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#1
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Toilet install question
When a new toilet was installed, the plumber reported that the opening
in the toilet wasn't big enough to set over the flange, which rises slightly over the floor height. So he had to shim, using wood shims, so that the toilet is almost an inch off the floor. Plus level is off a quarter of an inch front to back and side to side. The mounting bolts apparently lined up properly. The toilet that was replaced fit over the flange and sat directly on the floor with no shimming. Isn't the opening where the toilet meets the flange a standardized measure? This is an American Standard "Saver" from Lowe's and a Lowe's installer did the job. I'm thinking that this thing sitting on shims, especially wood shims, and not the floor is not going to work out in the long run. I've contacted Lowe's about the situation and they say they are going to research the matter. |
#2
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Toilet install question
yo wrote:
When a new toilet was installed, the plumber reported that the opening in the toilet wasn't big enough to set over the flange, which rises slightly over the floor height. So he had to shim, using wood shims, so that the toilet is almost an inch off the floor. Plus level is off a quarter of an inch front to back and side to side. The mounting bolts apparently lined up properly. The toilet that was replaced fit over the flange and sat directly on the floor with no shimming. Isn't the opening where the toilet meets the flange a standardized measure? This is an American Standard "Saver" from Lowe's and a Lowe's installer did the job. I'm thinking that this thing sitting on shims, especially wood shims, and not the floor is not going to work out in the long run. I've contacted Lowe's about the situation and they say they are going to research the matter. You are correct. The toilet should sit directly ON the floor, not propped up on stilts. Fer cryin' out loud! If I were you, I'd fuss like the third monkey on Noah's gangplank. Tell 'em you already fell off it once and bruised your shoulder. You are afraid of breaking your hip. |
#3
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Toilet install question
"yo" wrote Isn't the opening where the toilet meets the flange a standardized measure? This is an American Standard "Saver" from Lowe's and a Lowe's installer did the job. I think I see the problem. For a few dollars more, a real plumber would do the job right the first time. At least you've learned a lesson. |
#4
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Toilet install question
On Tue, 22 Feb 2011 22:12:22 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote: "yo" wrote Isn't the opening where the toilet meets the flange a standardized measure? This is an American Standard "Saver" from Lowe's and a Lowe's installer did the job. I think I see the problem. For a few dollars more, a real plumber would do the job right the first time. At least you've learned a lesson. I called a _real_ garage door company* for a new door install. Sure they tell me. "Go to Lowes and buy the door. It will be $200.00 cheaper." I challenged the nice guy and stated "only factory trained installers can install your company doors." His reply: "Yes, Lowes will fax the order to the warehouse." It's the first time I found out these box stores are moving to better service. * http://www.martindoor.com/ When you get this door, don't look back. |
#5
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Toilet install question
On 2/22/2011 3:20 PM, yo wrote:
When a new toilet was installed, the plumber reported that the opening in the toilet wasn't big enough to set over the flange, which rises slightly over the floor height. So he had to shim, using wood shims, so that the toilet is almost an inch off the floor. Plus level is off a quarter of an inch front to back and side to side. The mounting bolts apparently lined up properly. The toilet that was replaced fit over the flange and sat directly on the floor with no shimming. Isn't the opening where the toilet meets the flange a standardized measure? This is an American Standard "Saver" from Lowe's and a Lowe's installer did the job. I'm thinking that this thing sitting on shims, especially wood shims, and not the floor is not going to work out in the long run. I've contacted Lowe's about the situation and they say they are going to research the matter. I think i know what may have happened. Is this an old house with cast iron sewer pipes? If so, the bell end of the 4" may be above the floor, and they typically would set the (old style) toilets down over that with a big old wax ring. But the more modern toilets don't have enough "cavity" in the casting to accomodate this tall of a piece under them. The only choice is to space the toilet up a bit (i've done this once, a lot neater than they did) or remove the bell end from the pipe. That proves to be a little harder, although not impossible. Once the bell end is removed, THEN you can take a piece of 3" PVC several inches long, and a normal PVC flange, glue them together. Drop the three inch into the cast iron, using copious amounts of silicone sealer right UNDER the flange, then screw the flange to the surrounding wood. Then proceed as usual. The hard part is removing that bell end or at least lowering it. A grinder with a wafer wheel and attention to where sparks are going is usually the quickest way with the best results. -- Steve Barker remove the "not" from my address to email |
#6
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Toilet install question
On Feb 23, 8:35*am, Steve Barker wrote:
On 2/22/2011 3:20 PM, yo wrote: When a new toilet was installed, the plumber reported that the opening in the toilet wasn't big enough to set over the flange, which rises slightly over the floor height. *So he had to shim, using wood shims, so that the toilet is almost an inch off the floor. *Plus level is off a quarter of an inch front to back and side to side. *The mounting bolts apparently lined up properly. The toilet that was replaced fit over the flange and sat directly on the floor with no shimming. Isn't the opening where the toilet meets the flange a standardized measure? *This is an American Standard "Saver" from Lowe's and a Lowe's installer did the job. *I'm thinking that this thing sitting on shims, especially wood shims, and not the floor is not going to work out in the long run. I've contacted Lowe's about the situation and they say they are going to research the matter. I think i know what may have happened. *Is this an old house with cast iron sewer pipes? *If so, the bell end of the 4" may be above the floor, and they typically would set the (old style) toilets down over that with a big old wax ring. *But the more modern toilets don't have enough "cavity" in the casting to accomodate this tall of a piece under them. The only choice is to space the toilet up a bit (i've done this once, a lot neater than they did) or remove the bell end from the pipe. *That proves to be a little harder, although not impossible. *Once the bell end is removed, THEN you can take a piece of 3" PVC several inches long, and a normal PVC flange, glue them together. *Drop the three inch into the cast iron, using copious amounts of silicone sealer right UNDER the flange, then screw the flange to the surrounding wood. *Then proceed as usual. *The hard part is removing that bell end or at least lowering it.. * A grinder with a wafer wheel and attention to where sparks are going is usually the quickest way with the best results. -- Steve Barker remove the "not" from my address to email Yes, the house was built in 1959. And the installer did say something about the configuration of the trap or trap way having something to do with it. However, he also said that a different type toilet would probably fit. As an example, he said he was pretty sure a Kohler Cimmaron would work. It's interesting that with scores of older houses having bathroom redoes, that this never came up in this group, especially with the wealth of knowledge and experience you guys display daily. If you're correct, then I'm going to have to replace the toilet with a better fit and see if Lowe's will do anything about the install. Thanks. |
#7
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Toilet install question
yo wrote:
Yes, the house was built in 1959. And the installer did say something about the configuration of the trap or trap way having something to do with it. However, he also said that a different type toilet would probably fit. As an example, he said he was pretty sure a Kohler Cimmaron would work. It's interesting that with scores of older houses having bathroom redoes, that this never came up in this group, especially with the wealth of knowledge and experience you guys display daily. If you're correct, then I'm going to have to replace the toilet with a better fit and see if Lowe's will do anything about the install. If Lowes won't do anything about this crappy install, your local small-claims court will. If all the suppositions are correct, that this house does not easily accommodate your new toilet, the installer should have told you this within five minutes. Had he done so, you could have exchanged the toilet or negotiated with the plumber for a proper installation. As things stand, you have a mess to sort out. |
#8
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Toilet install question
On Feb 23, 10:35*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
yo wrote: Yes, the house was built in 1959. *And the installer did say something about the configuration of the trap or trap way having something to do with it. *However, he also said that a different type toilet would probably fit. *As an example, he said he was pretty sure a Kohler Cimmaron would work. *It's interesting that with scores of older houses having bathroom redoes, that this never came up in this group, especially with the wealth of knowledge and experience you guys display daily. If you're correct, then I'm going to have to replace the toilet with a better fit and see if Lowe's will do anything about the install. If Lowes won't do anything about this crappy install, your local small-claims court will. If all the suppositions are correct, that this house does not easily accommodate your new toilet, the installer should have told you this within five minutes. Had he done so, you could have exchanged the toilet or negotiated with the plumber for a proper installation. As things stand, you have a mess to sort out. Here's the situation. American Standard says their toilets are designed to fit flush on the flange assuming the flange is flush with the floor. Kohler said that their toilets will allow for the flange to be about 1/2 and inch above the floor. Just got back from Lowe's and they opened a box of my model to compare with the bottom of the Kohler and found that the "cavity" space is essentially the same, so nothing would be gained by switching to Kohler. Furthermore, they contacted the plumber who said that the flange was one inch above the floor anyway and apparently there isn't a toilet that has that kind of room to work with. When I looked at the flange, it did not appear to me to be that high, but I didn't look that closely. One of the guys in the plumbing department guesses, as did Steve Barker in his previous post, that the end of the pipe needs to be cut off and new flange installed. The plumber who did the install only gets into that kind of a job if the piping is PVC. The other option would be to tile over the old terrazzo to raise the floor, which may be the way to go anyway. If anything interesting develops later, I'll update. Thanks for the comments. |
#9
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Toilet install question
On Feb 23, 11:01*am, yo wrote:
snip One of the guys in the plumbing department guesses, as did Steve Barker in his previous post, that the end of the pipe needs to be cut off and new flange installed. *The plumber who did the install only gets into that kind of a job if the piping is PVC. *The other option would be to tile over the old terrazzo to raise the floor, which may be the way to go anyway. If anything interesting develops later, I'll update. *Thanks for the comments. If you need to apply a bit more leverage, consider a quiet chat with the code enforcement guys down at city hall. If the amateur installer hasn't followed building codes, he could be invited downtown for a review of the current standards. And maybe permits and licenses. Joe |
#10
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Toilet install question
On Feb 23, 12:01*pm, yo wrote:
On Feb 23, 10:35*am, "HeyBub" wrote: yo wrote: Yes, the house was built in 1959. *And the installer did say something about the configuration of the trap or trap way having something to do with it. *However, he also said that a different type toilet would probably fit. *As an example, he said he was pretty sure a Kohler Cimmaron would work. *It's interesting that with scores of older houses having bathroom redoes, that this never came up in this group, especially with the wealth of knowledge and experience you guys display daily. If you're correct, then I'm going to have to replace the toilet with a better fit and see if Lowe's will do anything about the install. If Lowes won't do anything about this crappy install, your local small-claims court will. If all the suppositions are correct, that this house does not easily accommodate your new toilet, the installer should have told you this within five minutes. Had he done so, you could have exchanged the toilet or negotiated with the plumber for a proper installation. As things stand, you have a mess to sort out. Here's the situation. *American Standard says their toilets are designed to fit flush on the flange assuming the flange is flush with the floor. *Kohler said that their toilets will allow for the flange to be about 1/2 and inch above the floor. *Just got back from Lowe's and they opened a box of my model to compare with the bottom of the Kohler and found that the "cavity" space is essentially the same, so nothing would be gained by switching to Kohler. *Furthermore, they contacted the plumber who said that the flange was one inch above the floor anyway and apparently there isn't a toilet that has that kind of room to work with. *When I looked at the flange, it did not appear to me to be that high, but I didn't look that closely. One of the guys in the plumbing department guesses, as did Steve Barker in his previous post, that the end of the pipe needs to be cut off and new flange installed. *The plumber who did the install only gets into that kind of a job if the piping is PVC. *The other option would be to tile over the old terrazzo to raise the floor, which may be the way to go anyway. If anything interesting develops later, I'll update. *Thanks for the comments. LOL... Stop going back to Lowe's, especially if they can not send you a "real" plumber than is capable and confident in any type of piping... It would be like finding an electrician that doesn't know how to deal with conduits or armored cable... Would you go to an auto mechanic if they only knew how to repair Ford and GM ? What if you had a Dodge ? Seriously, look for a real plumber and have the flange adjusted to how it needs to be for a modern toilet... Asking the "peoples" at HD or Lowe's what is available is bull****, as they really only know what is available for them to order through corporate channels, go to a real plumbing supply house and explain your situation and you will be informed that yes, such toilets are available but in a more limited number of styles and colors... ~~ Evan |
#11
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Toilet install question
On Feb 23, 9:12*am, yo wrote:
On Feb 23, 8:35*am, Steve Barker wrote: On 2/22/2011 3:20 PM, yo wrote: When a new toilet was installed, the plumber reported that the opening in the toilet wasn't big enough to set over the flange, which rises slightly over the floor height. *So he had to shim, using wood shims, so that the toilet is almost an inch off the floor. *Plus level is off a quarter of an inch front to back and side to side. *The mounting bolts apparently lined up properly. The toilet that was replaced fit over the flange and sat directly on the floor with no shimming. Isn't the opening where the toilet meets the flange a standardized measure? *This is an American Standard "Saver" from Lowe's and a Lowe's installer did the job. *I'm thinking that this thing sitting on shims, especially wood shims, and not the floor is not going to work out in the long run. I've contacted Lowe's about the situation and they say they are going to research the matter. I think i know what may have happened. *Is this an old house with cast iron sewer pipes? *If so, the bell end of the 4" may be above the floor, and they typically would set the (old style) toilets down over that with a big old wax ring. *But the more modern toilets don't have enough "cavity" in the casting to accomodate this tall of a piece under them. The only choice is to space the toilet up a bit (i've done this once, a lot neater than they did) or remove the bell end from the pipe. *That proves to be a little harder, although not impossible. *Once the bell end is removed, THEN you can take a piece of 3" PVC several inches long, and a normal PVC flange, glue them together. *Drop the three inch into the cast iron, using copious amounts of silicone sealer right UNDER the flange, then screw the flange to the surrounding wood. *Then proceed as usual. *The hard part is removing that bell end or at least lowering it. * A grinder with a wafer wheel and attention to where sparks are going is usually the quickest way with the best results. -- Steve Barker remove the "not" from my address to email Yes, the house was built in 1959. *And the installer did say something about the configuration of the trap or trap way having something to do with it. *However, he also said that a different type toilet would probably fit. *As an example, he said he was pretty sure a Kohler Cimmaron would work. *It's interesting that with scores of older houses having bathroom redoes, that this never came up in this group, especially with the wealth of knowledge and experience you guys display daily. If you're correct, then I'm going to have to replace the toilet with a better fit and see if Lowe's will do anything about the install. Thanks. LOL... Lowe's isn't going to do anything about the install, because you allowed the "technician" to leave after it was completed... This means that you excepted the work that was done when it was completed... Asking after the fact for a change is something you will have to pay for on your own and prepare for a lawsuit going as far as actually filing it before you will be offered a settlement... Read the fine printing on the sales receipt for the toilet and "install" if you are having any problems understanding the terms you agreed to at the time of the sale... It is up to you to verify that someone who is doing work on your home is actually a licensed plumber... Sounds to me like you were serviced by a "handyman company" rather than by a licensed plumber, as a licensed plumber would have either asked if you wanted to modify the flange to use the toilet you just purchased or if you wanted to go back and select the correct toilet to fit your flange... A licensed plumber would not have done anything like you have described here and linked to a picture of... That work was NOT done in a "workmanlike manner" so it is clear that you were hosed on this install job, it was done by a handyman or someone who won't be keeping their plumbing license very long if they keep doing like that... ~~ Evan |
#12
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Toilet install question
On Feb 23, 8:12*am, yo wrote:
On Feb 23, 8:35*am, Steve Barker wrote: On 2/22/2011 3:20 PM, yo wrote: When a new toilet was installed, the plumber reported that the opening in the toilet wasn't big enough to set over the flange, which rises slightly over the floor height. *So he had to shim, using wood shims, so that the toilet is almost an inch off the floor. *Plus level is off a quarter of an inch front to back and side to side. *The mounting bolts apparently lined up properly. The toilet that was replaced fit over the flange and sat directly on the floor with no shimming. Isn't the opening where the toilet meets the flange a standardized measure? *This is an American Standard "Saver" from Lowe's and a Lowe's installer did the job. *I'm thinking that this thing sitting on shims, especially wood shims, and not the floor is not going to work out in the long run. I've contacted Lowe's about the situation and they say they are going to research the matter. I think i know what may have happened. *Is this an old house with cast iron sewer pipes? *If so, the bell end of the 4" may be above the floor, and they typically would set the (old style) toilets down over that with a big old wax ring. *But the more modern toilets don't have enough "cavity" in the casting to accomodate this tall of a piece under them. The only choice is to space the toilet up a bit (i've done this once, a lot neater than they did) or remove the bell end from the pipe. *That proves to be a little harder, although not impossible. *Once the bell end is removed, THEN you can take a piece of 3" PVC several inches long, and a normal PVC flange, glue them together. *Drop the three inch into the cast iron, using copious amounts of silicone sealer right UNDER the flange, then screw the flange to the surrounding wood. *Then proceed as usual. *The hard part is removing that bell end or at least lowering it. * A grinder with a wafer wheel and attention to where sparks are going is usually the quickest way with the best results. -- Steve Barker remove the "not" from my address to email Yes, the house was built in 1959. *And the installer did say something about the configuration of the trap or trap way having something to do with it. *However, he also said that a different type toilet would probably fit. *As an example, he said he was pretty sure a Kohler Cimmaron would work. *It's interesting that with scores of older houses having bathroom redoes, that this never came up in this group, especially with the wealth of knowledge and experience you guys display daily. If you're correct, then I'm going to have to replace the toilet with a better fit and see if Lowe's will do anything about the install. Thanks.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - 1959 is not "old". Maybe anything before 1945 would be opld, but flanges have not changed since 1950 in my experience. |
#13
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Toilet install question
Steve Barker wrote in
: On 2/22/2011 3:20 PM, yo wrote: When a new toilet was installed, the plumber reported that the opening in the toilet wasn't big enough to set over the flange, which rises slightly over the floor height. So he had to shim, using wood shims, so that the toilet is almost an inch off the floor. Plus level is off a quarter of an inch front to back and side to side. The mounting bolts apparently lined up properly. The toilet that was replaced fit over the flange and sat directly on the floor with no shimming. Isn't the opening where the toilet meets the flange a standardized measure? This is an American Standard "Saver" from Lowe's and a Lowe's installer did the job. I'm thinking that this thing sitting on shims, especially wood shims, and not the floor is not going to work out in the long run. I've contacted Lowe's about the situation and they say they are going to research the matter. I think i know what may have happened. Is this an old house with cast iron sewer pipes? If so, the bell end of the 4" may be above the floor, and they typically would set the (old style) toilets down over that with a big old wax ring. But the more modern toilets don't have enough "cavity" in the casting to accomodate this tall of a piece under them. The only choice is to space the toilet up a bit (i've done this once, a lot neater than they did) or remove the bell end from the pipe. That proves to be a little harder, although not impossible. Once the bell end is removed, THEN you can take a piece of 3" PVC several inches long, and a normal PVC flange, glue them together. Drop the three inch into the cast iron, using copious amounts of silicone sealer right UNDER the flange, then screw the flange to the surrounding wood. Then proceed as usual. The hard part is removing that bell end or at least lowering it. A grinder with a wafer wheel and attention to where sparks are going is usually the quickest way with the best results. Sounds like you know more about cast iron setups than I do Steve. That really doesn't take much :-) I just recently put a Toto toilet in for someone. Old floor totally rotted out. Anyway, when I pulled the old toilet (that was mounted with LAG bolts...that I removed with my fingers), there was some kind of cast or lead flange. I don't know if what type of floor OP's toilet was on but in my case I pulled all that crap out, cut pipe in basement and installed a new closet flange to existing pipe below where I cut. I ain't no plumber by any means but sure came up with a better solution than that Toilet Swapper plumber. |
#14
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Toilet install question
"Red Green" wrote in message ... Steve Barker wrote in : On 2/22/2011 3:20 PM, yo wrote: When a new toilet was installed, the plumber reported that the opening in the toilet wasn't big enough to set over the flange, which rises slightly over the floor height. So he had to shim, using wood shims, so that the toilet is almost an inch off the floor. Plus level is off a quarter of an inch front to back and side to side. The mounting bolts apparently lined up properly. The toilet that was replaced fit over the flange and sat directly on the floor with no shimming. Isn't the opening where the toilet meets the flange a standardized measure? This is an American Standard "Saver" from Lowe's and a Lowe's installer did the job. I'm thinking that this thing sitting on shims, especially wood shims, and not the floor is not going to work out in the long run. I've contacted Lowe's about the situation and they say they are going to research the matter. I think i know what may have happened. Is this an old house with cast iron sewer pipes? If so, the bell end of the 4" may be above the floor, and they typically would set the (old style) toilets down over that with a big old wax ring. But the more modern toilets don't have enough "cavity" in the casting to accomodate this tall of a piece under them. The only choice is to space the toilet up a bit (i've done this once, a lot neater than they did) or remove the bell end from the pipe. That proves to be a little harder, although not impossible. Once the bell end is removed, THEN you can take a piece of 3" PVC several inches long, and a normal PVC flange, glue them together. Drop the three inch into the cast iron, using copious amounts of silicone sealer right UNDER the flange, then screw the flange to the surrounding wood. Then proceed as usual. The hard part is removing that bell end or at least lowering it. A grinder with a wafer wheel and attention to where sparks are going is usually the quickest way with the best results. Sounds like you know more about cast iron setups than I do Steve. That really doesn't take much :-) I just recently put a Toto toilet in for someone. Old floor totally rotted out. Anyway, when I pulled the old toilet (that was mounted with LAG bolts...that I removed with my fingers), there was some kind of cast or lead flange. I don't know if what type of floor OP's toilet was on but in my case I pulled all that crap out, cut pipe in basement and installed a new closet flange to existing pipe below where I cut. I ain't no plumber by any means but sure came up with a better solution than that Toilet Swapper plumber. The easiest way to do this with an (to my mind) acceptable kludge is to raise the toilet by putting a marble toilet slab under the toilet. This would spread the weight across a larger area and make it more secure. A plumbing supply house should either carry such a slab or probably would know where you can get one. -- Peace, BobJ |
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