Got a client with an outdoor low-voltage lighting system in need of
repair. Basically just 7 surface-mount lights on a stairway outside.

It's currently wired with some kind of zip cord, which may or may not be
the right stuff. (Looks like 12-14 ga.) Here's what I'm proposing to do:

Tear out most or all of the existing wiring, which is partially buried,
partially above ground. Using the existing fixtures where possible (see
below), rewire using new wire of the correct type, burying cable as needed.

What I'm not sure about is the following:

1. Correct type of cable to use:
Checked at Home Despot, which sells something identified as "landscape
lighting cable" in the form of 2-conductor zip cord, black, in several
gauges. I'll probably use 12, as the run is less than 200' total, and
voltage drop isn't currently an issue (when the system was working, all
lights were equally bright).

Is this stuff OK to use outside? Two issues I can think of: buriabilty
and resistance to sunlight. Parts of the existing wiring have
deteriorated to the point of shorting out.

I understand from some online sources (like this one:
http://www.iaei.org/magazine/?p=2290) that what I should be looking for
is type SPT-3 cable. Is that right? According to this article, it needs
to be buried 6" (except under driveways and such, which isn't an issue
here).

I realize I could use UF for this project, but that would be more
difficult for several reasons, and much more expensive (UF is about
twice the cost of the zip cord for the same gauge). So I think I want to
stick with the zip-cord stuff. With UF, I'd either have to use junction
boxes at each light, or figure out some Rube Goldberg way of connecting
the lamps to the UF.

2. Connections:
The replacement lights I've looked at all have what I consider to be
cheesy connectors on them, the type that stab into the cable and pierce
the insulation. Not much better than those quick plugs that squeeze down
on the cord and pierce it.

So I'm planning on going either with wire-nut connections or soldered
connections. I'm thinking that soldering, which probably the best
solution, is probably overkill, and makes later maintenance more
difficult. So it seems to me that a good wire-nutted connection, wrapped
in lots of electrical tape to keep out moisture, would be acceptable.

3. Light fixtures:
Currently the fixtures are those little round surface-mount ones that
take a 7-watt halogen bulb, made of plastic. These appear to be all
that's available today, at least easily: on a recent grueling research
trip I visited both Orchard and Home Despot, which both have those
Malibu units. Home Despot wins here because they also have these in
metal instead of plastic. However, the metal ones aren't really much
better, because in all of these fixtures, the weak point is the lamp
socket, which appears to be identical in all types, just a simple
push-in type of socket.

If anyone knows of better fixtures (that don't cost an arm and a leg),
I'd appreciate knowing of them. These ones can be had for about $12 for
the metal ones.

And no, the homeowners don't want different lights, like those
upward-pointing ones or ones on stakes on the ground.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...
Got a client with an outdoor low-voltage lighting system in need of
repair. Basically just 7 surface-mount lights on a stairway outside.

It's currently wired with some kind of zip cord, which may or may not be
the right stuff. (Looks like 12-14 ga.) Here's what I'm proposing to do:

Tear out most or all of the existing wiring, which is partially buried,
partially above ground. Using the existing fixtures where possible (see
below), rewire using new wire of the correct type, burying cable as
needed.

What I'm not sure about is the following:

1. Correct type of cable to use:
Checked at Home Despot, which sells something identified as "landscape
lighting cable" in the form of 2-conductor zip cord, black, in several
gauges. I'll probably use 12, as the run is less than 200' total, and
voltage drop isn't currently an issue (when the system was working, all
lights were equally bright).

Is this stuff OK to use outside? Two issues I can think of: buriabilty and
resistance to sunlight. Parts of the existing wiring have deteriorated to
the point of shorting out.

I understand from some online sources (like this one:
http://www.iaei.org/magazine/?p=2290) that what I should be looking for is
type SPT-3 cable. Is that right? According to this article, it needs to be
buried 6" (except under driveways and such, which isn't an issue here).

I realize I could use UF for this project, but that would be more
difficult for several reasons, and much more expensive (UF is about twice
the cost of the zip cord for the same gauge). So I think I want to stick
with the zip-cord stuff. With UF, I'd either have to use junction boxes at
each light, or figure out some Rube Goldberg way of connecting the lamps
to the UF.

2. Connections:
The replacement lights I've looked at all have what I consider to be
cheesy connectors on them, the type that stab into the cable and pierce
the insulation. Not much better than those quick plugs that squeeze down
on the cord and pierce it.

So I'm planning on going either with wire-nut connections or soldered
connections. I'm thinking that soldering, which probably the best
solution, is probably overkill, and makes later maintenance more
difficult. So it seems to me that a good wire-nutted connection, wrapped
in lots of electrical tape to keep out moisture, would be acceptable.

3. Light fixtures:
Currently the fixtures are those little round surface-mount ones that take
a 7-watt halogen bulb, made of plastic. These appear to be all that's
available today, at least easily: on a recent grueling research trip I
visited both Orchard and Home Despot, which both have those Malibu units.
Home Despot wins here because they also have these in metal instead of
plastic. However, the metal ones aren't really much better, because in all
of these fixtures, the weak point is the lamp socket, which appears to be
identical in all types, just a simple push-in type of socket.

If anyone knows of better fixtures (that don't cost an arm and a leg), I'd
appreciate knowing of them. These ones can be had for about $12 for the
metal ones.

And no, the homeowners don't want different lights, like those
upward-pointing ones or ones on stakes on the ground.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)


The low voltage stuff is designed to work with an oversized zip cord. That
is all it needs.

Dim lights can be caused by corroded contact where the wire is bitten.

A 200 foot run sounds a little long for most of those units.


--
Colbyt
Please come visit http://www.househomerepair.com

On 7/25/2010 2:56 PM Colbyt spake thus:

The low voltage stuff is designed to work with an oversized zip cord. That
is all it needs.

Well, OK, but what about burying it? exposure to sunlight?

Dim lights can be caused by corroded contact where the wire is bitten.

Problem is not dim lights. But that's just more confirmation why I don't
like those cheesy connectors that come with the LV fixtures.

A 200 foot run sounds a little long for most of those units.

I said the run was less than 200'; I just mentioned that because the
page I referred to (http://www.iaei.org/magazine/?p=2290) said that "12
AWG is recommended for runs up to 200 feet". So I should be fine with 12 ga.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

On Jul 25, 4:59*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
Got a client with an outdoor low-voltage lighting system in need of
repair. Basically just 7 surface-mount lights on a stairway outside.

It's currently wired with some kind of zip cord, which may or may not be
the right stuff. (Looks like 12-14 ga.) Here's what I'm proposing to do:

Tear out most or all of the existing wiring, which is partially buried,
partially above ground. Using the existing fixtures where possible (see
below), rewire using new wire of the correct type, burying cable as needed.

What I'm not sure about is the following:

1. Correct type of cable to use:
Checked at Home Despot, which sells something identified as "landscape
lighting cable" in the form of 2-conductor zip cord, black, in several
gauges. I'll probably use 12, as the run is less than 200' total, and
voltage drop isn't currently an issue (when the system was working, all
lights were equally bright).

Is this stuff OK to use outside? Two issues I can think of: buriabilty
and resistance to sunlight. Parts of the existing wiring have
deteriorated to the point of shorting out.

I understand from some online sources (like this one:http://www.iaei.org/magazine/?p=2290) that what I should be looking for
is type SPT-3 cable. Is that right? According to this article, it needs
to be buried 6" (except under driveways and such, which isn't an issue
here).

I realize I could use UF for this project, but that would be more
difficult for several reasons, and much more expensive (UF is about
twice the cost of the zip cord for the same gauge). So I think I want to
stick with the zip-cord stuff. With UF, I'd either have to use junction
boxes at each light, or figure out some Rube Goldberg way of connecting
the lamps to the UF.

2. Connections:
The replacement lights I've looked at all have what I consider to be
cheesy connectors on them, the type that stab into the cable and pierce
the insulation. Not much better than those quick plugs that squeeze down
* on the cord and pierce it.

So I'm planning on going either with wire-nut connections or soldered
connections. I'm thinking that soldering, which probably the best
solution, is probably overkill, and makes later maintenance more
difficult. So it seems to me that a good wire-nutted connection, wrapped
in lots of electrical tape to keep out moisture, would be acceptable.

3. Light fixtures:
Currently the fixtures are those little round surface-mount ones that
take a 7-watt halogen bulb, made of plastic. These appear to be all
that's available today, at least easily: on a recent grueling research
trip I visited both Orchard and Home Despot, which both have those
Malibu units. Home Despot wins here because they also have these in
metal instead of plastic. However, the metal ones aren't really much
better, because in all of these fixtures, the weak point is the lamp
socket, which appears to be identical in all types, just a simple
push-in type of socket.

If anyone knows of better fixtures (that don't cost an arm and a leg),
I'd appreciate knowing of them. These ones can be had for about $12 for
the metal ones.

And no, the homeowners don't want different lights, like those
upward-pointing ones or ones on stakes on the ground.

--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)



If you object to the cheesy connectors, go out and buy REAL
connectors like Scotchlok IDC connectors which seal the
connection with a sealant when you crimp the connection...

A real electrical supply house is where you would have to
go to find "real" electrical supplies...

~~ Evan

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...
On 7/25/2010 2:56 PM Colbyt spake thus:

The low voltage stuff is designed to work with an oversized zip cord.
That is all it needs.

Well, OK, but what about burying it? exposure to sunlight?



Never had any problems over 10 years with either. Burying the cheap clamp
connectors can lead to problems much sooner.

On 7/25/2010 3:55 PM Evan spake thus:

On Jul 25, 4:59 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

2. Connections:
The replacement lights I've looked at all have what I consider to be
cheesy connectors on them, the type that stab into the cable and pierce
the insulation. Not much better than those quick plugs that squeeze down
on the cord and pierce it.

So I'm planning on going either with wire-nut connections or soldered
connections. I'm thinking that soldering, which probably the best
solution, is probably overkill, and makes later maintenance more
difficult. So it seems to me that a good wire-nutted connection, wrapped
in lots of electrical tape to keep out moisture, would be acceptable.

If you object to the cheesy connectors, go out and buy REAL
connectors like Scotchlok IDC connectors which seal the
connection with a sealant when you crimp the connection...

So how would you rate these compared to wire nuts and solder plus
electrical tape?

A real electrical supply house is where you would have to
go to find "real" electrical supplies...

I'm quite aware of this. I go to HD because it's close to me and
(sometimes) cheaper. But the real supply house ('round heah it's Emperor
Electric Supply in downtown Oakland, a Chinese-owned business) is the
place to go.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...
Got a client with an outdoor low-voltage lighting system in need of
repair. Basically just 7 surface-mount lights on a stairway outside.

It's currently wired with some kind of zip cord, which may or may not be
the right stuff. (Looks like 12-14 ga.) Here's what I'm proposing to do:

Tear out most or all of the existing wiring, which is partially buried,
partially above ground. Using the existing fixtures where possible (see
below), rewire using new wire of the correct type, burying cable as
needed.

What I'm not sure about is the following:

1. Correct type of cable to use:
Checked at Home Despot, which sells something identified as "landscape
lighting cable" in the form of 2-conductor zip cord, black, in several
gauges. I'll probably use 12, as the run is less than 200' total, and
voltage drop isn't currently an issue (when the system was working, all
lights were equally bright).

Is this stuff OK to use outside? Two issues I can think of: buriabilty and
resistance to sunlight. Parts of the existing wiring have deteriorated to
the point of shorting out.

I understand from some online sources (like this one:
http://www.iaei.org/magazine/?p=2290) that what I should be looking for is
type SPT-3 cable. Is that right? According to this article, it needs to be
buried 6" (except under driveways and such, which isn't an issue here).

I realize I could use UF for this project, but that would be more
difficult for several reasons, and much more expensive (UF is about twice
the cost of the zip cord for the same gauge). So I think I want to stick
with the zip-cord stuff. With UF, I'd either have to use junction boxes at
each light, or figure out some Rube Goldberg way of connecting the lamps
to the UF.

2. Connections:
The replacement lights I've looked at all have what I consider to be
cheesy connectors on them, the type that stab into the cable and pierce
the insulation. Not much better than those quick plugs that squeeze down
on the cord and pierce it.

So I'm planning on going either with wire-nut connections or soldered
connections. I'm thinking that soldering, which probably the best
solution, is probably overkill, and makes later maintenance more
difficult. So it seems to me that a good wire-nutted connection, wrapped
in lots of electrical tape to keep out moisture, would be acceptable.

3. Light fixtures:
Currently the fixtures are those little round surface-mount ones that take
a 7-watt halogen bulb, made of plastic. These appear to be all that's
available today, at least easily: on a recent grueling research trip I
visited both Orchard and Home Despot, which both have those Malibu units.
Home Despot wins here because they also have these in metal instead of
plastic. However, the metal ones aren't really much better, because in all
of these fixtures, the weak point is the lamp socket, which appears to be
identical in all types, just a simple push-in type of socket.

If anyone knows of better fixtures (that don't cost an arm and a leg), I'd
appreciate knowing of them. These ones can be had for about $12 for the
metal ones.

And no, the homeowners don't want different lights, like those
upward-pointing ones or ones on stakes on the ground.


You migaht also do a little research / consideration on the wiring. Right
now you only have 49 watts of lights, but if in the future more or stronger
lights are added, you might have some visible differences. These can be
avoided by connecting both ends of the wire to the transformer terminals,
making a continuous loop. New timers/transformers should have more detailed
instructions on this in their information sheets.

There is also a lot of information at
http://www.residential-landscape-lighting-design.com/, which also covers the
loop method.

David Nebenzahl wrote:
Got a client with an outdoor low-voltage lighting system in need of
repair. Basically just 7 surface-mount lights on a stairway outside.

It's currently wired with some kind of zip cord, which may or may not
be the right stuff. (Looks like 12-14 ga.) Here's what I'm proposing
to do:
Tear out most or all of the existing wiring, which is partially
buried, partially above ground. Using the existing fixtures where
possible (see below), rewire using new wire of the correct type,
burying cable as needed.
What I'm not sure about is the following:

1. Correct type of cable to use:
Checked at Home Despot, which sells something identified as "landscape
lighting cable" in the form of 2-conductor zip cord, black, in several
gauges. I'll probably use 12, as the run is less than 200' total, and
voltage drop isn't currently an issue (when the system was working,
all lights were equally bright).

Is this stuff OK to use outside? Two issues I can think of: buriabilty
and resistance to sunlight. Parts of the existing wiring have
deteriorated to the point of shorting out.

I understand from some online sources (like this one:
http://www.iaei.org/magazine/?p=2290) that what I should be looking
for is type SPT-3 cable. Is that right? According to this article, it
needs to be buried 6" (except under driveways and such, which isn't an
issue
here).

I realize I could use UF for this project, but that would be more
difficult for several reasons, and much more expensive (UF is about
twice the cost of the zip cord for the same gauge). So I think I want
to stick with the zip-cord stuff. With UF, I'd either have to use
junction boxes at each light, or figure out some Rube Goldberg way of
connecting the lamps to the UF.

2. Connections:
The replacement lights I've looked at all have what I consider to be
cheesy connectors on them, the type that stab into the cable and
pierce the insulation. Not much better than those quick plugs that
squeeze down on the cord and pierce it.

So I'm planning on going either with wire-nut connections or soldered
connections. I'm thinking that soldering, which probably the best
solution, is probably overkill, and makes later maintenance more
difficult. So it seems to me that a good wire-nutted connection,
wrapped in lots of electrical tape to keep out moisture, would be
acceptable.
3. Light fixtures:
Currently the fixtures are those little round surface-mount ones that
take a 7-watt halogen bulb, made of plastic. These appear to be all
that's available today, at least easily: on a recent grueling research
trip I visited both Orchard and Home Despot, which both have those
Malibu units. Home Despot wins here because they also have these in
metal instead of plastic. However, the metal ones aren't really much
better, because in all of these fixtures, the weak point is the lamp
socket, which appears to be identical in all types, just a simple
push-in type of socket.

If anyone knows of better fixtures (that don't cost an arm and a leg),
I'd appreciate knowing of them. These ones can be had for about $12
for the metal ones.

And no, the homeowners don't want different lights, like those
upward-pointing ones or ones on stakes on the ground.

On the other hand, how long has this "crappy" configuration worked without a
problem?

If more than five years or so, I'd just duplicate it. Maybe seal the
contacts with Silicone.caulk.

David Nebenzahl wrote:
Got a client with an outdoor low-voltage lighting system in need of
repair. Basically just 7 surface-mount lights on a stairway outside.

It's currently wired with some kind of zip cord, which may or may not be
the right stuff. (Looks like 12-14 ga.) Here's what I'm proposing to do:

Tear out most or all of the existing wiring, which is partially buried,
partially above ground. Using the existing fixtures where possible (see
below), rewire using new wire of the correct type, burying cable as needed.

What I'm not sure about is the following:

1. Correct type of cable to use:
Checked at Home Despot, which sells something identified as "landscape
lighting cable" in the form of 2-conductor zip cord, black, in several
gauges. I'll probably use 12, as the run is less than 200' total, and
voltage drop isn't currently an issue (when the system was working, all
lights were equally bright).

Is this stuff OK to use outside? Two issues I can think of: buriabilty
and resistance to sunlight. Parts of the existing wiring have
deteriorated to the point of shorting out.

I understand from some online sources (like this one:
http://www.iaei.org/magazine/?p=2290) that what I should be looking for
is type SPT-3 cable. Is that right? According to this article, it needs
to be buried 6" (except under driveways and such, which isn't an issue
here).

I realize I could use UF for this project, but that would be more
difficult for several reasons, and much more expensive (UF is about
twice the cost of the zip cord for the same gauge). So I think I want to
stick with the zip-cord stuff. With UF, I'd either have to use junction
boxes at each light, or figure out some Rube Goldberg way of connecting
the lamps to the UF.

2. Connections:
The replacement lights I've looked at all have what I consider to be
cheesy connectors on them, the type that stab into the cable and pierce
the insulation. Not much better than those quick plugs that squeeze down
on the cord and pierce it.

So I'm planning on going either with wire-nut connections or soldered
connections. I'm thinking that soldering, which probably the best
solution, is probably overkill, and makes later maintenance more
difficult. So it seems to me that a good wire-nutted connection, wrapped
in lots of electrical tape to keep out moisture, would be acceptable.

3. Light fixtures:
Currently the fixtures are those little round surface-mount ones that
take a 7-watt halogen bulb, made of plastic. These appear to be all
that's available today, at least easily: on a recent grueling research
trip I visited both Orchard and Home Despot, which both have those
Malibu units. Home Despot wins here because they also have these in
metal instead of plastic. However, the metal ones aren't really much
better, because in all of these fixtures, the weak point is the lamp
socket, which appears to be identical in all types, just a simple
push-in type of socket.

If anyone knows of better fixtures (that don't cost an arm and a leg),
I'd appreciate knowing of them. These ones can be had for about $12 for
the metal ones.

And no, the homeowners don't want different lights, like those
upward-pointing ones or ones on stakes on the ground.

I don't know with modern day zip cord, but some old stuff was good in uv
light and some was really bad (florescent lights inside) . Working on
old/antique juke boxes the one brand "AMI" was always known for the
insulation almost falling off the wires. Other brands the same age and
similar lights were just fine.

On Jul 25, 4:59*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
Got a client with an outdoor low-voltage lighting system in need of
repair. Basically just 7 surface-mount lights on a stairway outside.

It's currently wired with some kind of zip cord, which may or may not be
the right stuff. (Looks like 12-14 ga.) Here's what I'm proposing to do:

Tear out most or all of the existing wiring, which is partially buried,
partially above ground. Using the existing fixtures where possible (see
below), rewire using new wire of the correct type, burying cable as needed.

What I'm not sure about is the following:

1. Correct type of cable to use:
Checked at Home Despot, which sells something identified as "landscape
lighting cable" in the form of 2-conductor zip cord, black, in several
gauges. I'll probably use 12, as the run is less than 200' total, and
voltage drop isn't currently an issue (when the system was working, all
lights were equally bright).

Is this stuff OK to use outside? Two issues I can think of: buriabilty
and resistance to sunlight. Parts of the existing wiring have
deteriorated to the point of shorting out.

I understand from some online sources (like this one:http://www.iaei.org/magazine/?p=2290) that what I should be looking for
is type SPT-3 cable. Is that right? According to this article, it needs
to be buried 6" (except under driveways and such, which isn't an issue
here).

I realize I could use UF for this project, but that would be more
difficult for several reasons, and much more expensive (UF is about
twice the cost of the zip cord for the same gauge). So I think I want to
stick with the zip-cord stuff. With UF, I'd either have to use junction
boxes at each light, or figure out some Rube Goldberg way of connecting
the lamps to the UF.

2. Connections:
The replacement lights I've looked at all have what I consider to be
cheesy connectors on them, the type that stab into the cable and pierce
the insulation. Not much better than those quick plugs that squeeze down
* on the cord and pierce it.

So I'm planning on going either with wire-nut connections or soldered
connections. I'm thinking that soldering, which probably the best
solution, is probably overkill, and makes later maintenance more
difficult. So it seems to me that a good wire-nutted connection, wrapped
in lots of electrical tape to keep out moisture, would be acceptable.

3. Light fixtures:
Currently the fixtures are those little round surface-mount ones that
take a 7-watt halogen bulb, made of plastic. These appear to be all
that's available today, at least easily: on a recent grueling research
trip I visited both Orchard and Home Despot, which both have those
Malibu units. Home Despot wins here because they also have these in
metal instead of plastic. However, the metal ones aren't really much
better, because in all of these fixtures, the weak point is the lamp
socket, which appears to be identical in all types, just a simple
push-in type of socket.

If anyone knows of better fixtures (that don't cost an arm and a leg),
I'd appreciate knowing of them. These ones can be had for about $12 for
the metal ones.

And no, the homeowners don't want different lights, like those
upward-pointing ones or ones on stakes on the ground.

--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

The black 12ga cord is what they all use. It's fine. The stab
connectors are ok for a while but do eventually corrode. Moving them
to another spot on the wire fixes that. A better connection would
last longer but is more work. Don't bury the connections if at all
possible. Most of the light fixtures have a way to loop the cord
inside the fixture so you do no thave to bury the connection.

While we are on this subject, is there such a thing as high-quality low
voltage outdoor lighting ??? The stuff at the big box stores is SO cheap,
and the bulb sockets are so crude, always causing problems over time....

thanks !!

James

On Sun, 25 Jul 2010 22:00:03 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

If more than five years or so, I'd just duplicate it. Maybe seal the
contacts with Silicone.caulk.

Yes. Skin the wires past corrosion. Wire cap it and fill the cap with
silicone. No moisture in the connection.

On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:08:59 -0400, "James"
wrote:

While we are on this subject, is there such a thing as high-quality low
voltage outdoor lighting ??? The stuff at the big box stores is SO cheap,
and the bulb sockets are so crude, always causing problems over time....


Short answer is NO.

Honestly I didn't check on what QVC is touting.

On Jul 25, 7:46*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 7/25/2010 3:55 PM Evan spake thus:



On Jul 25, 4:59 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

2. Connections:
The replacement lights I've looked at all have what I consider to be
cheesy connectors on them, the type that stab into the cable and pierce
the insulation. Not much better than those quick plugs that squeeze down
on the cord and pierce it.

So I'm planning on going either with wire-nut connections or soldered
connections. I'm thinking that soldering, which probably the best
solution, is probably overkill, and makes later maintenance more
difficult. So it seems to me that a good wire-nutted connection, wrapped
in lots of electrical tape to keep out moisture, would be acceptable.

If you object to the cheesy connectors, go out and buy REAL
connectors like Scotchlok IDC connectors which seal the
connection with a sealant when you crimp the connection...

So how would you rate these compared to wire nuts and solder plus
electrical tape?

A real electrical supply house is where you would have to
go to find "real" electrical supplies...

I'm quite aware of this. I go to HD because it's close to me and
(sometimes) cheaper. But the real supply house ('round heah it's Emperor
* Electric Supply in downtown Oakland, a Chinese-owned business) is the
place to go.

--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)


Well, you wouldn't be using wire nuts AND solder... So which
connection method did you have in mind ?

Wire nuts and tape will eventually leak unless they are protected
within an enclosure... Soldering every connection is overkill...

You complained about the cheesy IDC connectors included
with the lighting kits, my recommendation is to seek out
more expensive IDC connectors which seal the connection
with a sealant which has been tested for use with electrical
devices...

~~ Evan

In article ,
Oren wrote:

On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:08:59 -0400, "James"
wrote:

While we are on this subject, is there such a thing as high-quality low
voltage outdoor lighting ??? The stuff at the big box stores is SO cheap,
and the bulb sockets are so crude, always causing problems over time....


Short answer is NO.



And the longer and more useful answer is, Of course there is. And, of
course it isn't available at the big box. Be prepared to pay real money
for real quality, though.

" While we are on this subject, is there such a thing as high-quality low
voltage outdoor lighting ??? The stuff at the big box stores is SO
cheap,
and the bulb sockets are so crude, always causing problems over time....


*Check out Kichler and also Hadco. I recently installed a bunch of Kichler
lights around some steps. I was very impressed with the durability. Of
course they listed for around $300.00 for each fixture.

On Jul 27, 7:10*am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
" While we are on this subject, is there such a thing as high-quality low

voltage outdoor lighting ??? *The stuff at the big box stores is *SO
cheap,
and the bulb sockets are so crude, always causing problems over time.....

*Check out Kichler and also Hadco. *I recently installed a bunch of Kichler
lights around some steps. *I was very impressed with the durability. *Of
course they listed for around $300.00 for each fixture.

With that price you can install a complete new cheap set every 5 years
for the next 30 years. Hadco still has a "quick connector". Is that
a crimp on that breaks the insulation? Cause that's the same thing
the cheap ones have and the problem is long term they corrode.

John Grabowski wrote:

" While we are on this subject, is there such a thing as high-quality low
voltage outdoor lighting ??? The stuff at the big box stores is SO
cheap,
and the bulb sockets are so crude, always causing problems over time....


*Check out Kichler and also Hadco. I recently installed a bunch of
Kichler lights around some steps. I was very impressed with the
durability. Of course they listed for around $300.00 for each fixture.

At that price I think I'd run 120VAC and forget the low voltage stuff.

On Jul 27, 11:52*am, Tony wrote:
John Grabowski wrote:

" While we are on this subject, is there such a thing as high-quality low
voltage outdoor lighting ??? *The stuff at the big box stores is *SO
cheap,
and the bulb sockets are so crude, always causing problems over time.....

*Check out Kichler and also Hadco. *I recently installed a bunch of
Kichler lights around some steps. *I was very impressed with the
durability. *Of course they listed for around $300.00 for each fixture.

At that price I think I'd run 120VAC and forget the low voltage stuff.

Good point. 120 is far less affected by connection resistance than
low voltage. The main problem I find with all the outdoor low voltage
stuff is long term the connections and the bulb sockets develop
tarnish or corrosion.

On 7/25/2010 1:59 PM David Nebenzahl spake thus:

Got a client with an outdoor low-voltage lighting system in need of
repair. Basically just 7 surface-mount lights on a stairway outside.

It's currently wired with some kind of zip cord, which may or may not be
the right stuff. (Looks like 12-14 ga.) Here's what I'm proposing to do:

Tear out most or all of the existing wiring, which is partially buried,
partially above ground. Using the existing fixtures where possible (see
below), rewire using new wire of the correct type, burying cable as needed.

String of lights was fixed yesterday. Was a lot easier than I had figured.

Turns out the zip-type cord used (which was SJT-3, by the way) was 16
gauge, which turned out to be plenty heavy enough for this installation.
Total length of run is about 75-80'.

There was a large loop of extra cord available, so I just used it. I
made connections with wire nuts, stripping the wire down to fresh bright
copper, and wrapping the wire nut connection well in electrical tape. I
figure this'll last at least as long as the existing connections, which
are the push-on pierce-the-insulation type. All the existing connections
were intact, by the way, so I left them (under the theory of IIABDFI).

The homeowners are happy to have their lights back working.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

Tony wrote:

At that price I think I'd run 120VAC and forget the low voltage stuff.

Home Depot has some good high quality 12v fixtures. I did a 250' driveway with
12 fixtures. List price on the fixture was $120/ea, HD had them for 1/2 that and
ran a sale for a while for less than $30.

On 7/27/2010 4:10 AM John Grabowski spake thus:

[some unattributed person wrote]

While we are on this subject, is there such a thing as high-quality
low voltage outdoor lighting ??? The stuff at the big box stores is
SO cheap, and the bulb sockets are so crude, always causing
problems over time....

*Check out Kichler and also Hadco. I recently installed a bunch of Kichler
lights around some steps. I was very impressed with the durability. Of
course they listed for around $300.00 for each fixture.

Well, that's not very helpful, now is it?

I mean, no way in hell would my clients here (I'm the OP) even consider
such fixtures. And the woman of the house is someone who knows lighting
and has taught classes on the subject.

I have no doubt that such overpriced fixtures are available, no doubt
the type specified by architects for certain projects.

There must be something in between this gold-plated stuff and the Malibu
crap one finds at Home Despot and elsewhere. Anyone have any specific
suggestions? Yeah, I know I could do a web search, but it'd be nice to
hear from someone who has some knowledge of the subject and a reason to
recommend a particular line of fixtures.

Just to be specific here, the fixtures my clients have, the little round
surface-mount Malibu 7 watt lights, don't look bad. The main problem is
that they have crappy sockets and take those little wedge-base bulbs.
Something more substantial, perhaps a bayonet base or something similar
that positively locks the bulb in, would be a big improvement.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

David Nebenzahl wrote:

There must be something in between this gold-plated stuff and the Malibu
crap one finds at Home Despot and elsewhere. Anyone have any specific
suggestions?

You need to draw a distinction between what Home Depot stocks in their retail
locations (I agree - Malibu is crap) and what they sell through their web site.
They no longer show the Progress Lighting fixtures I bought, but I'd stack the
quality against any other mid grade brand.

It's quite a bit more expensive here, but this will give you an idea about
what's available. They still use the bayonet mount bulbs, but I've not had a
problem in 24 months.

http://www.arcadianlighting.com/pg-p5250-33.html

On 7/27/2010 8:03 PM Robert Neville spake thus:

It's quite a bit more expensive here, but this will give you an idea about
what's available. They still use the bayonet mount bulbs, but I've not had a
problem in 24 months.

http://www.arcadianlighting.com/pg-p5250-33.html

Thanks. But those fixtures are still pretty expen$ive ($130).

And I was saying that bayonet-mount bulbs are *better* than those little
wedge-base thingies; at least the bayonet socket holds the bulb securely
under spring tension.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

In article ,
Tony wrote:

John Grabowski wrote:

" While we are on this subject, is there such a thing as high-quality low
voltage outdoor lighting ??? The stuff at the big box stores is SO
cheap,
and the bulb sockets are so crude, always causing problems over time....


*Check out Kichler and also Hadco. I recently installed a bunch of
Kichler lights around some steps. I was very impressed with the
durability. Of course they listed for around $300.00 for each fixture.

At that price I think I'd run 120VAC and forget the low voltage stuff.

Sure. But the good 120 volt units are also in that price range. Why do
people whine and snivel about quality, and then whine and snivel about
the price of the good stuff? If you can't afford the good stuff, do
without, I say.

On Jul 27, 11:46*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,

*Tony wrote:
John Grabowski wrote:

" While we are on this subject, is there such a thing as high-quality low
voltage outdoor lighting ??? *The stuff at the big box stores is *SO
cheap,
and the bulb sockets are so crude, always causing problems over time.....

*Check out Kichler and also Hadco. *I recently installed a bunch of
Kichler lights around some steps. *I was very impressed with the
durability. *Of course they listed for around $300.00 for each fixture.

At that price I think I'd run 120VAC and forget the low voltage stuff.

Sure. But the good 120 volt units are also in that price range. Why do
people whine and snivel about quality, and then whine and snivel about
the price of the good stuff? If you can't afford the good stuff, do
without, I say.

I like bayonet. I put marine grease on the bayonet bulbs in my
motorcycle. That solves the corrosion issues. I thiink you can use
other greases as well, just that I have marine grease around for the
boat. I think the base of the wedge ones would get too hot to do this.

Robert Neville wrote:

They still use the bayonet mount bulbs

Correction - wedge mount.

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Thanks. But those fixtures are still pretty expen$ive ($130).


Yes - but they are available for much less - you just have to search. When HD
online stocked them, they were $60 and they had a sale for about 1/2 that.

And I was saying that bayonet-mount bulbs are *better* than those little
wedge-base thingies; at least the bayonet socket holds the bulb securely
under spring tension.

My mistake - these are the wedge type bulb mounts. But in almost 2 years I've
not had a problem.

On Jul 28, 9:08*am, Robert Neville wrote:
David Nebenzahl wrote:
Thanks. But those fixtures are still pretty expen$ive ($130).

Yes - but they are available for much less - you just have to search. When HD
online stocked them, they were $60 and they had a sale for about 1/2 that..

And I was saying that bayonet-mount bulbs are *better* than those little
wedge-base thingies; at least the bayonet socket holds the bulb securely
under spring tension.

My mistake - these are the wedge type bulb mounts. But in almost 2 years I've
not had a problem.

The wedge mount bulbs do eventually develop connection problems. The
contact area is small. A little emory board or fine sandpaper fixes
them. Unfortunately I think they get too hot at the base to use any
sort of grease on them. I don't know why none of them use bayonet
bulbs.

jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jul 27, 11:46 pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,

Tony wrote:
John Grabowski wrote:
" While we are on this subject, is there such a thing as high-quality low
voltage outdoor lighting ??? The stuff at the big box stores is SO
cheap,
and the bulb sockets are so crude, always causing problems over time....
*Check out Kichler and also Hadco. I recently installed a bunch of
Kichler lights around some steps. I was very impressed with the
durability. Of course they listed for around $300.00 for each fixture.
At that price I think I'd run 120VAC and forget the low voltage stuff.
Sure. But the good 120 volt units are also in that price range. Why do
people whine and snivel about quality, and then whine and snivel about
the price of the good stuff? If you can't afford the good stuff, do
without, I say.

I like bayonet. I put marine grease on the bayonet bulbs in my
motorcycle. That solves the corrosion issues. I thiink you can use
other greases as well, just that I have marine grease around for the
boat. I think the base of the wedge ones would get too hot to do this.

If it's too hot maybe a synthetic high temp grease would work? As far
as the electrical connection, most any grease will work. The bulb makes
connection and the grease keeps the moisture and oxygen out of it.

On Jul 28, 10:47*am, Tony wrote:
jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jul 27, 11:46 pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,

*Tony wrote:
John Grabowski wrote:
" While we are on this subject, is there such a thing as high-quality low
voltage outdoor lighting ??? *The stuff at the big box stores is *SO
cheap,
and the bulb sockets are so crude, always causing problems over time....
*Check out Kichler and also Hadco. *I recently installed a bunch of
Kichler lights around some steps. *I was very impressed with the
durability. *Of course they listed for around $300.00 for each fixture.
At that price I think I'd run 120VAC and forget the low voltage stuff..
Sure. But the good 120 volt units are also in that price range. Why do
people whine and snivel about quality, and then whine and snivel about
the price of the good stuff? If you can't afford the good stuff, do
without, I say.

I like bayonet. *I put marine grease on the bayonet bulbs in my
motorcycle. *That solves the corrosion issues. *I thiink you can use
other greases as well, just that I have marine grease around for the
boat. *I think the base of the wedge ones would get too hot to do this.

If it's too hot maybe a synthetic high temp grease would work? *As far
as the electrical connection, most any grease will work. *The bulb makes
connection and the grease keeps the moisture and oxygen out of it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yea but some grease is not designed for water exposure. That's why
they have marine grease. I'd expect a pure high temp synthetic to
handle the water. Not sure what the max temp is on those wedge bases
is though. I know the higher watt bulbs are hot if you take one out
while illuminated. I usually stick with the 4 or 7 watt bulbs but
they don't make as much light. I wonder of someone is making an led
replacement? That would not have the heat issues.

On 7/28/2010 12:22 PM spake thus:

On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 11:35:46 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 7/28/2010 6:16 AM jamesgangnc spake thus:

On Jul 28, 9:08 am, Robert Neville wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Thanks. But those fixtures are still pretty expen$ive ($130).

Yes - but they are available for much less - you just have to search. When HD
online stocked them, they were $60 and they had a sale for about 1/2 that.

And I was saying that bayonet-mount bulbs are *better* than those
little wedge-base thingies; at least the bayonet socket holds the
bulb securely under spring tension.

My mistake - these are the wedge type bulb mounts. But in almost 2 years I've
not had a problem.

The wedge mount bulbs do eventually develop connection problems. The
contact area is small. A little emory board or fine sandpaper fixes
them. Unfortunately I think they get too hot at the base to use any
sort of grease on them. I don't know why none of them use bayonet
bulbs.

Well, I guess it's nice that "they" have pretty much standardized
the type of bulb used in those fixtures. It's just too bad they
decided to use an inferior mounting system as the standard.

Makes 'em easy to replace for the homeowner, though.

There is nothing to keep you from installing quality edison base lamp
holders, wired to chapter 3 wiring standards and hooking it up to 12v
with RV bulbs in the sockets.
From what I have seen most low voltage stuff is just crap. Cheap
plastic housings, poor ways of making connections and lamp holders
that fail prematurely.

Well, you're talking (OK, writing) about lamp holders. Thing is, my
clients want light *fixtures*--you know, with shades and all, something
more than a bare nekkid light bulb. Something small enough to go
alongside a set of steps, which rules out most Edison-size bulbs, except
maybe those little stubby spherical ones.

The lights my clients have, those little Malibu surface-mount ones, do
come in a metal version that's much better than the cheapo plastic ones.
But they have the same sockets, take the same wedge-base bulbs.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)