Our cabin recently was subjected to multiple days of no electricity during
to a bad storm taking out trees and power lines
I would like to set up a generator to run the following
1) well water pump 3/4 hp (120v)
2) refrigerator (120v)
3) freezer (120v)
4) hot water heater (240v)
5) stove (240v)

I would like to set it up so that is one appliance is drawing power,
everything else waits.
It would also be nice to set up the chain in the order listed above

It should also be noted that:
a) the stove is optional since there is a great fire pit where food can be
cooked and hot water heated in large enough quantities for hand and
dishwashing and sponge baths.
b) the hot water heater is big enough to hold enough water from one
heating cycle for all daily hand and dishwashing needs + couple of showers.
Which means that unless there are more than 2 people using the cabin, it
would only need to run once - possibly in the morning to start the day
c) the freezer only needs to run once every 2 days
d) the refrigerator only needs to run once a day if access is controlled,
otherwise twice a day will keep it cold enough
e) the well water pump only needs to run if water pressure has dropped
low enough to trigger it.

I already have an electric start generator to run everything at the same
time.
But I would prefer not to load it to the gills at the same time,


So I'm looking at
1) a box that will make sure that when the generator is going, it will
sequentially feed the 5 devices and then shut off by itself when there is no
demand...
2) If the generator is going, then IF a higher priority device wants
power it can bump of a lower priority one. After which the bumped device
gets serviced.


Any help and suggestions are appreciated

On Jul 13, 8:24*pm, "D.A. Tsenuf" wrote:
Our cabin recently was subjected to multiple days of no electricity during
to a bad storm taking out trees and power lines
I would like to set up a generator to run the following
1) * *well water pump 3/4 hp (120v)
2) * *refrigerator (120v)
3) * *freezer (120v)
4) * *hot water heater (240v)
5) * *stove (240v)

I would like to set it up so that is one appliance is drawing power,
everything else waits.
It would also be nice to set up the chain in the order listed above

It should also be noted that:
a) the stove is optional since there is a great fire pit where food can be
cooked and hot water heated in large enough quantities for hand and
dishwashing and sponge baths.
b) * *the hot water heater is big enough to hold enough water from one
heating cycle for all daily hand and dishwashing needs + couple of showers.
Which means that unless there are more than 2 people using the cabin, it
would only need to run once - possibly in the morning to start the day
c) * *the freezer only needs to run once every 2 days
d) * *the refrigerator only needs to run once a day if access is controlled,
otherwise twice a day will keep it cold enough
e) * *the well water pump only needs to run if water pressure has dropped
low enough to trigger it.

I already have an electric start generator to run everything at the same
time.
But I would prefer not to load it to the gills at the same time,

So I'm looking at
1) * *a box that will make sure that when the generator is going, it will
sequentially feed the 5 devices and then shut off by itself when there is no
demand...
2) * *If the generator is going, then IF a higher priority device wants
power it can bump of a lower priority one. After which the bumped device
gets serviced.

Any help and suggestions are appreciated

Well, if you told us the wattage of your appliances it would help.
Your other requirements are not easily met.

The only simple thing would be a series of time switches. However
unless they had a spring reserve/battery backup, they would lose time
when the generator was off

On Jul 13, 3:24*pm, "D.A. Tsenuf" wrote:
Our cabin recently was subjected to multiple days of no electricity during
to a bad storm taking out trees and power lines
I would like to set up a generator to run the following
1) * *well water pump 3/4 hp (120v)
2) * *refrigerator (120v)
3) * *freezer (120v)
4) * *hot water heater (240v)
5) * *stove (240v)

I would like to set it up so that is one appliance is drawing power,
everything else waits.
It would also be nice to set up the chain in the order listed above

It should also be noted that:
a) the stove is optional since there is a great fire pit where food can be
cooked and hot water heated in large enough quantities for hand and
dishwashing and sponge baths.
b) * *the hot water heater is big enough to hold enough water from one
heating cycle for all daily hand and dishwashing needs + couple of showers.
Which means that unless there are more than 2 people using the cabin, it
would only need to run once - possibly in the morning to start the day
c) * *the freezer only needs to run once every 2 days
d) * *the refrigerator only needs to run once a day if access is controlled,
otherwise twice a day will keep it cold enough
e) * *the well water pump only needs to run if water pressure has dropped
low enough to trigger it.

I already have an electric start generator to run everything at the same
time.
But I would prefer not to load it to the gills at the same time,

So I'm looking at
1) * *a box that will make sure that when the generator is going, it will
sequentially feed the 5 devices and then shut off by itself when there is no
demand...
2) * *If the generator is going, then IF a higher priority device wants
power it can bump of a lower priority one. After which the bumped device
gets serviced.

Any help and suggestions are appreciated

I think you're making a simple problem into a very complicated one.
The "box" you're seeking would need current/sensing, relays
on the various loads and a microprocessor to enforce your
rules. I know of no commercially available product,
but if it was availbable, I suspect no one would pay the price
for it for the above application.

You say the generator you have could run everything on the
list, but you don't want to fully load it. So, take the stove
which is a huge load out of the equation, since you say it's
optional. Now you can run everything else at far less than
the generator capacity. Or you can just work the breakers
manually on the loads like the rest of the world does.

Or are you a troll?

On 7/13/2011 3:54 PM, wrote:
On Jul 13, 3:24 pm, "D.A. wrote:
Our cabin recently was subjected to multiple days of no electricity during
to a bad storm taking out trees and power lines
I would like to set up a generator to run the following
1) well water pump 3/4 hp (120v)
2) refrigerator (120v)
3) freezer (120v)
4) hot water heater (240v)
5) stove (240v)

I would like to set it up so that is one appliance is drawing power,
everything else waits.
It would also be nice to set up the chain in the order listed above

It should also be noted that:
a) the stove is optional since there is a great fire pit where food can be
cooked and hot water heated in large enough quantities for hand and
dishwashing and sponge baths.
b) the hot water heater is big enough to hold enough water from one
heating cycle for all daily hand and dishwashing needs + couple of showers.
Which means that unless there are more than 2 people using the cabin, it
would only need to run once - possibly in the morning to start the day
c) the freezer only needs to run once every 2 days
d) the refrigerator only needs to run once a day if access is controlled,
otherwise twice a day will keep it cold enough
e) the well water pump only needs to run if water pressure has dropped
low enough to trigger it.

I already have an electric start generator to run everything at the same
time.
But I would prefer not to load it to the gills at the same time,

So I'm looking at
1) a box that will make sure that when the generator is going, it will
sequentially feed the 5 devices and then shut off by itself when there is no
demand...
2) If the generator is going, then IF a higher priority device wants
power it can bump of a lower priority one. After which the bumped device
gets serviced.

Any help and suggestions are appreciated

I think you're making a simple problem into a very complicated one.
The "box" you're seeking would need current/sensing, relays
on the various loads and a microprocessor to enforce your
rules. I know of no commercially available product,
but if it was availbable, I suspect no one would pay the price
for it for the above application.

You say the generator you have could run everything on the
list, but you don't want to fully load it. So, take the stove
which is a huge load out of the equation, since you say it's
optional. Now you can run everything else at far less than
the generator capacity. Or you can just work the breakers
manually on the loads like the rest of the world does.

Or are you a troll?

It's pretty simple. If he already has a generator that can handle the
entire load, but doesn't want to "load it to the gills at the same
time", just turn something off. The generator is only going to work as
hard as it has to, to keep up with the load. This is why the generator
specs tell how much fuel consumption @ full load, half load, etc.

"D.A. Tsenuf" wrote in
:

Our cabin recently was subjected to multiple days of no electricity
during to a bad storm taking out trees and power lines
I would like to set up a generator to run the following
1) well water pump 3/4 hp (120v)
2) refrigerator (120v)
3) freezer (120v)
4) hot water heater (240v)
5) stove (240v)

I would like to set it up so that is one appliance is drawing power,
everything else waits.
It would also be nice to set up the chain in the order listed above

It should also be noted that:
a) the stove is optional since there is a great fire pit where food
can be cooked and hot water heated in large enough quantities for hand
and dishwashing and sponge baths.
b) the hot water heater is big enough to hold enough water from one
heating cycle for all daily hand and dishwashing needs + couple of
showers. Which means that unless there are more than 2 people using
the cabin, it would only need to run once - possibly in the morning to
start the day c) the freezer only needs to run once every 2 days
d) the refrigerator only needs to run once a day if access is
controlled, otherwise twice a day will keep it cold enough
e) the well water pump only needs to run if water pressure has
dropped low enough to trigger it.

I already have an electric start generator to run everything at the
same time.
But I would prefer not to load it to the gills at the same time,


So I'm looking at
1) a box that will make sure that when the generator is going, it
will sequentially feed the 5 devices and then shut off by itself when
there is no demand...
2) If the generator is going, then IF a higher priority device
wants power it can bump of a lower priority one. After which the
bumped device gets serviced.


Any help and suggestions are appreciated





I already have an electric start generator to run everything at the
same time. But I would prefer not to load it to the gills at the
same time


Why?

On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 16:11:36 -0400, RBM wrote:

On 7/13/2011 3:54 PM, wrote:
On Jul 13, 3:24 pm, "D.A. wrote:
Our cabin recently was subjected to multiple days of no electricity during
to a bad storm taking out trees and power lines
I would like to set up a generator to run the following
1) well water pump 3/4 hp (120v)
2) refrigerator (120v)
3) freezer (120v)
4) hot water heater (240v)
5) stove (240v)

I would like to set it up so that is one appliance is drawing power,
everything else waits.
It would also be nice to set up the chain in the order listed above

It should also be noted that:
a) the stove is optional since there is a great fire pit where food can be
cooked and hot water heated in large enough quantities for hand and
dishwashing and sponge baths.
b) the hot water heater is big enough to hold enough water from one
heating cycle for all daily hand and dishwashing needs + couple of showers.
Which means that unless there are more than 2 people using the cabin, it
would only need to run once - possibly in the morning to start the day
c) the freezer only needs to run once every 2 days
d) the refrigerator only needs to run once a day if access is controlled,
otherwise twice a day will keep it cold enough
e) the well water pump only needs to run if water pressure has dropped
low enough to trigger it.

I already have an electric start generator to run everything at the same
time.
But I would prefer not to load it to the gills at the same time,

So I'm looking at
1) a box that will make sure that when the generator is going, it will
sequentially feed the 5 devices and then shut off by itself when there is no
demand...
2) If the generator is going, then IF a higher priority device wants
power it can bump of a lower priority one. After which the bumped device
gets serviced.

Any help and suggestions are appreciated

I think you're making a simple problem into a very complicated one.
The "box" you're seeking would need current/sensing, relays
on the various loads and a microprocessor to enforce your
rules. I know of no commercially available product,
but if it was availbable, I suspect no one would pay the price
for it for the above application.

You say the generator you have could run everything on the
list, but you don't want to fully load it. So, take the stove
which is a huge load out of the equation, since you say it's
optional. Now you can run everything else at far less than
the generator capacity. Or you can just work the breakers
manually on the loads like the rest of the world does.

Or are you a troll?

It's pretty simple. If he already has a generator that can handle the
entire load, but doesn't want to "load it to the gills at the same
time", just turn something off. The generator is only going to work as
hard as it has to, to keep up with the load. This is why the generator
specs tell how much fuel consumption @ full load, half load, etc.

Yeah, and the easy way to do this is to not cook after a shower. The
OP already has direct control of the biggest item which is the stove.
The rest seems pretty automatic already. He has indirect control of
the water pump, and indirect control over the fridge and freezer
(don't open the door).

The OP can just turn off any of these at the panel.

You can install relays to do this automatically, but it would cost
you.

On 7/13/2011 3:24 PM, D.A. Tsenuf wrote:
Our cabin recently was subjected to multiple days of no electricity
during to a bad storm taking out trees and power lines
I would like to set up a generator to run the following
1) well water pump 3/4 hp (120v)
2) refrigerator (120v)
3) freezer (120v)
4) hot water heater (240v)
5) stove (240v)

I would like to set it up so that is one appliance is drawing power,
everything else waits.
It would also be nice to set up the chain in the order listed above

It should also be noted that:
a) the stove is optional since there is a great fire pit where food can
be cooked and hot water heated in large enough quantities for hand and
dishwashing and sponge baths.
b) the hot water heater is big enough to hold enough water from one
heating cycle for all daily hand and dishwashing needs + couple of
showers. Which means that unless there are more than 2 people using the
cabin, it would only need to run once - possibly in the morning to start
the day
c) the freezer only needs to run once every 2 days
d) the refrigerator only needs to run once a day if access is
controlled, otherwise twice a day will keep it cold enough
e) the well water pump only needs to run if water pressure has dropped
low enough to trigger it.

I already have an electric start generator to run everything at the same
time.
But I would prefer not to load it to the gills at the same time,


So I'm looking at
1) a box that will make sure that when the generator is going, it will
sequentially feed the 5 devices and then shut off by itself when there
is no demand...
2) If the generator is going, then IF a higher priority device wants
power it can bump of a lower priority one. After which the bumped device
gets serviced.


Any help and suggestions are appreciated



Is there any particular reason why it needs to be so complicated and
automagic? If the generator you have can handle all of the load and if
the loads have the duty cycle you described the generator will almost
never need to run at full load (and if it does so what?). If it does and
the generator labors why can't you simply turn off the range or water
heater for a while?

On Jul 13, 4:46*pm, George wrote:
On 7/13/2011 3:24 PM, D.A. Tsenuf wrote:



Our cabin recently was subjected to multiple days of no electricity
during to a bad storm taking out trees and power lines
I would like to set up a generator to run the following
1) well water pump 3/4 hp (120v)
2) refrigerator (120v)
3) freezer (120v)
4) hot water heater (240v)
5) stove (240v)

I would like to set it up so that is one appliance is drawing power,
everything else waits.
It would also be nice to set up the chain in the order listed above

It should also be noted that:
a) the stove is optional since there is a great fire pit where food can
be cooked and hot water heated in large enough quantities for hand and
dishwashing and sponge baths.
b) the hot water heater is big enough to hold enough water from one
heating cycle for all daily hand and dishwashing needs + couple of
showers. Which means that unless there are more than 2 people using the
cabin, it would only need to run once - possibly in the morning to start
the day
c) the freezer only needs to run once every 2 days
d) the refrigerator only needs to run once a day if access is
controlled, otherwise twice a day will keep it cold enough
e) the well water pump only needs to run if water pressure has dropped
low enough to trigger it.

I already have an electric start generator to run everything at the same
time.
But I would prefer not to load it to the gills at the same time,

So I'm looking at
1) a box that will make sure that when the generator is going, it will
sequentially feed the 5 devices and then shut off by itself when there
is no demand...
2) If the generator is going, then IF a higher priority device wants
power it can bump of a lower priority one. After which the bumped device
gets serviced.

Any help and suggestions are appreciated

Is there any particular reason why it needs to be so complicated and
automagic? If the generator you have can handle all of the load and if
the loads have the duty cycle you described the generator will almost
never need to run at full load (and if it does so what?). If it does and
the generator labors why can't you simply turn off the range or water
heater for a while?

I imagine the water is the biggest load. Maybe at least 5 kw.
The stove depending on the elements will be less..
Each device would have to have a relay of required rating. Put the
heater priority first.
This could be a timer, 2 hours before sunrise, 2 hours before dinner.

You would need a computer or processor to do the rest.
Shutting the fridges off during defrost is hazardous, especially
during usage.
Stupid units don't have adjustable setponts, user specified with
control panel, but a smart controller may loose programming with power
off. A lot of problems.. During power outage, manual may be the way to
go.

Greg

On Jul 13, 9:34*pm, "Bob F" wrote:
D.A. Tsenuf wrote:
Our cabin recently was subjected to multiple days of no electricity
during to a bad storm taking out trees and power lines
I would like to set up a generator to run the following
1) * *well water pump 3/4 hp (120v)
2) * *refrigerator (120v)
3) * *freezer (120v)
4) * *hot water heater (240v)
5) * *stove (240v)

I would like to set it up so that is one appliance is drawing power,
everything else waits.
It would also be nice to set up the chain in the order listed above

It should also be noted that:
a) the stove is optional since there is a great fire pit where food
can be cooked and hot water heated in large enough quantities for
hand and dishwashing and sponge baths.
b) * *the hot water heater is big enough to hold enough water from one
heating cycle for all daily hand and dishwashing needs + couple of
showers. Which means that unless there are more than 2 people using
the cabin, it would only need to run once - possibly in the morning
to start the day c) * *the freezer only needs to run once every 2 days
d) * *the refrigerator only needs to run once a day if access is
controlled, otherwise twice a day will keep it cold enough
e) * *the well water pump only needs to run if water pressure has
dropped low enough to trigger it.

I already have an electric start generator to run everything at the
same time.
But I would prefer not to load it to the gills at the same time,

So I'm looking at
1) * *a box that will make sure that when the generator is going, it
will sequentially feed the 5 devices and then shut off by itself when
there is no demand...
2) * *If the generator is going, then IF a higher priority device
wants power it can bump of a lower priority one. After which the
bumped device gets serviced.

Any help and suggestions are appreciated

I'd be really tempted to somehow add an exhaust heat to water heat exchanger for
the water heater. That, and a small pump would provide lots of hot water for
almost no load on the generator. If the generator is water cooled, you could get
even more.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Some years back we were having a problem with oil flow when both the
oil-fired water heater and oil-fired boiler were on at the same time.
We put a relay on the water heater circuit so that if the furnace was
on, the water heater would not run. I suppose that with five
appliances you could hook up a series of five relays in a way to give
a sequence of priorities. There's probably a micro-chip device that
can be programmed to do the same thing, although I've never heard of
one.

Paul

"D.A. Tsenuf" wrote
So I'm looking at
1) a box that will make sure that when the generator is going, it will
sequentially feed the 5 devices and then shut off by itself when there is
no demand...
2) If the generator is going, then IF a higher priority device wants
power it can bump of a lower priority one. After which the bumped device
gets serviced.


Any help and suggestions are appreciated

My suggestion is to use some self control instead of sequencing,
prioritizing, and adding a lot of controls and relays. Don't use a lot of
hot water until the cooking is done. Let the freezer and fridge draw the
few amps they need as called for.

Price this setup first, Then look at how often it is really needed. They
with the money you'd spend on the control panel, buy a bottle of really good
bourbon, a couple of steaks, and relax with them. I bought another bottle
of Maker's Mark 46. That and a couple of rib-eyes makes more sense that the
once in dozen years power/generator problem.

On Jul 13, 10:35*pm, Pavel314 wrote:
On Jul 13, 9:34*pm, "Bob F" wrote:





D.A. Tsenuf wrote:
Our cabin recently was subjected to multiple days of no electricity
during to a bad storm taking out trees and power lines
I would like to set up a generator to run the following
1) * *well water pump 3/4 hp (120v)
2) * *refrigerator (120v)
3) * *freezer (120v)
4) * *hot water heater (240v)
5) * *stove (240v)

I would like to set it up so that is one appliance is drawing power,
everything else waits.
It would also be nice to set up the chain in the order listed above

It should also be noted that:
a) the stove is optional since there is a great fire pit where food
can be cooked and hot water heated in large enough quantities for
hand and dishwashing and sponge baths.
b) * *the hot water heater is big enough to hold enough water from one
heating cycle for all daily hand and dishwashing needs + couple of
showers. Which means that unless there are more than 2 people using
the cabin, it would only need to run once - possibly in the morning
to start the day c) * *the freezer only needs to run once every 2 days
d) * *the refrigerator only needs to run once a day if access is
controlled, otherwise twice a day will keep it cold enough
e) * *the well water pump only needs to run if water pressure has
dropped low enough to trigger it.

I already have an electric start generator to run everything at the
same time.
But I would prefer not to load it to the gills at the same time,

So I'm looking at
1) * *a box that will make sure that when the generator is going, it
will sequentially feed the 5 devices and then shut off by itself when
there is no demand...
2) * *If the generator is going, then IF a higher priority device
wants power it can bump of a lower priority one. After which the
bumped device gets serviced.

Any help and suggestions are appreciated

I'd be really tempted to somehow add an exhaust heat to water heat exchanger for
the water heater. That, and a small pump would provide lots of hot water for
almost no load on the generator. If the generator is water cooled, you could get
even more.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Some years back we were having a problem with oil flow when both the
oil-fired water heater and oil-fired boiler were on at the same time.
We put a relay on the water heater circuit so that if the furnace was
on, the water heater would not run. I suppose that with five
appliances you could hook up a series of five relays in a way to give
a sequence of priorities. There's probably a micro-chip device that
can be programmed to do the same thing, although I've never heard of
one.

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It's pretty straight forward to put a lockout relay on two devices hat
already are controlled by low voltage circuits. What he wants is a
couple orders more complicated.

If ou really have a generator capable of running everything then you
have a pretty large generator. Stoves and electric hw heaters draw a
lot. So you don't really need to worry about it.

On Jul 13, 3:24*pm, "D.A. Tsenuf" wrote:
Our cabin recently was subjected to multiple days of no electricity during
to a bad storm taking out trees and power lines
I would like to set up a generator to run the following
1) * *well water pump 3/4 hp (120v)
2) * *refrigerator (120v)
3) * *freezer (120v)
4) * *hot water heater (240v)
5) * *stove (240v)

I would like to set it up so that is one appliance is drawing power,
everything else waits.
It would also be nice to set up the chain in the order listed above

It should also be noted that:
a) the stove is optional since there is a great fire pit where food can be
cooked and hot water heated in large enough quantities for hand and
dishwashing and sponge baths.
b) * *the hot water heater is big enough to hold enough water from one
heating cycle for all daily hand and dishwashing needs + couple of showers.
Which means that unless there are more than 2 people using the cabin, it
would only need to run once - possibly in the morning to start the day
c) * *the freezer only needs to run once every 2 days
d) * *the refrigerator only needs to run once a day if access is controlled,
otherwise twice a day will keep it cold enough
e) * *the well water pump only needs to run if water pressure has dropped
low enough to trigger it.

I already have an electric start generator to run everything at the same
time.
But I would prefer not to load it to the gills at the same time,

So I'm looking at
1) * *a box that will make sure that when the generator is going, it will
sequentially feed the 5 devices and then shut off by itself when there is no
demand...
2) * *If the generator is going, then IF a higher priority device wants
power it can bump of a lower priority one. After which the bumped device
gets serviced.

Any help and suggestions are appreciated

Heating anything with resistive electric heat is an offense against
the laws of natures God. Since you didn't mention space heating I'll
assume that it is not electric. That raises the question of what it
is fueled by. If you want to put your home on an electricity diet
then put in an propane fueled hot water heater, a propane fueled
stove. You then have a propane adapter fitted to your generator so
that you no longer have to handle gasoline unless you run out of
propane. That would leave only the well pump, refrigerator, and
freezer to be powered by the generator. You will have reduced the
load on the generator considerably and made the generator much easier
to run.

If you really want to implement a priority sequential operating scheme
then you will need four relays with normally closed auxiliary
contacts. The control voltage for all of the relays comes through
each auxiliary contact in turn. As long as the the relays upstream of
the load in question are open then their auxiliary contact will be
closed and control current will be available to the relays down line
from each relays auxiliary contact. If the water pumps relay is
pulled in then the remaining loads will not have control current and
they will remain off. Once the water pressure reaches cut out then
that relay would relax thus closing it's auxiliary contact and
permitting the refrigerator to run. When both the water pump and the
refrigerator have reached their set points the control power would
reach the freezer's relay allowing the freezer to run until it is cold
enough and control current would then be passed along to the hot water
heater. When the hot water heater reaches it's upper limit then it's
relay would relax thus closing it's auxiliary contact and permitting
the stove to get power. If any higher priority load comes on it opens
the control power circuit to the lower priority loads and they drop
out until control power is again available because the relays for the
higher priority load is now open thus closing it's auxiliary contact
and passing control current along the chain to the lower priority
load. This scheme has the virtue of electrical simplicity but it does
mean that you will have to be careful in what load you are using so as
not to start a higher priority load when what you really want to run
at that moment is a lower priority load. Manually opening and closing
switch rated breakers is a much cheaper and somewhat more flexible way
to accomplish this but if you have to have automatic load selection
then that is the simplest means I know to accomplish that.
--
Tom Horne

On Thu, 14 Jul 2011 13:00:02 -0700 (PDT), Tom Horne
wrote:

On Jul 13, 3:24*pm, "D.A. Tsenuf" wrote:
Our cabin recently was subjected to multiple days of no electricity during
to a bad storm taking out trees and power lines
I would like to set up a generator to run the following
1) * *well water pump 3/4 hp (120v)
2) * *refrigerator (120v)
3) * *freezer (120v)
4) * *hot water heater (240v)
5) * *stove (240v)

I would like to set it up so that is one appliance is drawing power,
everything else waits.
It would also be nice to set up the chain in the order listed above

It should also be noted that:
a) the stove is optional since there is a great fire pit where food can be
cooked and hot water heated in large enough quantities for hand and
dishwashing and sponge baths.
b) * *the hot water heater is big enough to hold enough water from one
heating cycle for all daily hand and dishwashing needs + couple of showers.
Which means that unless there are more than 2 people using the cabin, it
would only need to run once - possibly in the morning to start the day
c) * *the freezer only needs to run once every 2 days
d) * *the refrigerator only needs to run once a day if access is controlled,
otherwise twice a day will keep it cold enough
e) * *the well water pump only needs to run if water pressure has dropped
low enough to trigger it.

I already have an electric start generator to run everything at the same
time.
But I would prefer not to load it to the gills at the same time,

So I'm looking at
1) * *a box that will make sure that when the generator is going, it will
sequentially feed the 5 devices and then shut off by itself when there is no
demand...
2) * *If the generator is going, then IF a higher priority device wants
power it can bump of a lower priority one. After which the bumped device
gets serviced.

Any help and suggestions are appreciated

Heating anything with resistive electric heat is an offense against
the laws of natures God. Since you didn't mention space heating I'll
assume that it is not electric. That raises the question of what it
is fueled by. If you want to put your home on an electricity diet
then put in an propane fueled hot water heater, a propane fueled
stove. You then have a propane adapter fitted to your generator so
that you no longer have to handle gasoline unless you run out of
propane. That would leave only the well pump, refrigerator, and
freezer to be powered by the generator. You will have reduced the
load on the generator considerably and made the generator much easier
to run.

If you really want to implement a priority sequential operating scheme
then you will need four relays with normally closed auxiliary
contacts. The control voltage for all of the relays comes through
each auxiliary contact in turn. As long as the the relays upstream of

I think you left out some CTs. I would have to see it on paper to be
able to follow your suggestion. If you get bored, I would like to see
a rough sketch of what you come up with. This doesn't seem to be as
"simple" as you suggest, but I could be wrong.

the load in question are open then their auxiliary contact will be
closed and control current will be available to the relays down line
from each relays auxiliary contact. If the water pumps relay is
pulled in then the remaining loads will not have control current and
they will remain off. Once the water pressure reaches cut out then
that relay would relax thus closing it's auxiliary contact and
permitting the refrigerator to run. When both the water pump and the
refrigerator have reached their set points the control power would
reach the freezer's relay allowing the freezer to run until it is cold
enough and control current would then be passed along to the hot water
heater. When the hot water heater reaches it's upper limit then it's
relay would relax thus closing it's auxiliary contact and permitting
the stove to get power. If any higher priority load comes on it opens
the control power circuit to the lower priority loads and they drop
out until control power is again available because the relays for the
higher priority load is now open thus closing it's auxiliary contact
and passing control current along the chain to the lower priority
load. This scheme has the virtue of electrical simplicity but it does
mean that you will have to be careful in what load you are using so as
not to start a higher priority load when what you really want to run
at that moment is a lower priority load. Manually opening and closing
switch rated breakers is a much cheaper and somewhat more flexible way
to accomplish this but if you have to have automatic load selection
then that is the simplest means I know to accomplish that.

On Jul 13, 10:35*pm, Pavel314 wrote:
On Jul 13, 9:34*pm, "Bob F" wrote:



D.A. Tsenuf wrote:
Our cabin recently was subjected to multiple days of no electricity
during to a bad storm taking out trees and power lines
I would like to set up a generator to run the following
1) * *well water pump 3/4 hp (120v)
2) * *refrigerator (120v)
3) * *freezer (120v)
4) * *hot water heater (240v)
5) * *stove (240v)

I would like to set it up so that is one appliance is drawing power,
everything else waits.
It would also be nice to set up the chain in the order listed above

It should also be noted that:
a) the stove is optional since there is a great fire pit where food
can be cooked and hot water heated in large enough quantities for
hand and dishwashing and sponge baths.
b) * *the hot water heater is big enough to hold enough water from one
heating cycle for all daily hand and dishwashing needs + couple of
showers. Which means that unless there are more than 2 people using
the cabin, it would only need to run once - possibly in the morning
to start the day c) * *the freezer only needs to run once every 2 days
d) * *the refrigerator only needs to run once a day if access is
controlled, otherwise twice a day will keep it cold enough
e) * *the well water pump only needs to run if water pressure has
dropped low enough to trigger it.

I already have an electric start generator to run everything at the
same time.
But I would prefer not to load it to the gills at the same time,

So I'm looking at
1) * *a box that will make sure that when the generator is going, it
will sequentially feed the 5 devices and then shut off by itself when
there is no demand...
2) * *If the generator is going, then IF a higher priority device
wants power it can bump of a lower priority one. After which the
bumped device gets serviced.

Any help and suggestions are appreciated

I'd be really tempted to somehow add an exhaust heat to water heat exchanger for
the water heater. That, and a small pump would provide lots of hot water for
almost no load on the generator. If the generator is water cooled, you could get
even more.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Some years back we were having a problem with oil flow when both the
oil-fired water heater and oil-fired boiler were on at the same time.
We put a relay on the water heater circuit so that if the furnace was
on, the water heater would not run. I suppose that with five
appliances you could hook up a series of five relays in a way to give
a sequence of priorities. There's probably a micro-chip device that
can be programmed to do the same thing, although I've never heard of
one.

Paul

Microprocessor controllers are available for everything from elevators
to traffic signals to industrial washing machines...

Rigging one up to do what the OP wants would cost a lot of money,
require that every load is controlled via a relay panel and would have
to have sensors which could interface the generator to the controller
so it can know when to shed load to wind down when it is about to
fail...

As another reply said here, this is orders of magnitude more complex
than a few relays being interlocked via auxiliary control contacts...

~~ Evan

"Red Green" wrote in message
...
"D.A. Tsenuf" wrote in
:

Our cabin recently was subjected to multiple days of no electricity
during to a bad storm taking out trees and power lines
I would like to set up a generator to run the following
1) well water pump 3/4 hp (120v)
2) refrigerator (120v)
3) freezer (120v)
4) hot water heater (240v)
5) stove (240v)

I would like to set it up so that is one appliance is drawing power,
everything else waits.
It would also be nice to set up the chain in the order listed above

It should also be noted that:
a) the stove is optional since there is a great fire pit where food
can be cooked and hot water heated in large enough quantities for hand
and dishwashing and sponge baths.
b) the hot water heater is big enough to hold enough water from one
heating cycle for all daily hand and dishwashing needs + couple of
showers. Which means that unless there are more than 2 people using
the cabin, it would only need to run once - possibly in the morning to
start the day c) the freezer only needs to run once every 2 days
d) the refrigerator only needs to run once a day if access is
controlled, otherwise twice a day will keep it cold enough
e) the well water pump only needs to run if water pressure has
dropped low enough to trigger it.

I already have an electric start generator to run everything at the
same time.
But I would prefer not to load it to the gills at the same time,


So I'm looking at
1) a box that will make sure that when the generator is going, it
will sequentially feed the 5 devices and then shut off by itself when
there is no demand...
2) If the generator is going, then IF a higher priority device
wants power it can bump of a lower priority one. After which the
bumped device gets serviced.


Any help and suggestions are appreciated





I already have an electric start generator to run everything at the
same time. But I would prefer not to load it to the gills at the
same time


Why?



Because I would like to make the system as efficient as possible and reduce
the running time and increase life-span of the generator, also reduce fuel
consumption.
It's also an interesting automation problem which I believe can be solved in
a cost effective manner.
I am not up to speed on recent technology, since I haven't been involved in
any electrical engineering problem for the last 30+ years (one of 2 minors
on my degree)
I figured there might be someone out there to point me in the right
direction

On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 14:24:20 -0500, "D.A. Tsenuf"
wrote:

Our cabin recently was subjected to multiple days of no electricity during
to a bad storm taking out trees and power lines
I would like to set up a generator to run the following
1) well water pump 3/4 hp (120v)
2) refrigerator (120v)
3) freezer (120v)
4) hot water heater (240v)
5) stove (240v)

I would like to set it up so that is one appliance is drawing power,
everything else waits.
It would also be nice to set up the chain in the order listed above

It should also be noted that:
a) the stove is optional since there is a great fire pit where food can be
cooked and hot water heated in large enough quantities for hand and
dishwashing and sponge baths.
b) the hot water heater is big enough to hold enough water from one
heating cycle for all daily hand and dishwashing needs + couple of showers.
Which means that unless there are more than 2 people using the cabin, it
would only need to run once - possibly in the morning to start the day
c) the freezer only needs to run once every 2 days
d) the refrigerator only needs to run once a day if access is controlled,
otherwise twice a day will keep it cold enough
e) the well water pump only needs to run if water pressure has dropped
low enough to trigger it.

I already have an electric start generator to run everything at the same
time.
But I would prefer not to load it to the gills at the same time,


So I'm looking at
1) a box that will make sure that when the generator is going, it will
sequentially feed the 5 devices and then shut off by itself when there is no
demand...
2) If the generator is going, then IF a higher priority device wants
power it can bump of a lower priority one. After which the bumped device
gets serviced.


Any help and suggestions are appreciated

I hear there may be a few NASA engineers in need of work shortly.

If you have the budget I'm sure you can find someone to design the
system, write the software,find the parts, assemble the parts, and
install.

On Jul 15, 1:25*am, "D.A. Tsenuf" wrote:
"Red Green" wrote in message

...





"D.A. Tsenuf" wrote in
t:

Our cabin recently was subjected to multiple days of no electricity
during to a bad storm taking out trees and power lines
I would like to set up a generator to run the following
1) * *well water pump 3/4 hp (120v)
2) * *refrigerator (120v)
3) * *freezer (120v)
4) * *hot water heater (240v)
5) * *stove (240v)

I would like to set it up so that is one appliance is drawing power,
everything else waits.
It would also be nice to set up the chain in the order listed above

It should also be noted that:
a) the stove is optional since there is a great fire pit where food
can be cooked and hot water heated in large enough quantities for hand
and dishwashing and sponge baths.
b) * *the hot water heater is big enough to hold enough water from one
heating cycle for all daily hand and dishwashing needs + couple of
showers. Which means that unless there are more than 2 people using
the cabin, it would only need to run once - possibly in the morning to
start the day c) * *the freezer only needs to run once every 2 days
d) * *the refrigerator only needs to run once a day if access is
controlled, otherwise twice a day will keep it cold enough
e) * *the well water pump only needs to run if water pressure has
dropped low enough to trigger it.

I already have an electric start generator to run everything at the
same time.
But I would prefer not to load it to the gills at the same time,

So I'm looking at
1) * *a box that will make sure that when the generator is going, it
will sequentially feed the 5 devices and then shut off by itself when
there is no demand...
2) * *If the generator is going, then IF a higher priority device
wants power it can bump of a lower priority one. After which the
bumped device gets serviced.

Any help and suggestions are appreciated

I already have an electric start generator to run everything at the
same time. But I would prefer not to load it to the gills at the
same time

Why?

Because I would like to make the system as efficient as possible and reduce
the running time and increase life-span of the generator, also reduce fuel
consumption.
It's also an interesting automation problem which I believe can be solved in
a cost effective manner.
I am not up to speed on recent technology, since I haven't been involved in
any electrical engineering problem for the last 30+ years (one of 2 minors
on my degree)
I figured there might be someone out there to point me in the right
direction- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It could be done with a computer controlling it or it could be done
electomechanically with a set of relays. Either way you will need to
build it. There is a small control processor that a lot of people
like to play around with if you want to take that path I believe you
can get some kits for it. Either solution will require you to get
some rather large contactors or some pretty big thyristors for most of
your loads. I think you will find it rather frustratng to have your
stove repeatedly turned off as you are trying to cook because other
things needed to come on. I would expect you to have a few hundred
hours as well as several hundred dollars into this before you are
done.

That sound like it's worth it to you? Cause I think the opinion in
the group is that it's not worth it. But perhaps you view this as a
challenge and want to do it for the experience?

Everyone I know with a large generator just moderates their behavior
to manage the load. The minor difference in wear to your generator
from it occasionally working at a higher load is not going to be
noticable.

You never clarified what specific generator you have?

On Jul 15, 1:25*am, "D.A. Tsenuf" wrote:
"Red Green" wrote in message

...





"D.A. Tsenuf" wrote in
t:

Our cabin recently was subjected to multiple days of no electricity
during to a bad storm taking out trees and power lines
I would like to set up a generator to run the following
1) * *well water pump 3/4 hp (120v)
2) * *refrigerator (120v)
3) * *freezer (120v)
4) * *hot water heater (240v)
5) * *stove (240v)

I would like to set it up so that is one appliance is drawing power,
everything else waits.
It would also be nice to set up the chain in the order listed above

It should also be noted that:
a) the stove is optional since there is a great fire pit where food
can be cooked and hot water heated in large enough quantities for hand
and dishwashing and sponge baths.
b) * *the hot water heater is big enough to hold enough water from one
heating cycle for all daily hand and dishwashing needs + couple of
showers. Which means that unless there are more than 2 people using
the cabin, it would only need to run once - possibly in the morning to
start the day c) * *the freezer only needs to run once every 2 days
d) * *the refrigerator only needs to run once a day if access is
controlled, otherwise twice a day will keep it cold enough
e) * *the well water pump only needs to run if water pressure has
dropped low enough to trigger it.

I already have an electric start generator to run everything at the
same time.
But I would prefer not to load it to the gills at the same time,

So I'm looking at
1) * *a box that will make sure that when the generator is going, it
will sequentially feed the 5 devices and then shut off by itself when
there is no demand...
2) * *If the generator is going, then IF a higher priority device
wants power it can bump of a lower priority one. After which the
bumped device gets serviced.

Any help and suggestions are appreciated

I already have an electric start generator to run everything at the
same time. But I would prefer not to load it to the gills at the
same time

Why?

Because I would like to make the system as efficient as possible and reduce
the running time and increase life-span of the generator, also reduce fuel
consumption.

You do realize that fuel consumption is greatly influenced by
the load don't you? For example, I doubt that you will save by
running two 2Kw loads for two hours, as opposed to running
one 4Kw load for one hour. In fact, I would not be surprised
to find you'd use MORE fuel. And certainly the generator is
going to have twice the number of hours and revolutions on it
because it's spinning at exactly the same speed for twice as
long. This sounds like assuming you would save on gas
by making two trips of 100 miles at 30mph instead of one
trip at 60mph.

Usually switching in and out loads is done to reduce
the size/cost of the generator needed. But you've said the
generator you have is capable of handling the entire load.
Given the loads, this generator must be larger than the typical
backup home generator. What is it's capacity?



It's also an interesting automation problem which I believe can be solved in
a cost effective manner.
I am not up to speed on recent technology, since I haven't been involved in
any electrical engineering problem for the last 30+ years (one of 2 minors
on my degree)
I figured there might be someone out there to point me in the right
direction- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

D.A. Tsenuf wrote:


Why?



Because I would like to make the system as efficient as possible and
reduce the running time and increase life-span of the generator, also
reduce fuel consumption.
It's also an interesting automation problem which I believe can be
solved in a cost effective manner.
I am not up to speed on recent technology, since I haven't been
involved in any electrical engineering problem for the last 30+ years
(one of 2 minors on my degree)
I figured there might be someone out there to point me in the right
direction

Ah, well, in that case look up "Shabbos goy."

On 7/15/2011 1:25 AM, D.A. Tsenuf wrote:
"Red Green" wrote in message
...
"D.A. Tsenuf" wrote in
:

Our cabin recently was subjected to multiple days of no electricity
during to a bad storm taking out trees and power lines
I would like to set up a generator to run the following
1) well water pump 3/4 hp (120v)
2) refrigerator (120v)
3) freezer (120v)
4) hot water heater (240v)
5) stove (240v)

I would like to set it up so that is one appliance is drawing power,
everything else waits.
It would also be nice to set up the chain in the order listed above

It should also be noted that:
a) the stove is optional since there is a great fire pit where food
can be cooked and hot water heated in large enough quantities for hand
and dishwashing and sponge baths.
b) the hot water heater is big enough to hold enough water from one
heating cycle for all daily hand and dishwashing needs + couple of
showers. Which means that unless there are more than 2 people using
the cabin, it would only need to run once - possibly in the morning to
start the day c) the freezer only needs to run once every 2 days
d) the refrigerator only needs to run once a day if access is
controlled, otherwise twice a day will keep it cold enough
e) the well water pump only needs to run if water pressure has
dropped low enough to trigger it.

I already have an electric start generator to run everything at the
same time.
But I would prefer not to load it to the gills at the same time,


So I'm looking at
1) a box that will make sure that when the generator is going, it
will sequentially feed the 5 devices and then shut off by itself when
there is no demand...
2) If the generator is going, then IF a higher priority device
wants power it can bump of a lower priority one. After which the
bumped device gets serviced.


Any help and suggestions are appreciated





I already have an electric start generator to run everything at the
same time. But I would prefer not to load it to the gills at the
same time


Why?



Because I would like to make the system as efficient as possible and
reduce the running time and increase life-span of the generator, also
reduce fuel consumption.
It's also an interesting automation problem which I believe can be
solved in a cost effective manner.
I am not up to speed on recent technology, since I haven't been involved
in any electrical engineering problem for the last 30+ years (one of 2
minors on my degree)
I figured there might be someone out there to point me in the right
direction

If that is your goal then it would seem you would immediately get rid of
the major inefficiencies by changing them to a different energy source.
That would be both the electric water heater and the electric range. It
is considerably more efficient to directly burn say propane than it is
to power an engine which spins a alternator to make electricity. Doing
that would also significantly reduce the load on the generator.

On 7/15/2011 8:29 AM, wrote:
On Jul 15, 1:25 am, "D.A. wrote:
"Red wrote in message

...





"D.A. wrote in
:

Our cabin recently was subjected to multiple days of no electricity
during to a bad storm taking out trees and power lines
I would like to set up a generator to run the following
1) well water pump 3/4 hp (120v)
2) refrigerator (120v)
3) freezer (120v)
4) hot water heater (240v)
5) stove (240v)

I would like to set it up so that is one appliance is drawing power,
everything else waits.
It would also be nice to set up the chain in the order listed above

It should also be noted that:
a) the stove is optional since there is a great fire pit where food
can be cooked and hot water heated in large enough quantities for hand
and dishwashing and sponge baths.
b) the hot water heater is big enough to hold enough water from one
heating cycle for all daily hand and dishwashing needs + couple of
showers. Which means that unless there are more than 2 people using
the cabin, it would only need to run once - possibly in the morning to
start the day c) the freezer only needs to run once every 2 days
d) the refrigerator only needs to run once a day if access is
controlled, otherwise twice a day will keep it cold enough
e) the well water pump only needs to run if water pressure has
dropped low enough to trigger it.

I already have an electric start generator to run everything at the
same time.
But I would prefer not to load it to the gills at the same time,

So I'm looking at
1) a box that will make sure that when the generator is going, it
will sequentially feed the 5 devices and then shut off by itself when
there is no demand...
2) If the generator is going, then IF a higher priority device
wants power it can bump of a lower priority one. After which the
bumped device gets serviced.

Any help and suggestions are appreciated

I already have an electric start generator to run everything at the
same time. But I would prefer not to load it to the gills at the
same time

Why?

Because I would like to make the system as efficient as possible and reduce
the running time and increase life-span of the generator, also reduce fuel
consumption.

You do realize that fuel consumption is greatly influenced by
the load don't you? For example, I doubt that you will save by
running two 2Kw loads for two hours, as opposed to running
one 4Kw load for one hour. In fact, I would not be surprised
to find you'd use MORE fuel. And certainly the generator is
going to have twice the number of hours and revolutions on it
because it's spinning at exactly the same speed for twice as
long. This sounds like assuming you would save on gas
by making two trips of 100 miles at 30mph instead of one
trip at 60mph.

Usually switching in and out loads is done to reduce
the size/cost of the generator needed. But you've said the
generator you have is capable of handling the entire load.
Given the loads, this generator must be larger than the typical
backup home generator. What is it's capacity?


Which "typical" do you mean? With the phenomena of McMansions and
everyone needing to drive trucks for personal transportation other
things have scaled up. It isn't at all unusual to have 50 kw gensets
installed for homes to make sure the hot tub and other essentials can be
operated in emergency conditions.




It's also an interesting automation problem which I believe can be solved in
a cost effective manner.
I am not up to speed on recent technology, since I haven't been involved in
any electrical engineering problem for the last 30+ years (one of 2 minors
on my degree)
I figured there might be someone out there to point me in the right
direction- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
D.A. Tsenuf wrote:


Why?



Because I would like to make the system as efficient as possible and
reduce the running time and increase life-span of the generator, also
reduce fuel consumption.
It's also an interesting automation problem which I believe can be
solved in a cost effective manner.
I am not up to speed on recent technology, since I haven't been
involved in any electrical engineering problem for the last 30+ years
(one of 2 minors on my degree)
I figured there might be someone out there to point me in the right
direction

Ah, well, in that case look up "Shabbos goy."

Funny how so many responders can't address the question and instead respond
in other ways...
Just goes to show the rule that 90% of the universe is "chaff" and it most
of life is about separating the wheat from the chaff...

On Jul 13, 3:24*pm, "D.A. Tsenuf" wrote:

Any help and suggestions are appreciated

I'll have someone from our sales department contact you. The
quote will probably come in south of $10,000.

"jamesgangnc" wrote in message
...
On Jul 15, 1:25 am, "D.A. Tsenuf" wrote:
"Red Green" wrote in message

...





"D.A. Tsenuf" wrote in
t:

Our cabin recently was subjected to multiple days of no electricity
during to a bad storm taking out trees and power lines
I would like to set up a generator to run the following
1) well water pump 3/4 hp (120v)
2) refrigerator (120v)
3) freezer (120v)
4) hot water heater (240v)
5) stove (240v)

I would like to set it up so that is one appliance is drawing power,
everything else waits.
It would also be nice to set up the chain in the order listed above

It should also be noted that:
a) the stove is optional since there is a great fire pit where food
can be cooked and hot water heated in large enough quantities for hand
and dishwashing and sponge baths.
b) the hot water heater is big enough to hold enough water from one
heating cycle for all daily hand and dishwashing needs + couple of
showers. Which means that unless there are more than 2 people using
the cabin, it would only need to run once - possibly in the morning to
start the day c) the freezer only needs to run once every 2 days
d) the refrigerator only needs to run once a day if access is
controlled, otherwise twice a day will keep it cold enough
e) the well water pump only needs to run if water pressure has
dropped low enough to trigger it.

I already have an electric start generator to run everything at the
same time.
But I would prefer not to load it to the gills at the same time,

So I'm looking at
1) a box that will make sure that when the generator is going, it
will sequentially feed the 5 devices and then shut off by itself when
there is no demand...
2) If the generator is going, then IF a higher priority device
wants power it can bump of a lower priority one. After which the
bumped device gets serviced.

Any help and suggestions are appreciated

I already have an electric start generator to run everything at the
same time. But I would prefer not to load it to the gills at the
same time

Why?

Because I would like to make the system as efficient as possible and
reduce
the running time and increase life-span of the generator, also reduce fuel
consumption.
It's also an interesting automation problem which I believe can be solved
in
a cost effective manner.
I am not up to speed on recent technology, since I haven't been involved
in
any electrical engineering problem for the last 30+ years (one of 2 minors
on my degree)
I figured there might be someone out there to point me in the right
direction- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
#
# It could be done with a computer controlling it or it could be done
# electomechanically with a set of relays. Either way you will need to
# build it.

Not a problem
Have experience putting together computer controlled devices

# There is a small control processor that a lot of people
l# ike to play around with if you want to take that path I believe you
# can get some kits for it. Either solution will require you to get
# some rather large contactors or some pretty big thyristors for most of
# your loads.

Thank you for point out major parts needed

# I think you will find it rather frustratng to have your
# stove repeatedly turned off as you are trying to cook because other
# things needed to come on.

As pointed out in the original post, the stove is really a minor issue for 2
reasons
1) Minimal use in the summer to keep cabin cool
2) Fire pit set up to cook, and even bake most about anything
Stove to be set up for use as an (low-priority) alternate.


# I would expect you to have a few hundred
# hours as well as several hundred dollars into this before you are
# done.


# That sound like it's worth it to you? Cause I think the opinion in
# the group is that it's not worth it. But perhaps you view this as a
# challenge and want to do it for the experience?
#

That's OK
Some of my "hare-brained" schemes turned into money-makers over the last 40+
years...
Paid for all the others that were economic or technical duds.

Also trying to avoid re-inventing the wheel is such a produc is already on
the market.


#
# Everyone I know with a large generator just moderates their behavior
# to manage the load. The minor difference in wear to your generator
# from it occasionally working at a higher load is not going to be
# noticable.
#
# You never clarified what specific generator you have?

14Kw Generac, that I got in lieu of cash payment.
The cabin, which was built as all electric, will serve as a test bed.
And although the idea of converting to propane is a good one, it's only
going to happen as fridge, stove fail and need to be replaced.

Ultimately would like to move it to city house and then run it off the
natural gas line, as a SHTF backup
The thing about natural gas is that it rarely stops flowing when the power
goes out, and can be backed up with propane if needed.

But I don't want a generator that is running 24/7
I would like to have one that is set up to start when demand occurs, service
the demand, reset all the systems that need re-setting (load up water
pressure, heat up hot water tank, chill down freezer/fridge) and then shut
down and wait for next demand point.

One comment from an OP raised the issue that I do NOT need a linear decision
tree for usage.
In effect if the stove is in use, the only other critical system is water
pump.
So it would be interesting to have hot water tank go on ONLY after water
pump stops but not when pump or fridge/freezer is running.

And I definitely was thinking of running a processor to control the logic
and servicing the systems
Could even be run off the 12V battery for starting the generator.
Could even have a trigger to start the generator if the battery falls below
a certain level of charge.

I think the problem can be solved
What I would like to figure out is:
1) What are the possible solutions
2) What do I need to implement possible solutions
3) What are the final costs involved in such implementation

Ultimately I think my "solution" could be an "intelligent" transfer switch,
that not only separates the circuitry from the (utility) supply line, but
also allows for more efficient use of a smaller generator that does NOT
require a lot of manual control to operate.

On Jul 15, 10:25*am, "D.A. Tsenuf" wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message

m...





D.A. Tsenuf wrote:

Why?

Because I would like to make the system as efficient as possible and
reduce the running time and increase life-span of the generator, also
reduce fuel consumption.
It's also an interesting automation problem which I believe can be
solved in a cost effective manner.
I am not up to speed on recent technology, since I haven't been
involved in any electrical engineering problem for the last 30+ years
(one of 2 minors on my degree)
I figured there might be someone out there to point me in the right
direction

Ah, well, in that case look up "Shabbos goy."

Funny how so many responders can't address the question and instead respond
in other ways...
Just goes to show the rule that 90% of the universe is "chaff" and it most
of life is about separating the wheat from the chaff...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In this case it's more of a question of making sure you understand
what you are getting into. It wasn't clear that you did. It's still
not completely clear. You do wish to build this?

If so narrow it down a bit. There are a lot of answers to your
general question of doing this. How do you wish to proceed? What
mix of digital verses electromechanical infrastructure do you want to
build for this? Do you wish to completely roll your own or is money
no object and assembling this from commercially available stuff an
option. The $10k another poster joked about is not totally outlandish
if you wish to buy a complete or near complete solution.

It's not a task that is beyond some of the members of this group but
even laying out a solution would probably require more time than
anyone is going to provide for free. Best you should expect from here
is some general suggestions on where to start looking. But there are
a number of direction you could head and we'd need to get an idea of
which way you want to go first.

On Jul 15, 11:01*am, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jul 15, 10:25*am, "D.A. Tsenuf" wrote:





"HeyBub" wrote in message

om...

D.A. Tsenuf wrote:

Why?

Because I would like to make the system as efficient as possible and
reduce the running time and increase life-span of the generator, also
reduce fuel consumption.
It's also an interesting automation problem which I believe can be
solved in a cost effective manner.
I am not up to speed on recent technology, since I haven't been
involved in any electrical engineering problem for the last 30+ years
(one of 2 minors on my degree)
I figured there might be someone out there to point me in the right
direction

Ah, well, in that case look up "Shabbos goy."

Funny how so many responders can't address the question and instead respond
in other ways...
Just goes to show the rule that 90% of the universe is "chaff" and it most
of life is about separating the wheat from the chaff...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In this case it's more of a question of making sure you understand
what you are getting into. *It wasn't clear that you did. *It's still
not completely clear. *You do wish to build this?

If so narrow it down a bit. *There are a lot of answers to your
general question of doing this. *How do you wish to proceed? * What
mix of digital verses electromechanical infrastructure do you want to
build for this? *Do you wish to completely roll your own or is money
no object and assembling this from commercially available stuff an
option. *The $10k another poster joked about is not totally outlandish
if you wish to buy a complete or near complete solution.

It's not a task that is beyond some of the members of this group but
even laying out a solution would probably require more time than
anyone is going to provide for free. *Best you should expect from here
is some general suggestions on where to start looking. *But there are
a number of direction you could head and we'd need to get an idea of
which way you want to go first.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Along those lines another aspect I'd give careful consideration to
is pulling permits and having any inspection done, if they are
required, as they are in most cases. I wouldn't want the house
to burn down for whatever reason and then have the insurance
company looking at a melted pile of relays and a homebrew controler,
denying the claim because they claim it caused the fire and did
not meet code.

On Jul 15, 11:12*am, "
wrote:
On Jul 15, 11:01*am, jamesgangnc wrote:





On Jul 15, 10:25*am, "D.A. Tsenuf" wrote:

"HeyBub" wrote in message

om...

D.A. Tsenuf wrote:

Why?

Because I would like to make the system as efficient as possible and
reduce the running time and increase life-span of the generator, also
reduce fuel consumption.
It's also an interesting automation problem which I believe can be
solved in a cost effective manner.
I am not up to speed on recent technology, since I haven't been
involved in any electrical engineering problem for the last 30+ years
(one of 2 minors on my degree)
I figured there might be someone out there to point me in the right
direction

Ah, well, in that case look up "Shabbos goy."

Funny how so many responders can't address the question and instead respond
in other ways...
Just goes to show the rule that 90% of the universe is "chaff" and it most
of life is about separating the wheat from the chaff...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In this case it's more of a question of making sure you understand
what you are getting into. *It wasn't clear that you did. *It's still
not completely clear. *You do wish to build this?

If so narrow it down a bit. *There are a lot of answers to your
general question of doing this. *How do you wish to proceed? * What
mix of digital verses electromechanical infrastructure do you want to
build for this? *Do you wish to completely roll your own or is money
no object and assembling this from commercially available stuff an
option. *The $10k another poster joked about is not totally outlandish
if you wish to buy a complete or near complete solution.

It's not a task that is beyond some of the members of this group but
even laying out a solution would probably require more time than
anyone is going to provide for free. *Best you should expect from here
is some general suggestions on where to start looking. *But there are
a number of direction you could head and we'd need to get an idea of
which way you want to go first.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Along those lines another aspect I'd give careful consideration to
is pulling permits and having any inspection done, if they are
required, as they are in most cases. *I wouldn't want the house
to burn down for whatever reason and then have the insurance
company looking at a melted pile of relays and a homebrew controler,
denying the claim because they claim it caused the fire and did
not meet code.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That's a big generator. Big enough that you do not need to be
concerned about the freezer and fridge. Both of those are a small
fraction of the full capacity. Even a 4 or 5 kw generator is not
going to care about either of those. Frankly your generator isn't
going to care if the hw heater and the well pump are both on either
but you did say you'd like to be able to use a smaller generator.

Since you also took the stove out of the equation now I'd say that you
just have two major loads to deal with. And since you will always
want water when you turn it on now all you really need to do is create
a lockout for the hw heater. You could do that with a currrent
detection device on the pump line and a large contactor in the power
to the hw heater.

On your more complicated scenario the biggest problem I see is that
you want to detect when things are turned on and then decide if you
want to power them or not. Detecting when mechanically switched loads
are turned on could be accomplished with some sort of signal injection
that you would then detect on the other line. But that would not work
on appliances that have electronic controls. Which is more and more
common. Appliances that have electronic controls would need to be
internally modified.

These days you can get thyristors big enough to handle just about any
residential load. You can also get low voltage usb connected i/o
devices that you could use as input/output. That's probably the
direction I'd head.

Good luck with it. We'd love to hear some progress reports with
pictures.

In article , George
wrote:

Which "typical" do you mean? With the phenomena of McMansions and
everyone needing to drive trucks for personal transportation other
things have scaled up. It isn't at all unusual to have 50 kw gensets
installed for homes to make sure the hot tub and other essentials can be
operated in emergency conditions.

Good grief. I hope you're not suggesting people do without a jacuzzi in
an emergency. Barbaric.

Smitty Two wrote in
news
In article , George
wrote:

Which "typical" do you mean? With the phenomena of McMansions and
everyone needing to drive trucks for personal transportation other
things have scaled up. It isn't at all unusual to have 50 kw gensets
installed for homes to make sure the hot tub and other essentials can
be operated in emergency conditions.

Good grief. I hope you're not suggesting people do without a jacuzzi
in an emergency. Barbaric.

I think they made a disaster movie about that Smitty.

"D.A. Tsenuf" wrote in
:

"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
D.A. Tsenuf wrote:


Why?



Because I would like to make the system as efficient as possible and
reduce the running time and increase life-span of the generator,
also reduce fuel consumption.
It's also an interesting automation problem which I believe can be
solved in a cost effective manner.
I am not up to speed on recent technology, since I haven't been
involved in any electrical engineering problem for the last 30+
years (one of 2 minors on my degree)
I figured there might be someone out there to point me in the right
direction

Ah, well, in that case look up "Shabbos goy."

Funny how so many responders can't address the question and instead
respond in other ways...
Just goes to show the rule that 90% of the universe is "chaff" and it
most of life is about separating the wheat from the chaff...


OK, you've had your say. That's the way usenet is.

Good luck with your ****ing generator.


Red Green
PhD - 20-20 Hindsight
School of Hard Knocks

In article ,
Red Green wrote:

Smitty Two wrote in
news
In article , George
wrote:

Which "typical" do you mean? With the phenomena of McMansions and
everyone needing to drive trucks for personal transportation other
things have scaled up. It isn't at all unusual to have 50 kw gensets
installed for homes to make sure the hot tub and other essentials can
be operated in emergency conditions.

Good grief. I hope you're not suggesting people do without a jacuzzi
in an emergency. Barbaric.

I think they made a disaster movie about that Smitty.

That gives me an idea. Obama and Congress should be forced to sit
together naked in a giant hot tub until the debt ceiling issue is
resolved. Let 'em all turn to prunes while they debate the matter. Time
magazine can run a cover photo of it.

"jamesgangnc" wrote in message
...
On Jul 15, 11:12 am, "
wrote:
On Jul 15, 11:01 am, jamesgangnc wrote:





On Jul 15, 10:25 am, "D.A. Tsenuf" wrote:

"HeyBub" wrote in message

om...

D.A. Tsenuf wrote:

Why?

Because I would like to make the system as efficient as possible
and
reduce the running time and increase life-span of the generator,
also
reduce fuel consumption.
It's also an interesting automation problem which I believe can be
solved in a cost effective manner.
I am not up to speed on recent technology, since I haven't been
involved in any electrical engineering problem for the last 30+
years
(one of 2 minors on my degree)
I figured there might be someone out there to point me in the right
direction

Ah, well, in that case look up "Shabbos goy."

Funny how so many responders can't address the question and instead
respond
in other ways...
Just goes to show the rule that 90% of the universe is "chaff" and it
most
of life is about separating the wheat from the chaff...- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

In this case it's more of a question of making sure you understand
what you are getting into. It wasn't clear that you did. It's still
not completely clear. You do wish to build this?

If so narrow it down a bit. There are a lot of answers to your
general question of doing this. How do you wish to proceed? What
mix of digital verses electromechanical infrastructure do you want to
build for this? Do you wish to completely roll your own or is money
no object and assembling this from commercially available stuff an
option. The $10k another poster joked about is not totally outlandish
if you wish to buy a complete or near complete solution.

It's not a task that is beyond some of the members of this group but
even laying out a solution would probably require more time than
anyone is going to provide for free. Best you should expect from here
is some general suggestions on where to start looking. But there are
a number of direction you could head and we'd need to get an idea of
which way you want to go first.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Along those lines another aspect I'd give careful consideration to
is pulling permits and having any inspection done, if they are
required, as they are in most cases. I wouldn't want the house
to burn down for whatever reason and then have the insurance
company looking at a melted pile of relays and a homebrew controler,
denying the claim because they claim it caused the fire and did
not meet code.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
#
# That's a big generator. Big enough that you do not need to be
# concerned about the freezer and fridge. Both of those are a small
# fraction of the full capacity. Even a 4 or 5 kw generator is not
# going to care about either of those. Frankly your generator isn't
# going to care if the hw heater and the well pump are both on either
# but you did say you'd like to be able to use a smaller generator.


Completely agree
But my ultimate intent is to set up the cabin with a smaller one that only
works when needed possibly off a large propane tank, and move the big one to
the city house and attach it to the natural gas line.
City house has natural gas heat, hot water, & cooking stove. Also no water
pump.
Power needed for lights, air circulation and other devices.
Again, this generator is overkill - But I'm $0 out of pocket with it. Might
even trade down to a couple of 5-8kw generators that would be more suitable
in size to my needs

So the real purpose of this exercise is to see
a) if my idea is feasible
b) cost-effective
c) worth the effort.

Consider the idea of having a system where you throw 1 switch and tell your
generator "go to it- do your thing - but don't run all day - or during the
night"..
At the cabin where life is supposed to be simple, a few steps are no big
deal.

#
# Since you also took the stove out of the equation now I'd say that you
# just have two major loads to deal with. And since you will always
# want water when you turn it on now all you really need to do is create
# a lockout for the hw heater. You could do that with a currrent
# detection device on the pump line and a large contactor in the power
# to the hw heater.
#
# On your more complicated scenario the biggest problem I see is that
# you want to detect when things are turned on and then decide if you
# want to power them or not. Detecting when mechanically switched loads
# are turned on could be accomplished with some sort of signal injection
# that you would then detect on the other line. But that would not work
# on appliances that have electronic controls. Which is more and more
# common. Appliances that have electronic controls would need to be
# internally modified.
#
# These days you can get thyristors big enough to handle just about any
# residential load. You can also get low voltage usb connected i/o
# devices that you could use as input/output. That's probably the
# direction I'd head.
#
# Good luck with it. We'd love to hear some progress reports with
# pictures.

From input gleaned, I'm thinking a small flow detector and or pressure
detector on the water pipe to tell me of water use and remaining water
pressure.
Such already exists on well pump, So tapping into that circuit can solve
that

Hot water heater is locked out, until water pump is done and no other device
is on.
Fridge and Freezer could be programmed to turn on x times a day to make sure
they are cold enough. Setting up the generator to start on that schedule is
no biggy

Electric stove use could require an on switch to generator before use and
lock out other devices until done.
And when done, the system could cycle through all the other devices to make
sure they are nominal.
Then the generator shuts off.

And to the poster who made the remark about using electricity to generate
heat, I'm from Quebec originally, where Hydro was so plentiful and cheap
that a great many houses were electric only.
That thinking changed suddenly in the Ice Storm of 1998 (thankfully a few
years AFTER I left Quebec

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article , George
wrote:

Which "typical" do you mean? With the phenomena of McMansions and
everyone needing to drive trucks for personal transportation other
things have scaled up. It isn't at all unusual to have 50 kw gensets
installed for homes to make sure the hot tub and other essentials can be
operated in emergency conditions.

Good grief. I hope you're not suggesting people do without a jacuzzi in
an emergency. Barbaric.



Not to mention computers, internet access and even phone chargers..
You can't even survive in the wilds of Wisconsin without that much
theses days according to my kids.

"Red Green" wrote in message
...
Smitty Two wrote in
news
In article , George
wrote:

Which "typical" do you mean? With the phenomena of McMansions and
everyone needing to drive trucks for personal transportation other
things have scaled up. It isn't at all unusual to have 50 kw gensets
installed for homes to make sure the hot tub and other essentials can
be operated in emergency conditions.

Good grief. I hope you're not suggesting people do without a jacuzzi
in an emergency. Barbaric.

I think they made a disaster movie about that Smitty.


Yes.
I remember Towering Jacuzzi..
It was horrible
Had nightmares for weeks.

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article ,
Red Green wrote:

Smitty Two wrote in
news

Good grief. I hope you're not suggesting people do without a jacuzzi
in an emergency. Barbaric.

I think they made a disaster movie about that Smitty.

That gives me an idea. Obama and Congress should be forced to sit
together naked in a giant hot tub until the debt ceiling issue is
resolved. Let 'em all turn to prunes while they debate the matter. Time
magazine can run a cover photo of it.

Ish..
Although the idea of sitting with that prune Pelosi in a hot tub to
could be a strong motivator to get things done.

"Red Green" wrote in message
...
"D.A. Tsenuf" wrote in
:

"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
D.A. Tsenuf wrote:


Why?



Because I would like to make the system as efficient as possible and
reduce the running time and increase life-span of the generator,
also reduce fuel consumption.
It's also an interesting automation problem which I believe can be
solved in a cost effective manner.
I am not up to speed on recent technology, since I haven't been
involved in any electrical engineering problem for the last 30+
years (one of 2 minors on my degree)
I figured there might be someone out there to point me in the right
direction

Ah, well, in that case look up "Shabbos goy."

Funny how so many responders can't address the question and instead
respond in other ways...
Just goes to show the rule that 90% of the universe is "chaff" and it
most of life is about separating the wheat from the chaff...


OK, you've had your say. That's the way usenet is.


Yes.
And so have you..


Good luck with your ****ing generator.


Why thank you
But luck is really not needed on this one..

In article ,
"D.A. Tsenuf" wrote:

So the real purpose of this exercise is to see
a) if my idea is feasible
b) cost-effective
c) worth the effort.

Would you agree that the consensus of response seems to be:

a. sure
b. no
c. hell no

?

On Jul 16, 9:38*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
*"D.A. Tsenuf" wrote:

So the real purpose of this exercise is to see
a) * *if my idea is feasible
b) * *cost-effective
c) * *worth the effort.

Would you agree that the consensus of response seems to be:

a. sure
b. no
c. hell no

?

My votes are yes, no, no.

On Sat, 16 Jul 2011 08:51:19 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc
wrote:

On Jul 16, 9:38*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
*"D.A. Tsenuf" wrote:

So the real purpose of this exercise is to see
a) * *if my idea is feasible
b) * *cost-effective
c) * *worth the effort.

Would you agree that the consensus of response seems to be:

a. sure
b. no
c. hell no

?

My votes are yes, no, no.

There was a question in the HepC support group.
Can pets get hepatitis? One answer was yes. One answer was no. And
one answer was.......not unless you are having rough sex with it.

On Jul 16, 11:51*am, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jul 16, 9:38*am, Smitty Two wrote:

In article ,
*"D.A. Tsenuf" wrote:

So the real purpose of this exercise is to see
a) * *if my idea is feasible
b) * *cost-effective
c) * *worth the effort.

Would you agree that the consensus of response seems to be:

a. sure
b. no
c. hell no

?

My votes are yes, no, no.

Ditto.