I am running new plumbing lines in the basement of a 3-unit apartment
building that I own. The purpose of the re-plumbing is to separate out the
water service for each unit. All of the existing plumbing is copper. The
hot and cold copper lines that go to each individual apartment are easily
accessible in the basement, so separating out the water service for each
apartment will be easy because all I will need to do is tie into the copper
lines for each apartment in the ceiling of the basement.

I don't want to use copper, and I think I am probably not going to go with
PEX. My plan right now is to use CPVC pipe and fittings for all of the new
plumbing and to tie that into the existing copper lines for each apartment.

One question I have is whether to use all CPVC, or use CPVC for the hot
water lines and PVC for the cold water lines. My inclination is to use all
CPVC rather than try to save a few bucks on materials by using PVC for the
cold water lines. Does that make sense? Is there any reason NOT to just
use all CPVC instead of trying to use both CPVC and PVC, other than the cost
of materials?

I also have questions about how to connect the CPVC to the existing copper
lines. I can easily solder female threaded adapters to the ends of the
existing copper lines and use male threaded CPVC adapters to make the
connections. But, I think there may be a problem with doing that for hot
water connections due to possible variations in expansion of the two
materials and, therefore, possible future leaks at the connections. I have
seen the Sharkbite and Watts push-on connection adapters but they make me
nervous in terms of how secure the connections would be. And, I believe
there are copper to CPVC adapters that either screw onto, or get soldered to
(I am not sure about that), the copper and then are glued to the CPVC pipe.

I would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions on how to best make the
connections from the CPVC to the existing copper.

And, any thoughts, suggestions, pointers etc. regarding the whole CPVC (or
CPVC and PVC) project would also be appreciated.

Thanks.

On Sep 15, 11:08*am, "RogerT" wrote:
I am running new plumbing lines in the basement of a 3-unit apartment
building that I own. *The purpose of the re-plumbing is to separate out the
water service for each unit. *All of the existing plumbing is copper. *The
hot and cold copper lines that go to each individual apartment are easily
accessible in the basement, so separating out the water service for each
apartment will be easy because all I will need to do is tie into the copper
lines for each apartment in the ceiling of the basement.

I don't want to use copper, and I think I am probably not going to go with
PEX. *My plan right now is to use CPVC pipe and fittings for all of the new
plumbing and to tie that into the existing copper lines for each apartment.

RogerT wrote:
I am running new plumbing lines in the basement of a 3-unit apartment
building that I own. The purpose of the re-plumbing is to separate
out the water service for each unit. All of the existing plumbing is
copper. The hot and cold copper lines that go to each individual
apartment are easily accessible in the basement, so separating out
the water service for each apartment will be easy because all I will
need to do is tie into the copper lines for each apartment in the
ceiling of the basement.
I don't want to use copper, and I think I am probably not going to go
with PEX. My plan right now is to use CPVC pipe and fittings for all
of the new plumbing and to tie that into the existing copper lines
for each apartment.
One question I have is whether to use all CPVC, or use CPVC for the
hot water lines and PVC for the cold water lines. My inclination is
to use all CPVC rather than try to save a few bucks on materials by
using PVC for the cold water lines. Does that make sense? Is there
any reason NOT to just use all CPVC instead of trying to use both
CPVC and PVC, other than the cost of materials?

I also have questions about how to connect the CPVC to the existing
copper lines. I can easily solder female threaded adapters to the
ends of the existing copper lines and use male threaded CPVC adapters
to make the connections. But, I think there may be a problem with
doing that for hot water connections due to possible variations in
expansion of the two materials and, therefore, possible future leaks
at the connections. I have seen the Sharkbite and Watts push-on
connection adapters but they make me nervous in terms of how secure
the connections would be. And, I believe there are copper to CPVC
adapters that either screw onto, or get soldered to (I am not sure
about that), the copper and then are glued to the CPVC pipe.

The last sentence describes what I'd use. Typically, a male copper thread with
glue on CPVC female fitting. It probably provides a much better connection than
a CPVC thread.

I would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions on how to best make the
connections from the CPVC to the existing copper.

And, any thoughts, suggestions, pointers etc. regarding the whole
CPVC (or CPVC and PVC) project would also be appreciated.

I would stick with the copper myself. If not, think about grounding
requirements.

Bob F wrote:
RogerT wrote:
I am running new plumbing lines in the basement of a 3-unit apartment
.........
the connections would be. And, I believe there are copper to CPVC
adapters that either screw onto, or get soldered to (I am not sure
about that), the copper and then are glued to the CPVC pipe.

The last sentence describes what I'd use. Typically, a male copper
thread with glue on CPVC female fitting. It probably provides a much
better connection than a CPVC thread.

Thanks. I'm not sure if that would work. I read somewhere that there can
be problems with the female CPVC threaded fittings cracking when tightening
and that using male CPVC threaded lessens the chances of cracking.

I just went to Lowes and saw some "transition unions" that can be soldered
to the copper and then use a compression fitting (similar to a garden hose
connection/washer) that converts to a CPVC glue fitting. Here's a link with
some of those types of fittings:
http://milo.com/nibco-34-in-cpvc-tra...brass-and-cpvc .

And, any thoughts, suggestions, pointers etc. regarding the whole
CPVC (or CPVC and PVC) project would also be appreciated.

I would stick with the copper myself. If not, think about grounding
requirements.

The 3-unit building has all new electric wiring throughout. And 4 new
service panels (one for each unit and one "house" panel) were installed by a
licensed electrican with all the rquired permits, final inspection, etc.
The new service panels utilize the current code requirements including two
8-fot grounding rods located 6 feet apart; the required jumpers across the
hot water heaters, and the water meter, etc. So the electrical system does
not rely on any cold water pipe grounding. I think the new codes take into
account that people now use PEX, PVC, etc. which would make cold water pipe
grounding not reliable since there can be in the continuity of the pipes.

Joe wrote:
On Sep 15, 12:15 pm, "Bob F" wrote:

snip

The grounding/safety long term service requirements favor copper.
Tenants can do unbelievable things to facilities, so saving a few $$
doesn't make sense.

Joe

See my earlier reply regarding the electric/grounding issue.

RogerT wrote:
Bob F wrote:
RogerT wrote:
I am running new plumbing lines in the basement of a 3-unit apartment
........
the connections would be. And, I believe there are copper to CPVC
adapters that either screw onto, or get soldered to (I am not sure
about that), the copper and then are glued to the CPVC pipe.
The last sentence describes what I'd use. Typically, a male copper
thread with glue on CPVC female fitting. It probably provides a much
better connection than a CPVC thread.

Thanks. I'm not sure if that would work. I read somewhere that there can
be problems with the female CPVC threaded fittings cracking when tightening
and that using male CPVC threaded lessens the chances of cracking.

I just went to Lowes and saw some "transition unions" that can be soldered
to the copper and then use a compression fitting (similar to a garden hose
connection/washer) that converts to a CPVC glue fitting. Here's a link with
some of those types of fittings:
http://milo.com/nibco-34-in-cpvc-tra...brass-and-cpvc .

And, any thoughts, suggestions, pointers etc. regarding the whole
CPVC (or CPVC and PVC) project would also be appreciated.
I would stick with the copper myself. If not, think about grounding
requirements.

The 3-unit building has all new electric wiring throughout. And 4 new
service panels (one for each unit and one "house" panel) were installed by a
licensed electrican with all the rquired permits, final inspection, etc.
The new service panels utilize the current code requirements including two
8-fot grounding rods located 6 feet apart; the required jumpers across the
hot water heaters, and the water meter, etc. So the electrical system does
not rely on any cold water pipe grounding. I think the new codes take into
account that people now use PEX, PVC, etc. which would make cold water pipe
grounding not reliable since there can be in the continuity of the pipes.


I'd go with the CPVC only on the half inch stuff. That's what I did
for most of my plumbing. The PVC is a little larger diameter so you
will get more volume for the same size if there might be a problem with
adequate flow in a cold water "main feed" system. Sounds like a rent
place? Large manifold pipe for supply, cutoffs to the individual units
etc. And when I had rentals I always kept the battery for the sawsall
charged, a metal cutting blade and various caps and plugs so I could cut
into a pipe and cap or plug it until a permanent fix could be done. For
transition from metal to plastic I usually screwed a threaded plastic
male into the female metal threads and then glued the plastic from
there. In your case a soldered female copper and then a male plastic.
That way if you need to you can cut the plastic line and unscrew it at
the transition. I never had it happen but supposedly the hot water can
back flow if a HWT over heats and flow enough hot water through PVC
under pressure to cause problems on the cold water side of a HWT.
Be sure to use only code approved CPVC glue for long, hopefully
forever trouble free joints and connections.

On Sep 16, 3:33*am, FatterDumber& Happier Moe
wrote:
RogerT wrote:
Bob F wrote:
RogerT wrote:
I am running new plumbing lines in the basement of a 3-unit apartment
........
the connections would be. *And, I believe there are copper to CPVC
adapters that either screw onto, or get soldered to (I am not sure
about that), the copper and then are glued to the CPVC pipe.
The last sentence describes what I'd use. Typically, a male copper
thread with glue on CPVC female fitting. It probably provides a much
better connection than a CPVC thread.

Thanks. *I'm not sure if that would work. *I read somewhere that there can
be problems with the female CPVC threaded fittings cracking when tightening
and that using male CPVC threaded lessens the chances of cracking.

I just went to Lowes and saw some "transition unions" that can be soldered
to the copper and then use a compression fitting (similar to a garden hose
connection/washer) that converts to a CPVC glue fitting. *Here's a link with
some of those types of fittings:
http://milo.com/nibco-34-in-cpvc-tra...brass-and-cpvc.

And, any thoughts, suggestions, pointers etc. regarding the whole
CPVC (or CPVC and PVC) project would also be appreciated.
I would stick with the copper myself. If not, think about grounding
requirements.

The 3-unit building has all new electric wiring throughout. *And 4 new
service panels (one for each unit and one "house" panel) were installed by a
licensed electrican with all the rquired permits, final inspection, etc..
The new service panels utilize the current code requirements including two
8-fot grounding rods located 6 feet apart; the required jumpers across the
hot water heaters, and the water meter, etc. *So the electrical system does
not rely on any cold water pipe grounding. *I think the new codes take into
account that people now use PEX, PVC, etc. which would make cold water pipe
grounding not reliable since there can be in the continuity of the pipes.

* I'd go with the CPVC only on the half inch stuff. *That's what I did
for most of my plumbing. *The PVC is a little larger diameter so you
will get more volume for the same size if there might be a problem with
adequate flow in a cold water "main feed" system. *Sounds like a rent
place? *Large manifold pipe for supply, cutoffs to the individual units
etc. *And when I had rentals I always kept the battery for the sawsall
charged, a metal cutting blade and various caps and plugs so I could cut
into a pipe and cap or plug it until a permanent fix could be done. *For
transition from metal to plastic I usually screwed a threaded plastic
male into the female metal threads and then glued the plastic from
there. * In your case a soldered female copper and then a male plastic.
* That way if you need to you can cut the plastic line and unscrew it at
the transition. *I never had it happen but supposedly the hot water can
back flow if a HWT over heats and flow enough hot water through PVC
under pressure to cause problems on the cold water side of a HWT.
* Be sure to use only code approved CPVC glue for long, hopefully
forever trouble free joints and connections.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Was just looking at some new construction here in NJ and they used
CPVC for both hot and cold. Which is what I would do instead of
using half PVC, if I were going that route.

RogerT wrote:
Bob F wrote:
RogerT wrote:

And, any thoughts, suggestions, pointers etc. regarding the whole
CPVC (or CPVC and PVC) project would also be appreciated.
I would stick with the copper myself. If not, think about grounding
requirements.

The 3-unit building has all new electric wiring throughout. And 4 new
service panels (one for each unit and one "house" panel) were installed by a
licensed electrican with all the rquired permits, final inspection, etc.
The new service panels utilize the current code requirements including two
8-fot grounding rods located 6 feet apart; the required jumpers across the
hot water heaters, and the water meter, etc. So the electrical system does
not rely on any cold water pipe grounding. I think the new codes take into
account that people now use PEX, PVC, etc. which would make cold water pipe
grounding not reliable since there can be in the continuity of the pipes.


For system "earthing", the NEC has for a very long time required that if
there is a metal water service pipe, at least 10 ft in the ground, it be
one of the earthing electrodes. It is far better than ground rods. For
many years the connection has had to be within 5 ft of where the pipe
enters the building, and the water meter must be bonded across. If you
have a metal water service pipe, the system depends on the cold water
pipe for a "ground". Sounds like that is what you have.

You used to be able to make a ground connection, such as adding a ground
to an existing receptacle, to a water pipe. That has not been allowed
for many years because, as you say, there may be plastic in the future.
Using plastic pipe inside the building is irrelevant for grounding.

--
bud--

bud-- wrote:
RogerT wrote:
Bob F wrote:
RogerT wrote:

And, any thoughts, suggestions, pointers etc. regarding the whole
CPVC (or CPVC and PVC) project would also be appreciated.
I would stick with the copper myself. If not, think about grounding
requirements.

The 3-unit building has all new electric wiring throughout. And 4
new service panels (one for each unit and one "house" panel) were
installed by a licensed electrican with all the rquired permits,
final inspection, etc. The new service panels utilize the current
code requirements including two 8-fot grounding rods located 6 feet
apart; the required jumpers across the hot water heaters, and the
water meter, etc. So the electrical system does not rely on any
cold water pipe grounding. I think the new codes take into account
that people now use PEX, PVC, etc. which would make cold water pipe
grounding not reliable since there can be in the continuity of the
pipes.

For system "earthing", the NEC has for a very long time required that
if there is a metal water service pipe, at least 10 ft in the ground,
it be one of the earthing electrodes. It is far better than ground
rods. For many years the connection has had to be within 5 ft of
where the pipe enters the building, and the water meter must be
bonded across. If you have a metal water service pipe, the system
depends on the cold water pipe for a "ground". Sounds like that is
what you have.

Thanks. I checked and, yes, that is what I have. The new service is
grounded to the metal cold water pipe where it comes in through the wall
(before the meter), there are jumpers across the water meter and hot water
heaters, and the system is also grounded to the two 8-foot grounding rods
that are 6 feet apart.

You used to be able to make a ground connection, such as adding a
ground to an existing receptacle, to a water pipe. That has not been
allowed for many years because, as you say, there may be plastic in
the future. Using plastic pipe inside the building is irrelevant for
grounding.

I am running new plumbing lines in the basement of a 3-unit apartment
building that I own.
I don't want to use copper, and I think I am probably not going to go
with PEX. My plan right now is to use CPVC pipe and fittings for all
of the new plumbing and to tie that into the existing copper lines for
each apartment.
One question I have is whether to use all CPVC, or use CPVC for the
hot water lines and PVC for the cold water lines. My inclination is
to use all CPVC rather than try to save a few bucks on materials by
using PVC for the cold water lines. Does that make sense? Is there
any reason NOT to just use all CPVC instead of trying to use both CPVC
and PVC, other than the cost of materials?

If I am remembering correctly, plumbing codes only allow standard PVC
for outdoor use (underground supply lines, irrigation, sprinklers, etc.).
You must use CPVC for indoor supply lines (both hot and cold).

CPVC offers a number of advantages over copper, including lower cost,
easier installation, better resistance to acidic water, no risk of
starting fires from soldering, not likely to be stolen by copper thieves,
etc.

I also have questions about how to connect the CPVC to the existing
copper lines. I can easily solder female threaded adapters to the
ends of the existing copper lines and use male threaded CPVC adapters
to make the connections. But, I think there may be a problem with
doing that for hot water connections due to possible variations in
expansion of the two materials and, therefore, possible future leaks
at the connections.

NEVER use a female fitting made of PVC or CPVC. They aren't allowed by
code and my own experience shows they have a nasty habit of cracking,
either during installation, or some time in the future. I'm not sure why
they even sell them.

You CAN use a male CPVC fitting threaded into a metal female fitting.
Just apply a few wraps of teflon tape before assembling, and don't go
crazy tightening it. I have done this many times, but as you mentioned,
you could potentially have problems later on as the two materials expand
at different rates. I would only use this approach if the connection were
accessable and I had no other option.

I plumbed our entire house using CPVC and transitioned to brass fittings
(drop ear elbows and whatnot) where needed using special transition
unions. Basically, these have a brass connection on one side, a CPVC
connection on the other, and a rubber gasket between the two. A threaded
ring tightens it all together. They're not cheap ($5 each if I'm
remembering correctly), but compensate for different expansion rates.
While they do make drop ear elbows out of CPVC, I would never trust
plastic for a stress situation (shutoff valves, shower heads, etc.).

In recent years I have seen one piece molded adapters, where a CPVC
fitting is molded around one end of a metal fitting. They seem to cost
less, but I have no experience with them to know how they hold up in the
long term.

And, any thoughts, suggestions, pointers etc. regarding the whole CPVC
(or CPVC and PVC) project would also be appreciated.

For 1/2" and 3/4" CPVC, pick up a plastic pipe cutter (looks like a
ratcheting pair of pliers). It's fast and makes nice clean cuts on the
pipes.

Remember to clean the pipe and fitting with primer (usually purple)
before applying the appropriate CPVC cement (usually orange). The colors
don't matter, but makes it easy for the inspector to see if you used the
appropriate solvents. It also helps you to visually double-check you
didn't skip a fitting anywhere (it happens).

Anthony

HerHusband wrote:

If I am remembering correctly, plumbing codes only allow standard PVC
for outdoor use (underground supply lines, irrigation, sprinklers,
etc.). You must use CPVC for indoor supply lines (both hot and cold).

Thanks. I think PVC is allowed for indoor cold water lines where I am
located (New Jersey). But, I'll double check that to be sure.

CPVC offers a number of advantages over copper, including lower cost,
easier installation, better resistance to acidic water, no risk of
starting fires from soldering, not likely to be stolen by copper
thieves, etc.

I agree.

NEVER use a female fitting made of PVC or CPVC. They aren't allowed by
code and my own experience shows they have a nasty habit of cracking,
either during installation, or some time in the future. I'm not sure
why they even sell them.

I think I also read that on the Charlotte brand piping website, and it makes
sense to me.

You CAN use a male CPVC fitting threaded into a metal female fitting.
Just apply a few wraps of teflon tape before assembling, and don't go
crazy tightening it. I have done this many times, but as you
mentioned, you could potentially have problems later on as the two
materials expand at different rates. I would only use this approach
if the connection were accessable and I had no other option.

I plumbed our entire house using CPVC and transitioned to brass
fittings (drop ear elbows and whatnot) where needed using special
transition unions. Basically, these have a brass connection on one
side, a CPVC connection on the other, and a rubber gasket between the
two. A threaded ring tightens it all together. They're not cheap
($5 each if I'm remembering correctly), but compensate for different
expansion rates.

I did find those transition unions at places like Home Depot and Lowes and I
think that's what I am going to use. They come apart so the copper/brass
side can be soldered to the existing copper pipe. Then the CPVC or PVC side
gets reconnected as you described and the threaded fitting tightens down on
the rubber gasket.

For 1/2" and 3/4" CPVC, pick up a plastic pipe cutter (looks like a
ratcheting pair of pliers). It's fast and makes nice clean cuts on
the pipes.

I did see the ratchet-type CPVC/PVC pipe cutters when doing Internet
searches. I'm going to get one for sure. I will be using 1" for each of
the 3 supply lines, then branching off to 3/4" and 1/2" piping where
appropriate. I am guessing that the ratcher/cutter tool may not be a good
idea for the 1" lines due to the possibility of cracking the pipe while
cutting. So, I'll probably use a tubing cutter or saw/Sawzall for the 1"
pipes.

RogerT wrote:
HerHusband wrote:

If I am remembering correctly, plumbing codes only allow standard PVC
for outdoor use (underground supply lines, irrigation, sprinklers,
etc.). You must use CPVC for indoor supply lines (both hot and cold).

Thanks. I think PVC is allowed for indoor cold water lines where I am
located (New Jersey). But, I'll double check that to be sure.

CPVC offers a number of advantages over copper, including lower cost,
easier installation, better resistance to acidic water, no risk of
starting fires from soldering, not likely to be stolen by copper
thieves, etc.

I agree.

NEVER use a female fitting made of PVC or CPVC. They aren't allowed
by code and my own experience shows they have a nasty habit of
cracking, either during installation, or some time in the future. I'm not
sure why they even sell them.

I think I also read that on the Charlotte brand piping website, and
it makes sense to me.

You CAN use a male CPVC fitting threaded into a metal female fitting.
Just apply a few wraps of teflon tape before assembling, and don't go
crazy tightening it. I have done this many times, but as you
mentioned, you could potentially have problems later on as the two
materials expand at different rates. I would only use this approach
if the connection were accessable and I had no other option.

I plumbed our entire house using CPVC and transitioned to brass
fittings (drop ear elbows and whatnot) where needed using special
transition unions. Basically, these have a brass connection on one
side, a CPVC connection on the other, and a rubber gasket between the
two. A threaded ring tightens it all together. They're not cheap
($5 each if I'm remembering correctly), but compensate for different
expansion rates.

I did find those transition unions at places like Home Depot and
Lowes and I think that's what I am going to use. They come apart so
the copper/brass side can be soldered to the existing copper pipe. Then
the CPVC or PVC side gets reconnected as you described and the
threaded fitting tightens down on the rubber gasket.

For 1/2" and 3/4" CPVC, pick up a plastic pipe cutter (looks like a
ratcheting pair of pliers). It's fast and makes nice clean cuts on
the pipes.

I did see the ratchet-type CPVC/PVC pipe cutters when doing Internet
searches. I'm going to get one for sure. I will be using 1" for
each of the 3 supply lines, then branching off to 3/4" and 1/2"
piping where appropriate. I am guessing that the ratcher/cutter tool
may not be a good idea for the 1" lines due to the possibility of
cracking the pipe while cutting. So, I'll probably use a tubing
cutter or saw/Sawzall for the 1" pipes.

i've used a ratchet type scissors on 1" pipe ok.

Roger,

If I am remembering correctly, plumbing codes only allow standard PVC
for outdoor use (underground supply lines, irrigation, sprinklers,
etc.). You must use CPVC for indoor supply lines (both hot and cold).

Thanks. I think PVC is allowed for indoor cold water lines where I am
located (New Jersey). But, I'll double check that to be sure.

After reading the replies to my post, I had to look it up in my old "Code
Check Plumbing" manual (I recommend you get the latest release of this
reference book!).

PVC is permitted for "Service" lines (underground supply coming into the
house), but NOT for interior distribution.

CPVC is allowed for all situations.

My Code Check book is a few years old now, but the codes referenced a

[IRC T2904.4.1] and (UPC 604.1)

I also found a few discussions mentioning this limitation with a quick
Google search:

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f22/cpvc-and-pvc-16677/

http://www.homerepairforum.com/forum...-pvc-pipe.html

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f22/pvc-pipe-12663/

I'm sure you could find additional references with more searching, but
bottom line regular PVC is no longer allowed for plumbing runs inside the
building.

Your local codes may override this, but from a practical standpoint it's
easier to do everything with one type of pipe rather than stocking up on
two different kinds of fittings.

NEVER use a female fitting made of PVC or CPVC. They aren't allowed
by code and my own experience shows they have a nasty habit of
cracking, either during installation, or some time in the future.

I think I also read that on the Charlotte brand piping website, and it
makes sense to me.

I "did" use some female fittings years ago when I installed a washer hookup
in a mobile home. No leaks at the time, but a year or so later the fitting
cracked along the seam and caused water damage to the floor. Code or not, I
learned my lesson not to use threaded plastic female fittings.

I did see the ratchet-type CPVC/PVC pipe cutters when doing Internet
searches. I'm going to get one for sure. I will be using 1" for each
of the 3 supply lines, then branching off to 3/4" and 1/2" piping
where appropriate. I am guessing that the ratcher/cutter tool may not
be a good idea for the 1" lines due to the possibility of cracking the
pipe while cutting.

You can find the pipe cutters at Home Depot or Lowes, and most will work
fine with 1" pipe also.

For larger pipe (i.e. 1-1/2" and larger DWV pipes) I prefer to use my power
miter saw when possible to ensure a straight accurate cut. But, I made
most of my cuts with a hacksaw as it was more convenient when crawling
around in the crawlspace. Remember to remove the burrs from cutting with a
knife before gluing up the joint.

Anthony

HerHusband wrote:

After reading the replies to my post, I had to look it up in my old
"Code Check Plumbing" manual (I recommend you get the latest release
of this reference book!).

PVC is permitted for "Service" lines (underground supply coming into
the house), but NOT for interior distribution.

CPVC is allowed for all situations.

My Code Check book is a few years old now, but the codes referenced
a

[IRC T2904.4.1] and (UPC 604.1)

I also found a few discussions mentioning this limitation with a quick
Google search:

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f22/cpvc-and-pvc-16677/

http://www.homerepairforum.com/forum...-pvc-pipe.html

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f22/pvc-pipe-12663/


Anthony,

Thanks so much. That is VERY interesting information.

I checked out the 3 links you provided and I did more searching for the
actual codes. It looks like you are absolutely correct -- PVC is allowed
for water supply --, but for water distribution WITHIN a dwelling unit, PVC
is not allowed. From the links you provided, it appears that PVC for cold
water distribution within a dwelling unit used to be allowed but now is no
longer allowed.

I looked up the 2009 IRC online and here are 5 links to the actual code:


http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...005_par007.htm



http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...005_par010.htm



http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...005_par017.htm



http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...005_par018.htm



http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...005_par035.htm



One caveat is that this 2009 IRC says it is for One and Two-Family
residential dwellings. Mine is a 3-Family. I haven't found a specific code
yet for that, but my hunch (hope) is that using all CPVC for what I am doing
will be okay.

I also haven't found the exact UPC 604.1 online yet, but one of the links
you provided quoted from that and it said the same thing about CPVC being
okay and PVC not being okay for water distribution within a dwelling unit.

So, I'll still be doing some more checking online, but I can see for now
that using PVC will not be allowable for the water distribution system.

P.S. I just found the 2009 UPC online and it appears to be the same as the
2009 IRC regarding types of piping allowed for water distribution within a
dwelling (that is, CPVC is okay, PVC is not). Here is the link:

http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...-P-2009-000019




RogerT wrote:
HerHusband wrote:

After reading the replies to my post, I had to look it up in my old
"Code Check Plumbing" manual (I recommend you get the latest release
of this reference book!).

PVC is permitted for "Service" lines (underground supply coming into
the house), but NOT for interior distribution.

CPVC is allowed for all situations.

My Code Check book is a few years old now, but the codes referenced
a

[IRC T2904.4.1] and (UPC 604.1)

I also found a few discussions mentioning this limitation with a
quick Google search:

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f22/cpvc-and-pvc-16677/

http://www.homerepairforum.com/forum...-pvc-pipe.html

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f22/pvc-pipe-12663/


Anthony,

Thanks so much. That is VERY interesting information.

I checked out the 3 links you provided and I did more searching for
the actual codes. It looks like you are absolutely correct -- PVC is
allowed for water supply --, but for water distribution WITHIN a
dwelling unit, PVC is not allowed. From the links you provided, it
appears that PVC for cold water distribution within a dwelling unit
used to be allowed but now is no longer allowed.

I looked up the 2009 IRC online and here are 5 links to the actual
code:

http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...005_par007.htm



http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...005_par010.htm



http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...005_par017.htm



http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...005_par018.htm



http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...005_par035.htm



One caveat is that this 2009 IRC says it is for One and Two-Family
residential dwellings. Mine is a 3-Family. I haven't found a
specific code yet for that, but my hunch (hope) is that using all
CPVC for what I am doing will be okay.

I also haven't found the exact UPC 604.1 online yet, but one of the
links you provided quoted from that and it said the same thing about
CPVC being okay and PVC not being okay for water distribution within
a dwelling unit.
So, I'll still be doing some more checking online, but I can see for
now that using PVC will not be allowable for the water distribution
system.

RogerT wrote:
P.S. I just found the 2009 UPC online and it appears to be the same as the
2009 IRC regarding types of piping allowed for water distribution within a
dwelling (that is, CPVC is okay, PVC is not). Here is the link:

http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...-P-2009-000019




RogerT wrote:
HerHusband wrote:
After reading the replies to my post, I had to look it up in my old
"Code Check Plumbing" manual (I recommend you get the latest release
of this reference book!).

PVC is permitted for "Service" lines (underground supply coming into
the house), but NOT for interior distribution.

CPVC is allowed for all situations.

My Code Check book is a few years old now, but the codes referenced
a

[IRC T2904.4.1] and (UPC 604.1)

I also found a few discussions mentioning this limitation with a
quick Google search:

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f22/cpvc-and-pvc-16677/

http://www.homerepairforum.com/forum...-pvc-pipe.html

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f22/pvc-pipe-12663/

Anthony,

Thanks so much. That is VERY interesting information.

I checked out the 3 links you provided and I did more searching for
the actual codes. It looks like you are absolutely correct -- PVC is
allowed for water supply --, but for water distribution WITHIN a
dwelling unit, PVC is not allowed. From the links you provided, it
appears that PVC for cold water distribution within a dwelling unit
used to be allowed but now is no longer allowed.

I looked up the 2009 IRC online and here are 5 links to the actual
code:

http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...005_par007.htm



http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...005_par010.htm



http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...005_par017.htm



http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...005_par018.htm



http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...005_par035.htm



One caveat is that this 2009 IRC says it is for One and Two-Family
residential dwellings. Mine is a 3-Family. I haven't found a
specific code yet for that, but my hunch (hope) is that using all
CPVC for what I am doing will be okay.

I also haven't found the exact UPC 604.1 online yet, but one of the
links you provided quoted from that and it said the same thing about
CPVC being okay and PVC not being okay for water distribution within
a dwelling unit.
So, I'll still be doing some more checking online, but I can see for
now that using PVC will not be allowable for the water distribution
system.



Is this thing going to be inspected by whatever authority has
authority over it? If so you better be getting with them before doing
anything, they will probably require this job to be done by a licensed
plumber, and the inspector would have the final say on what is and isn't
allowed.
What are you going to do with the old copper? It's up again and worth
taking to the scrap dealer.
http://www.barchart.com/charts/futures/HGZ10

On Sep 18, 4:36*am, FatterDumber& Happier Moe
wrote:
RogerT wrote:
P.S. *I just found the 2009 UPC online and it appears to be the same as the
2009 IRC regarding types of piping allowed for water distribution within a
dwelling (that is, CPVC is okay, PVC is not). *Here is the link:

http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico..._2009_6_sec005...

RogerT wrote:
HerHusband wrote:
After reading the replies to my post, I had to look it up in my old
"Code Check Plumbing" manual (I recommend you get the latest release
of this reference book!).

PVC is permitted for "Service" lines (underground supply coming into
the house), but NOT for interior distribution.

CPVC is allowed for all situations.

My Code Check book is a few years old now, but the codes referenced
a

[IRC T2904.4.1] *and *(UPC 604.1)

I also found a few discussions mentioning this limitation with a
quick Google search:

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f22/cpvc-and-pvc-16677/

http://www.homerepairforum.com/forum...-pvc-pipe.html

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f22/pvc-pipe-12663/

Anthony,

Thanks so much. *That is VERY interesting information.

I checked out the 3 links you provided and I did more searching for
the actual codes. *It looks like you are absolutely correct -- PVC is
allowed for water supply --, but for water distribution WITHIN a
dwelling unit, PVC is not allowed. *From the links you provided, it
appears that PVC for cold water distribution within a dwelling unit
used to be allowed but now is no longer allowed.

I looked up the 2009 IRC online and here are 5 links to the actual
code:

http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico..._2009_29_sec00....

http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico..._2009_29_sec00....

http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico..._2009_29_sec00....

http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico..._2009_29_sec00....

http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico..._2009_29_sec00....

One caveat is that this 2009 IRC says it is for One and Two-Family
residential dwellings. *Mine is a 3-Family. *I haven't found a
specific code yet for that, but my hunch (hope) is that using all
CPVC for what I am doing will be okay.

I also haven't found the exact UPC 604.1 online yet, but one of the
links you provided quoted from that and it said the same thing about
CPVC being okay and PVC not being okay for water distribution within
a dwelling unit.
So, I'll still be doing some more checking online, but I can see for
now that using PVC will not be allowable for the water distribution
system.

* Is this thing going to be inspected by whatever authority has
authority over it? *If so you better be getting with them before doing
anything, they will probably require this job to be done by a licensed
plumber, and the inspector would have the final say on what is and isn't
allowed.
* What are you going to do with the old copper? *It's up again and worth
taking to the scrap dealer.http://www.barchart.com/charts/futures/HGZ10- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Why doesnt OP not want to use PEX??

Its cheap, easy to work with, going with all home runs from fixture to
manifold means theres no fittings buried in walls to leak. ands all
home runs makes isolating a problem easy......

PEX has no downsides and all advantages

On Sep 18, 4:36*am, FatterDumber& Happier Moe
wrote:
RogerT wrote:
P.S. *I just found the 2009 UPC online and it appears to be the same as the
2009 IRC regarding types of piping allowed for water distribution within a
dwelling (that is, CPVC is okay, PVC is not). *Here is the link:

http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico..._2009_6_sec005...

RogerT wrote:
HerHusband wrote:
After reading the replies to my post, I had to look it up in my old
"Code Check Plumbing" manual (I recommend you get the latest release
of this reference book!).

PVC is permitted for "Service" lines (underground supply coming into
the house), but NOT for interior distribution.

CPVC is allowed for all situations.

My Code Check book is a few years old now, but the codes referenced
a

[IRC T2904.4.1] *and *(UPC 604.1)

I also found a few discussions mentioning this limitation with a
quick Google search:

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f22/cpvc-and-pvc-16677/

http://www.homerepairforum.com/forum...-pvc-pipe.html

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f22/pvc-pipe-12663/

Anthony,

Thanks so much. *That is VERY interesting information.

I checked out the 3 links you provided and I did more searching for
the actual codes. *It looks like you are absolutely correct -- PVC is
allowed for water supply --, but for water distribution WITHIN a
dwelling unit, PVC is not allowed. *From the links you provided, it
appears that PVC for cold water distribution within a dwelling unit
used to be allowed but now is no longer allowed.

I looked up the 2009 IRC online and here are 5 links to the actual
code:

http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico..._2009_29_sec00....

http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico..._2009_29_sec00....

http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico..._2009_29_sec00....

http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico..._2009_29_sec00....

http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico..._2009_29_sec00....

One caveat is that this 2009 IRC says it is for One and Two-Family
residential dwellings. *Mine is a 3-Family. *I haven't found a
specific code yet for that, but my hunch (hope) is that using all
CPVC for what I am doing will be okay.

I also haven't found the exact UPC 604.1 online yet, but one of the
links you provided quoted from that and it said the same thing about
CPVC being okay and PVC not being okay for water distribution within
a dwelling unit.
So, I'll still be doing some more checking online, but I can see for
now that using PVC will not be allowable for the water distribution
system.

* Is this thing going to be inspected by whatever authority has
authority over it? *If so you better be getting with them before doing
anything, they will probably require this job to be done by a licensed
plumber, and the inspector would have the final say on what is and isn't
allowed.
* What are you going to do with the old copper? *It's up again and worth
taking to the scrap dealer.http://www.barchart.com/charts/futures/HGZ10- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Your original idea about using all cpvc is ok. I have used the
sharkbite connectors and have not had a problem. They are expensive
but I used a couple in a situation where I had to transition from cpvc
to pex. It would save you from having to do any soldering. Otherwise
I would go with a solder on female threaded coupler and a male pvc
threaded coupler. It's better to make the cpvc side male.

If you plan on getting this inspected I suggest you take some
pictures. Draw out what you plan to do and make a materials list.
When you pull the permit go first thing in the morning and see if you
can meet with the inspector. Don't wait until later in the day as
they will all be out. That way you will find out right then if they
are going to have a problem with you using cpvc.

As to copper I would probably do what you are planning with copper
myself. I'm guessing you have one large hot water heater and you plan
to switch to three smaller hot water heaters? Are you switchng to
three meters as well? If all this is happening in one general area of
the basement then the copper is not going to cost you that much. I
have a house and a condo with copper and another house with cpvc. I
have continued to use the existing material in each. Meters are
pretty cheap on ebay if that's in your plan btw.

jamesgangnc wrote:

Your original idea about using all cpvc is ok. I have used the
sharkbite connectors and have not had a problem. They are expensive
but I used a couple in a situation where I had to transition from cpvc
to pex. It would save you from having to do any soldering. Otherwise
I would go with a solder on female threaded coupler and a male pvc
threaded coupler. It's better to make the cpvc side male.....

Thanks. I was thinking of doing it that way but one of the codes I found
(
http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...005_par035.htm )
seems to indicate that only approved adapters that are made for transitions
from one type of material to another are allowed. I am not sure if I am
reading that correctly. However, since they do make adapter fittings
(transition unions, I think) that are specifically made for going from CPVC
to copper, I'll probably use those.

..... I'm guessing you have one large hot water heater and you plan
to switch to three smaller hot water heaters? Are you switchng to
three meters as well?

The property already has 3 separate hot water heaters and 3 separate
boiler/furnaces -- one of each for each apartment. So, I will be changing
from the one meter that is there now to 3 water meters -- one for each unit.

wrote:

Why doesnt OP not want to use PEX??

Its cheap, easy to work with, going with all home runs from fixture to
manifold means theres no fittings buried in walls to leak. ands all
home runs makes isolating a problem easy......

PEX has no downsides and all advantages

I was originally planning on using PEX. But, in this case, I decided
against it.

The way the layout is set up, it turns out that it wouldn't make sense to
try to do manifolds and a home-run type of setup. One reason is that the
existing plumbing goes up through the walls etc. to each apartment and it
wouldn't be practical to try to do new home runs to each fixture.

It also turns out that the cold water coming into the property is in the
front of the building and the utility room where the 3 hot water heaters and
3 boiler/furnaces are located is in the back of the building. And, all of
the fixtures for each apartment are in the middle. So, rather than running
the supply from the front to the back, and putting in 6 manifolds there (3
hot and 3 cold) for home runs, I decided to use a more traditional plumbing
layout.

And, another reason for not using PEX is that there are some sharp turns
required in a space where PEX bends would not fit. And, if I did the PEX
with fittings etc. to make the turns, the cost of all of that would be a lot
more than just using CPVC pipe and CPVC fittings.

RogerT wrote:
I am running new plumbing lines in the basement of a 3-unit apartment
building that I own. The purpose of the re-plumbing is to separate
out the water service for each unit. All of the existing plumbing is
copper. . . .

. . . . My plan right now is to use CPVC pipe and fittings for all
of the new plumbing and to tie that into the existing copper lines
for each apartment. . . . .

And, any thoughts, suggestions, pointers etc. regarding the whole
CPVC (or CPVC and PVC) project would also be appreciated.

Thanks everyone. Final update -- we finished the project last night using
all CPVC pipe and fittings plus the transition adapters to connect the CPVC
to the existing copper. It worked out great and now the water is completely
separated out for each apartment unit as planned.

I am REALLY appreciative of those who pointed out that the code no longer
allows for PVC for cold water distribution within the dewlling, and that
CPVC is now required for both cold and hot distribution lines. So, we went
with all CPVC and we used the one-step yellow no-cleaning-solvent-required
type of CPVC glue.

On Sep 15, 11:08*am, "RogerT" wrote:


And, any thoughts, suggestions, pointers etc. regarding the whole CPVC (or
CPVC and PVC) project would also be appreciated.

Thanks.

I had some sticks of CPVC left over from a project about 10 years
ago. They were stored inside my shop. When I went to use them for
another project this week, I found that they had turned brittle, to
the point that PVC cutters would shatter them rather than cut thru
them. Don't know what this says about installed CPVC other than I
hope I never have to splice into an older install.

I had some sticks of CPVC left over from a project about 10 years
ago. They were stored inside my shop. When I went to use them for
another project this week, I found that they had turned brittle, to
the point that PVC cutters would shatter them rather than cut thru
them. Don't know what this says about installed CPVC other than I
hope I never have to splice into an older install.

Were your pipes exposed to sunlight? If I remember correctly, CPVC does not
have UV protection, which would probably cause the pipe to break down in
sunlight. (Grey PVC conduit does have UV protection).

On Sep 29, 10:03*am, HerHusband wrote:
I had some sticks of CPVC left over from a project about 10 years
ago. *They were stored inside my shop. *When I went to use them for
another project this week, I found that they had turned brittle, to
the point that PVC cutters would shatter them rather than cut thru
them. *Don't know what this says about installed CPVC other than I
hope I never have to splice into an older install.

Were your pipes exposed to sunlight? If I remember correctly, CPVC does not
have UV protection, which would probably cause the pipe to break down in
sunlight. (Grey PVC conduit does have UV protection).

I agree. Sounds like it was exposed to uv. I have cpvc in my lake
house. It's 8 years old and it cuts fine.

On Sep 29, 7:48*am, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Sep 29, 10:03*am, HerHusband wrote:

I had some sticks of CPVC left over from a project about 10 years
ago. *They were stored inside my shop. *When I went to use them for
another project this week, I found that they had turned brittle, to
the point that PVC cutters would shatter them rather than cut thru
them. *Don't know what this says about installed CPVC other than I
hope I never have to splice into an older install.

Were your pipes exposed to sunlight? If I remember correctly, CPVC does not
have UV protection, which would probably cause the pipe to break down in
sunlight. (Grey PVC conduit does have UV protection).

I agree. *Sounds like it was exposed to uv. *I have cpvc in my lake
house. *It's 8 years old and it cuts fine.

Mine is around 25-30 years old, no problems.

Harry K