I have two 36 volt, 20 amp golf-cart chargers that no one else in town
would be interested in repairing. One broke ten years ago, one two
weeks ago, and the business which owns them have already bought a new
one, and told me I could throw the old ones away.

Do you think it would have any other use for someone who didn't own a
golf-cart, like me?

I'm sort of curious what's inside that might be different from any
other charger -- it's fancier than my 1 amp and my 10 amp, with
circuits to turn it off at full charge, to time how long it charged
before that, etc. -- plus I just generally hate to throw things away.

One of them flashes numbers it shouldn't flash, and one was just dead
iirc when they plugged it in. I'm thinking this second one might be
easier to fix, but it seems to depend on being connected to a set of
three car batteries in series to turn on, even when it is working.
Maybe I can connect three 12 volt UPS /
home-burglar-alarm-backup-batteries and get the same effect, or maybe
it will overcharge them if it ever works???

They weigh about 20 pounds each, 8w x 7d x 10h inches and have a
handle. Plus it sells for about 600 dollars locally and 300 and up
online. A shame to throw it away.

On Aug 14, 7:23*pm, mm wrote:
I have two 36 volt, 20 amp golf-cart chargers that no one else in town
would be interested in repairing. * One broke ten years ago, one two
weeks ago, and the business which owns them have already bought a new
one, and told me I could throw the old ones away.

Do you think it would have any other use for someone who didn't own a
golf-cart, like me?

I'm sort of curious what's inside that might be different from any
other charger -- it's fancier than my 1 amp and my 10 amp, with
circuits to turn it off at full charge, to time how long it charged
before that, etc. -- *plus I just generally hate to throw things away.

One of them flashes numbers it shouldn't flash, and one was just dead
iirc when they plugged it in. * I'm thinking this second one might be
easier to fix, but it seems to depend on being connected to a set of
three car batteries in series to turn on, even when it is working.
Maybe I can connect three 12 volt UPS /
home-burglar-alarm-backup-batteries and get the same effect, or maybe
it will overcharge them if it ever works??? *

They weigh about 20 pounds each, 8w x 7d x 10h inches and have a
handle. * Plus it sells for about 600 dollars locally and 300 and up
online. *A shame to throw it away.

Is there a manufacturer's name anywhere?? Contact the mfgr and ask for
a schematic.

mm wrote:
I have two 36 volt, 20 amp golf-cart chargers that no one else in town
would be interested in repairing. One broke ten years ago, one two
weeks ago, and the business which owns them have already bought a new
one, and told me I could throw the old ones away.

Do you think it would have any other use for someone who didn't own a
golf-cart, like me?

I'm sort of curious what's inside that might be different from any
other charger -- it's fancier than my 1 amp and my 10 amp, with
circuits to turn it off at full charge, to time how long it charged
before that, etc. -- plus I just generally hate to throw things away.

One of them flashes numbers it shouldn't flash, and one was just dead
iirc when they plugged it in. I'm thinking this second one might be
easier to fix, but it seems to depend on being connected to a set of
three car batteries in series to turn on, even when it is working.
Maybe I can connect three 12 volt UPS /
home-burglar-alarm-backup-batteries and get the same effect, or maybe
it will overcharge them if it ever works???

They weigh about 20 pounds each, 8w x 7d x 10h inches and have a
handle. Plus it sells for about 600 dollars locally and 300 and up
online. A shame to throw it away.

Boat anchor comes to mind.

--
LSMFT

I look outside this morning and everything was in 3D!

On Aug 15, 8:11*am, LSMFT wrote:
mm wrote:
I have two 36 volt, 20 amp golf-cart chargers that no one else in town
would be interested in repairing. * One broke ten years ago, one two
weeks ago, and the business which owns them have already bought a new
one, and told me I could throw the old ones away.

Do you think it would have any other use for someone who didn't own a
golf-cart, like me?

I'm sort of curious what's inside that might be different from any
other charger -- it's fancier than my 1 amp and my 10 amp, with
circuits to turn it off at full charge, to time how long it charged
before that, etc. -- *plus I just generally hate to throw things away..

One of them flashes numbers it shouldn't flash, and one was just dead
iirc when they plugged it in. * I'm thinking this second one might be
easier to fix, but it seems to depend on being connected to a set of
three car batteries in series to turn on, even when it is working.
Maybe I can connect three 12 volt UPS /
home-burglar-alarm-backup-batteries and get the same effect, or maybe
it will overcharge them if it ever works???

They weigh about 20 pounds each, 8w x 7d x 10h inches and have a
handle. * Plus it sells for about 600 dollars locally and 300 and up
online. *A shame to throw it away.

Boat anchor comes to mind.

--
LSMFT

I look outside this morning and everything was in 3D!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Put them up on Ebay. The more disclaimers you put like "flashing
error codes and they apparently don't work", the more people will want
them. Seriously. Take a look at some of the PCs people bid on that
are 5 years old. I saw one where the listing clearly stated that
they had never booted it up, have no idea if it works, no software, no
returns, sold as is, etc. And people had bid it up already to $75.

mm wrote:
I have two 36 volt, 20 amp golf-cart chargers that no one else in town
would be interested in repairing. One broke ten years ago, one two
weeks ago, and the business which owns them have already bought a new
one, and told me I could throw the old ones away.

Do you think it would have any other use for someone who didn't own a
golf-cart, like me?

I'm sort of curious what's inside that might be different from any
other charger -- it's fancier than my 1 amp and my 10 amp, with
circuits to turn it off at full charge, to time how long it charged
before that, etc. -- plus I just generally hate to throw things away.

One of them flashes numbers it shouldn't flash, and one was just dead
iirc when they plugged it in. I'm thinking this second one might be
easier to fix, but it seems to depend on being connected to a set of
three car batteries in series to turn on, even when it is working.
Maybe I can connect three 12 volt UPS /
home-burglar-alarm-backup-batteries and get the same effect, or maybe
it will overcharge them if it ever works???

They weigh about 20 pounds each, 8w x 7d x 10h inches and have a
handle. Plus it sells for about 600 dollars locally and 300 and up
online. A shame to throw it away.

I'd find an amateur electronics enthuasist (ham radio operator comes to
mind) to see if repairs could be made cheaply. If so, sell the suckers on
ebay. Current prices there range from $125 to $350.

If you're enough of a salesman, visit your local golf clubs. "Tell ya what
I'm gonna do. I'm gonna sell you this charger for $200. You can be confident
that if your current charger croaks, you can stay in business and not risk
being beaten to death with a 9-iron. Further, I'm gonna throw in a TWO YEAR,
MONEY-BACK, UNCONDITIONAL guarantee...."

Under that rubric, the worst that can happen is you break even.

On 8/14/2010 8:23 PM, mm wrote:
I have two 36 volt, 20 amp golf-cart chargers that no one else in town
would be interested in repairing. One broke ten years ago, one two
weeks ago, and the business which owns them have already bought a new
one, and told me I could throw the old ones away.

Do you think it would have any other use for someone who didn't own a
golf-cart, like me?

I'm sort of curious what's inside that might be different from any
other charger -- it's fancier than my 1 amp and my 10 amp, with
circuits to turn it off at full charge, to time how long it charged
before that, etc. -- plus I just generally hate to throw things away.

One of them flashes numbers it shouldn't flash, and one was just dead
iirc when they plugged it in. I'm thinking this second one might be
easier to fix, but it seems to depend on being connected to a set of
three car batteries in series to turn on, even when it is working.
Maybe I can connect three 12 volt UPS /
home-burglar-alarm-backup-batteries and get the same effect, or maybe
it will overcharge them if it ever works???


No. If the batteries aren't the same size or the same level of discharge
the strongest battery will take most of the charge. This is similar to
memory effect in NiCad. Don't put them in series unless the batteries
are even, which is unlikely outside a device that needs three.

The dead one could be easy to fix, it might even be just a fuse. Take it
apart and take a look.

As far as usage, probably not much beyond their original intended.

Note that copper, in the transformer, is valuable. Your best bet, as
has been suggested, is to try to fix the dead one and then sell them as
a pair. Many people could make two out of one, since the symptoms are
different.

Jeff


They weigh about 20 pounds each, 8w x 7d x 10h inches and have a
handle. Plus it sells for about 600 dollars locally and 300 and up
online. A shame to throw it away.

Of course, you could list them on Ebay. As for uses, not much comes to
mind. If you try to charge three batteries, they ought to be matched
set for age, type, usage, etc. Not really practical.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"mm" wrote in message
...
I have two 36 volt, 20 amp golf-cart chargers that no one else in town
would be interested in repairing. One broke ten years ago, one two
weeks ago, and the business which owns them have already bought a new
one, and told me I could throw the old ones away.

Do you think it would have any other use for someone who didn't own a
golf-cart, like me?

I'm sort of curious what's inside that might be different from any
other charger -- it's fancier than my 1 amp and my 10 amp, with
circuits to turn it off at full charge, to time how long it charged
before that, etc. -- plus I just generally hate to throw things away.

One of them flashes numbers it shouldn't flash, and one was just dead
iirc when they plugged it in. I'm thinking this second one might be
easier to fix, but it seems to depend on being connected to a set of
three car batteries in series to turn on, even when it is working.
Maybe I can connect three 12 volt UPS /
home-burglar-alarm-backup-batteries and get the same effect, or maybe
it will overcharge them if it ever works???

They weigh about 20 pounds each, 8w x 7d x 10h inches and have a
handle. Plus it sells for about 600 dollars locally and 300 and up
online. A shame to throw it away.

On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 09:23:26 -0400, Jeff Thies
wrote:

On 8/14/2010 8:23 PM, mm wrote:
I have two 36 volt, 20 amp golf-cart chargers that no one else in town
would be interested in repairing. One broke ten years ago, one two
weeks ago, and the business which owns them have already bought a new
one, and told me I could throw the old ones away.

Do you think it would have any other use for someone who didn't own a
golf-cart, like me?

I'm sort of curious what's inside that might be different from any
other charger -- it's fancier than my 1 amp and my 10 amp, with
circuits to turn it off at full charge, to time how long it charged
before that, etc. -- plus I just generally hate to throw things away.

One of them flashes numbers it shouldn't flash, and one was just dead
iirc when they plugged it in. I'm thinking this second one might be
easier to fix, but it seems to depend on being connected to a set of
three car batteries in series to turn on, even when it is working.
Maybe I can connect three 12 volt UPS /
home-burglar-alarm-backup-batteries and get the same effect, or maybe
it will overcharge them if it ever works???


No. If the batteries aren't the same size or the same level of discharge
the strongest battery will take most of the charge. This is similar to
memory effect in NiCad. Don't put them in series unless the batteries
are even, which is unlikely outside a device that needs three.


Actually you have it WRONG. Batteries are ALWAYS charged in series

The dead one could be easy to fix, it might even be just a fuse. Take it
apart and take a look.

As far as usage, probably not much beyond their original intended.

Note that copper, in the transformer, is valuable. Your best bet, as
has been suggested, is to try to fix the dead one and then sell them as
a pair. Many people could make two out of one, since the symptoms are
different.

Jeff


They weigh about 20 pounds each, 8w x 7d x 10h inches and have a
handle. Plus it sells for about 600 dollars locally and 300 and up
online. A shame to throw it away.

36 volt chargers are becoming uncommon on golf carts, most are 48 and
higher today (many even 72) - I use a 36 volt GC charger to charge the
36 volt battery pack for my E-Bike - but even there, 48 volts is much
more common on the "good" ones, and 24 on the cheapies.

When I READ the paragraph BEFORE your comment, it MADE perfect sense
to ME. Charging in SERIES is best done when the batteries are EQUAL in
BRAND, type and STATE of CHARGE.

I'd be WILLING to charge BATTERIES in PARALLEL since they all end up
at the SAME VOLTAGE.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..



wrote in message ...



No. If the batteries aren't the same size or the same level of
discharge
the strongest battery will take most of the charge. This is similar
to
memory effect in NiCad. Don't put them in series unless the batteries
are even, which is unlikely outside a device that needs three.


Actually you have it WRONG. Batteries are ALWAYS charged in series

On Aug 16, 9:03*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
When I READ the paragraph BEFORE your comment, it MADE perfect sense
to ME. Charging in SERIES is best done when the batteries are EQUAL in
BRAND, type and STATE of CHARGE.

I'd be WILLING to charge BATTERIES in PARALLEL since they all end up
at the SAME VOLTAGE.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.


wrote in messagenews:82bh661a348bgvhngr8653t1e3l9hvgtcv@4ax .com...



No. If the batteries aren't the same size or the same level of
discharge
the strongest battery will take most of the charge. This is similar
to
memory effect in NiCad. Don't put them in series unless the batteries
are even, which is unlikely outside a device that needs three.

Actually you have it WRONG. Batteries are ALWAYS charged in series

If you think a little harder about it, he is correct. A single 12v
wet cell battery is comprosed of six 2 volt cells in series.

The conclusion you jumped to was that it's desirable not to charge
several independent 6 or 12 volt batteries in series unless they are
identical in composition and use. Even then it is a good idea to
independently charge each one periodically to try to maintain
identical charge states.

On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 09:03:18 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

When I READ the paragraph BEFORE your comment, it MADE perfect sense
to ME. Charging in SERIES is best done when the batteries are EQUAL in
BRAND, type and STATE of CHARGE.

I'd be WILLING to charge BATTERIES in PARALLEL since they all end up
at the SAME VOLTAGE.
Think about it - a "battery" is a string of cells in series.
Charging batteries in series puts the same amount of current through
each battery. Parallel charging is fraught with possibilities.
Maintenance charging of warehoused batteries is done with all kinds of
batteries, including different voltages and capacities, all connected
in series, charging at 2.2 volts per cell, more or less. The
precautions you state are mandatory for parallel charging, and almost
irrelevent for series charging.

On 8/15/2010 11:13 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 09:23:26 -0400, Jeff
wrote:

On 8/14/2010 8:23 PM, mm wrote:
I have two 36 volt, 20 amp golf-cart chargers that no one else in town
would be interested in repairing. One broke ten years ago, one two
weeks ago, and the business which owns them have already bought a new
one, and told me I could throw the old ones away.

Do you think it would have any other use for someone who didn't own a
golf-cart, like me?

I'm sort of curious what's inside that might be different from any
other charger -- it's fancier than my 1 amp and my 10 amp, with
circuits to turn it off at full charge, to time how long it charged
before that, etc. -- plus I just generally hate to throw things away.

One of them flashes numbers it shouldn't flash, and one was just dead
iirc when they plugged it in. I'm thinking this second one might be
easier to fix, but it seems to depend on being connected to a set of
three car batteries in series to turn on, even when it is working.
Maybe I can connect three 12 volt UPS /
home-burglar-alarm-backup-batteries and get the same effect, or maybe
it will overcharge them if it ever works???


No. If the batteries aren't the same size or the same level of discharge
the strongest battery will take most of the charge. This is similar to
memory effect in NiCad. Don't put them in series unless the batteries
are even, which is unlikely outside a device that needs three.


Actually you have it WRONG.


About what? Surely you are not advocating charging 3 unequally
discharged backup batteries? That *is* the point. There is nothing wrong
with charging in series provided the batteries are similar and in a
similar state. Not that they would blow up, but the charging would be
unequal with the weakest battery taking less and less charge after every
cycle until it was dead. Hence the advice to discharge completely your
NiCads from time to time, so they all start at the same (fully
discharged) level. This is all basic ohms law with the voltage divided
between all the batteries, the weak link progressively falls in voltage
and hence the amount of charge it is given.

For unevenly charged batteries or batteries of different types, the
best option is to charge them independently.

FYI, large battery arrays are usually in a series/parallel combo of some
type. Look it up yourself.

Jeff

Batteries are ALWAYS charged in series

The dead one could be easy to fix, it might even be just a fuse. Take it
apart and take a look.

As far as usage, probably not much beyond their original intended.

Note that copper, in the transformer, is valuable. Your best bet, as
has been suggested, is to try to fix the dead one and then sell them as
a pair. Many people could make two out of one, since the symptoms are
different.

Jeff


They weigh about 20 pounds each, 8w x 7d x 10h inches and have a
handle. Plus it sells for about 600 dollars locally and 300 and up
online. A shame to throw it away.

36 volt chargers are becoming uncommon on golf carts, most are 48 and
higher today (many even 72) - I use a 36 volt GC charger to charge the
36 volt battery pack for my E-Bike - but even there, 48 volts is much
more common on the "good" ones, and 24 on the cheapies.

Well, lets see. Now, lets look at the "irrelevant" factors, during a
series charge as you seem to prefer.

We start charging. About an hour later, the battery #4 in the line is
fully charged. We continue to pump in the two amp charge.

Hour two. Battery #3 is now fully charge. Battery #4 has been over
charged for the last hour, and is losing water as it electrolyzes to
hydrogen and oxygen.

Hour three. Battery #2 is fully charged. Battery #3 is rapidly losing
water. Battery #4 is nearly dry. Candidly, I think you are mistaken.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 09:03:18 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

When I READ the paragraph BEFORE your comment, it MADE perfect sense
to ME. Charging in SERIES is best done when the batteries are EQUAL
in
BRAND, type and STATE of CHARGE.

I'd be WILLING to charge BATTERIES in PARALLEL since they all end up
at the SAME VOLTAGE.
Think about it - a "battery" is a string of cells in series.
Charging batteries in series puts the same amount of current through
each battery. Parallel charging is fraught with possibilities.
Maintenance charging of warehoused batteries is done with all kinds of
batteries, including different voltages and capacities, all connected
in series, charging at 2.2 volts per cell, more or less. The
precautions you state are mandatory for parallel charging, and almost
irrelevent for series charging.

Clare says that with series charging. all those rules and factors are
not relevant. Maybe you can help explain it to him?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Jeff Thies"
wrote in message ...

No. If the batteries aren't the same size or the same level of
discharge
the strongest battery will take most of the charge. This is similar
to
memory effect in NiCad. Don't put them in series unless the
batteries
are even, which is unlikely outside a device that needs three.


Actually you have it WRONG.


About what? Surely you are not advocating charging 3 unequally
discharged backup batteries? That *is* the point. There is nothing
wrong
with charging in series provided the batteries are similar and in a
similar state. Not that they would blow up, but the charging would be
unequal with the weakest battery taking less and less charge after
every
cycle until it was dead. Hence the advice to discharge completely your
NiCads from time to time, so they all start at the same (fully
discharged) level. This is all basic ohms law with the voltage divided
between all the batteries, the weak link progressively falls in
voltage
and hence the amount of charge it is given.

For unevenly charged batteries or batteries of different types, the
best option is to charge them independently.

FYI, large battery arrays are usually in a series/parallel combo of
some
type. Look it up yourself.

Jeff

On 8/17/2010 9:44 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Clare says that with series charging. all those rules and factors are
not relevant. Maybe you can help explain it to him?

Nope. Your explanation was better than any I had in mind!

Jeff

On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:42:58 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Well, lets see. Now, lets look at the "irrelevant" factors, during a
series charge as you seem to prefer.

We start charging. About an hour later, the battery #4 in the line is
fully charged. We continue to pump in the two amp charge.

Hour two. Battery #3 is now fully charge. Battery #4 has been over
charged for the last hour, and is losing water as it electrolyzes to
hydrogen and oxygen.

Hour three. Battery #2 is fully charged. Battery #3 is rapidly losing
water. Battery #4 is nearly dry. Candidly, I think you are mistaken.
You forget, series charging of a string of batteries is NOT constant
current. It is constant voltage - and the current looks after itself.
And I am NOT mistaken. I worked in the automotive field for many
years, and the batteries in the warehouse were allways recharged every
couple of months with the old Tungar battery charger - which was set
to the proper VOLTAGE for the series string, and after several days of
charging all the batteries were fully charged, and evenly charged. If
someone miscalculated and set the voltage too high, they were all hot
and gassing.

Generally we recharged at 2.3 volts per cell for a day or two, then
2.4 volts for another hour to 3 hours, depending on temperature etc.
Hydrometer testing of one or two batteries in the string told when the
batteries were fully charged - or simply checking to see that all the
cells in a battery were gently and evenly bubbling.

If you charge in parallel and one battery is partly shorted (Low
resistance) it hogs all the power and overheats, while the rest of the
batteries get virtually nothing - and if the charge is not high enough
for that scenario, the bad battery drains all the good ones.

wrote:
On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:42:58 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Well, lets see. Now, lets look at the "irrelevant" factors, during a
series charge as you seem to prefer.

We start charging. About an hour later, the battery #4 in the line is
fully charged. We continue to pump in the two amp charge.

Hour two. Battery #3 is now fully charge. Battery #4 has been over
charged for the last hour, and is losing water as it electrolyzes to
hydrogen and oxygen.

Hour three. Battery #2 is fully charged. Battery #3 is rapidly losing
water. Battery #4 is nearly dry. Candidly, I think you are mistaken.
You forget, series charging of a string of batteries is NOT constant
current.

If you have a series string of batteries the current through each
battery is not the same - constant current? Please explain.

It is constant voltage - and the current looks after itself.
And I am NOT mistaken. I worked in the automotive field for many
years, and the batteries in the warehouse were allways recharged every
couple of months with the old Tungar battery charger - which was set
to the proper VOLTAGE for the series string, and after several days of
charging all the batteries were fully charged, and evenly charged. If
someone miscalculated and set the voltage too high, they were all hot
and gassing.

Charging a set of batteries in series, like a golf cart, you want all
the batteries to be the essentially the same - type, amp-hour capacity,
aging effects. And they should be used as a series string so their state
of charge (as they are used) is about the same for each battery. In an
old battery string you shouldn't replace one of the batteries.

Charging over several days is closer to a float charge.

If you charge at significant current you can get what Stormin nicely
describes. Why do you think what Stormin describes won't happen.


Generally we recharged at 2.3 volts per cell for a day or two, then
2.4 volts for another hour to 3 hours, depending on temperature etc.
Hydrometer testing of one or two batteries in the string told when the
batteries were fully charged - or simply checking to see that all the
cells in a battery were gently and evenly bubbling.

You probably have batteries that are close to fully charged when you
start and what you were doing was closer to a float charge.

If you have a few amps to very different batteries or very different
state of charge Stornin has a good description of what will happen.

Evenly bubbling in a series string is an "equalization" charge and is
occasionally done in a series string like a UPS.


If you charge in parallel and one battery is partly shorted (Low
resistance) it hogs all the power and overheats, while the rest of the
batteries get virtually nothing - and if the charge is not high enough
for that scenario, the bad battery drains all the good ones.

Partly shorted is a red herring.

You can charge normal batteries in parallel. You are OK if it is at a
float charge level (which is close to what you were doing). For a higher
voltage (producing a significant charge current) for a timed period, if
the state of charge is different or amp hour capacity is different you
may lose water in some of the batteries (same as leaving a battery on a
charger too long). It is a little safer than series in that batteries
that are more discharged will have a higher charge current. In a series
string the currents are all the same.

--
bud--

On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:32:44 -0500, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:42:58 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Well, lets see. Now, lets look at the "irrelevant" factors, during a
series charge as you seem to prefer.

We start charging. About an hour later, the battery #4 in the line is
fully charged. We continue to pump in the two amp charge.

Hour two. Battery #3 is now fully charge. Battery #4 has been over
charged for the last hour, and is losing water as it electrolyzes to
hydrogen and oxygen.

Hour three. Battery #2 is fully charged. Battery #3 is rapidly losing
water. Battery #4 is nearly dry. Candidly, I think you are mistaken.
You forget, series charging of a string of batteries is NOT constant
current.

If you have a series string of batteries the current through each
battery is not the same - constant current? Please explain.

It is constant voltage - and the current looks after itself.
And I am NOT mistaken. I worked in the automotive field for many
years, and the batteries in the warehouse were allways recharged every
couple of months with the old Tungar battery charger - which was set
to the proper VOLTAGE for the series string, and after several days of
charging all the batteries were fully charged, and evenly charged. If
someone miscalculated and set the voltage too high, they were all hot
and gassing.

Charging a set of batteries in series, like a golf cart, you want all
the batteries to be the essentially the same - type, amp-hour capacity,
aging effects. And they should be used as a series string so their state
of charge (as they are used) is about the same for each battery. In an
old battery string you shouldn't replace one of the batteries.

Charging over several days is closer to a float charge.

If you charge at significant current you can get what Stormin nicely
describes. Why do you think what Stormin describes won't happen.


Generally we recharged at 2.3 volts per cell for a day or two, then
2.4 volts for another hour to 3 hours, depending on temperature etc.
Hydrometer testing of one or two batteries in the string told when the
batteries were fully charged - or simply checking to see that all the
cells in a battery were gently and evenly bubbling.

You probably have batteries that are close to fully charged when you
start and what you were doing was closer to a float charge.

If you have a few amps to very different batteries or very different
state of charge Stornin has a good description of what will happen.

The batteries varied from motorcycle and lawn tractor batteries to
deisel truck batteries - 6, 8, and 12 volt - AH ratings from 12 to
300+, and cca from about 50 to over 1000.

Evenly bubbling in a series string is an "equalization" charge and is
occasionally done in a series string like a UPS.


If you charge in parallel and one battery is partly shorted (Low
resistance) it hogs all the power and overheats, while the rest of the
batteries get virtually nothing - and if the charge is not high enough
for that scenario, the bad battery drains all the good ones.

Partly shorted is a red herring.
No it's not. A battery with a lowwer than normal resistance is partly
shorted unless it has a VERY LOW resistance, in which case it is
shorted. Deteriorated separators or large amounts of sediment in the
bottom of the case can cause a "partly shorted" cell - which usually,
eventually, becomes a shorted cell.

You can charge normal batteries in parallel. You are OK if it is at a
float charge level (which is close to what you were doing). For a higher
voltage (producing a significant charge current) for a timed period, if
the state of charge is different or amp hour capacity is different you
may lose water in some of the batteries (same as leaving a battery on a
charger too long). It is a little safer than series in that batteries
that are more discharged will have a higher charge current. In a series
string the currents are all the same.

Which is the general idea. Low charging rate - constant voltage, not
constant current.

What is the best battery setup for an electric vehicle (assuming you
MUST use lead acid batteries)?
A series string of 12 300 ah 6 volt batteries for 72 volts, or a set
of 12 300 ah 12 volt batteries set up Series/Parallell?
And what is virtually "required" in order to successfully use the 12
volt batteries?

To use the 12 volt batteries you need to have equal length, equal
resistance cables connecting the individual batteries in parrallel
pairs - and then also connecting the parrallel pairs in series so you
essentually have a ballanced grid tying all the batteries together -
(and the batteries pretty well have to be identical - down to being
dfrom the same production run and date code). that way a bad cell will
only kill 2 batteries - the defective one and the one directly
parallled with it.
In a series string, even in a high load situation like an EV, the
batteries should be of the same nominal capacity as far as AH and CCA
rating, but are not NEARLY as sensitive as in a parallel situation.

Unlike you guys, I have built and driven electric vehicles. I've "done
it" - and belive me, series works a LOT better than parallel.

On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:32:44 -0500, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:42:58 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Well, lets see. Now, lets look at the "irrelevant" factors, during a
series charge as you seem to prefer.

We start charging. About an hour later, the battery #4 in the line is
fully charged. We continue to pump in the two amp charge.

Hour two. Battery #3 is now fully charge. Battery #4 has been over
charged for the last hour, and is losing water as it electrolyzes to
hydrogen and oxygen.

Hour three. Battery #2 is fully charged. Battery #3 is rapidly losing
water. Battery #4 is nearly dry. Candidly, I think you are mistaken.
You forget, series charging of a string of batteries is NOT constant
current.

If you have a series string of batteries the current through each
battery is not the same - constant current? Please explain.

It is constant voltage - and the current looks after itself.
And I am NOT mistaken. I worked in the automotive field for many
years, and the batteries in the warehouse were allways recharged every
couple of months with the old Tungar battery charger - which was set
to the proper VOLTAGE for the series string, and after several days of
charging all the batteries were fully charged, and evenly charged. If
someone miscalculated and set the voltage too high, they were all hot
and gassing.

Charging a set of batteries in series, like a golf cart, you want all
the batteries to be the essentially the same - type, amp-hour capacity,
aging effects. And they should be used as a series string so their state
of charge (as they are used) is about the same for each battery. In an
old battery string you shouldn't replace one of the batteries.

Charging over several days is closer to a float charge.

If you charge at significant current you can get what Stormin nicely
describes. Why do you think what Stormin describes won't happen.


Generally we recharged at 2.3 volts per cell for a day or two, then
2.4 volts for another hour to 3 hours, depending on temperature etc.
Hydrometer testing of one or two batteries in the string told when the
batteries were fully charged - or simply checking to see that all the
cells in a battery were gently and evenly bubbling.

You probably have batteries that are close to fully charged when you
start and what you were doing was closer to a float charge.

If you have a few amps to very different batteries or very different
state of charge Stornin has a good description of what will happen.

Evenly bubbling in a series string is an "equalization" charge and is
occasionally done in a series string like a UPS.


If you charge in parallel and one battery is partly shorted (Low
resistance) it hogs all the power and overheats, while the rest of the
batteries get virtually nothing - and if the charge is not high enough
for that scenario, the bad battery drains all the good ones.

Partly shorted is a red herring.

You can charge normal batteries in parallel. You are OK if it is at a
float charge level (which is close to what you were doing). For a higher
voltage (producing a significant charge current) for a timed period, if
the state of charge is different or amp hour capacity is different you
may lose water in some of the batteries (same as leaving a battery on a
charger too long). It is a little safer than series in that batteries
that are more discharged will have a higher charge current. In a series
string the currents are all the same.

If you want an "authorative" answer look at
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-24.htm.
About half way down the first section it discusses series and parallel
connections - And a series connection with a failed cell has reduced
power - or it quits.
A parallel cell with a bad cell has reduced power or it overheats -
and possibly burns.

wrote:
On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:32:44 -0500, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:42:58 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Well, lets see. Now, lets look at the "irrelevant" factors, during a
series charge as you seem to prefer.

We start charging. About an hour later, the battery #4 in the line is
fully charged. We continue to pump in the two amp charge.

Hour two. Battery #3 is now fully charge. Battery #4 has been over
charged for the last hour, and is losing water as it electrolyzes to
hydrogen and oxygen.

Hour three. Battery #2 is fully charged. Battery #3 is rapidly losing
water. Battery #4 is nearly dry. Candidly, I think you are mistaken.
You forget, series charging of a string of batteries is NOT constant
current.
If you have a series string of batteries the current through each
battery is not the same - constant current? Please explain.

It is constant voltage - and the current looks after itself.
And I am NOT mistaken. I worked in the automotive field for many
years, and the batteries in the warehouse were allways recharged every
couple of months with the old Tungar battery charger - which was set
to the proper VOLTAGE for the series string, and after several days of
charging all the batteries were fully charged, and evenly charged. If
someone miscalculated and set the voltage too high, they were all hot
and gassing.
Charging a set of batteries in series, like a golf cart, you want all
the batteries to be the essentially the same - type, amp-hour capacity,
aging effects. And they should be used as a series string so their state
of charge (as they are used) is about the same for each battery. In an
old battery string you shouldn't replace one of the batteries.

Charging over several days is closer to a float charge.

If you charge at significant current you can get what Stormin nicely
describes. Why do you think what Stormin describes won't happen.

Generally we recharged at 2.3 volts per cell for a day or two, then
2.4 volts for another hour to 3 hours, depending on temperature etc.
Hydrometer testing of one or two batteries in the string told when the
batteries were fully charged - or simply checking to see that all the
cells in a battery were gently and evenly bubbling.
You probably have batteries that are close to fully charged when you
start and what you were doing was closer to a float charge.

If you have a few amps to very different batteries or very different
state of charge Stornin has a good description of what will happen.

The batteries varied from motorcycle and lawn tractor batteries to
deisel truck batteries - 6, 8, and 12 volt - AH ratings from 12 to
300+, and cca from about 50 to over 1000.

So are we going to talk about trickle charging a series string of
batteries over several days or charging over several hours, like is
virtually always done - like for golf-carts?

Evenly bubbling in a series string is an "equalization" charge and is
occasionally done in a series string like a UPS.

If you charge in parallel and one battery is partly shorted (Low
resistance) it hogs all the power and overheats, while the rest of the
batteries get virtually nothing - and if the charge is not high enough
for that scenario, the bad battery drains all the good ones.
Partly shorted is a red herring.
No it's not. A battery with a lowwer than normal resistance is partly
shorted unless it has a VERY LOW resistance, in which case it is
shorted. Deteriorated separators or large amounts of sediment in the
bottom of the case can cause a "partly shorted" cell - which usually,
eventually, becomes a shorted cell.

So what? There are equivalent problems in a series string.

You can charge normal batteries in parallel. You are OK if it is at a
float charge level (which is close to what you were doing). For a higher
voltage (producing a significant charge current) for a timed period, if
the state of charge is different or amp hour capacity is different you
may lose water in some of the batteries (same as leaving a battery on a
charger too long). It is a little safer than series in that batteries
that are more discharged will have a higher charge current. In a series
string the currents are all the same.

Which is the general idea. Low charging rate - constant voltage, not
constant current.

Which is not what you said you were doing in the warehouse. You said
that was series, not parallel. So what are we talking about? Or are you
still misunderstand that series is constant voltage, not constant current?

There aren't a lot of applications that heavily discharge battery sets
(golf-carts) and then trickle charge them.


What is the best battery setup for an electric vehicle (assuming you
MUST use lead acid batteries)?
A series string of 12 300 ah 6 volt batteries for 72 volts, or a set
of 12 300 ah 12 volt batteries set up Series/Parallell?
And what is virtually "required" in order to successfully use the 12
volt batteries?

To use the 12 volt batteries you need to have equal length, equal
resistance cables connecting the individual batteries in parrallel
pairs - and then also connecting the parrallel pairs in series so you
essentually have a ballanced grid tying all the batteries together -
(and the batteries pretty well have to be identical - down to being
dfrom the same production run and date code). that way a bad cell will
only kill 2 batteries - the defective one and the one directly
parallled with it.


In a series string, even in a high load situation like an EV, the
batteries should be of the same nominal capacity as far as AH and CCA
rating, but are not NEARLY as sensitive as in a parallel situation.

For a series string that is what I said (and what Stormin said).

You disagreed with Stormin - that your warehouse charged very dissimilar
batteries in series. Your statement above disagrees with that and agrees
with Stormin.

You changed the subject by changing from a normal charge - over hours
(golf-cart) - to a trickle charge - over days. So which are we talking
about?


Unlike you guys, I have built and driven electric vehicles. I've "done
it" - and belive me, series works a LOT better than parallel.

The thread was about series strings of batteries - golf carts - until
you brought up parallel charging. Nobody talked about a parallel set of
batteries for a power application. Changing the subject yet again.

--
bud--

wrote:
On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:32:44 -0500, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:42:58 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Well, lets see. Now, lets look at the "irrelevant" factors, during a
series charge as you seem to prefer.

We start charging. About an hour later, the battery #4 in the line is
fully charged. We continue to pump in the two amp charge.

Hour two. Battery #3 is now fully charge. Battery #4 has been over
charged for the last hour, and is losing water as it electrolyzes to
hydrogen and oxygen.

Hour three. Battery #2 is fully charged. Battery #3 is rapidly losing
water. Battery #4 is nearly dry. Candidly, I think you are mistaken.
You forget, series charging of a string of batteries is NOT constant
current.
If you have a series string of batteries the current through each
battery is not the same - constant current? Please explain.

It is constant voltage - and the current looks after itself.
And I am NOT mistaken. I worked in the automotive field for many
years, and the batteries in the warehouse were allways recharged every
couple of months with the old Tungar battery charger - which was set
to the proper VOLTAGE for the series string, and after several days of
charging all the batteries were fully charged, and evenly charged. If
someone miscalculated and set the voltage too high, they were all hot
and gassing.
Charging a set of batteries in series, like a golf cart, you want all
the batteries to be the essentially the same - type, amp-hour capacity,
aging effects. And they should be used as a series string so their state
of charge (as they are used) is about the same for each battery. In an
old battery string you shouldn't replace one of the batteries.

Charging over several days is closer to a float charge.

If you charge at significant current you can get what Stormin nicely
describes. Why do you think what Stormin describes won't happen.

Generally we recharged at 2.3 volts per cell for a day or two, then
2.4 volts for another hour to 3 hours, depending on temperature etc.
Hydrometer testing of one or two batteries in the string told when the
batteries were fully charged - or simply checking to see that all the
cells in a battery were gently and evenly bubbling.
You probably have batteries that are close to fully charged when you
start and what you were doing was closer to a float charge.

If you have a few amps to very different batteries or very different
state of charge Stornin has a good description of what will happen.

Evenly bubbling in a series string is an "equalization" charge and is
occasionally done in a series string like a UPS.

If you charge in parallel and one battery is partly shorted (Low
resistance) it hogs all the power and overheats, while the rest of the
batteries get virtually nothing - and if the charge is not high enough
for that scenario, the bad battery drains all the good ones.
Partly shorted is a red herring.

You can charge normal batteries in parallel. You are OK if it is at a
float charge level (which is close to what you were doing). For a higher
voltage (producing a significant charge current) for a timed period, if
the state of charge is different or amp hour capacity is different you
may lose water in some of the batteries (same as leaving a battery on a
charger too long). It is a little safer than series in that batteries
that are more discharged will have a higher charge current. In a series
string the currents are all the same.

If you want an "authorative" answer look at
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-24.htm.
About half way down the first section it discusses series and parallel
connections - And a series connection with a failed cell has reduced
power - or it quits.
A parallel cell with a bad cell has reduced power or it overheats -
and possibly burns.

So what is the point?

There are limitations on both series and parallel setups. Life is a
series of tradeoffs.

--
bud--

On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 13:08:28 -0500, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:32:44 -0500, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:42:58 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Well, lets see. Now, lets look at the "irrelevant" factors, during a
series charge as you seem to prefer.

We start charging. About an hour later, the battery #4 in the line is
fully charged. We continue to pump in the two amp charge.

Hour two. Battery #3 is now fully charge. Battery #4 has been over
charged for the last hour, and is losing water as it electrolyzes to
hydrogen and oxygen.

Hour three. Battery #2 is fully charged. Battery #3 is rapidly losing
water. Battery #4 is nearly dry. Candidly, I think you are mistaken.
You forget, series charging of a string of batteries is NOT constant
current.
If you have a series string of batteries the current through each
battery is not the same - constant current? Please explain.

It is constant voltage - and the current looks after itself.
And I am NOT mistaken. I worked in the automotive field for many
years, and the batteries in the warehouse were allways recharged every
couple of months with the old Tungar battery charger - which was set
to the proper VOLTAGE for the series string, and after several days of
charging all the batteries were fully charged, and evenly charged. If
someone miscalculated and set the voltage too high, they were all hot
and gassing.
Charging a set of batteries in series, like a golf cart, you want all
the batteries to be the essentially the same - type, amp-hour capacity,
aging effects. And they should be used as a series string so their state
of charge (as they are used) is about the same for each battery. In an
old battery string you shouldn't replace one of the batteries.

Charging over several days is closer to a float charge.

If you charge at significant current you can get what Stormin nicely
describes. Why do you think what Stormin describes won't happen.

Generally we recharged at 2.3 volts per cell for a day or two, then
2.4 volts for another hour to 3 hours, depending on temperature etc.
Hydrometer testing of one or two batteries in the string told when the
batteries were fully charged - or simply checking to see that all the
cells in a battery were gently and evenly bubbling.
You probably have batteries that are close to fully charged when you
start and what you were doing was closer to a float charge.

If you have a few amps to very different batteries or very different
state of charge Stornin has a good description of what will happen.

The batteries varied from motorcycle and lawn tractor batteries to
deisel truck batteries - 6, 8, and 12 volt - AH ratings from 12 to
300+, and cca from about 50 to over 1000.

So are we going to talk about trickle charging a series string of
batteries over several days or charging over several hours, like is
virtually always done - like for golf-carts?

Evenly bubbling in a series string is an "equalization" charge and is
occasionally done in a series string like a UPS.

If you charge in parallel and one battery is partly shorted (Low
resistance) it hogs all the power and overheats, while the rest of the
batteries get virtually nothing - and if the charge is not high enough
for that scenario, the bad battery drains all the good ones.
Partly shorted is a red herring.
No it's not. A battery with a lowwer than normal resistance is partly
shorted unless it has a VERY LOW resistance, in which case it is
shorted. Deteriorated separators or large amounts of sediment in the
bottom of the case can cause a "partly shorted" cell - which usually,
eventually, becomes a shorted cell.

So what? There are equivalent problems in a series string.

You can charge normal batteries in parallel. You are OK if it is at a
float charge level (which is close to what you were doing). For a higher
voltage (producing a significant charge current) for a timed period, if
the state of charge is different or amp hour capacity is different you
may lose water in some of the batteries (same as leaving a battery on a
charger too long). It is a little safer than series in that batteries
that are more discharged will have a higher charge current. In a series
string the currents are all the same.

Which is the general idea. Low charging rate - constant voltage, not
constant current.

Which is not what you said you were doing in the warehouse. You said
that was series, not parallel. So what are we talking about? Or are you
still misunderstand that series is constant voltage, not constant current?

There aren't a lot of applications that heavily discharge battery sets
(golf-carts) and then trickle charge them.


What is the best battery setup for an electric vehicle (assuming you
MUST use lead acid batteries)?
A series string of 12 300 ah 6 volt batteries for 72 volts, or a set
of 12 300 ah 12 volt batteries set up Series/Parallell?
And what is virtually "required" in order to successfully use the 12
volt batteries?

To use the 12 volt batteries you need to have equal length, equal
resistance cables connecting the individual batteries in parrallel
pairs - and then also connecting the parrallel pairs in series so you
essentually have a ballanced grid tying all the batteries together -
(and the batteries pretty well have to be identical - down to being
dfrom the same production run and date code). that way a bad cell will
only kill 2 batteries - the defective one and the one directly
parallled with it.


In a series string, even in a high load situation like an EV, the
batteries should be of the same nominal capacity as far as AH and CCA
rating, but are not NEARLY as sensitive as in a parallel situation.

For a series string that is what I said (and what Stormin said).

Not so much for charging, but definitely for DISCHARGING under high
current conditions. My Fiat drew over 400 amps under accelleration -
making battery characteristics pretty important.

You disagreed with Stormin - that your warehouse charged very dissimilar
batteries in series. Your statement above disagrees with that and agrees
with Stormin.

You changed the subject by changing from a normal charge - over hours
(golf-cart) - to a trickle charge - over days. So which are we talking
about?

On the electric car it was charged with what was basically a heavy
golf cart charger - and in order to get anything more than 12 volts -
you definitely need a series string of batteries - and if they are in
series to provide the voltage required, you would not normally charge
them in parallel.

The one setup I used DID use series / parallel connections - with two
series strings in series with each other for higher speeds, and in
parallel with each other for high torque and low speeds. The two
strings were charged in parallel - and it was NOT a satisfactory setup
in the long run.

Much better to just use a high voltage series string and a good pulse
width modulated speed controller - which I did not have at that time.


Unlike you guys, I have built and driven electric vehicles. I've "done
it" - and belive me, series works a LOT better than parallel.

The thread was about series strings of batteries - golf carts - until
you brought up parallel charging. Nobody talked about a parallel set of
batteries for a power application. Changing the subject yet again.

On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 13:09:24 -0500, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:32:44 -0500, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:42:58 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Well, lets see. Now, lets look at the "irrelevant" factors, during a
series charge as you seem to prefer.

We start charging. About an hour later, the battery #4 in the line is
fully charged. We continue to pump in the two amp charge.

Hour two. Battery #3 is now fully charge. Battery #4 has been over
charged for the last hour, and is losing water as it electrolyzes to
hydrogen and oxygen.

Hour three. Battery #2 is fully charged. Battery #3 is rapidly losing
water. Battery #4 is nearly dry. Candidly, I think you are mistaken.
You forget, series charging of a string of batteries is NOT constant
current.
If you have a series string of batteries the current through each
battery is not the same - constant current? Please explain.

It is constant voltage - and the current looks after itself.
And I am NOT mistaken. I worked in the automotive field for many
years, and the batteries in the warehouse were allways recharged every
couple of months with the old Tungar battery charger - which was set
to the proper VOLTAGE for the series string, and after several days of
charging all the batteries were fully charged, and evenly charged. If
someone miscalculated and set the voltage too high, they were all hot
and gassing.
Charging a set of batteries in series, like a golf cart, you want all
the batteries to be the essentially the same - type, amp-hour capacity,
aging effects. And they should be used as a series string so their state
of charge (as they are used) is about the same for each battery. In an
old battery string you shouldn't replace one of the batteries.

Charging over several days is closer to a float charge.

If you charge at significant current you can get what Stormin nicely
describes. Why do you think what Stormin describes won't happen.

Generally we recharged at 2.3 volts per cell for a day or two, then
2.4 volts for another hour to 3 hours, depending on temperature etc.
Hydrometer testing of one or two batteries in the string told when the
batteries were fully charged - or simply checking to see that all the
cells in a battery were gently and evenly bubbling.
You probably have batteries that are close to fully charged when you
start and what you were doing was closer to a float charge.

If you have a few amps to very different batteries or very different
state of charge Stornin has a good description of what will happen.

Evenly bubbling in a series string is an "equalization" charge and is
occasionally done in a series string like a UPS.

If you charge in parallel and one battery is partly shorted (Low
resistance) it hogs all the power and overheats, while the rest of the
batteries get virtually nothing - and if the charge is not high enough
for that scenario, the bad battery drains all the good ones.
Partly shorted is a red herring.

You can charge normal batteries in parallel. You are OK if it is at a
float charge level (which is close to what you were doing). For a higher
voltage (producing a significant charge current) for a timed period, if
the state of charge is different or amp hour capacity is different you
may lose water in some of the batteries (same as leaving a battery on a
charger too long). It is a little safer than series in that batteries
that are more discharged will have a higher charge current. In a series
string the currents are all the same.

If you want an "authorative" answer look at
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-24.htm.
About half way down the first section it discusses series and parallel
connections - And a series connection with a failed cell has reduced
power - or it quits.
A parallel cell with a bad cell has reduced power or it overheats -
and possibly burns.

So what is the point?

There are limitations on both series and parallel setups. Life is a
series of tradeoffs.
ANd the tradeoffs to parallel charging are more serious than those of
series charging.

You can do as you like - you don't take advise from those with
experience it's your dollars.