I'm constructing a garbage (shopping) bag holder/dispenser consisting
of about 28 inches of 7 inch metal duct pipe, a cap (also duct and
this is actually on the bottom), a webbing strap to attach it to the
wood above the space next to the refrigerator, and vinyl similar to
seat covering to cover the piping and the hand hole in the side.

I was attaching the cap to the bottom with pop rivets but
unfortunately I broke the gun so I'm in the market for a new one. In
reviewing the available options I see that there are ones with 14 and
18 inch handles. Great idea. I'm as weak as a kitten and extra
leverage would help a lot. But...

All this opens up a can of worms. Should the blind side of the rivet
be the same shape as the visible side (i.e. a barely discernible bump)
or should 90% of the blind rivet be still un-flattened? The current
situation is mostly un-flattened but if this is the correct state of
affairs these have to be cut off so they don't tear the bags.

The web is annoyingly simplistic in all the how to's on the subject. I
have yet to find one that describes:

When to use aluminum and when to use steel.

Which # is first (or second). Is the first number the diameter of the
hole I need to drill and the second the thickness of the plate to be
joined? In which case I should be looking at a 1/8 by (18 + 18ga) but
such a rivet doesn't exist. Supply exists of things like 1/8 * 3/8
inches. Yikes! That implies two plates totaling 3/8 inch thick. A
massive piece of steel! Obviously I'm reading this all wrong.

What size and type of gun do the people who use these frequently (not
in a factory environment) choose?

In article , wrote:
I'm constructing a garbage (shopping) bag holder/dispenser consisting
of about 28 inches of 7 inch metal duct pipe, a cap (also duct and
this is actually on the bottom), a webbing strap to attach it to the
wood above the space next to the refrigerator, and vinyl similar to
seat covering to cover the piping and the hand hole in the side.

I was attaching the cap to the bottom with pop rivets but
unfortunately I broke the gun so I'm in the market for a new one. In
reviewing the available options I see that there are ones with 14 and
18 inch handles. Great idea. I'm as weak as a kitten and extra
leverage would help a lot. But...

The handles on mine are only about 10" long, and it's pretty easy to use.
Can't imagine why anyone would need 18" handles on a pop riveter.

All this opens up a can of worms. Should the blind side of the rivet
be the same shape as the visible side (i.e. a barely discernible bump)

No.

or should 90% of the blind rivet be still un-flattened?

No. If that's what you're getting, then you're using the wrong size rivets.
Try getting some that are shorter. What size are you using now?

The current
situation is mostly un-flattened but if this is the correct state of
affairs these have to be cut off so they don't tear the bags.

It's normal for there to be a protruding lump on the back side. It's not
normal for that lump to be much longer than the diameter of the rivet.

The web is annoyingly simplistic in all the how to's on the subject. I
have yet to find one that describes:

When to use aluminum and when to use steel.

When joining pieces of aluminum, or steel, respectively. Obviously.

Which # is first (or second). Is the first number the diameter of the
hole I need to drill

Yes.

and the second the thickness of the plate to be
joined?

Not quite. The second number is the *maximum* combined thickness of
materials that the rivet will fasten together.

In which case I should be looking at a 1/8 by (18 + 18ga) but
such a rivet doesn't exist.

1/8 x 1/4 or 1/8 x 3/16 should work just fine.

Supply exists of things like 1/8 * 3/8
inches. Yikes! That implies two plates totaling 3/8 inch thick. A
massive piece of steel! Obviously I'm reading this all wrong.

3/8" is not "a massive piece of steel" by any stretch of the imagination. A
more common use for a 3/8" long rivet would be attaching sheet metal to 1/4"
steel -- a 1/4" rivet isn't long enough.

What size and type of gun do the people who use these frequently (not
in a factory environment) choose?

I just use a basic hand riveter that I bought at Sears many years ago for
about five bucks.

On Aug 7, 7:54*pm, wrote:
I'm constructing a garbage (shopping) bag holder/dispenser consisting
of about 28 inches of 7 inch metal duct pipe, a cap (also duct and
this is actually on the bottom), a webbing strap to attach it to the
wood above the space next to the refrigerator, and vinyl similar to
seat covering to cover the piping and the hand hole in the side.

I was attaching the cap to the bottom with pop rivets but
unfortunately I broke the gun so I'm in the market for a new one. In
reviewing the available options I see that there are ones with 14 and
18 inch handles. Great idea. I'm as weak as a kitten and extra
leverage would help a lot. But...

All this opens up a can of worms. Should the blind side of the rivet
be the same shape as the visible side (i.e. a barely discernible bump)
or should 90% of the blind rivet be still un-flattened? The current
situation is mostly un-flattened but if this is the correct state of
affairs these have to be cut off so they don't tear the bags.

The web is annoyingly simplistic in all the how to's on the subject. I
have yet to find one that describes:

When to use aluminum and when to use steel.

Which # is first (or second). Is the first number the diameter of the
hole I need to drill and the second the thickness of the plate to be
joined? In which case I should be looking at a 1/8 by (18 + 18ga) but
such a rivet doesn't exist. Supply exists of things like 1/8 * 3/8
inches. Yikes! That implies two plates totaling 3/8 inch thick. A
massive piece of steel! Obviously I'm reading this all wrong.

What size and type of gun do the people who use these frequently (not
in a factory environment) choose?

I made the mistake of buying a standard rivet gun many years ago. I
realized my mistake until one day I needed to use a ¼” rivet. Standard
rivet guns only go up to 3/16” while a ¼” capacity rivet gun can be
used on smaller rivets just by changing the tip. Now I never use my
old rivet gun and it sits in the back of the shop someplace.

(Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , wrote:
I'm constructing a garbage (shopping) bag holder/dispenser consisting
of about 28 inches of 7 inch metal duct pipe, a cap (also duct and
this is actually on the bottom), a webbing strap to attach it to the
wood above the space next to the refrigerator, and vinyl similar to
seat covering to cover the piping and the hand hole in the side.

I was attaching the cap to the bottom with pop rivets but
unfortunately I broke the gun so I'm in the market for a new one. In
reviewing the available options I see that there are ones with 14 and
18 inch handles. Great idea. I'm as weak as a kitten and extra
leverage would help a lot. But...

The handles on mine are only about 10" long, and it's pretty easy to use.
Can't imagine why anyone would need 18" handles on a pop riveter.

Presumably you have no difficulty cutting (say) 7 inch duct pipe with
a manual pair of snips too. I do. It was a wonderful day I ignored the
advice from the HVAC people and purchased a electric snip from
Grizzly. I have the same problem here. Just accept that neither my
right nor my left hand can crush a VW g. Imagine I'm an 8 year old
boy.

All this opens up a can of worms. Should the blind side of the rivet
be the same shape as the visible side (i.e. a barely discernible bump)

No.

or should 90% of the blind rivet be still un-flattened?

No. If that's what you're getting, then you're using the wrong size rivets.
Try getting some that are shorter. What size are you using now?

Looks like about 3/8 inch.

The current
situation is mostly un-flattened but if this is the correct state of
affairs these have to be cut off so they don't tear the bags.

It's normal for there to be a protruding lump on the back side. It's not
normal for that lump to be much longer than the diameter of the rivet.

The web is annoyingly simplistic in all the how to's on the subject. I
have yet to find one that describes:

When to use aluminum and when to use steel.

When joining pieces of aluminum, or steel, respectively. Obviously.

Not obvious. What effect would there be to use aluminum (softer) in a
steel pipe in the absence of moisture and/or electrical conduction
questions? Even if corrosion resulted if it took ten years to manifest
itself it's unimportant given the application. OTOH if the aluminum
rivet will break after five days...that's another story.

Which # is first (or second). Is the first number the diameter of the
hole I need to drill

Yes.

and the second the thickness of the plate to be
joined?

Not quite. The second number is the *maximum* combined thickness of
materials that the rivet will fasten together.

In which case I should be looking at a 1/8 by (18 + 18ga) but
such a rivet doesn't exist.

1/8 x 1/4 or 1/8 x 3/16 should work just fine.

What do the HVAC people use?

Supply exists of things like 1/8 * 3/8
inches. Yikes! That implies two plates totaling 3/8 inch thick. A
massive piece of steel! Obviously I'm reading this all wrong.

3/8" is not "a massive piece of steel" by any stretch of the imagination.

Maybe my imagination stretches further than yours. 3/8 may not be
massive in the context of tank armor but a 3/8 thick duct pipe (or car
door, or refrigerator panel) would be huge.

A
more common use for a 3/8" long rivet would be attaching sheet metal to 1/4"
steel -- a 1/4" rivet isn't long enough.

Why would you ever use a pop rivet in 1/4 steel? Nut, bolt, screw,
tap... a lot more appropriate.

What size and type of gun do the people who use these frequently (not
in a factory environment) choose?

I just use a basic hand riveter that I bought at Sears many years ago for
about five bucks.

wrote:


-snip-

Why would you ever use a pop rivet in 1/4 steel? Nut, bolt, screw,
tap... a lot more appropriate.

Not to attach an info plate, sign, cigar holder, cup holder, or
whatever. Just cause the base is heavy duty, doesn't mean
everything touching it is.

Jim

In article , wrote:
(Doug Miller) wrote:
All this opens up a can of worms. Should the blind side of the rivet
be the same shape as the visible side (i.e. a barely discernible bump)

No.

or should 90% of the blind rivet be still un-flattened?

No. If that's what you're getting, then you're using the wrong size rivets.
Try getting some that are shorter. What size are you using now?

Looks like about 3/8 inch.

*Waaaaaay* too long for riveting two pieces of sheet metal.

The current
situation is mostly un-flattened but if this is the correct state of
affairs these have to be cut off so they don't tear the bags.

It's normal for there to be a protruding lump on the back side. It's not
normal for that lump to be much longer than the diameter of the rivet.

The web is annoyingly simplistic in all the how to's on the subject. I
have yet to find one that describes:

When to use aluminum and when to use steel.

When joining pieces of aluminum, or steel, respectively. Obviously.

Not obvious. What effect would there be to use aluminum (softer) in a
steel pipe in the absence of moisture

"Absence of moisture"? You live in an area where the relative humidity is
*zero* ??

and/or electrical conduction
questions?

Shear strength, if the joint is subjected to physical stress.

Even if corrosion resulted if it took ten years to manifest
itself it's unimportant given the application. OTOH if the aluminum
rivet will break after five days...that's another story.

Depends on how strong the joint needs to be. Use aluminum rivets on aluminum,
and steel rivets on steel. I repeat, this is obvious; if you don't find it so,
then perhaps you should consider that you're already in over your head.

Which # is first (or second). Is the first number the diameter of the
hole I need to drill

Yes.

and the second the thickness of the plate to be
joined?

Not quite. The second number is the *maximum* combined thickness of
materials that the rivet will fasten together.

In which case I should be looking at a 1/8 by (18 + 18ga) but
such a rivet doesn't exist.

1/8 x 1/4 or 1/8 x 3/16 should work just fine.

What do the HVAC people use?

Sheet metal screws.

Supply exists of things like 1/8 * 3/8
inches. Yikes! That implies two plates totaling 3/8 inch thick. A
massive piece of steel! Obviously I'm reading this all wrong.

3/8" is not "a massive piece of steel" by any stretch of the imagination.

Maybe my imagination stretches further than yours. 3/8 may not be
massive in the context of tank armor but a 3/8 thick duct pipe (or car
door, or refrigerator panel) would be huge.

Or maybe you just have an exaggerated view of what "massive" is.

A
more common use for a 3/8" long rivet would be attaching sheet metal to 1/4"
steel -- a 1/4" rivet isn't long enough.

Why would you ever use a pop rivet in 1/4 steel? Nut, bolt, screw,
tap... a lot more appropriate.

And a lot slower -- and hopefully, that makes the answer to your question
"Why"... obvious.

What size and type of gun do the people who use these frequently (not
in a factory environment) choose?

I just use a basic hand riveter that I bought at Sears many years ago for
about five bucks.

You are using the wrong size/type rivets. Here is a site that
gives very explicit details. This link takes you to their button
head rivets:
http://www.blindrivetsupply.com/Butt...Alum_Alum.html
they have other types, etc

I, and most of the professionals I know, use Marson guns:
http://www.blindrivetsupply.com/Rivet_Guns.html
I have several of the HP-2. I do have one that will do 1/4, but
rarely ever get it out.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DanG
Keep the whole world singing . . .


wrote in message
...
I'm constructing a garbage (shopping) bag holder/dispenser
consisting
of about 28 inches of 7 inch metal duct pipe, a cap (also duct
and
this is actually on the bottom), a webbing strap to attach it to
the
wood above the space next to the refrigerator, and vinyl similar
to
seat covering to cover the piping and the hand hole in the side.

I was attaching the cap to the bottom with pop rivets but
unfortunately I broke the gun so I'm in the market for a new
one. In
reviewing the available options I see that there are ones with
14 and
18 inch handles. Great idea. I'm as weak as a kitten and extra
leverage would help a lot. But...

All this opens up a can of worms. Should the blind side of the
rivet
be the same shape as the visible side (i.e. a barely discernible
bump)
or should 90% of the blind rivet be still un-flattened? The
current
situation is mostly un-flattened but if this is the correct
state of
affairs these have to be cut off so they don't tear the bags.

The web is annoyingly simplistic in all the how to's on the
subject. I
have yet to find one that describes:

When to use aluminum and when to use steel.

Which # is first (or second). Is the first number the diameter
of the
hole I need to drill and the second the thickness of the plate
to be
joined? In which case I should be looking at a 1/8 by (18 +
18ga) but
such a rivet doesn't exist. Supply exists of things like 1/8 *
3/8
inches. Yikes! That implies two plates totaling 3/8 inch thick.
A
massive piece of steel! Obviously I'm reading this all wrong.

What size and type of gun do the people who use these frequently
(not
in a factory environment) choose?

(Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , wrote:
(Doug Miller) wrote:

No. If that's what you're getting, then you're using the wrong size rivets.
Try getting some that are shorter. What size are you using now?

Looks like about 3/8 inch.

*Waaaaaay* too long for riveting two pieces of sheet metal.

Well, that's the smallest size that came with my Sears Craftsman
riveter kit about 20 years ago. You can see that I don't use these too
often.

Not obvious. What effect would there be to use aluminum (softer) in a
steel pipe in the absence of moisture

"Absence of moisture"? You live in an area where the relative humidity is
*zero* ??

I can see you're an argumentative type. As you probably realize when
I'm talking about the absence of moisture I'm referring to an
application such as a plumbing pipe where you mix (say) copper or
brass and steel an set up a galvanic reaction. The moisture affecting
my application is going to be trivial.

and/or electrical conduction
questions?

Shear strength, if the joint is subjected to physical stress.

You know what the application is. I described it in my first post. No
physical stress is likely to be involved.

Even if corrosion resulted if it took ten years to manifest
itself it's unimportant given the application. OTOH if the aluminum
rivet will break after five days...that's another story.

Depends on how strong the joint needs to be. Use aluminum rivets on aluminum,
and steel rivets on steel. I repeat, this is obvious; if you don't find it so,
then perhaps you should consider that you're already in over your head.

In over my head? What are you? Some rivet expert talking down to the
amateurs?

What do the HVAC people use?

Sheet metal screws.

Right Mr Expert. Maybe you should upgrade your knowledge. Have a look
at a cap such as the 7" sheet metal cap I'm using. How was that
constructed? With friggin' pop rivets and designed by a real expert in
a factory! What size pop rivets are used? A reply to that question
would also answer mine.

Fortunately Dan G gave a pertinent helpful answer.

In article , wrote:
(Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
(Doug Miller) wrote:

No. If that's what you're getting, then you're using the wrong size rivets.
Try getting some that are shorter. What size are you using now?

Looks like about 3/8 inch.

*Waaaaaay* too long for riveting two pieces of sheet metal.

Well, that's the smallest size that came with my Sears Craftsman
riveter kit about 20 years ago. You can see that I don't use these too
often.

Not obvious. What effect would there be to use aluminum (softer) in a
steel pipe in the absence of moisture

"Absence of moisture"? You live in an area where the relative humidity is
*zero* ??

I can see you're an argumentative type. As you probably realize when
I'm talking about the absence of moisture I'm referring to an
application such as a plumbing pipe where you mix (say) copper or
brass and steel an set up a galvanic reaction. The moisture affecting
my application is going to be trivial.

and/or electrical conduction
questions?

Shear strength, if the joint is subjected to physical stress.

You know what the application is. I described it in my first post. No
physical stress is likely to be involved.

Even if corrosion resulted if it took ten years to manifest
itself it's unimportant given the application. OTOH if the aluminum
rivet will break after five days...that's another story.

Depends on how strong the joint needs to be. Use aluminum rivets on aluminum,
and steel rivets on steel. I repeat, this is obvious; if you don't find it so,

then perhaps you should consider that you're already in over your head.

In over my head? What are you? Some rivet expert talking down to the
amateurs?

*You're* the one who can't figure out how to use simple tools, Rocket
Scientist.