1) My next door neighbor had a new AC put in and they replaced the
cement pad the condenser sat on with a plastic one. Is there any point
to removing the cement one if it's in one piece?
Later I saw a picture of the underside of a plastic pads and
except for some ribs, it's hollow and has no bottom. Doesn't that
mean it will slowly sink into the ground and isn't that bad?
My own AC condenser unit over the last 31 years has moved 6 or 8
inches to the right, until it hangs off the edge the pad. Was there
any way to stop that in the first place? Screw it to the pad? Later
on? I was afraid of causing a leak if I pushed it back.


2) When using a gravity feed condensate drain line, Goodman wants a
trap in the line. I don't have one now. Is this to seal heated air
in the furnace and supply ducts when in heating mode. Or to keep
outside air out?


3) Do people really use a secondary drain pan in case the first drain
plugs up? Or is it just a secondary drain from the same pan? If a
pan, where do they put this pan? (I read that it is required by code
some places.)
http://www.alpinehomeair.com/related...%20Install.pdf

4) It also says in the url above:

["If the uncased coil is to be installed on top of a gas furnace,
allow enough space between the top to the furnace and the
bottom of the plastic coil drain pan to have a free flow of air.]

"A minimum of 2.0" distance from the top of the furnace and
the bottom of the coil pan is required. The coil should be installed
with the line set and drain openings to the front of the
furnace."

Does this bit aobut the openings refer only to gas? I don't think so.
For oil, is it necessary to have the openings at the front, and why?
They're at the side now and work much better there afaic. In the
front, the flue will be in the way of the condensate drain pipe and in
the way if I want to take off the cover and look inside or clean the
evaporator area. But my neighbor with the new furnace/ac has them at
the front (with no access door iirc, and her house is the mirror image
of mine, so the plastic condensate pipe goes the other direction and
doesn't need to pass the hot flue).

Thanks a lot.
5) A cased evaporator is listed as having a "High-quality post-paint
cabinet". What does post-paint mean? Googling didn't help.

?
"mm" wrote in message
...
1) My next door neighbor had a new AC put in and they replaced the
cement pad the condenser sat on with a plastic one. Is there any point
to removing the cement one if it's in one piece?

Seems silly to me. Lots of work for nothing.


Later I saw a picture of the underside of a plastic pads and
except for some ribs, it's hollow and has no bottom. Doesn't that
mean it will slowly sink into the ground and isn't that bad?

I guess that would depend on soil conditions, etc. It is far easier than
pouring concrete though, if it works as well. I wonder if it has any
anti-vibration qualities built in.


My own AC condenser unit over the last 31 years has moved 6 or 8
inches to the right, until it hangs off the edge the pad. Was there
any way to stop that in the first place? Screw it to the pad? Later
on? I was afraid of causing a leak if I pushed it back.

Could have been anchor a few different ways.



2) When using a gravity feed condensate drain line, Goodman wants a
trap in the line. I don't have one now. Is this to seal heated air
in the furnace and supply ducts when in heating mode. Or to keep
outside air out?

Keeps creepy crawly bugs out.



3) Do people really use a secondary drain pan in case the first drain
plugs up? Or is it just a secondary drain from the same pan? If a
pan, where do they put this pan? (I read that it is required by code
some places.)
http://www.alpinehomeair.com/related...%20Install.pdf

Seems like a good idea to prevent damage. Plugged drains is a common
problem and they can cause damage in ceilings, floors, etc. .

I don't know about 4 and 5.

On Jan 30, 11:17*am, mm wrote:
1) My next door neighbor had a new AC put in and they replaced the
cement pad the condenser sat on with a plastic one. Is there any point
to removing the cement one if it's in one piece? * * * *
* * Later I saw a picture of the underside of a plastic pads and
except for some ribs, it's hollow and has no bottom. *Doesn't that
mean it will slowly sink into the ground and isn't that bad?

Interesting point. The ribs as I recall are spaced continuosly about
3" apart, forming a checkerboard pattern on the bottom. How easy
that can sink into the soil, I don't know for sure, but it seems
possible
if the soil is loose enough. But, sinkage of pads has been a problem
forever, even with a 2" poured concrete one. If you want to really
solve it once and for all and you expect to live there a long time,
I'd
consider getting a couple of small sona tubes, dig footers with a
post hole digger, fill with concrete and then set the plastic base
on those.


* * My own AC condenser unit over the last 31 years has moved 6 or 8
inches to the right, until it hangs off the edge the pad. *Was there
any way to stop that in the first place? *Screw it to the pad? *Later
on? *I was afraid of causing a leak if I pushed it back.

I know in some hurricane prone parts they recommend screwing AC
units down, but I think that is more for very exposed units. IF the
base
stays level, it shouldn't go anywhere. And if the base doesn't, then
it's still going to have potential problems, ie sinking, tilting,
whether
screwed down or not.



2) When using a gravity feed condensate drain line, Goodman wants a
trap in the line. I don't have one now. * Is this to seal heated air
in the furnace and supply ducts when in heating mode. *Or to keep
outside air out?

I would guess that it's to keep the pressurized, conditioned air in.



3) Do people really use a secondary drain pan in case the first drain
plugs up? *Or is it just a secondary drain from the same pan? *If a
pan, where do they put this pan? *(I read that it is required by code
some places.)http://www.alpinehomeair.com/related...%20Install.pdf

I thhink there are 2 seperate things here. A pan can and should be
put
under the whole furnace or AC handler to catch leaking water if the
unit
is anywhere that it will cause damage, eg in an attic.

The secondary drain from the coils is one that is slightly higher than
the
first and is used to route water in case the first one gets clogged.
If
you use the pan under the furnace, you can run the second drain to it.
That's ideal because it's supposed to be routed somewhere where
you will eventually see it, realize it's a problem, and fix it.
Putting one
of those $10 alarms in the pan is a good idea too.




4) It also says in the url above:

["If the uncased coil is to be installed on top of a gas furnace,
allow enough space between the top to the furnace and the
bottom of the plastic coil drain pan to have a free flow of air.]

"A minimum of 2.0" distance from the top of the furnace and
the bottom of the coil pan is required. *The coil should be installed
with the line set and drain openings to the front of the
furnace."

Does this bit aobut the openings refer only to gas? *I don't think so.
For oil, is it necessary to have the openings at the front, and why?
They're at the side now and work much better there afaic.

My old coils came out the side too. New ones with the coils already
encased come out the front, at least in the ones I've seen. That
means
the two choices are with the lines coming out the front or turn it
around
and they come out the back. Of those choices, the most logical in
most cases is to have them come out front.

In the
front, the flue will be in the way of the condensate drain pipe and in
the way if I want to take off the cover and look inside or clean the
evaporator area. * But my neighbor with the new furnace/ac has them at
the front (with no access door iirc, and her house is the mirror image
of mine, so the plastic condensate pipe goes the other direction and
doesn't need to pass the hot flue).


The Rheem one I have that is cased I don't think is meant to be taken
apart either. Even if you could take a cover off say one side, the
stuff
is packed in there so tight now with an N coil that I don't think you
have
clearance to be able to clean. Better get a decent filter and keep
dirt
out.

You should be able to route the condensate line without hitting the
flue.
Why not get a 90%+ and then you only have some 2" PVC to worry
about, not to mention the higher efficiency.





Thanks a lot.
5) A cased evaporator is listed as having a "High-quality post-paint
cabinet". *What does post-paint mean? * Googling didn't help.

No clue there. But in most cases, cased is the way to go. It also
takes
care of the spacing reqt between coil drain and furnace, etc. You
just
sit it on top of the furnace and you're done.

mm wrote:
1) My next door neighbor had a new AC put in and they replaced the
cement pad the condenser sat on with a plastic one. Is there any point
to removing the cement one if it's in one piece?
Later I saw a picture of the underside of a plastic pads and
except for some ribs, it's hollow and has no bottom. Doesn't that
mean it will slowly sink into the ground and isn't that bad?
My own AC condenser unit over the last 31 years has moved 6 or 8
inches to the right, until it hangs off the edge the pad. Was there
any way to stop that in the first place? Screw it to the pad? Later
on? I was afraid of causing a leak if I pushed it back.

It'll probably start to leak sooner or later if you don't move it back.
Eventually, the copper tubes will be the only think stopping it.

Something as simple as double stick foam tape might keep it from wandering.
Screwing it to the pad certainly will.

mm wrote:
1) My next door neighbor had a new AC put in and they replaced the
cement pad the condenser sat on with a plastic one. Is there any point
to removing the cement one if it's in one piece?
Later I saw a picture of the underside of a plastic pads and
except for some ribs, it's hollow and has no bottom. Doesn't that
mean it will slowly sink into the ground and isn't that bad?
My own AC condenser unit over the last 31 years has moved 6 or 8
inches to the right, until it hangs off the edge the pad. Was there
any way to stop that in the first place? Screw it to the pad? Later
on? I was afraid of causing a leak if I pushed it back.

The original concrete pad may not have been big enough for the new unit.



3) Do people really use a secondary drain pan in case the first drain
plugs up? Or is it just a secondary drain from the same pan? If a
pan, where do they put this pan? (I read that it is required by code
some places.)
http://www.alpinehomeair.com/related...%20Install.pdf

In all the installations I've seen - and admittedly not that many - the
secondary drain is used as a fail-safe in case the first drain becomes
clogged (it almost always will). This second drain is connected to a pan
located UNDER the base unit. When the first drain becomes clogged,
condensate will overflow to the second pan and drain to somewhere it can be
seen, often to the house's soffit.

5) A cased evaporator is listed as having a "High-quality post-paint
cabinet". What does post-paint mean? Googling didn't help.

Sounds like mumbo-jumbo. On its face it says the cabinet went on after the
paint. Call 'em and ask; the rest of us would like to know too.

On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 12:21:19 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

?
"mm" wrote in message
.. .
1) My next door neighbor had a new AC put in and they replaced the
cement pad the condenser sat on with a plastic one. Is there any point
to removing the cement one if it's in one piece?

Seems silly to me. Lots of work for nothing.

I guess they charged him for it and he agreed to it. He doesn't
consult with me.

Later I saw a picture of the underside of a plastic pads and
except for some ribs, it's hollow and has no bottom. Doesn't that
mean it will slowly sink into the ground and isn't that bad?

I guess that would depend on soil conditions, etc. It is far easier than
pouring concrete though, if it works as well. I wonder if it has any
anti-vibration qualities built in.

I think it would, but I've never heard any noise from the condenser
anyhow.

My own AC condenser unit over the last 31 years has moved 6 or 8
inches to the right, until it hangs off the edge the pad. Was there
any way to stop that in the first place? Screw it to the pad? Later
on? I was afraid of causing a leak if I pushed it back.

Could have been anchor a few different ways.

So it won't cause harm to screw it down? If there is no reason not
to do it, I think I will put one or two screws in. Otherwise I'll
feel stupid when the next one moves too.

2) When using a gravity feed condensate drain line, Goodman wants a
trap in the line. I don't have one now. Is this to seal heated air
in the furnace and supply ducts when in heating mode. Or to keep
outside air out?

Keeps creepy crawly bugs out.

Aha. That makes sense. When I take it apart, I'll check if there are
any bugs in there. I have spiders in the basement sometimes, but I
don't see any cobwebs by the sump, where the AC drain drains.

3) Do people really use a secondary drain pan in case the first drain
plugs up? Or is it just a secondary drain from the same pan? If a
pan, where do they put this pan? (I read that it is required by code
some places.)
http://www.alpinehomeair.com/related...%20Install.pdf

Seems like a good idea to prevent damage. Plugged drains is a common
problem and they can cause damage in ceilings, floors, etc. .

I get it now.

I don't know about 4 and 5.

Thanks a lot.

On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 10:09:59 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Jan 30, 11:17*am, mm wrote:
1) My next door neighbor had a new AC put in and they replaced the
cement pad the condenser sat on with a plastic one. Is there any point
to removing the cement one if it's in one piece? * * * *
* * Later I saw a picture of the underside of a plastic pads and
except for some ribs, it's hollow and has no bottom. *Doesn't that
mean it will slowly sink into the ground and isn't that bad?

Interesting point. The ribs as I recall are spaced continuosly about
3" apart, forming a checkerboard pattern on the bottom. How easy
that can sink into the soil, I don't know for sure, but it seems
possible if the soil is loose enough.

FWIW, that part of my neighbor's yard is a man-made hill, I think. But
by now the dirt should have settled.

But, sinkage of pads has been a problem
forever, even with a 2" poured concrete one. If you want to really
solve it once and for all and you expect to live there a long time,
I'd
consider getting a couple of small sona tubes, dig footers with a
post hole digger, fill with concrete and then set the plastic base
on those.

Hehehe. Pretty sure my pad hasn't moved or sunk since I've been here.

* * My own AC condenser unit over the last 31 years has moved 6 or 8
inches to the right, until it hangs off the edge the pad. *Was there
any way to stop that in the first place? *Screw it to the pad? *Later
on? *I was afraid of causing a leak if I pushed it back.

I know in some hurricane prone parts they recommend screwing AC
units down, but I think that is more for very exposed units. IF the
base
stays level, it shouldn't go anywhere. And if the base doesn't, then
it's still going to have potential problems, ie sinking, tilting,
whether screwed down or not.

So there is little or no down-side to screwing it down? If there is
no reason not to do it, I think I will put one or two screws in.
Otherwise I'll feel stupid when the next one moves too.

Mine has always seemed level to me, but maybe there is tilt I can't
see.

2) When using a gravity feed condensate drain line, Goodman wants a
trap in the line. I don't have one now. * Is this to seal heated air
in the furnace and supply ducts when in heating mode. *Or to keep
outside air out?

I would guess that it's to keep the pressurized, conditioned air in.


3) Do people really use a secondary drain pan in case the first drain
plugs up? *Or is it just a secondary drain from the same pan? *If a
pan, where do they put this pan? *(I read that it is required by code
some places.)http://www.alpinehomeair.com/related...%20Install.pdf

I thhink there are 2 seperate things here. A pan can and should be
put
under the whole furnace or AC handler to catch leaking water if the
unit
is anywhere that it will cause damage, eg in an attic.

The secondary drain from the coils is one that is slightly higher than
the
first and is used to route water in case the first one gets clogged.
If
you use the pan under the furnace, you can run the second drain to it.
That's ideal because it's supposed to be routed somewhere where
you will eventually see it, realize it's a problem, and fix it.
Putting one of those $10 alarms in the pan is a good idea too.

Now I understand. I'm okay here.

4) It also says in the url above:

["If the uncased coil is to be installed on top of a gas furnace,
allow enough space between the top to the furnace and the
bottom of the plastic coil drain pan to have a free flow of air.]

"A minimum of 2.0" distance from the top of the furnace and
the bottom of the coil pan is required. *The coil should be installed
with the line set and drain openings to the front of the
furnace."

Does this bit aobut the openings refer only to gas? *I don't think so.
For oil, is it necessary to have the openings at the front, and why?
They're at the side now and work much better there afaic.

My old coils came out the side too. New ones with the coils already
encased come out the front, at least in the ones I've seen. That

Do you think that means there is room from a bigger coil that way? I
noticed that the coils they have for sale come with adapter plates, to
seal the outer perimeter at the bottom in case the coil case is wider
than the furnace. Not pretty but maybe I could use that to point the
openings sideways.

means
the two choices are with the lines coming out the front or turn it
around
and they come out the back. Of those choices, the most logical in
most cases is to have them come out front.

Currently I only have 13.5 inches between the back and the wall. It
might increase an inch or two if the next furnace is smaller, but none
of them are much smaller and some might be an inch bigger. At 13.5, I
can't even slide myself back there. and if I could, my head couldn't
get past the lines, and my face and arms would be too close to see or
do anything,


In the
front, the flue will be in the way of the condensate drain pipe and in
the way if I want to take off the cover and look inside or clean the
evaporator area. * But my neighbor with the new furnace/ac has them at
the front (with no access door iirc, and her house is the mirror image
of mine, so the plastic condensate pipe goes the other direction and
doesn't need to pass the hot flue).


The Rheem one I have that is cased I don't think is meant to be taken
apart either. Even if you could take a cover off say one side, the
stuff
is packed in there so tight now with an N coil that I don't think you
have
clearance to be able to clean.

Well, both the Goodman and the Aspen cased coils that alpine sells
have panels to the left of the openings that come off. They go top to
bottom, about 60% across the face.

I thought all there would be by now are N coils but both of these are
still A-coils.

OTOH, the website showed 6 photos of the Goodman cased coil, including
from above and below, and it seemed like there was a double wall. But
surely they wouldn't call it an access panel if the insulation and
second wall didn't come out too.

When I couldn't get the condensate to drain for a couple years I
really wanted an access door. I cut a small hole, which I later taped
up. I didnt' have nerve enough to make a big hole.** Afraid I would
hit the coil.

Better get a decent filter and keep dirt out.

Okay. But through my small hole, I saw that it was clean when I had
that condensate problem. Yesterday I looked in the duct right above
the evaporator and it's quite clean, and I'll check what the evap
looks like when I take everything apart.

You should be able to route the condensate line without hitting the
flue.
Why not get a 90%+ and then you only have some 2" PVC to worry
about, not to mention the higher efficiency.

I have no gas available. Only oil.


Thanks a lot.
5) A cased evaporator is listed as having a "High-quality post-paint
cabinet". *What does post-paint mean? * Googling didn't help.

No clue there. But in most cases, cased is the way to go. It also
takes
care of the spacing reqt between coil drain and furnace, etc. You
just
sit it on top of the furnace and you're done.

Good to here. BTW, I recently learned that with an oil furnace one
needs a metal pan or a high-temp plastic pan. The Goodman cased coils
come with a high temp pan it seems (I will verify that) but the Aspen
(which they imply is lower cost ("non-name brand") even though the
costs are about the same.), the Aspen don't have that and you have to
remember to buy a high-temp pan, (or, conceivably, if they're hard to
replace in a cased coil, you just can't use Aspen).

**I've told this story here once before. The condensate had gone
down the pvc pipe to the sump very well for 5 or 10 years, whenever I
used the AC. One year it started dribbling out the bottom of the
furnace. I looked inside and it looked clean. I cut or broke the
threaded pvc off, and the hole into the plenum wasn't clogged, as far
as my little finger could tell. I blew into the PVC and it didn't
seeme clogged. I ran a lot of water throught the PVC, from the
laundry sink, and it poured out like there was no obstruction, but I
thought, Maybe I flushed something out (even though I didn't really
think so).

So I reassembled it and it worked no better! A year or two later I
rearranged the PVC. It had come out, gone down an inch or two**, then
horizontally to the wall, down the wall to the floor, across the
floor, then from the wall to the sump. I changed it to go down about
3 feet instead of 2 inches, and then to the wall, down another foot to
the floor and to the sump like before. After that it worked fine
again. So you might say, that's how it should have been all along.
Then wy did it work fine for the first 10 years!


Thanks a lot.

On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 10:50:57 -0800, "Bob F"
wrote:

mm wrote:
1) My next door neighbor had a new AC put in and they replaced the
cement pad the condenser sat on with a plastic one. Is there any point
to removing the cement one if it's in one piece?
Later I saw a picture of the underside of a plastic pads and
except for some ribs, it's hollow and has no bottom. Doesn't that
mean it will slowly sink into the ground and isn't that bad?
My own AC condenser unit over the last 31 years has moved 6 or 8
inches to the right, until it hangs off the edge the pad. Was there
any way to stop that in the first place? Screw it to the pad? Later
on? I was afraid of causing a leak if I pushed it back.

It'll probably start to leak sooner or later if you don't move it back.
Eventually, the copper tubes will be the only think stopping it.

Something as simple as double stick foam tape might keep it from wandering.
Screwing it to the pad certainly will.

I'll screw it to the pad then, unless you think that will harm
something. (And you don't seem to think that.)

Thanks a lot.

On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 15:35:01 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

mm wrote:
1) My next door neighbor had a new AC put in and they replaced the
cement pad the condenser sat on with a plastic one. Is there any point
to removing the cement one if it's in one piece?
Later I saw a picture of the underside of a plastic pads and
except for some ribs, it's hollow and has no bottom. Doesn't that
mean it will slowly sink into the ground and isn't that bad?
My own AC condenser unit over the last 31 years has moved 6 or 8
inches to the right, until it hangs off the edge the pad. Was there
any way to stop that in the first place? Screw it to the pad? Later
on? I was afraid of causing a leak if I pushed it back.

The original concrete pad may not have been big enough for the new unit.

No, it was plenty big. While it was under the original warranty, the
original owner had some leak they coudln't fix, so 25 more years ago,
they put in an extra-large compressor. What a large comparessor has
to do with a leak I don't know, but that's what the owner told me.
That fit on the original pad and this one is smaller than that.

3) Do people really use a secondary drain pan in case the first drain
plugs up? Or is it just a secondary drain from the same pan? If a
pan, where do they put this pan? (I read that it is required by code
some places.)
http://www.alpinehomeair.com/related...%20Install.pdf

In all the installations I've seen - and admittedly not that many - the
secondary drain is used as a fail-safe in case the first drain becomes
clogged (it almost always will). This second drain is connected to a pan
located UNDER the base unit. When the first drain becomes clogged,
condensate will overflow to the second pan and drain to somewhere it can be
seen, often to the house's soffit.

Now that you mention it, I have seen that, at my brother's old house I
bet.

Of course my furnace is in the basement. The AC condensate just ran
through the pvc to the sump for years, but for a year or two, the few
days I used it, it dribbled out the bottom of the furnace. One of
those times, the water heater started to leak but I thought the other
water just hadn't dried yet!

5) A cased evaporator is listed as having a "High-quality post-paint
cabinet". What does post-paint mean? Googling didn't help.

Sounds like mumbo-jumbo. On its face it says the cabinet went on after the
paint.

Yeah, it does.

Call 'em and ask; the rest of us would like to know too.

What are the odds I could find someone who knows! Very small.

Thanks alot.

1) My next door neighbor had a new AC put in and they
replaced the
cement pad the condenser sat on with a plastic one. Is there
any point
to removing the cement one if it's in one piece?

CY: Not much.

Later I saw a picture of the underside of a plastic pads
and
except for some ribs, it's hollow and has no bottom.
Doesn't that
mean it will slowly sink into the ground and isn't that bad?

CY: Yes, it will sink, and that's bad. I don't know why they
make em hollow.

My own AC condenser unit over the last 31 years has
moved 6 or 8
inches to the right, until it hangs off the edge the pad.
Was there
any way to stop that in the first place? Screw it to the
pad? Later
on? I was afraid of causing a leak if I pushed it back.

CY: Screw it to the pad. Not much to be done, now.

2) When using a gravity feed condensate drain line, Goodman
wants a
trap in the line. I don't have one now. Is this to seal
heated air
in the furnace and supply ducts when in heating mode. Or to
keep
outside air out?

CY: The rushing air inside the furnace can make a venturi
effect. It sucks in through the drain tube. This prevents
water from draining, and can eventually result in water
getting into the blower, etc. Or so I'm told.


3) Do people really use a secondary drain pan in case the
first drain
plugs up? Or is it just a secondary drain from the same
pan? If a
pan, where do they put this pan? (I read that it is
required by code
some places.)
http://www.alpinehomeair.com/related...%20Install.pdf

CY: The secondary drain "should" go some where that is
obviously not right. Dripping over the front door, or some
place obvious. The goal being that when the secondary is
dripping, the owner knows to call for service.


4) It also says in the url above:

["If the uncased coil is to be installed on top of a gas
furnace,
allow enough space between the top to the furnace and the
bottom of the plastic coil drain pan to have a free flow of
air.]

"A minimum of 2.0" distance from the top of the furnace and
the bottom of the coil pan is required. The coil should be
installed
with the line set and drain openings to the front of the
furnace."

Does this bit aobut the openings refer only to gas? I don't
think so.

CY: The distance for oil furnace is greater. More like 5 to
9 inches. Been a while since I put AC over an oil furnace.


For oil, is it necessary to have the openings at the front,
and why?
They're at the side now and work much better there afaic. In
the
front, the flue will be in the way of the condensate drain
pipe and in
the way if I want to take off the cover and look inside or
clean the
evaporator area.

CY: They should be accessable. Whichever works best.

But my neighbor with the new furnace/ac has them at
the front (with no access door iirc, and her house is the
mirror image
of mine, so the plastic condensate pipe goes the other
direction and
doesn't need to pass the hot flue).

Thanks a lot.
5) A cased evaporator is listed as having a "High-quality
post-paint
cabinet". What does post-paint mean? Googling didn't
help.

CY: Probably refers to enamel finish. Either that, or it's
the same color as the hitching post that Wyatt Earp ties his
horse, Paint. When he goes to town, that is.

The spacing is in case the furnace has a "hot spot" and
blows hotter air. Might damage the coil, melt plastic, etc.
Which is why the oil furnace coils have to be higher up.
Hotter heat exchanger.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...


No clue there. But in most cases, cased is the way to go.
It also
takes
care of the spacing reqt between coil drain and furnace,
etc. You
just
sit it on top of the furnace and you're done.

Careful with the screws. Please avoid any tubing that
contains freon. That hissing noise that continues for a long
time. Makes for another version of the stupid feeling.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"mm" wrote in message
...

Could have been anchor a few different ways.

So it won't cause harm to screw it down? If there is no
reason not
to do it, I think I will put one or two screws in.
Otherwise I'll
feel stupid when the next one moves too.

The down side is risking pucture a freon line.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"mm" wrote in message
...

I know in some hurricane prone parts they recommend
screwing AC
units down, but I think that is more for very exposed
units. IF the
base
stays level, it shouldn't go anywhere. And if the base
doesn't, then
it's still going to have potential problems, ie sinking,
tilting,
whether screwed down or not.

So there is little or no down-side to screwing it down? If
there is
no reason not to do it, I think I will put one or two screws
in.
Otherwise I'll feel stupid when the next one moves too.

Mine has always seemed level to me, but maybe there is tilt
I can't
see.

On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 20:47:04 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

The down side is risking pucture a freon line.

I won't do that. IIRC, in my current one there are holes in the
middle of the "legs", the downward pointing dimples in the bottom of
the case, that keep most of the case a little above the pad.

I've drilled holes in car firewalls and the evaporator housing and
having punctured anything yet. (although I did cut a place for a
receptacle, not noticing there was a 3-gang wall switch on the other
side. ) But with this I'll be able to see both sides almost at
the same time. Probably drill from the inside.

On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 10:09:59 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Jan 30, 11:17Â*am, mm wrote:
1) My next door neighbor had a new AC put in and they replaced the
cement pad the condenser sat on with a plastic one. Is there any point
to removing the cement one if it's in one piece? Â* Â* Â* Â*
Â* Â* Later I saw a picture of the underside of a plastic pads and
except for some ribs, it's hollow and has no bottom. Â*Doesn't that
mean it will slowly sink into the ground and isn't that bad?

Interesting point. The ribs as I recall are spaced continuosly about
3" apart, forming a checkerboard pattern on the bottom. How easy
that can sink into the soil, I don't know for sure, but it seems
possible
if the soil is loose enough. But, sinkage of pads has been a problem
forever, even with a 2" poured concrete one. If you want to really
solve it once and for all and you expect to live there a long time,
I'd
consider getting a couple of small sona tubes, dig footers with a
post hole digger, fill with concrete and then set the plastic base
on those.


They used a plastic pad when they put mine in.
About 8 years in I noticed a corner had dropped a couple inches.
A pry bar and some gravel fixed that.
The problem was bad drainage making the ground soft there.
Fixed that too.
Nothing wrong with plastic pads IME.
I don't think my unit weighs more than a couple hundred pounds, if
that.
Have to be pretty heavy before I'd go with footings.

--Vic

On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 19:51:04 -0500, mm
wrote:



So there is little or no down-side to screwing it down? If there is
no reason not to do it, I think I will put one or two screws in.
Otherwise I'll feel stupid when the next one moves too.

Mine has always seemed level to me, but maybe there is tilt I can't
see.


If you don't have a level buy a cheap one and check it.
You should have one to level other things, like appliances.
If the unit is already over the pad edge, and you don't want to move
it, drive a stake or two in the ground flush with it to stop it from
moving further.
If you move it and the pad is level, but it still wanders, you could
just glue some cleats on the pad to stop it.
Don't have to drill or screw.

--Vic

On Jan 30, 7:51*pm, mm wrote:

So there is little or no down-side to screwing it down? * If there is
no reason not to do it, I think I will put one or two screws in.
Otherwise I'll feel stupid when the next one moves too.

I've seen install instructions for securing them where required for
hurricane protection. I never paid any attention to exactly how
though, but since it's apparently required by code in some areas
and installations, you would think they would all have a means of
doing so.


using a gravity feed condensate drain line, Goodman wants a
trap in the line. I don't have one now. * Is this to seal heated air
in the furnace and supply ducts when in heating mode. *Or to keep
outside air out?

I would guess that it's to keep the pressurized, conditioned air in.

3) Do people really use a secondary drain pan in case the first drain
plugs up? *Or is it just a secondary drain from the same pan? *If a
pan, where do they put this pan? *(I read that it is required by code
some places.)http://www.alpinehomeair.com/related...%20Install.pdf

I thhink there are 2 seperate things here. *A pan can and should be
put
under the whole furnace or AC handler to catch leaking water if the
unit
is anywhere that it will cause damage, eg in an attic.

The secondary drain from the coils is one that is slightly higher than
the
first and is used to route water in case the first one gets clogged.
If
you use the pan under the furnace, you can run the second drain to it.
That's ideal because it's supposed to be routed somewhere where
you will eventually see it, realize it's a problem, and fix it.
Putting one of those $10 alarms in the pan is a good idea too.

Now I understand. *I'm okay here.





4) It also says in the url above:

["If the uncased coil is to be installed on top of a gas furnace,
allow enough space between the top to the furnace and the
bottom of the plastic coil drain pan to have a free flow of air.]

"A minimum of 2.0" distance from the top of the furnace and
the bottom of the coil pan is required. *The coil should be installed
with the line set and drain openings to the front of the
furnace."

Does this bit aobut the openings refer only to gas?

That's the letter of what they wrote.



*I don't think so.
For oil, is it necessary to have the openings at the front, and why?

Unless it says otherwise, it sounds like it only applies to gas. Oil
furnaces may have different air flow or design characteristics so
that it doesn't matter. But who knows.... You could call the
manufacturer, but most of them won't answer install questions
from DIY. If you buy an encased coil, this no longer matters.


They're at the side now and work much better there afaic.

I still don;t see the need to try to put it together differently than
the normal installation. If you have a serious clearance problem
then it's one thing. But all I'm hearing so far is the furnace vent
and AC condensate drain lines. Every furnace has those issues
and they appear to be designed to go together easily, with
clearance, etc as built, with the AC lines coming off the front.




My old coils came out the side too. *New ones with the coils already
encased come out the front, at least in the ones I've seen. * That

Do you think that means there is room from a bigger coil that way? *I
noticed that the coils they have for sale come with adapter plates, to
seal the outer perimeter at the bottom in case the coil case is wider
than the furnace. * Not pretty but maybe I could use that to point the
openings sideways

What you're describing is a transition kit, or adaptor if you will,
for use
when you use an encased coil that is larger than the furnace. They
are
used in cases where you need more AC than heat. You could probably
use a similar scheme to allow you to mount it rotated 90 deg. But be
aware that there are restrictions on how gradually you have to taper
the transition so as to maintain smooth airflow. Depending on your
height limitations, that could be a problem.

But it sounds like a lot of work for a reason I'm not clear on. The
furnaces are built to go together easily for most applicationsl. And
today, that seems to be with the AC lines and drains coming out the
front. I don't see why that should present such a problem. Many
furnaces also allow the condensate drain lines for the furnace,
electric, or gas to be reversed to the other side of the unit too.
Should be enough flexibility there to plumb the thing without having
to rotate the coils 90deg.



means
the two choices are with the lines coming out the front or turn it
around
and they come out the back. *Of those choices, the most logical in
most cases is to have them come out front.

Currently I only have 13.5 inches between the back and the wall. It
might increase an inch or two if the next furnace is smaller, but none
of them are much smaller and some might be an inch bigger. *At 13.5, I
can't even slide myself back there. *and if I could, my head couldn't
get past the lines, and my face and arms would be too close to see or
do anything,

In the
front, the flue will be in the way of the condensate drain pipe and in
the way if I want to take off the cover and look inside or clean the
evaporator area. * But my neighbor with the new furnace/ac has them at
the front (with no access door iirc, and her house is the mirror image
of mine, so the plastic condensate pipe goes the other direction and
doesn't need to pass the hot flue).

The Rheem one I have that is cased I don't think is meant to be taken
apart either. *Even if you could take a cover off say one side, the
stuff
is packed in there so tight now with an N coil that I don't think you
have
clearance to be able to clean.

Well, both the Goodman and the Aspen cased coils that alpine sells
have panels to the left of the openings that come off. *They go top to
bottom, about 60% across the face.

I thought all there would be by now are N coils but both of these are
still A-coils. *

OTOH, the website showed 6 photos of the Goodman cased coil, including
from above and below, and it seemed like there was a double wall. *But
surely they wouldn't call it an access panel if the insulation and
second wall didn't come out too.

I don't know about that. I looked at mine and it has a panel that
appears
to come off. But, right behind that is that second panel you talk
about.
And on the Rheem, from looking at it, it did not appear that the inner
panel came off. It appeared to be attached to and part of the coils.
I'd look at the documentation for the coils and see if it says
anything
about how the access panel, cleaning, etc. Or google for cleaning...
And even if that panel came off, if you have dust stuck to the coils
it's not clear to me how well you could clean it with access that is
still going to be very limited.




When I couldn't get the condensate to drain for a couple years I
really wanted an access door. *I cut a small hole, which I later taped
up. *I didnt' have nerve enough to make a big hole.** *Afraid I would
hit the coil.

Better get a decent filter and keep dirt out.

Okay. * But through my small hole, I saw that it was clean when I had
that condensate problem. *Yesterday I looked in the duct right above
the evaporator and it's quite clean, and I'll check what the evap
looks like when I take everything apart.



You should be able to route the condensate line without hitting the
flue.
Why not get a 90%+ and then you only have some 2" PVC to worry
about, not to mention the higher efficiency.

I have no gas available. *Only oil. *



Thanks a lot.
5) A cased evaporator is listed as having a "High-quality post-paint
cabinet". *What does post-paint mean? * Googling didn't help.

No clue there. * But in most cases, cased is the way to go. *It also
takes
care of the spacing reqt between coil drain and furnace, etc. *You
just
sit it on top of the furnace and you're done.

Good to here. *BTW, I recently learned that with an oil furnace one
needs a metal pan or a high-temp plastic pan. *The Goodman cased coils
come with a high temp pan it seems (I will verify that) but the Aspen
(which they imply is lower cost ("non-name brand") even though the
costs are about the same.), the Aspen don't have that and you have to
remember to buy a high-temp pan, (or, conceivably, if they're hard to
replace in a cased coil, you just can't use Aspen).

Seems odd they would include an overflow drain pan that has to go
under the
whole furnace with the coils. Are you sure what you're reading isn't
talking about the regular drain pans that are part of every coil?

mm wrote:

In all the installations I've seen - and admittedly not that many -
the secondary drain is used as a fail-safe in case the first drain
becomes clogged (it almost always will). This second drain is
connected to a pan located UNDER the base unit. When the first drain
becomes clogged, condensate will overflow to the second pan and
drain to somewhere it can be seen, often to the house's soffit.

Now that you mention it, I have seen that, at my brother's old house I
bet.

Of course my furnace is in the basement. The AC condensate just ran
through the pvc to the sump for years, but for a year or two, the few
days I used it, it dribbled out the bottom of the furnace. One of
those times, the water heater started to leak but I thought the other
water just hadn't dried yet!

Ah! Okay. Put a big pan under the whole installation and equip it with a
water alarm (less than $25).


5) A cased evaporator is listed as having a "High-quality post-paint
cabinet". What does post-paint mean? Googling didn't help.

Sounds like mumbo-jumbo. On its face it says the cabinet went on
after the paint.

Yeah, it does.

Call 'em and ask; the rest of us would like to know too.

What are the odds I could find someone who knows! Very small.


No, the telephone operator might very well be the one who coined the phrase.
Or the receptionist. Or the janitor.

Thanks, Vic. I do have a level, but it's always looked so level I
never checked. This week it's been under 6 inches of snow so I can't
check now.

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 00:41:21 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Jan 30, 7:51*pm, mm wrote:

So there is little or no down-side to screwing it down? * If there is
no reason not to do it, I think I will put one or two screws in.
Otherwise I'll feel stupid when the next one moves too.

I've seen install instructions for securing them where required for
hurricane protection.

Great. No hurricanes here but I'll do something to keep it from
moving.

I never paid any attention to exactly how
though, but since it's apparently required by code in some areas
and installations, you would think they would all have a means of
doing so.
....
4) It also says in the url above:

["If the uncased coil is to be installed on top of a gas furnace,
allow enough space between the top to the furnace and the
bottom of the plastic coil drain pan to have a free flow of air.]

"A minimum of 2.0" distance from the top of the furnace and
the bottom of the coil pan is required. *The coil should be installed
with the line set and drain openings to the front of the
furnace."

Does this bit aobut the openings refer only to gas?

That's the letter of what they wrote.



*I don't think so.
For oil, is it necessary to have the openings at the front, and why?

Unless it says otherwise, it sounds like it only applies to gas. Oil
furnaces may have different air flow or design characteristics so
that it doesn't matter. But who knows.... You could call the
manufacturer, but most of them won't answer install questions
from DIY. If you buy an encased coil, this no longer matters.

Well, I'll try, and I'll make a greater effort to see neighbors' new
furnaces.

They're at the side now and work much better there afaic.

I still don;t see the need to try to put it together differently than
the normal installation.

Maybe this is why I'm still single. Maybe an objective opinion would
be that I'm increcredibly picky, but it always seems reasonable to me.
:=)

If you have a serious clearance problem
then it's one thing. But all I'm hearing so far is the furnace vent
and AC condensate drain lines. Every furnace has those issues
and they appear to be designed to go together easily, with
clearance, etc as built, with the AC lines coming off the front.


My old coils came out the side too. *New ones with the coils already
encased come out the front, at least in the ones I've seen. * That

Do you think that means there is room from a bigger coil that way? *I
noticed that the coils they have for sale come with adapter plates, to
seal the outer perimeter at the bottom in case the coil case is wider
than the furnace. * Not pretty but maybe I could use that to point the
openings sideways

What you're describing is a transition kit, or adaptor if you will,
for use
when you use an encased coil that is larger than the furnace. They
are
used in cases where you need more AC than heat. You could probably

Good to know.

use a similar scheme to allow you to mount it rotated 90 deg. But be
aware that there are restrictions on how gradually you have to taper
the transition so as to maintain smooth airflow. Depending on your
height limitations, that could be a problem.

Height is a problem. That's a big reason why I can only install the
smallest simplest non-electric humidifier.

There is an I-beam over part of the furnace that requires a shift
several inches to the right as the duct goes up. That piece starts
about 10 inches above the coil.

But it sounds like a lot of work for a reason I'm not clear on. The
furnaces are built to go together easily for most applicationsl. And
today, that seems to be with the AC lines and drains coming out the
front. I don't see why that should present such a problem. Many
furnaces also allow the condensate drain lines for the furnace,
electric, or gas to be reversed to the other side of the unit too.

That would help. I'll look into that.

Should be enough flexibility there to plumb the thing without having
to rotate the coils 90deg.

I guess part of this is wanting to feel the installation will be
comparitively quick and easy, since I'm still a little scared of doing
most of it myself. I can probably buy my way out of any problems by
paying the guy who will be finishing it to do more, but that's no
comfort now.

I won't be doing this until April or May, but I'll try to let you know
how this part and the rest of it goes then.
..........

I thought all there would be by now are N coils but both of these are
still A-coils. *

OTOH, the website showed 6 photos of the Goodman cased coil, including
from above and below, and it seemed like there was a double wall. *But
surely they wouldn't call it an access panel if the insulation and
second wall didn't come out too.

I don't know about that. I looked at mine and it has a panel that
appears
to come off. But, right behind that is that second panel you talk
about.
And on the Rheem, from looking at it, it did not appear that the inner
panel came off.

ROTFLOL. You're right. The access panel might just give "access" to
another panel. I'm glad you warned me so I don't get surprised when I
get it. IIRC, the first model of the Apollo space ship was like
that, and that's why they only circled the moon instead of landing.

It appeared to be attached to and part of the coils.
I'd look at the documentation for the coils and see if it says
anything
about how the access panel, cleaning, etc. Or google for cleaning...

I'll do that.

And even if that panel came off, if you have dust stuck to the coils
it's not clear to me how well you could clean it with access that is
still going to be very limited.

A vacuum cleaner with the round bristly attachment?

What do people do now when the drain is clogged? If they just go in
through the drain hole, then my drain was never clogged.



....
Good to here. *BTW, I recently learned that with an oil furnace one
needs a metal pan or a high-temp plastic pan. *The Goodman cased coils
come with a high temp pan it seems (I will verify that) but the Aspen
(which they imply is lower cost ("non-name brand") even though the
costs are about the same.), the Aspen don't have that and you have to
remember to buy a high-temp pan, (or, conceivably, if they're hard to
replace in a cased coil, you just can't use Aspen).

Seems odd they would include an overflow drain pan that has to go
under the
whole furnace with the coils. Are you sure what you're reading isn't
talking about the regular drain pans that are part of every coil?

Yes, the regular drain pan. What I meant here was that there was a
pan right under the coil included in the cased coil. With Goodman it
seems they are all high-temp. With Aspen, it seems none of them are.
Elsewhere on a different subpate it said to buy a high-temp pan if you
use oil, to replace the pan that is included in a cased coil.

It made no exception for Goodman, but maybe it is better for them to
be safe than for me to be sorry. In case Goodman would change the kind
of pan it included and they didn't find this one isolated paragraph
and change it.

Thanks again.

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 06:54:13 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

mm wrote:

In all the installations I've seen - and admittedly not that many -
the secondary drain is used as a fail-safe in case the first drain
becomes clogged (it almost always will). This second drain is
connected to a pan located UNDER the base unit. When the first drain
becomes clogged, condensate will overflow to the second pan and
drain to somewhere it can be seen, often to the house's soffit.

Now that you mention it, I have seen that, at my brother's old house I
bet.

Of course my furnace is in the basement. The AC condensate just ran
through the pvc to the sump for years, but for a year or two, the few
days I used it, it dribbled out the bottom of the furnace. One of
those times, the water heater started to leak but I thought the other
water just hadn't dried yet!

Ah! Okay. Put a big pan under the whole installation and equip it with a
water alarm (less than $25).

Good idea. I remember now. The water heater just dribbled for a few
days. If I'd realized it was leaking I coudl have turned off the hot
water, before it all poured out, wetting all my cardboard boxes on the
floor, etc.


5) A cased evaporator is listed as having a "High-quality post-paint
cabinet". What does post-paint mean? Googling didn't help.

Sounds like mumbo-jumbo. On its face it says the cabinet went on
after the paint.

Yeah, it does.

Call 'em and ask; the rest of us would like to know too.

What are the odds I could find someone who knows! Very small.


No, the telephone operator might very well be the one who coined the phrase.
Or the receptionist. Or the janitor.

LOL.

On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 20:57:09 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 10:09:59 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Jan 30, 11:17*am, mm wrote:
1) My next door neighbor had a new AC put in and they replaced the
cement pad the condenser sat on with a plastic one. Is there any point
to removing the cement one if it's in one piece? * * * *
* * Later I saw a picture of the underside of a plastic pads and
except for some ribs, it's hollow and has no bottom. *Doesn't that
mean it will slowly sink into the ground and isn't that bad?

Interesting point. The ribs as I recall are spaced continuosly about
3" apart, forming a checkerboard pattern on the bottom. How easy
that can sink into the soil, I don't know for sure, but it seems
possible
if the soil is loose enough. But, sinkage of pads has been a problem
forever, even with a 2" poured concrete one. If you want to really
solve it once and for all and you expect to live there a long time,
I'd
consider getting a couple of small sona tubes, dig footers with a
post hole digger, fill with concrete and then set the plastic base
on those.


They used a plastic pad when they put mine in.
About 8 years in I noticed a corner had dropped a couple inches.
A pry bar and some gravel fixed that.
The problem was bad drainage making the ground soft there.
Fixed that too.
Nothing wrong with plastic pads IME.

I don't think so either. I just want to know there is no reason to
take out my cement and put in plastic, like they did for my neighbor.

I don't think my unit weighs more than a couple hundred pounds, if
that.
Have to be pretty heavy before I'd go with footings.

LOL

--Vic

On Jan 31, 10:58*am, mm wrote:
Thanks, Vic. * I do have a level, but it's always looked so level I
never checked. *This week it's been under 6 inches of snow so I can't
check now.

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 00:41:21 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Jan 30, 7:51 pm, mm wrote:

So there is little or no down-side to screwing it down? If there is
no reason not to do it, I think I will put one or two screws in.
Otherwise I'll feel stupid when the next one moves too.

I've seen install instructions for securing them where required for
hurricane protection. *

Great. *No hurricanes here but I'll do something to keep it from
moving.





I never paid any attention to exactly how
though, but since it's apparently required by code in some areas
and installations, you would think they would all have a means of
doing so.
....
4) It also says in the url above:

["If the uncased coil is to be installed on top of a gas furnace,
allow enough space between the top to the furnace and the
bottom of the plastic coil drain pan to have a free flow of air.]

"A minimum of 2.0" distance from the top of the furnace and
the bottom of the coil pan is required. The coil should be installed
with the line set and drain openings to the front of the
furnace."

Does this bit aobut the openings refer only to gas?

That's the letter of what they wrote.

I don't think so.
For oil, is it necessary to have the openings at the front, and why?

Unless it says otherwise, it sounds like it only applies to gas. *Oil
furnaces may have different air flow or design characteristics so
that it doesn't matter. * But who knows.... *You could call the
manufacturer, but most of them won't answer install questions
from DIY. *If you buy an encased coil, this no longer matters.

Well, I'll try, and I'll make a greater effort to see neighbors' new
furnaces.



They're at the side now and work much better there afaic.

I still don;t see the need to try to put it together differently than
the normal installation. *

Maybe this is why I'm still single. *Maybe an objective opinion would
be that I'm increcredibly picky, but it always seems reasonable to me.
* :=)





If you have a serious clearance problem
then it's one thing. *But all I'm hearing so far is the furnace vent
and AC condensate drain lines. *Every furnace has those issues
and they appear to be designed to go together easily, with
clearance, etc as built, with the AC lines coming off the front.

My old coils came out the side too. New ones with the coils already
encased come out the front, at least in the ones I've seen. That

Do you think that means there is room from a bigger coil that way? I
noticed that the coils they have for sale come with adapter plates, to
seal the outer perimeter at the bottom in case the coil case is wider
than the furnace. Not pretty but maybe I could use that to point the
openings sideways

What you're describing is a transition kit, or adaptor if you will,
for use
when you use an encased coil that is larger than the furnace. *They
are
used in cases where you need more AC than heat. *You could probably

Good to know.

use a similar scheme to allow you to mount it rotated 90 deg. *But be
aware that there are restrictions on how gradually you have to taper
the transition so as to maintain smooth airflow. *Depending on your
height limitations, that could be a problem.

Height is a problem. *That's a big reason why I can only install the
smallest simplest non-electric humidifier. *

There is an I-beam over part of the furnace that requires a shift
several inches to the right as the duct goes up. *That piece starts
about 10 inches above the coil.

Then I don't see the problem with mounting a humidifier on the coil
box.... The box alone is a lot larger than typical humidifiers.
And
you usually can mount it starting a few inches above the bottom, no?
All you need is room to be able to make the cut in the sheet metal
without hitting the evaporator coils and to know what's located near
where your're cutting. By cutting it before install, you'll know
exactly.

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 12:49:06 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Jan 31, 10:58*am, mm wrote:

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 00:41:21 -0800 (PST), wrote:
.....
use a similar scheme to allow you to mount it rotated 90 deg. *But be
aware that there are restrictions on how gradually you have to taper
the transition so as to maintain smooth airflow. *Depending on your
height limitations, that could be a problem.

Height is a problem. *That's a big reason why I can only install the
smallest simplest non-electric humidifier. *

There is an I-beam over part of the furnace that requires a shift
several inches to the right as the duct goes up. *That piece starts
about 10 inches above the coil.

Then I don't see the problem with mounting a humidifier on the coil
box.... The box alone is a lot larger than typical humidifiers.

Of course now they are heat and sound insulated iiuc on all sides,
which means cutting through two pieces of metal and the insulation in
between.

And
you usually can mount it starting a few inches above the bottom, no?
All you need is room to be able to make the cut in the sheet metal
without hitting the evaporator coils and to know what's located near
where your're cutting. By cutting it before install, you'll know
exactly.

Yes I would.

You may be right. Currently, the flue is right in front of that area
on the front, and it only allows about 3 inches, and none of the fancy
ones** fit on the outside, but if the openings are in the front, there
will be lots of room on the side for the humidifier.

**The simple one, the General-Aire 600 only takes an inch on the
outside, but 7 iirc inches on the inside, and I still don't know if
that one would have fit next to the coil, but it's mounted in the
diagonal (hortizontal-shift) duct.

You've given me a lot to think about. Thanks.

On Feb 1, 3:26*am, mm wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 12:49:06 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Jan 31, 10:58 am, mm wrote:

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 00:41:21 -0800 (PST), wrote:
.....
use a similar scheme to allow you to mount it rotated 90 deg. But be
aware that there are restrictions on how gradually you have to taper
the transition so as to maintain smooth airflow. Depending on your
height limitations, that could be a problem.

Height is a problem. That's a big reason why I can only install the
smallest simplest non-electric humidifier.

There is an I-beam over part of the furnace that requires a shift
several inches to the right as the duct goes up. That piece starts
about 10 inches above the coil.

Then I don't see the problem with mounting a humidifier on the coil
box.... * The box alone is a lot larger than typical humidifiers.

Of course now they are heat and sound insulated iiuc on all sides,
which means cutting through two pieces of metal and the insulation in
between.

And
you usually can mount it starting a few inches above the bottom, no?
All you need is room to be able to make the cut in the sheet metal
without hitting the evaporator coils and to know what's located near
where your're cutting. *By cutting it before install, you'll know
exactly.

Yes I would.

You may be right. * Currently, the flue is right in front of that area
on the front, and it only allows about 3 inches, and none of the fancy
ones** fit on the outside, but if the openings are in the front, there
will be lots of room on the side for the humidifier.

**The simple one, the General-Aire 600 only takes an inch on the
outside, but 7 iirc inches on the inside, and I still don't know if
that one would have fit next to the coil, but it's mounted in the
diagonal (hortizontal-shift) duct.

You've given me a lot to think about. * Thanks.



Over the years, Aprilaire has been consistently recommended
as one of the best humidifiers. The 700 is self powered, so
no additional bypass duct is needed. I have one of those and
it doesn't enter the coil box at all. I've seen a Honeywell that
uses the same media, but is a bypass and it too does not
extend at all into the box/plenum. I would think the Aprilaire
bypass ones are similar. So, you have choices in
a humidifier that doesn't extend into the coil box. In fact,
I'm having a hard time imaging why you would design one
that way, or if you could even sell it.

On Tue, 1 Feb 2011 07:28:57 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Feb 1, 3:26*am, mm wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 12:49:06 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Jan 31, 10:58 am, mm wrote:

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 00:41:21 -0800 (PST), wrote:
.....
use a similar scheme to allow you to mount it rotated 90 deg. But be
aware that there are restrictions on how gradually you have to taper
the transition so as to maintain smooth airflow. Depending on your
height limitations, that could be a problem.

Height is a problem. That's a big reason why I can only install the
smallest simplest non-electric humidifier.

There is an I-beam over part of the furnace that requires a shift
several inches to the right as the duct goes up. That piece starts
about 10 inches above the coil.

Then I don't see the problem with mounting a humidifier on the coil
box.... * The box alone is a lot larger than typical humidifiers.

Of course now they are heat and sound insulated iiuc on all sides,
which means cutting through two pieces of metal and the insulation in
between.

And
you usually can mount it starting a few inches above the bottom, no?
All you need is room to be able to make the cut in the sheet metal
without hitting the evaporator coils and to know what's located near
where your're cutting. *By cutting it before install, you'll know
exactly.

Yes I would.

You may be right. * Currently, the flue is right in front of that area
on the front, and it only allows about 3 inches, and none of the fancy
ones** fit on the outside, but if the openings are in the front, there
will be lots of room on the side for the humidifier.

**The simple one, the General-Aire 600 only takes an inch on the
outside, but 7 iirc inches on the inside, and I still don't know if
that one would have fit next to the coil, but it's mounted in the
diagonal (hortizontal-shift) duct.

You've given me a lot to think about. * Thanks.



Over the years, Aprilaire has been consistently recommended
as one of the best humidifiers. The 700 is self powered, so
no additional bypass duct is needed. I have one of those and
it doesn't enter the coil box at all. I've seen a Honeywell that
uses the same media, but is a bypass and it too does not
extend at all into the box/plenum. I would think the Aprilaire
bypass ones are similar. So, you have choices in
a humidifier that doesn't extend into the coil box. In fact,
I'm having a hard time imaging why you would design one
that way, or if you could even sell it.

It's designed that way becuase it depends on the hot air from the
furnace (and not from a humidifier fan) blowing by the wet fiberglass
pads, so the pads have to be in the duct, in the original airflow. So
the pan is in there too, of course. So it's small and needs no
electricity.

They've been selling the one I have for 25 years that I know about.

It says "General Filters, Inc. [that is, Arthur Redner] founded in
1937, developed the implementation of the wool-felt fiber element for
cleaning home heating oil. The General Brand Fuel Oil Filter allows
residential and commercial oil furnaces to run more effectively and
efficiently. The General Fuel Oil Filter set the industry standard
across North America and leads the pack for reliability and
dependability today.

1940’s GFI won a government contract, delivering an engine-driven
portable filter device to military aircraft ground support during
WW II. GFI introduces new technology, using wool filter elements
to clean lubricating oils. www.generaloilfilters.com "

On Feb 1, 10:28*pm, mm wrote:
On Tue, 1 Feb 2011 07:28:57 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Feb 1, 3:26*am, mm wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 12:49:06 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Jan 31, 10:58 am, mm wrote:

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 00:41:21 -0800 (PST), wrote:
.....
use a similar scheme to allow you to mount it rotated 90 deg. But be
aware that there are restrictions on how gradually you have to taper
the transition so as to maintain smooth airflow. Depending on your
height limitations, that could be a problem.

Height is a problem. That's a big reason why I can only install the
smallest simplest non-electric humidifier.

There is an I-beam over part of the furnace that requires a shift
several inches to the right as the duct goes up. That piece starts
about 10 inches above the coil.

Then I don't see the problem with mounting a humidifier on the coil
box.... * The box alone is a lot larger than typical humidifiers.

Of course now they are heat and sound insulated iiuc on all sides,
which means cutting through two pieces of metal and the insulation in
between.

And
you usually can mount it starting a few inches above the bottom, no?
All you need is room to be able to make the cut in the sheet metal
without hitting the evaporator coils and to know what's located near
where your're cutting. *By cutting it before install, you'll know
exactly.

Yes I would.

You may be right. * Currently, the flue is right in front of that area
on the front, and it only allows about 3 inches, and none of the fancy
ones** fit on the outside, but if the openings are in the front, there
will be lots of room on the side for the humidifier.

**The simple one, the General-Aire 600 only takes an inch on the
outside, but 7 iirc inches on the inside, and I still don't know if
that one would have fit next to the coil, but it's mounted in the
diagonal (hortizontal-shift) duct.

You've given me a lot to think about. * Thanks.

Over the years, Aprilaire has been consistently recommended
as one of the best humidifiers. * The 700 is self powered, so
no additional bypass duct is needed. *I have one of those and
it doesn't enter the coil box at all. *I've seen a Honeywell that
uses the same media, but is a bypass and it too does not
extend at all into the box/plenum. *I would think the Aprilaire
bypass ones are similar. * So, you have choices in
a humidifier that doesn't extend into the coil box. *In fact,
I'm having a hard time imaging why you would design one
that way, or if you could even sell it.

It's designed that way becuase it depends on the hot air from the
furnace (and not from a humidifier fan) blowing by the wet fiberglass
pads, so the pads have to be in the duct, in the original airflow. *So
the pan is in there too, of course. So it's small and needs no
electricity.

Doesn't sound like a good idea to design it that way because if you
have AC coils you can't install it, as you discovered, or if you can,
it's
problematic. And with those AC coils, the last thing you want is
something sticking into the coil box, further restricting the air
flow.

There are plenty of humidifier choices that don't extend into the coil
box, including bypass models that require no power. Check out
Aprilaire, problem solved.





They've been selling the one I have for 25 years that I know about.

It says "General Filters, Inc. [that is, Arthur Redner] founded in
1937, developed the implementation of the wool-felt fiber element for
cleaning home heating oil. The General Brand Fuel Oil Filter allows
residential and commercial oil furnaces to run more effectively and
efficiently. The General Fuel Oil Filter set the industry standard
across North America and leads the pack for reliability and
dependability today.

1940’s *GFI won a government contract, delivering an engine-driven
portable filter device to military aircraft ground support during
WW II. GFI introduces new technology, using wool filter elements
to clean lubricating oils.www.generaloilfilters.com"- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 20:39:20 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

1) My next door neighbor had a new AC put in and they
replaced the
cement pad the condenser sat on with a plastic one. Is there
any point
to removing the cement one if it's in one piece?

CY: Not much.

Later I saw a picture of the underside of a plastic pads
and
except for some ribs, it's hollow and has no bottom.
Doesn't that
mean it will slowly sink into the ground and isn't that bad?

CY: Yes, it will sink, and that's bad. I don't know why they
make em hollow.

My own AC condenser unit over the last 31 years has
moved 6 or 8
inches to the right, until it hangs off the edge the pad.
Was there
any way to stop that in the first place? Screw it to the
pad? Later
on? I was afraid of causing a leak if I pushed it back.

CY: Screw it to the pad. Not much to be done, now.

2) When using a gravity feed condensate drain line, Goodman
wants a
trap in the line. I don't have one now. Is this to seal
heated air
in the furnace and supply ducts when in heating mode. Or to
keep
outside air out?

CY: The rushing air inside the furnace can make a venturi
effect. It sucks in through the drain tube. This prevents
water from draining, and can eventually result in water
getting into the blower, etc. Or so I'm told.


3) Do people really use a secondary drain pan in case the
first drain
plugs up? Or is it just a secondary drain from the same
pan? If a
pan, where do they put this pan? (I read that it is
required by code
some places.)
http://www.alpinehomeair.com/related...%20Install.pdf

CY: The secondary drain "should" go some where that is
obviously not right. Dripping over the front door, or some
place obvious. The goal being that when the secondary is
dripping, the owner knows to call for service.


4) It also says in the url above:

["If the uncased coil is to be installed on top of a gas
furnace,
allow enough space between the top to the furnace and the
bottom of the plastic coil drain pan to have a free flow of
air.]

"A minimum of 2.0" distance from the top of the furnace and
the bottom of the coil pan is required. The coil should be
installed
with the line set and drain openings to the front of the
furnace."

Does this bit aobut the openings refer only to gas? I don't
think so.

CY: The distance for oil furnace is greater. More like 5 to
9 inches. Been a while since I put AC over an oil furnace.


For oil, is it necessary to have the openings at the front,
and why?
They're at the side now and work much better there afaic. In
the
front, the flue will be in the way of the condensate drain
pipe and in
the way if I want to take off the cover and look inside or
clean the
evaporator area.

CY: They should be accessable. Whichever works best.

But my neighbor with the new furnace/ac has them at
the front (with no access door iirc, and her house is the
mirror image
of mine, so the plastic condensate pipe goes the other
direction and
doesn't need to pass the hot flue).

Thanks a lot.
5) A cased evaporator is listed as having a "High-quality
post-paint
cabinet". What does post-paint mean? Googling didn't
help.

CY: Probably refers to enamel finish. Either that, or it's
the same color as the hitching post that Wyatt Earp ties his
horse, Paint. When he goes to town, that is.


Thanks a lot for your point-by-point answer.