demand hours. So, no worries about your welder unless it's hooked up in parallel with the outside A/C unit and you're welding on a hot weekday afternoon in the summer. DCU is a preventive measure, BTW. They are too slow to react to save the grid from a blackout that's already on the way. Also, I would not call them a part of a "smart grid" either - they are more like a part of the A/C appliance, sort of like crutches that save the power company from actually upgrading their grid equipment. Says Peco about their Smart A/C Saver DCUs: "Keep in mind that the primary purpose of the program is to balance the demand for electricity to minimize the potential for power outages and reduce the need for costly infrastructure additions." Cheers! ------------------------------------- /\_/\ ((@v@)) NIGHT ()::) OWL VV-VV |
#21
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
On India's power outage
"HeyBub" wrote in message ... An overview story. But buried in the story is this: "But progress is being made. CenterPoint Energy, a regional utility company based in Texas, is in the final stages of constructing a network of smart meters across the city and suburbs of Houston. By 2013, 2 million smart meters will track energy use in Texans' homes, and allow CenterPoint to turn off air conditioning units during times of high demand for instance, although CenterPoint admits it will need customer consent for this." http://www.newscientist.com/article/...lights-on.html Wonder: How can Centerpoint distinguish between an a/c and a 240v welding machine? Or would they just cut both of them off? The home is divided into essential and non-essential circuits. |
#22
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
On India's power outage
"HeyBub" wrote in message ... An overview story. But buried in the story is this: "But progress is being made. CenterPoint Energy, a regional utility company based in Texas, is in the final stages of constructing a network of smart meters across the city and suburbs of Houston. By 2013, 2 million smart meters will track energy use in Texans' homes, and allow CenterPoint to turn off air conditioning units during times of high demand for instance, although CenterPoint admits it will need customer consent for this." http://www.newscientist.com/article/...lights-on.html Wonder: How can Centerpoint distinguish between an a/c and a 240v welding machine? Or would they just cut both of them off? The A?C is on a separate circuit with the switch box on it, near the compressor unit You will not have a socket to plug your welder on that circuit I have had that on my A/C for years Works well and gets me a discount too. |
#23
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
On India's power outage
HeyBub wrote:
An overview story. But buried in the story is this: "But progress is being made. CenterPoint Energy, a regional utility company based in Texas, is in the final stages of constructing a network of smart meters across the city and suburbs of Houston. By 2013, 2 million smart meters will track energy use in Texans' homes, and allow CenterPoint to turn off air conditioning units during times of high demand for instance, although CenterPoint admits it will need customer consent for this." http://www.newscientist.com/article/...lights-on.html Wonder: How can Centerpoint distinguish between an a/c and a 240v welding machine? Or would they just cut both of them off? It's been reported that 360 million Indians were without power. And that was in just one block. |
#25
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
On India's power outage
On 8/8/2012 8:17 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 8 Aug 2012 05:41:55 -0500, "HeyBub" wrote: An overview story. But buried in the story is this: "But progress is being made. CenterPoint Energy, a regional utility company based in Texas, is in the final stages of constructing a network of smart meters across the city and suburbs of Houston. By 2013, 2 million smart meters will track energy use in Texans' homes, and allow CenterPoint to turn off air conditioning units during times of high demand for instance, although CenterPoint admits it will need customer consent for this." http://www.newscientist.com/article/...lights-on.html Wonder: How can Centerpoint distinguish between an a/c and a 240v welding machine? Or would they just cut both of them off? They have to add a switching device to the circuit going to your A/C. (water heater or whatever) I don't know if it's still offered but Alabama Power installed a radio controlled cutoff unit on customer AC condensers that would interrupt the 24volt current to the contactor in the outdoor unit whenever the power company had a big demand and transmitted the cutoff signal. I don't know if it was for a certain period of time or what but it's been about ten years since I last noticed one on an air conditioner. ^_^ TDD |
Reply |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Initial Power Draw After Power Outage | Home Repair | |||
Strange observations during a power outage | Home Repair | |||
Partial power outage? | Home Repair | |||
After Power Outage | Electronics Repair | |||
Power outage question | Electronics Repair |