In article ,
wrote:
On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 17:46:14 -0500, RBM wrote:



As gfretwell points out, you can't properly wire your boiler to a cord
and plug. To do what you want, properly, you'll need one of these:


http://www.wayfair.com/Reliance-Cont...d=FR49-RLC1017

The job will take less than an hour and the typical service charge for
that time, in your area will be around $150


I've seen furnaces connected with a twist-lock plug - it meets the
requirement for a disconnect within reach of the furnace.(takes the
place of a switch) and is also a foolproof way of connecting to a
genset.


OK, but how to attach the (male) twist-lock plug to the end of my
100' #12 extension cord?

Thanks,

David

In article ,
zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

Your furnace is plugged into an outlet? Never seen that.

The $.50 outlets (are they that expensive now?) aren't all that bad for places
where there are few insertion cycles. Kitchens, hallways, and the like where
they're used a lot, should have spec or even hospital grade outlets.



Not now -- but that situation (furnace pluged into an outlet) is what
I *WANT* -- so when the neighborhood power goes out, and it's 15F outside,
I can UNplug the furnace from the wall and PLUG it into a heavy-duty
extension-cord that goes to my little electric generator -- which I'd
run for half an hour every two hours or so to keep the house warm and
(via 2nd extension cord to the generator) the refrigerator cold.


David

In article ,
wrote:


AND - using a 20 amp plug would ENSURE the furnace would not be
connected to the genset with an 18 guage extention cord.

Well, mine's 12gauge, but each end looks the same as on an 18.

David

In article ,
Horace Greeley wrote:
On 2/4/2012 5:04 PM, RBM wrote:

You can feel free to Rube your wiring any way you like, but the OP
wanted to know the cost to do this by a professional, and a professional
is going to follow the rules of the Nec.

Actually, you're wrong. It's up to the AHJ and in my (and many)
location, a cord and plug is an acceptable and safe method of connecting
a gas furnace. There is nothing Rube or unsafe about it.

What's the "AHJ"?

FYI: I'm in New York State, Westchester County (south edge borders NYC).

David

In article ,
wrote:


That's only the "B" part.
There IS another allowed reason.

422.16 Flexible Cords.
(A) General. Flexible cord shall be permitted (1) for the
connection of appliances to facilitate their frequent interchange
or to prevent the transmission of noise or vibration


A power failure every year or less can be considered "frequent
interchange". - if you don't wish to make a case for anti-vibration
(and you do not have a "compliant connection" or whatever you call the
fabric connector on the duct hood.


HEY, I LIKE THAT!!!

David

In article ,
wrote:
On 2 Feb 2012 15:08:43 -0500, (David Combs) wrote:

Here's what I want to do.

I've got steam/boiler heater, runs on gas, the only electricty
needed is to run the (solenoid?) thermostat, basically.

It's powered via a cable (covered in flexible metal tubing)
that connects into the wall 110-AC line.

What I want to do is get that changed from that direct connection
to the wall, to instead end in a grounded male plug.

This solenoid is most likely operated by a transformer with a secondary
voltage of around 24 volts.

Working on low voltage wiring is easy to do and should not need to
follow a lot of codes. Therefore, the simple solution is to not touch
the AC supply voltage at all. Instead, buy an extra transformer to be
powered from the generator. Install a DPDT (Double pole double throw)
switch in a box, and connect this to secondary of both transformers.
When the switch is flipped in one direction, the furnace will run the
transformer from the power line. When flipped the other way, it will
run from the generator. Label the switch so you know which way to flip
the switch.

You can buy a switch like this at Radio Shack. You can also buy small
aluminum boxes there to install it after drilling some holes in the box
for the switch and the wires. A DPDT switch has 6 terminals on the
back. The 2 middle ones go to the 2 wires going to the furnace. The 2
terminals on the left go to the transformer from the generator, the two
on the right go to the 2 wires from the line powered transformer.

Find a buddy who plays around with electronics to help if you need help.
There are ham radio guys and electronics experimenters all over the
country. Maybe the Radio Shack clerk knows of someone, or call a few
local TV repair shops.

Be sure to buy a transformer MADE for your furnace. Call a furnace
repair shop.

Problem solved!


Man, that's sure an interesting approach!

David

In article ,
Nate Nagel wrote:
On 02/02/2012 06:16 PM, wrote:
....

Problem solved!


if you do that make sure the switch is a DPDT center-off switch, or at a
bare minimum break before make. xfmrs can backfeed and that wouldn't be
safe

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel


OK -- long, long ago *I* was a "ham" (but got bored because
all that the people talked about was their equipment. But
of course if I had *designed* and built my own transmitter,
I wouldn't be bored, but fascinated!)

So I know what a DPDT switch is OK.

But what's a "center-off" one?

Or, at bare minimum, a "break before make"? (Well, that one
seems self-evident. Question: aren't ALL dbl-throw switches
break before make? I guess not. Please elaborate.)


Thanks!

David

In article , RBM wrote:
On 2/2/2012 6:27 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:

It's a moot point. The OP has a draft inducer in the system which needs
120 volts

Thanks for mentioning that.

Well, right now that fan is not *in* the system -- it's directly
wired to the wall, and is on ALL THE TIME -- all four seasons.

(That was the strong advice of the plumber.)


Now, not only is having it running all the time going to
wear out a lot sooner, but motors take more than a few
watts. 24/7/52 can add up to a *LOT* of money.

(I just read an article somewhere that claimed that
running a not-too-big fan 100% of the time came
to $5,000 per year! Even if that's exaggerated, it's
still probably over $1,000. Should get close and see
if I can read the watts rating.)

Anyway, I think (unless you guys say not to) I'd like
that fan to run only when the furnace is "on" (burning
gas). Now, that would require some kind of solenoid-switch
controlled by the same circuit that controls the opening
of the gas-line into the burner, probably working at the
same voltage as THAT (gas) solenoid, with at 110v switch
open and closed by the new solenoid.

Hmmm. That controlled-switch would be inserted in
the middle of the current power-line going from the
wall to the fan.

So there'd *still* be no *electrical* connection between
the fan and the furnace.

Now, it'd sure be nice if the current "oompf" controlling
the gas-solenoid was strong enough to also control
the second one! Would make life a lot easier than it
might otherwise be.

(My "oompf" -- what's the correct terminology (or concept)
for that. I guess it would be a perfectly, infinitely
constant voltage source, regardless of the amps or load
put on it.)


So maybe the "above" response is NOT a moot point, after all!


Hey, thanks for making me think!


David

In article ,
micky wrote:

....


I whined and he sold me a 24 volt transformer for maybe 30 dollars**,.
AFAIK all that is necessary is that it be 24 volts and big enough, to
power the furnace controls and the AC controls. Since the AC
compressor is on a separate cirucit, and the furnace air circulation
fan are on separate cirucits from the 24 volt control circuit, the
transformer doesn't have to be that big. Are you sure it has to be
made for the furnace? In my case it was a generic 24 volt
transformer, and I probably could have gotten it for less than the 20
or 30 dollars I paid at Radio Shack if they had one big enough, that
is, not a wall wart, not universal, and enough amps.


"Wall wart". I tried using that term with an electrician. Had no
idea what I was talking about. (I thought it was a universally used term.)


**I'm still using the same transformer 28 years later. It was too big


I bought a Radio Shack VOM (5" high, 4 wide, maybe 1.3 thick) back in
the 60's. Beautiful -- works like a charm. Still the best one I have --
*way* better than these new electronic ones.

The absolute crap RS has been selling for the last, what, 20 years?,
what absolute garbage. (At least the stuff with the Radio Shack label.)

NO WONDER they seem to be going under.

Wait -- let me go do a wikipedia on them...

Here's the table of contents for the wikipedia article:



Contents [hide]
1 History
1.1 The first 40 years
1.2 Tandy Corporation
1.3 RadioShack Corporation
1.4 "Fix 1500" initiative
1.5 CEO résumé scandal
1.6 New strategy
1.7 Corporate layoffs
1.8 PointMobl
1.9 Customer relations
2 International operations
2.1 Operations in Canada
2.1.1 Pre-2005
2.1.2 Post-2005
2.2 Operations in Australia
2.3 Operations in France
2.4 Operations in Belgium
3 Other operations
3.1 Corporate citizenship
3.2 RadioShack and other retailer partnerships
3.3 RadioShack cycling team
4 Corporate headquarters
5 References
6 Further reading
7 External links



I was looking for an LBO or something, but didn't see one.

But I did see this:

| Customer relations
|
| RadioShack and the Better Business Bureau of Fort Worth, Texas
| met on April 23, 2009 to discuss the condition of their file and
| the number of unanswered and unresolved complaints. At this time
| RadioShack had the grade of "F" and was not listed as a BBB
| Accredited business. The company is now working on a plan of
| action to address the existing and future customer service
| issues. Part of this plan is already visible in stores which are
| now required to post a sign with the District Manager's name and
| the question "How Are We Doing?" The sign also includes a direct
| toll-free number to the district office for an area and every
| office has received a unique phone number. RadioShackHelp.com has
| also been created as another portal for customers to resolve
| their issues through the internet. As of May 29, 2009, the BBB
| has upgraded RadioShack from an "F" to a "C-" rating.[16]


Good ole WIKIPEDIA! What an amazing site! Math, physics, history,
literature, you name it, it's there, and GOOD, too. (maybe not
for some "controversial" subjects (Israel v Palestineans?) where
it'd be hacked every 10 minutes!)


About RS: Suppose they just went back to QUALITY, QUALITY, QUALITY,
at a decent price. I'd sure like that!

(No more "radio row" (Canal Street, NYC) of the 60's and earlier --
no more Allied Radio -- it's RS or nothing, seems to me.)


David

In article , RBM wrote:
On 2/3/2012 5:01 AM, micky wrote:

This is not a furnace, or furnace/AC, it's a steam boiler, and a crude
one at that. The 24 volt gas valve is controlled by the wall thermostat.
There is a pressure switch or switches that limit the steam. That's it,
no ignitor, it's standing pilot, but he does have a draft inducer fan
that needs line voltage.


Looks like I need some education he

What's a "furnace" vs a "steam boiler"?

The thing we have is this big boiler, I guess, with a pipe
going (out of the top, I think) *up*, to the floors above.

Provides zero heat (via hot water or steam or whatever) to
the same floor (basement) it is sited in.

Now, what's a "furnace", and how does it differ?


Finally, what's a "furnace/AC". I suppose that's one
of those horrible! "heat only via hot air" things that
uses the same air-conduits for hot or cold air.

("horrible", because there's no heat via *radiation* --
just via conduction from nauseatingly-hot air surrounding
your (clothed, ie insulated from the hot air) body,
WHILE at the same time your body has net OUTWARD radiation
to the windows and, in old houses, walls. OK for Florida,
*maybe*, but a real loser for anywhere it gets cold.)


David

On 2/6/2012 3:32 PM, David Combs wrote:
In , wrote:
On 2/3/2012 5:01 AM, micky wrote:

This is not a furnace, or furnace/AC, it's a steam boiler, and a crude
one at that. The 24 volt gas valve is controlled by the wall thermostat.
There is a pressure switch or switches that limit the steam. That's it,
no ignitor, it's standing pilot, but he does have a draft inducer fan
that needs line voltage.


Looks like I need some education he

What's a "furnace" vs a "steam boiler"?

The thing we have is this big boiler, I guess, with a pipe
going (out of the top, I think) *up*, to the floors above.

Provides zero heat (via hot water or steam or whatever) to
the same floor (basement) it is sited in.

Now, what's a "furnace", and how does it differ?


Finally, what's a "furnace/AC". I suppose that's one
of those horrible! "heat only via hot air" things that
uses the same air-conduits for hot or cold air.

("horrible", because there's no heat via *radiation* --
just via conduction from nauseatingly-hot air surrounding
your (clothed, ie insulated from the hot air) body,
WHILE at the same time your body has net OUTWARD radiation
to the windows and, in old houses, walls. OK for Florida,
*maybe*, but a real loser for anywhere it gets cold.)


David


A boiler heats water, a furnace heats air. You have a basic steam boiler
with a 24 volt gas valve. The draft inducer you have, was not installed
properly, probably because it was done by a plumber. The typical draft
inducer setup is that the fan gets a constant feed of 120 volts, and in
your situation it gets a 24 volt control circuit that intercepts the
power from going to the gas valve until the inducer is running, then it
allows the 24 volts to continue to the gas valve. The unit may or may
not have a post purge, which would allow the fan to continue to run for
a few seconds after the burner stops, to evacuate the flue pipe.
All of this can be wired to a generator transfer device. I doubt any
local electricians are going to just install an outlet and plug for you

On 2/6/2012 11:27 AM, David Combs wrote:
In ,
wrote:


AND - using a 20 amp plug would ENSURE the furnace would not be
connected to the genset with an 18 guage extention cord.

Well, mine's 12gauge, but each end looks the same as on an 18.

David


You notice that!! That's the kind in nonsense you get when amateurs
play electrician

I've seen furnaces connected with a twist-lock plug - it meets the
requirement for a disconnect within reach of the furnace.(takes the
place of a switch) and is also a foolproof way of connecting to a
genset.


OK, but how to attach the (male) twist-lock plug to the end of my
100' #12 extension cord?

Thanks,

David



This person is in Canada, and assumes you have a generator with a twist
lok outlet on it, and assumes that this wiring meets boiler code in your
particular area, which I can tell you unequivocally, it does not

On 2/6/12 10:30 AM, David Combs wrote:

What's the "AHJ"?

FYI: I'm in New York State, Westchester County (south edge borders NYC).

David


Authority Having Jurisdiction. Basically, the local building
and/or electrical inspector.

On Mon, 6 Feb 2012 19:24:49 +0000 (UTC), (David
Combs) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
On 2 Feb 2012 15:08:43 -0500, (David Combs) wrote:

Here's what I want to do.

I've got steam/boiler heater, runs on gas, the only electricty
needed is to run the (solenoid?) thermostat, basically.

It's powered via a cable (covered in flexible metal tubing)
that connects into the wall 110-AC line.

What I want to do is get that changed from that direct connection
to the wall, to instead end in a grounded male plug.

This solenoid is most likely operated by a transformer with a secondary
voltage of around 24 volts.

Working on low voltage wiring is easy to do and should not need to
follow a lot of codes. Therefore, the simple solution is to not touch
the AC supply voltage at all. Instead, buy an extra transformer to be
powered from the generator. Install a DPDT (Double pole double throw)
switch in a box, and connect this to secondary of both transformers.
When the switch is flipped in one direction, the furnace will run the
transformer from the power line. When flipped the other way, it will
run from the generator. Label the switch so you know which way to flip
the switch.

You can buy a switch like this at Radio Shack. You can also buy small
aluminum boxes there to install it after drilling some holes in the box
for the switch and the wires. A DPDT switch has 6 terminals on the
back. The 2 middle ones go to the 2 wires going to the furnace. The 2
terminals on the left go to the transformer from the generator, the two
on the right go to the 2 wires from the line powered transformer.

Find a buddy who plays around with electronics to help if you need help.
There are ham radio guys and electronics experimenters all over the
country. Maybe the Radio Shack clerk knows of someone, or call a few
local TV repair shops.

Be sure to buy a transformer MADE for your furnace. Call a furnace
repair shop.

Problem solved!


Man, that's sure an interesting approach!

David

As long as there is no other 115 volt AC load that is definitely the
simple and "code free" way of doing it.

But if the transformer is the only load there is no reason NOT to
just use a "plug-in" transformer in the first place. The transformer
can be a "wall wart" style - which IS designed to be plugged in and
meets all the code requirements for a "plug-in" connection for all the
chicken-littles worried about being code compliant.

Most likely a 24 volt unit - possibly an 18 volr - like a doorbell
transformer. About 2 amps secondary.
HTP2450 Honeywell is 2 amp 24 volt AC with thermal overload protection
that plugs into any 15 amp NEMA outlet.

On Mon, 6 Feb 2012 19:31:48 +0000 (UTC), (David
Combs) wrote:

In article ,
Nate Nagel wrote:
On 02/02/2012 06:16 PM, wrote:
...

Problem solved!


if you do that make sure the switch is a DPDT center-off switch, or at a
bare minimum break before make. xfmrs can backfeed and that wouldn't be
safe

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel


OK -- long, long ago *I* was a "ham" (but got bored because
all that the people talked about was their equipment. But
of course if I had *designed* and built my own transmitter,
I wouldn't be bored, but fascinated!)

So I know what a DPDT switch is OK.

But what's a "center-off" one?

Or, at bare minimum, a "break before make"? (Well, that one
seems self-evident. Question: aren't ALL dbl-throw switches
break before make? I guess not. Please elaborate.)


Thanks!

David
All NORMAL DPDT switches are break before make - some specialty
switches are make before break. A DPDT "reversing duty" switch HAS to
be break before make

On 2/6/2012 11:10 AM, David Combs wrote:
In ,
wrote:
On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 17:46:14 -0500, wrote:



As gfretwell points out, you can't properly wire your boiler to a cord
and plug. To do what you want, properly, you'll need one of these:


http://www.wayfair.com/Reliance-Cont...d=FR49-RLC1017

The job will take less than an hour and the typical service charge for
that time, in your area will be around $150


I've seen furnaces connected with a twist-lock plug - it meets the
requirement for a disconnect within reach of the furnace.(takes the
place of a switch) and is also a foolproof way of connecting to a
genset.


OK, but how to attach the (male) twist-lock plug to the end of my
100' #12 extension cord?

Thanks,

David



Amazon has them.

Leviton 2311 20 Amp, 125 Volt, NEMA L5-20P, 2P, 3W, Locking Plug,
Industrial Grade, Grounding - Black-White

Accepts 16-10 AWG Cord range: .385 - .780

On Mon, 6 Feb 2012 20:32:13 +0000 (UTC), (David
Combs) wrote:

In article , RBM wrote:
On 2/3/2012 5:01 AM, micky wrote:

This is not a furnace, or furnace/AC, it's a steam boiler, and a crude
one at that. The 24 volt gas valve is controlled by the wall thermostat.
There is a pressure switch or switches that limit the steam. That's it,
no ignitor, it's standing pilot, but he does have a draft inducer fan
that needs line voltage.


Looks like I need some education he

What's a "furnace" vs a "steam boiler"?

The thing we have is this big boiler, I guess, with a pipe
going (out of the top, I think) *up*, to the floors above.

Provides zero heat (via hot water or steam or whatever) to
the same floor (basement) it is sited in.

Now, what's a "furnace", and how does it differ?


Finally, what's a "furnace/AC". I suppose that's one
of those horrible! "heat only via hot air" things that
uses the same air-conduits for hot or cold air.

("horrible", because there's no heat via *radiation* --
just via conduction from nauseatingly-hot air surrounding
your (clothed, ie insulated from the hot air) body,
WHILE at the same time your body has net OUTWARD radiation
to the windows and, in old houses, walls. OK for Florida,
*maybe*, but a real loser for anywhere it gets cold.)


David


Forced air heat is VERY common in the cold (normally) Canadian
climate.

Radiant floor and ceiling heat works too - but hot air is "the norm" -
and it WORKS.

On Mon, 06 Feb 2012 16:48:22 -0500, RBM wrote:


I've seen furnaces connected with a twist-lock plug - it meets the
requirement for a disconnect within reach of the furnace.(takes the
place of a switch) and is also a foolproof way of connecting to a
genset.


OK, but how to attach the (male) twist-lock plug to the end of my
100' #12 extension cord?

Thanks,

David



This person is in Canada, and assumes you have a generator with a twist
lok outlet on it, and assumes that this wiring meets boiler code in your
particular area, which I can tell you unequivocally, it does not
Where is the OP?

On Mon, 06 Feb 2012 16:48:22 -0500, RBM wrote:


I've seen furnaces connected with a twist-lock plug - it meets the
requirement for a disconnect within reach of the furnace.(takes the
place of a switch) and is also a foolproof way of connecting to a
genset.


OK, but how to attach the (male) twist-lock plug to the end of my
100' #12 extension cord?

Thanks,

David



This person is in Canada, and assumes you have a generator with a twist
lok outlet on it, and assumes that this wiring meets boiler code in your
particular area, which I can tell you unequivocally, it does not
Does his (currently instaled) draft inducer pass code?

On Mon, 06 Feb 2012 16:48:22 -0500, RBM wrote:


I've seen furnaces connected with a twist-lock plug - it meets the
requirement for a disconnect within reach of the furnace.(takes the
place of a switch) and is also a foolproof way of connecting to a
genset.


OK, but how to attach the (male) twist-lock plug to the end of my
100' #12 extension cord?

Thanks,

David



This person is in Canada, and assumes you have a generator with a twist
lok outlet on it, and assumes that this wiring meets boiler code in your
particular area, which I can tell you unequivocally, it does not
Generally speaking, Canadian codes are MORE STRICT than American
codes when it comes to safety.

On 2/6/2012 6:10 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 06 Feb 2012 16:48:22 -0500, wrote:


I've seen furnaces connected with a twist-lock plug - it meets the
requirement for a disconnect within reach of the furnace.(takes the
place of a switch) and is also a foolproof way of connecting to a
genset.


OK, but how to attach the (male) twist-lock plug to the end of my
100' #12 extension cord?

Thanks,

David



This person is in Canada, and assumes you have a generator with a twist
lok outlet on it, and assumes that this wiring meets boiler code in your
particular area, which I can tell you unequivocally, it does not
Where is the OP?


New Rochelle, NY

On 2/6/2012 6:11 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 06 Feb 2012 16:48:22 -0500, wrote:


I've seen furnaces connected with a twist-lock plug - it meets the
requirement for a disconnect within reach of the furnace.(takes the
place of a switch) and is also a foolproof way of connecting to a
genset.


OK, but how to attach the (male) twist-lock plug to the end of my
100' #12 extension cord?

Thanks,

David



This person is in Canada, and assumes you have a generator with a twist
lok outlet on it, and assumes that this wiring meets boiler code in your
particular area, which I can tell you unequivocally, it does not
Does his (currently instaled) draft inducer pass code?

No, but as gfretwell pointed out, most boiler wiring, or replacement
boiler wiring is done without inspection, because there is already a C/O
on the building wiring

On 2/6/2012 6:12 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 06 Feb 2012 16:48:22 -0500, wrote:


I've seen furnaces connected with a twist-lock plug - it meets the
requirement for a disconnect within reach of the furnace.(takes the
place of a switch) and is also a foolproof way of connecting to a
genset.


OK, but how to attach the (male) twist-lock plug to the end of my
100' #12 extension cord?

Thanks,

David



This person is in Canada, and assumes you have a generator with a twist
lok outlet on it, and assumes that this wiring meets boiler code in your
particular area, which I can tell you unequivocally, it does not
Generally speaking, Canadian codes are MORE STRICT than American
codes when it comes to safety.

Nec only plays one part in the central heating system safety. We have a
variety of fire safety and life safety codes.
In the area where the OP lives: all central heating systems need a
disconnect "within sight from" the unit. This is an Nec rule. It means
within sight of, and not more than 50 feet away. If the heating system
is sitting in an open basement, there must be an additional disconnect
at the top of the stairs to the basement. If there is a boiler room, the
additional disconnect can be outside of the boiler room The idea is that
the service man kills the switch that he can see, but if the unit
shouldmalfunction, it can be killed without going near it.

On Mon, 6 Feb 2012 20:32:13 +0000 (UTC), (David
Combs) wrote:

In article , RBM wrote:
On 2/3/2012 5:01 AM, micky wrote:

This is not a furnace, or furnace/AC, it's a steam boiler, and a crude
one at that. The 24 volt gas valve is controlled by the wall thermostat.
There is a pressure switch or switches that limit the steam. That's it,
no ignitor, it's standing pilot, but he does have a draft inducer fan
that needs line voltage.


Looks like I need some education he

What's a "furnace" vs a "steam boiler"?

The thing we have is this big boiler, I guess, with a pipe
going (out of the top, I think) *up*, to the floors above.

Provides zero heat (via hot water or steam or whatever) to
the same floor (basement) it is sited in.

Now, what's a "furnace", and how does it differ?


Finally, what's a "furnace/AC". I suppose that's one
of those horrible! "heat only via hot air" things that
uses the same air-conduits for hot or cold air.

("horrible", because there's no heat via *radiation* --
just via conduction from nauseatingly-hot air surrounding
your (clothed, ie insulated from the hot air) body,
WHILE at the same time your body has net OUTWARD radiation
to the windows and, in old houses, walls. OK for Florida,
*maybe*, but a real loser for anywhere it gets cold.)


Hot air heat has been around a long time, and works in all climates.
I grew up with hot water radiators and thought them best.
Mostly because I always noticed the furnace going on in houses with
hot air. Hot water is dead quiet comparatively.
Now that I have a house with hot air I wouldn't have it otherwise.
No radiators getting in the way, and no window AC units blocking the
light. No hanging water tubs on radiators to humidify when its dry.
I got used to the furnace on/off cycle in about a week, and don't even
notice it any more.
If it cycles right, the heat is probably more even than hot water
radiators, which are slow to respond to temp changes.

--Vic

On 2/6/2012 3:41 PM, RBM wrote:
On 2/6/2012 11:27 AM, David Combs wrote:
In ,
wrote:


AND - using a 20 amp plug would ENSURE the furnace would not be
connected to the genset with an 18 guage extention cord.

Well, mine's 12gauge, but each end looks the same as on an 18.

David


You notice that!! That's the kind in nonsense you get when amateurs play
electrician

I be scared O 'lectrizity! ^_^

TDD

On Mon, 6 Feb 2012 16:20:48 +0000 (UTC), (David Combs)
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

Your furnace is plugged into an outlet? Never seen that.

The $.50 outlets (are they that expensive now?) aren't all that bad for places
where there are few insertion cycles. Kitchens, hallways, and the like where
they're used a lot, should have spec or even hospital grade outlets.



Not now -- but that situation (furnace pluged into an outlet) is what
I *WANT* -- so when the neighborhood power goes out, and it's 15F outside,
I can UNplug the furnace from the wall and PLUG it into a heavy-duty
extension-cord that goes to my little electric generator -- which I'd
run for half an hour every two hours or so to keep the house warm and
(via 2nd extension cord to the generator) the refrigerator cold.

Why don't you just do the job right?

On Mon, 6 Feb 2012 19:31:48 +0000 (UTC), (David Combs)
wrote:

In article ,
Nate Nagel wrote:
On 02/02/2012 06:16 PM, wrote:
...

Problem solved!


if you do that make sure the switch is a DPDT center-off switch, or at a
bare minimum break before make. xfmrs can backfeed and that wouldn't be
safe

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel


OK -- long, long ago *I* was a "ham" (but got bored because
all that the people talked about was their equipment. But
of course if I had *designed* and built my own transmitter,
I wouldn't be bored, but fascinated!)

So I know what a DPDT switch is OK.

But what's a "center-off" one?

The switch has a stable third state/position, in the center, where the commons
aren't connected to either of the sides.

Or, at bare minimum, a "break before make"? (Well, that one
seems self-evident. Question: aren't ALL dbl-throw switches
break before make? I guess not. Please elaborate.)

No. There are cases where you don't want an interruption between switching
from one to the other. Obviously, a switch with a "center off" is also
break-before-make.

On Sat, 4 Feb 2012 13:57:17 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:


In other words, while you're arguing and looking for ways
to make leaps in interpretation of the code to allow the
cord/receptacle, even if it were allowed, the ultimate aim,
which is to run the furnace off an extension cord to a
generator, is not allowed.

Its 5 degrees, the storm is still blowing and the power went out. Do
you give a crap about what is allowed? If it makes heat, I'm doing it
(safely).

On Sun, 5 Feb 2012 17:23:24 -0800 (PST), Evan
wrote:



The bigger issue would be bypassing the other safety
devices (kill switches, firematic cut out switch) which
exist upstream in the circuit before power ever reaches
the service switch on the boiler/furnace...

When you have the boiler/furnace powered by the
generator all of those upstream safety devices are
rendered inoperative, true they are not required in
every jurisdiction, but up here in the northern cold
parts they are...

You make a good point, but . . . . That would depend on where the cord
is mounted. They could well be downstream of the receptacle too.

On 2/6/2012 9:56 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 6 Feb 2012 16:20:48 +0000 (UTC), (David Combs)
wrote:

In ,
zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

Your furnace is plugged into an outlet? Never seen that.

The $.50 outlets (are they that expensive now?) aren't all that bad for places
where there are few insertion cycles. Kitchens, hallways, and the like where
they're used a lot, should have spec or even hospital grade outlets.



Not now -- but that situation (furnace pluged into an outlet) is what
I *WANT* -- so when the neighborhood power goes out, and it's 15F outside,
I can UNplug the furnace from the wall and PLUG it into a heavy-duty
extension-cord that goes to my little electric generator -- which I'd
run for half an hour every two hours or so to keep the house warm and
(via 2nd extension cord to the generator) the refrigerator cold.

Why don't you just do the job right?


I'm not convinced that putting a plug and cord on a gas furnace is
unsafe. Yah, I know, Barney Fife says it violates some NEC rule but is
it actually unsafe?

Besides, most of us are not exactly flush with cash right now.

Correspondence with an electrical contractor in Central Texas,
another electrical/heating contractor in Albuquerque, and another in
Palmer Alaska all indicate it is "common practice" to have the furnace
connected by a twist-lock plug to a receptacle.
An electrician in Central PA says they do it all the time - it IS
against code but the inspectors all allow it.

The reason given for not allowing it is flexible cords did not stand
up to the temperatures that could be expected in the furnace wiring
cabinet. Flexible cords are used on electric space heaters and other
heating appliances - so high temperature cord is available - and used.

Well, there you have it.Four guys in four cities, sounds like a settled
argument to me!!!

However it doesn't jibe with what my UPS guy told me

The bigger issue would be bypassing the other safety
devices (kill switches, firematic cut out switch) which
exist upstream in the circuit before power ever reaches
the service switch on the boiler/furnace...

When you have the boiler/furnace powered by the
generator all of those upstream safety devices are
rendered inoperative, true they are not required in
every jurisdiction, but up here in the northern cold
parts they are... That is why the best way to
connect a generator to the boiler/furnace to a
generator is with a single circuit transfer switch
located at the electrical panel... This way when
you are powering the boiler/furnace with the
generator all the safety devices upstream of the
boiler/furnace in the circuit are not being
rendered inoperative...

~~ Evan

I don't know what you refer to as a "firematic cutout switch". It's not
something we use on residential heating systems in downstate NY. We do
use Firematic oil valves, which shut off oil at the burner in case of fire.
If the heating system is fed by a single circuit, and a transfer device
is installed at the head of that circuit, all the safety and operating
controls remain intact.
It could be possible to install a transfer device at or on the heating
system that would by-pass the remote emergency switch, but only during
the emergency, when the system is running off generator power, in which
case, you'd just pull the plug or turn off the generator

Another issue which I pointed out earlier is that most furnaces
are in basements or garages, at least here in the USA. To be
code compliant that new receptacle would then have to be on
a GFCI. Don't know what the cord advocates think about that
one, but I would not want my furnace on a GFCI.

Interesting observation, certainly escaped me. Unless your heating
system is in a finished part of your basement, the code has no exeptions
for such things. Having replaced countless defective GFCI outlets over
the years, I certainly wouldn't want my heating system dependent on one.

Another thing regarding code legality, and I'm curious to hear from you
in NJ, Pawlowski in Conn, gfretwell in Fla, and others about the world.
Often people on this NG say to go to your local code office, or ask your
local electrical inspector. The OP is located just outside of NYC in a
small city, not in some rural farmland. There is no "code office", and
there are no electrical inspectors available to teach electrical code to
anyone including licensed electricians. In this part of the world, it's
technically illegal to do your own wiring, and licensed electricians are
supposed to know their business. If something is done wrong, the
inspector makes you correct your errors.

On Feb 7, 1:21*am, Evan wrote:
On Feb 6, 11:50*pm, wrote:





On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 20:11:42 -0800 (PST), Evan

wrote:
On Feb 2, 5:05*pm, wrote:
On 2 Feb 2012 15:08:43 -0500, (David Combs) wrote:

Here's what I want to do.

I've got steam/boiler heater, runs on gas, the only electricty
needed is to run the (solenoid?) thermostat, basically.

It's powered via a cable (covered in flexible metal tubing)
that connects into the wall 110-AC line.

What I want to do is get that changed from that direct connection
to the wall, to instead end in a grounded male plug.

That's it!

Probably requiring another separate female socket box to plug
it into.

WHY? *So that when the power goes out and I get my small
generator cranked up, I can unplug the heating apparatus
(boiler, etc) from the wall and plug it into an extension
cord from the generator. *So I don't freeze my ass.

---

Now, I figure that this has to be done "to code", thus has
to be done by a licensed electrician.

So these guys recommended by my (*very* smart plumber)
came over to look at the "job".

At first the older of the two gave me all this gobbledygook
about the code requiring him to add some mechanism to the
circuit-breaker panel to avoid having the generator back-feeding
into the house wiring when the city power came back on, and
my generator was still connected.

Complete BS, of course, because the two power sources,]
the house power and the generator, are TOTALLY isolated --
the boiler has only this single plug, and it's plugged
into one of three places:
* . the house.
* . the generator
* . nowhere -- it's "unplugged".

-----

Now, if you were an electrician, how much would YOU
charge to do this?

Oh, gotta add this. *There's TWO (gas) heat generators:
*. the big boiler, which heats the floors ABOVE it.
*. a small one, that supplies (via hot water) heat to
* *the basement (ie the same floor the boilers are
* *on), the reason being that 15 yearsago my wife's
* *aging parents came to live with us (couldn't manage
* *on their own, what with macular degeneration, etc), so
* *we converted the (finished) basement into a wee
* *kitchenless apartment for them.

And one third thing. *There's a continually running fan
in the boiler exhaust pipe to force the "exhaust"
up the chimney, not allowing it to (on windy day)
stay in the boiler room and flow under the door
to the rest of the basement -- which it often did until
the fan was added.

That too is wired directly into the wall, and also must
be converted into a plug. *What's that, 200 watts?

-----

This job seems so darned simple that it might not even
be worth the trip over to do the work, unless they charged
up the gazoo (per minute). * (I say this because it's been
an entire week since those two guys came over, and no
estimate yet. *Looks like they *don't want to do it at all,
maybe.)

So that I can judge whether an offer makes sense or not,
what might YOU charge to do this? * (Location: Westchester
County, N.Y.)

Hey, thanks so much!

David

*All you need to do is turn off the breaker, disconnect the hard-wired
connection, and replace it with a Duplex receptacle of the correct
amperage, then remove the solid conductor wire from the boiler control
box and replace it with a flexible cord of the correct guage, with the
correct plug.

Dead simple job, and no electician "required" in most jurisdictions -
particularly if you are reasonably handy and know anything about
electricity and wiring (or can read and comprehend a book)

Umm... *Wouldn't doing that improperly bypass all of the
safety switches and devices hard wired in the circuit which
cut off the power in the event of something going wrong ?

~~ Evan

*It would IF there are ANY of those safety devices currently installed
or required, and they are "upstream" of the main power connection.
Most today, I imagine, would be low voltage controls wired out from
the main control box.

Umm, No, they would not be low voltage controls wired
out from the box...

The "Emergency Shut-Off Switch" is a normal single
pole lighting switch installed in a remote location
usually with a red switch plate, so that the heating
plant can be shut down without needing to enter the
basement in the event of a fire or CO leakage condition...

The "firematic" is a safety device mounted in an outlet
box directly above the heating plant which will automatically
break the 120v circuit in the event the temperature gets
too hot which happens when things catch on fire...

Both of these devices are required in many places to be
installed between the power supply at the circuit breaker
and the service kill switch mounted on the side of the unit...
Even *if* you installed a switched outlet to use a cord set
to connect the heating plant to a gen set at the heating
device, you would eliminate all of those safety devices from
the circuit when running the heating plant off a generator...

Certainly the generator has a switch whereby you can
turn it off if necessary. As would pulling
out the extension cord, or pulling the cord out of the
receptacle serve as disconnects. Any of those serve
the same purpose as the normal disconnect means.

As for the additional firematic requirement, that MIGHT
be required some places, but I've seen new furnaces
installed that passed inspection in NJ and NY recently
and no such device was required. Nor have I ever seen
one in a residence here. If there is already fire above
the furnace, turning off the furnace would not seem
capable of doing much good. In any case, since there
are clearly millions of homes with no firematic protection
at all, running a furnace off a generator for a few days
without one doesn't seem like a big deal to me.






Why do people see the need to do things in such
over complicated ways ?

While a cord and receptacle doesn't comply with
NEC and may not be approved in many places,
it isn't complicated at all.


*If all you are concerned with
is using your heating boiler during a power failure,
the single circuit transfer switch at the power panel
is ideal -- no lengthy extension cords all over the
house leading from the boiler to outside where
the generator is located...

No, you just need a similar extension cord from
wherever the inlet supplying the panel is located.
That cord could be as long or longer than the
one it takes if using a receptacle and cord.
It all depends on the location, not the approach.
Granted, with the panel approach you likely have
more flexibility in where you locate the inlet, but
then you also have a lot more install work than
the cord/receptacle, which to me, makes it
more complicated.


The OP could install
one of those rather easily and not have to worry,
with multiple circuit type transfer switches there
is usually an option available with the kit to hard
wire the link from the transfer switch to an outlet
outside for a short cord from the generator to the
hard wired outlet point rather than laying out long
runs of extension cords...

Not only would installing the transfer switch
equipment and dedicated outlet/hard wired link
for the generator make more sense, a generator
outside with a short cord on it is a less desirable
target... *You could pour a small slab like you
might see under an air conditioning heat pump
with a large size eye bolt set in it so that you
could use a padlock and chain to secure the
generator in place while it is being used...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I agree with doing it at the panel. But the main reasons
for that are that:

A - It meets NEC

B - If he uses an Interlockkit panel kit, he can power
not only the furnace but also other loads in the house.
He could do the same with the seperate generator
load panel, but it's going to be more costly, more
work to install and less flexible.

On Feb 7, 8:13*am, RBM wrote:
Another issue which I pointed out earlier is that most furnaces
are in basements or garages, at least here in the USA. *To be
code compliant that new receptacle would then have to be on
a GFCI. *Don't know what the cord advocates think about that
one, but I would not want my furnace on a GFCI.

Interesting observation, certainly escaped me. Unless your heating
system is in a finished part of your basement, the code has no exeptions
for such things. Having replaced countless defective GFCI outlets over
the years, I certainly wouldn't want my heating system dependent on one.

Another thing regarding code legality, and I'm curious to hear from you
in NJ, Pawlowski in Conn, gfretwell in Fla, and others about the world.
Often people on this NG say to go to your local code office, or ask your
local electrical inspector. The OP is located just outside of NYC in a
small city, not in some rural farmland. There is no "code office", and
there are no electrical inspectors available to teach electrical code to
anyone including licensed electricians. In this part of the world, it's
technically illegal to do your own wiring, and licensed electricians are
supposed to know their business. If something is done wrong, the
inspector makes you correct your errors.

Here in central NJ I've had experience with inspectors in two
different municipalities. One was 25 years ago where I used
to live. That municipality contracted out their inspection work
to a private company. That inspector wanted nothing to do
with answering questions and was abrupt and rude. So, he
was an example of what you are referring to. I don't know
what they are doing over there now, but with the pressure
on budgets, I don't think it would be unusual to find towns
here that are contracting out their inspection work.

Where I live now, which is only 10 mins from the other
place, the municipality has it's own full time
inspectors for electric, plumbing, fire, etc. These guys
are located at the municipal complex and are willing
to answer questions. For example, I've gone over with
spec sheets on a piece of eqpt and they are willing to
look at it. If it's something they haven't seen before,
they make a copy of it and put it in the permit file.
In my experiences with them, they have been helpful
and reasonable.

So, I think the answer is that it can vary greatly, even
between municipalities that are nearby.

On 2/6/2012 1:54 PM, David Combs wrote:
In , wrote:
On 2/2/2012 6:27 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:

It's a moot point. The OP has a draft inducer in the system which needs
120 volts

Thanks for mentioning that.

Well, right now that fan is not *in* the system -- it's directly
wired to the wall, and is on ALL THE TIME -- all four seasons.

(That was the strong advice of the plumber.)


Now, not only is having it running all the time going to
wear out a lot sooner, but motors take more than a few
watts. 24/7/52 can add up to a *LOT* of money.

(I just read an article somewhere that claimed that
running a not-too-big fan 100% of the time came
to $5,000 per year! Even if that's exaggerated, it's
still probably over $1,000. Should get close and see
if I can read the watts rating.)

Anyway, I think (unless you guys say not to) I'd like
that fan to run only when the furnace is "on" (burning
gas). Now, that would require some kind of solenoid-switch
controlled by the same circuit that controls the opening
of the gas-line into the burner, probably working at the
same voltage as THAT (gas) solenoid, with at 110v switch
open and closed by the new solenoid.

Hmmm. That controlled-switch would be inserted in
the middle of the current power-line going from the
wall to the fan.

So there'd *still* be no *electrical* connection between
the fan and the furnace.

Now, it'd sure be nice if the current "oompf" controlling
the gas-solenoid was strong enough to also control
the second one! Would make life a lot easier than it
might otherwise be.


There is no description of why the draft inducer was installed or
whether the boiler can be safely run without it.

I have a condensing boiler that has a draft inducer. Some of the features:
- pre-burn purge run to make sure there are not combustible gasses in
the boiler
- a pressure switch confirms that the draft inducer is running; also
confirms that the pressure switch has not failed
- post-burn purge run to clear the boiler and flues

RBM commented that you might need a "post purge" run if you do not run
the draft inducer continuously.

--
bud--

On 2/5/2012 7:59 AM, wrote:
On Feb 4, 11:57 pm, wrote:
On Sat, 04 Feb 2012 20:58:27 -0500, wrote:

You entered this string saying: " His only recommendation was to use a
12 gauge appliance cord set, proper strain relief (not romex clamp) and
a high-quality 20 amp receptacle.

Your inference is that using 20 amp equipment, somehow makes it better,
which is not true if the circuit feeding the system is 15 amp. It would
then be a Nec code violation.

Perhaps not on a "dedicated" outlet. Using a 15 amp outlet on a 20
amp fuse definitely WOULD be an infraction.

If the 20 amp outlet was
on a 12 guage copper cable, connected to a 15 amp breaker it would
also not be , necessarily, a violation.

We've been over that one several times over the
years. While one section of NEC says it's OK to use
a SINGLE receptacle with a higher amp rating on a circuit
as long as it's the only receptacle, another section
of the code seems to preclude it.
I don't have the specifics here, but remember it was
Bud that found the other section of the code. At best,
it's ambiguous.


It is not ambiguous.

210.21 does not prohibit a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit if it is the
only receptacle. The same article does not allow a 20A receptacle on a
15A circuit is there is more than one receptacle (including a duplex
receptacle). A lot of people see a flaw there (but the code panel
doesn't). (The article also does not prohibit a 100A SINGLE receptacle
on a 15A circuit.)

A grounding type 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit is *clearly* a
violation of 406.4.
(A 20A non-grounding type receptacle can be installed on a 15A circuit
if it is the only receptacle - extremely limited applicability.)

--
bud--

On Feb 7, 11:10*am, bud-- wrote:
On 2/5/2012 7:59 AM, wrote:





On Feb 4, 11:57 pm, wrote:
On Sat, 04 Feb 2012 20:58:27 -0500, *wrote:

You entered this string saying: " His only recommendation was to use a
12 gauge appliance cord set, proper strain relief (not romex clamp) and
a high-quality 20 amp receptacle.

Your inference is that using 20 amp equipment, somehow makes it better,
which is not true if the circuit feeding the system is 15 amp. It would
then be a Nec code violation.

* Perhaps not on a "dedicated" outlet. Using a 15 amp outlet on a 20
amp fuse definitely WOULD be an infraction.

* If the 20 amp outlet was
on a 12 guage copper cable, connected to a 15 amp breaker it would
also not be , necessarily, a violation.

We've been over that one several times over the
years. *While one section of NEC says it's OK to use
a SINGLE receptacle with a higher amp rating on a circuit
as long as it's the only receptacle, another section
of the code seems to preclude it.
I don't have the specifics here, but remember it was
Bud that found the other section of the code. *At best,
it's ambiguous.

It is not ambiguous.

210.21 does not prohibit a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit if it is the
only receptacle.

I agree with that part. But months ago when we went
through this you came up with another part of NEC
where it said something to the effect that a receptacle
can only be used on the ciruit with a rating that it was
intended for. And you said THAT made it a violation
to use a single 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp
circuit. I don't have the section here in front of
me, but I believe it was still not clearly worded.



The same article does not allow a 20A receptacle on a
15A circuit is there is more than one receptacle (including a duplex
receptacle).

Yes, that part is clear.


A lot of people see a flaw there (but the code panel
doesn't). (The article also does not prohibit a 100A SINGLE receptacle
on a 15A circuit.)

A grounding type 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit is *clearly* a
violation of 406.4.
(A 20A non-grounding type receptacle can be installed on a 15A circuit
if it is the only receptacle - extremely limited applicability.)

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -


Oh, OK, never mind. I think what you mean is actually 406.3 in
the 2008 code. The distinction is that you believe a single GROUNDED
20A receptacle on a 15A circuit is prohibited because of this:

"grounding receptacles shall be installed only on circuits of the
voltage class and current for which they are rated."

That's the section I was thinking of above. I didn't realize it
was specific to just grounded receptacles. That's where
I was wrong.

I see your point and how it could be interpreted that way.
I think it could also be interpreted to mean that since a
20A receptacle is rated to carry at least 15A, that it's still OK.
That is why I said it was ambiguous at best.

But apparently a single 20A non-grounding receptacle
is not prohibited. Don't know who would be installing
those these days. Is it even permissible to add
an addional non-grounding receptacle on a circuit
without a ground?

On 2/7/2012 5:58 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sat, 4 Feb 2012 13:57:17 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:


In other words, while you're arguing and looking for ways
to make leaps in interpretation of the code to allow the
cord/receptacle, even if it were allowed, the ultimate aim,
which is to run the furnace off an extension cord to a
generator, is not allowed.

Its 5 degrees, the storm is still blowing and the power went out. Do
you give a crap about what is allowed? If it makes heat, I'm doing it
(safely).

Best answer! 2 thumbs up!