I get no power to a kitchen stove, and I notice it's 50 amp circuit
breaker flops loosely back and forth (in old westinghouse wpa panel).
Does this mean the breaker needs replacing, or can it be coaxed to
work somehow? Or could it be ok and it's not being fed power (but
adjacent breakers work ok)? The stove hasn't drawn power except for
it's clock for a dozen years, so maybe salt air corrosion took effect
on contacts?

The next issue is fixing it... not easily turned off due to being a
multi family unit panel. Building power will be turned off for a
coming maintenance day, but without working elevators no electrician
will want to climb the many stories to work on it. Can I fix it
myself? I don't see any way to detach the metal frame from it.

thanks

On Sat, 14 May 2011 11:11:51 -0700 (PDT), dumbstruck
wrote:

I get no power to a kitchen stove, and I notice it's 50 amp circuit
breaker flops loosely back and forth (in old westinghouse wpa panel).
Does this mean the breaker needs replacing, or can it be coaxed to
work somehow? Or could it be ok and it's not being fed power (but
adjacent breakers work ok)? The stove hasn't drawn power except for
it's clock for a dozen years, so maybe salt air corrosion took effect
on contacts?

The circuit breaker should reset if you move the handle *ALL* the way to the
"off" position and then back to the "on" position. If it flops around that
far, it's toast. Replace it.

The next issue is fixing it... not easily turned off due to being a
multi family unit panel.

That doesn't sound kosher.

Building power will be turned off for a
coming maintenance day, but without working elevators no electrician
will want to climb the many stories to work on it. Can I fix it
myself? I don't see any way to detach the metal frame from it.

The cover should just unscrew. Replacing breakers is easy (make sure to get
the same brand and style as the panel). Really, it's so easy that if you have
to ask these questions it may be a better idea to pay someone to do it. It
*can* be dangerous.

It sounds dangerous. I'd call the landlord, and get help.
Some electricians change breakers while the panel is "hot".
But, they have training.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"dumbstruck" wrote in message
...
I get no power to a kitchen stove, and I notice it's 50 amp
circuit
breaker flops loosely back and forth (in old westinghouse
wpa panel).
Does this mean the breaker needs replacing, or can it be
coaxed to
work somehow? Or could it be ok and it's not being fed power
(but
adjacent breakers work ok)? The stove hasn't drawn power
except for
it's clock for a dozen years, so maybe salt air corrosion
took effect
on contacts?

The next issue is fixing it... not easily turned off due to
being a
multi family unit panel. Building power will be turned off
for a
coming maintenance day, but without working elevators no
electrician
will want to climb the many stories to work on it. Can I fix
it
myself? I don't see any way to detach the metal frame from
it.

thanks

On May 14, 2:11*pm, dumbstruck wrote:
I get no power to a kitchen stove, and I notice it's 50 amp circuit
breaker flops loosely back and forth (in old westinghouse wpa panel).
Does this mean the breaker needs replacing, or can it be coaxed to
work somehow? Or could it be ok and it's not being fed power (but
adjacent breakers work ok)? The stove hasn't drawn power except for
it's clock for a dozen years, so maybe salt air corrosion took effect
on contacts?

The next issue is fixing it... not easily turned off due to being a
multi family unit panel. Building power will be turned off for a
coming maintenance day, but without working elevators no electrician
will want to climb the many stories to work on it. Can I fix it
myself? I don't see any way to detach the metal frame from it.

thanks

CALL ME...I'LL GHOST IT FOR YOU.
BUT FIRST PUSH THE BREAKERS LEVER ALL THE WAY TO OFF, UNTIL YOU HERE A
CLICK.
THEN RESET IT, TO THE ON POSITION......YOU CAN PAY ME LATER.
TGITM

On Sat, 14 May 2011 14:26:43 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

It sounds dangerous. I'd call the landlord, and get help.
Some electricians change breakers while the panel is "hot".
But, they have training.

There's no "main" in the panel?

"dumbstruck" wrote in message
...
I get no power to a kitchen stove, and I notice it's 50 amp circuit
breaker flops loosely back and forth (in old westinghouse wpa panel).
Does this mean the breaker needs replacing, or can it be coaxed to
work somehow? Or could it be ok and it's not being fed power (but
adjacent breakers work ok)? The stove hasn't drawn power except for
it's clock for a dozen years, so maybe salt air corrosion took effect
on contacts?

The next issue is fixing it... not easily turned off due to being a
multi family unit panel. Building power will be turned off for a
coming maintenance day, but without working elevators no electrician
will want to climb the many stories to work on it. Can I fix it
myself? I don't see any way to detach the metal frame from it.

thanks

**Depending upon the buildings electrical setup, and equipment, it may or
may not be an easy replacement. If the panel is in your apt, there will be a
main circuit breaker where the electric meters are, that should kill power
to your panel. Once the panel is dead, and verified dead, you can open the
panel. It may have a 2 piece cover. It may have clips, clamps or screws to
open it, but definitely something should be visible. Once it's opened,
typical residential Westinghouse circuit breaker is a push on type and will
come out if you pull on the buss end, the end opposite where the wire is
attached. You may also have a bolt on type, which will have a metal tab
screwed to the buss. If so, the screws will be visible

On May 14, 9:33*am, "RBM" wrote:

**Depending upon the buildings electrical setup, and equipment, it may or
may not be an easy replacement. If the panel is in your apt, there will be a
main circuit breaker where the electric meters are, that should kill power

I know how to kill power for our floor; there is just a concern how I
will kill grannies in the neighboring units who are on life support
machines or whatever. Nobody pays attentions to notices I may give
beforehand... well that's a side issue about me wanting to do it when
the whole building and thus elevator is shut down. I would have to be
ready with the right tools and hardware.

to your panel. Once the panel is dead, and verified dead, you can open the
panel. It may have a 2 piece cover. It may have clips, clamps or screws to
open it, but definitely something should be visible. Once it's opened,

Holy moley, I had seen a disengaged clamp on one side (thought it was
to lock the door) but now I found little slots to unclamp the other 4
sides. This converts the 20 pound cover into a guillotine blade trying
to shoot straight down and amputate the feet (same thing on the
reclamp which it strongly resists doing).

typical residential Westinghouse circuit breaker is a push on type and will
come out if you pull on the buss end, the end opposite where the wire is
attached. You may also have a bolt on type, which will have a metal tab
screwed to the buss. If so, the screws will be visible

This is a 35 year old big industrial size unit. It looks like breakers
could only come out to the side where the wires attach. I can just
barely see a little quarter inch hex nut hidden there; maybe getting a
socket wrench on that will set it free? Even if unlocked, it looks
almost impossible to get out due to the geometry, and maybe some other
framework has to be removed (big job).

I guess the next step is to find some place selling possibly obsolete
circuit breaker types and look at the screws. Maybe I will shoot wd40
into it first, because why would an unused circuit breaker fail. Maybe
a leaf spring broke? Thanks... want to avoid another expensive service
visit like the plumber who charged me 5X what was justified and stole
some repair material from me.

On Sat, 14 May 2011 12:57:53 -0700 (PDT), dumbstruck
wrote:

On May 14, 9:33*am, "RBM" wrote:

**Depending upon the buildings electrical setup, and equipment, it may or
may not be an easy replacement. If the panel is in your apt, there will be a
main circuit breaker where the electric meters are, that should kill power

I know how to kill power for our floor; there is just a concern how I
will kill grannies in the neighboring units who are on life support
machines or whatever. Nobody pays attentions to notices I may give
beforehand... well that's a side issue about me wanting to do it when
the whole building and thus elevator is shut down. I would have to be
ready with the right tools and hardware.

Sounds like it's not *your* circuit breaker to fix at all. Talk to your
landlord (or the condo association).

to your panel. Once the panel is dead, and verified dead, you can open the
panel. It may have a 2 piece cover. It may have clips, clamps or screws to
open it, but definitely something should be visible. Once it's opened,

Holy moley, I had seen a disengaged clamp on one side (thought it was
to lock the door) but now I found little slots to unclamp the other 4
sides. This converts the 20 pound cover into a guillotine blade trying
to shoot straight down and amputate the feet (same thing on the
reclamp which it strongly resists doing).

You can't lift "20 pounds"?

typical residential Westinghouse circuit breaker is a push on type and will
come out if you pull on the buss end, the end opposite where the wire is
attached. You may also have a bolt on type, which will have a metal tab
screwed to the buss. If so, the screws will be visible

This is a 35 year old big industrial size unit. It looks like breakers
could only come out to the side where the wires attach. I can just
barely see a little quarter inch hex nut hidden there; maybe getting a
socket wrench on that will set it free? Even if unlocked, it looks
almost impossible to get out due to the geometry, and maybe some other
framework has to be removed (big job).

I guess the next step is to find some place selling possibly obsolete
circuit breaker types and look at the screws. Maybe I will shoot wd40
into it first, because why would an unused circuit breaker fail. Maybe
a leaf spring broke? Thanks... want to avoid another expensive service
visit like the plumber who charged me 5X what was justified and stole
some repair material from me.

Maybe it's unused because it doesn't. Do *not* squirt WD-40, or anything else
into the circuit breaker.

"dumbstruck" wrote in message
...
On May 14, 9:33 am, "RBM" wrote:

**Depending upon the buildings electrical setup, and equipment, it may or
may not be an easy replacement. If the panel is in your apt, there will be
a
main circuit breaker where the electric meters are, that should kill power

I know how to kill power for our floor; there is just a concern how I
will kill grannies in the neighboring units who are on life support
machines or whatever. Nobody pays attentions to notices I may give
beforehand... well that's a side issue about me wanting to do it when
the whole building and thus elevator is shut down. I would have to be
ready with the right tools and hardware.

to your panel. Once the panel is dead, and verified dead, you can open the
panel. It may have a 2 piece cover. It may have clips, clamps or screws to
open it, but definitely something should be visible. Once it's opened,

Holy moley, I had seen a disengaged clamp on one side (thought it was
to lock the door) but now I found little slots to unclamp the other 4
sides. This converts the 20 pound cover into a guillotine blade trying
to shoot straight down and amputate the feet (same thing on the
reclamp which it strongly resists doing).

typical residential Westinghouse circuit breaker is a push on type and
will
come out if you pull on the buss end, the end opposite where the wire is
attached. You may also have a bolt on type, which will have a metal tab
screwed to the buss. If so, the screws will be visible

This is a 35 year old big industrial size unit. It looks like breakers
could only come out to the side where the wires attach. I can just
barely see a little quarter inch hex nut hidden there; maybe getting a
socket wrench on that will set it free? Even if unlocked, it looks
almost impossible to get out due to the geometry, and maybe some other
framework has to be removed (big job).

I guess the next step is to find some place selling possibly obsolete
circuit breaker types and look at the screws. Maybe I will shoot wd40
into it first, because why would an unused circuit breaker fail. Maybe
a leaf spring broke? Thanks... want to avoid another expensive service
visit like the plumber who charged me 5X what was justified and stole
some repair material from me.

**If you can post some pictures, it'll be very easy to determine how it
comes out

On May 14, 10:05*am, "
wrote:

You can't lift "20 pounds"?

There is nowhere to grasp - The front panel is absolutely flush and I
only can hold a sweaty hand against the slippery surface (hot and
humid there). While jostling with the uncooperative clamps, the panel
can flex a bit and disengage the tiny tab that holds the weight. Not
owning steel toed boots, I guess I should wear gloves or keep the
swing door flopping open for a place to grasp.

Maybe it's unused because it doesn't. *Do *not* squirt WD-40, or anything else
into the circuit breaker.

Well, like I said it only ran a clock - I guess underused electrical
stuff tends to corrode faster. Darn it about WD - maybe duct taping
the switch in the on position?

To get a replacement breaker, how to I tell what the voltage is (240
only or 120/240)? and number of poles? I seem to remember only 2 fat
wires going in. Also there is a 2 letter code for these replacement
that I have to figure out. tks again.

On Sat, 14 May 2011 13:29:08 -0700 (PDT), dumbstruck
wrote:

On May 14, 10:05*am, "
wrote:

You can't lift "20 pounds"?

There is nowhere to grasp - The front panel is absolutely flush and I
only can hold a sweaty hand against the slippery surface (hot and
humid there). While jostling with the uncooperative clamps, the panel
can flex a bit and disengage the tiny tab that holds the weight. Not
owning steel toed boots, I guess I should wear gloves or keep the
swing door flopping open for a place to grasp.

Oh, good grief.

Maybe it's unused because it doesn't. *Do *not* squirt WD-40, or anything else
into the circuit breaker.

Well, like I said it only ran a clock - I guess underused electrical
stuff tends to corrode faster. Darn it about WD - maybe duct taping
the switch in the on position?

Don't be ridiculous. It's not "corroded". You can't set it. Tape isn't
going to do *anything*.

To get a replacement breaker, how to I tell what the voltage is (240
only or 120/240)?

How wide is it. Two positions or one? (It'll be two, it is a range, right?)

and number of poles?

One switch or two? (It'll be two, it is a range, right?_)

I seem to remember only 2 fat
wires going in.

So you've had the panel off?

Also there is a 2 letter code for these replacement
that I have to figure out. tks again.

Take the information off the panel and take that down to your local BORG.
....or do a web search.

On May 14, 10:27*am, "RBM" wrote:
**If you can post some pictures, it'll be very easy to determine how it
comes out

These came out pretty fuzzy, but see the double circuit 29/31 with the
fat wires:
http://i54.tinypic.com/2jcg1td.jpg
http://i51.tinypic.com/b9fyfd.jpg
http://i56.tinypic.com/op2yx0.jpg
http://i55.tinypic.com/dh8paq.jpg
http://i56.tinypic.com/2wem8u8.jpg

I'm guessing it is close to http://www.relectric.com/Store/Circuit-Breakers/BAB2050
as a westinghouse "ba" 2 pole 50 amp, but the my switch toggle doesn't
bridge both.
Not sure of the voltage or how to remove (socket wrench?). Thank you

"dumbstruck" wrote in message
...
On May 14, 10:27 am, "RBM" wrote:
**If you can post some pictures, it'll be very easy to determine how it
comes out

These came out pretty fuzzy, but see the double circuit 29/31 with the
fat wires:
http://i54.tinypic.com/2jcg1td.jpg
http://i51.tinypic.com/b9fyfd.jpg
http://i56.tinypic.com/op2yx0.jpg
http://i55.tinypic.com/dh8paq.jpg
http://i56.tinypic.com/2wem8u8.jpg

I'm guessing it is close to
http://www.relectric.com/Store/Circuit-Breakers/BAB2050
as a westinghouse "ba" 2 pole 50 amp, but the my switch toggle doesn't
bridge both.
Not sure of the voltage or how to remove (socket wrench?). Thank you

** You have to remove the interior cover. There are usually 4 screws. Once
that cover is removed, you can see if the panel uses snap in or bolt in
breakers. That particular circuit breaker bridges both poles internally.

**If you can post some pictures, it'll be very easy to determine how it
comes out

These came out pretty fuzzy, but see the double circuit 29/31 with the
fat wires:
http://i54.tinypic.com/2jcg1td.jpg
http://i51.tinypic.com/b9fyfd.jpg
http://i56.tinypic.com/op2yx0.jpg
http://i55.tinypic.com/dh8paq.jpg
http://i56.tinypic.com/2wem8u8.jpg

I'm guessing it is close to
http://www.relectric.com/Store/Circuit-Breakers/BAB2050
as a westinghouse "ba" 2 pole 50 amp, but the my switch toggle doesn't
bridge both.
Not sure of the voltage or how to remove (socket wrench?). Thank you


*As RBM previously mentioned those breakers look like they just stab onto
the buss after getting hooked on the side. If that is the case you would
need to remove that inner cover, remove the wires, and give it a yank out
from the center. An electrician can do this while the panel is hot.
Because of the spacing between the two columns of circuit breakers, it is
possible that these are bolt-on circuit breakers. In which case you would
need an insulated screwdriver or insulated nutdriver to unscrew the breaker
from the buss. If you remove the inner cover, you will see right away if
the breakers are bolted on.

I'm not sure about the proper replacement. It may take a type BR breaker if
they are the stab-in type. If there are any labels on the cover or inside
the panel it may state what breakers are approved for that panel.

You could take some better pictures and go to an electrical supply company
and show them to try and match it up. It is possible that an old timer in
the supply house will know exactly what breaker you need.

On May 14, 5:57*pm, dumbstruck wrote:
On May 14, 10:27*am, "RBM" wrote:

**If you can post some pictures, it'll be very easy to determine how it
comes out

These came out pretty fuzzy, but see the double circuit 29/31 with the
fat wires:http://i54.tinypic.com/2jcg1td.jpght...om/2wem8u8.jpg

I'm guessing it is close tohttp://www.relectric.com/Store/Circuit-Breakers/BAB2050
as a westinghouse "ba" 2 pole 50 amp, but the my switch toggle doesn't
bridge both.
Not sure of the voltage or how to remove (socket wrench?). Thank you


@dumbstruck:

That is clearly *NOT* your electrical panel to be fixing AT ALL...

Inform your landlord that your stove no longer works because
you can not reset it's circuit breaker...

Besides it not being your panel to work on let's address the
other obvious issues he

1. You have only removed the outer panel trim cover, that
is a commercial grade load center panel and it has an
inner cover plate that secures the breakers and covers the
busbars so people like you won't get hurt when you try to
poke around inside a panel you have no business touching...

2. You wouldn't have to shut off power to the whole floor
to work on that one panel, the fact that you do not know this
means that you shouldn't be working on that panel even if
you had legal control over it and had authority to effect
any repairs...

Even if you weren't paying for your electricity individually
each power panel requires having a means of disconnect
so it can be worked on without killing the entire building...

3. Your first inclination to try and solve the problem here
(being an old failed circuit breaker) was to ponder whether
spraying WD-40 (a highly flammable liquid and propellant)
into an electrical panel where ignition of the flammable
substances is a very probable outcome... Even if the
problem with the dead breaker was as simple as a broken
spring, the breaker is designed so that the failure of any
component would open the circuit so that the lack of
power triggers investigation and replacement of the
failed device, if the circuit stayed closed after something
broke or failed you wouldn't know about it until after it
caught on fire...

4. How large is your unit/apartment/whatever, that seems
like an awfully large panel with a large number of circuits
in it to be servicing only one unit... If it is serving more than
one unit, you don't have the authority to repair it on your
own, only the landlord does...

This repair is clearly above you both in the techniques that
are required to complete the work and your level of physical
endurance... Leave it well enough alone and call your
landlord so that the building maintenance/electrical contractor
can be scheduled to repair it properly...

~~ Evan

On May 14, 2:25*pm, "
wrote:
On Sat, 14 May 2011 11:11:51 -0700 (PDT), dumbstruck
wrote:

I get no power to a kitchen stove, and I notice it's 50 amp circuit
breaker flops loosely back and forth (in old westinghouse wpa panel).
Does this mean the breaker needs replacing, or can it be coaxed to
work somehow? Or could it be ok and it's not being fed power (but
adjacent breakers work ok)? The stove hasn't drawn power except for
it's clock for a dozen years, so maybe salt air corrosion took effect
on contacts?

The circuit breaker should reset if you move the handle *ALL* the way to the
"off" position and then back to the "on" position. *If it flops around that
far, it's toast. *Replace it.

The next issue is fixing it... not easily turned off due to being a
multi family unit panel.

That doesn't sound kosher.

Building power will be turned off for a
coming maintenance day, but without working elevators no electrician
will want to climb the many stories to work on it. Can I fix it
myself? I don't see any way to detach the metal frame from it.

The cover should just unscrew. *Replacing breakers is easy (make sure to get
the same brand and style as the panel). *Really, it's so easy that if you have
to ask these questions it may be a better idea to pay someone to do it. *It
*can* be dangerous.

@krw:

Looking at the pictures that the OP has taken and posted, he has no
business touching anything in said panel... It appears that each
panel is serving several units in some type of institutional housing
type situation where the individual occupants aren't being billed
by the utility company for separately metered service...

That means it isn't his panel to be working on and he shouldn't
be touching it... The panel since it serves multiple units should
be locked so that only authorized employees of the landlord or
housing authority can access it since one tenant should not be
able to access the means to shut off the power to another
tenant's unit... Feuds start that way and the landlord is the one
left holding the bag because the health department/building
inspector holds the landlord responsible for any disruption to
the required utilities for the unit to be habitable when they aren't
the individual tenant's duty to pay for through an individually
metered service for each unit...

~~ Evan

On May 14, 7:15*pm, Evan wrote:
On May 14, 5:57*pm, dumbstruck wrote:

On May 14, 10:27*am, "RBM" wrote:

**If you can post some pictures, it'll be very easy to determine how it
comes out

These came out pretty fuzzy, but see the double circuit 29/31 with the
fat wires:http://i54.tinypic.com/2jcg1td.jpght...m/b9fyfd.jpght...

I'm guessing it is close tohttp://www.relectric.com/Store/Circuit-Breakers/BAB2050
as a westinghouse "ba" 2 pole 50 amp, but the my switch toggle doesn't
bridge both.
Not sure of the voltage or how to remove (socket wrench?). Thank you

@dumbstruck:

That is clearly *NOT* your electrical panel to be fixing AT ALL...

Inform your landlord that your stove no longer works because
you can not reset it's circuit breaker...

Besides it not being your panel to work on let's address the
other obvious issues he

1. *You have only removed the outer panel trim cover, that
is a commercial grade load center panel and it has an
inner cover plate that secures the breakers and covers the
busbars so people like you won't get hurt when you try to
poke around inside a panel you have no business touching...

2. *You wouldn't have to shut off power to the whole floor
to work on that one panel, the fact that you do not know this
means that you shouldn't be working on that panel even if
you had legal control over it and had authority to effect
any repairs...

Even if you weren't paying for your electricity individually
each power panel requires having a means of disconnect
so it can be worked on without killing the entire building...

3. *Your first inclination to try and solve the problem here
(being an old failed circuit breaker) was to ponder whether
spraying WD-40 (a highly flammable liquid and propellant)
into an electrical panel where ignition of the flammable
substances is a very probable outcome... *Even if the
problem with the dead breaker was as simple as a broken
spring, the breaker is designed so that the failure of any
component would open the circuit so that the lack of
power triggers investigation and replacement of the
failed device, if the circuit stayed closed after something
broke or failed you wouldn't know about it until after it
caught on fire...

4. *How large is your unit/apartment/whatever, that seems
like an awfully large panel with a large number of circuits
in it to be servicing only one unit... *If it is serving more than
one unit, you don't have the authority to repair it on your
own, only the landlord does...

This repair is clearly above you both in the techniques that
are required to complete the work and your level of physical
endurance... *Leave it well enough alone and call your
landlord so that the building maintenance/electrical contractor
can be scheduled to repair it properly...

~~ Evan

TRUE, WD40 IS NOT SAFE TO USE ANYWHERE INSIDE THAT PANEL,
IT'S A SHAME HE POSTED EVERYTHING BUT THE ACTUAL TRIPPED BREAKER.
THIS POST HAS TROLL WRITEN ALL OVER IT.

TGITM

Uhm, if you notice.... most panels, it's actually reasonably
safe to change breakers "hot". I've done enough.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 May 2011 14:26:43 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

It sounds dangerous. I'd call the landlord, and get help.
Some electricians change breakers while the panel is "hot".
But, they have training.

There's no "main" in the panel?

But, is WD a lubricant or water displacer? And is it
approved for use in panels?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"dumbstruck" wrote in message
...

I guess the next step is to find some place selling possibly
obsolete
circuit breaker types and look at the screws. Maybe I will
shoot wd40
into it first, because why would an unused circuit breaker
fail. Maybe
a leaf spring broke? Thanks... want to avoid another
expensive service
visit like the plumber who charged me 5X what was justified
and stole
some repair material from me.

Sea water instead?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...


I guess the next step is to find some place selling
possibly obsolete
circuit breaker types and look at the screws. Maybe I will
shoot wd40
into it first, because why would an unused circuit breaker
fail. Maybe
a leaf spring broke? Thanks... want to avoid another
expensive service
visit like the plumber who charged me 5X what was justified
and stole
some repair material from me.

Maybe it's unused because it doesn't. Do *not* squirt
WD-40, or anything else
into the circuit breaker.

Increase your life insurance limit soon. Name me as a
beneficiary, too.

Change screen name to "struck dead".

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"dumbstruck" wrote in message
...

Well, like I said it only ran a clock - I guess underused
electrical
stuff tends to corrode faster. Darn it about WD - maybe duct
taping
the switch in the on position?

To get a replacement breaker, how to I tell what the voltage
is (240
only or 120/240)? and number of poles? I seem to remember
only 2 fat
wires going in. Also there is a 2 letter code for these
replacement
that I have to figure out. tks again.

On May 14, 9:13*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Increase your life insurance limit soon. Name me as a
beneficiary, too.

Change screen name to "struck dead".

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"dumbstruck" wrote in message

...

Well, like I said it only ran a clock - I guess underused
electrical
stuff tends to corrode faster. Darn it about WD - maybe duct
taping
the switch in the on position?

To get a replacement breaker, how to I tell what the voltage
is (240
only or 120/240)? and number of poles? I seem to remember
only 2 fat
wires going in. Also there is a 2 letter code for these
replacement
that I have to figure out. tks again.

I AM CONVINCED, HE REALLY SHOULDNT BE ANYWHERE NEAR THAT PANEL.
TGITM

OK the problem is essentially solved; thanks all! I just don't get why
such a thing fails from just sitting there for decades, only powering
a clock. I just flipped it once and it went floppy. Well, there was a
neighbor boy that I think used to flip them for mischief...

On May 14, 10:59*am, "
wrote:
Don't be ridiculous. *It's not "corroded". *You can't set it. *Tape isn't
going to do *anything*.

The tape was a joke. Accelerated salt air corrosion of electricals is
common here. On the web I see advice to use a dielectric grease (non
conductive) on connections, although not likely suitable for circuit
breakers. My breaker panel is protected, but normal garaged or even
household electronics can expire fast here, especially when not used.

So you've had the panel off?

Many times now. It has such a warp that it wants to spring off the box
and fall down while I fiddle with clamps. Needs one hand to hold it
up, one hand to force the clamp, and one elevated knee to smoosh the
warp. Got it down now, but it had made me a bit dizzy and I at first
overlooked things you guys were coaching me on.

On May 14, 9:08*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Uhm, if you notice.... most panels, it's actually reasonably
safe to change breakers "hot". I've done enough.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

wrote in message

...
On Sat, 14 May 2011 14:26:43 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"

wrote:
It sounds dangerous. I'd call the landlord, and get help.
Some electricians change breakers while the panel is "hot".
But, they have training.

There's no "main" in the panel?


There usually isn't a *main* breaker in a sub-panel in a
commercial application... Someone who is authorized
to work inside panels in such buildings would have
access to the switchgear room(s) where there would
be a circuit breaker to protect each sub-panel in one
of the switchgear cabinets which would serve as the
disconnect switch for each sub-panel...

And yes, while it *is* possible to work on a panel live
it requires enough experience, proper safety training
and the correct double insulated tools... It is only
justifiable to work on a panel live when there are
actual life safety issues involved in shutting the
power off for a few minutes to perform the work
needed...

~~ Evan

On May 14, 8:46*pm, The Ghost in The Machine
wrote:
On May 14, 7:15*pm, Evan wrote:



On May 14, 5:57*pm, dumbstruck wrote:

On May 14, 10:27*am, "RBM" wrote:

**If you can post some pictures, it'll be very easy to determine how it
comes out

These came out pretty fuzzy, but see the double circuit 29/31 with the
fat wires:http://i54.tinypic.com/2jcg1td.jpght...m/b9fyfd.jpght...

I'm guessing it is close tohttp://www.relectric.com/Store/Circuit-Breakers/BAB2050
as a westinghouse "ba" 2 pole 50 amp, but the my switch toggle doesn't
bridge both.
Not sure of the voltage or how to remove (socket wrench?). Thank you

@dumbstruck:

That is clearly *NOT* your electrical panel to be fixing AT ALL...

Inform your landlord that your stove no longer works because
you can not reset it's circuit breaker...

Besides it not being your panel to work on let's address the
other obvious issues he

1. *You have only removed the outer panel trim cover, that
is a commercial grade load center panel and it has an
inner cover plate that secures the breakers and covers the
busbars so people like you won't get hurt when you try to
poke around inside a panel you have no business touching...

2. *You wouldn't have to shut off power to the whole floor
to work on that one panel, the fact that you do not know this
means that you shouldn't be working on that panel even if
you had legal control over it and had authority to effect
any repairs...

Even if you weren't paying for your electricity individually
each power panel requires having a means of disconnect
so it can be worked on without killing the entire building...

3. *Your first inclination to try and solve the problem here
(being an old failed circuit breaker) was to ponder whether
spraying WD-40 (a highly flammable liquid and propellant)
into an electrical panel where ignition of the flammable
substances is a very probable outcome... *Even if the
problem with the dead breaker was as simple as a broken
spring, the breaker is designed so that the failure of any
component would open the circuit so that the lack of
power triggers investigation and replacement of the
failed device, if the circuit stayed closed after something
broke or failed you wouldn't know about it until after it
caught on fire...

4. *How large is your unit/apartment/whatever, that seems
like an awfully large panel with a large number of circuits
in it to be servicing only one unit... *If it is serving more than
one unit, you don't have the authority to repair it on your
own, only the landlord does...

This repair is clearly above you both in the techniques that
are required to complete the work and your level of physical
endurance... *Leave it well enough alone and call your
landlord so that the building maintenance/electrical contractor
can be scheduled to repair it properly...

~~ Evan

TRUE, WD40 IS NOT SAFE TO USE ANYWHERE INSIDE THAT PANEL,
IT'S A SHAME HE POSTED EVERYTHING BUT THE ACTUAL TRIPPED BREAKER.
THIS POST HAS TROLL WRITEN ALL OVER IT.

TGITM

@TGITM:

I wouldn't say troll, but more likely a bored geezer living in
publicly provided senior housing in some high-rise building...

Most likely in Unit #1501 way up on the 15th floor, as he
described the "long climb up" that someone would have to
endure when the building is shutdown for "maintenance
day" which probably involves switchgear inspection/service
which is unsafe to work on live due to the amperage
involved...

You can see in one of the **** poor pictures where someone
has written with pencil on the inner cover of the panel...

That building definitely has issues if the panels aren't
properly marked and labeled with legends plus the
fact that none of these panels are locked to control
who can access them -- anyone could wander around
randomly flipping breakers off if they wanted to be a
pest...

~~ Evan

On Sat, 14 May 2011 11:11:51 -0700 (PDT), dumbstruck
wrote:

I get no power to a kitchen stove, and I notice it's 50 amp circuit
breaker flops loosely back and forth (in old westinghouse wpa panel).
Does this mean the breaker needs replacing, or can it be coaxed to
work somehow? Or could it be ok and it's not being fed power (but
adjacent breakers work ok)? The stove hasn't drawn power except for
it's clock for a dozen years, so maybe salt air corrosion took effect
on contacts?

The next issue is fixing it... not easily turned off due to being a
multi family unit panel. Building power will be turned off for a
coming maintenance day, but without working elevators no electrician
will want to climb the many stories to work on it. Can I fix it
myself? I don't see any way to detach the metal frame from it.

thanks
My STRONG suspicion is the bus bar the breaker connects to is burned
at the contact. In which case the panel will need to be replaced.

On May 14, 10:46*pm, dumbstruck wrote:
OK the problem is essentially solved; thanks all! I just don't get why
such a thing fails from just sitting there for decades, only powering
a clock. I just flipped it once and it went floppy. Well, there was a
neighbor boy that I think used to flip them for mischief...

On May 14, 10:59*am, "

wrote:
Don't be ridiculous. *It's not "corroded". *You can't set it. *Tape isn't
going to do *anything*.

The tape was a joke. Accelerated salt air corrosion of electricals is
common here. On the web I see advice to use a dielectric grease (non
conductive) on *connections, although not likely suitable for circuit
breakers. My breaker panel is protected, but normal garaged or even
household electronics can expire fast here, especially when not used.

So you've had the panel off?

Many times now. It has such a warp that it wants to spring off the box
and fall down while I fiddle with clamps. Needs one hand to hold it
up, one hand to force the clamp, and one elevated knee to smoosh the
warp. Got it down now, but it had made me a bit dizzy and I at first
overlooked things you guys were coaching me on.


@dumbstruck:

It sounds like you would be surprised at what power surges can
do... Breakers fail all the time for various reasons: overloading
on the circuit protected by the breaker, cycling on/off when being
used as a switch (they aren't intended to be used to switch lights
on and off, that is what switches are for), damage cause by an
overloaded panel cooking the breaker, lightning strikes/power
surges and old age...

The "neighbor boy" and your tinkering are BOTH reasons why
those panels should be locked up with panel locks and have
the trim cover plates attached with security head tamper
resistant fasteners so that one one gets hurt by tampering
in the panel and no one is inconvenienced by a nuisance
power outage caused by a troublemaker...

I have no idea where on the internet you read about
dielectric grease being used in/on electrical connections
but I have *never* heard of it being used in line voltage
applications on/near circuit breakers... I think you were
confused -- dielectric grease is only useful in marine and
automotive/engine applications to waterproof connections
which could get water sprayed on them...

You really shouldn't be taking apart electrical panels
in a building where you are an occupant in a unit you
do not own... It is considered trespassing... You
wouldn't take apart the panel inside the elevator cab,
nor should you, treat all the circuit breaker panels
in the building the same way, they belong to the
landlord/management/housing authority and only
authorized agents/employees of the owner of the
building should be touching such panels...

~~ Evan

On Sat, 14 May 2011 12:57:53 -0700 (PDT), dumbstruck
wrote:

On May 14, 9:33Â*am, "RBM" wrote:

**Depending upon the buildings electrical setup, and equipment, it may or
may not be an easy replacement. If the panel is in your apt, there will be a
main circuit breaker where the electric meters are, that should kill power

I know how to kill power for our floor; there is just a concern how I
will kill grannies in the neighboring units who are on life support
machines or whatever. Nobody pays attentions to notices I may give
beforehand... well that's a side issue about me wanting to do it when
the whole building and thus elevator is shut down. I would have to be
ready with the right tools and hardware.

to your panel. Once the panel is dead, and verified dead, you can open the
panel. It may have a 2 piece cover. It may have clips, clamps or screws to
open it, but definitely something should be visible. Once it's opened,

Holy moley, I had seen a disengaged clamp on one side (thought it was
to lock the door) but now I found little slots to unclamp the other 4
sides. This converts the 20 pound cover into a guillotine blade trying
to shoot straight down and amputate the feet (same thing on the
reclamp which it strongly resists doing).

typical residential Westinghouse circuit breaker is a push on type and will
come out if you pull on the buss end, the end opposite where the wire is
attached. You may also have a bolt on type, which will have a metal tab
screwed to the buss. If so, the screws will be visible

This is a 35 year old big industrial size unit. It looks like breakers
could only come out to the side where the wires attach. I can just
barely see a little quarter inch hex nut hidden there; maybe getting a
socket wrench on that will set it free? Even if unlocked, it looks
almost impossible to get out due to the geometry, and maybe some other
framework has to be removed (big job).

I guess the next step is to find some place selling possibly obsolete
circuit breaker types and look at the screws. Maybe I will shoot wd40
into it first, because why would an unused circuit breaker fail. Maybe
a leaf spring broke? Thanks... want to avoid another expensive service
visit like the plumber who charged me 5X what was justified and stole
some re


DO NOT put wd40 in there. It is flamable, and if there is an arc fault
of any jind in the panel you WILL have a fire.

On May 14, 11:29*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 14 May 2011 11:11:51 -0700 (PDT), dumbstruck



wrote:
I get no power to a kitchen stove, and I notice it's 50 amp circuit
breaker flops loosely back and forth (in old westinghouse wpa panel).
Does this mean the breaker needs replacing, or can it be coaxed to
work somehow? Or could it be ok and it's not being fed power (but
adjacent breakers work ok)? The stove hasn't drawn power except for
it's clock for a dozen years, so maybe salt air corrosion took effect
on contacts?

The next issue is fixing it... not easily turned off due to being a
multi family unit panel. Building power will be turned off for a
coming maintenance day, but without working elevators no electrician
will want to climb the many stories to work on it. Can I fix it
myself? I don't see any way to detach the metal frame from it.

thanks

*My STRONG suspicion is the bus bar the breaker connects to is burned
at the contact. In which case the panel will need to be replaced.

How do you arrive at that suspicion with so little evidence to
support anything other than a busted breaker... There looked
to be *ZERO* evidence of overloading on that branch circuit
as the wiring looked normal and there was no evidence of
scorched connections or melted insulation on the branch
wires for that circuit... The connections to the breaker looked
normal and not distorted or melted... You really do need
an *overload* condition to burn the breaker at the busbar
contact position...

~~ Evan

On May 14, 11:12*pm, Evan wrote:
On May 14, 8:46*pm, The Ghost in The Machine
wrote:





On May 14, 7:15*pm, Evan wrote:

On May 14, 5:57*pm, dumbstruck wrote:

On May 14, 10:27*am, "RBM" wrote:

**If you can post some pictures, it'll be very easy to determine how it
comes out

These came out pretty fuzzy, but see the double circuit 29/31 with the
fat wires:http://i54.tinypic.com/2jcg1td.jpght...m/b9fyfd.jpght...

I'm guessing it is close tohttp://www.relectric.com/Store/Circuit-Breakers/BAB2050
as a westinghouse "ba" 2 pole 50 amp, but the my switch toggle doesn't
bridge both.
Not sure of the voltage or how to remove (socket wrench?). Thank you

@dumbstruck:

That is clearly *NOT* your electrical panel to be fixing AT ALL...

Inform your landlord that your stove no longer works because
you can not reset it's circuit breaker...

Besides it not being your panel to work on let's address the
other obvious issues he

1. *You have only removed the outer panel trim cover, that
is a commercial grade load center panel and it has an
inner cover plate that secures the breakers and covers the
busbars so people like you won't get hurt when you try to
poke around inside a panel you have no business touching...

2. *You wouldn't have to shut off power to the whole floor
to work on that one panel, the fact that you do not know this
means that you shouldn't be working on that panel even if
you had legal control over it and had authority to effect
any repairs...

Even if you weren't paying for your electricity individually
each power panel requires having a means of disconnect
so it can be worked on without killing the entire building...

3. *Your first inclination to try and solve the problem here
(being an old failed circuit breaker) was to ponder whether
spraying WD-40 (a highly flammable liquid and propellant)
into an electrical panel where ignition of the flammable
substances is a very probable outcome... *Even if the
problem with the dead breaker was as simple as a broken
spring, the breaker is designed so that the failure of any
component would open the circuit so that the lack of
power triggers investigation and replacement of the
failed device, if the circuit stayed closed after something
broke or failed you wouldn't know about it until after it
caught on fire...

4. *How large is your unit/apartment/whatever, that seems
like an awfully large panel with a large number of circuits
in it to be servicing only one unit... *If it is serving more than
one unit, you don't have the authority to repair it on your
own, only the landlord does...

This repair is clearly above you both in the techniques that
are required to complete the work and your level of physical
endurance... *Leave it well enough alone and call your
landlord so that the building maintenance/electrical contractor
can be scheduled to repair it properly...

~~ Evan

TRUE, WD40 IS NOT SAFE TO USE ANYWHERE INSIDE THAT PANEL,
IT'S A SHAME HE POSTED EVERYTHING BUT THE ACTUAL TRIPPED BREAKER.
THIS POST HAS TROLL WRITEN ALL OVER IT.

TGITM

@TGITM:

I wouldn't say troll, but more likely a bored geezer living in
publicly provided senior housing in some high-rise building...

Most likely in Unit #1501 way up on the 15th floor, as he
described the "long climb up" that someone would have to
endure when the building is shutdown for "maintenance
day" which probably involves switchgear inspection/service
which is unsafe to work on live due to the amperage
involved...

You can see in one of the **** poor pictures where someone
has written with pencil on the inner cover of the panel...

That building definitely has issues if the panels aren't
properly marked and labeled with legends plus the
fact that none of these panels are locked to control
who can access them -- anyone could wander around
randomly flipping breakers off if they wanted to be a
pest...

~~ Evan

WELL HE SEEMS TO HAVE SOLVED THE PROBLEM, BUT BREAKERS DONT GO FLOPPY
LOOSE UNLESS THEY TRIP....NO KID FLIPPED IT OFF....HAD HE READ MORE
CAREFULLY HE WOULD'VE RESOLVED IT SOONER....IN THOSE TYPE OF
FACILITIES THE UTILITY ROOM WHICH CONTAINS THE METER BANK AND MAIN CUT
OFF PANELS IS USUALLY LOCKED AND INACCESSIBLE TO UNAUTHORIZED
PERSONNEL
HE MUST BE CONNECTED ...AND BORED .

TGITM

With power off, I've cleaned these. Wire brush, emeery
cloth.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...

My STRONG suspicion is the bus bar the breaker connects to
is burned
at the contact. In which case the panel will need to be
replaced.

On Sat, 14 May 2011 20:41:15 -0700 (PDT), Evan
wrote:

On May 14, 11:29Â*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 14 May 2011 11:11:51 -0700 (PDT), dumbstruck



wrote:
I get no power to a kitchen stove, and I notice it's 50 amp circuit
breaker flops loosely back and forth (in old westinghouse wpa panel).
Does this mean the breaker needs replacing, or can it be coaxed to
work somehow? Or could it be ok and it's not being fed power (but
adjacent breakers work ok)? The stove hasn't drawn power except for
it's clock for a dozen years, so maybe salt air corrosion took effect
on contacts?

The next issue is fixing it... not easily turned off due to being a
multi family unit panel. Building power will be turned off for a
coming maintenance day, but without working elevators no electrician
will want to climb the many stories to work on it. Can I fix it
myself? I don't see any way to detach the metal frame from it.

thanks

Â*My STRONG suspicion is the bus bar the breaker connects to is burned
at the contact. In which case the panel will need to be replaced.

How do you arrive at that suspicion with so little evidence to
support anything other than a busted breaker... There looked
to be *ZERO* evidence of overloading on that branch circuit
as the wiring looked normal and there was no evidence of
scorched connections or melted insulation on the branch
wires for that circuit... The connections to the breaker looked
normal and not distorted or melted... You really do need
an *overload* condition to burn the breaker at the busbar
contact position...

~~ Evan
The OP state the breaker appered to be loose in the panel. Thebreaker
has apparently not been supplying power to the stove for some time,
but at one point in the past it was. The bus bar where the breaker
connects was a weak point in some of those (early) breaker panels,
burnrd or eroded buss bars were not an uncommon occurrene. They would
not necessarily show any overheating where the wires connect to the
breaker, or anywhere else on the wiring, and no "overload" would be
required for the problem to occur.
He also mentions "salt air corrosion" - where IS this panel located
(both geographically and in the building)?

On Sun, 15 May 2011 08:33:58 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

With power off, I've cleaned these. Wire brush, emeery
cloth.
Sometimes they can be cleaned up well enough to work - particularly
for a 15 amp circuit. For a 50 amp, GENERALLY if they are bad enough
to cause a problem, the problem is pretty much permanent.

MIGHT be able to clean it up enough to make it work for a few more
years, might not - and it's even possible I'm wrong and there is no
damage to the buss bar. I doubt it, but I've been wrong before -
particualrly on things I have not been able to look at close up and
actually "feel".

On May 15, 1:51*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 14 May 2011 20:41:15 -0700 (PDT), Evan



wrote:
On May 14, 11:29*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 14 May 2011 11:11:51 -0700 (PDT), dumbstruck

wrote:
I get no power to a kitchen stove, and I notice it's 50 amp circuit
breaker flops loosely back and forth (in old westinghouse wpa panel).
Does this mean the breaker needs replacing, or can it be coaxed to
work somehow? Or could it be ok and it's not being fed power (but
adjacent breakers work ok)? The stove hasn't drawn power except for
it's clock for a dozen years, so maybe salt air corrosion took effect
on contacts?

The next issue is fixing it... not easily turned off due to being a
multi family unit panel. Building power will be turned off for a
coming maintenance day, but without working elevators no electrician
will want to climb the many stories to work on it. Can I fix it
myself? I don't see any way to detach the metal frame from it.

thanks

*My STRONG suspicion is the bus bar the breaker connects to is burned
at the contact. In which case the panel will need to be replaced.

How do you arrive at that suspicion with so little evidence to
support anything other than a busted breaker... *There looked
to be *ZERO* evidence of overloading on that branch circuit
as the wiring looked normal and there was no evidence of
scorched connections or melted insulation on the branch
wires for that circuit... *The connections to the breaker looked
normal and not distorted or melted... *You really do need
an *overload* condition to burn the breaker at the busbar
contact position...

~~ Evan

The OP state the breaker appered to be loose in the panel. Thebreaker
has apparently not been supplying power to the stove for some time,
but at one point in the past it was. The bus bar where the breaker
connects was a weak point in some of those (early) breaker panels,
burnrd or eroded buss bars were not an uncommon occurrene. They would
not necessarily show any overheating where the wires connect to the
breaker, or anywhere else on the wiring, and no "overload" would be
required for the problem to occur.
He also mentions "salt air corrosion" - where IS this panel located
(both geographically and in the building)?


Umm... Dude, the OP is clearly not a technical person who knows
what they are doing... The switch handle can be "loose and floppy"
inside the panel while the breaker housing is properly affixed in
place...

This is not an "early panel" it is a 60's or 70's vintage Westinghouse
Commercial panel... By the looks of it with bolt on breakers but I
have been surprised by the outward appearance of panels before
so without seeing that inner cover plate removed I won't even offer
any "opinion" on that issue...

The OP is clueless as far as "salt air corrosion" as there was
again *ZERO* evidence of that happening at all and ANY exposed
live connections would have a build up on them if there was
moist salty air present...

The OP borders on troll-ish-ness and was clearly trespassing
inside the panel which is not owned by him and for which he
does not pay for individually metered electric service from
(by his own admission and the number of circuits inside of it)
so he has no legitimate business opening it up and tinkering
with it at all...

So confine your guesses to plausible ones found in actual
reality... An overload or short condition which was enough
to burn or scorch the busbar would definitely leave a
visible trace of melty wire insulation behind on the circuit
conductors...

~~ Evan

On May 15, 2:00*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 15 May 2011 08:33:58 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"

wrote:
With power off, I've cleaned these. Wire brush, emeery
cloth.

*Sometimes they can be cleaned up well enough to work - particularly
for a 15 amp circuit. For a 50 amp, GENERALLY if they are bad enough
to cause a problem, the problem is pretty much permanent.

MIGHT be able to clean it up enough to make it work for a few more
years, might not - and it's even possible I'm wrong and there is no
damage to the buss bar. I doubt it, but I've been wrong before -
particualrly on things I have not been able to look at close up and
actually "feel".


Yeah, you have to look at the pictures the usenet idiots post
and try to translate their useless non-tradesmen babble into
useful information, in this case the OP said:

-- "breaker flops loosely back and forth"

translation: the switch handle on the breaker flops loosely
back and forth

-- "not easily turned off due to being a multi family unit panel"

translation: I am not aware that I shouldn't be tampering
with equipment that is not owned by me

-- "It looks like breakers could only come out to the side where
the wires attach. I can just barely see a little quarter inch hex
nut hidden there; maybe getting a socket wrench on that will
set it free?"

translation: I haven't the first clue about how to repair things
inside of an electrical panel, but rather than call the people
with the proper authority to effect qualified and safe repairs
i will continue to google the issue and ask for assistance on
Usenet newsgroups

-- "Maybe I will shoot wd40 into it first, because why would
an unused circuit breaker fail"

translation: Further defining just how unqualified I am to
even think of attempting this repair, I will suggest doing
something totally unsafe which could result in an electrical
fire

-- "Thanks... want to avoid another expensive service visit
like the plumber who charged me 5X what was justified and stole
some repair material from me."

translation: I have a past history of having unauthorized repairs
done to the unit where i am living -- the last ******* charged
me more than I thought it should cost (because it has been
so long since I owned my own house to know what these things
really cost) and took away some of my toys... Waaaaa

-- "I guess underused electrical stuff tends to corrode faster.
Darn it about WD - maybe duct taping the switch in the on
position?"

translation: I thought WD-40 and duct tape could fix anything
you have just shattered my fragile view of the world...

-- "I just don't get why such a thing fails from just sitting there
for decades, only powering a clock. I just flipped it once and
it went floppy."

translation: I didn't know well enough to leave it alone and
when I went into the panel to try and solve a problem, *I*
actually *broke* it myself by fiddling with it

Ah, the truth finally comes to light... The OP should have
clearly reported the problem to the landlord *before* touching
anything and let the landlord's agents/employees kill the
thing, they would have effected the needed repairs safely...

It comes to question why on earth would someone not use
their stove for "decades" and suddenly need it now ?
The clock must have stopped working is my guess...

~~ Evan

The one I cleaned was a 100 amp breaker. Worked fine.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
news On Sun, 15 May 2011 08:33:58 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

With power off, I've cleaned these. Wire brush, emeery
cloth.

Sometimes they can be cleaned up well enough to work -
particularly
for a 15 amp circuit. For a 50 amp, GENERALLY if they are
bad enough
to cause a problem, the problem is pretty much permanent.

MIGHT be able to clean it up enough to make it work for a
few more
years, might not - and it's even possible I'm wrong and
there is no
damage to the buss bar. I doubt it, but I've been wrong
before -
particualrly on things I have not been able to look at close
up and
actually "feel".

On May 15, 2:36*pm, Evan wrote:
On May 15, 1:51*pm, wrote:





On Sat, 14 May 2011 20:41:15 -0700 (PDT), Evan

wrote:
On May 14, 11:29*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 14 May 2011 11:11:51 -0700 (PDT), dumbstruck

wrote:
I get no power to a kitchen stove, and I notice it's 50 amp circuit
breaker flops loosely back and forth (in old westinghouse wpa panel).
Does this mean the breaker needs replacing, or can it be coaxed to
work somehow? Or could it be ok and it's not being fed power (but
adjacent breakers work ok)? The stove hasn't drawn power except for
it's clock for a dozen years, so maybe salt air corrosion took effect
on contacts?

The next issue is fixing it... not easily turned off due to being a
multi family unit panel. Building power will be turned off for a
coming maintenance day, but without working elevators no electrician
will want to climb the many stories to work on it. Can I fix it
myself? I don't see any way to detach the metal frame from it.

thanks

*My STRONG suspicion is the bus bar the breaker connects to is burned
at the contact. In which case the panel will need to be replaced.

How do you arrive at that suspicion with so little evidence to
support anything other than a busted breaker... *There looked
to be *ZERO* evidence of overloading on that branch circuit
as the wiring looked normal and there was no evidence of
scorched connections or melted insulation on the branch
wires for that circuit... *The connections to the breaker looked
normal and not distorted or melted... *You really do need
an *overload* condition to burn the breaker at the busbar
contact position...

~~ Evan

The OP state the breaker appered to be loose in the panel. Thebreaker
has apparently not been supplying power to the stove for some time,
but at one point in the past it was. The bus bar where the breaker
connects was a weak point in some of those (early) breaker panels,
burnrd or eroded buss bars were not an uncommon occurrene. They would
not necessarily show any overheating where the wires connect to the
breaker, or anywhere else on the wiring, and no "overload" would be
required for the problem to occur.
He also mentions "salt air corrosion" - where IS this panel located
(both geographically and in the building)?

Umm... *Dude, the OP is clearly not a technical person who knows
what they are doing... *The switch handle can be "loose and floppy"
inside the panel while the breaker housing is properly affixed in
place...

This is not an "early panel" it is a 60's or 70's vintage Westinghouse
Commercial panel... *By the looks of it with bolt on breakers but I
have been surprised by the outward appearance of panels before
so without seeing that inner cover plate removed I won't even offer
any "opinion" on that issue...

The OP is clueless as far as "salt air corrosion" as there was
again *ZERO* evidence of that happening at all and ANY exposed
live connections would have a build up on them if there was
moist salty air present...

The OP borders on troll-ish-ness and was clearly trespassing
inside the panel which is not owned by him and for which he
does not pay for individually metered electric service from
(by his own admission and the number of circuits inside of it)
so he has no legitimate business opening it up and tinkering
with it at all...

So confine your guesses to plausible ones found in actual
reality... *An overload or short condition which was enough
to burn or scorch the busbar would definitely leave a
visible trace of melty wire insulation behind on the circuit
conductors...

~~ Evan

THIS ENTIRE THREAD IS MOOT, DISSOLUTE, DONE.
THE OP FOUND A LOOSE FLOPPY BREAKER, HE PUSHED IT BACK TO THE RESET
POSITION AND SET IT BACK ON...I CANT BELIEVE SO MUCH TIME WAS WASTED
ON THIS.
IT'S RATHER SIMPLE TO RESET A BREAKER...IT IS OK IF YOU DO NOT KNOW
THE SIMPLE LOGIC OF CIRCUIT BREAKER DESIGN AND FUNCTIONS, ITS NOT A
BIG TECHNICAL ACCOMPLISHMENT.
ALL IT NEEDED WAS RESETTING...HOW CAN ANYONE MISS THAT?
IF ITS BUSTED & WON'T RESET YOU CHANGE IT, THAT'S THAT.
TGITM

On Sun, 15 May 2011 11:36:49 -0700 (PDT), Evan
wrote:

On May 15, 1:51Â*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 14 May 2011 20:41:15 -0700 (PDT), Evan



wrote:
On May 14, 11:29Â*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 14 May 2011 11:11:51 -0700 (PDT), dumbstruck

wrote:
I get no power to a kitchen stove, and I notice it's 50 amp circuit
breaker flops loosely back and forth (in old westinghouse wpa panel).
Does this mean the breaker needs replacing, or can it be coaxed to
work somehow? Or could it be ok and it's not being fed power (but
adjacent breakers work ok)? The stove hasn't drawn power except for
it's clock for a dozen years, so maybe salt air corrosion took effect
on contacts?

The next issue is fixing it... not easily turned off due to being a
multi family unit panel. Building power will be turned off for a
coming maintenance day, but without working elevators no electrician
will want to climb the many stories to work on it. Can I fix it
myself? I don't see any way to detach the metal frame from it.

thanks

Â*My STRONG suspicion is the bus bar the breaker connects to is burned
at the contact. In which case the panel will need to be replaced.

How do you arrive at that suspicion with so little evidence to
support anything other than a busted breaker... Â*There looked
to be *ZERO* evidence of overloading on that branch circuit
as the wiring looked normal and there was no evidence of
scorched connections or melted insulation on the branch
wires for that circuit... Â*The connections to the breaker looked
normal and not distorted or melted... Â*You really do need
an *overload* condition to burn the breaker at the busbar
contact position...

~~ Evan

The OP state the breaker appered to be loose in the panel. Thebreaker
has apparently not been supplying power to the stove for some time,
but at one point in the past it was. The bus bar where the breaker
connects was a weak point in some of those (early) breaker panels,
burnrd or eroded buss bars were not an uncommon occurrene. They would
not necessarily show any overheating where the wires connect to the
breaker, or anywhere else on the wiring, and no "overload" would be
required for the problem to occur.
He also mentions "salt air corrosion" - where IS this panel located
(both geographically and in the building)?


Umm... Dude, the OP is clearly not a technical person who knows
what they are doing... The switch handle can be "loose and floppy"
inside the panel while the breaker housing is properly affixed in
place...

This is not an "early panel" it is a 60's or 70's vintage Westinghouse
Commercial panel... By the looks of it with bolt on breakers but I
have been surprised by the outward appearance of panels before
so without seeing that inner cover plate removed I won't even offer
any "opinion" on that issue...

The OP is clueless as far as "salt air corrosion" as there was
again *ZERO* evidence of that happening at all and ANY exposed
live connections would have a build up on them if there was
moist salty air present...

The OP borders on troll-ish-ness and was clearly trespassing
inside the panel which is not owned by him and for which he
does not pay for individually metered electric service from
(by his own admission and the number of circuits inside of it)
so he has no legitimate business opening it up and tinkering
with it at all...

So confine your guesses to plausible ones found in actual
reality... An overload or short condition which was enough
to burn or scorch the busbar would definitely leave a
visible trace of melty wire insulation behind on the circuit
conductors...

~~ Evan
Well, I replaced a '60s industrial panel at the car dealeship I was
service manager at for 10 years because the breakers for the lot
lighting were tripping randomly and/or not turning on, and when I
pulled the breakers to check them, the bus bars were badly burned, to
the point the panel was not repairable or useable as it was. There was
NO sign of overheating or overloading on the wires. I replaced the
panel and ALL the breakers with a new Square D panel.

On May 15, 8:06*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 15 May 2011 11:36:49 -0700 (PDT), Evan



wrote:
On May 15, 1:51*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 14 May 2011 20:41:15 -0700 (PDT), Evan

wrote:
On May 14, 11:29*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 14 May 2011 11:11:51 -0700 (PDT), dumbstruck

wrote:
I get no power to a kitchen stove, and I notice it's 50 amp circuit
breaker flops loosely back and forth (in old westinghouse wpa panel).
Does this mean the breaker needs replacing, or can it be coaxed to
work somehow? Or could it be ok and it's not being fed power (but
adjacent breakers work ok)? The stove hasn't drawn power except for
it's clock for a dozen years, so maybe salt air corrosion took effect
on contacts?

The next issue is fixing it... not easily turned off due to being a
multi family unit panel. Building power will be turned off for a
coming maintenance day, but without working elevators no electrician
will want to climb the many stories to work on it. Can I fix it
myself? I don't see any way to detach the metal frame from it.

thanks

*My STRONG suspicion is the bus bar the breaker connects to is burned
at the contact. In which case the panel will need to be replaced.

How do you arrive at that suspicion with so little evidence to
support anything other than a busted breaker... *There looked
to be *ZERO* evidence of overloading on that branch circuit
as the wiring looked normal and there was no evidence of
scorched connections or melted insulation on the branch
wires for that circuit... *The connections to the breaker looked
normal and not distorted or melted... *You really do need
an *overload* condition to burn the breaker at the busbar
contact position...

~~ Evan

The OP state the breaker appered to be loose in the panel. Thebreaker
has apparently not been supplying power to the stove for some time,
but at one point in the past it was. The bus bar where the breaker
connects was a weak point in some of those (early) breaker panels,
burnrd or eroded buss bars were not an uncommon occurrene. They would
not necessarily show any overheating where the wires connect to the
breaker, or anywhere else on the wiring, and no "overload" would be
required for the problem to occur.
He also mentions "salt air corrosion" - where IS this panel located
(both geographically and in the building)?

Umm... *Dude, the OP is clearly not a technical person who knows
what they are doing... *The switch handle can be "loose and floppy"
inside the panel while the breaker housing is properly affixed in
place...

This is not an "early panel" it is a 60's or 70's vintage Westinghouse
Commercial panel... *By the looks of it with bolt on breakers but I
have been surprised by the outward appearance of panels before
so without seeing that inner cover plate removed I won't even offer
any "opinion" on that issue...

The OP is clueless as far as "salt air corrosion" as there was
again *ZERO* evidence of that happening at all and ANY exposed
live connections would have a build up on them if there was
moist salty air present...

The OP borders on troll-ish-ness and was clearly trespassing
inside the panel which is not owned by him and for which he
does not pay for individually metered electric service from
(by his own admission and the number of circuits inside of it)
so he has no legitimate business opening it up and tinkering
with it at all...

So confine your guesses to plausible ones found in actual
reality... *An overload or short condition which was enough
to burn or scorch the busbar would definitely leave a
visible trace of melty wire insulation behind on the circuit
conductors...

~~ Evan

Well, I replaced a '60s industrial panel at the car dealeship I was
service manager at for 10 years because the breakers for the lot
lighting were tripping randomly and/or not turning on, and when I
pulled the breakers to check them, the bus bars were badly burned, to
the point the panel was not repairable or useable as it was. There was
NO sign of overheating or overloading on the wires. I replaced the
panel and ALL the breakers with a new Square D panel.


I have seen that happen too, in a panel for site lighting -- the only
damage to the panel was with the busbar, but out in the light
poles there were all sorts of melted connections -- water got into
several of the poles and the oversized wire size for the length
of the run everything was fine in the panel except the busbar...

But with arced and fried busbar in a panel you *WILL* find
some damage somewhere in the wiring fed from the destroyed
slot in the panel...

Did you have some type of switch/contactor/time clock controlling
those lights or where you using the circuit breakers as switches
to control the lighting ?

~~ Evan

On May 16, 12:18*am, Evan wrote:
On May 15, 8:06*pm, wrote:





On Sun, 15 May 2011 11:36:49 -0700 (PDT), Evan

wrote:
On May 15, 1:51*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 14 May 2011 20:41:15 -0700 (PDT), Evan

wrote:
On May 14, 11:29*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 14 May 2011 11:11:51 -0700 (PDT), dumbstruck

wrote:
I get no power to a kitchen stove, and I notice it's 50 amp circuit
breaker flops loosely back and forth (in old westinghouse wpa panel).
Does this mean the breaker needs replacing, or can it be coaxed to
work somehow? Or could it be ok and it's not being fed power (but
adjacent breakers work ok)? The stove hasn't drawn power except for
it's clock for a dozen years, so maybe salt air corrosion took effect
on contacts?

The next issue is fixing it... not easily turned off due to being a
multi family unit panel. Building power will be turned off for a
coming maintenance day, but without working elevators no electrician
will want to climb the many stories to work on it. Can I fix it
myself? I don't see any way to detach the metal frame from it.

thanks

*My STRONG suspicion is the bus bar the breaker connects to is burned
at the contact. In which case the panel will need to be replaced.

How do you arrive at that suspicion with so little evidence to
support anything other than a busted breaker... *There looked
to be *ZERO* evidence of overloading on that branch circuit
as the wiring looked normal and there was no evidence of
scorched connections or melted insulation on the branch
wires for that circuit... *The connections to the breaker looked
normal and not distorted or melted... *You really do need
an *overload* condition to burn the breaker at the busbar
contact position...

~~ Evan

The OP state the breaker appered to be loose in the panel. Thebreaker
has apparently not been supplying power to the stove for some time,
but at one point in the past it was. The bus bar where the breaker
connects was a weak point in some of those (early) breaker panels,
burnrd or eroded buss bars were not an uncommon occurrene. They would
not necessarily show any overheating where the wires connect to the
breaker, or anywhere else on the wiring, and no "overload" would be
required for the problem to occur.
He also mentions "salt air corrosion" - where IS this panel located
(both geographically and in the building)?

Umm... *Dude, the OP is clearly not a technical person who knows
what they are doing... *The switch handle can be "loose and floppy"
inside the panel while the breaker housing is properly affixed in
place...

This is not an "early panel" it is a 60's or 70's vintage Westinghouse
Commercial panel... *By the looks of it with bolt on breakers but I
have been surprised by the outward appearance of panels before
so without seeing that inner cover plate removed I won't even offer
any "opinion" on that issue...

The OP is clueless as far as "salt air corrosion" as there was
again *ZERO* evidence of that happening at all and ANY exposed
live connections would have a build up on them if there was
moist salty air present...

The OP borders on troll-ish-ness and was clearly trespassing
inside the panel which is not owned by him and for which he
does not pay for individually metered electric service from
(by his own admission and the number of circuits inside of it)
so he has no legitimate business opening it up and tinkering
with it at all...

So confine your guesses to plausible ones found in actual
reality... *An overload or short condition which was enough
to burn or scorch the busbar would definitely leave a
visible trace of melty wire insulation behind on the circuit
conductors...

~~ Evan

Well, I replaced a '60s industrial panel at the car dealeship I was
service manager at for 10 years because the breakers for the lot
lighting were tripping randomly and/or not turning on, and when I
pulled the breakers to check them, the bus bars were badly burned, to
the point the panel was not repairable or useable as it was. There was
NO sign of overheating or overloading on the wires. I replaced the
panel and ALL the breakers with a new Square D panel.

I have seen that happen too, in a panel for site lighting -- the only
damage to the panel was with the busbar, but out in the light
poles there were all sorts of melted connections -- water got into
several of the poles and the oversized wire size for the length
of the run everything was fine in the panel except the busbar...

But with arced and fried busbar in a panel you *WILL* find
some damage somewhere in the wiring fed from the destroyed
slot in the panel...

Did you have some type of switch/contactor/time clock controlling
those lights or where you using the circuit breakers as switches
to control the lighting ?

~~ Evan

NO SEEMS HE HAS SEVERAL OUTLET STRIPS, EXTENSIONS AND SPLITTER
DOOHICKEYS CONNECTED IN ONE OR TWO OUTLET IN THE SAME CIRCUIT.
THEN HE WONDERS HOW IT TRIPPED...WHAT NONSENSE.
THEY SHOULD REVOKE HIS TROLL HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA.
BOOWAHAHAHAHA !
TGITM