DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Feb 14, 4:38 pm, Sjouke Burry
wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Feb 14, 2:33 am, Sjouke Burry
wrote:
Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Feb 14, 12:41 am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Feb 13, 11:27 pm, Van wrote:
I mean the average residential oven. I've never seen one with a temp
gauge. Is it because the oven manufacturers don't want you to know
how inaccurate their ovens are compared with the setting on the knob?
My Mom's electric stove has both a readout for the "set" temperature
and the actual temperature, at least while the oven is heating up. In
other words, you spin the knob to set the digital readout to 350 and
you can watch a smaller number in the corner of the display climb
towards 350.
To be honest, I don't recall if the "actual" temperature readout
varies during the cooking and since she lives 300 miles away, I can't
check tonight. :-)
My gas oven has a readout only for what it's set for. It reads "Pre"
while it's warming up, but when it reaches the set point it beeps and
displays the set point until the oven is turned off.
My 2 yr. old Bosch gas range displays the so-called actual temp during
oven warmup also, but I don't think it's accurate. After warmup, that
display goes out and all I see is the setpoint. Obviously the temp in an
oven is being monitored, but if the monitoring device isn't accurate
then it isn't accurate. I'm pretty sure mine is ~20 degrees F low.
Excursions from setpoint aren't that important to me; there has to be
some hysteresis built into the control algorithm and I trust the
engineers on that count.
You may trust your engineers, but I don't trust mine.
Even when monitoring the actual temperature with an internal "shelf"
thermometer, and seeing it read exactly what the set-point says,
everything - and I mean *everything* - takes longer to cook than the
recipe - *any* recipe - says it should.
One day I'll actually remember to bring home an oven thermometer to
check my oven. I'd assumed that it was running low, just because
everything takes longer to cook, but maybe something else is going on.
I've been satisfied with putting the setpoint 20-25 higher than called
for.
In a lot of cases it is (silently)assumed that the oven is pre-heated
to the proper temperature, and ingredients at room temperature.
Both of those can influence cooking/broiling/frying times quite a lot.
In my case, pre-heating is always done unless called for otherwise in
the recipe.
Room temperature of the food doesn't matter. Breads, cake batter,
marinated meats brought up to room temperature all take longer than
written. (Bringing marinated meats up to room temperature helps the
meat draw the marinate deeper into the meat)
BTW, why is called pre-heating? pre means before. We're not doing
anything "before" heating the oven, we're just *heating* the oven as
soon as we turn it on.
Yeah... But before you put the turky in it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So call it pre-turkey, not pre-heating.

When the water heater tries to get the water up to 120 degrees, it is
"pre-heating" it before it reaches 120 or is it heating it to 120
degrees?

When my furnace is heating the air to warm the house, does it pre-heat
the air or does it simply heat it?

Why don't they just say "heat the oven to 375 degrees"?

When did you learn to pick a nit? Before or after?

[angel]
On Feb 14, 4:38 pm,
wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Feb 14, 2:33 am,
wrote:
Smitty Two wrote:
In article
596m,
Dernet wrote:
On Feb k.net wrote:
In article
ccom,
Dert wrote:
[Christmas
presents
under the
tree]

On Feb 14, 5:38*pm, Sjouke Burry
wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Feb 14, 4:38 pm, Sjouke Burry
wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Feb 14, 2:33 am, Sjouke Burry
wrote:
Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
*DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Feb 14, 12:41 am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
*DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Feb 13, 11:27 pm, Van wrote:
I mean the average residential oven. *I've never seen one with a temp
gauge. *Is it because the oven manufacturers don't want you to know
how inaccurate their ovens are compared with the setting on the knob?
My Mom's electric stove has both a readout for the "set" temperature
and the actual temperature, at least while the oven is heating up. In
other words, you spin the knob to set the digital readout to 350 and
you can watch a smaller number in the corner of the display climb
towards 350.
To be honest, I don't recall if the "actual" temperature readout
varies during the cooking and since she lives 300 miles away, I can't
check tonight. :-)
My gas oven has a readout only for what it's set for. It reads "Pre"
while it's warming up, but when it reaches the set point it beeps and
displays the set point until the oven is turned off.
My 2 yr. old Bosch gas range displays the so-called actual temp during
oven warmup also, but I don't think it's accurate. After warmup, that
display goes out and all I see is the setpoint. Obviously the temp in an
oven is being monitored, but if the monitoring device isn't accurate
then it isn't accurate. I'm pretty sure mine is ~20 degrees F low..
Excursions from setpoint aren't that important to me; there has to be
some hysteresis built into the control algorithm and I trust the
engineers on that count.
You may trust your engineers, but I don't trust mine.
Even when monitoring the actual temperature with an internal "shelf"
thermometer, and seeing it read exactly what the set-point says,
everything - and I mean *everything* - takes longer to cook than the
recipe - *any* recipe - says it should.
One day I'll actually remember to bring home an oven thermometer to
check my oven. I'd assumed that it was running low, just because
everything takes longer to cook, but maybe something else is going on.
I've been satisfied with putting the setpoint 20-25 higher than called
for.
In a lot of cases it is (silently)assumed that the oven is pre-heated
to the proper temperature, and ingredients at room temperature.
Both of those can influence cooking/broiling/frying times quite a lot.

In article ,
" wrote:


I have no reason to believe that an oven thermometer is any more
accurate than the oven thermostat.


I have laboratory thermometers at work, not K-mart ones, so I trust
them.

On Feb 14, 9:05*pm, Van wrote:
On Feb 14, 10:55*am, Art Todesco wrote:



On 2/14/2011 12:41 AM, Smitty Two wrote:

In article
,
* *wrote:

On Feb 13, 11:27 pm, *wrote:
I mean the average residential oven. *I've never seen one with a temp
gauge. *Is it because the oven manufacturers don't want you to know
how inaccurate their ovens are compared with the setting on the knob?

My Mom's electric stove has both a readout for the "set" temperature
and the actual temperature, at least while the oven is heating up. In
other words, you spin the knob to set the digital readout to 350 and
you can watch a smaller number in the corner of the display climb
towards 350.

To be honest, I don't recall if the "actual" temperature readout
varies during the cooking and since she lives 300 miles away, I can't
check tonight. :-)

My gas oven has a readout only for what it's set for. It reads "Pre"
while it's warming up, but when it reaches the set point it beeps and
displays the set point until the oven is turned off.

My 2 yr. old Bosch gas range displays the so-called actual temp during
oven warmup also, but I don't think it's accurate. After warmup, that
display goes out and all I see is the setpoint. Obviously the temp in an
oven is being monitored, but if the monitoring device isn't accurate
then it isn't accurate. I'm pretty sure mine is ~20 degrees F low.

Excursions from setpoint aren't that important to me; there has to be
some hysteresis built into the control algorithm and I trust the
engineers on that count.

My guess is the don't want you to know how much it varies. *My last
oven was a Dacor piece of junk. *It varied all over the place. *When
I contacted the factory, the person repeatedly read the line,
"Industry standard for residential oven is that it can vary by 25
degrees" ... not saying if it + or - 25 or a range of 25. *I later
got the answer that it was a range of 25. *I did extensive testing
and found that its range was about 35 or 40 degrees. *The authorized
service people couldn't make it better. *I gave up and lived with
the stupid thing. *40 degrees is no problem for a big roast or
something like that, but for a cookie or something that small, it is
far to iffy. *If you put it in at the top of the range, the cookie
will likely be over crisp ... at the bottom of the range, it will
not cook in the allotted time. *About 8 years after that, I called
the company and asked if they had ever fixed their problems. *They
offered a new control panel for free, but I would have to pay to
have it installed and no, I couldn't do it myself. *I bit, it was
about 50% better. *BTW, this oven had no temperature reading other
than the set temp. *A bit to their defense, it is hard to hold the
temp tight, especially when one side of the cube keeps being opened
and of course, you don't want overshoot for a red hot cal rod. *But,
I think they could do better. *My present new Whirlpool has just as
many dumb "features" designed in. *For instance, when broiling, if
you open the door, the upper cal rod shuts down. *And then it takes
forever to get cherry red again. *It also shuts down at 500 degrees.
* How do you broil in an "oven" at 500 degrees? *And you can't leave
the door open. *My old Dacor recommended broiling with the door
open. *For the few times I use the Whirlpool for top brown broiling
( use a gas grill for hunks of meat), I leave the door open and put
a magnet on the latch to trick it into leaving the power on. *That
works for me. *Sorry for the rant and partial hijack of the "Subject"..

This confirms what I suspected about the inaccurate temps. *At work we
have big industrial ovens for baking electronics and there are strong
fans that circulate the air inside. *The temp never wavers more than a
degree, if that (until we open the door). *Residential ovens would
probably need fans to achieve the same accuracy but that would be more
expense and noise.

"Residential ovens would probably need fans to achieve the same
accuracy but that would be more expense and noise."

They call them "convection ovens" and they are readily available in
the consumer market in styles that range from toaster ovens to full
ranges.

Google convection ovens

In article
,
DerbyDad03 wrote:

"Residential ovens would probably need fans to achieve the same
accuracy but that would be more expense and noise."

They call them "convection ovens" and they are readily available in
the consumer market in styles that range from toaster ovens to full
ranges.

Thread drift, I'll play. My convection oven automatically knocks 25
degrees off the set point. So I select "auto convection bake" and "375",
then when I press "start" it resets to "350."

Is that typical, and what the hell is with that, anyway? (Maybe some day
I'll RTFM.)

On 2/14/2011 10:20 PM, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
wrote:

"Residential ovens would probably need fans to achieve the same
accuracy but that would be more expense and noise."

They call them "convection ovens" and they are readily available in
the consumer market in styles that range from toaster ovens to full
ranges.

Thread drift, I'll play. My convection oven automatically knocks 25
degrees off the set point. So I select "auto convection bake" and "375",
then when I press "start" it resets to "350."

Is that typical, and what the hell is with that, anyway? (Maybe some day
I'll RTFM.)
I've had two convection ovens, one years ago and one recent.
Neither auto set the temp back 25 degrees, but their manufacturers,
and most manufacturers, for that matter, say to set it back 25
degrees because convection cooks faster, whatever that all means.
And, why is it always 25 .... why not 30 or 20?

On 2011-02-15, Art Todesco wrote:

I've had two convection ovens, one years ago and one recent.
Neither auto set the temp back 25 degrees, but their manufacturers,
and most manufacturers, for that matter, say to set it back 25
degrees because convection cooks faster, whatever that all means.
And, why is it always 25 .... why not 30 or 20?

At a small cooking school I attended, we had commercial convection
ovens. The instructor said they baked at 50 F deg hotter. No doubt
all ovens are different.

nb

On Feb 14, 11:22*am, Chip C wrote:
On Feb 14, 10:19*am, Cindy Hamilton
wrote:

On Feb 13, 11:27*pm, Van wrote:

I mean the average residential oven. *I've never seen one with a temp
gauge. *Is it because the oven manufacturers don't want you to know
how inaccurate their ovens are compared with the setting on the knob?

Probably because consumers aren't interested in paying for it.

At the risk of sounding sexist, women don't want that much
information.

Gosh, don't they understand that the success or failure of a roast
depends on sampling temperature to three significant figures every 30
seconds for two hours? Don't they understand that having more numbers
in front of them validates their intellect?

Next you'll tell me that many of them don't know what power factor
their fridge is running at or what perils await if the counter outlets
are installed ground-pin-down. They sure are lucky they've got us
around. Now excuse me, I see a switch plate that doesn't have its
screw slots lined up. Hey, did you move my tools? I've been keeping
them right here on the counter next to the sink.

Old recipes often refer just to a "slow" oven or a "fast" oven.

For "fast" you opened the draught and threw in some coal. Even more if
someone was drawing hot water.

Hot water? You had hot water? We had to boil it on the stove!

Just so we could get cleaned up to walk to school uphill.
And walk uphill home again.

Cindy Hamilton

On Feb 15, 10:11*am, notbob wrote:
On 2011-02-15, Art Todesco wrote:

I've had two convection ovens, one years ago and one recent.
Neither auto set the temp back 25 degrees, but their manufacturers,
and *most manufacturers, for that matter, say to set it back 25
degrees because convection cooks faster, whatever that all means.
And, why is it always 25 .... why not 30 or 20?

At a small cooking school I attended, we had commercial convection
ovens. *The instructor said they baked at 50 F deg hotter. *No doubt
all ovens are different.

nb *

"The instructor said they baked at 50 F deg hotter"

What does that mean?

Does it mean that the internal temperature of the oven was 50 degrees
hotter than the setting or that they *acted* as if the internal
temperature of the oven was 50 degrees hotter than the setting or that
the setting had to be 50 degrees lower than what the recipe called
for?

On Mon, 14 Feb 2011 10:09:36 -0500, "
wrote:

On 2/13/2011 11:36 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 2/13/2011 10:27 PM, Van wrote:
I mean the average residential oven. I've never seen one with a temp
gauge. Is it because the oven manufacturers don't want you to know
how inaccurate their ovens are compared with the setting on the knob?

Don't the newer digital readout stoves indicate oven temperature? I've
never owned one but it only seems to be a logical feature to include.

TDD

We had a fairly new GE wall oven with digital therm. It was about 25
degrees off....there is a calibration maneuver, but with frequent power
outages it was a pain to reset the stupid thing. The engineers who
design appliances nowadays are doofusses who have never used a home
appliance. My Kenmore washer, when set to "hot", squirts hot on and off
to "save" energy. We kept the hwh set to "very warm", so the hot that
the washer was trying to control wasn't really hot, but luke-warm.

When I got my first replacement electric water heater, it was fine
afaicr. When I got the second one (perhaps unnecessarily), 5 years
ago, it was not hot, so I set the temp up a tiny bit twice, and it was
hotter. But still not so hot I could burn myself. I likeed that, and
couldnt' decide whether to make it hotter still.

Used to be one could adjust it without taking off the cover plate, but
to keep the foam panel without holes, now the two screws, the cover,
and the foam has to come out.

When I had to wash some dishes by hand, it suddenly occurred to me the
water wasn't hot enough. Plus I already knew that if the bath water
wasn't hot enough, once it was half full, the hot water couldn't
correct that.

I think the guy I bought the hosue from recommended 140 and said it
washed dishes better that way (even though the dishwasher has a
heater. This was discussed here before, but I didn't mention the wh
temp. )

Current washer has "auto fill", and apparently weighs the load to
determine water level. If you open the lid at any point during the
cycle, it will automatically fill up to max level. Stupid, stupid, stupid!

That is stupid. I once found a washing machine, spent about 90
minutes fixing it, most of that time disassembling and repairing the
lid switch. After I had the lid switch repaired, I stuck a paper wad
in the switch so the lid always seemed to be closed. I guess I coudl
have just bypassed the switch!

I do whole cycles with the lid open. I'm old enough not to stick my
arm in.

On Mon, 14 Feb 2011 11:19:02 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 2/14/2011 9:09 AM, wrote:
On 2/13/2011 11:36 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 2/13/2011 10:27 PM, Van wrote:
I mean the average residential oven. I've never seen one with a temp
gauge. Is it because the oven manufacturers don't want you to know
how inaccurate their ovens are compared with the setting on the knob?

Don't the newer digital readout stoves indicate oven temperature? I've
never owned one but it only seems to be a logical feature to include.

TDD

We had a fairly new GE wall oven with digital therm. It was about 25
degrees off....there is a calibration maneuver, but with frequent power
outages it was a pain to reset the stupid thing. The engineers who
design appliances nowadays are doofusses who have never used a home
appliance. My Kenmore washer, when set to "hot", squirts hot on and off
to "save" energy. We kept the hwh set to "very warm", so the hot that
the washer was trying to control wasn't really hot, but luke-warm.

Current washer has "auto fill", and apparently weighs the load to
determine water level. If you open the lid at any point during the
cycle, it will automatically fill up to max level. Stupid, stupid, stupid!

It's those doofus engineers who have a special degree from Doofus U. :-)

I thought you were the Dean of Dufas U. Is that different from
Doofus U., rah rah?

TDD

On Feb 14, 1:07*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
The prefix "Pre" means "means earlier or before" therefore pre-heating
means "before heating".

"Pre-" is commonly used two different ways in the English language.

1) Pre-x means "before x". (pre-dawn, prepubescent)
2) Pre-x means "do x before (and usually facilitating) something
else." (predefine, pre-drill, pre-heat)

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pre

On 2/15/2011 3:43 PM, mm wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2011 11:19:02 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 2/14/2011 9:09 AM, wrote:
On 2/13/2011 11:36 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 2/13/2011 10:27 PM, Van wrote:
I mean the average residential oven. I've never seen one with a temp
gauge. Is it because the oven manufacturers don't want you to know
how inaccurate their ovens are compared with the setting on the knob?

Don't the newer digital readout stoves indicate oven temperature? I've
never owned one but it only seems to be a logical feature to include.

TDD

We had a fairly new GE wall oven with digital therm. It was about 25
degrees off....there is a calibration maneuver, but with frequent power
outages it was a pain to reset the stupid thing. The engineers who
design appliances nowadays are doofusses who have never used a home
appliance. My Kenmore washer, when set to "hot", squirts hot on and off
to "save" energy. We kept the hwh set to "very warm", so the hot that
the washer was trying to control wasn't really hot, but luke-warm.

Current washer has "auto fill", and apparently weighs the load to
determine water level. If you open the lid at any point during the
cycle, it will automatically fill up to max level. Stupid, stupid, stupid!

It's those doofus engineers who have a special degree from Doofus U. :-)

I thought you were the Dean of Dufas U. Is that different from
Doofus U., rah rah?


No silly, "Dufas" is a proper name, "doofus" is an adjective. :-)

TDD

?
"Art Todesco" wrote

Thread drift, I'll play. My convection oven automatically knocks 25
degrees off the set point. So I select "auto convection bake" and "375",
then when I press "start" it resets to "350."

Is that typical, and what the hell is with that, anyway? (Maybe some day
I'll RTFM.)
I've had two convection ovens, one years ago and one recent. Neither auto
set the temp back 25 degrees, but their manufacturers, and most
manufacturers, for that matter, say to set it back 25 degrees because
convection cooks faster, whatever that all means. And, why is it always 25
.... why not 30 or 20?

Rule of thumb that I've heard is 25 - 25. Twenty five degrees cooler for
25% less time to equal a conventional oven. My brand though, gives
temperatures for cooking meat higher than most. We like the results too.
Most do roast beef at 325 to 350. We do everything at 400 or higher on
convection. Great results!

?
"Cindy Hamilton" wrote

For "fast" you opened the draught and threw in some coal. Even more if
someone was drawing hot water.

Hot water? You had hot water? We had to boil it on the stove!


You had a stove? We had to rub two rocks together to make heat to cook.
Took hours to make a cup of tea.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

?
"Cindy Hamilton" wrote

For "fast" you opened the draught and threw in some coal. Even more if
someone was drawing hot water.

Hot water? You had hot water? We had to boil it on the stove!


You had a stove? We had to rub two rocks together to make heat to cook.
Took hours to make a cup of tea.

You had rocks? We had to pound sand until it turned into a rock.
Took hours to make a rock.

--
Tony Sivori
Due to spam, I'm filtering all Google Groups posters.

Tony Sivori wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:

?
"Cindy Hamilton" wrote

For "fast" you opened the draught and threw in some coal. Even
more if someone was drawing hot water.

Hot water? You had hot water? We had to boil it on the stove!


You had a stove? We had to rub two rocks together to make heat to
cook. Took hours to make a cup of tea.

You had rocks? We had to pound sand until it turned into a rock.
Took hours to make a rock.

you had sand? we had to grind 2 rocks together to make sand.

On Feb 16, 8:42*am, Tony Sivori wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
?
"Cindy Hamilton" wrote

For "fast" you opened the draught and threw in some coal. Even more if
someone was drawing hot water.

Hot water? *You had hot water? *We had to boil it on the stove!

You had a stove? *We had to rub two rocks together to make heat to cook.
Took hours to make a cup of tea.

You had rocks? We had to pound sand until it turned into a rock.
Took hours to make a rock.

--
Tony Sivori
Due to spam, I'm filtering all Google Groups posters.

You had hours?

We had to pound minutes until they turned in hours.

Took hours to make an hour.

In article
,
DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Feb 15, 10:11*am, notbob wrote:
On 2011-02-15, Art Todesco wrote:

I've had two convection ovens, one years ago and one recent.
Neither auto set the temp back 25 degrees, but their manufacturers,
and *most manufacturers, for that matter, say to set it back 25
degrees because convection cooks faster, whatever that all means.
And, why is it always 25 .... why not 30 or 20?

At a small cooking school I attended, we had commercial convection
ovens. *The instructor said they baked at 50 F deg hotter. *No doubt
all ovens are different.

nb *

"The instructor said they baked at 50 F deg hotter"

What does that mean?

Does it mean that the internal temperature of the oven was 50 degrees
hotter than the setting or that they *acted* as if the internal
temperature of the oven was 50 degrees hotter than the setting or that
the setting had to be 50 degrees lower than what the recipe called
for?

Must be the wind chill factor.