I have 3 identical fluorescent fixtures in the garage about 15 years
old, 2 bulb 4' rapid start. A clue to their usage is that none of them
had had any bulbs changed in their life.

One of the units showed intermittent flickering sometimes one bulb was
good/bright, sometimes dim, the worse/dimmest bulb had a dark spot at
the end.

So I changed the bulbs, with no improvement. Used another new bulb.
Same thing. Took two working bulbs from the other fixture and put them
in. No improvement. I began to suspect something was wrong with the
ballast, but I wasn't smart enough to do any troubleshooting. All I
have is a little volt/ohm meter I use to troubleshoot computer power
supply problems.

So, I went to Home Depot and bought a ballast aided by an experienced
sales person who understood what fixture and bulbs I had. The new
ballast was not as 'fat' as the other but was the same length and color
coding of the wires.

I disassembled the fixture/ballast and replaced the ballast using wire
nuts acquired during the ballast trip and reconnected, reassembled, and
resecured the ceiling fixture.

No improvement.

Now I don't know if my original ballast was good or bad and/or if the
replacement ballast is good or bad. I would like to do some of the
diagnostic testing I didn't do during my original guesstimation that it
was/ must be/ the ballast.

How can I:

- benchtest my old ballast I removed
- test the integrity of the new ballast installed
- troubleshoot my malfunctioning fluorescent

If I could satisfactorily prove to myself that the new ballast isn't
good, then I could return it; but under the present conditions I have no
clue what is wrong.


--
Mike Easter

On Apr 30, 2:58*pm, Mike Easter wrote:
I have 3 identical fluorescent fixtures in the garage about 15 years
old, 2 bulb 4' rapid start. *A clue to their usage is that none of them
had had any bulbs changed in their life.

One of the units showed intermittent flickering sometimes one bulb was
good/bright, sometimes dim, the worse/dimmest bulb had a dark spot at
the end.

So I changed the bulbs, with no improvement. *Used another new bulb.
Same thing. *Took two working bulbs from the other fixture and put them
in. *No improvement. *I began to suspect something was wrong with the
ballast, but I wasn't smart enough to do any troubleshooting. *All I
have is a little volt/ohm meter I use to troubleshoot computer power
supply problems.

So, I went to Home Depot and bought a ballast aided by an experienced
sales person who understood what fixture and bulbs I had. *The new
ballast was not as 'fat' as the other but was the same length and color
coding of the wires.

I disassembled the fixture/ballast and replaced the ballast using wire
nuts acquired during the ballast trip and reconnected, reassembled, and
resecured the ceiling fixture.

No improvement.

Now I don't know if my original ballast was good or bad and/or if the
replacement ballast is good or bad. *I would like to do some of the
diagnostic testing I didn't do during my original guesstimation that it
was/ must be/ the ballast.

How can I:

* - benchtest my old ballast I removed
* - test the integrity of the new ballast installed
* - troubleshoot my malfunctioning fluorescent

If I could satisfactorily prove to myself that the new ballast isn't
good, then I could return it; but under the present conditions I have no
clue what is wrong.

--
Mike Easter

On Apr 30, 2:58*pm, Mike Easter wrote:
I have 3 identical fluorescent fixtures in the garage about 15 years
old, 2 bulb 4' rapid start. *A clue to their usage is that none of them
had had any bulbs changed in their life.

One of the units showed intermittent flickering sometimes one bulb was
good/bright, sometimes dim, the worse/dimmest bulb had a dark spot at
the end.

So I changed the bulbs, with no improvement. *Used another new bulb.
Same thing. *Took two working bulbs from the other fixture and put them
in. *No improvement. *I began to suspect something was wrong with the
ballast, but I wasn't smart enough to do any troubleshooting. *All I
have is a little volt/ohm meter I use to troubleshoot computer power
supply problems.

So, I went to Home Depot and bought a ballast aided by an experienced
sales person who understood what fixture and bulbs I had. *The new
ballast was not as 'fat' as the other but was the same length and color
coding of the wires.

I disassembled the fixture/ballast and replaced the ballast using wire
nuts acquired during the ballast trip and reconnected, reassembled, and
resecured the ceiling fixture.

No improvement.

Now I don't know if my original ballast was good or bad and/or if the
replacement ballast is good or bad. *I would like to do some of the
diagnostic testing I didn't do during my original guesstimation that it
was/ must be/ the ballast.

How can I:

* - benchtest my old ballast I removed
* - test the integrity of the new ballast installed
* - troubleshoot my malfunctioning fluorescent

If I could satisfactorily prove to myself that the new ballast isn't
good, then I could return it; but under the present conditions I have no
clue what is wrong.

--
Mike Easter

Hate to go through this, but swap into your known 'good' fixtures. If
it doesn't destroy it, it was ok.

"Mike Easter" wrote in message
...
So, I went to Home Depot and bought a ballast aided by an experienced
sales person who understood what fixture and bulbs I had. The new ballast
was not as 'fat' as the other but was the same length and color coding of
the wires.



Even with the same color wires, the wiring may be differant. The normal
black and white wires should be the same as they go to the voltage comming
in. The wires going to the bulbs may not go to the same place as the same
color on the new ballast. There should be a wiring diagram on the ballast.
Also double check that the words on the ballast match the words on the bulbs
as they may be differant. There are many kinds of ballasts and bulbs that
look similar.

On 4/30/2012 5:30 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Mike wrote in message
...
So, I went to Home Depot and bought a ballast aided by an experienced
sales person who understood what fixture and bulbs I had. The new ballast
was not as 'fat' as the other but was the same length and color coding of
the wires.

....
Even with the same color wires, the wiring may be differant....

True but when it functioned the same as the old, the probabilities went
way up that the ballast wasn't/isn't the problem and the new one was
installed correctly and is ok...

In general, the symptoms are symptomatic of quick-start fixture w/
bad/missing ground or missing/improperly installed reflectors that are
needed for the req'd capacitive starting field...

I'd suggest the following page to the OP...

http://nemesis.lonestar.org/reference/electricity/fluorescent/trouble.html

--

On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 14:58:27 -0700, Mike Easter
wrote:

I have 3 identical fluorescent fixtures in the garage about 15 years
old, 2 bulb 4' rapid start. A clue to their usage is that none of them
had had any bulbs changed in their life.

One of the units showed intermittent flickering sometimes one bulb was
good/bright, sometimes dim, the worse/dimmest bulb had a dark spot at
the end.

So I changed the bulbs, with no improvement. Used another new bulb.
Same thing. Took two working bulbs from the other fixture and put them
in. No improvement. I began to suspect something was wrong with the
ballast, but I wasn't smart enough to do any troubleshooting. All I
have is a little volt/ohm meter I use to troubleshoot computer power
supply problems.

So, I went to Home Depot and bought a ballast aided by an experienced
sales person who understood what fixture and bulbs I had. The new
ballast was not as 'fat' as the other but was the same length and color
coding of the wires.

I disassembled the fixture/ballast and replaced the ballast using wire
nuts acquired during the ballast trip and reconnected, reassembled, and
resecured the ceiling fixture.

No improvement.

Now I don't know if my original ballast was good or bad and/or if the
replacement ballast is good or bad. I would like to do some of the
diagnostic testing I didn't do during my original guesstimation that it
was/ must be/ the ballast.

How can I:

- benchtest my old ballast I removed
- test the integrity of the new ballast installed
- troubleshoot my malfunctioning fluorescent

If I could satisfactorily prove to myself that the new ballast isn't
good, then I could return it; but under the present conditions I have no
clue what is wrong.

Why mess with it? A whole new complete 2 tube fixture is under US$20
(at least it is at my local Lowes). It's an easy installation, and
only 2 wires to mess with. In my case I modernized with a nicer
looking fixture and the new slimmer instant on tubes.

On May 1, 12:35*am, AJL wrote:
On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 14:58:27 -0700, Mike Easter
wrote:





I have 3 identical fluorescent fixtures in the garage about 15 years
old, 2 bulb 4' rapid start. *A clue to their usage is that none of them
had had any bulbs changed in their life.

One of the units showed intermittent flickering sometimes one bulb was
good/bright, sometimes dim, the worse/dimmest bulb had a dark spot at
the end.

So I changed the bulbs, with no improvement. *Used another new bulb.
Same thing. *Took two working bulbs from the other fixture and put them
in. *No improvement. *I began to suspect something was wrong with the
ballast, but I wasn't smart enough to do any troubleshooting. *All I
have is a little volt/ohm meter I use to troubleshoot computer power
supply problems.

So, I went to Home Depot and bought a ballast aided by an experienced
sales person who understood what fixture and bulbs I had. *The new
ballast was not as 'fat' as the other but was the same length and color
coding of the wires.

I disassembled the fixture/ballast and replaced the ballast using wire
nuts acquired during the ballast trip and reconnected, reassembled, and
resecured the ceiling fixture.

No improvement.

Now I don't know if my original ballast was good or bad and/or if the
replacement ballast is good or bad. *I would like to do some of the
diagnostic testing I didn't do during my original guesstimation that it
was/ must be/ the ballast.

How can I:

*- benchtest my old ballast I removed
*- test the integrity of the new ballast installed
*- troubleshoot my malfunctioning fluorescent

If I could satisfactorily prove to myself that the new ballast isn't
good, then I could return it; but under the present conditions I have no
clue what is wrong.

Why mess with it? A whole new complete 2 tube fixture is under US$20
(at least it is at my local Lowes). It's an easy installation, and
only 2 wires to mess with. In my case I modernized with a nicer
looking fixture and the new slimmer instant on tubes.- Hide quoted text -


I thought fluorescent fixtures had to have a good ground to work
properly. wouldn't that be 3 wires?

-----------------------------------------------------------
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On Apr 30, 2:58*pm, Mike Easter wrote:
I have 3 identical fluorescent fixtures in the garage about 15 years
old, 2 bulb 4' rapid start. *A clue to their usage is that none of them
had had any bulbs changed in their life.

One of the units showed intermittent flickering sometimes one bulb was
good/bright, sometimes dim, the worse/dimmest bulb had a dark spot at
the end.

So I changed the bulbs, with no improvement. *Used another new bulb.
Same thing. *Took two working bulbs from the other fixture and put them
in. *No improvement. *I began to suspect something was wrong with the
ballast, but I wasn't smart enough to do any troubleshooting. *All I
have is a little volt/ohm meter I use to troubleshoot computer power
supply problems.

So, I went to Home Depot and bought a ballast aided by an experienced
sales person who understood what fixture and bulbs I had. *The new
ballast was not as 'fat' as the other but was the same length and color
coding of the wires.

I disassembled the fixture/ballast and replaced the ballast using wire
nuts acquired during the ballast trip and reconnected, reassembled, and
resecured the ceiling fixture.

No improvement.

Now I don't know if my original ballast was good or bad and/or if the
replacement ballast is good or bad. *I would like to do some of the
diagnostic testing I didn't do during my original guesstimation that it
was/ must be/ the ballast.

How can I:

* - benchtest my old ballast I removed
* - test the integrity of the new ballast installed
* - troubleshoot my malfunctioning fluorescent

If I could satisfactorily prove to myself that the new ballast isn't
good, then I could return it; but under the present conditions I have no
clue what is wrong.

--
Mike Easter

god, that is why I hate fluorescent fixtures.

so

AJL wrote in
:

the new slimmer instant on tubes.



Instant-on is, on its own, reason enough to replace an old fixture instead
of fixing it.


--
Tegger

AJL wrote:
Mike Easter

So, I went to Home Depot and bought a ballast

If I could satisfactorily prove to myself that the new ballast isn't
good, then I could return it; but under the present conditions I have no
clue what is wrong.

Why mess with it? A whole new complete 2 tube fixture is under US$20
(at least it is at my local Lowes). It's an easy installation, and
only 2 wires to mess with. In my case I modernized with a nicer
looking fixture and the new slimmer instant on tubes.

- one part of me wants to have the 3 fixtures match
- when I was at HD, the ballast I bought was $16. I had heard that
fixtures often cost less than a ballast so I shopped that - HD had a $13
2 bulb fixture, but its design wouldn't match my ceiling mounted
situation. It was designed with an 'exterior' power source configuration
instead of ceiling.
-in another post I'll get back to answering some other posts about the
ground which is OK and the match for the wiring scheme and the ballast
specs which I need to read the fine print now mounted on the ceiling at
arms length from my platform :-).


--
Mike Easter

On 4/30/2012 4:27 PM, Robert Macy wrote:
On Apr 30, 2:58 pm, Mike wrote:
I have 3 identical fluorescent fixtures in the garage about 15 years
old, 2 bulb 4' rapid start. A clue to their usage is that none of them
had had any bulbs changed in their life.

One of the units showed intermittent flickering sometimes one bulb was
good/bright, sometimes dim, the worse/dimmest bulb had a dark spot at
the end.

So I changed the bulbs, with no improvement. Used another new bulb.
Same thing. Took two working bulbs from the other fixture and put them
in. No improvement. I began to suspect something was wrong with the
ballast, but I wasn't smart enough to do any troubleshooting. All I
have is a little volt/ohm meter I use to troubleshoot computer power
supply problems.

So, I went to Home Depot and bought a ballast aided by an experienced
sales person who understood what fixture and bulbs I had. The new
ballast was not as 'fat' as the other but was the same length and color
coding of the wires.

I disassembled the fixture/ballast and replaced the ballast using wire
nuts acquired during the ballast trip and reconnected, reassembled, and
resecured the ceiling fixture.

No improvement.

Now I don't know if my original ballast was good or bad and/or if the
replacement ballast is good or bad. I would like to do some of the
diagnostic testing I didn't do during my original guesstimation that it
was/ must be/ the ballast.

How can I:

- benchtest my old ballast I removed
- test the integrity of the new ballast installed
- troubleshoot my malfunctioning fluorescent

If I could satisfactorily prove to myself that the new ballast isn't
good, then I could return it; but under the present conditions I have no
clue what is wrong.

--
Mike Easter

Hate to go through this, but swap into your known 'good' fixtures. If
it doesn't destroy it, it was ok.

Swapping bulbs that work from a working fixture and swapping bulbs that
don't work from another fixture is a real good test.

A black end on a fluorescent tube generally indicates the filament is
not heating. Might be burned out (try measuring resistance between
pins). Could be bad connection at socket or wires connecting to socket.
Could be bad ballast, but that is least likely.

--
bud--

On 5/1/2012 9:15 AM, Mike Easter wrote:
....

-in another post I'll get back to answering some other posts about the
ground which is OK and the match for the wiring scheme and the ballast
specs which I need to read the fine print now mounted on the ceiling at
arms length from my platform :-).

It's almost certainly _not_ the ballast (prove it to yourself; put the
old one you took from the troublesome fixture and put it in one of the
working fixtures. Odds are the problem will stay w/ the old fixture.

Did you look at the troubleshooting guide at the link I posted? I still
expect the most likely is the ground isn't what you think it is (as for
how good or the reflector(s) aren't grounded or close enough to the tube
in the bad one). Does it light or change characteristics if you touch
the tube(s) while it's on? If so, that's pretty much conclusive.

--

dpb wrote:

Did you look at the troubleshooting guide at the link I posted?

I had actually looked at that guide in the beginning before I removed
the fixture and replaced the ballast when I was trying to figure out
whether or not to replace the ballast.

I still expect the most likely is the ground isn't what you think it
is (as for how good or the reflector(s) aren't grounded or close
enough to the tube in the bad one).

This is the same ground, big fat ground with the power, which is
securely 'bolted' with a nut onto the fixture that has been working on
the fixture for 15 years. We would have to imagine that something has
'gone wrong' with the ground wire's grounding condition. I don't even
know how to test that.

Does it light or change characteristics if you touch
the tube(s) while it's on?

No the light characteristics does not change.

Presently the light characteristics, new ballast, *old* (original)
bulbs, are that the light is not flickering or variable, but that both
bulbs are very 'dim' compared to the other lights.

The black ended bulb is dimmer than the other 15 y/o bulb.

With 2 brand new bulbs, the 'brightest' light is less than 1/3 as bright
as the old lights and the other light is mostly very dim but a little
brighter on one end, but still less than half as bright as the 1/3
bright bulb. There is no flickering and no variability when I 'fool
with' the bulbs.

I'm puzzled about this bulb to bulb discrepancy with the new ballast.


--
Mike Easter

On Monday, April 30, 2012 4:58:27 PM UTC-5, Mike Easter wrote:
I have 3 identical fluorescent fixtures in the garage about 15 years
old, 2 bulb 4' rapid start. A clue to their usage is that none of them
had had any bulbs changed in their life.

One of the units showed intermittent flickering sometimes one bulb was
good/bright, sometimes dim, the worse/dimmest bulb had a dark spot at
the end.

So I changed the bulbs, with no improvement. Used another new bulb.
Same thing. Took two working bulbs from the other fixture and put them
in. No improvement. I began to suspect something was wrong with the
ballast, but I wasn't smart enough to do any troubleshooting. All I
have is a little volt/ohm meter I use to troubleshoot computer power
supply problems.

So, I went to Home Depot and bought a ballast aided by an experienced
sales person who understood what fixture and bulbs I had. The new
ballast was not as 'fat' as the other but was the same length and color
coding of the wires.

I disassembled the fixture/ballast and replaced the ballast using wire
nuts acquired during the ballast trip and reconnected, reassembled, and
resecured the ceiling fixture.

No improvement.

Now I don't know if my original ballast was good or bad and/or if the
replacement ballast is good or bad. I would like to do some of the
diagnostic testing I didn't do during my original guesstimation that it
was/ must be/ the ballast.

How can I:

- benchtest my old ballast I removed
- test the integrity of the new ballast installed
- troubleshoot my malfunctioning fluorescent

If I could satisfactorily prove to myself that the new ballast isn't
good, then I could return it; but under the present conditions I have no
clue what is wrong.


--
Mike Easter

Mike, you stated that the ballast was smaller but is it a solid-state ballast?
I find the smaller solid-state ones put-out a more reliable voltage, all things considered. (load,ground,type of tube)

Bob_Villa wrote:
Mike Easter wrote:

The new ballast was not as 'fat' as the other but was the same
length and color coding of the wires.

Mike, you stated that the ballast was smaller but is it a solid-state
ballast?

I find the smaller solid-state ones put-out a more reliable
voltage,all things considered. (load,ground,type of tube)

My understanding of ballast types is based on this

http://nemesis.lonestar.org/referenc...t/trouble.html
The Fluorescent Lighting System

.... which distinguishes 4 sections, Pre-Heat-Start, Rapid-Start,
Instant-Start, and Compact.

My concept of my rapid-start ballast is that they are iron or magnetic
and look like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rt_Ballast.jpg

or previewable http://goo.gl/DP6BO+

.... whereas solid state are instant-start, but I don't have a good
example pic for that except maybe this one
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...EL_2x58ngn.jpg


or http://goo.gl/rQlAT+

--
Mike Easter

On Monday, April 30, 2012 4:58:27 PM UTC-5, Mike Easter wrote:
I have 3 identical fluorescent fixtures in the garage about 15 years
old, 2 bulb 4' rapid start. A clue to their usage is that none of them
had had any bulbs changed in their life.

One of the units showed intermittent flickering sometimes one bulb was
good/bright, sometimes dim, the worse/dimmest bulb had a dark spot at
the end.

So I changed the bulbs, with no improvement. Used another new bulb.
Same thing. Took two working bulbs from the other fixture and put them
in. No improvement. I began to suspect something was wrong with the
ballast, but I wasn't smart enough to do any troubleshooting. All I
have is a little volt/ohm meter I use to troubleshoot computer power
supply problems.

So, I went to Home Depot and bought a ballast aided by an experienced
sales person who understood what fixture and bulbs I had. The new
ballast was not as 'fat' as the other but was the same length and color
coding of the wires.

I disassembled the fixture/ballast and replaced the ballast using wire
nuts acquired during the ballast trip and reconnected, reassembled, and
resecured the ceiling fixture.

No improvement.

Now I don't know if my original ballast was good or bad and/or if the
replacement ballast is good or bad. I would like to do some of the
diagnostic testing I didn't do during my original guesstimation that it
was/ must be/ the ballast.

How can I:

- benchtest my old ballast I removed
- test the integrity of the new ballast installed
- troubleshoot my malfunctioning fluorescent

If I could satisfactorily prove to myself that the new ballast isn't
good, then I could return it; but under the present conditions I have no
clue what is wrong.


--
Mike Easter

I use mostly 4ft 4 tube ones and the wires are correspondingly the same as their mag brothers.
I have had the same problem as you, but with a 4 tube set-up. Replaced with mag-type and new tubes (T8) and they light dimly. A new electronic one and it worked as it should.

On Tue, 1 May 2012 05:46:17 -0700 (PDT), Limp Arbor
wrote:

On May 1, 12:35*am, AJL wrote:

Why mess with it? A whole new complete 2 tube fixture is under US$20
(at least it is at my local Lowes). It's an easy installation, and
only 2 wires to mess with. In my case I modernized with a nicer
looking fixture and the new slimmer instant on tubes.- Hide quoted text -


I thought fluorescent fixtures had to have a good ground to work
properly.

It will work just fine with just 2 wires (no ground). My last house
was wired in the 50's (with no ground wires) so I just ignored the
ground wire on the fixtures I replaced.

wouldn't that be 3 wires?

But you're right in modern houses it's wise to use the ground wire for
safeties sake. So I stand corrected at 3 wires. But still that has to
be easier than trying to match wires on a very old balun.

On 5/1/2012 11:01 AM, Mike Easter wrote:
dpb wrote:
....

I still expect the most likely is the ground isn't what you think it
is (as for how good or the reflector(s) aren't grounded or close
enough to the tube in the bad one).

This is the same ground, big fat ground with the power, which is
securely 'bolted' with a nut onto the fixture that has been working on
the fixture for 15 years. We would have to imagine that something has
'gone wrong' with the ground wire's grounding condition. I don't even
know how to test that.
....

It's not hard to conceive of the ground connection having developed some
corrosion at the fixture end particularly in a garage or even a
connection at the outlet where the fixtures are wired/plugged in.

Also, the ballast must make good contact for grounding as well. I'd try
a little emery cloth to shine up the contacts and check all connections
for being bright/tight first.

Are you sure you have the proper tube designations?

Also, it's possible w/ time the lamp contacts are dirty/loose and/or
have some corrosion as well.

Have you checked the actual supply voltage to be sure there isn't
something wrong w/ the supply--perhaps there's a loose or
high-resistance connection in the circuit itself.

--

Sure sounds like a ground problem to me.

Oversimplified a bit, current flows from end to end in a tube after
the lamp has started.

But in a rapid start lamp, starting requires current to flow from one
end a little way down the tube then TO the ground, this point works
its way down the tube until full operation. Of course it isn't
"connected" to the ground with a wire, it is a capacitative coupling.

15 years old? scrub the heck out of the whole fixture. Dirt can be
enough to interrupt the coupling.

On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 14:58:27 -0700, Mike Easter
wrote:

I have 3 identical fluorescent fixtures in the garage about 15 years
old, 2 bulb 4' rapid start. A clue to their usage is that none of them
had had any bulbs changed in their life.

One of the units showed intermittent flickering sometimes one bulb was
good/bright, sometimes dim, the worse/dimmest bulb had a dark spot at
the end.

So I changed the bulbs, with no improvement. Used another new bulb.
Same thing. Took two working bulbs from the other fixture and put them
in. No improvement. I began to suspect something was wrong with the
ballast, but I wasn't smart enough to do any troubleshooting. All I
have is a little volt/ohm meter I use to troubleshoot computer power
supply problems.

So, I went to Home Depot and bought a ballast aided by an experienced
sales person who understood what fixture and bulbs I had. The new
ballast was not as 'fat' as the other but was the same length and color
coding of the wires.

I disassembled the fixture/ballast and replaced the ballast using wire
nuts acquired during the ballast trip and reconnected, reassembled, and
resecured the ceiling fixture.

No improvement.

Now I don't know if my original ballast was good or bad and/or if the
replacement ballast is good or bad. I would like to do some of the
diagnostic testing I didn't do during my original guesstimation that it
was/ must be/ the ballast.

How can I:

- benchtest my old ballast I removed
- test the integrity of the new ballast installed
- troubleshoot my malfunctioning fluorescent

If I could satisfactorily prove to myself that the new ballast isn't
good, then I could return it; but under the present conditions I have no
clue what is wrong.

There's only one thing left. One of the sockets that the bulb is not
making a good contact with the pins on the bulbs. (unless you got the
wrong ballast or wired it wrong).

An electronic ballast would have been the better replacement. They save
energy by using the newer low power bulbs and are less troublesome.

One other thing, did you check to be sure the voltage is correct to that
fixture?

If you insist on keeping the older fixture for appearance, buy a new
fixtire and transfer the guts from the new one into the old one. All
there is are ballast, 4 sockets, and the bulbs. You might have to drill
new holes to make the ballast fit, and some sockets may mount
differently.

Check the sockets first, both the fit against the bulb pins and the wire
connections inside.

Bob_Villa wrote:
Mike Easter wrote:

Now I don't know if my original ballast was good or bad and/or if the
replacement ballast is good or bad. I would like to do some of the
diagnostic testing I didn't do during my original guesstimation that it
was/ must be/ the ballast.

How can I:

- benchtest my old ballast I removed
- test the integrity of the new ballast installed
- troubleshoot my malfunctioning fluorescent

If I could satisfactorily prove to myself that the new ballast isn't
good, then I could return it; but under the present conditions I have no
clue what is wrong.

I use mostly 4ft 4 tube ones and the wires are correspondingly the
same as their mag brothers. I have had the same problem as you, but
with a 4 tube set-up. Replaced with mag-type and new tubes (T8) and
they light dimly. A new electronic one and it worked as it should.

Grrr. I will be irked if I have to eat a brand new non-working ballast.

I would also be more irked if I bought another new electronic ballast
for an unknown problem and I had to eat it /too/ while the light still
didn't work properly.

I really feel that I should make a diagnosis somehow.

--
Mike Easter

dpb wrote:
Mike Easter wrote:
dpb wrote:
...

I still expect the most likely is the ground isn't what you think it
is (as for how good or the reflector(s) aren't grounded or close
enough to the tube in the bad one).

This is the same ground, big fat ground with the power, which is
securely 'bolted' with a nut onto the fixture that has been working on
the fixture for 15 years. We would have to imagine that something has
'gone wrong' with the ground wire's grounding condition. I don't even
know how to test that.
...

It's not hard to conceive of the ground connection having developed some
corrosion at the fixture end particularly in a garage or even a
connection at the outlet where the fixtures are wired/plugged in.

The appearance of the ground in the ceiling power connection is
relatively shiny copper, no corrosion. The bolt and nut are not
corroded. I can't imagine a discontinuity between the ceiling ground
and its connection back to a breaker box ground, nor a breaker box
ground problem. That wiring is off a subpanel inside the house. The
location of these garage lights are a long way from 'outside' - the
garage doors are always closed, no weather gets inside.

Also, the ballast must make good contact for grounding as well. I'd try
a little emery cloth to shine up the contacts and check all connections
for being bright/tight first.

I would like to repeat that the two sides do not perform identically
with the old or the new ballast. One side is almost not lit at all and
what lighting there is, is on about 8" of bulb, while the other side is
about 1/3 or 1/4 as bright as normal and uniformly distributed
throughout the length of the bulb. If I switch the bulbs, the same
side, not the same bulb, is as described.

Are you sure you have the proper tube designations?

Yes, except that the newer bulbs are 34W and the old bulbs are 40W.

Also, it's possible w/ time the lamp contacts are dirty/loose and/or
have some corrosion as well.

The lamp contacts are clean to appearance and the problem does not
change with twisting the contacts around.

Have you checked the actual supply voltage to be sure there isn't
something wrong w/ the supply--perhaps there's a loose or
high-resistance connection in the circuit itself.

I was going to work on/ measure/ the voltages (and resistance) at the
ballast as soon I found some information beyond my knowing what the
house voltage should be. The voltage at the ceiling fixture in question
is bound to be the same as the other two, they are all on the same circuit.

I think the voltages that can be checked are those of the house current
and also the output of the ballast. Also I think the resistance across
the ballast (somewhere) is supposed to be zero. I'm trying to find some
docs on that.

If there is some kind of ground problem here, I don't know how to
find/prove it. The appearance and the physical security and overall
'beefiness' of the ground are all strong. It looks like a serious ground
of good integrity and strong connection.

I have examined the specs in fine print on the installed ballast and it
is like that of the removed one.

If I had to eat this ballast and disassemble a complete fixture which
costs less than the ballast I bought and would be eating, it would be
necessary for the fixture to have tombstones with slots which match the
ones on my fixture. I don't really like that idea.

I also don't like the idea of swapping out a ballast from an existing
working ceiling fixture. What I really want is some hard numbers on the
installed ballast which satisfy the expected voltages input and output
and resistance across somewhere on the ballast. I have no way to do
frequency checking of the ballast output.


--
Mike Easter

"Mike Easter" wrote in message
...

Grrr. I will be irked if I have to eat a brand new non-working ballast.

I would also be more irked if I bought another new electronic ballast for
an unknown problem and I had to eat it /too/ while the light still didn't
work properly.

I really feel that I should make a diagnosis somehow.

What is it with this light. There are only a couple of things that can be
wrong.

From what I have read, you have bought new bulbs and a new ballast.

Make sure the make sure the bulbs and the ballast are the same. You have
two power wires, the black and white, then only about 4 more wires. Make
sure the wires are going to the correct places, not just by matching the
colors. Then the connections at the sockets the bulbs fit in could be bad.
Also make sure the ballast case is grounded to the light fixture.

How many wires are comming out of your ballast and what color are they ?

If your bulbs are marked raid start, the ballast should have 8 or 9 wires.
The green, black and white (standard house colors) and 2 each of blue, red,
yellow.

On Monday, April 30, 2012 9:58:27 PM UTC, Mike Easter wrote:
I have 3 identical fluorescent fixtures in the garage about 15 years
old, 2 bulb 4' rapid start. A clue to their usage is that none of them
had had any bulbs changed in their life.

One of the units showed intermittent flickering sometimes one bulb was
good/bright, sometimes dim, the worse/dimmest bulb had a dark spot at
the end.

So I changed the bulbs, with no improvement. Used another new bulb.
Same thing. Took two working bulbs from the other fixture and put them
in. No improvement. I began to suspect something was wrong with the
ballast, but I wasn't smart enough to do any troubleshooting. All I
have is a little volt/ohm meter I use to troubleshoot computer power
supply problems.

So, I went to Home Depot and bought a ballast aided by an experienced
sales person who understood what fixture and bulbs I had. The new
ballast was not as 'fat' as the other but was the same length and color
coding of the wires.

I disassembled the fixture/ballast and replaced the ballast using wire
nuts acquired during the ballast trip and reconnected, reassembled, and
resecured the ceiling fixture.

No improvement.

Now I don't know if my original ballast was good or bad and/or if the
replacement ballast is good or bad. I would like to do some of the
diagnostic testing I didn't do during my original guesstimation that it
was/ must be/ the ballast.

How can I:

- benchtest my old ballast I removed
- test the integrity of the new ballast installed
- troubleshoot my malfunctioning fluorescent

If I could satisfactorily prove to myself that the new ballast isn't
good, then I could return it; but under the present conditions I have no
clue what is wrong.


--
Mike Easter

I hadnt used the work bench in my garage for years after building a shop so when I tried the light over the bench the other day it worked about like yours. Flourescents are usually troubleshoot by the replace and see method. Not having any replacement parts I took off to the local hdwr store and came back with two new fixtures and lights for cheaper than I could buy parts..

Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Mike Easter"

I really feel that I should make a diagnosis somehow.

What is it with this light. There are only a couple of things that
can be wrong.

From what I have read, you have bought new bulbs and a new ballast.

I have also used working 'old' bulbs from the other fixtures with both
old and new ballast. And I have observed the nature of what was
wrong/dim/dark with the lighting using the old ballast compared with
using the new ballast and they are the same when I use the same old
bulbs which old bulbs light is very similar to the new bulbs light with
the new ballast.

Make sure the make sure the bulbs and the ballast are the same.

Done.

You have two power wires, the black and white, then only about 4 more
wires.

There are two power wires black and white. There are two yellow wires
which go to one end of the fixture and there are two red and two blue
wires which go to the other end of the fixture.

Make sure the wires are going to the correct places, not just by
matching the colors. Then the connections at the sockets the bulbs
fit in could be bad. Also make sure the ballast case is grounded to
the light fixture.

The ballast grounding is from its metal case being screwed up against
the fixture on one end against tight prong/slot on the other end and
metal case length against the metal fixture. However, the fixture and
the ballast are painted, but there are bare metal edges all over the
place. There is no specific ground wire for the ballast to the fixture,
but there is a specific house power ground specifically bolted to the
fixture.

How many wires are comming out of your ballast and what color are
they ?

6 two yellow to one end, 2 red and 2 blue to the other.

If your bulbs are marked raid start, the ballast should have 8 or 9
wires. The green, black and white (standard house colors) and 2 each
of blue, red, yellow.

The ballast does not have a ground wire to the house or even coming out
of the ballast. That grounding depends on the house wire bolted securely
to the metal fixture and the metal ballast housing secured tightly
against the metal fixture over many square inches of metal surfaces.

That was the same condition of the old ballast which worked for 15 years
and I am sure it is the condition of the other two lights.

--
Mike Easter

On 5/3/2012 2:45 PM, Mike Easter wrote:
....

The appearance of the ground in the ceiling power connection is
relatively shiny copper, no corrosion. The bolt and nut are not
corroded. I can't imagine a discontinuity between the ceiling ground and
its connection back to a breaker box ground, nor a breaker box ground
problem. That wiring is off a subpanel inside the house. The location of
these garage lights are a long way from 'outside' - the garage doors are
always closed, no weather gets inside.

Have you actually taken the ground connection loose and checked it or
simply looked at it? Just because it looks good on the surface doesn't
mean there's not a resistance layer between the mating surfaces or a
layer of paint or whatever.

Doesn't say there is, but unless you check you can't rule it out for
absolute certainty. Same is true back to the point of the connections
to the good fixture(s).


Also, the ballast must make good contact for grounding as well. I'd try
a little emery cloth to shine up the contacts and check all connections
for being bright/tight first.

I would like to repeat that the two sides do not perform identically
with the old or the new ballast. One side is almost not lit at all and
what lighting there is, is on about 8" of bulb, while the other side is
about 1/3 or 1/4 as bright as normal and uniformly distributed
throughout the length of the bulb. If I switch the bulbs, the same side,
not the same bulb, is as described.
....

That still sounds very much like the reflectors or a bad ground or
connection or the contacts at the faulty. That with a new ballast the
same symptoms appear (iiuc) pretty much eliminates the ballast altho I
still note the need for it to be well grounded and if there's a problem
there on the fixture side it could well remain for both. Did you make
sure there's not paint or dirt or whatever preventing a good contact or
just toss the new one in where the other one was?

I also don't like the idea of swapping out a ballast from an existing
working ceiling fixture. What I really want is some hard numbers on the
installed ballast which satisfy the expected voltages input and output
and resistance across somewhere on the ballast. I have no way to do
frequency checking of the ballast output.

Well, when you won't do the simplest of easy tests to confirm where the
problem goes, it gets pretty hard to diagnose when you reject both the
chances that there might be a problem w/o actually checking and the
chance to see if the problem follows the ballast or is at the fixture
itself.

--

JIMMIE wrote:

I hadnt used the work bench in my garage for years after building a
shop so when I tried the light over the bench the other day it worked
about like yours. Flourescents are usually troubleshoot by the
replace and see method. Not having any replacement parts I took off
to the local hdwr store and came back with two new fixtures and
lights for cheaper than I could buy parts.

How I came to believe I could replace a ballast to fix a fluorescent:

Once upon a time my 20 y/o owned office had a false ceiling and lots
and lots of 4 bulb ceiling lights that I was responsible for unless I
wanted to call an electrician whenever a light bulb wasn't working, and
I bought fluorescent bulbs by the boxful. In fact, one of those old
boxes is what I'm using now.

Consequently over the years sometimes it was a ballast instead of a bulb
or two, so I became 'accustomed' to occasionally removing and replacing
a ballast without any testing or diagnostic efforts because replacing a
fixture for a bad ballast certainly wasn't practical and it always
worked out.

'All of a sudden' I'm mystified by fluorescent madness.


--
Mike Easter

On 5/3/2012 3:12 PM, Mike Easter wrote:
....

The ballast grounding is from its metal case being screwed up against
the fixture on one end against tight prong/slot on the other end and
metal case length against the metal fixture. However, the fixture and
the ballast are painted, but there are bare metal edges all over the
place. ...

In a case like this I'd scrape off some more paint from both and use
toothed washer to be sure to get bonding through the paint to the base
metal...

....

When did the change occur and has it been a gradual deterioration or a
sudden failing? Again if it doesn't/didn't change characteristics w/
the new ballast it's almost certainly owing to something else, _not_ the
ballast. And, if it was a gradual change that's indicative of a growing
corrosion problem or similar at a connection or the bulb contacts. If
it were a sudden step change that would be like the capacitance problem
w/ a suddenly missing or moved reflector that causes bad starting. But,
that generally is evident by the change in brightness when touch a bulb,
etc., and you say these don't do that...

--


--

dpb wrote:
Mike Easter wrote:
...

The appearance of the ground in the ceiling power connection is
relatively shiny copper, no corrosion. The bolt and nut are not
corroded. I can't imagine a discontinuity between the ceiling ground and
its connection back to a breaker box ground, nor a breaker box ground
problem. That wiring is off a subpanel inside the house. The location of
these garage lights are a long way from 'outside' - the garage doors are
always closed, no weather gets inside.

Have you actually taken the ground connection loose and checked it or
simply looked at it?

I removed the ground when I removed the fixture from the ceiling. I
replaced the ground when I replaced the fixture to the ceiling. I
grabbed and pulled on the ground with about 10# of force the last time I
jiggled everything and rescrewed wire nuts.

Just because it looks good on the surface doesn't mean there's not a
resistance layer between the mating surfaces or a layer of paint or
whatever.

I have only physically 'tested' and eyeballed it; I don't have a knowhow
to test if something is actually grounded electrically.

Doesn't say there is, but unless you check you can't rule it out for
absolute certainty. Same is true back to the point of the connections to
the good fixture(s).


Also, the ballast must make good contact for grounding as well. I'd try
a little emery cloth to shine up the contacts and check all connections
for being bright/tight first.

I would like to repeat that the two sides do not perform identically
with the old or the new ballast. One side is almost not lit at all and
what lighting there is, is on about 8" of bulb, while the other side is
about 1/3 or 1/4 as bright as normal and uniformly distributed
throughout the length of the bulb. If I switch the bulbs, the same side,
not the same bulb, is as described.
...

That still sounds very much like the reflectors or a bad ground or
connection or the contacts at the faulty. That with a new ballast the
same symptoms appear (iiuc) pretty much eliminates the ballast altho I
still note the need for it to be well grounded and if there's a problem
there on the fixture side it could well remain for both. Did you make
sure there's not paint or dirt or whatever preventing a good contact or
just toss the new one in where the other one was?

I wouldn't call it a 'toss'. The new ballast is not as wide as the
older and the metal shape of the ends with the prongs for the slot and
the shape of the 'groove' for the screw are slightly different from the
old. When/After I secured the new ballast to the fixture, I loosened
the screw to be sure that the new ballast was well seated in the slot
and against the fixture and rescrewed it down snugly.

I also don't like the idea of swapping out a ballast from an existing
working ceiling fixture. What I really want is some hard numbers on the
installed ballast which satisfy the expected voltages input and output
and resistance across somewhere on the ballast. I have no way to do
frequency checking of the ballast output.

Well, when you won't do the simplest of easy tests to confirm where the
problem goes, it gets pretty hard to diagnose when you reject both the
chances that there might be a problem w/o actually checking and the
chance to see if the problem follows the ballast or is at the fixture
itself.

I don't call removing the working fixture from the ceiling and cutting
the ballast wires loose to remove it to be easy compared to checking
some voltages and resistance on the existing installation to see if they
meet specs (which I haven't found yet but I'm still looking).

The old/original ballast + wires and 4 tombstones was supplied installed
as an integrated unit to the fixture. If Home Depot had had one just
like that, I would have bought it for the convenience and advantage of
having new tombstones instead of installing the new one with wire nuts.

These fixtures are secured to the ceiling by toggle bolt nuts, so every
time I remove and replace a fixture I lose two toggles. The last time I
bought some more of them I should have bought a package of a dozen if I
had known that I was going to have to be removing the fixture from the
ceiling repetitively :-)


--
Mike Easter

dpb wrote:
Mike Easter wrote:
...

The ballast grounding is from its metal case being screwed up against
the fixture on one end against tight prong/slot on the other end and
metal case length against the metal fixture. However, the fixture and
the ballast are painted, but there are bare metal edges all over the
place. ...

In a case like this I'd scrape off some more paint from both and use
toothed washer to be sure to get bonding through the paint to the base
metal...

That would be easy enough to do (except for the part about losing my
toggles again :-) (back to HD for a dozen or so of them) I should set
up a bench for doing this research, with a grounded plug on one end and
bare wires on the other.

When did the change occur and has it been a gradual deterioration or a
sudden failing?

Gradually over weeks. Now I wish I had paid closer attention; I assumed
a bulb was slowly dying because it was dark on one end.

The light from the fixture, I can't say specifically how the two
different lights evolved over time. It seems that sometime in the past
one bulb was normally lit sometimes. Not so now nor before I removed
the old ballast.

Again if it doesn't/didn't change characteristics w/ the
new ballast it's almost certainly owing to something else, _not_ the
ballast.

You would think; altho' I have swapped/ remove&replaced/ computer parts
for a new bad one.

And, if it was a gradual change that's indicative of a growing
corrosion problem or similar at a connection or the bulb contacts. If it
were a sudden step change that would be like the capacitance problem w/
a suddenly missing or moved reflector that causes bad starting. But,
that generally is evident by the change in brightness when touch a bulb,
etc., and you say these don't do that...

Well, I have retested that observation.

Starting from a 'base' of L side extremely dim very slightly/ barely
lighted on 8" of one end and R side about 1/4 normal brightness
throughout its length, if I grasp the/each bulb, each side improves very
very slightly in brightness, say an increase of 5-10% of its previous
'value' or lumens. If the R bulb were previously 25% of normal, it
might improve to almost 30% of normal.


--
Mike Easter

On Thursday, May 3, 2012 3:32:22 PM UTC-5, Mike Easter wrote:


'All of a sudden' I'm mystified by fluorescent madness.


--
Mike Easter

For people who haven't been there this is maddening. I have replaced 2 ballasts (new) in a two tube fixture and wound-up changing out the entire fixture because it didn't fix the problem.

Can you buy a solid-state ballast and leave the wires long...hook it up...and if it doesn't fix it...take it back?

On 5/3/2012 4:25 PM, Mike Easter wrote:
....

These fixtures are secured to the ceiling by toggle bolt nuts, so every
time I remove and replace a fixture I lose two toggles. The last time I
bought some more of them I should have bought a package of a dozen if I
had known that I was going to have to be removing the fixture from the
ceiling repetitively :-)

Still really haven't answered the question or indicated you took the
action(s) suggested.

Make sure there's bare metal between the two mating pieces not just the
edge of a hole and use some emery and/or find sandpaper and polish off
any possible surface layers.

You indicated in another posting you're using very old tubes; have you
tried a newer tube perchance? Have you tried the above cleaning on the
pins of the tubes to ensure they've not oxidized over the years of
storage? (I have no real clue on aging of fl tubes but given what
appears abnormal situation I'd look for possibly unusual fixes as well
altho it still seems should be relatively straightforward.)

I don't know that you can test the ballast w/ just a VOM; I surely don't
know any spec's to tell you. I judge that if the new and the old act
the same the likelihood it's the ballast itself is quite low -- unless
it is the connection or the power in; I think that's barking up the
wrong tree meself.

W/ all fixtures I've had, I've never had to take one down to swap
ballasts so I don't quite follow why that's such a problem.

--

On Thu, 03 May 2012 12:45:09 -0700, Mike Easter
wrote:

dpb wrote:
Mike Easter wrote:
dpb wrote:
...

I still expect the most likely is the ground isn't what you think it
is (as for how good or the reflector(s) aren't grounded or close
enough to the tube in the bad one).

This is the same ground, big fat ground with the power, which is
securely 'bolted' with a nut onto the fixture that has been working on
the fixture for 15 years. We would have to imagine that something has
'gone wrong' with the ground wire's grounding condition. I don't even
know how to test that.
...

It's not hard to conceive of the ground connection having developed some
corrosion at the fixture end particularly in a garage or even a
connection at the outlet where the fixtures are wired/plugged in.

The appearance of the ground in the ceiling power connection is
relatively shiny copper, no corrosion. The bolt and nut are not
corroded. I can't imagine a discontinuity between the ceiling ground
and its connection back to a breaker box ground, nor a breaker box
ground problem. That wiring is off a subpanel inside the house. The
location of these garage lights are a long way from 'outside' - the
garage doors are always closed, no weather gets inside.

Also, the ballast must make good contact for grounding as well. I'd try
a little emery cloth to shine up the contacts and check all connections
for being bright/tight first.

I would like to repeat that the two sides do not perform identically
with the old or the new ballast. One side is almost not lit at all and
what lighting there is, is on about 8" of bulb, while the other side is
about 1/3 or 1/4 as bright as normal and uniformly distributed
throughout the length of the bulb. If I switch the bulbs, the same
side, not the same bulb, is as described.

Are you sure you have the proper tube designations?

Yes, except that the newer bulbs are 34W and the old bulbs are 40W.

Also, it's possible w/ time the lamp contacts are dirty/loose and/or
have some corrosion as well.

The lamp contacts are clean to appearance and the problem does not
change with twisting the contacts around.

Have you checked the actual supply voltage to be sure there isn't
something wrong w/ the supply--perhaps there's a loose or
high-resistance connection in the circuit itself.

I was going to work on/ measure/ the voltages (and resistance) at the
ballast as soon I found some information beyond my knowing what the
house voltage should be. The voltage at the ceiling fixture in question
is bound to be the same as the other two, they are all on the same circuit.

I think the voltages that can be checked are those of the house current
and also the output of the ballast. Also I think the resistance across
the ballast (somewhere) is supposed to be zero. I'm trying to find some
docs on that.

If there is some kind of ground problem here, I don't know how to
find/prove it. The appearance and the physical security and overall
'beefiness' of the ground are all strong. It looks like a serious ground
of good integrity and strong connection.

I have examined the specs in fine print on the installed ballast and it
is like that of the removed one.

If I had to eat this ballast and disassemble a complete fixture which
costs less than the ballast I bought and would be eating, it would be
necessary for the fixture to have tombstones with slots which match the
ones on my fixture. I don't really like that idea.

I also don't like the idea of swapping out a ballast from an existing
working ceiling fixture. What I really want is some hard numbers on the
installed ballast which satisfy the expected voltages input and output
and resistance across somewhere on the ballast. I have no way to do
frequency checking of the ballast output.

The 34 watt bulbs take a different ballast than the 40 watt bulbs,
don't they? I know I could not get the newfangled 34 watt "green"
bulbs to light reliably with my "legacy" ballast.

"instant start" ballasts have a 600 volt (+/-) opern circuit starting
voltage, and no "filament heat" voltage.

"Rapid Start" ballasts run about 500 volts (give or take) and have
filament heaters - about 1 watt per tube end. (on a T8-32 or F32T8
system).

Programmed start ballasts precisely time and control the filament heat
to extend life when occument sensor systems etc turn the light on and
off a lot.


So, you check voltage from end to end with no bulb installed - 600
volts is instant start - 500 is rapid start. If there is any question
what you have, measure voltage between pins on one socket. If you have
any voltage it is not an instant start, and 500 volts should be
expected end to end. If you have less than 600 and no filament voltage
whatever ballast you have is toast. The filament voltage should be
very close to the same on each end.

Also, instant start systems usually have the tubes in parallel,
while rapid starts are more often in series (and more complex to
follow the circuitry) Parallel wired units have 2 wires of each of 3
colours (usually red, yellow, and blue) while series will only have
(usually) 2 blue and one red - with no yellow.

There is a pdf document available from Philips called
"RT-8010-R03_ABC.pdf" that you should be able to find online by
googling that will tell you all you want to know about ballasts and
flourescent lighting in general.

On Thu, 03 May 2012 13:12:34 -0700, Mike Easter
wrote:

Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Mike Easter"

I really feel that I should make a diagnosis somehow.

What is it with this light. There are only a couple of things that
can be wrong.

From what I have read, you have bought new bulbs and a new ballast.

I have also used working 'old' bulbs from the other fixtures with both
old and new ballast. And I have observed the nature of what was
wrong/dim/dark with the lighting using the old ballast compared with
using the new ballast and they are the same when I use the same old
bulbs which old bulbs light is very similar to the new bulbs light with
the new ballast.

Make sure the make sure the bulbs and the ballast are the same.

Done.

You have two power wires, the black and white, then only about 4 more
wires.

There are two power wires black and white. There are two yellow wires
which go to one end of the fixture and there are two red and two blue
wires which go to the other end of the fixture.

Then you have a "rapid start" ballast and there should be 500 volts
between the yellow and the blue, and between the yellow and the red,
and some low voltage between the two red, the two blues, and the 2
yellows. Checking with the ohmeter and the power off, you should have
close to a short between each coloured pair, and equal and high
resistance between the yellows and the blue and red. If you measure
resistance of the primary (white/black) the secondary resistance
should be something like a minimum of 4 times as high - possibly
higher. If less than 4 times the primary resistance (on a 220 volt
ballast) you have a shorted secondary (most likely, anyway)

Make sure the wires are going to the correct places, not just by
matching the colors. Then the connections at the sockets the bulbs
fit in could be bad. Also make sure the ballast case is grounded to
the light fixture.

The ballast grounding is from its metal case being screwed up against
the fixture on one end against tight prong/slot on the other end and
metal case length against the metal fixture. However, the fixture and
the ballast are painted, but there are bare metal edges all over the
place. There is no specific ground wire for the ballast to the fixture,
but there is a specific house power ground specifically bolted to the
fixture.

MOST ballasts have a bare metal "ring" around where the mounting stud
fits to ensure a good ground connection. Still a bit dodgy in my
opinion - check to be sure the connection is clean and tight - and
also make sure the "reflector" or "trough cover" is installed and that
it also is electrically connected to the main ground through it's
mounting. Loose screws can cause starting problems. Without clean
earth connections you are depending on capacitive linking not only
from the bulb to the reflector/cover/sheild, but from there to the
case and from the ballast to the case. The capacitance soon becomes
way too high to be effective.
How many wires are comming out of your ballast and what color are
they ?

6 two yellow to one end, 2 red and 2 blue to the other.

If your bulbs are marked raid start, the ballast should have 8 or 9
wires. The green, black and white (standard house colors) and 2 each
of blue, red, yellow.

The ballast does not have a ground wire to the house or even coming out
of the ballast. That grounding depends on the house wire bolted securely
to the metal fixture and the metal ballast housing secured tightly
against the metal fixture over many square inches of metal surfaces.

That was the same condition of the old ballast which worked for 15 years
and I am sure it is the condition of the other two lights.

On Thu, 03 May 2012 13:32:22 -0700, Mike Easter
wrote:

JIMMIE wrote:

I hadnt used the work bench in my garage for years after building a
shop so when I tried the light over the bench the other day it worked
about like yours. Flourescents are usually troubleshoot by the
replace and see method. Not having any replacement parts I took off
to the local hdwr store and came back with two new fixtures and
lights for cheaper than I could buy parts.

How I came to believe I could replace a ballast to fix a fluorescent:

Once upon a time my 20 y/o owned office had a false ceiling and lots
and lots of 4 bulb ceiling lights that I was responsible for unless I
wanted to call an electrician whenever a light bulb wasn't working, and
I bought fluorescent bulbs by the boxful. In fact, one of those old
boxes is what I'm using now.

Consequently over the years sometimes it was a ballast instead of a bulb
or two, so I became 'accustomed' to occasionally removing and replacing
a ballast without any testing or diagnostic efforts because replacing a
fixture for a bad ballast certainly wasn't practical and it always
worked out.

'All of a sudden' I'm mystified by fluorescent madness.
"All of a sudden" you are also throwing the "china syndrome" into
the mix. Infant mortality rates for electrical and electronic devices
has gone up almost by an order of magnatude over the last 5 or 10
years. A known working used device is the best way to eliminate a bad
device as a possibility - using an unknown new device as a benchmark
only tells you if the old one IS DEFINITELY bad if the new one is good
and solves the problem. If replacing with an unproven new device does
not solve the problem you still don't know if the new one, the old
one, or both are defective (or not). And 2 new ones out of the same
batch only increase your chances by a little less than twice.

On 5/4/2012 10:24 AM, bud-- wrote:
On 5/3/2012 2:24 PM, dpb wrote:
....

Have you actually taken the ground connection loose and checked it or
simply looked at it? Just because it looks good on the surface doesn't
mean there's not a resistance layer between the mating surfaces or a
layer of paint or whatever.
....

A grounded surface near the lamps is used to start the tubes. As far as
I know a ground is not needed for the tube operation once the tube has
started. Sounds like all the tubes are operating (but not bright enough).


I don't remember that the OP has verified that the sockets make good
contact with the pins and that the wires make good contact with the
sockets (for instance that the socket doesn't 'contact' insulation
instead of wire).

As I wrote previously, a darkened end likely indicates that the filament
at that end is not working (burned out or not receiving power).


True, but that ground reference is to the power ground.

Just as OP hasn't indicated that he has really verified any of the
suggestions made by anybody he hasn't indicated just what other than
replace the ballast and reinstall the light he's actually done to ensure
all the possible areas of poor connections whether in supply, grounds or
sockets/pins have been addressed.

I agree it's almost got to be one (or more) poor connection(s)
somewhere; it seems highly unlikely that the ballast itself is the
problem given that a new one and old one behave the same.

--

On 5/3/2012 2:24 PM, dpb wrote:
On 5/3/2012 2:45 PM, Mike Easter wrote:
...

The appearance of the ground in the ceiling power connection is
relatively shiny copper, no corrosion. The bolt and nut are not
corroded. I can't imagine a discontinuity between the ceiling ground and
its connection back to a breaker box ground, nor a breaker box ground
problem. That wiring is off a subpanel inside the house. The location of
these garage lights are a long way from 'outside' - the garage doors are
always closed, no weather gets inside.

Have you actually taken the ground connection loose and checked it or
simply looked at it? Just because it looks good on the surface doesn't
mean there's not a resistance layer between the mating surfaces or a
layer of paint or whatever.

Doesn't say there is, but unless you check you can't rule it out for
absolute certainty. Same is true back to the point of the connections to
the good fixture(s).


A grounded surface near the lamps is used to start the tubes. As far as
I know a ground is not needed for the tube operation once the tube has
started. Sounds like all the tubes are operating (but not bright enough).


I don't remember that the OP has verified that the sockets make good
contact with the pins and that the wires make good contact with the
sockets (for instance that the socket doesn't 'contact' insulation
instead of wire).

As I wrote previously, a darkened end likely indicates that the filament
at that end is not working (burned out or not receiving power).

--
bud--

dpb wrote:
Mike Easter wrote:

These fixtures are secured to the ceiling by toggle bolt nuts, so every
time I remove and replace a fixture I lose two toggles.

W/ all fixtures I've had, I've never had to take one down to swap
ballasts so I don't quite follow why that's such a problem.

The original design of the ceiling fixture was to affix the ballast to
the fixture with a screw/bolt on the top side against the ceiling and a
smooth round 'nut' (I don't know the name of that kind of fastener) on
the down side exposed after the enclosure for the wires is removed. I
didn't change that design/fastener (yet), so one has to remove the
ballast by removing a bolt from the side of the fixture against the ceiling.

In addition to that inconvenience, the screws for the toggle nuts
securing the fixture to the ceiling are on the other side of an
enclosure for the tombstones, so both of those enclosures need to be
removed to remove the fixture to remove the ballast. The enclosures are
snap-in, so the sides of the fixture need to be spread apart to snap
them out; which would be easy in the middle of the fixture's length, but
of course this prying is on the ends where the metal is joined, so it
doesn't want to spread there.

This fixture does not have a reflector.

In any case, I have more toggles and the fixture is off the ceiling
again so that I can not only bench test it down instead of on the
ceiling, but I can also remove the new ballast and replace it (see
below/later post) and I also now have the ability to connect the ceiling
fixture on the bench to test it for working condition.


--
Mike Easter

On 5/4/2012 5:42 PM, Mike Easter wrote:
....

The original design of the ceiling fixture was to affix the ballast to
the fixture with a screw/bolt on the top side against the ceiling and a
smooth round 'nut' (I don't know the name of that kind of fastener) on
,,,

In addition to that inconvenience, ....

[tales of woe sorry-ass design of fixture elided for brevity]

Dang, sounds like a reason to just replace the fixture for that reason
alone... (sorta')

In any case, I have more toggles and the fixture is off the ceiling
again so that I can not only bench test it down...

That is good...

--

On 5/4/2012 3:48 PM, dpb wrote:
On 5/4/2012 5:42 PM, Mike Easter wrote:
...

The original design of the ceiling fixture was to affix the ballast to
the fixture with a screw/bolt on the top side against the ceiling and a
smooth round 'nut' (I don't know the name of that kind of fastener) on
,,,

In addition to that inconvenience, ....

[tales of woe sorry-ass design of fixture elided for brevity]

Dang, sounds like a reason to just replace the fixture for that reason
alone... (sorta')

In any case, I have more toggles and the fixture is off the ceiling
again so that I can not only bench test it down...

That is good...

--

move it over a few inches and screw it into a rafter?