..
Awl --

Apropos of the ahr thread Gas vs. electric range, someone spoke favorably
of ventless gas heaters.

Some time ago, it was complete news to me that "ventless gas" heaters even
existed, as I thought it was safety no-no, and also being conditioned to
vented Modine blowers -- not cheap, AND you need a stack.
But after some reading, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven, regarding my
shop heat problem, ie, freezing my ass off.

So I bought TWO, of the "radiant" type, with the ceramic ditty, a small and
a large, plumbed gas to the shop, and BAM, from a heat pov, I was in
seventh heaven. I need not have bought two, and could have easily gotten by
with just the small one! Cheap, too, I think $119 and $79.

But.... BUT.....
The air quality was atrocious!! You could FEEL the air in the back of
your throat -- and I spent many a youthful winter huddled in a gas-heated
kitchen, with no such sensation. A little stuffy, mebbe, but nothing like
this. Almost acrid.

Second, the water vapor.... holy ****..... I don't think a dehumidifier
coulda kept up with the vapor, and the wall above the unit was just
soaked -- not good metal, machinery-wise, OR wall-wise..

They lasted a month, and have been in plastic wrap for years now.

Never could figger out what that smell/sensation was, as they seemed to be
burning clean, altho I never did bring down the CO detector. But I'm sure
had those sensations been related to CO, I'da blacked out or wound up with a
CO migraine.

Too bad, cuz the heat was ossum.
In a sense, the poor air quality mighta been a blessing, cuz I proly woulda
endured the prodigious water vapor, to the long-term detriment of the shop.

Now, I've added lotsa lighting, proly almost 2 kW worth, so THAT helps in
the winter.
That, and a long electric baseboard heater (with a 3 way wall switch, you
can get high heat and a nice low heat, by switching 120 V to it), the
dehumidifer, and the machines themselves keep it OK -- not toasty, like the
ventless gas, but OK. A second portable electric heater helps in the
super-cold. Also calisthenics.... LOL
--
EA

On 12/27/2011 2:14 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
.
Awl --

Apropos of the ahr thread Gas vs. electric range, someone spoke favorably
of ventless gas heaters.

Some time ago, it was complete news to me that "ventless gas" heaters even
existed, as I thought it was safety no-no, and also being conditioned to
vented Modine blowers -- not cheap, AND you need a stack.
But after some reading, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven, regarding my
shop heat problem, ie, freezing my ass off.

So I bought TWO, of the "radiant" type, with the ceramic ditty, a small and
a large, plumbed gas to the shop, and BAM, from a heat pov, I was in
seventh heaven. I need not have bought two, and could have easily gotten by
with just the small one! Cheap, too, I think $119 and $79.

But.... BUT.....
The air quality was atrocious!! You could FEEL the air in the back of
your throat -- and I spent many a youthful winter huddled in a gas-heated
kitchen, with no such sensation. A little stuffy, mebbe, but nothing like
this. Almost acrid.

Second, the water vapor.... holy ****..... I don't think a dehumidifier
coulda kept up with the vapor, and the wall above the unit was just
soaked -- not good metal, machinery-wise, OR wall-wise..

They lasted a month, and have been in plastic wrap for years now.

Never could figger out what that smell/sensation was, as they seemed to be
burning clean, altho I never did bring down the CO detector. But I'm sure
had those sensations been related to CO, I'da blacked out or wound up with a
CO migraine.

Too bad, cuz the heat was ossum.
In a sense, the poor air quality mighta been a blessing, cuz I proly woulda
endured the prodigious water vapor, to the long-term detriment of the shop.

Now, I've added lotsa lighting, proly almost 2 kW worth, so THAT helps in
the winter.
That, and a long electric baseboard heater (with a 3 way wall switch, you
can get high heat and a nice low heat, by switching 120 V to it), the
dehumidifer, and the machines themselves keep it OK -- not toasty, like the
ventless gas, but OK. A second portable electric heater helps in the
super-cold. Also calisthenics.... LOL

I could not find the specific impurities from a vent-less heater but did
clip from an OSHA bulletin on air impurities. I experienced these
heaters in a friends hunting camp when he installed them after getting
free gas from a gas well on his property. Can't remember any breathing
difficulty but don't like breathing combustion products and don't like
depending on the carbon monoxide and low oxygen safety features. Lot of
the chemicals listed below could be present.

MAJOR INDOOR AIR CONTAMINANTS.

General. Although asbestos and radon have been listed below, acute
health effects are not associated with these contaminants. These have
been included due to recent concerns about their health effects. The
investigator should be aware that there may be other health effects in
addition to those listed.

Acetic Acid.
Sources: X-ray development equipment, silicone caulking compounds.

Acute health effects: Eye, respiratory and mucous membrane irritation.

Carbon Dioxide.
Sources: Unvented gas and kerosene appliances, improperly vented
devices, processes or operations which produce combustion products,
human respiration.

Acute health effects: Difficulty concentrating, drowsiness,
increased respiration rate.

Carbon Monoxide.
Sources: Tobacco smoke, fossil-fuel engine exhausts, improperly
vented fossil-fuel appliances.

Acute health effects: Dizziness, headache, nausea, cyanosis,
cardiovascular effects, and death.

Formaldehyde.
Sources: Off-gassing from urea formaldehyde foam insulation,
plywood, particle board, and paneling; carpeting and fabric; glues and
adhesives; and combustion products including tobacco smoke.

Acute health effects: Hypersensitive or allergic reactions; skin
rashes; eye, respiratory and mucous membrane irritation; odor annoyance.

Nitrogen Oxides.
Sources: Combustion products from gas furnaces and appliances;
tobacco smoke, welding, and gas- and diesel-engine exhausts.

Acute health effects: Eye, respiratory and mucous membrane irritation.

Ozone.
Sources: Copy machines, electrostatic air cleaners, electrical
arcing, smog.

Acute health effects: Eye, respiratory tract, mucous membrane
irritation; aggravation of chronic respiratory diseases.

Radon.
Sources: Ground beneath buildings, building materials, and groundwater.

Acute health effects: No acute health effects are known but chronic
exposure may lead to increased risk of lung cancer from alpha radiation.

Volatile Organic Compounds (VOC's). Volatile organic compounds
include trichloroethylene, benzene, toluene, methyl ethyl ketone,
alcohols, methacrylates, acrolein, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, and
pesticides.

Sources: Paints, cleaning compounds, moth-balls, glues,
photocopiers, "spirit" duplicators, signature machines, silicone
caulking materials, insecticides, herbicides, combustion products,
asphalt, gasoline vapors, tobacco smoke, dried out floor drains,
cosmetics and other personal products.

Acute health effects: Nausea; dizziness; eye, respiratory tract,
and mucous membrane irritation; headache; fatigue.

Miscellaneous Inorganic Gases. Includes ammonia, hydrogen sulfide,
sulfur dioxide.

Sources: Microfilm equipment, window cleaners, acid drain cleaners,
combustion products, tobacco smoke, blue-print equipment.

Acute health effects: Eye, respiratory tract, mucous membrane
irritation; aggravation of chronic respiratory diseases.

On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 15:26:10 -0500, Frank
wrote:

On 12/27/2011 2:14 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
.
Awl --

Apropos of the ahr thread Gas vs. electric range, someone spoke favorably
of ventless gas heaters.

Some time ago, it was complete news to me that "ventless gas" heaters even
existed, as I thought it was safety no-no, and also being conditioned to
vented Modine blowers -- not cheap, AND you need a stack.
But after some reading, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven, regarding my
shop heat problem, ie, freezing my ass off.

So I bought TWO, of the "radiant" type, with the ceramic ditty, a small and
a large, plumbed gas to the shop, and BAM, from a heat pov, I was in
seventh heaven. I need not have bought two, and could have easily gotten by
with just the small one! Cheap, too, I think $119 and $79.

But.... BUT.....
The air quality was atrocious!! You could FEEL the air in the back of
your throat -- and I spent many a youthful winter huddled in a gas-heated
kitchen, with no such sensation. A little stuffy, mebbe, but nothing like
this. Almost acrid.

Second, the water vapor.... holy ****..... I don't think a dehumidifier
coulda kept up with the vapor, and the wall above the unit was just
soaked -- not good metal, machinery-wise, OR wall-wise..

They lasted a month, and have been in plastic wrap for years now.

Never could figger out what that smell/sensation was, as they seemed to be
burning clean, altho I never did bring down the CO detector. But I'm sure
had those sensations been related to CO, I'da blacked out or wound up with a
CO migraine.

Too bad, cuz the heat was ossum.
In a sense, the poor air quality mighta been a blessing, cuz I proly woulda
endured the prodigious water vapor, to the long-term detriment of the shop.

Now, I've added lotsa lighting, proly almost 2 kW worth, so THAT helps in
the winter.
That, and a long electric baseboard heater (with a 3 way wall switch, you
can get high heat and a nice low heat, by switching 120 V to it), the
dehumidifer, and the machines themselves keep it OK -- not toasty, like the
ventless gas, but OK. A second portable electric heater helps in the
super-cold. Also calisthenics.... LOL

I could not find the specific impurities from a vent-less heater but did
clip from an OSHA bulletin on air impurities. I experienced these
heaters in a friends hunting camp when he installed them after getting
free gas from a gas well on his property. Can't remember any breathing
difficulty but don't like breathing combustion products and don't like
depending on the carbon monoxide and low oxygen safety features. Lot of
the chemicals listed below could be present.

MAJOR INDOOR AIR CONTAMINANTS.

General. Although asbestos and radon have been listed below, acute
health effects are not associated with these contaminants. These have
been included due to recent concerns about their health effects. The
investigator should be aware that there may be other health effects in
addition to those listed.

Acetic Acid.
Sources: X-ray development equipment, silicone caulking compounds.

Acute health effects: Eye, respiratory and mucous membrane irritation.

Carbon Dioxide.
Sources: Unvented gas and kerosene appliances, improperly vented
devices, processes or operations which produce combustion products,
human respiration.

Acute health effects: Difficulty concentrating, drowsiness,
increased respiration rate.

Carbon Monoxide.
Sources: Tobacco smoke, fossil-fuel engine exhausts, improperly
vented fossil-fuel appliances.

Acute health effects: Dizziness, headache, nausea, cyanosis,
cardiovascular effects, and death.

Formaldehyde.
Sources: Off-gassing from urea formaldehyde foam insulation,
plywood, particle board, and paneling; carpeting and fabric; glues and
adhesives; and combustion products including tobacco smoke.

Acute health effects: Hypersensitive or allergic reactions; skin
rashes; eye, respiratory and mucous membrane irritation; odor annoyance.

Nitrogen Oxides.
Sources: Combustion products from gas furnaces and appliances;
tobacco smoke, welding, and gas- and diesel-engine exhausts.

Acute health effects: Eye, respiratory and mucous membrane irritation.

Ozone.
Sources: Copy machines, electrostatic air cleaners, electrical
arcing, smog.

Acute health effects: Eye, respiratory tract, mucous membrane
irritation; aggravation of chronic respiratory diseases.

Radon.
Sources: Ground beneath buildings, building materials, and groundwater.

Acute health effects: No acute health effects are known but chronic
exposure may lead to increased risk of lung cancer from alpha radiation.

Volatile Organic Compounds (VOC's). Volatile organic compounds
include trichloroethylene, benzene, toluene, methyl ethyl ketone,
alcohols, methacrylates, acrolein, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, and
pesticides.

Sources: Paints, cleaning compounds, moth-balls, glues,
photocopiers, "spirit" duplicators, signature machines, silicone
caulking materials, insecticides, herbicides, combustion products,
asphalt, gasoline vapors, tobacco smoke, dried out floor drains,
cosmetics and other personal products.

Acute health effects: Nausea; dizziness; eye, respiratory tract,
and mucous membrane irritation; headache; fatigue.

Miscellaneous Inorganic Gases. Includes ammonia, hydrogen sulfide,
sulfur dioxide.

Sources: Microfilm equipment, window cleaners, acid drain cleaners,
combustion products, tobacco smoke, blue-print equipment.

Acute health effects: Eye, respiratory tract, mucous membrane
irritation; aggravation of chronic respiratory diseases.
I'd be guessing, but possibly oxides of Nitrogen? )(NOX)

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 15:26:10 -0500, Frank
wrote:

On 12/27/2011 2:14 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
.
Awl --

Apropos of the ahr thread Gas vs. electric range, someone spoke
favorably
of ventless gas heaters.

Some time ago, it was complete news to me that "ventless gas" heaters
even
existed, as I thought it was safety no-no, and also being conditioned to
vented Modine blowers -- not cheap, AND you need a stack.
But after some reading, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven, regarding
my
shop heat problem, ie, freezing my ass off.

So I bought TWO, of the "radiant" type, with the ceramic ditty, a small
and
a large, plumbed gas to the shop, and BAM, from a heat pov, I was in
seventh heaven. I need not have bought two, and could have easily
gotten by
with just the small one! Cheap, too, I think $119 and $79.

But.... BUT.....
The air quality was atrocious!! You could FEEL the air in the back
of
your throat -- and I spent many a youthful winter huddled in a
gas-heated
kitchen, with no such sensation. A little stuffy, mebbe, but nothing
like
this. Almost acrid.

Second, the water vapor.... holy ****..... I don't think a
dehumidifier
coulda kept up with the vapor, and the wall above the unit was just
soaked -- not good metal, machinery-wise, OR wall-wise..

They lasted a month, and have been in plastic wrap for years now.

Never could figger out what that smell/sensation was, as they seemed to
be
burning clean, altho I never did bring down the CO detector. But I'm
sure
had those sensations been related to CO, I'da blacked out or wound up
with a
CO migraine.

Too bad, cuz the heat was ossum.
In a sense, the poor air quality mighta been a blessing, cuz I proly
woulda
endured the prodigious water vapor, to the long-term detriment of the
shop.

Now, I've added lotsa lighting, proly almost 2 kW worth, so THAT helps
in
the winter.
That, and a long electric baseboard heater (with a 3 way wall switch,
you
can get high heat and a nice low heat, by switching 120 V to it), the
dehumidifer, and the machines themselves keep it OK -- not toasty, like
the
ventless gas, but OK. A second portable electric heater helps in the
super-cold. Also calisthenics.... LOL

I could not find the specific impurities from a vent-less heater but did
clip from an OSHA bulletin on air impurities. I experienced these
heaters in a friends hunting camp when he installed them after getting
free gas from a gas well on his property. Can't remember any breathing
difficulty but don't like breathing combustion products and don't like
depending on the carbon monoxide and low oxygen safety features. Lot of
the chemicals listed below could be present.

MAJOR INDOOR AIR CONTAMINANTS.

General. Although asbestos and radon have been listed below, acute
health effects are not associated with these contaminants. These have
been included due to recent concerns about their health effects. The
investigator should be aware that there may be other health effects in
addition to those listed.

Acetic Acid.
Sources: X-ray development equipment, silicone caulking compounds.

Acute health effects: Eye, respiratory and mucous membrane
irritation.

Carbon Dioxide.
Sources: Unvented gas and kerosene appliances, improperly vented
devices, processes or operations which produce combustion products,
human respiration.

Acute health effects: Difficulty concentrating, drowsiness,
increased respiration rate.

Carbon Monoxide.
Sources: Tobacco smoke, fossil-fuel engine exhausts, improperly
vented fossil-fuel appliances.

Acute health effects: Dizziness, headache, nausea, cyanosis,
cardiovascular effects, and death.

Formaldehyde.
Sources: Off-gassing from urea formaldehyde foam insulation,
plywood, particle board, and paneling; carpeting and fabric; glues and
adhesives; and combustion products including tobacco smoke.

Acute health effects: Hypersensitive or allergic reactions; skin
rashes; eye, respiratory and mucous membrane irritation; odor annoyance.

Nitrogen Oxides.
Sources: Combustion products from gas furnaces and appliances;
tobacco smoke, welding, and gas- and diesel-engine exhausts.

Acute health effects: Eye, respiratory and mucous membrane
irritation.

Ozone.
Sources: Copy machines, electrostatic air cleaners, electrical
arcing, smog.

Acute health effects: Eye, respiratory tract, mucous membrane
irritation; aggravation of chronic respiratory diseases.

Radon.
Sources: Ground beneath buildings, building materials, and
groundwater.

Acute health effects: No acute health effects are known but chronic
exposure may lead to increased risk of lung cancer from alpha radiation.

Volatile Organic Compounds (VOC's). Volatile organic compounds
include trichloroethylene, benzene, toluene, methyl ethyl ketone,
alcohols, methacrylates, acrolein, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, and
pesticides.

Sources: Paints, cleaning compounds, moth-balls, glues,
photocopiers, "spirit" duplicators, signature machines, silicone
caulking materials, insecticides, herbicides, combustion products,
asphalt, gasoline vapors, tobacco smoke, dried out floor drains,
cosmetics and other personal products.

Acute health effects: Nausea; dizziness; eye, respiratory tract,
and mucous membrane irritation; headache; fatigue.

Miscellaneous Inorganic Gases. Includes ammonia, hydrogen sulfide,
sulfur dioxide.

Sources: Microfilm equipment, window cleaners, acid drain cleaners,
combustion products, tobacco smoke, blue-print equipment.

Acute health effects: Eye, respiratory tract, mucous membrane
irritation; aggravation of chronic respiratory diseases.
I'd be guessing, but possibly oxides of Nitrogen? )(NOX)

Seems possible, but then why not from a stove top, oven? Also all the other
listed agents from Frank?

Poss answer: the ceramic is acting like some catalyst, producing NOx
compounds, or others?
Or, the ceramic itself is outgassing/reacting in some way.

You can even smell nichrome wire or other type electric heater elements.
Not all, but some.

AND, in my case, the shop volume to btu ratio, and the draftiness, could not
have contributed to an undue concentration of these airborne chemicals from
a pure buildup pov, so the agents must have been potent in themselves (at
least throat-wise), and/or the heater was producing prodigious amounts of
them.
--
EA

On 12/27/2011 12:14 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
.
Awl --

Apropos of the ahr thread Gas vs. electric range, someone spoke favorably
of ventless gas heaters.

Some time ago, it was complete news to me that "ventless gas" heaters even
existed, as I thought it was safety no-no, and also being conditioned to
vented Modine blowers -- not cheap, AND you need a stack.
But after some reading, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven, regarding my
shop heat problem, ie, freezing my ass off.

So I bought TWO, of the "radiant" type, with the ceramic ditty, a small and
a large, plumbed gas to the shop, and BAM, from a heat pov, I was in
seventh heaven. I need not have bought two, and could have easily gotten by
with just the small one! Cheap, too, I think $119 and $79.

But.... BUT.....
The air quality was atrocious!! You could FEEL the air in the back of
your throat -- and I spent many a youthful winter huddled in a gas-heated
kitchen, with no such sensation. A little stuffy, mebbe, but nothing like
this. Almost acrid.

Second, the water vapor.... holy ****..... I don't think a dehumidifier
coulda kept up with the vapor, and the wall above the unit was just
soaked -- not good metal, machinery-wise, OR wall-wise..


I use a propane "Mr Heater" in the winter and have for 15 years. The
moisture is noticable, but there don't seem to be any other problems. I
don't use it for 8 hours a day, so maybe that's it. I worry more about
the fire/burn problems than the air problems.

A friend used to use a kerosene torpedo heater in his shop/living
quarters and it was wicked. In the winter, half an hour in there would
give me a ringing headache.

BobH

.
Awl --

Apropos of the ahr thread Gas vs. electric range, someone spoke
favorably of ventless gas heaters.

Some time ago, it was complete news to me that "ventless gas" heaters
even existed, as I thought it was safety no-no, and also being
conditioned to vented Modine blowers -- not cheap, AND you need a
stack. But after some reading, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven,
regarding my shop heat problem, ie, freezing my ass off.

So I bought TWO, of the "radiant" type, with the ceramic ditty, a
small and a large, plumbed gas to the shop, and BAM, from a heat
pov, I was in seventh heaven. I need not have bought two, and could
have easily gotten by with just the small one! Cheap, too, I think
$119 and $79.
But.... BUT.....
The air quality was atrocious!! You could FEEL the air in the
back of your throat -- and I spent many a youthful winter huddled in
a gas-heated kitchen, with no such sensation. A little stuffy,
mebbe, but nothing like this. Almost acrid.

Second, the water vapor.... holy ****..... I don't think a
dehumidifier coulda kept up with the vapor, and the wall above the
unit was just soaked -- not good metal, machinery-wise, OR
wall-wise..

They lasted a month, and have been in plastic wrap for years now.

Never could figger out what that smell/sensation was, as they seemed
to be burning clean, altho I never did bring down the CO detector.
But I'm sure had those sensations been related to CO, I'da blacked
out or wound up with a CO migraine.

Too bad, cuz the heat was ossum.
In a sense, the poor air quality mighta been a blessing, cuz I proly
woulda endured the prodigious water vapor, to the long-term detriment
of the shop.
Now, I've added lotsa lighting, proly almost 2 kW worth, so THAT
helps in the winter.
That, and a long electric baseboard heater (with a 3 way wall switch,
you can get high heat and a nice low heat, by switching 120 V to it),
the dehumidifer, and the machines themselves keep it OK -- not
toasty, like the ventless gas, but OK. A second portable electric
heater helps in the super-cold. Also calisthenics.... LOL
--
EA

Don't know what part of the country you're in but try to find a
Dearborn heater.
Used them for years and never had the issues you speak of

http://www.eastwaysales.com/heaters-Dearborn.html

On 2011-12-27, Existential Angst wrote:
.
Awl --

Apropos of the ahr thread Gas vs. electric range, someone spoke favorably
of ventless gas heaters.

Some time ago, it was complete news to me that "ventless gas" heaters even
existed, as I thought it was safety no-no, and also being conditioned to
vented Modine blowers -- not cheap, AND you need a stack.
But after some reading, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven, regarding my
shop heat problem, ie, freezing my ass off.

So I bought TWO, of the "radiant" type, with the ceramic ditty, a small and
a large, plumbed gas to the shop, and BAM, from a heat pov, I was in
seventh heaven. I need not have bought two, and could have easily gotten by
with just the small one! Cheap, too, I think $119 and $79.

But.... BUT.....
The air quality was atrocious!! You could FEEL the air in the back of
your throat -- and I spent many a youthful winter huddled in a gas-heated
kitchen, with no such sensation. A little stuffy, mebbe, but nothing like
this. Almost acrid.

Second, the water vapor.... holy ****..... I don't think a dehumidifier
coulda kept up with the vapor, and the wall above the unit was just
soaked -- not good metal, machinery-wise, OR wall-wise..

They lasted a month, and have been in plastic wrap for years now.

Never could figger out what that smell/sensation was, as they seemed to be
burning clean, altho I never did bring down the CO detector. But I'm sure
had those sensations been related to CO, I'da blacked out or wound up with a
CO migraine.

Too bad, cuz the heat was ossum.
In a sense, the poor air quality mighta been a blessing, cuz I proly woulda
endured the prodigious water vapor, to the long-term detriment of the shop.

Now, I've added lotsa lighting, proly almost 2 kW worth, so THAT helps in
the winter.
That, and a long electric baseboard heater (with a 3 way wall switch, you
can get high heat and a nice low heat, by switching 120 V to it), the
dehumidifer, and the machines themselves keep it OK -- not toasty, like the
ventless gas, but OK. A second portable electric heater helps in the
super-cold. Also calisthenics.... LOL

I hate those filthy m.f.

i

Existential Angst wrote:
.
Awl --

Apropos of the ahr thread Gas vs. electric range, someone spoke favorably
of ventless gas heaters.

Some time ago, it was complete news to me that "ventless gas" heaters even
existed, as I thought it was safety no-no, and also being conditioned to
vented Modine blowers -- not cheap, AND you need a stack.
But after some reading, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven, regarding my
shop heat problem, ie, freezing my ass off.

So I bought TWO, of the "radiant" type, with the ceramic ditty, a small and
a large, plumbed gas to the shop, and BAM, from a heat pov, I was in
seventh heaven. I need not have bought two, and could have easily gotten by
with just the small one! Cheap, too, I think $119 and $79.

But.... BUT.....
The air quality was atrocious!! You could FEEL the air in the back of
your throat -- and I spent many a youthful winter huddled in a gas-heated
kitchen, with no such sensation. A little stuffy, mebbe, but nothing like
this. Almost acrid.

Second, the water vapor.... holy ****..... I don't think a dehumidifier
coulda kept up with the vapor, and the wall above the unit was just
soaked -- not good metal, machinery-wise, OR wall-wise..

They lasted a month, and have been in plastic wrap for years now.

Never could figger out what that smell/sensation was, as they seemed to be
burning clean, altho I never did bring down the CO detector. But I'm sure
had those sensations been related to CO, I'da blacked out or wound up with a
CO migraine.

Too bad, cuz the heat was ossum.
In a sense, the poor air quality mighta been a blessing, cuz I proly woulda
endured the prodigious water vapor, to the long-term detriment of the shop.

Now, I've added lotsa lighting, proly almost 2 kW worth, so THAT helps in
the winter.
That, and a long electric baseboard heater (with a 3 way wall switch, you
can get high heat and a nice low heat, by switching 120 V to it), the
dehumidifer, and the machines themselves keep it OK -- not toasty, like the
ventless gas, but OK. A second portable electric heater helps in the
super-cold. Also calisthenics.... LOL


The taste was likely due to the Butane that they add for winter use of
propane.
If it tasted sort of like weak weld smoke then it would be the butane
reacting with the catalyst.

--
Steve W.

Existential Angst" wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 15:26:10 -0500, Frank
wrote:

On 12/27/2011 2:14 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
-snip-

So I bought TWO, of the "radiant" type, with the ceramic ditty, a small
and
a large, plumbed gas to the shop, and BAM, from a heat pov, I was in

-snip-

Seems possible, but then why not from a stove top, oven? Also all the other
listed agents from Frank?

Poss answer: the ceramic is acting like some catalyst, producing NOx
compounds, or others?
Or, the ceramic itself is outgassing/reacting in some way.

I'd say all of that- plus the amount of gas you're burning in the shop
vs your stove.


You can even smell nichrome wire or other type electric heater elements.
Not all, but some.

AND, in my case, the shop volume to btu ratio, and the draftiness, could not
have contributed to an undue concentration of these airborne chemicals from
a pure buildup pov, so the agents must have been potent in themselves (at
least throat-wise), and/or the heater was producing prodigious amounts of
them.

If it was producing enough water vapor to be a problem, you must have
been burning a crap-load of gas. I have a ventless in a family
room. There are 6 windows [double pane but no storms] there that
never fog up unless I boil 2 pots of pasta on the stove in the
adjacent kitchen.

I never smell anything. It has some sort of fake log, but it isn't
part of the 'heater' it is just for show. All the heat is from the
flames.

The CO detector is 4 feet from the stove. Only time it has gone
off is when my wife wears a certain kind of powder-- and if I have all
burners on the stove going and the oven.

I had a digital one that registered the 'highest level reached' for a
while. It never got close to tripping unless one of the above
circumstances occurred.

I love mine-
Jim

"Steve W." wrote in message
...
Existential Angst wrote:
.
Awl --

Apropos of the ahr thread Gas vs. electric range, someone spoke
favorably of ventless gas heaters.

Some time ago, it was complete news to me that "ventless gas" heaters
even existed, as I thought it was safety no-no, and also being
conditioned to vented Modine blowers -- not cheap, AND you need a stack.
But after some reading, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven, regarding
my shop heat problem, ie, freezing my ass off.

So I bought TWO, of the "radiant" type, with the ceramic ditty, a small
and a large, plumbed gas to the shop, and BAM, from a heat pov, I was in
seventh heaven. I need not have bought two, and could have easily gotten
by with just the small one! Cheap, too, I think $119 and $79.

But.... BUT.....
The air quality was atrocious!! You could FEEL the air in the back
of your throat -- and I spent many a youthful winter huddled in a
gas-heated kitchen, with no such sensation. A little stuffy, mebbe, but
nothing like this. Almost acrid.

Second, the water vapor.... holy ****..... I don't think a
dehumidifier coulda kept up with the vapor, and the wall above the unit
was just soaked -- not good metal, machinery-wise, OR wall-wise..

They lasted a month, and have been in plastic wrap for years now.

Never could figger out what that smell/sensation was, as they seemed to
be burning clean, altho I never did bring down the CO detector. But I'm
sure had those sensations been related to CO, I'da blacked out or wound
up with a CO migraine.

Too bad, cuz the heat was ossum.
In a sense, the poor air quality mighta been a blessing, cuz I proly
woulda endured the prodigious water vapor, to the long-term detriment of
the shop.

Now, I've added lotsa lighting, proly almost 2 kW worth, so THAT helps in
the winter.
That, and a long electric baseboard heater (with a 3 way wall switch, you
can get high heat and a nice low heat, by switching 120 V to it), the
dehumidifer, and the machines themselves keep it OK -- not toasty, like
the ventless gas, but OK. A second portable electric heater helps in the
super-cold. Also calisthenics.... LOL


The taste was likely due to the Butane that they add for winter use of
propane.
If it tasted sort of like weak weld smoke then it would be the butane
reacting with the catalyst.

Well, this was on natural gas.
But, altho it has been some time, "weak weld smoke" might characterize it,
altho I kind of like welding fumes.
I
But what catalyst are you referring to?
I was speculating that the ceramic *might* be acting as a catalyst, but do
you know this for sure??
--
EA



--
Steve W.

Steve W. wrote the following:
Existential Angst wrote:
.
Awl --
Apropos of the ahr thread Gas vs. electric range, someone spoke
favorably of ventless gas heaters.

Some time ago, it was complete news to me that "ventless gas" heaters
even existed, as I thought it was safety no-no, and also being
conditioned to vented Modine blowers -- not cheap, AND you need a stack.
But after some reading, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven,
regarding my shop heat problem, ie, freezing my ass off.

So I bought TWO, of the "radiant" type, with the ceramic ditty, a
small and a large, plumbed gas to the shop, and BAM, from a heat pov,
I was in seventh heaven. I need not have bought two, and could have
easily gotten by with just the small one! Cheap, too, I think $119
and $79.

But.... BUT.....
The air quality was atrocious!! You could FEEL the air in the
back of your throat -- and I spent many a youthful winter huddled in
a gas-heated kitchen, with no such sensation. A little stuffy, mebbe,
but nothing like this. Almost acrid.

Second, the water vapor.... holy ****..... I don't think a
dehumidifier coulda kept up with the vapor, and the wall above the
unit was just soaked -- not good metal, machinery-wise, OR wall-wise..

They lasted a month, and have been in plastic wrap for years now.

Never could figger out what that smell/sensation was, as they seemed
to be burning clean, altho I never did bring down the CO detector.
But I'm sure had those sensations been related to CO, I'da blacked out
or wound up with a CO migraine.

Too bad, cuz the heat was ossum.
In a sense, the poor air quality mighta been a blessing, cuz I proly
woulda endured the prodigious water vapor, to the long-term detriment
of the shop.

Now, I've added lotsa lighting, proly almost 2 kW worth, so THAT helps
in the winter.
That, and a long electric baseboard heater (with a 3 way wall switch,
you can get high heat and a nice low heat, by switching 120 V to it),
the dehumidifer, and the machines themselves keep it OK -- not toasty,
like the ventless gas, but OK. A second portable electric heater
helps in the super-cold. Also calisthenics.... LOL


The taste was likely due to the Butane that they add for winter use of
propane.
If it tasted sort of like weak weld smoke then it would be the butane
reacting with the catalyst.


I have a vent less propane fireplace in my 4 Seasons' sunroom.
When I lit it up for the first time after installation, it stunk to high
heaven.
I thought I had made a bad decision, but after using it a few more
times, the smell seemed to get less and less each time. It turned out to
be the heating of the fireplace's new interior parts materials that were
giving off the fumes. Since then, the smell disappeared and it hasn't
stunk since.



--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeros after @

Residential furnaces, are made with some kind of protectant on the heat
exchanger. On the first heat, they pump out a lot of stink and fumes. Having
installed furnaces for six years, I'd ought to remembered that.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"willshak" wrote in message
...

I have a vent less propane fireplace in my 4 Seasons' sunroom.
When I lit it up for the first time after installation, it stunk to high
heaven.
I thought I had made a bad decision, but after using it a few more
times, the smell seemed to get less and less each time. It turned out to
be the heating of the fireplace's new interior parts materials that were
giving off the fumes. Since then, the smell disappeared and it hasn't
stunk since.



--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeros after @

Did you by some chance have a tom cat in your shop? I can tell you
from personal experience that if one decides that such a heater is some
territory that must be marked, it will create all the symptoms you
described.


--
There are no stupid questions, but there are lots of stupid answers.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

Existential Angst wrote:

The taste was likely due to the Butane that they add for winter use of
propane.
If it tasted sort of like weak weld smoke then it would be the butane
reacting with the catalyst.

Well, this was on natural gas.
But, altho it has been some time, "weak weld smoke" might characterize it,
altho I kind of like welding fumes.
I
But what catalyst are you referring to?
I was speculating that the ceramic *might* be acting as a catalyst, but do
you know this for sure??

The "ceramic" is actually a metalized item that uses a catalytic
reaction to reduce the CO and convert more of the combustion gases into
heat.
The taste is still likely trace butane in the mix. It gets added to help
the lower gases ignite easier when it's cold.

--
Steve W.

"Steve W." wrote in message
...
Existential Angst wrote:

The taste was likely due to the Butane that they add for winter use of
propane.
If it tasted sort of like weak weld smoke then it would be the butane
reacting with the catalyst.

Well, this was on natural gas.
But, altho it has been some time, "weak weld smoke" might characterize
it, altho I kind of like welding fumes.
I
But what catalyst are you referring to?
I was speculating that the ceramic *might* be acting as a catalyst, but
do you know this for sure??

The "ceramic" is actually a metalized item that uses a catalytic reaction
to reduce the CO and convert more of the combustion gases into heat.
The taste is still likely trace butane in the mix. It gets added to help
the lower gases ignite easier when it's cold.

Well, NG is methane, don't think they put butane in there, but there is some
sulfurized hydrocarbon in there, so you can detect gas leaks.

That ceramic must be the problem, then, at least in my cheapie units --
forgot the brand, but I think most proly heard of them.
--
EA



--
Steve W.

On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 02:43:37 +0000 (UTC),
(Larry W) wrote:

Did you by some chance have a tom cat in your shop? I can tell you
from personal experience that if one decides that such a heater is some
territory that must be marked, it will create all the symptoms you
described.


Crom Yes! Ive got a wood stove in my shop. I had a stray tom come
through a month ago, and marked it pretty well from all signs. I fired
it up a week later...and was desperately trying to figure out if
someone had stuffed the stove with innertubes and used tampons covered
in bat ****. I had to hit it with a cup brush and a spray of engine
paint and then refire it up...man that was nasty nasty~!~~


Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

Existential Angst wrote:
"Steve W." wrote in message
...
Existential Angst wrote:
The taste was likely due to the Butane that they add for winter use of
propane.
If it tasted sort of like weak weld smoke then it would be the butane
reacting with the catalyst.
Well, this was on natural gas.
But, altho it has been some time, "weak weld smoke" might characterize
it, altho I kind of like welding fumes.
I
But what catalyst are you referring to?
I was speculating that the ceramic *might* be acting as a catalyst, but
do you know this for sure??
The "ceramic" is actually a metalized item that uses a catalytic reaction
to reduce the CO and convert more of the combustion gases into heat.
The taste is still likely trace butane in the mix. It gets added to help
the lower gases ignite easier when it's cold.

Well, NG is methane, don't think they put butane in there, but there is some
sulfurized hydrocarbon in there, so you can detect gas leaks.

That ceramic must be the problem, then, at least in my cheapie units --
forgot the brand, but I think most proly heard of them.

NG is usually about 85-95% methane. The rest is Iso-butane, Pentane,
Hexanes, Hydrogen, Ethane, Propane. Plus traces of Nitrogen, CO2 and O2.

You could test this out by hooking a propane tank up to one and seeing
if the problem is still there. Also you did make sure that they were set
up for NG? Many of them are set up for propane.
--
Steve W.

On 12/28/2011 12:54 AM, Steve W. wrote:
Existential Angst wrote:
"Steve W." wrote in message
...
Existential Angst wrote:
The taste was likely due to the Butane that they add for winter use
of propane.
If it tasted sort of like weak weld smoke then it would be the
butane reacting with the catalyst.
Well, this was on natural gas.
But, altho it has been some time, "weak weld smoke" might
characterize it, altho I kind of like welding fumes.
I
But what catalyst are you referring to?
I was speculating that the ceramic *might* be acting as a catalyst,
but do you know this for sure??
The "ceramic" is actually a metalized item that uses a catalytic
reaction to reduce the CO and convert more of the combustion gases
into heat.
The taste is still likely trace butane in the mix. It gets added to
help the lower gases ignite easier when it's cold.

Well, NG is methane, don't think they put butane in there, but there
is some sulfurized hydrocarbon in there, so you can detect gas leaks.

That ceramic must be the problem, then, at least in my cheapie units
-- forgot the brand, but I think most proly heard of them.

NG is usually about 85-95% methane. The rest is Iso-butane, Pentane,
Hexanes, Hydrogen, Ethane, Propane. Plus traces of Nitrogen, CO2 and O2.

You could test this out by hooking a propane tank up to one and seeing
if the problem is still there. Also you did make sure that they were set
up for NG? Many of them are set up for propane.

On some of that stuff, I seem to recall a threaded plug you have to
remove, flip over and reinstall depending on the fuel source. It's on
the regulator section of the gas control valve. It should be marked
"LP" or "NG" and could look like a small pipe plug or a disk depending
on the manufacturer. Any odd odor could be because of an incorrect
fuel/air mix?

TDD

Gunner Asch wrote:


Crom Yes! I've got a wood stove in my shop. I had a stray tom come
through a month ago, and marked it pretty well from all signs. I
fired it up a week later...and was desperately trying to figure out
if someone had stuffed the stove with innertubes and used tampons
covered in bat ****. I had to hit it with a cup brush and a spray
of engine paint and then refire it up...man that was nasty nasty~!


Gunner, you know better than to let ANY liberal into your shop.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

On Dec 27, 7:14*pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:
.
Awl --

Apropos of the ahr thread Gas vs. electric range, *someone spoke favorably
of ventless gas heaters.

Some time ago, it was complete news to me that "ventless gas" heaters even
existed, as I thought it was safety no-no, and also being conditioned to
vented Modine blowers -- not cheap, AND you need a stack.
But after some reading, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven, regarding my
shop heat problem, ie, freezing my ass off.

So I bought TWO, of the "radiant" type, with the ceramic ditty, a small and
a large, *plumbed gas to the shop, and BAM, from a heat pov, I was in
seventh heaven. *I need not have bought two, and could have easily gotten by
with just the small one! *Cheap, too, I think $119 and $79.

But.... * BUT.....
* *The air quality was atrocious!! * You could FEEL the air in the back of
your throat -- *and I spent many a youthful winter huddled in a gas-heated
kitchen, with no such sensation. *A little stuffy, mebbe, but nothing like
this. *Almost acrid.

Second, the water vapor.... * holy ****..... *I don't think a dehumidifier
coulda kept up with the vapor, and the wall above the unit was just
soaked -- not good metal, machinery-wise, OR wall-wise..

They lasted a month, and have been in plastic wrap for years now.

Never could figger out what that smell/sensation was, as they seemed to be
burning clean, altho I never did bring down the CO detector. *But I'm sure
had those sensations been related to CO, I'da blacked out or wound up with a
CO migraine.

Too bad, cuz the heat was ossum.
In a sense, the poor air quality mighta been a blessing, cuz I proly woulda
endured the prodigious water vapor, to the long-term detriment of the shop.

Now, I've added lotsa lighting, proly almost 2 kW worth, so THAT helps in
the winter.
That, and a long electric baseboard heater (with a 3 way wall switch, you
can get high heat and a nice low heat, by switching 120 V to it), the
dehumidifer, and the machines themselves keep it OK -- not toasty, like the
ventless gas, but OK. *A second portable electric heater helps in the
super-cold. *Also calisthenics.... * LOL
--
EA

The acrid smell is various oxides of nitrogen (Noxes, NO, N2O) caused
by atmospheric oxygen and nitrogen becoming joined up.
Mainly due to bad design of the burner.

If you are using ventless heaters you need to leave a window open a
small amount.

On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 02:29:32 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:


Crom Yes! I've got a wood stove in my shop. I had a stray tom come
through a month ago, and marked it pretty well from all signs. I
fired it up a week later...and was desperately trying to figure out
if someone had stuffed the stove with innertubes and used tampons
covered in bat ****. I had to hit it with a cup brush and a spray
of engine paint and then refire it up...man that was nasty nasty~!


Gunner, you know better than to let ANY liberal into your shop.

Tom cats and Liberals..very little simularity.
Possems..porkypines...pond scum...thats where they can be found.

Tom cats..are simply Varmints..outside the law. Think of them as
Anarchists. Not libertarians either. Most Liberals dont have half
the balls or brains a tom cat has. Nor the courage.

Hell...Liberals are far far closer to possums. They have teeth, but are
slow moving, slow to think, have no common sense and stink just standing
still. And they raise flocks of kids just like themselves and carry
them around.

Indeed..the more I think of it...the more Liberals are the Possem People

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opossum

Opossums are usually solitary and nomadic, staying in one area as long
as food and water are easily available. Some families will group
together in ready-made burrows or even under houses. Though they will
temporarily occupy abandoned burrows, they do not dig or put much effort
into building their own. As nocturnal animals, they favor dark, secure
areas. These areas may be below ground or above.

Threatened opossums (especially males) will growl deeply, raising their
pitch as the threat becomes more urgent. Males make a clicking "smack"
noise out of the side of their mouths as they wander in search of a
mate, and females will sometimes repeat the sound in return. When
separated or distressed, baby opossums will make a sneezing noise to
signal their mother. If threatened, the baby will open its mouth and
quietly hiss until the threat is gone.

Hissing or squawking is a defensive process that helps the opossum deter
other animals from approaching it.

When threatened or harmed, they will "play possum", mimicking the
appearance and smell of a sick or dead animal. This physiological
response is involuntary (like fainting), rather than a conscious act. In
the case of baby opossums, however, the brain does not always react this
way at the appropriate moment, and therefore they often fail to "play
dead" when threatened. When "playing possum", the animal's lips are
drawn back, the teeth are bared, saliva foams around the mouth, the
eyes, close or half-close, and a foul-smelling fluid is secreted from
the anal glands. Their stiff, curled form can be prodded, turned over,
and even carried away without reaction. The animal will typically regain
consciousness after a period of between 40 minutes and 4 hours, a
process which begins with slight twitchings of the ears.[14]

So they seldom are capable of biting, simply hiss and make noise, hide
out in places (ghettos ) that are often below ground they leech from
others and never improve them, and when threatened..make lots of noise
and then faint in stupid fashions. A single .22 in the skull takes care
of them nicely.

Ayup....Liberals are indeed..Possem People.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

Existential Angst wrote:
.
Awl --

Apropos of the ahr thread Gas vs. electric range, someone spoke favorably
of ventless gas heaters.

Some time ago, it was complete news to me that "ventless gas" heaters even
existed, as I thought it was safety no-no, and also being conditioned to
vented Modine blowers -- not cheap, AND you need a stack.
But after some reading, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven, regarding my
shop heat problem, ie, freezing my ass off.

So I bought TWO, of the "radiant" type, with the ceramic ditty, a small and
a large, plumbed gas to the shop, and BAM, from a heat pov, I was in
seventh heaven. I need not have bought two, and could have easily gotten by
with just the small one! Cheap, too, I think $119 and $79.

But.... BUT.....
The air quality was atrocious!! You could FEEL the air in the back of
your throat -- and I spent many a youthful winter huddled in a gas-heated
kitchen, with no such sensation. A little stuffy, mebbe, but nothing like
this. Almost acrid.

Second, the water vapor.... holy ****..... I don't think a dehumidifier
coulda kept up with the vapor, and the wall above the unit was just
soaked -- not good metal, machinery-wise, OR wall-wise..

They lasted a month, and have been in plastic wrap for years now.

Never could figger out what that smell/sensation was, as they seemed to be
burning clean, altho I never did bring down the CO detector. But I'm sure
had those sensations been related to CO, I'da blacked out or wound up with a
CO migraine.

Too bad, cuz the heat was ossum.
In a sense, the poor air quality mighta been a blessing, cuz I proly woulda
endured the prodigious water vapor, to the long-term detriment of the shop.

Now, I've added lotsa lighting, proly almost 2 kW worth, so THAT helps in
the winter.
That, and a long electric baseboard heater (with a 3 way wall switch, you
can get high heat and a nice low heat, by switching 120 V to it), the
dehumidifer, and the machines themselves keep it OK -- not toasty, like the
ventless gas, but OK. A second portable electric heater helps in the
super-cold. Also calisthenics.... LOL

Whatever is in the air in the shop goes through the heater and is
"burned", but with plenty of combustion air you should get only CO2
and water from the heater. A cold room being brought up to temp will
condense the water vapor so yes the walls and everything else will get
damp until the all is up to normal temp. I use ventless nat gas
heaters and they work great for me. The water vapor problem isn't
enough to keep static electricity down on dry days.
and natural gas is sooooooo cheap,
http://www.barchart.com/commodityfut...Gas_Futures/NG

On Dec 27, 8:40*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Residential furnaces, are made with some kind of protectant on the heat
exchanger. On the first heat, they pump out a lot of stink and fumes. Having
installed furnaces for six years, I'd ought to remembered that.


Having only installed my own recently, I wish they
would tell you that in the manual! I fired up the
120K BTU mother and it filled the house with light
smoke. I suspected it was something in there as
part of the manufacturing process and that it was
normal, but not knowing for sure, you start to wonder
if you dropped a tool with a plastic handle or
something in there.

On Dec 28, 12:11*am, "Existential Angst" wrote:
"Steve W." wrote in message

...





Existential Angst wrote:

The taste was likely due to the Butane that they add for winter use of
propane.
If it tasted sort of like weak weld smoke then it would be the butane
reacting with the catalyst.

Well, this was on natural gas.
But, altho it has been some time, "weak weld smoke" might characterize
it, altho I kind of like welding fumes.
I
But what catalyst are you referring to?
I *was speculating that the ceramic *might* be acting as a catalyst, but
do you know this for sure??

The "ceramic" is actually a metalized item that uses a catalytic reaction
to reduce the CO and convert more of the combustion gases into heat.
The taste is still likely trace butane in the mix. It gets added to help
the lower gases ignite easier when it's cold.

Well, NG is methane, don't think they put butane in there, but there is some
sulfurized hydrocarbon in there, so you can detect gas leaks.

That ceramic must be the problem, then, at least in my cheapie units --
forgot the brand, but I think most proly heard of them.
--

Right, mostly methane. You can google up MSDS's for composition.
Here's one:

https://www.nwnatural.com/uploadedFi...yDataSheet.pdf

Sulfur compounds while down in the ppm level are not insignificant as
a few ppm of the sulfur dioxide combustion product could be
irritating.

Someplace I have an analysis for natural gas in the PA area. Will
have to find it.

On 12/27/2011 7:40 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Residential furnaces, are made with some kind of protectant on the heat
exchanger. On the first heat, they pump out a lot of stink and fumes. Having
installed furnaces for six years, I'd ought to remembered that.

Not all do, anyway...I think it probably was left from installation or
perhaps are using imported units that are shipped via surface container
so do need some corrosion protection.

Just put in two new Carrier units within last 5 months--neither had any
such symptom.

--

Man, that's frieky. I can easily imagine you wondering what is wrong. I'd
also wonder if the thing was about to catch fire, and burn the house down.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

wrote in message
...

Having only installed my own recently, I wish they
would tell you that in the manual! I fired up the
120K BTU mother and it filled the house with light
smoke. I suspected it was something in there as
part of the manufacturing process and that it was
normal, but not knowing for sure, you start to wonder
if you dropped a tool with a plastic handle or
something in there.

On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 14:14:37 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

.
Awl --

Apropos of the ahr thread Gas vs. electric range, someone spoke favorably
of ventless gas heaters.

Some time ago, it was complete news to me that "ventless gas" heaters even
existed, as I thought it was safety no-no, and also being conditioned to
vented Modine blowers -- not cheap, AND you need a stack.
But after some reading, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven, regarding my
shop heat problem, ie, freezing my ass off.

So I bought TWO, of the "radiant" type, with the ceramic ditty, a small and
a large, plumbed gas to the shop, and BAM, from a heat pov, I was in
seventh heaven. I need not have bought two, and could have easily gotten by
with just the small one! Cheap, too, I think $119 and $79.

But.... BUT.....
The air quality was atrocious!! You could FEEL the air in the back of
your throat -- and I spent many a youthful winter huddled in a gas-heated
kitchen, with no such sensation. A little stuffy, mebbe, but nothing like
this. Almost acrid.

Second, the water vapor.... holy ****..... I don't think a dehumidifier
coulda kept up with the vapor, and the wall above the unit was just
soaked -- not good metal, machinery-wise, OR wall-wise..

They lasted a month, and have been in plastic wrap for years now.

Never could figger out what that smell/sensation was, as they seemed to be
burning clean, altho I never did bring down the CO detector. But I'm sure
had those sensations been related to CO, I'da blacked out or wound up with a
CO migraine.

Too bad, cuz the heat was ossum.
In a sense, the poor air quality mighta been a blessing, cuz I proly woulda
endured the prodigious water vapor, to the long-term detriment of the shop.

If you have to redo it now, get one of the vented radiant-pipe
heaters. There's a burner box with a small draft blower at one end, a
20' long black pipe and reflector for over the workbench and your
favorite machines, and then it turns up and vents through the roof.

And the fumes & water vapor go Up and Out.

That, or a Modine "Hot Dawg" style Vented unit heater.

Now, I've added lotsa lighting, proly almost 2 kW worth, so THAT helps in
the winter.
That, and a long electric baseboard heater (with a 3 way wall switch, you
can get high heat and a nice low heat, by switching 120 V to it), the
dehumidifer, and the machines themselves keep it OK -- not toasty, like the
ventless gas, but OK. A second portable electric heater helps in the
super-cold. Also calisthenics.... LOL

Electric heat is just plain stupid, between the low efficiency and the
high cost of electricity most places - Unless you're plugged straight
into Hoover Dam at a deep discount.

The average coal or NG fired power plant burns fuel to make
electricity and loses half the energy as waste, then the utilities
waste another15% getting it to you, and you lose another 10%
converting it back into heat... Burn the gas into heat yourself, and
save on all the losses and paying all the middle-men.

And electric lights are a bad way to generate heat too - they do, but
you really should have them for the light and a heater for heat...

-- Bruce --

"Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)" wrote:

If you have to redo it now, get one of the vented radiant-pipe
heaters. There's a burner box with a small draft blower at one end, a
20' long black pipe and reflector for over the workbench and your
favorite machines, and then it turns up and vents through the roof.

Those things work amazingly well even in a place with open loading dock
doors and 5F wind blowing through. You're still comfortable in a
T-shirt.

Electric heat is just plain stupid, between the low efficiency and the
high cost of electricity most places - Unless you're plugged straight
into Hoover Dam at a deep discount.

I use electric heat in my shop, just a recycled air handler with
electric heat, only running half of the 20KW bank. I'll eventually
reconnect the A/C as well. It may not be the most efficient, but it is
the most cost effective since the equipment cost me nothing. Also here
in N. TX the heating and A/C seasons are fairly short for shop use,
since it doesn't have to match the same temps as the house, just be
comfortable. In the winter 60F is fine when I'm working out there and
set down to 50F when I'm not. In the summer 90F is fine when it's 106F
out.

On 12/28/2011 3:37 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 02:29:32 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:


Crom Yes! I've got a wood stove in my shop. I had a stray tom come
through a month ago, and marked it pretty well from all signs. I
fired it up a week later...and was desperately trying to figure out
if someone had stuffed the stove with innertubes and used tampons
covered in bat ****. I had to hit it with a cup brush and a spray
of engine paint and then refire it up...man that was nasty nasty~!


Gunner, you know better than to let ANY liberal into your shop.

Tom cats and Liberals..very little simularity.
Possems..porkypines...pond scum...thats where they can be found.

Tom cats..are simply Varmints..outside the law. Think of them as
Anarchists. Not libertarians either. Most Liberals dont have half
the balls or brains a tom cat has. Nor the courage.

Hell...Liberals are far far closer to possums. They have teeth, but are
slow moving, slow to think, have no common sense and stink just standing
still. And they raise flocks of kids just like themselves and carry
them around.

Indeed..the more I think of it...the more Liberals are the Possem People

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opossum

Opossums are usually solitary and nomadic, staying in one area as long
as food and water are easily available. Some families will group
together in ready-made burrows or even under houses. Though they will
temporarily occupy abandoned burrows, they do not dig or put much effort
into building their own. As nocturnal animals, they favor dark, secure
areas. These areas may be below ground or above.

Threatened opossums (especially males) will growl deeply, raising their
pitch as the threat becomes more urgent. Males make a clicking "smack"
noise out of the side of their mouths as they wander in search of a
mate, and females will sometimes repeat the sound in return. When
separated or distressed, baby opossums will make a sneezing noise to
signal their mother. If threatened, the baby will open its mouth and
quietly hiss until the threat is gone.

Hissing or squawking is a defensive process that helps the opossum deter
other animals from approaching it.

When threatened or harmed, they will "play possum", mimicking the
appearance and smell of a sick or dead animal. This physiological
response is involuntary (like fainting), rather than a conscious act. In
the case of baby opossums, however, the brain does not always react this
way at the appropriate moment, and therefore they often fail to "play
dead" when threatened. When "playing possum", the animal's lips are
drawn back, the teeth are bared, saliva foams around the mouth, the
eyes, close or half-close, and a foul-smelling fluid is secreted from
the anal glands. Their stiff, curled form can be prodded, turned over,
and even carried away without reaction. The animal will typically regain
consciousness after a period of between 40 minutes and 4 hours, a
process which begins with slight twitchings of the ears.[14]

So they seldom are capable of biting, simply hiss and make noise, hide
out in places (ghettos ) that are often below ground they leech from
others and never improve them, and when threatened..make lots of noise
and then faint in stupid fashions. A single .22 in the skull takes care
of them nicely.

Ayup....Liberals are indeed..Possem People.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

Ya know, some of my kin up in the hills love possum. It adds a unique
flavor to stews and soups. ^_^

TDD

On Dec 28, 2:37*am, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 02:29:32 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

Crom Yes! *I've got a wood stove in my shop. *I had a stray tom come
through a month ago, and marked it pretty well from all signs. I
fired it up a week later...and was desperately trying to figure out
if someone had stuffed the stove with *innertubes and used tampons
covered in bat ****. *I had to hit it with a cup brush and a spray
of engine paint and then refire it up...man that was nasty nasty~!

* Gunner, you know better than to let ANY liberal into your shop.

Tom cats and Liberals..very little simularity.
Possems..porkypines...pond scum...thats where they can be found.

Tom cats..are simply Varmints..outside the law. Think of them as
Anarchists. *Not libertarians either. * Most Liberals dont *have half
the balls or brains a tom cat has. *Nor the courage.

Hell...Liberals are far far closer to possums. They have teeth, but are
slow moving, slow to think, have no common sense and stink just standing
still. *And they raise flocks of kids just like themselves and carry
them around.

Indeed..the more I think of it...the more Liberals are the Possem People

snippage
Ayup....Liberals are indeed..Possem People.

Gunner

Based on the few possums I've had to shoot because they've been in
areas where they weren't welcome, they've got heads of solid bone and
brains the size of peanuts. Plugged one with a .357 in the head at
close range and he was still kicking a half-hour later. Last monster
one took 4 .38s to the head and still took a long time to give up. So
yep, it fits.

Stan

Anytime a flame contacts something, something can happen. The cleanest unit
will just have a blue flame not contacting anything. When a flame contacts
a heat transferring thing, combustion becomes worse. A yellow flame is that
much worse if hits ceramic logs. Room air contaminants can make it much
worse.

Couple years ago, ran kerosene for over two days, and we were suffering.

Was that chinese ceramic?

Greg

On 12/28/2011 18:23, Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable) wrote:
The average coal or NG fired power plant burns fuel to make
electricity and loses half the energy as waste, then the utilities
waste another15% getting it to you, and you lose another 10%
converting it back into heat... Burn the gas into heat yourself, and
save on all the losses and paying all the middle-men.

The last 10% is incorrect. Electrical heating has definitely 100%
efficiency in a closed room. All wiring loss, all radiant loss,
everything turns into heat eventually inside the room.


Depends on the cost of gas if it makes sense..

At least here in Finland :
- burning gas : 0.22 euro/kWh
(about 2.5euro/kg in 10kg tanks, 12.8kWh/kg, 90% efficiency)
- burning light oil : 0.16 euro/kWh
(about 1.1 euro/litre, 10kWh/litre, 70% efficiency)
- direct electrical heating : 0.11euro/kWh

So here, it is actually cheapest to heat with electricity.

I have an air-to-air heat pump running with electricity..
Saves about 20% electricity compared to direct heating with
resistive heaters. Pays for itself in 5 years. Doesn't save
more because there's not so much energy in air to pump when
it is less than -10C and it certainly is a few months a year..

Kristian Ukkonen.