I realize I need an electrician - but may I get advice first?

Two electrical phenomena:
1. Once every few months, I turn on a light and the bulb just blows out
(like a candle). It goes on and then poof. You can hear it blow the
filament. Obviously there is a voltage spike of some sort.

2. Every night, when I turn on the lights to two different circuits in
the house, all the bulbs on that circuit are dim - like about 1/4th the
normal brightness - and then within a few minutes, they all get up to
brightness.

They are all incandescent bulbs and there is no dimmer on the circuit
(that I know of). It's just a switch.

I realize both these things are weird and that an electrician needs to
look at it - but is this normal stuff for an electrician to debug?

Have you ever seen these weird happenings? Why would they happen?

On 3/21/2011 11:24 PM, Harold Lathom wrote:
I realize I need an electrician - but may I get advice first?

Two electrical phenomena:
1. Once every few months, I turn on a light and the bulb just blows out
(like a candle). It goes on and then poof. You can hear it blow the
filament. Obviously there is a voltage spike of some sort.

2. Every night, when I turn on the lights to two different circuits in
the house, all the bulbs on that circuit are dim - like about 1/4th the
normal brightness - and then within a few minutes, they all get up to
brightness.

They are all incandescent bulbs and there is no dimmer on the circuit
(that I know of). It's just a switch.

I realize both these things are weird and that an electrician needs to
look at it - but is this normal stuff for an electrician to debug?

Have you ever seen these weird happenings? Why would they happen?

Number 1., the electrician will laugh at. That is how bulbs usually
blow. Thermal cycling, a thin spot in filament, and at some point the
stress is just too much. The thin spot has higher resistance, gets hot,
and melts, sometimes with fireworks, but usually just quietly breaks. No
voltage spike needed.

Number 2. sounds like a bad switch or loose connection.

--
aem sends...

Harold Lathom wrote:
I realize I need an electrician - but may I get advice first?

Two electrical phenomena:
1. Once every few months, I turn on a light and the bulb just blows
out (like a candle). It goes on and then poof. You can hear it blow
the filament. Obviously there is a voltage spike of some sort.

An incandescent filament has a resistance which varies on it's temperature.
When you turn on a lightbulb, the filament is cold, and has very little
resistance to current. As such, when you first turn it on, it passes a lot
of current.

As the filament ages, some areas on the filament become thin, and, like a
fuse, will disintegrate with too much current, which you find when the
filament is cold.

Jon

"Harold Lathom" wrote in message
...
I realize I need an electrician - but may I get advice first?

Two electrical phenomena:
1. Once every few months, I turn on a light and the bulb just blows out
(like a candle). It goes on and then poof. You can hear it blow the
filament. Obviously there is a voltage spike of some sort.

2. Every night, when I turn on the lights to two different circuits in
the house, all the bulbs on that circuit are dim - like about 1/4th the
normal brightness - and then within a few minutes, they all get up to
brightness.

They are all incandescent bulbs and there is no dimmer on the circuit
(that I know of). It's just a switch.

I realize both these things are weird and that an electrician needs to
look at it - but is this normal stuff for an electrician to debug?

Have you ever seen these weird happenings? Why would they happen?


** I agree with Jw, it is a classic loose neutral condition. If you are not
electrically savvy get an electrician out. This is an annoying situation
when it affects lights, but it can be very damaging if it affects motor
loads

Pretty much what I was about to type in. Sounds like a bad
neutral, and should be repaired as soon as possible. Could
be in the panel box, or could be a problem with the
electrical service.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...


Classic example of a loose neutral connection.
One side of the line is getting low voltage (dim lights)
The other side is getting higher than normal voltage. I bet
the
breakers for those two circuits are either right next ot
each other or
opposite each other in the panel (not always, but often).
The low
voltage wont hurt lights, but it can harm motors and
electronics. The
high voltage is on the opposite breaker and is very
dangerous for
electronics, motors, and can burn out bulbs in seconds.

I highly suggest calling an electrician ASAP and not using
electronics
as much as possible, and especially try to avoid heavy loads
such as
electric heaters, until this is fixed. Losing bulbs is a
minor cost,
but it could destroy computer, tv, microwave, fridge, etc.
At least
shut off the breakers to the rooms affected. If you have
any electric
skills, you might remove the panel on your breaker box and
look for
burnt connections, and tighten all the screws on all white
wires (IF
YOU CAN DO THIS SAFELY). Either way, dont delay getting
this fixed
ASAP. It's dangerous. Some circuits may get 220volts and
do serious
damage and even possibly start a fire.

I've seen this several times. I know someone who lost
almost all
appliances, christmas tree lights fried, and over half the
bulbs in
the house burned out.

I had it happen in my own garage when the neutral wire came
loose on
the service entrance to the garage due to high winds. I
lost 6 CFL
bulbs (one started burning but went out quickly on it's
own), some
outdoor flood lights and the sensors, several power tools
that were I
turned on before I know of this problem (and what alerted me
of the
problem), a battery charger that was plugged in, the garage
heater
blower motor and the garage clock radio that was plugged in.
All
because of one corroded loose neutral at the entrance head.
(The
garage is on a separate pole since it's far from the house)

One last comment, youy could measure the voltage on both the
too
bright and the dim bulbs with a multimeter. If it's only
lights,
screw in one of those old adaptors that turn a light
fixtuure into an
outlet. I always keep one of those in my electrical tools
for that
purpose.

On Mar 22, 6:54*am, "RBM" wrote:
"Harold Lathom" wrote in message

...





I realize I need an electrician - but may I get advice first?

Two electrical phenomena:
1. Once every few months, I turn on a light and the bulb just blows out
(like a candle). It goes on and then poof. You can hear it blow the
filament. Obviously there is a voltage spike of some sort.

2. Every night, when I turn on the lights to two different circuits in
the house, all the bulbs on that circuit are dim - like about 1/4th the
normal brightness - and then within a few minutes, they all get up to
brightness.

They are all incandescent bulbs and there is no dimmer on the circuit
(that I know of). It's just a switch.

I realize both these things are weird and that an electrician needs to
look at it - but is this normal stuff for an electrician to debug?

Have you ever seen these weird happenings? Why would they happen?

** I agree with Jw, it is a classic loose neutral condition. If you are not
electrically savvy get an electrician out. This is an annoying situation
when it affects lights, but it can be very damaging if it affects motor
loads- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Concur. Loose neutral. If you are comfortable working with high
power pull the breaker panel cover and check the tightness of the set
screws for the mains coming into the panel from the meter. In
particular the bare wire. Use a plastic handled screwdriver.
Otherwise call an electrician asap.

Must be a pretty small panel, to have slotted screws
for the main power feed. Most of the main power
feeds I've seen, you needed a big allen wrench to
tighten them. There may be some way to do the
tightening "hot". Electricians gloves, or something
like that. But, I don't want to be the one to find
out. I was talking to an electrical department guy
at Home Depot last night. He says the mains have
to be cranked down extremely tight, aluminum
tends to expand and contract a lot.

Might even be a problem in the power company's
wiring.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"jamesgangnc"
wrote in message
...

Concur. Loose neutral. If you are comfortable working with
high
power pull the breaker panel cover and check the tightness
of the set
screws for the mains coming into the panel from the meter.
In
particular the bare wire. Use a plastic handled
screwdriver.
Otherwise call an electrician asap.

On Mar 22, 8:38*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Must be a pretty small panel, to have slotted screws
for the main power feed. Most of the main power
feeds I've seen, you needed a big allen wrench to
tighten them. There may be some way to do the
tightening "hot". Electricians gloves, or something
like that. But, I don't want to be the one to find
out. I was talking to an electrical department guy
at Home Depot last night. He says the mains have
to be cranked down extremely tight, aluminum
tends to expand and contract a lot.

Might even be a problem in the power company's
wiring.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"jamesgangnc"
wrote in ...

Concur. *Loose neutral. *If you are comfortable working with
high
power pull the breaker panel cover and check the tightness
of the set
screws for the mains coming into the panel from the meter.
In
particular the bare wire. *Use a plastic handled
screwdriver.
Otherwise call an electrician asap.

Yes, sometimes they are allen. You can use a platsic handled tool.
That's easy to find for slotted set screws. Harder for allen. You
can get T allens that have plastic on the grip end.

On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 00:08:32 -0600, jw wrote:
One last comment, youy could measure the voltage on both the too bright
and the dim bulbs with a multimeter. If it's only lights, screw in one
of those old adaptors that turn a light fixtuure into an outlet. I
always keep one of those in my electrical tools for that purpose.

I will do that. I don't have handy the screw-in socket but I know what
you mean and will pick one up at the hardware store. I have a Fluke DMM
so that should be accurate enough once I get the socket setup.
The lights are in the ceiling (which is tall) so it's a little cumbersome
but I can wing it.

Thanks for the idea!

On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 06:54:16 -0400, RBM wrote:
** I agree with Jw, it is a classic loose neutral condition. If you are
not electrically savvy get an electrician out.

I don't doubt the conclusion but I have one question.

Why would the lights, which at first are 1/4 brightness, 'warm up' to be
normal brightness?

Or do I just get used to the dimness?

I havn't measured the size, but they do look large.
7/16 or 1/2 inch. I doubt it's easy to find plastic
handle 1/2 inch allen heads.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"jamesgangnc"
wrote in message
...

Yes, sometimes they are allen. You can use a
platsic handled tool. That's easy to find for
slotted set screws. Harder for allen. You can
get T allens that have plastic on the grip end.

Twist in a plug / bulb socket with the two
electrical sockets on the side. Plug in a 9
foot extension cord, and then stand on the
ground while using VOM.

If you try to read the VOM into a bulb to
blade adaptor, you might just need wings.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Harold Lathom" wrote in message
...

I will do that. I don't have handy the screw-in
socket but I know what you mean and will pick
one up at the hardware store. I have a Fluke DMM
so that should be accurate enough once I get the
socket setup. The lights are in the ceiling (which
is tall) so it's a little cumbersome but I can wing it.

Thanks for the idea!

On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 15:53:44 +0000 (UTC), Harold Lathom
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 06:54:16 -0400, RBM wrote:
** I agree with Jw, it is a classic loose neutral condition. If you are
not electrically savvy get an electrician out.

I don't doubt the conclusion but I have one question.

Why would the lights, which at first are 1/4 brightness, 'warm up' to be
normal brightness?

Or do I just get used to the dimness?
Because the resistance is higher when hot, so the "voltage devider"
constructed across the bad neutral evens out as the bulb warms up.

Can't think, off-hand, of any other explanation than a floating or
"bad" neutral.

On Mar 21, 10:24*pm, Harold Lathom wrote:
I realize I need an electrician - but may I get advice first?

Two electrical phenomena:
1. Once every few months, I turn on a light and the bulb just blows out
(like a candle). It goes on and then poof. You can hear it blow the
filament. Obviously there is a voltage spike of some sort.

2. Every night, when I turn on the lights to two different circuits in
the house, all the bulbs on that circuit are dim - like about 1/4th the
normal brightness - and then within a few minutes, they all get up to
brightness.

They are all incandescent bulbs and there is no dimmer on the circuit
(that I know of). It's just a switch.

I realize both these things are weird and that an electrician needs to
look at it - but is this normal stuff for an electrician to debug?

Have you ever seen these weird happenings? Why would they happen?

If you call the electric co you might get it all fixed for free. When
I had power cutting out they found a loose connection outside and
checked and tightened the circuit panel screws and found a few loose,
all free. Its possible that bulb is getting 220-240, it can ruin most
everything you have if thats the case. Unplug things till its fixed.

On Mar 21, 11:24*pm, Harold Lathom wrote:
1. Once every few months, I turn on a light and the bulb just blows out
(like a candle). It goes on and then poof. You can hear it blow the
filament. Obviously there is a voltage spike of some sort.

No. You can NOT cause a "voltage spike" by turning on a switch.

The voltage absolutely, positively can NOT and will NOT go any higher
than the voltage being supplied to your panel by the electric company.
That's generally between 108 and 122 Volts AC per leg.

If it's "A" light, as in any one of a number of different lights in
your house, then it's normal. Bulbs wear out and blow.

If it's always the same light, at the same interval, and you keep
replacing it from the same box of bulbs, then you probably have a bad
batch.

That bulb that's been burning for 110 years in Chicago
notwithstanding, bulbs have a finite life span, and it isn't very log.

2. Every night, when I turn on the lights to two different circuits in
the house, all the bulbs on that circuit are dim - like about 1/4th the
normal brightness - and then within a few minutes, they all get up to
brightness.

That is a fire hazard. You've got a loose wire or a bad circuit
breaker or a bad fixture somewhere. That kind of stuff burns down
houses. Call an electrician ASAP.

Harold Lathom wrote in
:

On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 06:54:16 -0400, RBM wrote:
** I agree with Jw, it is a classic loose neutral condition. If you are
not electrically savvy get an electrician out.

I don't doubt the conclusion but I have one question.

Why would the lights, which at first are 1/4 brightness, 'warm up' to be
normal brightness?

Or do I just get used to the dimness?


I'd really be worrying about it. Bad connections can start fires.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
Must be a pretty small panel, to have slotted screws
for the main power feed. Most of the main power
feeds I've seen, you needed a big allen wrench to
tighten them. There may be some way to do the
tightening "hot". Electricians gloves, or something
like that. But, I don't want to be the one to find
out. I was talking to an electrical department guy
at Home Depot last night. He says the mains have
to be cranked down extremely tight, aluminum
tends to expand and contract a lot.

Might even be a problem in the power company's
wiring.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"jamesgangnc"
wrote in message
...

Concur. Loose neutral. If you are comfortable working with
high
power pull the breaker panel cover and check the tightness
of the set
screws for the mains coming into the panel from the meter.
In
particular the bare wire. Use a plastic handled
screwdriver.
Otherwise call an electrician asap.

** Since this problem only seems to affect a couple of circuits, it may not
be the main or anything outside. Could be just a loose neutral on an Edison
circuit

On 3/22/2011 10:16 AM spake thus:

On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 15:53:44 +0000 (UTC), Harold Lathom
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 06:54:16 -0400, RBM wrote:

** I agree with Jw, it is a classic loose neutral condition. If
you are not electrically savvy get an electrician out.

I don't doubt the conclusion but I have one question.

Why would the lights, which at first are 1/4 brightness, 'warm up'
to be normal brightness?

Or do I just get used to the dimness?

Because the resistance is higher when hot, so the "voltage devider"
constructed across the bad neutral evens out as the bulb warms up.

What the hell are you talking about? That sounds like nonsense, or at
least hand-waving. How would a "voltage divider" result in the behavior
the OP described?

I have no doubt that at least one of the problems he has *could* be an
open neutral (which would be exceedingly easy to determine with a little
probing with a meter), but so far none of the explanations I've read
here would explain why the lights gradually come up to full brightness.
That *is* just plain weird.


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

Hey, send me your name and adress. I want to take out a
policy on you, payable to me. Panel boxes scare me,
seriously so. That's one of the reasons I'm still alive.
Fear protects us from dangers.

Tighten everything in the panel box is a good idea. For
someone who's experienced, and has a healthy level of fear.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...


I'm experienced and not afraid of going in the panel.

In article , Harold Lathom wrote:

I realize I need an electrician - but may I get advice first?

Two electrical phenomena:
1. Once every few months, I turn on a light and the bulb just blows out
(like a candle). It goes on and then poof. You can hear it blow the
filament. Obviously there is a voltage spike of some sort.

Does it glow either normally or with excessive brightness, first? Or do
you get nothing but the Big Blue Flash?

2. Every night, when I turn on the lights to two different circuits in
the house, all the bulbs on that circuit are dim - like about 1/4th the
normal brightness - and then within a few minutes, they all get up to
brightness.

Are you sure these are not CFLs? There are some CFLs with regular shape
bulbs over them. Look for a plastic ballast housing at the base
(indicates CFL) or some low rated wattage typical of CFLs.

They are all incandescent bulbs and there is no dimmer on the circuit
(that I know of). It's just a switch.

I realize both these things are weird and that an electrician needs to
look at it - but is this normal stuff for an electrician to debug?

Have you ever seen these weird happenings? Why would they happen?

You may have an open neutral or an intermittently open neutral. This is
a very serious problem, because some loads would get excessive voltage,
leading to a possible fire hazard.

You may have a poor connection in the wiring - which is a fire hazard
because the poor connection can seriously overheat. This poor connection
may be intermittent, clearing itself up temporarily when it heats up. If
this is the case, it is still a fire hazard.

Electricians can normally figure these things out and fix them.
--
- Don Klipstein )

On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 13:04:50 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 3/22/2011 10:16 AM spake thus:

On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 15:53:44 +0000 (UTC), Harold Lathom
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 06:54:16 -0400, RBM wrote:

** I agree with Jw, it is a classic loose neutral condition. If
you are not electrically savvy get an electrician out.

I don't doubt the conclusion but I have one question.

Why would the lights, which at first are 1/4 brightness, 'warm up'
to be normal brightness?

Or do I just get used to the dimness?

Because the resistance is higher when hot, so the "voltage devider"
constructed across the bad neutral evens out as the bulb warms up.

What the hell are you talking about? That sounds like nonsense, or at
least hand-waving. How would a "voltage divider" result in the behavior
the OP described?


Do you understand voltage deviders and center tapped transformers?
If the neutral (the center tap) is "raised" it becomes the center of a
voltage devider, with differing resistances on either side causing a
change in voltage side to side. A lower resistance on side A will
cause a lower voltage drop, causing the voltage on side B to go up,
and vise versa..

Also, as the load increases a "bad" connection on the neutral will
heat up, and the connection CAN improve as the connectors expand -
that's assuming the bulb lasts long enough!

I have no doubt that at least one of the problems he has *could* be an
open neutral (which would be exceedingly easy to determine with a little
probing with a meter), but so far none of the explanations I've read
here would explain why the lights gradually come up to full brightness.
That *is* just plain weird.

On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 17:25:21 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Hey, send me your name and adress. I want to take out a
policy on you, payable to me. Panel boxes scare me,
seriously so. That's one of the reasons I'm still alive.
Fear protects us from dangers.

Tighten everything in the panel box is a good idea. For
someone who's experienced, and has a healthy level of fear.
Fear is counterproductive. Respect is mandatory, when working with
electrons.

On 3/22/2011 3:13 PM spake thus:

On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 13:04:50 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 3/22/2011 10:16 AM spake thus:

On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 15:53:44 +0000 (UTC), Harold Lathom
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 06:54:16 -0400, RBM wrote:

** I agree with Jw, it is a classic loose neutral condition. If
you are not electrically savvy get an electrician out.

I don't doubt the conclusion but I have one question.

Why would the lights, which at first are 1/4 brightness, 'warm up'
to be normal brightness?

Or do I just get used to the dimness?

Because the resistance is higher when hot, so the "voltage devider"
constructed across the bad neutral evens out as the bulb warms up.

What the hell are you talking about? That sounds like nonsense, or
at least hand-waving. How would a "voltage divider" result in the
behavior the OP described?

Do you understand voltage deviders and center tapped transformers?
If the neutral (the center tap) is "raised" it becomes the center of a
voltage devider, with differing resistances on either side causing a
change in voltage side to side. A lower resistance on side A will
cause a lower voltage drop, causing the voltage on side B to go up,
and vise versa..

Also, as the load increases a "bad" connection on the neutral will
heat up, and the connection CAN improve as the connectors expand -
that's assuming the bulb lasts long enough!

Now *that* could definitely be the cause of the OP's problem. But a bad
or open neutral by itself could not explain that gradually increasing
brightness that he described.

I'm beginning to think that Don Klipstein's question--"Are you sure the
bulbs aren't CFLs?"--is a pretty good one, even though the OP said they
were incandescent ...


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

On Mar 22, 6:05*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 06:37:32 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc





wrote:
On Mar 22, 8:38*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Must be a pretty small panel, to have slotted screws
for the main power feed. Most of the main power
feeds I've seen, you needed a big allen wrench to
tighten them. There may be some way to do the
tightening "hot". Electricians gloves, or something
like that. But, I don't want to be the one to find
out. I was talking to an electrical department guy
at Home Depot last night. He says the mains have
to be cranked down extremely tight, aluminum
tends to expand and contract a lot.

Might even be a problem in the power company's
wiring.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"jamesgangnc"
wrote in ...

Concur. *Loose neutral. *If you are comfortable working with
high
power pull the breaker panel cover and check the tightness
of the set
screws for the mains coming into the panel from the meter.
In
particular the bare wire. *Use a plastic handled
screwdriver.
Otherwise call an electrician asap.

Yes, sometimes they are allen. *You can use a platsic handled tool.
That's easy to find for slotted set screws. *Harder for allen. *You
can get T allens that have plastic on the grip end.

Upu can get allen bits that can be used on a 1/4" nutdriver with
insulated handle. *However, the OPs problem is more likely the neutral
which is pretty safe to tighten with any tool. *Most smaller panels
like 100A panels use screwdriver slots, at least the older ones did. *

From what the OP described, it sounds like it's only part of the house
doing this. *In that case, it's likely a neutral feeding a portion of
the house, not the mains. *Almost anyone with enough sense to shut off
the main breaker can check and tighten the neutral screws on all the
white wires in the breaker panel. *But some people are afraid to go
into a panel, and the problem could be somewhere downstream from the
panel too. *

I'm experienced and not afraid of going in the panel. *If this was my
problem, I'd inspect and tighten every screw in the entire panel,
except the hot mains. *Those I'd tighten too with the proper tools.
If that did not solve the problem, I'd proceed to open every light
fixture and outlet affected and check for loose connections of screws
and wirenuts. *That can be time consuming, but it's the same thing an
electrician will do and could be costly.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Just an fyi the neutral is not safe when it's floating. If it's
floating then there is a voltage difference between it and the real
ground you are standing on.

Good reminder. Need to stay insullated, for that task also.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"jamesgangnc"
wrote in message
...

Just an fyi the neutral is not safe when it's floating. If
it's
floating then there is a voltage difference between it and
the real
ground you are standing on.

On Mar 22, 8:38*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Must be a pretty small panel, to have slotted screws
for the main power feed. Most of the main power
feeds I've seen, you needed a big allen wrench to
tighten them. There may be some way to do the
tightening "hot". Electricians gloves, or something
like that. But, I don't want to be the one to find
out. I was talking to an electrical department guy
at Home Depot last night. He says the mains have
to be cranked down extremely tight, aluminum
tends to expand and contract a lot.

Might even be a problem in the power company's
wiring.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"jamesgangnc"
wrote in ...

Concur. *Loose neutral. *If you are comfortable working with
high
power pull the breaker panel cover and check the tightness
of the set
screws for the mains coming into the panel from the meter.
In
particular the bare wire. *Use a plastic handled
screwdriver.
Otherwise call an electrician asap.

Please don't get your electrical advice from any sales staff no matter
who they work for! The suggestion that the "mains have to be cranked
down extremely tight" is classic bad information. There is a reason
that the labeling in panels includes torque specifications.
"Extremely tight" could do as much harm as loose. The terminals are
designed for a specific torque so use the correct tool or leave them
alone.

As for tightening while energized that is a simple minded thing to
attempt. Lugs can fail completely during tightening, especially if
they are radically over torqued. That could lead to arc flash burns
unless you are wearing an arc flash protective ensemble that is too
expensive for a homeowner to own for just their own work and requires
extensive training to use effectively.

The bottom line here is that electrical work is not just color to
color! Ten percent of all structure fires are electrical in origin.
That is one in every ten structure fires people! Although many tasks
are within the reach of a talented amateur who is willing to invest
the time to learn good technique some are not. The most important
thing that a homeowner needs to develop to do electrical work safely
is good judgment as to when to call in an electrician. Good judgment
may come with experience but experience needn't come from bad
judgment. Until you develop a feel for how tight the connections
should be by having done hundreds of them you should use a torque
wrench or torque screwdriver to do all of your panel terminations.
--
Tom Horne

On Mar 22, 9:37*am, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Mar 22, 8:38*am, "Stormin Mormon"



wrote:
Must be a pretty small panel, to have slotted screws
for the main power feed. Most of the main power
feeds I've seen, you needed a big allen wrench to
tighten them. There may be some way to do the
tightening "hot". Electricians gloves, or something
like that. But, I don't want to be the one to find
out. I was talking to an electrical department guy
at Home Depot last night. He says the mains have
to be cranked down extremely tight, aluminum
tends to expand and contract a lot.

Might even be a problem in the power company's
wiring.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"jamesgangnc"
wrote in ...

Concur. *Loose neutral. *If you are comfortable working with
high
power pull the breaker panel cover and check the tightness
of the set
screws for the mains coming into the panel from the meter.
In
particular the bare wire. *Use a plastic handled
screwdriver.
Otherwise call an electrician asap.

Yes, sometimes they are allen. *You can use a platsic handled tool.
That's easy to find for slotted set screws. *Harder for allen. *You
can get T allens that have plastic on the grip end.

Please see my other reply on this topic of tightening the main lugs
hot. It is an extremely dangerous task that ought only be done by a
properly trained and equipped electrician. Plastic coated tools are
no substitute for insulated tools that are wielded by a trained
electrician wearing arc flash protective clothing. Attempting to
tighten the main lugs of an electric panel while energized can lead to
serious injury or death!
--
Tom Horne

On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 09:10:41 -0700 (PDT), Tom Horne
wrote:

On Mar 22, 9:37*am, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Mar 22, 8:38*am, "Stormin Mormon"



wrote:
Must be a pretty small panel, to have slotted screws
for the main power feed. Most of the main power
feeds I've seen, you needed a big allen wrench to
tighten them. There may be some way to do the
tightening "hot". Electricians gloves, or something
like that. But, I don't want to be the one to find
out. I was talking to an electrical department guy
at Home Depot last night. He says the mains have
to be cranked down extremely tight, aluminum
tends to expand and contract a lot.

Might even be a problem in the power company's
wiring.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"jamesgangnc"
wrote in ...

Concur. *Loose neutral. *If you are comfortable working with
high
power pull the breaker panel cover and check the tightness
of the set
screws for the mains coming into the panel from the meter.
In
particular the bare wire. *Use a plastic handled
screwdriver.
Otherwise call an electrician asap.

Yes, sometimes they are allen. *You can use a platsic handled tool.
That's easy to find for slotted set screws. *Harder for allen. *You
can get T allens that have plastic on the grip end.

Please see my other reply on this topic of tightening the main lugs
hot. It is an extremely dangerous task that ought only be done by a
properly trained and equipped electrician. Plastic coated tools are
no substitute for insulated tools that are wielded by a trained
electrician wearing arc flash protective clothing. Attempting to
tighten the main lugs of an electric panel while energized can lead to
serious injury or death!

The power company will come out for free, and turn the power off long
enough for you to tighten and inspect the connections.

The problem may be on the power company's connections. They will
check their's at the same time.

Our electrical co-op service guy loaned me his 1/2 Allen wrench and
propped up on the wall and watched me tighten my side.

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 09:10:41 -0700 (PDT), Tom Horne
wrote:

The power company will come out for free, and turn the power off long
enough for you to tighten and inspect the connections.

** This may be true for your power company, but it's not always the case.
I work with 3 electric utilities, all of which require the electrician to
do the disconnects and reconnects in these circumstances

On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 09:10:41 -0700 (PDT), Tom Horne
wrote:

On Mar 22, 9:37Â*am, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Mar 22, 8:38Â*am, "Stormin Mormon"



wrote:
Must be a pretty small panel, to have slotted screws
for the main power feed. Most of the main power
feeds I've seen, you needed a big allen wrench to
tighten them. There may be some way to do the
tightening "hot". Electricians gloves, or something
like that. But, I don't want to be the one to find
out. I was talking to an electrical department guy
at Home Depot last night. He says the mains have
to be cranked down extremely tight, aluminum
tends to expand and contract a lot.

Might even be a problem in the power company's
wiring.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
Â*www.lds.org
.

"jamesgangnc"
wrote in ...

Concur. Â*Loose neutral. Â*If you are comfortable working with
high
power pull the breaker panel cover and check the tightness
of the set
screws for the mains coming into the panel from the meter.
In
particular the bare wire. Â*Use a plastic handled
screwdriver.
Otherwise call an electrician asap.

Yes, sometimes they are allen. Â*You can use a platsic handled tool.
That's easy to find for slotted set screws. Â*Harder for allen. Â*You
can get T allens that have plastic on the grip end.

Please see my other reply on this topic of tightening the main lugs
hot. It is an extremely dangerous task that ought only be done by a
properly trained and equipped electrician. Plastic coated tools are
no substitute for insulated tools that are wielded by a trained
electrician wearing arc flash protective clothing. Attempting to
tighten the main lugs of an electric panel while energized can lead to
serious injury or death!
Arc flash is an unlikely occurence working on a hot feed with no
heavy loads turned on. When working on live feeds ALWAYS shut off all
load breakers or pull all load fuses so there is no LOAD on the system
while working on it. No load means no arc flash unless your tool
connects between live and neutral or ground. Common sense and a bit of
care - combined with the right tools, will prevent that from
happening.

Obviously, it is best to shut off the main before working on the
switched side - but it is also good to shut off the main before
working on the LIVE side for the same reason.

Thanks for the correction.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Tom Horne"
wrote in message
...

Please don't get your electrical advice from any sales staff
no matter
who they work for! The suggestion that the "mains have to
be cranked
down extremely tight" is classic bad information. There is
a reason
that the labeling in panels includes torque specifications.
"Extremely tight" could do as much harm as loose. The
terminals are
designed for a specific torque so use the correct tool or
leave them
alone.

As for tightening while energized that is a simple minded
thing to
attempt. Lugs can fail completely during tightening,
especially if
they are radically over torqued. That could lead to arc
flash burns
unless you are wearing an arc flash protective ensemble that
is too
expensive for a homeowner to own for just their own work and
requires
extensive training to use effectively.

The bottom line here is that electrical work is not just
color to
color! Ten percent of all structure fires are electrical in
origin.
That is one in every ten structure fires people! Although
many tasks
are within the reach of a talented amateur who is willing to
invest
the time to learn good technique some are not. The most
important
thing that a homeowner needs to develop to do electrical
work safely
is good judgment as to when to call in an electrician. Good
judgment
may come with experience but experience needn't come from
bad
judgment. Until you develop a feel for how tight the
connections
should be by having done hundreds of them you should use a
torque
wrench or torque screwdriver to do all of your panel
terminations.
--
Tom Horne

Cold panel, I hope?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Metspitzer" wrote in message
...


Please see my other reply on this topic of tightening the
main lugs
hot. It is an extremely dangerous task that ought only be
done by a
properly trained and equipped electrician. Plastic coated
tools are
no substitute for insulated tools that are wielded by a
trained
electrician wearing arc flash protective clothing.
Attempting to
tighten the main lugs of an electric panel while energized
can lead to
serious injury or death!

The power company will come out for free, and turn the power
off long
enough for you to tighten and inspect the connections.

The problem may be on the power company's connections. They
will
check their's at the same time.

Our electrical co-op service guy loaned me his 1/2 Allen
wrench and
propped up on the wall and watched me tighten my side.

In article , "RBM"
wrote:

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 09:10:41 -0700 (PDT), Tom Horne
wrote:

The power company will come out for free, and turn the power off long
enough for you to tighten and inspect the connections.

** This may be true for your power company, but it's not always the case.
I work with 3 electric utilities, all of which require the electrician to
do the disconnects and reconnects in these circumstances

the asterisks aren't helping.

On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 19:45:37 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article , "RBM"
wrote:

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 09:10:41 -0700 (PDT), Tom Horne
wrote:

The power company will come out for free, and turn the power off long
enough for you to tighten and inspect the connections.

** This may be true for your power company, but it's not always the case.
I work with 3 electric utilities, all of which require the electrician to
do the disconnects and reconnects in these circumstances

the asterisks aren't helping.

Agent version 3.3 is totally free News reader. aioe.org is a totally
free server.

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article , "RBM"
wrote:

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 09:10:41 -0700 (PDT), Tom Horne
wrote:

The power company will come out for free, and turn the power off long
enough for you to tighten and inspect the connections.

** This may be true for your power company, but it's not always the
case.
I work with 3 electric utilities, all of which require the electrician
to
do the disconnects and reconnects in these circumstances

the asterisks aren't helping.

** We aim to please

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 19:45:37 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article , "RBM"
wrote:

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 09:10:41 -0700 (PDT), Tom Horne
wrote:

The power company will come out for free, and turn the power off long
enough for you to tighten and inspect the connections.

** This may be true for your power company, but it's not always the
case.
I work with 3 electric utilities, all of which require the electrician
to
do the disconnects and reconnects in these circumstances

the asterisks aren't helping.

Agent version 3.3 is totally free News reader. aioe.org is a totally
free server.

** I'll check them out.

In the NY downstate region, if you have an electrical problem, even one
that's most likely a meter box or outdoor connection issue, you have to hire
an electrician first. He diagnoses the problem and either does the repair,
or if it is the utility companies domain, he contacts the power company to
make the repair. If it is the power compaies domain, they will reimburse the
customer for the electricians service charge.

wrote:
On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 09:10:41 -0700 (PDT), Tom Horne
wrote:

On Mar 22, 9:37 am, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Mar 22, 8:38 am, "Stormin Mormon"



wrote:
Must be a pretty small panel, to have slotted screws
for the main power feed. Most of the main power
feeds I've seen, you needed a big allen wrench to
tighten them. There may be some way to do the
tightening "hot". Electricians gloves, or something
like that. But, I don't want to be the one to find
out. I was talking to an electrical department guy
at Home Depot last night. He says the mains have
to be cranked down extremely tight, aluminum
tends to expand and contract a lot.
Might even be a problem in the power company's
wiring.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"jamesgangnc"
wrote in ...
Concur. Loose neutral. If you are comfortable working with
high
power pull the breaker panel cover and check the tightness
of the set
screws for the mains coming into the panel from the meter.
In
particular the bare wire. Use a plastic handled
screwdriver.
Otherwise call an electrician asap.
Yes, sometimes they are allen. You can use a platsic handled tool.
That's easy to find for slotted set screws. Harder for allen. You
can get T allens that have plastic on the grip end.
Please see my other reply on this topic of tightening the main lugs
hot. It is an extremely dangerous task that ought only be done by a
properly trained and equipped electrician. Plastic coated tools are
no substitute for insulated tools that are wielded by a trained
electrician wearing arc flash protective clothing. Attempting to
tighten the main lugs of an electric panel while energized can lead to
serious injury or death!
Arc flash is an unlikely occurence working on a hot feed with no
heavy loads turned on. When working on live feeds ALWAYS shut off all
load breakers or pull all load fuses so there is no LOAD on the system
while working on it. No load means no arc flash unless your tool
connects between live and neutral or ground. Common sense and a bit of
care - combined with the right tools, will prevent that from
happening.

Obviously, it is best to shut off the main before working on the
switched side - but it is also good to shut off the main before
working on the LIVE side for the same reason.

It would be a bit difficult to get arc flash in loose load wiring, where
the current is limited to the load current.

You get arc flash by shorting a high current supply. It can occur
downstream from a fuse or circuit breaker, but is worse on service
wires. In a house, it could be from an allen wrench shorting H-N service
wire terminals where there is likely 5,000 to 10,000A available for
short circuit current, with minimal overcurrent protection upstream from
the utility. The allen wrench vaporizes into a conductive plasma that
can maintain the arc. Vaporized metal expands rapidly - an explosion.
Heat can produce severe burns, as can vaporized metal condensing on you
skin. And the explosion can produce shrapnel, like the remains of the
allen wrench. You can get killed several different ways.

--
bud--

On Mar 23, 4:08*pm, wrote:
*Arc flash is an unlikely occurence working on a hot feed with no
heavy loads turned on.

A metal tool shorting two legs (or hot and ground/neutral) together
would be a heavy load, no?

On Thu, 24 Mar 2011 09:28:42 -0700 (PDT), Larry Fishel
wrote:

On Mar 23, 4:08*pm, wrote:
*Arc flash is an unlikely occurence working on a hot feed with no
heavy loads turned on.

A metal tool shorting two legs (or hot and ground/neutral) together
would be a heavy load, no?

Yes it would (for less than a second). I know that from first hand
experience. I had a pair of needle nose pliers go phase to phase in a
240V panel. A sprinkler guy said he saw a flash from both doors of
the electrical closet and then the lights on the entire floor went
out.

Lesson learned.......When changing a breaker in a hot panel, if you
don't have the correct sized nut driver in your tool pouch, go get it.
Do not use needle nose pliers.