Got a 15 amp split receptable mounted on a studded basement wall for a
washing machine and gas dryer. I want to install a laundry tub about 4
feet away. Code here says that outlet has go to be gfci (1.5 metres or
about 4.5 feet from the "sink") but I cannot find any 15 amp split
receptacle gfi outlets. The wire is 14/3 so I can't do like the kitchen 20
amp near the sinks...

are there 15 amp gfi split receptacle outlets? I see none available in my
juistiction (ontario)... Is this because it has to be gfi at the breaker
and not allowed at the outlet?

"The Henchman" wrote in message
...
Got a 15 amp split receptable mounted on a studded basement wall for a
washing machine and gas dryer. I want to install a laundry tub about 4
feet away. Code here says that outlet has go to be gfci (1.5 metres or
about 4.5 feet from the "sink") but I cannot find any 15 amp split
receptacle gfi outlets. The wire is 14/3 so I can't do like the kitchen
20 amp near the sinks...

are there 15 amp gfi split receptacle outlets? I see none available in my
juistiction (ontario)... Is this because it has to be gfi at the breaker
and not allowed at the outlet?

It's probably because they can't fit all the electronics into the size of a
receptacle. You could change the box to a double and install two gfci
outlets, or if you have piles of money to blow, you could get a double pole
15 amp gfci with neutral circuit breaker

On Sep 16, 8:50*pm, "The Henchman" wrote:
Got a 15 amp split receptable mounted on a studded basement wall for a
washing machine and gas dryer. * I want to install a laundry tub about 4
feet away. *Code here says that outlet has go to be gfci *(1.5 metres or
about 4.5 feet from the "sink") but I cannot find any 15 amp split
receptacle gfi outlets. * The wire is 14/3 so I can't do like the kitchen 20
amp near the sinks...

are there 15 amp gfi split receptacle outlets? *I see none available in my
juistiction (ontario)... * Is this because it has to be gfi at the breaker
and not allowed at the outlet?

As far as I know, they don't exist.

Here are some thoughts:

1 - Any reason you can't use one GFCI for both? Why is the current
outlet split? I've been running a washing machine and gas dryer off of
a single 15 amp receptacle for years. It's on the same circuit as the
receptacle we use to iron. We've never had a problem using all three
appliances at the same time.

2 - How hard would it be to add a second receptacle (2 GFCI's) in the
same location?

3 - Why not leave the current receptacle in place and use a 2 pole
GFCI breaker?

http://www.electricsuppliesonline.co...t-breaker.html

4 - I've heard of this solution, although I'll say right up front that
I don't know if it's code compliant - or could be made code compliant
by ganging 2 breakers:

Install 2 GFCI's someplace else and wire the top of the split to one
GFCI and the bottom to the other. Again, I don't know if that is
doable per code, but I've heard of it being done to split receptacles
in a kitchen.

"RBM" wrote in message
...

"The Henchman" wrote in message
...
Got a 15 amp split receptable mounted on a studded basement wall for a
washing machine and gas dryer. I want to install a laundry tub about 4
feet away. Code here says that outlet has go to be gfci (1.5 metres or
about 4.5 feet from the "sink") but I cannot find any 15 amp split
receptacle gfi outlets. The wire is 14/3 so I can't do like the kitchen
20 amp near the sinks...

are there 15 amp gfi split receptacle outlets? I see none available in
my juistiction (ontario)... Is this because it has to be gfi at the
breaker and not allowed at the outlet?

It's probably because they can't fit all the electronics into the size of
a receptacle. You could change the box to a double and install two gfci
outlets, or if you have piles of money to blow, you could get a double
pole 15 amp gfci with neutral circuit breaker

It's a single 14/3 wire. How do I wire that single splt receptacle into two
receptacle in a single double box?

"The Henchman" wrote in message
...


"RBM" wrote in message
...

"The Henchman" wrote in message
...
Got a 15 amp split receptable mounted on a studded basement wall for a
washing machine and gas dryer. I want to install a laundry tub about 4
feet away. Code here says that outlet has go to be gfci (1.5 metres or
about 4.5 feet from the "sink") but I cannot find any 15 amp split
receptacle gfi outlets. The wire is 14/3 so I can't do like the
kitchen 20 amp near the sinks...

are there 15 amp gfi split receptacle outlets? I see none available in
my juistiction (ontario)... Is this because it has to be gfi at the
breaker and not allowed at the outlet?

It's probably because they can't fit all the electronics into the size of
a receptacle. You could change the box to a double and install two gfci
outlets, or if you have piles of money to blow, you could get a double
pole 15 amp gfci with neutral circuit breaker

It's a single 14/3 wire. How do I wire that single splt receptacle into
two receptacle in a single double box?

You share the neutral between both receptacles, typically by using pigtails

As far as I know, they don't exist.

Here are some thoughts:

1 - Any reason you can't use one GFCI for both? Why is the current
outlet split? I've been running a washing machine and gas dryer off of
a single 15 amp receptacle for years. It's on the same circuit as the
receptacle we use to iron. We've never had a problem using all three
appliances at the same time.

Too late. It's already wired 14/3. The reason this is split receptacle is
the washing machine is a 4.6 cubic foot front load machine that has a 1100 w
heating element as well. It's some sort of futuristic front loading NASA
type bull**** appliance that claims it's more efficient to heat water while
it washes rather than pull warm water from the water tank. In fairness
the this washer uses 15 gallons or water per full load of laundry rather
than the typical 50 gallons and it averages at least 1 hour per load instead
of the typical 35 minutes per load. The washing machine calls for 11A

The really large gas dryer calls for 6 A. GE appliances of Canada actually
recommends in it book that these two appliances if used in a pair must
either be on a 20 amp circuit or two 15 amp circuits.


2 - How hard would it be to add a second receptacle (2 GFCI's) in the
same location?

Not hard. Would have to find a current circuit and have it end for the
dryer maybe since it only maxes 6 amps (I can do this myself) or easily;\
snake new wire to the panel box for one of the many empty breakers but I am
deathly afraid of touching wires in my own panel boxes and would have to
call an electrician to wire into the box because of my fear. However it is
currently 14-3 wire right now at the split. What do I do with the red wire


3 - Why not leave the current receptacle in place and use a 2 pole
GFCI breaker?

http://www.electricsuppliesonline.co...t-breaker.html

easiest solution at this point.


4 - I've heard of this solution, although I'll say right up front that
I don't know if it's code compliant - or could be made code compliant
by ganging 2 breakers:

Install 2 GFCI's someplace else and wire the top of the split to one
GFCI and the bottom to the other. Again, I don't know if that is
doable per code, but I've heard of it being done to split receptacles
in a kitchen.


Our panel box is getting changed as we speak. An electrical inspector is
inspecting all work \before the utility is allow to turn electricity back
on. If it's grey area for code, we could be in trouble....


Number 3 is the best bet right now......

On Sep 16, 9:18*pm, "RBM" wrote:
"The Henchman" wrote in message

...

Got a 15 amp split receptable mounted on a studded basement wall for a
washing machine and gas dryer. * I want to install a laundry tub about 4
feet away. *Code here says that outlet has go to be gfci *(1.5 metres or
about 4.5 feet from the "sink") but I cannot find any 15 amp split
receptacle gfi outlets. * The wire is 14/3 so I can't do like the kitchen
20 amp near the sinks...

are there 15 amp gfi split receptacle outlets? *I see none available in my
juistiction (ontario)... * Is this because it has to be gfi at the breaker
and not allowed at the outlet?

It's probably because they can't fit all the electronics into the size of a
receptacle. You could change the box to a double and install two gfci
outlets, or if you have piles of money to blow, you could get a double pole
15 amp gfci with neutral circuit breaker

"if you have piles of money to blow, you could get a double pole
15 amp gfci with neutral circuit breaker"

RBM...serious question...since you know a lot more about this than
me...

Everybody's idea of a "pile" is different.

This link shows a 15 amp 2 pole GFCI breaker for $25.

http://www.electricsuppliesonline.co...t-breaker.html

Do you consider that a "pile of money" or is that not the type of
breaker you were referring to?

Wouldn't 2 GFCI's, a double box and face plate cost close to that -
and take a lot more work to install?

It's a single 14/3 wire. How do I wire that single splt receptacle into
two receptacle in a single double box?

You share the neutral between both receptacles, typically by using
pigtails

neutral is white correct? so I run a shoirt pig tail from one recpet to the
other. Red wire goes hot onto first recept and black wire goes hot into
recpt number 2? anything about the grounding I would have to consider? I
can use gfi outlets using this scenario?

"The Henchman" wrote in message
...



It's a single 14/3 wire. How do I wire that single splt receptacle into
two receptacle in a single double box?

You share the neutral between both receptacles, typically by using
pigtails

neutral is white correct? so I run a shoirt pig tail from one recpet to
the other. Red wire goes hot onto first recept and black wire goes hot
into recpt number 2? anything about the grounding I would have to
consider? I can use gfi outlets using this scenario?

You got it, and just ground both receptacles as you would normally

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
On Sep 16, 9:18 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"The Henchman" wrote in message

...

Got a 15 amp split receptable mounted on a studded basement wall for a
washing machine and gas dryer. I want to install a laundry tub about 4
feet away. Code here says that outlet has go to be gfci (1.5 metres or
about 4.5 feet from the "sink") but I cannot find any 15 amp split
receptacle gfi outlets. The wire is 14/3 so I can't do like the kitchen
20 amp near the sinks...

are there 15 amp gfi split receptacle outlets? I see none available in
my
juistiction (ontario)... Is this because it has to be gfi at the breaker
and not allowed at the outlet?

It's probably because they can't fit all the electronics into the size of
a
receptacle. You could change the box to a double and install two gfci
outlets, or if you have piles of money to blow, you could get a double
pole
15 amp gfci with neutral circuit breaker

"if you have piles of money to blow, you could get a double pole
15 amp gfci with neutral circuit breaker"

RBM...serious question...since you know a lot more about this than
me...

Everybody's idea of a "pile" is different.

This link shows a 15 amp 2 pole GFCI breaker for $25.

http://www.electricsuppliesonline.co...t-breaker.html

Do you consider that a "pile of money" or is that not the type of
breaker you were referring to?

Wouldn't 2 GFCI's, a double box and face plate cost close to that -
and take a lot more work to install?

The breaker you link to is just a standard 2 pole 15 amp. If you scrounge
around that site, you'll find the 2 pole 15 amp gfci, which is $145

"The Henchman" wrote in message
...
Got a 15 amp split receptable mounted on a studded basement wall for a
washing machine and gas dryer. I want to install a laundry tub about 4
feet away. Code here says that outlet has go to be gfci (1.5 metres or
about 4.5 feet from the "sink") but I cannot find any 15 amp split
receptacle gfi outlets. The wire is 14/3 so I can't do like the kitchen
20 amp near the sinks...

are there 15 amp gfi split receptacle outlets? I see none available in my
juistiction (ontario)... Is this because it has to be gfi at the breaker
and not allowed at the outlet?

Moot point I just found out. Ge Appliances of Canada answered my email in
35 minutes time about the use of GFI/GFCI for their gas dryer. They do
NOT recommend any of their large appliances, esp gas stoves, gas ranges and
gas dryers be used with gfi because the igniters in these appliances will
always have a small "leak to ground" that will trip the gfi. In their email
they also included water softeners, microwaves and teevee monitors not be
connected to gfi.



so much for all of our ideas. Sorry for getting everyone all worked
up on my question....

"The Henchman" wrote in message
...


"The Henchman" wrote in message
...
Got a 15 amp split receptable mounted on a studded basement wall for a
washing machine and gas dryer. I want to install a laundry tub about 4
feet away. Code here says that outlet has go to be gfci (1.5 metres or
about 4.5 feet from the "sink") but I cannot find any 15 amp split
receptacle gfi outlets. The wire is 14/3 so I can't do like the kitchen
20 amp near the sinks...

are there 15 amp gfi split receptacle outlets? I see none available in
my juistiction (ontario)... Is this because it has to be gfi at the
breaker and not allowed at the outlet?

Moot point I just found out. Ge Appliances of Canada answered my email
in 35 minutes time about the use of GFI/GFCI for their gas dryer. They
do NOT recommend any of their large appliances, esp gas stoves, gas ranges
and gas dryers be used with gfi because the igniters in these appliances
will always have a small "leak to ground" that will trip the gfi. In
their email they also included water softeners, microwaves and teevee
monitors not be connected to gfi.



so much for all of our ideas. Sorry for getting everyone all
worked up on my question....

Does the CEC require the outlet in that location to be gfci protected?
I know in the US, the NEC couldn't give a hoot about any appliance
manufacturers recommendations

Does the CEC require the outlet in that location to be gfci protected?
I know in the US, the NEC couldn't give a hoot about any appliance
manufacturers recommendations

The only code I could find was that any outlet within 4.5 feet (1.5 meters)
near a sink or tub must be gfci protected. There are specific instructions
for small bathrooms. The new laundry tub is 3 foot 6 from the outlet,
whatever that is in the metric system they use here.

On 9/16/2010 9:20 PM, The Henchman wrote:


"The Henchman" wrote in message
...
Got a 15 amp split receptable mounted on a studded basement wall for a
washing machine and gas dryer. I want to install a laundry tub about 4
feet away. Code here says that outlet has go to be gfci (1.5 metres or
about 4.5 feet from the "sink") but I cannot find any 15 amp split
receptacle gfi outlets. The wire is 14/3 so I can't do like the
kitchen 20 amp near the sinks...

are there 15 amp gfi split receptacle outlets? I see none available in
my juistiction (ontario)... Is this because it has to be gfi at the
breaker and not allowed at the outlet?

Moot point I just found out. Ge Appliances of Canada answered my email
in 35 minutes time about the use of GFI/GFCI for their gas dryer. They
do NOT recommend any of their large appliances, esp gas stoves, gas
ranges and gas dryers be used with gfi because the igniters in these
appliances will always have a small "leak to ground" that will trip the
gfi. In their email they also included water softeners, microwaves and
teevee monitors not be connected to gfi.



so much for all of our ideas. Sorry for getting everyone all worked
up on my question....




actually, anything with a motor should not be plugged into a gfci.



--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Sep 16, 10:12*pm, "RBM" wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

...
On Sep 16, 9:18 pm, "RBM" wrote:



"The Henchman" wrote in message

...

Got a 15 amp split receptable mounted on a studded basement wall for a
washing machine and gas dryer. I want to install a laundry tub about 4
feet away. Code here says that outlet has go to be gfci (1.5 metres or
about 4.5 feet from the "sink") but I cannot find any 15 amp split
receptacle gfi outlets. The wire is 14/3 so I can't do like the kitchen
20 amp near the sinks...

are there 15 amp gfi split receptacle outlets? I see none available in
my
juistiction (ontario)... Is this because it has to be gfi at the breaker
and not allowed at the outlet?

It's probably because they can't fit all the electronics into the size of
a
receptacle. You could change the box to a double and install two gfci
outlets, or if you have piles of money to blow, you could get a double
pole
15 amp gfci with neutral circuit breaker

"if you have piles of money to blow, you could get a double pole
15 amp gfci with neutral circuit breaker"

RBM...serious question...since you know a lot more about this than
me...

Everybody's idea of a "pile" is different.

This link shows a 15 amp 2 pole GFCI breaker for $25.

http://www.electricsuppliesonline.co...t-breaker.html

Do you consider that a "pile of money" or is that not the type of
breaker you were referring to?

Wouldn't 2 GFCI's, a double box and face plate cost close to that -
and take a lot more work to install?

The breaker you link to is just a standard 2 pole 15 amp. If you scrounge
around that site, you'll find the 2 pole 15 amp gfci, which is $145

Crabby website! The page for the GFCI breaker shows a picture and
specs on the GFCI breaker on top and then a table of part numbers just
below that. I clicked on the 15 amp 1-pack and didn't even realize it
had taken me to a totally different page.

On Sep 16, 10:43*pm, "The Henchman" wrote:
Does the CEC require the outlet in that location to be gfci protected?
I know in the US, the NEC couldn't give a hoot about any appliance
manufacturers recommendations

The only code I could find was that any outlet within 4.5 feet (1.5 meters)
near a sink or tub must be gfci protected. *There are specific instructions
for small bathrooms. * The new laundry tub is 3 foot 6 from the outlet,
whatever that is in the metric system they use here.

Stupid question...if you move the outlet 1 foot will the cords still
reach?

On 2010-09-17, Steve Barker wrote:

actually, anything with a motor should not be plugged into a gfci.

Outdated conventional wisdom.

Current version: motor appliance manufacturers need to build their
motors so that the leakage current is low enough not to trip a 5ma
GFCI. I think the UL standard may be 0.5ma allowable leakage current,
not sure.

Cheers, Wayne

"Wayne Whitney" wrote in message
...
On 2010-09-17, Steve Barker wrote:

actually, anything with a motor should not be plugged into a gfci.

Outdated conventional wisdom.

Current version: motor appliance manufacturers need to build their
motors so that the leakage current is low enough not to trip a 5ma
GFCI. I think the UL standard may be 0.5ma allowable leakage current,
not sure.

Cheers, Wayne

GE's email response seem to focus on the gas igniters of their appliance
more than anything maybe maybe that's because they custom answered my
question.

Here's a question for you. I have a 15 amp outdoor gfi outlet that I want
to use power tools on such as 13 amp table saws and 15 cicrular saws and the
like. what potential leak to ground can be from those motors?

"The Henchman" wrote in message
...


"Wayne Whitney" wrote in message
...
On 2010-09-17, Steve Barker wrote:

actually, anything with a motor should not be plugged into a gfci.

Outdated conventional wisdom.

Current version: motor appliance manufacturers need to build their
motors so that the leakage current is low enough not to trip a 5ma
GFCI. I think the UL standard may be 0.5ma allowable leakage current,
not sure.

Cheers, Wayne

GE's email response seem to focus on the gas igniters of their appliance
more than anything maybe maybe that's because they custom answered my
question.

Here's a question for you. I have a 15 amp outdoor gfi outlet that I
want to use power tools on such as 13 amp table saws and 15 cicrular saws
and the like. what potential leak to ground can be from those motors?


If they're in proper working condition, there shouldn't be any. This is also
Wayne's point, at least in the US, the manufacturers are responsible for
building their stuff to the latest safety standards, so they will work
reliably with gfci protection

On Sep 17, 5:30*am, "The Henchman" wrote:
"Wayne Whitney" wrote in message

...

On 2010-09-17, Steve Barker wrote:

actually, anything with a motor should not be plugged into a gfci.

Outdated conventional wisdom.

Current version: motor appliance manufacturers need to build their
motors so that the leakage current is low enough not to trip a 5ma
GFCI. *I think the UL standard may be 0.5ma allowable leakage current,
not sure.

Cheers, Wayne

GE's email response seem to focus on the gas igniters of their appliance
more than anything maybe maybe that's because they custom answered my
question.

Here's a question for you. * *I have a 15 amp outdoor gfi outlet that I want
to use power tools on such as 13 amp table saws and 15 cicrular saws and the
like. * what potential leak to ground can be from those motors?

"use power tools on such as 13 amp table saws and 15 cicrular
saws"

You have 15 circular saws? Wow! ;-)

I've been using corded hand tools on GFCI's for a couple of decades
and as far as I recall, none of them have ever tripped the receptacle.

On Thu, 16 Sep 2010 20:50:17 -0400, "The Henchman"
wrote:

Got a 15 amp split receptable mounted on a studded basement wall for a
washing machine and gas dryer. I want to install a laundry tub about 4
feet away. Code here says that outlet has go to be gfci (1.5 metres or
about 4.5 feet from the "sink") but I cannot find any 15 amp split
receptacle gfi outlets. The wire is 14/3 so I can't do like the kitchen 20
amp near the sinks...

are there 15 amp gfi split receptacle outlets? I see none available in my
juistiction (ontario)... Is this because it has to be gfi at the breaker
and not allowed at the outlet?

Not sure of current codes, but code used to allow a dedicated (single)
outlet to serve utilization equipment in a GFI mandated distance.
Code also used to require a 20 amp laundry circuit.
Your inspector will have the required information.
--
Mr.E

RBM wrote:
"The Henchman" wrote in message
...

"Wayne Whitney" wrote in message
...
On 2010-09-17, Steve Barker wrote:

actually, anything with a motor should not be plugged into a gfci.
Outdated conventional wisdom.

Current version: motor appliance manufacturers need to build their
motors so that the leakage current is low enough not to trip a 5ma
GFCI. I think the UL standard may be 0.5ma allowable leakage current,
not sure.

Cheers, Wayne
GE's email response seem to focus on the gas igniters of their appliance
more than anything maybe maybe that's because they custom answered my
question.

Here's a question for you. I have a 15 amp outdoor gfi outlet that I
want to use power tools on such as 13 amp table saws and 15 cicrular saws
and the like. what potential leak to ground can be from those motors?

If they're in proper working condition, there shouldn't be any. This is also
Wayne's point, at least in the US, the manufacturers are responsible for
building their stuff to the latest safety standards, so they will work
reliably with gfci protection


Or, conversely, the code probably wouldn't be changed to not work with
the way equipment is built.

I agree with RBM and Wayne.

Temporary receptacles at construction sites generally have to be GFCI
protected. The power tools used by construction workers better not trip
a GFCI.

Receptacles for 15/20A 120V refrigerators and freezers in commercial
kitchens have to be GFCI protected.

It would be easy to construct a spark ignitor on the secondary of a
transformer, so there is no ground leakage on the supply wires.

--
bud--

On Sep 16, 10:50*pm, Steve Barker wrote:
On 9/16/2010 9:20 PM, The Henchman wrote:







"The Henchman" wrote in message
...
Got a 15 amp split receptable mounted on a studded basement wall for a
washing machine and gas dryer. I want to install a laundry tub about 4
feet away. Code here says that outlet has go to be gfci (1.5 metres or
about 4.5 feet from the "sink") but I cannot find any 15 amp split
receptacle gfi outlets. The wire is 14/3 so I can't do like the
kitchen 20 amp near the sinks...

are there 15 amp gfi split receptacle outlets? I see none available in
my juistiction (ontario)... Is this because it has to be gfi at the
breaker and not allowed at the outlet?

Moot point I just found out. Ge Appliances of Canada answered my email
in 35 minutes time about the use of GFI/GFCI for their gas dryer. They
do NOT recommend any of their large appliances, esp gas stoves, gas
ranges and gas dryers be used with gfi because the igniters in these
appliances will always have a small "leak to ground" that will trip the
gfi. In their email they also included water softeners, microwaves and
teevee monitors not be connected to gfi.

so much for all of our ideas. Sorry for getting everyone all worked
up on my question....

actually, anything with a motor should not be plugged into a gfci.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


The NEC specifically calls for pool pump motors to be GFCI protected.
Some of those are used on cords/plugs to facilitate easy removal.

On Sep 17, 10:33*am, bud-- wrote:
RBM wrote:
"The Henchman" wrote in message
...

"Wayne Whitney" wrote in message
...
On 2010-09-17, Steve Barker wrote:

actually, anything with a motor should not be plugged into a gfci.
Outdated conventional wisdom.

Current version: motor appliance manufacturers need to build their
motors so that the leakage current is low enough not to trip a 5ma
GFCI. *I think the UL standard may be 0.5ma allowable leakage current,
not sure.

Cheers, Wayne
GE's email response seem to focus on the gas igniters of their appliance
more than anything maybe maybe that's because they custom answered my
question.

Here's a question for you. * *I have a 15 amp outdoor gfi outlet that I
want to use power tools on such as 13 amp table saws and 15 cicrular saws
and the like. * what potential leak to ground can be from those motors?

If they're in proper working condition, there shouldn't be any. This is also
Wayne's point, at least in the US, the manufacturers are responsible for
building their stuff to the latest safety standards, so they will work
reliably with gfci protection

Or, conversely, the code probably wouldn't be changed to not work with
the way equipment is built.

I agree with RBM and Wayne.

Temporary receptacles at construction sites generally have to be GFCI
protected. The power tools used by construction workers better not trip
a GFCI.

Receptacles for 15/20A 120V refrigerators and freezers in commercial
kitchens have to be GFCI protected.

It would be easy to construct a spark ignitor on the secondary of a
transformer, so there is no ground leakage on the supply wires.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Or just use a hot surface ignitor. I don't see why an appliance
manufacturer can't build a dryer within leakage current limits of GFCI
either.

On Sep 17, 10:08*am, wrote:
On Sep 17, 10:33*am, bud-- wrote:



RBM wrote:
"The Henchman" wrote in message
...

"Wayne Whitney" wrote in message
...
On 2010-09-17, Steve Barker wrote:

actually, anything with a motor should not be plugged into a gfci.
Outdated conventional wisdom.

Current version: motor appliance manufacturers need to build their
motors so that the leakage current is low enough not to trip a 5ma
GFCI. *I think the UL standard may be 0.5ma allowable leakage current,
not sure.

Cheers, Wayne
GE's email response seem to focus on the gas igniters of their appliance
more than anything maybe maybe that's because they custom answered my
question.

Here's a question for you. * *I have a 15 amp outdoor gfi outlet that I
want to use power tools on such as 13 amp table saws and 15 cicrular saws
and the like. * what potential leak to ground can be from those motors?

If they're in proper working condition, there shouldn't be any. This is also
Wayne's point, at least in the US, the manufacturers are responsible for
building their stuff to the latest safety standards, so they will work
reliably with gfci protection

Or, conversely, the code probably wouldn't be changed to not work with
the way equipment is built.

I agree with RBM and Wayne.

Temporary receptacles at construction sites generally have to be GFCI
protected. The power tools used by construction workers better not trip
a GFCI.

Receptacles for 15/20A 120V refrigerators and freezers in commercial
kitchens have to be GFCI protected.

It would be easy to construct a spark ignitor on the secondary of a
transformer, so there is no ground leakage on the supply wires.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Or just use a hot surface ignitor. *I don't see why an appliance
manufacturer can't build a dryer within leakage current limits of GFCI
either.

They can, if the customer uses a 4-wire connection. Otherwise, any
120V stuff in the dryer is connected to ground and there will be (a
lot of) leakage. 3-Wire (hot, hot, ground) used to be code, but now 4-
wire connections (hot-hot-neutral-ground) are required where any 120V
circuits are used. The 3-wire connections are grandfathered for
existing structures.

On 2010-09-17, lid wrote:

Not sure of current codes, but code used to allow a dedicated (single)
outlet to serve utilization equipment in a GFI mandated distance.

No longer. Wayne

On Sep 17, 11:53*am, keith wrote:
On Sep 17, 10:08*am, wrote:





On Sep 17, 10:33*am, bud-- wrote:

RBM wrote:
"The Henchman" wrote in message
...

"Wayne Whitney" wrote in message
...
On 2010-09-17, Steve Barker wrote:

actually, anything with a motor should not be plugged into a gfci.
Outdated conventional wisdom.

Current version: motor appliance manufacturers need to build their
motors so that the leakage current is low enough not to trip a 5ma
GFCI. *I think the UL standard may be 0.5ma allowable leakage current,
not sure.

Cheers, Wayne
GE's email response seem to focus on the gas igniters of their appliance
more than anything maybe maybe that's because they custom answered my
question.

Here's a question for you. * *I have a 15 amp outdoor gfi outlet that I
want to use power tools on such as 13 amp table saws and 15 cicrular saws
and the like. * what potential leak to ground can be from those motors?

If they're in proper working condition, there shouldn't be any. This is also
Wayne's point, at least in the US, the manufacturers are responsible for
building their stuff to the latest safety standards, so they will work
reliably with gfci protection

Or, conversely, the code probably wouldn't be changed to not work with
the way equipment is built.

I agree with RBM and Wayne.

Temporary receptacles at construction sites generally have to be GFCI
protected. The power tools used by construction workers better not trip
a GFCI.

Receptacles for 15/20A 120V refrigerators and freezers in commercial
kitchens have to be GFCI protected.

It would be easy to construct a spark ignitor on the secondary of a
transformer, so there is no ground leakage on the supply wires.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Or just use a hot surface ignitor. *I don't see why an appliance
manufacturer can't build a dryer within leakage current limits of GFCI
either.

They can, if the customer uses a 4-wire connection. *Otherwise, any
120V stuff in the dryer is connected to ground and there will be (a
lot of) leakage. *3-Wire (hot, hot, ground) used to be code, but now 4-
wire connections (hot-hot-neutral-ground) are required where any 120V
circuits are used. *The 3-wire connections are grandfathered for
existing structures.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In the context of the discussion, clearly it's a gas dryer we're
talking about that uses 120V. But broadening the discussion, why
does there have to be any 120V "stuff" in a dryer, including a 240V
electric one? I see you're point regarding backward compatibility to
an existing 3 wire dryer circuit. But in any dryer there is a heating
element if it's an electric one, a motor, and some control
circuitry. I can design all of that using just 240V. The only thing
I can think of that would ordinarily be a 120v load would be a light
inside the dryer. But it would seem someone must make a 240V
appliance bulb, no?

On Sep 17, 2:51*pm, wrote:
On Sep 17, 11:53*am, keith wrote:





On Sep 17, 10:08*am, wrote:

On Sep 17, 10:33*am, bud-- wrote:

RBM wrote:
"The Henchman" wrote in message
...

"Wayne Whitney" wrote in message
...
On 2010-09-17, Steve Barker wrote:

actually, anything with a motor should not be plugged into a gfci.
Outdated conventional wisdom.

Current version: motor appliance manufacturers need to build their
motors so that the leakage current is low enough not to trip a 5ma
GFCI. *I think the UL standard may be 0.5ma allowable leakage current,
not sure.

Cheers, Wayne
GE's email response seem to focus on the gas igniters of their appliance
more than anything maybe maybe that's because they custom answered my
question.

Here's a question for you. * *I have a 15 amp outdoor gfi outlet that I
want to use power tools on such as 13 amp table saws and 15 cicrular saws
and the like. * what potential leak to ground can be from those motors?

If they're in proper working condition, there shouldn't be any. This is also
Wayne's point, at least in the US, the manufacturers are responsible for
building their stuff to the latest safety standards, so they will work
reliably with gfci protection

Or, conversely, the code probably wouldn't be changed to not work with
the way equipment is built.

I agree with RBM and Wayne.

Temporary receptacles at construction sites generally have to be GFCI
protected. The power tools used by construction workers better not trip
a GFCI.

Receptacles for 15/20A 120V refrigerators and freezers in commercial
kitchens have to be GFCI protected.

It would be easy to construct a spark ignitor on the secondary of a
transformer, so there is no ground leakage on the supply wires.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Or just use a hot surface ignitor. *I don't see why an appliance
manufacturer can't build a dryer within leakage current limits of GFCI
either.

They can, if the customer uses a 4-wire connection. *Otherwise, any
120V stuff in the dryer is connected to ground and there will be (a
lot of) leakage. *3-Wire (hot, hot, ground) used to be code, but now 4-
wire connections (hot-hot-neutral-ground) are required where any 120V
circuits are used. *The 3-wire connections are grandfathered for
existing structures.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In the context of the discussion, clearly it's a gas dryer we're
talking about that uses 120V. * *But broadening the discussion, why
does there have to be any 120V "stuff" in a dryer, including a 240V
electric one? *I see you're point regarding backward compatibility to
an existing 3 wire dryer circuit. *But in any dryer there is a heating
element if it's an electric one, a motor, and some control
circuitry. * I can design all of that using just 240V. *The only thing
I can think of that would ordinarily be a 120v load would be a light
inside the dryer. * But it would seem someone must make a 240V
appliance bulb, no?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Bulb, "I'm done" Buzzer, Timer/Control, LEDs, Liquid Crystal display,
things that go 'beep" when you turn the knob, etc.

While all of them can be implemented with 240V, I'll bet it's cheaper
to design and implement for 120V and then use the same circuity for
both gas and electric.

You gotta have 120V dryers for those of us who use gas and don't have
240V in the laundry area.

On Sep 16, 8:50*pm, "The Henchman" wrote:
Got a 15 amp split receptable mounted on a studded basement wall for a
washing machine and gas dryer. * I want to install a laundry tub about 4
feet away. *Code here says that outlet has go to be gfci *(1.5 metres or
about 4.5 feet from the "sink") but I cannot find any 15 amp split
receptacle gfi outlets. * The wire is 14/3 so I can't do like the kitchen 20
amp near the sinks...

are there 15 amp gfi split receptacle outlets? *I see none available in my
juistiction (ontario)... * Is this because it has to be gfi at the breaker
and not allowed at the outlet?

I would find where the outlets are being fed from. If from another
outlet then change that one to GFCI. If directly from the panel
install a GFCI breaker in the panel..

Jimmie

In article , (RBM) writes:

| If they're in proper working condition, there shouldn't be any. This is also
| Wayne's point, at least in the US, the manufacturers are responsible for
| building their stuff to the latest safety standards, so they will work
| reliably with gfci protection

I recently bought an old house with 120V fused-neutral (well, they had
been sort of bypassed) service and a mixture of old BX (no ground ribbon)
and various vintages of NM wiring. The service lines blew down right
before I bought it and the section with the service entrance was going
to be replaced anyway, so the contractor ordered a temporary service
instead of trying to get the antique reconnected.

I wanted power in the house and the new panels wouldn't be in for a few
weeks so I installed an isolated neutral bar in the old fuse box, separated
ground/neutral, and plugged the whole house into a GFCI outlet on the
temporary drop. I had to fix one ground/neutral short in new (bad, DIY)
wiring, but apart from that I was able to run the whole house (including
shallow well pump) from that GFCI outlet. Just to be sure I wasn't fooling
myself I used my plug-in GFCI tester on some outlets in the house and it
did indeed trip the GFCI.

All things considered I thought this was a pretty good indication that
minimal leakage requirement are pretty easy to meet. That said, at home
I do get nuisance trips from lightning and there doesn't seem to be much
to do about this. I also used to get trips when the gaskets in cheap(?)
floodlight holders got wet, but I made teflon replacements that don't
have this problem.

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com

On Sep 17, 3:12*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sep 17, 2:51*pm, wrote:





On Sep 17, 11:53*am, keith wrote:

On Sep 17, 10:08*am, wrote:

On Sep 17, 10:33*am, bud-- wrote:

RBM wrote:
"The Henchman" wrote in message
...

"Wayne Whitney" wrote in message
...
On 2010-09-17, Steve Barker wrote:

actually, anything with a motor should not be plugged into a gfci.
Outdated conventional wisdom.

Current version: motor appliance manufacturers need to build their
motors so that the leakage current is low enough not to trip a 5ma
GFCI. *I think the UL standard may be 0.5ma allowable leakage current,
not sure.

Cheers, Wayne
GE's email response seem to focus on the gas igniters of their appliance
more than anything maybe maybe that's because they custom answered my
question.

Here's a question for you. * *I have a 15 amp outdoor gfi outlet that I
want to use power tools on such as 13 amp table saws and 15 cicrular saws
and the like. * what potential leak to ground can be from those motors?

If they're in proper working condition, there shouldn't be any. This is also
Wayne's point, at least in the US, the manufacturers are responsible for
building their stuff to the latest safety standards, so they will work
reliably with gfci protection

Or, conversely, the code probably wouldn't be changed to not work with
the way equipment is built.

I agree with RBM and Wayne.

Temporary receptacles at construction sites generally have to be GFCI
protected. The power tools used by construction workers better not trip
a GFCI.

Receptacles for 15/20A 120V refrigerators and freezers in commercial
kitchens have to be GFCI protected.

It would be easy to construct a spark ignitor on the secondary of a
transformer, so there is no ground leakage on the supply wires.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Or just use a hot surface ignitor. *I don't see why an appliance
manufacturer can't build a dryer within leakage current limits of GFCI
either.

They can, if the customer uses a 4-wire connection. *Otherwise, any
120V stuff in the dryer is connected to ground and there will be (a
lot of) leakage. *3-Wire (hot, hot, ground) used to be code, but now 4-
wire connections (hot-hot-neutral-ground) are required where any 120V
circuits are used. *The 3-wire connections are grandfathered for
existing structures.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In the context of the discussion, clearly it's a gas dryer we're
talking about that uses 120V. * *But broadening the discussion, why
does there have to be any 120V "stuff" in a dryer, including a 240V
electric one? *I see you're point regarding backward compatibility to
an existing 3 wire dryer circuit. *But in any dryer there is a heating
element if it's an electric one, a motor, and some control
circuitry. * I can design all of that using just 240V. *The only thing
I can think of that would ordinarily be a 120v load would be a light
inside the dryer. * But it would seem someone must make a 240V
appliance bulb, no?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Bulb, "I'm done" Buzzer, Timer/Control, LEDs, Liquid Crystal display,
things that go 'beep" when you turn the knob, etc.

While all of them can be implemented with 240V, I'll bet it's cheaper
to design and implement for 120V and then use the same circuity for
both gas and electric.

You gotta have 120V dryers for those of us who use gas and don't have
240V in the laundry area.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Most of the stuff on that list, ie LEDs, display, beepers, etc aren't
powered by 240V or 120V anyway. You have a transformer that powers
them, microprocessor boards, etc. So, if it;s a common design you
seek, you could have the same design for 120V gas and 240V electric,
just substitute a different transformer. Or use a transformer with
multiple taps that would support either. However, I think the
design differences between a gas dryer and an electric one are so
substantial that you would have so many other design differences that
it would render the point moot anyway.

On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 18:37:09 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Sep 17, 3:12*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sep 17, 2:51*pm, wrote:





On Sep 17, 11:53*am, keith wrote:

On Sep 17, 10:08*am, wrote:

On Sep 17, 10:33*am, bud-- wrote:

RBM wrote:
"The Henchman" wrote in message
...

"Wayne Whitney" wrote in message
...
On 2010-09-17, Steve Barker wrote:

actually, anything with a motor should not be plugged into a gfci.
Outdated conventional wisdom.

Current version: motor appliance manufacturers need to build their
motors so that the leakage current is low enough not to trip a 5ma
GFCI. *I think the UL standard may be 0.5ma allowable leakage current,
not sure.

Cheers, Wayne
GE's email response seem to focus on the gas igniters of their appliance
more than anything maybe maybe that's because they custom answered my
question.

Here's a question for you. * *I have a 15 amp outdoor gfi outlet that I
want to use power tools on such as 13 amp table saws and 15 cicrular saws
and the like. * what potential leak to ground can be from those motors?

If they're in proper working condition, there shouldn't be any. This is also
Wayne's point, at least in the US, the manufacturers are responsible for
building their stuff to the latest safety standards, so they will work
reliably with gfci protection

Or, conversely, the code probably wouldn't be changed to not work with
the way equipment is built.

I agree with RBM and Wayne.

Temporary receptacles at construction sites generally have to be GFCI
protected. The power tools used by construction workers better not trip
a GFCI.

Receptacles for 15/20A 120V refrigerators and freezers in commercial
kitchens have to be GFCI protected.

It would be easy to construct a spark ignitor on the secondary of a
transformer, so there is no ground leakage on the supply wires.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Or just use a hot surface ignitor. *I don't see why an appliance
manufacturer can't build a dryer within leakage current limits of GFCI
either.

They can, if the customer uses a 4-wire connection. *Otherwise, any
120V stuff in the dryer is connected to ground and there will be (a
lot of) leakage. *3-Wire (hot, hot, ground) used to be code, but now 4-
wire connections (hot-hot-neutral-ground) are required where any 120V
circuits are used. *The 3-wire connections are grandfathered for
existing structures.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In the context of the discussion, clearly it's a gas dryer we're
talking about that uses 120V. * *But broadening the discussion, why
does there have to be any 120V "stuff" in a dryer, including a 240V
electric one? *I see you're point regarding backward compatibility to
an existing 3 wire dryer circuit. *But in any dryer there is a heating
element if it's an electric one, a motor, and some control
circuitry. * I can design all of that using just 240V. *The only thing
I can think of that would ordinarily be a 120v load would be a light
inside the dryer. * But it would seem someone must make a 240V
appliance bulb, no?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Bulb, "I'm done" Buzzer, Timer/Control, LEDs, Liquid Crystal display,
things that go 'beep" when you turn the knob, etc.

While all of them can be implemented with 240V, I'll bet it's cheaper
to design and implement for 120V and then use the same circuity for
both gas and electric.

You gotta have 120V dryers for those of us who use gas and don't have
240V in the laundry area.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Most of the stuff on that list, ie LEDs, display, beepers, etc aren't
powered by 240V or 120V anyway. You have a transformer that powers
them, microprocessor boards, etc. So, if it;s a common design you
seek, you could have the same design for 120V gas and 240V electric,
just substitute a different transformer. Or use a transformer with
multiple taps that would support either.

With a switching power supply you wouldn't even need that. However, there are
still basic models out there.

However, I think the
design differences between a gas dryer and an electric one are so
substantial that you would have so many other design differences that
it would render the point moot anyway.

No, they really aren't all that different. Were I to design one of these I'd
make every attempt to make the controls identical. This reduces costs of
engineering, manufacturing, and inventory (all the way to the consumer). We
make several products with the exact same hardware. We'd certainly do it with
products that are as close to each other as gas/electric dryers.