What realiable good quality central A/C brands are sold directly to
homeowners and available for DIY installation? Can I buy any of them
online?

On 4/28/2012 10:10 AM, ls02 wrote:
What realiable good quality central A/C brands are sold directly to
homeowners and available for DIY installation?

Can I buy any of them online?

http://www.acwholesalers.com/
http://ecomfort.com/index.php

"ls02" wrote in message
...
What realiable good quality central A/C brands are sold directly to
homeowners and available for DIY installation? Can I buy any of them
online?

Check eBay....there are many sellers on there with tons of feedback you can
review. A proper installation is much more important than who the
manufacturer is.....

On 4/29/2012 12:54 AM, SRN wrote:
"ls02" wrote in message
...
What realiable good quality central A/C brands are sold directly to
homeowners and available for DIY installation? Can I buy any of them
online?

Check eBay....there are many sellers on there with tons of feedback you can
review. A proper installation is much more important than who the
manufacturer is.....



How true, I've seen inexpensive mid efficiency properly installed
Goodman systems outlast and outperform improperly installed high
efficiency American Standard and Trane systems. It can make you mad
like seeing a gasoline fueled Bentley blowing smoke out the tailpipe
and Bondo all over the body, not located in The Middle East. ^_^

TDD

On Jul 16, 10:46*pm, The Daring Dufas the-daring-du...@stinky-
finger.net wrote:
On 4/29/2012 12:54 AM, SRN wrote:

"ls02" wrote in message
...
What realiable good quality central A/C brands are sold directly to
homeowners and available for DIY installation? Can I buy any of them
online?

Check eBay....there are many sellers on there with tons of feedback you can
review. A proper installation is much more important than who the
manufacturer is.....

How true, I've seen inexpensive mid efficiency properly installed
Goodman systems outlast and outperform improperly installed high
efficiency American Standard and Trane systems. It can make you mad
like seeing a gasoline fueled Bentley blowing smoke out the tailpipe
and Bondo all over the body, not located in The Middle East. ^_^

TDD

I've only seen Rheem and Goodman offered for sale
by regular online stores. Be aware of warranty issues,
as you may not have the same or any warranty as if you
bought it and had it installed from a local dealer.

On Jul 17, 8:20*am, "
wrote:
On Jul 16, 10:46*pm, The Daring Dufas the-daring-du...@stinky-





finger.net wrote:
On 4/29/2012 12:54 AM, SRN wrote:

"ls02" wrote in message
....
What realiable good quality central A/C brands are sold directly to
homeowners and available for DIY installation? Can I buy any of them
online?

Check eBay....there are many sellers on there with tons of feedback you can
review. A proper installation is much more important than who the
manufacturer is.....

How true, I've seen inexpensive mid efficiency properly installed
Goodman systems outlast and outperform improperly installed high
efficiency American Standard and Trane systems. It can make you mad
like seeing a gasoline fueled Bentley blowing smoke out the tailpipe
and Bondo all over the body, not located in The Middle East. ^_^

TDD

I've only seen Rheem and Goodman offered for sale
by regular online stores. *Be aware of warranty issues,
as you may not have the same or any warranty as if you
bought it and had it installed from a local dealer.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Goodman is the easiest to get your hands on without a contractors
license. Carrier and Trane both control their wholesalers pretty
tightly. Goodman is actually a decent product these days. I don't
know about the r410a but you can silver solder r22 systems using
propane instead of brazing them and they will hold up just fine.
While it is still a good idea to purge with nitrogen it's not as
critical with propane as it is when brazing. You are not going to
produce as much copper oxide inside the line with silver solder. A
vacuum pump is still a pretty good idea though. Some of the old guys
did used to charge by cracking open the low side to the atmosphere and
letting the refrigerant purge the line but that's sort of guesswork
and likely exceeds the de minimus release rules as well. And a set of
guages is pretty much a must. Though the other old trick I heard of
was charge using vapor until the low line feels like a beer just out
of the fridge. If your plan is to get a pro to do the start up after
you do the install find the pro willing to do that before you embark.
Not many are.

On Jul 17, 3:05*pm, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jul 17, 8:20*am, "
wrote:





On Jul 16, 10:46*pm, The Daring Dufas the-daring-du...@stinky-

finger.net wrote:
On 4/29/2012 12:54 AM, SRN wrote:

"ls02" wrote in message
...
What realiable good quality central A/C brands are sold directly to
homeowners and available for DIY installation? Can I buy any of them
online?

Check eBay....there are many sellers on there with tons of feedback you can
review. A proper installation is much more important than who the
manufacturer is.....

How true, I've seen inexpensive mid efficiency properly installed
Goodman systems outlast and outperform improperly installed high
efficiency American Standard and Trane systems. It can make you mad
like seeing a gasoline fueled Bentley blowing smoke out the tailpipe
and Bondo all over the body, not located in The Middle East. ^_^

TDD

I've only seen Rheem and Goodman offered for sale
by regular online stores. *Be aware of warranty issues,
as you may not have the same or any warranty as if you
bought it and had it installed from a local dealer.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Goodman is the easiest to get your hands on without a contractors
license. *Carrier and Trane both control their wholesalers pretty
tightly. *Goodman is actually a decent product these days. *I don't
know about the r410a but you can silver solder r22 systems using
propane instead of brazing them and they will hold up just fine.

Yes, Harris Silverbrite 8 can be used.


While it is still a good idea to purge with nitrogen it's not as
critical with propane as it is when brazing. *You are not going to
produce as much copper oxide inside the line with silver solder.

That is true too. As long as you're good at soldering
and you don't overheat the joint the probability of
forming a lot of crud inside is low. But how lucky do
you feel compared to the cost of some nitrogen?



*A
vacuum pump is still a pretty good idea though.

Good idea? It's essential.



*Some of the old guys
did used to charge by cracking open the low side to the atmosphere and
letting the refrigerant purge the line but that's sort of guesswork
and likely exceeds the de minimus release rules as well.

That's for sure. Those old buys were hacks. Gases don't just go in
and come out like a sausage. They mix.
Moisture inside the lines boils off in a vacuum. With
the bleed method above, it stays in the brand new
system. And any contamination is apparently worse in the case of
R410A systems too.



And a set of
guages is pretty much a must. *Though the other old trick I heard of
was charge using vapor until the low line feels like a beer just out
of the fridge.

That trick is another hack.


*If your plan is to get a pro to do the start up after
you do the install find the pro willing to do that before you embark.
Not many are.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Jul 17, 4:46*pm, "
wrote:
On Jul 17, 3:05*pm, jamesgangnc wrote:





On Jul 17, 8:20*am, "
wrote:

On Jul 16, 10:46*pm, The Daring Dufas the-daring-du...@stinky-

finger.net wrote:
On 4/29/2012 12:54 AM, SRN wrote:

"ls02" wrote in message
...
What realiable good quality central A/C brands are sold directly to
homeowners and available for DIY installation? Can I buy any of them
online?

Check eBay....there are many sellers on there with tons of feedback you can
review. A proper installation is much more important than who the
manufacturer is.....

How true, I've seen inexpensive mid efficiency properly installed
Goodman systems outlast and outperform improperly installed high
efficiency American Standard and Trane systems. It can make you mad
like seeing a gasoline fueled Bentley blowing smoke out the tailpipe
and Bondo all over the body, not located in The Middle East. ^_^

TDD

I've only seen Rheem and Goodman offered for sale
by regular online stores. *Be aware of warranty issues,
as you may not have the same or any warranty as if you
bought it and had it installed from a local dealer.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Goodman is the easiest to get your hands on without a contractors
license. *Carrier and Trane both control their wholesalers pretty
tightly. *Goodman is actually a decent product these days. *I don't
know about the r410a but you can silver solder r22 systems using
propane instead of brazing them and they will hold up just fine.

Yes, Harris Silverbrite 8 can be used.

While it is still a good idea to purge with nitrogen it's not as
critical with propane as it is when brazing. *You are not going to
produce as much copper oxide inside the line with silver solder.

That is true too. *As long as you're good at soldering
and you don't overheat the joint the probability of
forming a lot of crud inside is low. *But how lucky do
you feel compared to the cost of some nitrogen?

*A

vacuum pump is still a pretty good idea though.

Good idea? *It's essential.

*Some of the old guys

did used to charge by cracking open the low side to the atmosphere and
letting the refrigerant purge the line but that's sort of guesswork
and likely exceeds the de minimus release rules as well.

That's for sure. *Those old buys were hacks. *Gases don't just go in
and come out like a sausage. *They mix.
Moisture inside the lines boils off in a vacuum. *With
the bleed method above, it stays in the brand new
system. * *And any contamination is apparently worse in the case of
R410A systems too.

And a set of

guages is pretty much a must. *Though the other old trick I heard of
was charge using vapor until the low line feels like a beer just out
of the fridge.

That trick is another hack.

*If your plan is to get a pro to do the start up after



you do the install find the pro willing to do that before you embark.
Not many are.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It's not so much the cost of nitrogen for the diy'er as it is access
to the various pieces of equipment. Sure it's 50c worth of nitrogen.
But you have to have a nitrogen tank, a regulator, and a line. Same
issue with the rest of it. Vacuum pump costs money. Gauges cost
money. Would I do it without gauges, no.

On the other hand the systems aren't as "fragile" as the hvac techs
try to make it sound either. Put a filter/dryer in the line and what
little moisture there is a factory pressure sealed A coil and new
lineset is pretty much taken care of. And on a basic system that is
using a fixed piston the charge is only "perfect" at one operating
condition. At the rest it's a compromise anyway.

On Jul 17, 5:06*pm, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jul 17, 4:46*pm, "
wrote:





On Jul 17, 3:05*pm, jamesgangnc wrote:

On Jul 17, 8:20*am, "
wrote:

On Jul 16, 10:46*pm, The Daring Dufas the-daring-du...@stinky-

finger.net wrote:
On 4/29/2012 12:54 AM, SRN wrote:

"ls02" wrote in message
...
What realiable good quality central A/C brands are sold directly to
homeowners and available for DIY installation? Can I buy any of them
online?

Check eBay....there are many sellers on there with tons of feedback you can
review. A proper installation is much more important than who the
manufacturer is.....

How true, I've seen inexpensive mid efficiency properly installed
Goodman systems outlast and outperform improperly installed high
efficiency American Standard and Trane systems. It can make you mad
like seeing a gasoline fueled Bentley blowing smoke out the tailpipe
and Bondo all over the body, not located in The Middle East. ^_^

TDD

I've only seen Rheem and Goodman offered for sale
by regular online stores. *Be aware of warranty issues,
as you may not have the same or any warranty as if you
bought it and had it installed from a local dealer.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Goodman is the easiest to get your hands on without a contractors
license. *Carrier and Trane both control their wholesalers pretty
tightly. *Goodman is actually a decent product these days. *I don't
know about the r410a but you can silver solder r22 systems using
propane instead of brazing them and they will hold up just fine.

Yes, Harris Silverbrite 8 can be used.

While it is still a good idea to purge with nitrogen it's not as
critical with propane as it is when brazing. *You are not going to
produce as much copper oxide inside the line with silver solder.

That is true too. *As long as you're good at soldering
and you don't overheat the joint the probability of
forming a lot of crud inside is low. *But how lucky do
you feel compared to the cost of some nitrogen?

*A

vacuum pump is still a pretty good idea though.

Good idea? *It's essential.

*Some of the old guys

did used to charge by cracking open the low side to the atmosphere and
letting the refrigerant purge the line but that's sort of guesswork
and likely exceeds the de minimus release rules as well.

That's for sure. *Those old buys were hacks. *Gases don't just go in
and come out like a sausage. *They mix.
Moisture inside the lines boils off in a vacuum. *With
the bleed method above, it stays in the brand new
system. * *And any contamination is apparently worse in the case of
R410A systems too.

And a set of

guages is pretty much a must. *Though the other old trick I heard of
was charge using vapor until the low line feels like a beer just out
of the fridge.

That trick is another hack.

*If your plan is to get a pro to do the start up after

you do the install find the pro willing to do that before you embark.
Not many are.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It's not so much the cost of nitrogen for the diy'er as it is access
to the various pieces of equipment. *Sure it's 50c worth of nitrogen.
But you have to have a nitrogen tank, a regulator, and a line. *Same
issue with the rest of it. *Vacuum pump costs money. *Gauges cost
money. *Would I do it without gauges, no.

Yeah, they cost money, but then so too does that
$2500 worth of AC equipment the guy just bought
which can be ruined by some dumb ass doing a
hack job.




On the other hand the systems aren't as "fragile" as the hvac techs
try to make it sound either. *Put a filter/dryer in the line and what
little moisture there is a factory pressure sealed A coil and new
lineset is pretty much taken care of. *And on a basic system that is
using a fixed piston the charge is only "perfect" at one operating
condition. *At the rest it's a compromise anyway.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The equipment manufacturers, who write the install
directions would disagree with you. The instructions
I have seen all stress the importance of pulling a
proper vacuum, especially for R410 systems. And
you can't legally use refrigerant to purge it anyway.
In fact, the guy asking for recommendations can't
do that part of the install legally at all, unless he has
EPA certification.

As for saying the correct charge as specified by the
manufacturer is only "perfect" at
one operating condition, that's like saying the timing
is only perfect at one condition on an internal combustion
engine, so it's OK to just wing it......

On 7/17/2012 7:20 AM, wrote:
On Jul 16, 10:46 pm, The Daring Dufas the-daring-du...@stinky-
finger.net wrote:
On 4/29/2012 12:54 AM, SRN wrote:

"ls02" wrote in message
...
What realiable good quality central A/C brands are sold directly to
homeowners and available for DIY installation? Can I buy any of them
online?

Check eBay....there are many sellers on there with tons of feedback you can
review. A proper installation is much more important than who the
manufacturer is.....

How true, I've seen inexpensive mid efficiency properly installed
Goodman systems outlast and outperform improperly installed high
efficiency American Standard and Trane systems. It can make you mad
like seeing a gasoline fueled Bentley blowing smoke out the tailpipe
and Bondo all over the body, not located in The Middle East. ^_^

TDD

I've only seen Rheem and Goodman offered for sale
by regular online stores. Be aware of warranty issues,
as you may not have the same or any warranty as if you
bought it and had it installed from a local dealer.


I have an acquaintance who's an American Standard dealer. He gets a
premium price for that equipment and it's good stuff which he installs
correctly. I imagine Trane and American Standard are strict with their
distributors and dealers. It's my understanding that A.S. owns Trane
and that internal parts are interchangeable. I was on the roof of a
drugstore in Tupelo, MS today installing an interface control board so
a standard thermostat would control that particular model unit that had
come from the factory setup to only work with a proprietary Trane
temperature controller. The conversion was necessary so a web based
energy management system could be used to remotely control and monitor
the HVAC system. At least it wasn't 105°F like it was a few weeks ago
when I made the 150 mile trip there. ^_^

TDD

Oy, Trane. What an experience.

The heat came north, it was 95F and humid, today.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
news:ju50f4

I have an acquaintance who's an American Standard dealer. He gets a
premium price for that equipment and it's good stuff which he installs
correctly. I imagine Trane and American Standard are strict with their
distributors and dealers. It's my understanding that A.S. owns Trane
and that internal parts are interchangeable. I was on the roof of a
drugstore in Tupelo, MS today installing an interface control board so
a standard thermostat would control that particular model unit that had
come from the factory setup to only work with a proprietary Trane
temperature controller. The conversion was necessary so a web based
energy management system could be used to remotely control and monitor
the HVAC system. At least it wasn't 105°F like it was a few weeks ago
when I made the 150 mile trip there. ^_^

TDD

On 7/17/2012 8:39 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Oy, Trane. What an experience.

The heat came north, it was 95F and humid, today.


Here in Alabamastan the humidity hits you like a slap in the face when
you walk out of an air conditioned building. I swear I can feel more
resistance when I walk through the air during periods of high humidity.
It could just be a mater of warped perception but darned if it feels
real. ^_^

TDD

When I was a student pilot, we were told that hot humid air is less dense.
Makes it much more dificult to take an air plane off the ground. Cold dry
air, is much easier for take off.

Perhaps walking is a different matter than launching an aircraft?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
news:ju58db$n93

Here in Alabamastan the humidity hits you like a slap in the face when
you walk out of an air conditioned building. I swear I can feel more
resistance when I walk through the air during periods of high humidity.
It could just be a mater of warped perception but darned if it feels
real. ^_^

TDD

"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

When I was a student pilot, we were told that hot humid air is less dense.
Makes it much more dificult to take an air plane off the ground. Cold dry
air, is much easier for take off

Temperature is far more critical than humidity...

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 08:33:55 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

When I was a student pilot, we were told that hot humid air is less dense.
Makes it much more dificult to take an air plane off the ground. Cold dry
air, is much easier for take off.

Perhaps walking is a different matter than launching an aircraft?

No, it's the same issue but you're sensing it a bit differently. Moist air is
less dense than dry air (H20 has a molecular weight of 18, where O2/N2 is
30ish). Humid air being less dense, the airplane has less lift. The same is
true of you. The air is less buoyant (you're displacing less mass of air), so
heavier. At the same time, your cooling system doesn't work as well
(evaporation is reduced).

On 7/18/2012 8:08 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 08:33:55 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

When I was a student pilot, we were told that hot humid air is less dense.
Makes it much more dificult to take an air plane off the ground. Cold dry
air, is much easier for take off.

Perhaps walking is a different matter than launching an aircraft?

No, it's the same issue but you're sensing it a bit differently. Moist air is
less dense than dry air (H20 has a molecular weight of 18, where O2/N2 is
30ish). Humid air being less dense, the airplane has less lift. The same is
true of you. The air is less buoyant (you're displacing less mass of air), so
heavier. At the same time, your cooling system doesn't work as well
(evaporation is reduced).


I wish people could more easily sense when I'm being fecesious[sic]. ^_^

TDD

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 10:52:16 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 7/18/2012 8:08 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 08:33:55 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

When I was a student pilot, we were told that hot humid air is less dense.
Makes it much more dificult to take an air plane off the ground. Cold dry
air, is much easier for take off.

Perhaps walking is a different matter than launching an aircraft?

No, it's the same issue but you're sensing it a bit differently. Moist air is
less dense than dry air (H20 has a molecular weight of 18, where O2/N2 is
30ish). Humid air being less dense, the airplane has less lift. The same is
true of you. The air is less buoyant (you're displacing less mass of air), so
heavier. At the same time, your cooling system doesn't work as well
(evaporation is reduced).


I wish people could more easily sense when I'm being fecesious[sic]. ^_^

What, when you go outside from an air conditioned building, the Alabamastani
Summer air doesn't hit you like a slap in the face? You were just kiddin'?

On 7/18/2012 1:39 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 10:52:16 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 7/18/2012 8:08 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 08:33:55 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

When I was a student pilot, we were told that hot humid air is less dense.
Makes it much more dificult to take an air plane off the ground. Cold dry
air, is much easier for take off.

Perhaps walking is a different matter than launching an aircraft?

No, it's the same issue but you're sensing it a bit differently. Moist air is
less dense than dry air (H20 has a molecular weight of 18, where O2/N2 is
30ish). Humid air being less dense, the airplane has less lift. The same is
true of you. The air is less buoyant (you're displacing less mass of air), so
heavier. At the same time, your cooling system doesn't work as well
(evaporation is reduced).


I wish people could more easily sense when I'm being fecesious[sic]. ^_^

What, when you go outside from an air conditioned building, the Alabamastani
Summer air doesn't hit you like a slap in the face? You were just kiddin'?


You can definitely feel it, it can take your breath away. High humidity
makes me miserable but I endure it all the time. I sweat like a
thunderstorm when working out in the heemidity (new word I made up).
I was working on some controls yesterday and the sweat was dripping from
the tips of my elbows like a leaking faucet. O_o

TDD

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 14:16:03 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 7/18/2012 1:39 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 10:52:16 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 7/18/2012 8:08 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 08:33:55 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

When I was a student pilot, we were told that hot humid air is less dense.
Makes it much more dificult to take an air plane off the ground. Cold dry
air, is much easier for take off.

Perhaps walking is a different matter than launching an aircraft?

No, it's the same issue but you're sensing it a bit differently. Moist air is
less dense than dry air (H20 has a molecular weight of 18, where O2/N2 is
30ish). Humid air being less dense, the airplane has less lift. The same is
true of you. The air is less buoyant (you're displacing less mass of air), so
heavier. At the same time, your cooling system doesn't work as well
(evaporation is reduced).


I wish people could more easily sense when I'm being fecesious[sic]. ^_^

What, when you go outside from an air conditioned building, the Alabamastani
Summer air doesn't hit you like a slap in the face? You were just kiddin'?


You can definitely feel it, it can take your breath away. High humidity
makes me miserable but I endure it all the time. I sweat like a
thunderstorm when working out in the heemidity (new word I made up).
I was working on some controls yesterday and the sweat was dripping from
the tips of my elbows like a leaking faucet. O_o

I was responding to your statement implying that you weren't serious. I can
stick my head out the door and feel the furnace too (I'm just a hundred miles
to the East).

On 7/18/2012 5:45 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 14:16:03 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 7/18/2012 1:39 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 10:52:16 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 7/18/2012 8:08 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 08:33:55 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

When I was a student pilot, we were told that hot humid air is less dense.
Makes it much more dificult to take an air plane off the ground. Cold dry
air, is much easier for take off.

Perhaps walking is a different matter than launching an aircraft?

No, it's the same issue but you're sensing it a bit differently. Moist air is
less dense than dry air (H20 has a molecular weight of 18, where O2/N2 is
30ish). Humid air being less dense, the airplane has less lift. The same is
true of you. The air is less buoyant (you're displacing less mass of air), so
heavier. At the same time, your cooling system doesn't work as well
(evaporation is reduced).


I wish people could more easily sense when I'm being fecesious[sic]. ^_^

What, when you go outside from an air conditioned building, the Alabamastani
Summer air doesn't hit you like a slap in the face? You were just kiddin'?


You can definitely feel it, it can take your breath away. High humidity
makes me miserable but I endure it all the time. I sweat like a
thunderstorm when working out in the heemidity (new word I made up).
I was working on some controls yesterday and the sweat was dripping from
the tips of my elbows like a leaking faucet. O_o

I was responding to your statement implying that you weren't serious. I can
stick my head out the door and feel the furnace too (I'm just a hundred miles
to the East).


Perhaps exaggerating/embellishing like a fish story. ^_^

TDD

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 18:25:28 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 7/18/2012 5:45 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 14:16:03 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 7/18/2012 1:39 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 10:52:16 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 7/18/2012 8:08 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 08:33:55 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

When I was a student pilot, we were told that hot humid air is less dense.
Makes it much more dificult to take an air plane off the ground. Cold dry
air, is much easier for take off.

Perhaps walking is a different matter than launching an aircraft?

No, it's the same issue but you're sensing it a bit differently. Moist air is
less dense than dry air (H20 has a molecular weight of 18, where O2/N2 is
30ish). Humid air being less dense, the airplane has less lift. The same is
true of you. The air is less buoyant (you're displacing less mass of air), so
heavier. At the same time, your cooling system doesn't work as well
(evaporation is reduced).


I wish people could more easily sense when I'm being fecesious[sic]. ^_^

What, when you go outside from an air conditioned building, the Alabamastani
Summer air doesn't hit you like a slap in the face? You were just kiddin'?


You can definitely feel it, it can take your breath away. High humidity
makes me miserable but I endure it all the time. I sweat like a
thunderstorm when working out in the heemidity (new word I made up).
I was working on some controls yesterday and the sweat was dripping from
the tips of my elbows like a leaking faucet. O_o

I was responding to your statement implying that you weren't serious. I can
stick my head out the door and feel the furnace too (I'm just a hundred miles
to the East).


Perhaps exaggerating/embellishing like a fish story. ^_^

Now, now. It's not *that* humid.

On Jul 17, 6:45*pm, "
wrote:
On Jul 17, 5:06*pm, jamesgangnc wrote:





On Jul 17, 4:46*pm, "
wrote:

On Jul 17, 3:05*pm, jamesgangnc wrote:

On Jul 17, 8:20*am, "
wrote:

On Jul 16, 10:46*pm, The Daring Dufas the-daring-du...@stinky-

finger.net wrote:
On 4/29/2012 12:54 AM, SRN wrote:

"ls02" wrote in message
...
What realiable good quality central A/C brands are sold directly to
homeowners and available for DIY installation? Can I buy any of them
online?

Check eBay....there are many sellers on there with tons of feedback you can
review. A proper installation is much more important than who the
manufacturer is.....

How true, I've seen inexpensive mid efficiency properly installed
Goodman systems outlast and outperform improperly installed high
efficiency American Standard and Trane systems. It can make you mad
like seeing a gasoline fueled Bentley blowing smoke out the tailpipe
and Bondo all over the body, not located in The Middle East. ^_^

TDD

I've only seen Rheem and Goodman offered for sale
by regular online stores. *Be aware of warranty issues,
as you may not have the same or any warranty as if you
bought it and had it installed from a local dealer.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Goodman is the easiest to get your hands on without a contractors
license. *Carrier and Trane both control their wholesalers pretty
tightly. *Goodman is actually a decent product these days. *I don't
know about the r410a but you can silver solder r22 systems using
propane instead of brazing them and they will hold up just fine.

Yes, Harris Silverbrite 8 can be used.

While it is still a good idea to purge with nitrogen it's not as
critical with propane as it is when brazing. *You are not going to
produce as much copper oxide inside the line with silver solder.

That is true too. *As long as you're good at soldering
and you don't overheat the joint the probability of
forming a lot of crud inside is low. *But how lucky do
you feel compared to the cost of some nitrogen?

*A

vacuum pump is still a pretty good idea though.

Good idea? *It's essential.

*Some of the old guys

did used to charge by cracking open the low side to the atmosphere and
letting the refrigerant purge the line but that's sort of guesswork
and likely exceeds the de minimus release rules as well.

That's for sure. *Those old buys were hacks. *Gases don't just go in
and come out like a sausage. *They mix.
Moisture inside the lines boils off in a vacuum. *With
the bleed method above, it stays in the brand new
system. * *And any contamination is apparently worse in the case of
R410A systems too.

And a set of

guages is pretty much a must. *Though the other old trick I heard of
was charge using vapor until the low line feels like a beer just out
of the fridge.

That trick is another hack.

*If your plan is to get a pro to do the start up after

you do the install find the pro willing to do that before you embark.
Not many are.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It's not so much the cost of nitrogen for the diy'er as it is access
to the various pieces of equipment. *Sure it's 50c worth of nitrogen.
But you have to have a nitrogen tank, a regulator, and a line. *Same
issue with the rest of it. *Vacuum pump costs money. *Gauges cost
money. *Would I do it without gauges, no.

Yeah, they cost money, but then so too does that
$2500 worth of AC equipment the guy just bought
which can be ruined by some dumb ass doing a
hack job.



On the other hand the systems aren't as "fragile" as the hvac techs
try to make it sound either. *Put a filter/dryer in the line and what
little moisture there is a factory pressure sealed A coil and new
lineset is pretty much taken care of. *And on a basic system that is
using a fixed piston the charge is only "perfect" at one operating
condition. *At the rest it's a compromise anyway.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The equipment manufacturers, who write the install
directions would disagree with you. The instructions
I have seen all stress the importance of pulling a
proper vacuum, especially for R410 systems. *And
you can't legally use refrigerant to purge it anyway.
In fact, the guy asking for recommendations can't
do that part of the install legally at all, unless he has
EPA certification.

As for saying the correct charge as specified by the
manufacturer is only "perfect" at
one operating condition, that's like saying the timing
is only perfect at one condition on an internal combustion
engine, so it's OK to just wing it......- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm not saying it's not better to try to install the system with the
most accurate charge possible. I'm just saying there is not as much
consequence to being a bit off as some people claim. Particularly
hvac techs that want to make it seem like installing a basic split
system is interplanetary rocket science. There are a whole lot of
residental systems out there running at less than perfect charges.
And most of them will still run their normal life expectancy. Might
cost a few dollars more a month to run.

On Jul 19, 10:32*am, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jul 17, 6:45*pm, "
wrote:





On Jul 17, 5:06*pm, jamesgangnc wrote:

On Jul 17, 4:46*pm, "
wrote:

On Jul 17, 3:05*pm, jamesgangnc wrote:

On Jul 17, 8:20*am, "
wrote:

On Jul 16, 10:46*pm, The Daring Dufas the-daring-du...@stinky-

finger.net wrote:
On 4/29/2012 12:54 AM, SRN wrote:

"ls02" wrote in message
...
What realiable good quality central A/C brands are sold directly to
homeowners and available for DIY installation? Can I buy any of them
online?

Check eBay....there are many sellers on there with tons of feedback you can
review. A proper installation is much more important than who the
manufacturer is.....

How true, I've seen inexpensive mid efficiency properly installed
Goodman systems outlast and outperform improperly installed high
efficiency American Standard and Trane systems. It can make you mad
like seeing a gasoline fueled Bentley blowing smoke out the tailpipe
and Bondo all over the body, not located in The Middle East. ^_^

TDD

I've only seen Rheem and Goodman offered for sale
by regular online stores. *Be aware of warranty issues,
as you may not have the same or any warranty as if you
bought it and had it installed from a local dealer.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Goodman is the easiest to get your hands on without a contractors
license. *Carrier and Trane both control their wholesalers pretty
tightly. *Goodman is actually a decent product these days. *I don't
know about the r410a but you can silver solder r22 systems using
propane instead of brazing them and they will hold up just fine.

Yes, Harris Silverbrite 8 can be used.

While it is still a good idea to purge with nitrogen it's not as
critical with propane as it is when brazing. *You are not going to
produce as much copper oxide inside the line with silver solder.

That is true too. *As long as you're good at soldering
and you don't overheat the joint the probability of
forming a lot of crud inside is low. *But how lucky do
you feel compared to the cost of some nitrogen?

*A

vacuum pump is still a pretty good idea though.

Good idea? *It's essential.

*Some of the old guys

did used to charge by cracking open the low side to the atmosphere and
letting the refrigerant purge the line but that's sort of guesswork
and likely exceeds the de minimus release rules as well.

That's for sure. *Those old buys were hacks. *Gases don't just go in
and come out like a sausage. *They mix.
Moisture inside the lines boils off in a vacuum. *With
the bleed method above, it stays in the brand new
system. * *And any contamination is apparently worse in the case of
R410A systems too.

And a set of

guages is pretty much a must. *Though the other old trick I heard of
was charge using vapor until the low line feels like a beer just out
of the fridge.

That trick is another hack.

*If your plan is to get a pro to do the start up after

you do the install find the pro willing to do that before you embark.
Not many are.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It's not so much the cost of nitrogen for the diy'er as it is access
to the various pieces of equipment. *Sure it's 50c worth of nitrogen.

On Jul 19, 12:34*pm, "
wrote:
On Jul 19, 10:32*am, jamesgangnc wrote:





On Jul 17, 6:45*pm, "
wrote:

On Jul 17, 5:06*pm, jamesgangnc wrote:

On Jul 17, 4:46*pm, "
wrote:

On Jul 17, 3:05*pm, jamesgangnc wrote:

On Jul 17, 8:20*am, "
wrote:

On Jul 16, 10:46*pm, The Daring Dufas the-daring-du...@stinky-

finger.net wrote:
On 4/29/2012 12:54 AM, SRN wrote:

"ls02" wrote in message
...
What realiable good quality central A/C brands are sold directly to
homeowners and available for DIY installation? Can I buy any of them
online?

Check eBay....there are many sellers on there with tons of feedback you can
review. A proper installation is much more important than who the
manufacturer is.....

How true, I've seen inexpensive mid efficiency properly installed
Goodman systems outlast and outperform improperly installed high
efficiency American Standard and Trane systems. It can make you mad
like seeing a gasoline fueled Bentley blowing smoke out the tailpipe
and Bondo all over the body, not located in The Middle East.. ^_^

TDD

I've only seen Rheem and Goodman offered for sale
by regular online stores. *Be aware of warranty issues,
as you may not have the same or any warranty as if you
bought it and had it installed from a local dealer.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Goodman is the easiest to get your hands on without a contractors
license. *Carrier and Trane both control their wholesalers pretty
tightly. *Goodman is actually a decent product these days. *I don't
know about the r410a but you can silver solder r22 systems using
propane instead of brazing them and they will hold up just fine..

Yes, Harris Silverbrite 8 can be used.

While it is still a good idea to purge with nitrogen it's not as
critical with propane as it is when brazing. *You are not going to
produce as much copper oxide inside the line with silver solder..

That is true too. *As long as you're good at soldering
and you don't overheat the joint the probability of
forming a lot of crud inside is low. *But how lucky do
you feel compared to the cost of some nitrogen?

*A

vacuum pump is still a pretty good idea though.

Good idea? *It's essential.

*Some of the old guys

did used to charge by cracking open the low side to the atmosphere and
letting the refrigerant purge the line but that's sort of guesswork
and likely exceeds the de minimus release rules as well.

That's for sure. *Those old buys were hacks. *Gases don't just go in
and come out like a sausage. *They mix.
Moisture inside the lines boils off in a vacuum. *With
the bleed method above, it stays in the brand new
system. * *And any contamination is apparently worse in the case of
R410A systems too.

And a set of

guages is pretty much a must. *Though the other old trick I heard of
was charge using vapor until the low line feels like a beer just out
of the fridge.

That trick is another hack.

*If your plan is to get a pro to do the start up after

you do the install find the pro willing to do that before you embark.
Not many are.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It's not so much the cost of nitrogen for the diy'er as it is access
to the various pieces of equipment. *Sure it's 50c worth of nitrogen.
But you have to have a nitrogen tank, a regulator, and a line. *Same
issue with the rest of it. *Vacuum pump costs money. *Gauges cost
money. *Would I do it without gauges, no.

Yeah, they cost money, but then so too does that
$2500 worth of AC equipment the guy just bought
which can be ruined by some dumb ass doing a
hack job.

On the other hand the systems aren't as "fragile" as the hvac techs
try to make it sound either. *Put a filter/dryer in the line and what
little moisture there is a factory pressure sealed A coil and new
lineset is pretty much taken care of. *And on a basic system that is
using a fixed piston the charge is only "perfect" at one operating
condition. *At the rest it's a compromise anyway.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The equipment manufacturers, who write the install
directions would disagree with you. The instructions
I have seen all stress the importance of pulling a
proper vacuum, especially for R410 systems. *And
you can't legally use refrigerant to purge it anyway.
In fact, the guy asking for recommendations can't
do that part of the install legally at all, unless he has
EPA certification.

As for saying the correct charge as specified by the
manufacturer is only "perfect" at
one operating condition, that's like saying the timing
is only perfect at one condition on an internal combustion
engine, so it's OK to just wing it......- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm not saying it's not better to try to install the system with the
most accurate charge possible. *I'm just saying there is not as much
consequence to being a bit off as some people claim.

Not vacuuming a new system and not using gauges
to charge it are not just a "bit off" in my book.

Particularly

hvac techs that want to make it seem like installing a basic split
system is interplanetary rocket science.

Since when is connecting a vacuum pump or a set
of gauages rocket science?

*There are a whole lot of

residental systems out there running at less than perfect charges.
And most of them will still run their normal life expectancy. *Might
cost a few dollars more a month to run.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Most of them? That's reassuring given that the brand
new eqpt you're advocating installing half-assed costs
$2500.

There are plenty of AC systems out there that
have failed because of hack installation jobs. *If it
doesn't matter, why do the manufacturers all stress
the importance of vacuuming a system to get all
the moisture and air out? * *Who should we believe,
you or the folks that build the eqpt? *Seems if I
was a manufacturer and it made no difference, I'd
say "With our superior systems, no need for vacuum
or gauges. *Save time and money on your install.
Buy our eqpt."

As for costing a few bucks a month more to run,
think about what you're advocating. *I can buy a
basic set of gauges for $50. *So, what's the point]
to doing it half-assed?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Shouldn't you be hanging around over there in alt.hvac?

wrote in message ...
On Jul 17, 3:05 pm, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jul 17, 8:20 am, "
wrote:





On Jul 16, 10:46 pm, The Daring Dufas the-daring-du...@stinky-

finger.net wrote:
On 4/29/2012 12:54 AM, SRN wrote:

"ls02" wrote in message
...
What realiable good quality central A/C brands are sold directly to
homeowners and available for DIY installation? Can I buy any of them
online?

Check eBay....there are many sellers on there with tons of feedback you can
review. A proper installation is much more important than who the
manufacturer is.....

How true, I've seen inexpensive mid efficiency properly installed
Goodman systems outlast and outperform improperly installed high
efficiency American Standard and Trane systems. It can make you mad
like seeing a gasoline fueled Bentley blowing smoke out the tailpipe
and Bondo all over the body, not located in The Middle East. ^_^

TDD

I've only seen Rheem and Goodman offered for sale
by regular online stores. Be aware of warranty issues,
as you may not have the same or any warranty as if you
bought it and had it installed from a local dealer.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Goodman is the easiest to get your hands on without a contractors
license. Carrier and Trane both control their wholesalers pretty
tightly. Goodman is actually a decent product these days. I don't
know about the r410a but you can silver solder r22 systems using
propane instead of brazing them and they will hold up just fine.

Yes, Harris Silverbrite 8 can be used.


While maybe surprise to some of you Tech. out there

It does not matter what Refrigerant you are using any contamination

In any system is not good. As for type material you are using to install it is

all how good tech. you really are you can use silver sillfoss, Silverbrite or

staybrite all are suitable on any of these refrigerants it is up to tech. matter of

preference. Dealers are all scumbags when it comes to tell you truth they love

to sell You what are they dealing with? As for vacuum it is necessary to pull

good vacuum on any system "but you are not pulling vacuum because you are

using Refrigerant #410, but type of oil it is in system, 410 refrigerant is not

any difference then #134 or 404, however it becomes more critical if system

is to be used at lower temperatures. The oil as POE which is use with all new

refrigerants' once gets contaminate "Virtually" it can not be clean or taking

moisture out of system without changing of oil.



While it is still a good idea to purge with nitrogen it's not as
critical with propane as it is when brazing. You are not going to
produce as much copper oxide inside the line with silver solder.

That is true too. As long as you're good at soldering
and you don't overheat the joint the probability of
forming a lot of crud inside is low. But how lucky do
you feel compared to the cost of some nitrogen?



A
vacuum pump is still a pretty good idea though.

Good idea? It's essential.



Some of the old guys
did used to charge by cracking open the low side to the atmosphere and
letting the refrigerant purge the line but that's sort of guesswork
and likely exceeds the de minimus release rules as well.

That's for sure. Those old buys were hacks. Gases don't just go in
and come out like a sausage. They mix.
Moisture inside the lines boils off in a vacuum. With
the bleed method above, it stays in the brand new
system. And any contamination is apparently worse in the case of
R410A systems too.



And a set of
guages is pretty much a must. Though the other old trick I heard of
was charge using vapor until the low line feels like a beer just out
of the fridge.

That trick is another hack.


If your plan is to get a pro to do the start up after
you do the install find the pro willing to do that before you embark.
Not many are.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -