[The Daring Dufas[_7_]]

On 4/11/2012 7:47 AM, Robert Green wrote:
did it again!

stuff snipped

You do see how that presents a problem for the justice system. All someone
has to do is get the drop on you in some remote location, shoot you, punch
themselves in the face with your dead fist (hopefully you're wearing a
ring
that will tear flesh and transfer DNA evidence) and they've gotten away
with
murder.

You do see how regardless of SYG one can always try to rig
a crime scene. For example, no need for a remote location.
Just get them into your house, shoot them and put a knife or
gun in their hand. A lot easier than trying to punch yourself with
a dead person's fist to create a realistic injury. Even your
strawman arguments are pathetic.

God, how I love it when you're unnecessarily rude and incontrovertibly
wrong, Trader. Tell us about the LENF and CRIM courses you've taken to make
that assertion? Hmmm. Tell us about your father. Was he a forensic
investigator? Hmmm. Is your sister a criminal court judge? Thought not.
You're punching way over your weight on this and it shows.

Just "get them into your house" you say. How do you get your mortal enemy
to your house without arousing his suspicion? Send him a muffin basket?
Invite him to tea? Where are you getting the gun to put in his hand? The
magic gun locker in the sky? Do you think cops won't check that knife for
your fingerprints or DNA embedded in the handle? Or look to see if any
knives are missing from your kitchen set? Putting a weapon in the dead
man's hands is a trick even older than the wax in your ears. The cops are
very much "onto" it.

You call my hypotheticals ridiculous but you conjure up far more unlikely
impossibilities out of thin air. "A man will accuse others of what he is
most guilty of himself." Once again you prove the Flanigan's Law. Why
can't you just make your statements without the "pathetic" personal dig?
You let your rage and anger blind you, time and time again.

FWIW, punching yourself with the dead man's hand is going to provide far
more convincing proof of an assault (although one didn't actually take
place) than your trite, dog-eared suggestion of planting a knife from your
kitchen drawer or a gun (that you've materialized out of thin air) in their
hands. Remember how people were commenting about examining the hands of
dead Martin? That's because in a real physical assault, DNA will likely
transfer. So by simulating a punching attack, a hair with a follicle or
some skin is likely to transfer, bolstering the false claim enormously. Far
more than a kitchen knife that was lying around would and no, - save your
breath - police hardly *ever* believe the guy broke in without a weapon and
used one of yours to attack you.

Read up how forensic techs deal with the very real problem of people faking
their injuries to make false assault claims. This is LENF 101 stuff. Maybe
if you spent years on a police beat as a reporter, the way I did, you'd know
better than to open your mouth and dispel all doubt about your knowledge, as
they say. You have to turn everything into a bitter personal diatribe
Trader, but it's "pathetic" to see you get so rude when you don't really
know of what you speak:

http://what-when-how.com/forensic-sc...licted-injury/

Here are a few excerpts:

**emphasis mine**

Introduction
The physical examination of persons with injuries that have been
self-inflicted deliberately is part of the **routine work** in clinical
forensic medicine. The recognition of self-harm is of criminalistic
importance when differentiating between assaults, accidents, suicidal acts
and other kinds of self-destructive behavior; the main categories are listed
in Table 1. In cases of

Table 1 Main categories of self-induced bodily harm
1. Simulation of a criminal offense:
(a) False rape allegation
(b) Feigned robbery or alleged attack for other fabricated reasons
2. Self-mutilation for the purpose of insurance fraud
3. Voluntary self-mutilation and/or malingering among soldiers and prisoners
4. Dermal artifacts, self-mutilation and malingering in patients with
personality disorders
5. Suicidal gestures, (attempted) suicide


Simulation of Criminal Offenses

This group comprises self-inflicted injuries of individuals who claim to
have been the victim of an assault. The bodily damage, therefore, is used as
alleged proof of a fictitious offense. The dramatic story told by the
informant is often in obvious contrast to a uniform wound pattern (Fig. 1)
and a poor severity of the injuries so that the whole picture does not
suggest a real struggle with the dynamics of a fight.
According to the literature, up to **20% of the sexual offenses reported to
the police are fictitious.** In false rape allegations the **informants
frequently injure themselves in order to give support to their story** (Fig.
2).

The rest of the article is similarly illuminating. Twenty percent of the
sex offenses reported are fictitious.

Usually the self-inflicted injuries are caused with the help of pointed
and/or cutting tools such as knives, razor blades, nail-scissors, and broken
glass. The resulting wounds are of a trivial nature, mostly consisting of
superficial cuts or linear abrasions. The characteristics of a 'classical'
injury pattern are listed in Table 2. In typical cases there is a multitude
of equally shallow lesions which are strikingly uniform in shape, often
orientated in the same direction or in a criss-cross manner. The cuts avoid
especially sensitive areas like the eyes, lips, nipples, and genitals. They
are mainly located on the frontal aspect of the trunk, on the face, the
neck, the arms and hands, and sometimes on the lower limbs. Nevertheless,
self-inflicted injuries may also be found on the back of the body, as far as
it is accessible for the alleged victim's hand, or if the injuries have been
caused with the assistance of another person. Often the relevant garments
are either undamaged or the damage does not correspond to the skin lesions.

Table 2 Typical features of self-inflicted injuries fabricated to simulate a
criminal offence
1. Infliction either by sharp/pointed instruments or by fingernails
2. Equally shallow, non penetrating cuts or fingernail abrasions (sometimes
each of considerable length)
3. Multitude of individual lesions
4. Uniform shape, linear or slightly curved course of the lesions
5. Grouped and/or parallel and/or criss-cross arrangement
6. Symmetry or preference of the non-dominant side of the body (usually the
left)
7. Location in easily reachable body regions
8. Omission of especially sensitive body regions
9. No damage of the clothes or inconsistent damage
10. Lack of defense injuries
11. Additional presence of scars from former self-injurious behavior

This is a pretty well-known issue in forensic investigations and I'm kind of
surprised you appear to have no knowledge of how often people fake injuries
to the police, insurance companies and even their own families for a variety
of reasons.

BTW, military investigators have a whole chapter in their training manuals
devoted to SIW's, something that happened in AfRaq a number of times that I
know of and that happens in every war:

http://www.firstworldwar.com/atoz/siw.htm

If found guilty of a self-inflicted wound in the British Army the ultimate
penalty was capital, i.e. death by firing squad. In the British Army some
3,894 men were found guilty of SIW; in practice none were executed but
instead sent to prison for lengthy periods.

People injure themselves for all sorts of reasons. But not many get away
with it because they're as unimaginative as you seem to be at figuring out
how to make their fake injuries look real. Or perhaps they can't conjure a
gun out of thin air, as you seem to be suggesting, to "flake" their victim
with.

--

Bobby G.


We had a crazy judge who committed suicide with an invisible gun. ^_^

http://wadeonbirmingham.com/2009/08/...ing-extortion/

http://preview.tinyurl.com/7vgws9v

TDD

[Kurt Ullman]

In article ,
"Robert Green" wrote:


Hey, you said, precisely: "Why is it not national news . . ." The OJ case
WAS national news, no matter how ridiculous the outcome. The following
civil suit DID find him guilty. Maybe he WAS innocent:
How about limiting it to non-celebrity national news? The OJ thing is
an outlier because he was a famous football player (and actor- kinda
sorta on that one).

a
I do know prosecutors and cops *repeatedly* stepped on their dicks big time
in the OJ case and weren't prepared to go up against the likes of the legal
team OJ assembled. The got outlawyered as the attorneys like to say, and
they got outlawyered big time.

Prosecutor's more so than the cops, that was mostly race baiting by the
defense team. The Prosecutors lost it (and deservedly so) when they did
not object to trying on the glove.


--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz

[Attila.Iskander]

"Doug" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 14:45:51 -0500, "Attila.Iskander"
wrote:


"Oren" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 12:51:04 -0500, "Attila.Iskander"
wrote:

and zimmerman appears to have a history of violent behavior.....


So you will swallow any **** that the media feeds you..

If notice the first (early) photos of Z show him in a mug shot. I
noticed his "orange jump suit" from the begriming.


Yes the press INTENTIONALLY presented a photo that is
- old
- not very complementary
They did EXACTLY the opposite for Martin by showing an old photo that made
him look more like a happy problem-free child, and not the thrice
suspended
High-Schooler with women's jewelry and MJ in his possession

Very much in the line of editing the 911 call to make it sound that
Zimmerman targeted Martin because he was black, by leaving out the fact
that
he was responding to a question by the 911 operator.


"...According to the documents, Zimmerman went to court in 2005 and
2006 for these incidents. "

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/state/zimmerman-of-sanford-has-past-arrest-charges-2266725.html

I'm not sure these arrests preclude him from having a permit under
Florida law. The state may have a reckoning period, where he can apply
after X amount of years.

Clearly they did NOT, since Zimmerman HAD a permit.
And just being arrested and "going to court" means nothing.

Once when refereeing a soccer game, I stepped between an irate parent and
a
player to protect the player. In the process, I took the parent down
(hard),
and made sure he wasn't getting up, since in my opinion he clearly had the
intention of assaulting said player.
When the police showed up, I was temporarily "detained at the scene" while
the story was cleared up.
The parent was arrested, I was not.
The parent was charged, I was not.
The case went to court, and I DID have to appear.

I'm quite sure that that incident could be easily stated as
"While refereeing, he was detained by police and had to appear in
court
for assaulting a parent"
All it would be true in fact.
But the way it was stated would lead to a false impression.

Incomplete stories can easily be manipulated to gull the gullible or those
who are looking for a certain point of view.
We already have had some CLEARLY intentional misrepresentation by the
press,
(MSNBC actually admitted to it for the 911 call ), both by the photo, and
the partial 911 call.




I have to admit whoever made the decision to put the original photos
on tv had to know from experience what this was going to do (sway). I
don't believe it was accidental even if newer ones were not available
yet.

Personally, I'm not convinced this was a racial killing yet but I
still ask myself if this was simply murder? Hopefully time will
tell but regardless of the outcome, I'm glad I'm not in his shoes.

There definitely was spin to make Martin look like the poor innocent victim
It took no time to post nice and bad photos
Nor did it take much time to edit the 911 call to make Zimmerman look the
racist
The dirt on Martin was only surfaced because bloggers started digging that
side of the story. The MSM only started talking about it, till after it was
impossible to ignore.

If you look at the fact that Zimmerman actually helped a black homeless man
earlier plus the statement of his (black) friend, it's highly doubtful that
the killing was racial in ANY WAY.
It was turned into a race issue after the fact, in part because of the
perception that the Sanford police was not doing it's job

[Attila.Iskander]

"Doug" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 17:21:26 -0500, Michael Dobony
wrote:

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 16:17:19 -0500, Doug wrote:

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 14:45:51 -0500, "Attila.Iskander"
wrote:


"Oren" wrote in message
m...
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 12:51:04 -0500, "Attila.Iskander"
wrote:

and zimmerman appears to have a history of violent behavior.....


So you will swallow any **** that the media feeds you..

If notice the first (early) photos of Z show him in a mug shot. I
noticed his "orange jump suit" from the begriming.


Yes the press INTENTIONALLY presented a photo that is
- old
- not very complementary
They did EXACTLY the opposite for Martin by showing an old photo that
made
him look more like a happy problem-free child, and not the thrice
suspended
High-Schooler with women's jewelry and MJ in his possession

Very much in the line of editing the 911 call to make it sound that
Zimmerman targeted Martin because he was black, by leaving out the fact
that
he was responding to a question by the 911 operator.


"...According to the documents, Zimmerman went to court in 2005 and
2006 for these incidents. "

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/state/zimmerman-of-sanford-has-past-arrest-charges-2266725.html

I'm not sure these arrests preclude him from having a permit under
Florida law. The state may have a reckoning period, where he can apply
after X amount of years.

Clearly they did NOT, since Zimmerman HAD a permit.
And just being arrested and "going to court" means nothing.

Once when refereeing a soccer game, I stepped between an irate parent
and a
player to protect the player. In the process, I took the parent down
(hard),
and made sure he wasn't getting up, since in my opinion he clearly had
the
intention of assaulting said player.
When the police showed up, I was temporarily "detained at the scene"
while
the story was cleared up.
The parent was arrested, I was not.
The parent was charged, I was not.
The case went to court, and I DID have to appear.

I'm quite sure that that incident could be easily stated as
"While refereeing, he was detained by police and had to appear in
court
for assaulting a parent"
All it would be true in fact.
But the way it was stated would lead to a false impression.

Incomplete stories can easily be manipulated to gull the gullible or
those
who are looking for a certain point of view.
We already have had some CLEARLY intentional misrepresentation by the
press,
(MSNBC actually admitted to it for the 911 call ), both by the photo,
and
the partial 911 call.




I have to admit whoever made the decision to put the original photos
on tv had to know from experience what this was going to do (sway). I
don't believe it was accidental even if newer ones were not available
yet.

Personally, I'm not convinced this was a racial killing yet but I
still ask myself if this was simply murder? Hopefully time will
tell but regardless of the outcome, I'm glad I'm not in his shoes.

Forget about everything that happened and was said from the press.
Witnesses saw Martin attacking Zimmerman, on top of him and pounding him,
and Zimmerman screaming for help. That makes the shooting self-defense if
done during the assault by Martin.


Ok but when I saw the video, I didn't see any blood, grass stains or
wrinkled clothing. And when he got outa the police car, he didn't
look like a person who had a struggle / fight with another person. I
know some explain this saying the video isn't clear but it looked
clear to me. Right or wrong, due to the confusion, I'll just wait
till the dust settles on this. And you're right about the press...
best to ignor them, at least for right now.


Agreed on the press.
They have tainted themselves badly
Look at the enhanced video. You can see damage to the top of Z's head
Also in the video, one of the officers is seen inspecting Zimmerman's head
Clothing can be brushed off and show little leftover from a struggle
Go read the police report which states that Z had injuries that were cleaned
up at the scene, and Z declined to go to the hospital

[[email protected][_2_]]

On Apr 11, 8:47*am, "Robert Green" wrote:
did it again!

stuff snipped



You do see how that presents a problem for the justice system. All someone
has to do is get the drop on you in some remote location, shoot you, punch
themselves in the face with your dead fist (hopefully you're wearing a
ring
that will tear flesh and transfer DNA evidence) and they've gotten away
with
murder.

You do see how regardless of SYG one can always try to rig
a crime scene. * For example, no need for a remote location.
Just get them into your house, shoot them and put a knife or
gun in their hand. *A lot easier than trying to punch yourself with
a dead person's fist to create a realistic injury. *Even your
strawman arguments are pathetic.

God, how I love it when you're unnecessarily rude and incontrovertibly
wrong, Trader. *Tell us about the LENF and CRIM courses you've taken to make
that assertion? *Hmmm. *Tell us about your father. Was he a forensic
investigator? *Hmmm. *Is your sister a criminal court judge? *Thought not.
You're punching way over your weight on this and it shows.

Just "get them into your house" you say. *How do you get your mortal enemy
to your house without arousing his suspicion?

I guess the same way you would get them to the remote
location, which was your scenario. How many homicides
happen in the home versus the middle of the forest, genius?
Which is going to be more suspicous? Officer, why
Jimmy D came upon me in the middle of the forest
and punched me with his fist....



* Send him a muffin basket?
Invite him to tea? Where are you getting the gun to put in his hand? *The
magic gun locker in the sky? *Do you think cops won't check that knife for
your fingerprints or DNA embedded in the handle? *Or look to see if any
knives are missing from your kitchen set? *Putting a weapon in the dead
man's hands is a trick even older than the wax in your ears. The cops are
very much "onto" it.

Of course they won't apply similar techniques to your
remote location scenario, complete with punching
yourself in the face with the dead guy's fist. How
exactly does one make a dead guy's hand into a
fist? Go figure.



You call my hypotheticals ridiculous but you conjure up far more unlikely
impossibilities out of thin air. *"A man will accuse others of what he is
most guilty of himself."

All I did was point out that you can kill someone in
your own house and stage a crime scene. You
suggested that because of SYG it can be done in
a remote location, implying that SYG is suddenly
making murder and fabricating a crime scene
possible.



Once again you prove the Flanigan's Law. *Why
can't you just make your statements without the "pathetic" personal dig?
You let your rage and anger blind you, time and time again.

I'll leave it for others to judge who's angry and blinded
here.




FWIW, punching yourself with the dead man's hand is going to provide far
more convincing proof of an assault (although one didn't actually take
place) than your trite, dog-eared suggestion of planting a knife from your
kitchen drawer or a gun (that you've materialized out of thin air) in their
hands.

So now you're an expert in crime scene forensics too.
Call me skeptical, but I think you'd have a hell of a
time punching yourself in the face with a dead man's
fist. And I think forensics would show you to be a liar.

BTW, the gun in my scenario doesn't materialize out of thin air any
more than your trip to the remote location. You set
out a scenario of a planned murder. Well, if you
can plan to lure someone to a remote location, you
can also plan to have the gun to put in their hand at
home available too. Follow?




*Remember how people were commenting about examining the hands of
dead Martin? *That's because in a real physical assault, DNA will likely
transfer. *So by simulating a punching attack, a hair with a follicle or
some skin is likely to transfer, bolstering the false claim enormously. *Far
more than a kitchen knife that was lying around would and no, - save your
breath - police hardly *ever* believe the guy broke in without a weapon and
used one of yours to attack you.

I never said anything about using a household
weapon or one attributable to you or the household
Follow?




Read up how forensic techs deal with the very real problem of people faking
their injuries to make false assault claims. *This is LENF 101 stuff. *Maybe
if you spent years on a police beat as a reporter, the way I did, you'd know
better than to open your mouth and dispel all doubt about your knowledge, as
they say.

Yawn.... Of course those same forensic techniques
apply to your fabricated, remote crime scene.



*You have to turn everything into a bitter personal diatribe
Trader, but it's "pathetic" to see you get so rude when you don't really
know of what you speak:


Look in the mirror.

Long useless rant about forensics that apply equally to YOUR remote
murder scenario clipped for the benefit of all

My, you are soooo boring.

[Robert Green]

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
news:jm418n$vmr$1@dont-

stuff snipped

People injure themselves for all sorts of reasons. But not many get
away
with it because they're as unimaginative as you seem to be at figuring
out
how to make their fake injuries look real. Or perhaps they can't
conjure a
gun out of thin air, as you seem to be suggesting, to "flake" their
victim
with.

--

Bobby G.


We had a crazy judge who committed suicide with an invisible gun. ^_^


http://wadeonbirmingham.com/2009/08/...ing-extortion/

http://preview.tinyurl.com/7vgws9v

Now I know where to go when I want to flake my mortal enemy with a handgun
to prove self-defense.

Crazytown. (-:

That guy looks just like the big prison guard in "The Green Mile." We've
had judges like that here. One got into serious trouble by telling a
habitual drunkard he was getting the death penalty. The guy collapsed and
hit his head. Judge Femia - paisano. He was always making the headlines
like that. Probably retired but never boring.

It's going to make T/C twitch, but I've already figured out how to commit
suicide by gun and make it look like murder. Tie the gun to a big helium
filled weather balloon. After you've blown your brains out, the balloon
will carry the pistol far away from the crime scene. Attach it with some
rubber bands that will get brittle in the cold and strong sunlight and it
might even break away from the balloon. There are other ways to rig that as
well. Probably best to use a remote string loop trigger - a perennial
favorite among the shotgun-based "deadfall" door trap. That way your dead
hands won't have telltale powder burns. (-:

Ever since I read about the doctor who sewed a tube of someone else's blood
into his arm to beat a blood test, I am not surprised by any level of human
ingenuity in trying to cover up a crime. Even my DOG knows how to throw
suspicion elsewhere after she commits a bad act. She runs away and then
waits for me to investigate and arrives from some other direction looking
surprised. I've seen little kids do it. I've seen Bill Clinton do it. (-:
The "cover up" is human nature hard at work.

Should I conclude all Birminghamians are crooks?

http://wadeonbirmingham.com/special-...iggest-crooks/

Of course not. That's why I don't like to draw conclusions about an entire
population based on how wackadoo some of them can be. Do I think some
editors might downplay black on white crime? Sure. I think after Rodney
King and the assassination of MLK, they are rightfully afraid of starting a
race riot. That's what's going to happen in Sanford. Attitudes are just
too far apart to find middle ground and the Neo Nazis are throwing their hat
in the ring along with the New (but looking very much like the same old,
same old) Black Panthers. One side or the other is going to be very unhappy
with the decision, even if they find him guilty of some lesser offense.

PS: You'd better learn to snip some of your posts or the resident Usenet
mohel is going to come after you for improper snippage with his izmel.

--
Bobby G.

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:45:54 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Norminn" wrote in message

stuff snipped

If Z and M were in close contact at the time of the shooting, GS residue
would tell a lot. Was Z tested? Forensics re the GSW also
telling....it is such horrible police work (not at all unusual in
Florida), but the prosecutor should be able to put together stuff that
isn't public yet. If there was blood at scene from Z's injuries, how
long would it be detectable, I wonder.

Those are excellent reasons to suspect the first rather superficial pass at
the evidence. That kind of horrible police work is endemic to small town
PDs. It takes money to hire competent detectives and forensic techs and
most small jurisdictions don't have it. I'll be very interested in reading
the final report and hope it answers a lot of the unanswered questions
floating around. I suspect a lot of what we consider "facts" at this time
will evaporate by then. I have always been suspicious of there being some
prior contact between the two of them for whatever reason. They were
geographically "co-located" as they say in the server biz. (-:

DOn't be ridiculous. If there were prior contact they wouldn't have ruled out
murder-1.

[Robert Green]

"Oren" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:45:54 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

Those are excellent reasons to suspect the first rather superficial pass
at
the evidence. That kind of horrible police work is endemic to small town
PDs. It takes money to hire competent detectives and forensic techs and
most small jurisdictions don't have it.

Florida has the FDLE

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content/home.aspx

State funded, great support to local agencies.

Sate and local agree on things. What a shock.

Apparently not. The state investigators seem to have found something to
spur a murder two indictment that the local Sanford investigators didn't
find. No surprise there and to my mind indicates a rewrite of the law to
require a state investigation into any SYG case. Bones will have to be
thrown, and you know it. (-:

--
Bobby G.

[Robert Green]

"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
"Robert Green" wrote:

Hey, you said, precisely: "Why is it not national news . . ." The OJ
case
WAS national news, no matter how ridiculous the outcome. The following
civil suit DID find him guilty. Maybe he WAS innocent:

How about limiting it to non-celebrity national news? The OJ thing is
an outlier because he was a famous football player (and actor- kinda
sorta on that one).

Remove the celebrity element and then it's anybody's guess what rises to
national prominence.

I do know prosecutors and cops *repeatedly* stepped on their dicks big
time
in the OJ case and weren't prepared to go up against the likes of the
legal
team OJ assembled. The got outlawyered as the attorneys like to say,
and
they got outlawyered big time.

Prosecutor's more so than the cops, that was mostly race baiting by the
defense team. The Prosecutors lost it (and deservedly so) when they did
not object to trying on the glove.

The cops had serious chain of custody issues with the blood sample among
other things, like Fuhrman's use of the N word. The case was truly lost
when Marcia changed her hairstyle mid-trial. (-:

--
Bobby G.

[Robert Green]

wrote in message news:3e0908e7-7a18-4388-88d3-
On Apr 4, 7:24 am, "Robert Green" wrote:
"Bill Kniess" wrote in message

stuff snipped

But your fitting of the DATA to match the scanario is totally without
substabntiation if you state the video was of poor quality, then
proceed to base your case on that video as you did in 2,3,4,5, and
your conclusion. You then state the vudeo was non-indicative,
further negating any proof you presume to present in 2-5.

That's the fascinating part of this case. People are emphasizing the
evidence that supports their position and disregarding evidence that
doesn't. I'm going to wait until the investigations are complete. I've
discovered in discussing this with people that a lot of them had no idea
that SYG laws were in place that had this sort of reach.

--
Bobby G.

SYG doesn't even apply.

Says self-appointed Justice Chet aka Trader. Apparently the Florida Special
Prosecutor disagrees with your "considered" legal opinion.

The case will almost certainly include a pretrial hearing to determine
whether the state's Stand Your Ground law, which grants broad protections to
people who claim to have killed in self-defense, applies; if the judge finds
that Mr. Zimmerman acted appropriately, the case will end there. If the
judge decides that the protections of the law do not apply, the case will go
forward.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/12/us...n-florida.html

The only two witnesses to the actual event were Zimmerman and
one other witness. Both say that Martin was on top, Zimmerman was
on the ground yelling for help, with Martin pummeling him.

Oh, so you canvassed the entire community, interviewed them personally, of
course, and verified their stories. Didn't think so. Your so convinced your
view is the truth and any other construction of the facts is erroneous, or
so you would have us believe. We don't believe.

Bill made an excellent point. Why is it you consider *your* obviously
second-hand hearsay information golden and everyone else's crap?

The witness shouted out that he was calling 911, which apparently didn't
stop what was going on. Even with a requirement that Z was supposed to
retreat, if possible, before using deadly force,you want to explain to us
how that was possible?

I'll let the Special Prosecutor explain it to you since she's decided that
your hearsay "facts" don't seem to be in order. She will be required to
make the evidence leading to the charges public soon, so we'll all know why
she chose to indict him for murder in the second degree. The shooting would
never have happened had Zimmerman not armed himself and taken it upon
himself to act like a policeman. He went out seeking Martin or someone like
him with a loaded gun. The incident started with his ill-considered idea to
be a vigilante. Even if he gets off, I *still* wouldn't want to be
Zimmerman. He's in a world of hurt, guilty or innocent.

Under second-degree murder, the jury must find that a death was caused by
a criminal act "demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human
life," said Eric Abrahamsen, a criminal defense lawyer in Tallahassee,
reading from the state's standard jury instructions. The maximum sentence
for second-degree murder is life in prison; the minimum penalty under these
charges is 25 years.:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/12/us...n-florida.html

That's some serious time. At least it's not murder one and the death
sentence, which could have been possible had GZ and TM had a previous
encounter of some kind.

--
Bobby G.

[Robert Green]

"G. Morgan" wrote in message

Norminn wrote:

Some cops lie...some are racist *******s...

aside

What ****es me off is that cops are allowed to lie and deceive the
suspect during questioning, but if the suspect lies he's guilty of
"obstruction of justice" (even if he had nothing to do with the
crime he's being questioned about).

Don't talk to cops...

Some of the things they do are horrific like telling a kid that his dead
mother told police that "he did it" just before she died when in fact she
said no such thing.

--
Bobby G.

[Robert Green]

"HeyBub" wrote in message news:4-mdncavcatX3-

stuff snipped

And they're not TOTAL morons - or at least they have lawyers. I recall,
back
in the day, when our state prisons were overcrowded, some defendants were
refusing a felony plea-bargain down to a misdemeanor! Here's why. A 3rd
degree felony conviction would yield a two-to-five year sentence in the
big
house. But due to overcrowding, the average stay in a state prison
facility
was two months. A guilty plea to a Class A misdemeanor (next step down
from
a 3rd degree felony) was twelve months in the county jails, which were NOT
overcrowded. So, it became two months vs. twelve. Jeeze, what would the
stink-eye pick. Stand back, let the man think....

Still, a lot of people don't know the inner workings of the system and cop a
plea. I don't think I'd ever cop a plea to anything because it terminates
your appellate rights. Look at Dershowitz and VonBulow. I bet VB was glad
he forced them to go to trial.

To think that two teams of attorneys, a judge and jury won't commit some
reversible error among them is having great but unwarranted faith in
mankind. The closer the DA gets to trial without a plea, the sweeter the
plea offers become.

--
Bobby G.



But HeyBub, my 2nd grade teacher always told me the policeman was my
friend. (-:


He generally is. I used to tell complainants "If it was up to me, I'd loan
you my gun."

Unless you are remotely associated with an illegal act.

Think about it. The cop seldom sees the goblin, but he ALWAYS sees the
victim.

[Oren[_2_]]

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 02:11:18 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Oren" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:45:54 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

Those are excellent reasons to suspect the first rather superficial pass
at
the evidence. That kind of horrible police work is endemic to small town
PDs. It takes money to hire competent detectives and forensic techs and
most small jurisdictions don't have it.

Florida has the FDLE

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content/home.aspx

State funded, great support to local agencies.

Sate and local agree on things. What a shock.

Apparently not. The state investigators seem to have found something to
spur a murder two indictment that the local Sanford investigators didn't
find. No surprise there and to my mind indicates a rewrite of the law to
require a state investigation into any SYG case. Bones will have to be
thrown, and you know it. (-:

Why are you animated about the SYG law? Why rewrite laws that courts
support?

"Two years ago, the Florida Supreme Court ruled that anyone claiming
"stand your ground" immunity in a death, battery or assault case can
request a hearing on the evidence."

See: (it works or it doesn't)

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-11/news/os-george-zimmerman-stand-your-ground-hearings-20120411_1_eric-sandhaus-craig-sandhaus-milton-torres

"...Berman said he thinks Mark O'Mara, Zimmerman's lawyer, will
request an evidentiary hearing as part of his defense of Zimmerman's
"stand your ground" claim."

[Attila.Iskander]

"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...

Why is not national news when a Negro murders a Caucasian? o_O

Did you forget about OJ? That seemed to make the news in my town. (-:


Considering that blacks kill whites twice as often as vice-versa, while
blacks represent 1/6th of the white population, it's actually mind-boggling
that there is so little reporting of black on white homicide.
It's just that it's so danged politically incorrect.

[Attila.Iskander]

"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
"Oren" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:45:54 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

Those are excellent reasons to suspect the first rather superficial pass
at
the evidence. That kind of horrible police work is endemic to small
town
PDs. It takes money to hire competent detectives and forensic techs and
most small jurisdictions don't have it.

Florida has the FDLE

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content/home.aspx

State funded, great support to local agencies.

Sate and local agree on things. What a shock.

Apparently not. The state investigators seem to have found something to
spur a murder two indictment that the local Sanford investigators didn't
find. No surprise there and to my mind indicates a rewrite of the law to
require a state investigation into any SYG case. Bones will have to be
thrown, and you know it. (-:


Maybe the prosecutor is playing a political game
1) Charge is murder two.
2) Offer of a reduced charge for a plea.
(Cost much money to defend from a criminal charge even if innocent)
And everyone comes away satisfied, except the poor mug who just got raped
for political reasons to quiet the lynch mob.
I doubt that this prosecutor has any more information than the original
one.


And for all the idiots fixated goldfish on SYG
Get over it,
It's NOT an SYG case
And if you had done your homework you would stop proving your ignorance
on the subject

[Attila.Iskander]

"Oren" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 02:11:18 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Oren" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:45:54 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

Those are excellent reasons to suspect the first rather superficial
pass
at
the evidence. That kind of horrible police work is endemic to small
town
PDs. It takes money to hire competent detectives and forensic techs
and
most small jurisdictions don't have it.

Florida has the FDLE

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content/home.aspx

State funded, great support to local agencies.

Sate and local agree on things. What a shock.

Apparently not. The state investigators seem to have found something to
spur a murder two indictment that the local Sanford investigators didn't
find. No surprise there and to my mind indicates a rewrite of the law to
require a state investigation into any SYG case. Bones will have to be
thrown, and you know it. (-:

Why are you animated about the SYG law? Why rewrite laws that courts
support?


Particularly when it does NOT apply in the Z-M case
(booby just has a hard-on for SYG..)


"Two years ago, the Florida Supreme Court ruled that anyone claiming
"stand your ground" immunity in a death, battery or assault case can
request a hearing on the evidence."

See: (it works or it doesn't)

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-11/news/os-george-zimmerman-stand-your-ground-hearings-20120411_1_eric-sandhaus-craig-sandhaus-milton-torres

"...Berman said he thinks Mark O'Mara, Zimmerman's lawyer, will
request an evidentiary hearing as part of his defense of Zimmerman's
"stand your ground" claim."



Don't confuse booby with facts.
He has a hard-on for the SYG law, and is hoping no matter what that this
case will relieve him
Too bad for him that just about ANYONE with ANY knowledge of what SYG is,
KNOWS that this is NOT an SYG case.

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 16:01:19 -0500, "Attila.Iskander"
wrote:


"Oren" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 02:11:18 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Oren" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:45:54 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

Those are excellent reasons to suspect the first rather superficial
pass
at
the evidence. That kind of horrible police work is endemic to small
town
PDs. It takes money to hire competent detectives and forensic techs
and
most small jurisdictions don't have it.

Florida has the FDLE

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content/home.aspx

State funded, great support to local agencies.

Sate and local agree on things. What a shock.

Apparently not. The state investigators seem to have found something to
spur a murder two indictment that the local Sanford investigators didn't
find. No surprise there and to my mind indicates a rewrite of the law to
require a state investigation into any SYG case. Bones will have to be
thrown, and you know it. (-:

Why are you animated about the SYG law? Why rewrite laws that courts
support?


Particularly when it does NOT apply in the Z-M case
(booby just has a hard-on for SYG..)


"Two years ago, the Florida Supreme Court ruled that anyone claiming
"stand your ground" immunity in a death, battery or assault case can
request a hearing on the evidence."

See: (it works or it doesn't)

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-11/news/os-george-zimmerman-stand-your-ground-hearings-20120411_1_eric-sandhaus-craig-sandhaus-milton-torres

"...Berman said he thinks Mark O'Mara, Zimmerman's lawyer, will
request an evidentiary hearing as part of his defense of Zimmerman's
"stand your ground" claim."



Don't confuse booby with facts.
He has a hard-on for the SYG law, and is hoping no matter what that this
case will relieve him
Too bad for him that just about ANYONE with ANY knowledge of what SYG is,
KNOWS that this is NOT an SYG case.

It's not SYG. SYG is just a synonym for GUNS. shudder

[J Carter]

" wrote in

m:

On Apr 5, 12:27*am, "Robert Green"
wrote:

There's a concept in liability law about who has the "last clear
chance t o prevent an accident." *This was not a guy on his way
home accosted by muggers, this was someone who engaged in
confrontational behavior while armed on what seems to be a fairly
regular basis. *Trouble was bound to happen. I'm going to be most
interested in what Z considered suspicious about M.


There you go again, reaching conclusions not supported by any
of the available evidence. Show us evidence that Zimmerman
engaged in "confrontational behaviour while armed on a regular
basis." Show us evidence that he engaged in confrontational
behavior in the Martin case.


Members of this group will be shown nothing - see what happens in a
court of law where names have faces and are sworn to tell the truth.
No one but the attorneys will be making statements, and their
statements will be based on fact, not conjecture.
The prosecutor has all the information and has charged Z accorfing to
the evidence at hand.

[J Carter]

"Attila.Iskander" wrote in
:


"J Carter" wrote in message
...
"Attila.Iskander" wrote in
:


"J Carter" wrote in message
.. .

I am not advocating this, but consider:
What if Martin, seing he was being followed, had fear for his
life?

Why would he have "fear for his life" ??
Possibly explainable if he was trading dope and his supplier
was after him.



BAD ASSUMPTION
What makes you think that a drug dealer is the only one who would
fear for his life if being followed at night with no one else
around?


NOT an "assumption", but a POSSIBLE EXPLANATION
(Please try to read for COMPREHENSION)


But let's look more closely at the claim that he was in "fear of
his life" Trayvon being a teenager, was far more likely to believe
that he was immortal and that he could overcome anything
He was within easy distance of where he was staying
He was young and healthy, and more than likely able to outrun just
about anything that followed him
So you give me one reason why he would have cause to fear for his
life if someone were watching him or even following him AT A
DISTANCE. And there is NO DATA suggesting that he even tried.
And CLEARLY, if he turned around and confronted Zimmerman, he
was NOT in
fear of his life.



If Sanford has as much crime as some other posters (one who lived
ther-so many posts ago, I can't recall his name) have stated, a
person does not have to be dis-obeying the law to be afraid when
being followed at night.


More assumptions on YOUR part


Situations are not always cut-and-dried as your staements would
have us believe. There are other explanations that have as much
credibility as yours.


So sorry that your lack of reading comprehension leads you into
error..



He would then have grounds under SYG.

Nope
He would not


I think SYG does allow anyone who believes his life is being
threatened may use deadly force to defend himself.That's exactly
what Z stated he feared and did. You stated NOPE since you felt
Martin was acting unlawfully - which I don't think is covered
under SYG and theefore would not. On this you are correct.


Please inform yourself instead of "thinking"
Your thinking is more presumption than actual logical process.

SYG has NOTHING to do with the basic right to self-defense, AND
THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE,
A right which is recognized by Statute if not precedent in (to the
best of my knowledge) all 50 states.

SYG variants around the country EXTEND that basic right in a
variety of ways a) by removing the need to retreat if assaulted
in a public place b) forcing the state to show that
sell-defense was not applicable c) possibly protecting you from
civil lawsuits even though your use of deadly force was justified.

IF per the information we have available from Zimmerman and the
witness Zimmerman was confronted and assaulted by Martin
Zimmerman was on the ground with Martin on him
SYG does NOT apply,
But the statute about use of deadly force does.





I'll stop here
Since the first part of the fantasy is false, so is the rest.



Remember, your conclusions and expalnatiopns are not the absolute
end-all explanation for sutiations. WHat you call a false
fantasy has as much validity as any of your statements. No one
can detrmine what's in anohter person's mind under these
conditions.


Actually NOT
My conclusions are the best possible one based on the data
available and in the context of the laws that apply
You can NOT make the same claim


I do not say that is what happened, but there is no way you can
say it can't or didn't happen, unless you were theer and inside
Martin or even Zimmerman's head at the time.

As demonstrated above,
- your misinformation of the actual laws that apply or not are
wrong. - your speculations of what may have happened versus
that data that is
available is also wrong
Since I based my scenarios on the information available and a
correct application of which statute is most applicable, I'm quite
confident that I'm closer to the correct conclusion


As a closing note, the special prosecutor appointed by the
Governor has chosen NOT to convene a Grand Jury.
Considering that any decent prosecutor could get a ham sandwich
indicted by a Grand Jury, that raises a serious question as to why
she has decided not to do so.



WRONG, Closed mind.
As a closing note, you are wrong about everything - Z is charged with
2nd degree MURDER. No Grand Jury was convened because the prosecutor
felt there was enough evidence to support her charges - and she has
an excellent record in getting convictions.

[J Carter]

"Attila.Iskander" wrote in
:


"bob haller" wrote in message
.
com...
On Apr 10, 10:17 am, "Attila.Iskander"
wrote:
"Ron" wrote in message


s.com...





On Apr 9, 12:35 am, "Attila.Iskander"
wrote:
"Ron" wrote in message

Why don't you just copy and paste what I wrote next time?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...msg/5eb5dd2fcf
39525e

Why should I ?
Anyone with more than 2 ounces of grey matter, except for
those who choose to be willfully ignorant, should have no
trouble Googling for "Kobe Bryant
broken nose".

You parroted ALL THREE of the comments that I made, not just
the Kobe comment.

yawn
Clearly you have a problem with the notion that others may have
used OTHER
sources and come to the same conclusion
Apparently you're ego needs assuaging for you to believe
that I parroted you.
Whatever turns your crank, bubby.

And by the way, booby.
If you go back you will find that I actually went out and cited
different sources for both the Kobe Bryant story AND blood flow
from injuries to nose and head.
But if you need to believe that I was actually "parroting" you.
Well that no skin off my back..

zimmerman has started a defense fund and is looking for
donations...


Good for him
Considering how the media tried to lynch him with the way it
portrayed him and edited the 911 call to make him look like a
racist, while glossing over Martin's background..
I might even contribute

Put your money where your mouth is.
Let's see, from your posts and as sure as you are about this case,
you should give Z $1000 to show your absolute knowledge of his
innocence.

[[email protected]]

On 14 Apr 2012 06:47:55 GMT, J Carter wrote:

"Attila.Iskander" wrote in
:


"J Carter" wrote in message
...
snip

Remember, your conclusions and expalnatiopns are not the absolute
end-all explanation for sutiations. WHat you call a false
fantasy has as much validity as any of your statements. No one
can detrmine what's in anohter person's mind under these
conditions.


Actually NOT
My conclusions are the best possible one based on the data
available and in the context of the laws that apply
You can NOT make the same claim


I do not say that is what happened, but there is no way you can
say it can't or didn't happen, unless you were theer and inside
Martin or even Zimmerman's head at the time.

As demonstrated above,
- your misinformation of the actual laws that apply or not are
wrong. - your speculations of what may have happened versus
that data that is
available is also wrong
Since I based my scenarios on the information available and a
correct application of which statute is most applicable, I'm quite
confident that I'm closer to the correct conclusion


As a closing note, the special prosecutor appointed by the
Governor has chosen NOT to convene a Grand Jury.
Considering that any decent prosecutor could get a ham sandwich
indicted by a Grand Jury, that raises a serious question as to why
she has decided not to do so.



WRONG, Closed mind.

PKB

As a closing note, you are wrong about everything - Z is charged with
2nd degree MURDER. No Grand Jury was convened because the prosecutor
felt there was enough evidence to support her charges - and she has
an excellent record in getting convictions.

No GJ was convened because they couldn't even produce a ham sandwich. She has
an excellent political record but she's going to lose this one. It won't even
go to trial, unless they find a judge that is in election trouble too.

[[email protected]]

On 14 Apr 2012 07:27:08 GMT, J Carter wrote:

"Attila.Iskander" wrote in
:


"bob haller" wrote in message
.
com...
On Apr 10, 10:17 am, "Attila.Iskander"
wrote:
"Ron" wrote in message


s.com...





On Apr 9, 12:35 am, "Attila.Iskander"
wrote:
"Ron" wrote in message

Why don't you just copy and paste what I wrote next time?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...msg/5eb5dd2fcf
39525e

Why should I ?
Anyone with more than 2 ounces of grey matter, except for
those who choose to be willfully ignorant, should have no
trouble Googling for "Kobe Bryant
broken nose".

You parroted ALL THREE of the comments that I made, not just
the Kobe comment.

yawn
Clearly you have a problem with the notion that others may have
used OTHER
sources and come to the same conclusion
Apparently you're ego needs assuaging for you to believe
that I parroted you.
Whatever turns your crank, bubby.

And by the way, booby.
If you go back you will find that I actually went out and cited
different sources for both the Kobe Bryant story AND blood flow
from injuries to nose and head.
But if you need to believe that I was actually "parroting" you.
Well that no skin off my back..

zimmerman has started a defense fund and is looking for
donations...


Good for him
Considering how the media tried to lynch him with the way it
portrayed him and edited the 911 call to make him look like a
racist, while glossing over Martin's background..
I might even contribute

Put your money where your mouth is.
Let's see, from your posts and as sure as you are about this case,
you should give Z $1000 to show your absolute knowledge of his
innocence.

The above post makes about as much sense as the rest of yours.

[Attila.Iskander]

"J Carter" wrote in message
.. .
"Attila.Iskander" wrote in
:


"bob haller" wrote in message
.
com...
On Apr 10, 10:17 am, "Attila.Iskander"
wrote:
"Ron" wrote in message


s.com...





On Apr 9, 12:35 am, "Attila.Iskander"
wrote:
"Ron" wrote in message

Why don't you just copy and paste what I wrote next time?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...msg/5eb5dd2fcf
39525e

Why should I ?
Anyone with more than 2 ounces of grey matter, except for
those who choose to be willfully ignorant, should have no
trouble Googling for "Kobe Bryant
broken nose".

You parroted ALL THREE of the comments that I made, not just
the Kobe comment.

yawn
Clearly you have a problem with the notion that others may have
used OTHER
sources and come to the same conclusion
Apparently you're ego needs assuaging for you to believe
that I parroted you.
Whatever turns your crank, bubby.

And by the way, booby.
If you go back you will find that I actually went out and cited
different sources for both the Kobe Bryant story AND blood flow
from injuries to nose and head.
But if you need to believe that I was actually "parroting" you.
Well that no skin off my back..

zimmerman has started a defense fund and is looking for
donations...


Good for him
Considering how the media tried to lynch him with the way it
portrayed him and edited the 911 call to make him look like a
racist, while glossing over Martin's background..
I might even contribute

Put your money where your mouth is.

NAH!
Didn't your mommy teach you that money, being handled by all kinds of
people, including such as you, is not the cleanest thing around ?/

Let's see, from your posts and as sure as you are about this case,
you should give Z $1000 to show your absolute knowledge of his
innocence.

YAWN
After you alphonse

[Attila.Iskander]

"J Carter" wrote in message
.. .
" wrote in

m:

On Apr 5, 12:27 am, "Robert Green"
wrote:

There's a concept in liability law about who has the "last clear
chance t o prevent an accident." This was not a guy on his way
home accosted by muggers, this was someone who engaged in
confrontational behavior while armed on what seems to be a fairly
regular basis. Trouble was bound to happen. I'm going to be most
interested in what Z considered suspicious about M.


There you go again, reaching conclusions not supported by any
of the available evidence. Show us evidence that Zimmerman
engaged in "confrontational behaviour while armed on a regular
basis." Show us evidence that he engaged in confrontational
behavior in the Martin case.


Members of this group will be shown nothing - see what happens in a
court of law where names have faces and are sworn to tell the truth.
No one but the attorneys will be making statements, and their
statements will be based on fact, not conjecture.
The prosecutor has all the information and has charged Z accorfing to
the evidence at hand.

ONLY if the intent was to prosecute
If the intent was to calm the waters and soothe the race-baiters, then it
doesn't matter if there is no evidence to support the charges, since a few
months down the line the charges will be dropped very quietly.

[Attila.Iskander]

"J Carter" wrote in message
.. .
"Attila.Iskander" wrote in
:


"J Carter" wrote in message
...
"Attila.Iskander" wrote in
:


"J Carter" wrote in message
.. .

I am not advocating this, but consider:
What if Martin, seing he was being followed, had fear for his
life?

Why would he have "fear for his life" ??
Possibly explainable if he was trading dope and his supplier
was after him.



BAD ASSUMPTION
What makes you think that a drug dealer is the only one who would
fear for his life if being followed at night with no one else
around?


NOT an "assumption", but a POSSIBLE EXPLANATION
(Please try to read for COMPREHENSION)


But let's look more closely at the claim that he was in "fear of
his life" Trayvon being a teenager, was far more likely to believe
that he was immortal and that he could overcome anything
He was within easy distance of where he was staying
He was young and healthy, and more than likely able to outrun just
about anything that followed him
So you give me one reason why he would have cause to fear for his
life if someone were watching him or even following him AT A
DISTANCE. And there is NO DATA suggesting that he even tried.
And CLEARLY, if he turned around and confronted Zimmerman, he
was NOT in
fear of his life.



If Sanford has as much crime as some other posters (one who lived
ther-so many posts ago, I can't recall his name) have stated, a
person does not have to be dis-obeying the law to be afraid when
being followed at night.


More assumptions on YOUR part


Situations are not always cut-and-dried as your staements would
have us believe. There are other explanations that have as much
credibility as yours.


So sorry that your lack of reading comprehension leads you into
error..



He would then have grounds under SYG.

Nope
He would not


I think SYG does allow anyone who believes his life is being
threatened may use deadly force to defend himself.That's exactly
what Z stated he feared and did. You stated NOPE since you felt
Martin was acting unlawfully - which I don't think is covered
under SYG and theefore would not. On this you are correct.


Please inform yourself instead of "thinking"
Your thinking is more presumption than actual logical process.

SYG has NOTHING to do with the basic right to self-defense, AND
THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE,
A right which is recognized by Statute if not precedent in (to the
best of my knowledge) all 50 states.

SYG variants around the country EXTEND that basic right in a
variety of ways a) by removing the need to retreat if assaulted
in a public place b) forcing the state to show that
sell-defense was not applicable c) possibly protecting you from
civil lawsuits even though your use of deadly force was justified.

IF per the information we have available from Zimmerman and the
witness Zimmerman was confronted and assaulted by Martin
Zimmerman was on the ground with Martin on him
SYG does NOT apply,
But the statute about use of deadly force does.





I'll stop here
Since the first part of the fantasy is false, so is the rest.



Remember, your conclusions and expalnatiopns are not the absolute
end-all explanation for sutiations. WHat you call a false
fantasy has as much validity as any of your statements. No one
can detrmine what's in anohter person's mind under these
conditions.


Actually NOT
My conclusions are the best possible one based on the data
available and in the context of the laws that apply
You can NOT make the same claim


I do not say that is what happened, but there is no way you can
say it can't or didn't happen, unless you were theer and inside
Martin or even Zimmerman's head at the time.

As demonstrated above,
- your misinformation of the actual laws that apply or not are
wrong. - your speculations of what may have happened versus
that data that is
available is also wrong
Since I based my scenarios on the information available and a
correct application of which statute is most applicable, I'm quite
confident that I'm closer to the correct conclusion


As a closing note, the special prosecutor appointed by the
Governor has chosen NOT to convene a Grand Jury.
Considering that any decent prosecutor could get a ham sandwich
indicted by a Grand Jury, that raises a serious question as to why
she has decided not to do so.



WRONG, Closed mind.
As a closing note, you are wrong about everything - Z is charged with
2nd degree MURDER. No Grand Jury was convened because the prosecutor
felt there was enough evidence to support her charges - and she has
an excellent record in getting convictions.

LOL
Naturally you just ignore all the arguments and accuse me of a "closed
mind".
You can't even argue your position with any intelligence.
The only thing you can do is an appeal to authority

You should read what Alan Dershowitz had to say about the affidavit that was
submitted
..http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vid...unethical.html

[Michael Dobony]

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 02:11:18 -0400, Robert Green wrote:

"Oren" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:45:54 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

Those are excellent reasons to suspect the first rather superficial pass
at
the evidence. That kind of horrible police work is endemic to small town
PDs. It takes money to hire competent detectives and forensic techs and
most small jurisdictions don't have it.

Florida has the FDLE

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content/home.aspx

State funded, great support to local agencies.

Sate and local agree on things. What a shock.

Apparently not. The state investigators seem to have found something to
spur a murder two indictment that the local Sanford investigators didn't
find. No surprise there and to my mind indicates a rewrite of the law to
require a state investigation into any SYG case. Bones will have to be
thrown, and you know it. (-:

Or were state investigators pressured by Satan's Reverend Jesse Jackson or
Al Sharpton and the public outcry these two jerks invented?

As I recall witness saw M on top of Z in the general vicinity of Z's
vehicle, NOT stalking M. This puts serious doubts of second degree murder
and strong evidence for self defense. Realistically, the only ones who will
have all the facts are the prosecutors and the defense attorneys. Too many
times one party or the other demands and gets evidence removed from the
courtroom. The press will of course twist the evidence as they did in the
Kobe Bryant and the Duke Lacrosse rape cases.

[Oren[_2_]]

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 16:11:54 -0500, Michael Dobony
wrote:

As I recall witness saw M on top of Z in the general vicinity of Z's
vehicle, NOT stalking M. This puts serious doubts of second degree murder
and strong evidence for self defense. Realistically, the only ones who will
have all the facts are the prosecutors and the defense attorneys. Too many
times one party or the other demands and gets evidence removed from the
courtroom. The press will of course twist the evidence as they did in the
Kobe Bryant and the Duke Lacrosse rape cases.


Z will get two bites of the self defense apple.

1st bite will be at the hearing claiming immunity before the judge.
The judge can toss the case or bind it to trial.

2nd bite is his claim of self defense before the jury.

I read numerous legal minds are shocked or surprised charges were
brought forth in the first place, based on the charging document.

[[email protected]]

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 14:52:58 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 16:11:54 -0500, Michael Dobony
wrote:

As I recall witness saw M on top of Z in the general vicinity of Z's
vehicle, NOT stalking M. This puts serious doubts of second degree murder
and strong evidence for self defense. Realistically, the only ones who will
have all the facts are the prosecutors and the defense attorneys. Too many
times one party or the other demands and gets evidence removed from the
courtroom. The press will of course twist the evidence as they did in the
Kobe Bryant and the Duke Lacrosse rape cases.


Z will get two bites of the self defense apple.

1st bite will be at the hearing claiming immunity before the judge.
The judge can toss the case or bind it to trial.

2nd bite is his claim of self defense before the jury.

I read numerous legal minds are shocked or surprised charges were
brought forth in the first place, based on the charging document.

Alan Dershowitz' comments were priceless.

[Oren[_2_]]

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 20:52:30 -0400, "
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 14:52:58 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 16:11:54 -0500, Michael Dobony
wrote:

As I recall witness saw M on top of Z in the general vicinity of Z's
vehicle, NOT stalking M. This puts serious doubts of second degree murder
and strong evidence for self defense. Realistically, the only ones who will
have all the facts are the prosecutors and the defense attorneys. Too many
times one party or the other demands and gets evidence removed from the
courtroom. The press will of course twist the evidence as they did in the
Kobe Bryant and the Duke Lacrosse rape cases.


Z will get two bites of the self defense apple.

1st bite will be at the hearing claiming immunity before the judge.
The judge can toss the case or bind it to trial.

2nd bite is his claim of self defense before the jury.

I read numerous legal minds are shocked or surprised charges were
brought forth in the first place, based on the charging document.

Alan Dershowitz' comments were priceless.

"..."It's a stretch charge," from a Miami attorney. Similar from an
Orlando attorney... ""I don't really think that there's probable cause
to support [second-degree murder] at all," Hornsby said. He said the
charge looks like an attempt to "appease the public" and create
leverage for the state."

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-14/news/os-george-zimmerman-2nd-degree-murder-20120414_1_manslaughter-charge-craig-sandhaus-second-degree-murder

No worry, HLN's Nancy Grace is on the case!

[The Daring Dufas[_7_]]

On 4/12/2012 3:04 PM, Attila.Iskander wrote:

"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...

Why is not national news when a Negro murders a Caucasian? o_O

Did you forget about OJ? That seemed to make the news in my town. (-:


Considering that blacks kill whites twice as often as vice-versa, while
blacks represent 1/6th of the white population, it's actually
mind-boggling that there is so little reporting of black on white homicide.
It's just that it's so danged politically incorrect.



My neighbor and his wife are Negro Americans and they have six little
kids who are over at my house all the time and my favorite is the baby
girl who's about four and she cracks me up when I talk to her. They're
my little buddies and I would be inclined to rip someone's head off if
they were to harm one of my little friends. I help my neighbors and we
look out for each other and there's no hesitation when either of us asks
the other for a hand with something. The kids are as wild as any other
little kids but not thugs because they have both parents at home and
when I told their dad that I was impressed with how polite the kids
were, he told me that's how he raised them. That's something that's a
factor in all families regardless of their ancestry. I'm bothered when
I see kids growing up without both parents because in my opinion, little
boys are savages who need a father to tame them and prevent them from
becoming thugs and predators when they find a substitute for a father in
something like a gang. o_O

TDD

[Michael Dobony]

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 18:13:11 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 20:52:30 -0400, "
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 14:52:58 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 16:11:54 -0500, Michael Dobony
wrote:

As I recall witness saw M on top of Z in the general vicinity of Z's
vehicle, NOT stalking M. This puts serious doubts of second degree murder
and strong evidence for self defense. Realistically, the only ones who will
have all the facts are the prosecutors and the defense attorneys. Too many
times one party or the other demands and gets evidence removed from the
courtroom. The press will of course twist the evidence as they did in the
Kobe Bryant and the Duke Lacrosse rape cases.


Z will get two bites of the self defense apple.

1st bite will be at the hearing claiming immunity before the judge.
The judge can toss the case or bind it to trial.

2nd bite is his claim of self defense before the jury.

I read numerous legal minds are shocked or surprised charges were
brought forth in the first place, based on the charging document.

Alan Dershowitz' comments were priceless.

"..."It's a stretch charge," from a Miami attorney. Similar from an
Orlando attorney... ""I don't really think that there's probable cause
to support [second-degree murder] at all," Hornsby said. He said the
charge looks like an attempt to "appease the public" and create
leverage for the state."

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-14/news/os-george-zimmerman-2nd-degree-murder-20120414_1_manslaughter-charge-craig-sandhaus-second-degree-murder

No worry, HLN's Nancy Grace is on the case!

remember the charges in the subway shooting case about a decade ago? The
victim shot his assailants and one was paralyzed. In a civil case the
mugger won, claiming he can't work because of the victim's response to his
assault.

[Stormin Mormon[_7_]]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Getz

Expected occupational hazzard?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Michael Dobony" wrote in message

remember the charges in the subway shooting case
about a decade ago? The victim shot his assailants and
one was paralyzed. In a civil case the mugger won,
claiming he can't work because of the victim's
response to his assault.

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 11:03:35 -0500, Michael Dobony
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 18:13:11 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 20:52:30 -0400, "
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 14:52:58 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 16:11:54 -0500, Michael Dobony
wrote:

As I recall witness saw M on top of Z in the general vicinity of Z's
vehicle, NOT stalking M. This puts serious doubts of second degree murder
and strong evidence for self defense. Realistically, the only ones who will
have all the facts are the prosecutors and the defense attorneys. Too many
times one party or the other demands and gets evidence removed from the
courtroom. The press will of course twist the evidence as they did in the
Kobe Bryant and the Duke Lacrosse rape cases.


Z will get two bites of the self defense apple.

1st bite will be at the hearing claiming immunity before the judge.
The judge can toss the case or bind it to trial.

2nd bite is his claim of self defense before the jury.

I read numerous legal minds are shocked or surprised charges were
brought forth in the first place, based on the charging document.

Alan Dershowitz' comments were priceless.

"..."It's a stretch charge," from a Miami attorney. Similar from an
Orlando attorney... ""I don't really think that there's probable cause
to support [second-degree murder] at all," Hornsby said. He said the
charge looks like an attempt to "appease the public" and create
leverage for the state."

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-14/news/os-george-zimmerman-2nd-degree-murder-20120414_1_manslaughter-charge-craig-sandhaus-second-degree-murder

No worry, HLN's Nancy Grace is on the case!

remember the charges in the subway shooting case about a decade ago? The
victim shot his assailants and one was paralyzed. In a civil case the
mugger won, claiming he can't work because of the victim's response to his
assault.

Another good reason for SYG to be universal.

[Han]

" wrote in
:

On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 11:03:35 -0500, Michael Dobony
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 18:13:11 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 20:52:30 -0400, "
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 14:52:58 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 16:11:54 -0500, Michael Dobony
wrote:

As I recall witness saw M on top of Z in the general vicinity of
Z's vehicle, NOT stalking M. This puts serious doubts of second
degree murder and strong evidence for self defense. Realistically,
the only ones who will have all the facts are the prosecutors and
the defense attorneys. Too many times one party or the other
demands and gets evidence removed from the courtroom. The press
will of course twist the evidence as they did in the Kobe Bryant
and the Duke Lacrosse rape cases.


Z will get two bites of the self defense apple.

1st bite will be at the hearing claiming immunity before the judge.
The judge can toss the case or bind it to trial.

2nd bite is his claim of self defense before the jury.

I read numerous legal minds are shocked or surprised charges were
brought forth in the first place, based on the charging document.

Alan Dershowitz' comments were priceless.

"..."It's a stretch charge," from a Miami attorney. Similar from an
Orlando attorney... ""I don't really think that there's probable
cause to support [second-degree murder] at all," Hornsby said. He
said the charge looks like an attempt to "appease the public" and
create leverage for the state."

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...-george-zimmer
man-2nd-degree-murder-20120414_1_manslaughter-charge-craig-sandhaus-s
econd-degree-murder

No worry, HLN's Nancy Grace is on the case!

remember the charges in the subway shooting case about a decade ago?
The victim shot his assailants and one was paralyzed. In a civil case
the mugger won, claiming he can't work because of the victim's
response to his assault.

Another good reason for SYG to be universal.

Nonsense. Yes, Bernie's assailants got what they deserved, but given the
crime rate in the NYC subway system (rather low since the crackdown on
petty criminals/harassers) it would have happened more often since and
before Bernie, if it was effective. OTOH, given how crowded the subways
are, shootings inside cars would really create tremendous collateral
damage. Please, no guns in the subways and buses of NYC, except for
well-trained professionals.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

[The Daring Dufas[_7_]]

On 4/18/2012 11:41 AM, Han wrote:
z wrote in
:

On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 11:03:35 -0500, Michael Dobony
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 18:13:11 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 20:52:30 -0400, "
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 14:52:58 -0700, wrote:

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 16:11:54 -0500, Michael Dobony
wrote:

As I recall witness saw M on top of Z in the general vicinity of
Z's vehicle, NOT stalking M. This puts serious doubts of second
degree murder and strong evidence for self defense. Realistically,
the only ones who will have all the facts are the prosecutors and
the defense attorneys. Too many times one party or the other
demands and gets evidence removed from the courtroom. The press
will of course twist the evidence as they did in the Kobe Bryant
and the Duke Lacrosse rape cases.


Z will get two bites of the self defense apple.

1st bite will be at the hearing claiming immunity before the judge.
The judge can toss the case or bind it to trial.

2nd bite is his claim of self defense before the jury.

I read numerous legal minds are shocked or surprised charges were
brought forth in the first place, based on the charging document.

Alan Dershowitz' comments were priceless.

"..."It's a stretch charge," from a Miami attorney. Similar from an
Orlando attorney... ""I don't really think that there's probable
cause to support [second-degree murder] at all," Hornsby said. He
said the charge looks like an attempt to "appease the public" and
create leverage for the state."

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...-george-zimmer
man-2nd-degree-murder-20120414_1_manslaughter-charge-craig-sandhaus-s
econd-degree-murder

No worry, HLN's Nancy Grace is on the case!

remember the charges in the subway shooting case about a decade ago?
The victim shot his assailants and one was paralyzed. In a civil case
the mugger won, claiming he can't work because of the victim's
response to his assault.

Another good reason for SYG to be universal.

Nonsense. Yes, Bernie's assailants got what they deserved, but given the
crime rate in the NYC subway system (rather low since the crackdown on
petty criminals/harassers) it would have happened more often since and
before Bernie, if it was effective. OTOH, given how crowded the subways
are, shootings inside cars would really create tremendous collateral
damage. Please, no guns in the subways and buses of NYC, except for
well-trained professionals.


From what I've heard, well trained professionals are more prone to
shoot innocent bystanders than citizens with a concealed carry license.
Figure that one out. o_O

TDD

[Oren[_2_]]

On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 11:03:35 -0500, Michael Dobony
wrote:

The
victim shot his assailants and one was paralyzed. In a civil case the
mugger won, claiming he can't work because of the victim's response to his
assault.

There should've been a law like SYG in Florida. Immunity from any
civil liability.

[Oren[_2_]]

On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 12:32:02 -0400, "
wrote:

remember the charges in the subway shooting case about a decade ago? The
victim shot his assailants and one was paralyzed. In a civil case the
mugger won, claiming he can't work because of the victim's response to his
assault.

Another good reason for SYG to be universal.

To be universal each state needs to provide for immunity from
prosecution AND civil liability. Nevada this past year almost got
this far. One step away from being a _real_ Castle Doctrine state.

Oh, Z gets a new judge assigned to the case today.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-18/news/os-george-zimmerman-judge-steps-aside-20120418_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-murder-case-new-judge

He is said to a be a law and order man and follows the law and has
control of his court room!

Heck, he once gave two death sentences and one life in prison sentence
to just one creature. hooah

I see the law in Z's favor. We'll know more Friday at his hearing.

[Oren[_2_]]

On 18 Apr 2012 16:41:14 GMT, Han wrote:

Please, no guns in the subways and buses of NYC, except for
well-trained professionals.

Almost right. Issue a gun to each passenger when they board the
train. Collect the guns when the passenger disembarks the train.

Cuts down on all the havoc, so people are treated "fair".

[Han]

The Daring Dufas wrote in news:jmng2g$kr6$1
@dont-email.me:

From what I've heard, well trained professionals are more prone to
shoot innocent bystanders than citizens with a concealed carry license.
Figure that one out. o_O

That sounds like a contradiction. If they are indeed well-trained
professionals, then they should be better than or equivalent to citizens
with conceiled carry licenses, obviously given equivalent conditions.
Maybe (no, surely) some well-trained professionals need more training.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

[Han]

Oren wrote in news:uciuo7d6kfmq3njpe4akf59reblsis50d6@
4ax.com:

On 18 Apr 2012 16:41:14 GMT, Han wrote:

Please, no guns in the subways and buses of NYC, except for
well-trained professionals.

Almost right. Issue a gun to each passenger when they board the
train. Collect the guns when the passenger disembarks the train.

Cuts down on all the havoc, so people are treated "fair".

Have you ever tried to get something from a native New Yorker what he
really didn't want to give up?

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid