On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 21:24:39 -0400, Tony wrote:

keith wrote:
On Jul 14, 1:58 pm, Tony wrote:
keith wrote:
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&rh=n...Speed%20Contro...
Those are simple "dimmer" style controls. They are *not* for
induction motors.
http://www.kbelectronics.com/kbsearc..._kbwc_115k.htm
It says Shaded Pole motors, which ARE induction motors. Unless you can
show me a shaded pole motor that is not an induction motor? I'd love to
see it!

You won't find a whole house fan that uses a shaded pole motor, but go
ahead and smoke your fan.

I said those dimmers were indeed for shaded pole motors, someone
disagreed, I don't really care who it was. But the fact is that the
speed controls I suggested can be used on shaded pole motors.

I didn't see anyone saying that they weren't for shaded pole motors (or
universal motors, for that matter), only to *not* use them on induction
motors.

Hell, I don't even have a whole house fan, so I don't suppose there is
much chance of me smoking my fan. Unless it was made of hemp. No not
really.

The thread is about controlling the speed of whole house fans, idiot.

On Jul 14, 7:21*pm, "
wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:28:36 -0700 (PDT), RickH





wrote:
On Jul 12, 11:20*pm, "
wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 23:23:02 -0400, Tony wrote:
keith wrote:
On Jul 12, 12:03 pm, RickH wrote:
On Jul 10, 11:23 am, Lee B wrote:

Current house came with a whole house fan (not an attic fan, but the
kind in a hallway ceiling that sucks air into the attic). I was happy to
see that because I really liked the one in my old house. However the one
in the old house had a variable speed dial on it, and the new house's
fan has just one speed - high and loud with a simple off/on switch.
Is the variable speed a function of the fan itself or can that be added
at the switch? I'd definitely be having an electrician do it, but I'm
just trying to figure out if it's even doable, or if I'd end up needing
an entire new fan. And if so, would replacing an existing fan and switch
be difficult (ie cost me an arm and a leg)?
Whole house fans are great. *Yes you can put on a variable speed
controol, but I suggest you over-rate the control amperage you buy by
double. *For example if the fan draws 5 amps then get a 10 amp
control. *Also when turning it on make sure the control passes through
the higher speed, then you lower it. *This is so the motor gets enough
starting current. *I replaced the Off/High/Low switch on mine with a
variable speed. *You only use the High speed motor input wire, just
cap the low speed wire.

That depends on the motor. *If it's a universal motor it'll probably
work fine. *If it's an induction motor, probably not. *Induction
motors tend to be "constant RPM" or with a given load, "constant
power" devices. *As the voltage is reduced they'll want to maintain
RPM, which requires the same power, thus current increases.

If the fan is belt driven it's probably an induction motor.

If you use an AC motor speed controller it will work fine. *It does not
control speed with changes in voltage, it changes speed with changes in
the frequency. *This type of speed control also lets the fan run at
lower speeds without stalling. *The days of the old rheostats are long gone.

They're a tad expensive for a fan. *Have you ever seen one on a whole house
fan?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

$39 is not too bad I dont think, I use the 10 amp one at the bottom of
this page (my fan only draws 5 amps but I wanted the controller to run
real cool so I oversized it): *I got this same model for about $25
elsewhere.

http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/kbwc.htm

That's a "dimmer" style controller. *Do *not* use that for an induction motor.
Induction motors need a VFD type controller, which is far more expensive.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Well It's been working great for 3 years now, and it runs cool, the
heat sink on the 10 amp controller barely gets warm powering a 4 amp
fan.

Here is the wording from their web site (note it says ok for fans):

"The KBWC-110K provides infinitely variable speed motor control for
Shaded Pole, Permanent Split Capacitor and Universal (AC/DC) motors.
The variable speed motor control contains the following features; an
on/off line switch, RFI filter, minimum speed trimpot and a flame-
retardant ABS enclosure. Applications include range hoods, vibrators,
humidifiers, fireplace blowers, fans, laminar flow hoods, heat tunnels
and stirrers."

On Jul 15, 12:15*am, RickH wrote:
On Jul 14, 7:21*pm, "



wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:28:36 -0700 (PDT), RickH

wrote:
On Jul 12, 11:20*pm, "
wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 23:23:02 -0400, Tony wrote:
keith wrote:
On Jul 12, 12:03 pm, RickH wrote:
On Jul 10, 11:23 am, Lee B wrote:

Current house came with a whole house fan (not an attic fan, but the
kind in a hallway ceiling that sucks air into the attic). I was happy to
see that because I really liked the one in my old house. However the one
in the old house had a variable speed dial on it, and the new house's
fan has just one speed - high and loud with a simple off/on switch.
Is the variable speed a function of the fan itself or can that be added
at the switch? I'd definitely be having an electrician do it, but I'm
just trying to figure out if it's even doable, or if I'd end up needing
an entire new fan. And if so, would replacing an existing fan and switch
be difficult (ie cost me an arm and a leg)?
Whole house fans are great. *Yes you can put on a variable speed
controol, but I suggest you over-rate the control amperage you buy by
double. *For example if the fan draws 5 amps then get a 10 amp
control. *Also when turning it on make sure the control passes through
the higher speed, then you lower it. *This is so the motor gets enough
starting current. *I replaced the Off/High/Low switch on mine with a
variable speed. *You only use the High speed motor input wire, just
cap the low speed wire.

That depends on the motor. *If it's a universal motor it'll probably
work fine. *If it's an induction motor, probably not. *Induction
motors tend to be "constant RPM" or with a given load, "constant
power" devices. *As the voltage is reduced they'll want to maintain
RPM, which requires the same power, thus current increases.

If the fan is belt driven it's probably an induction motor.

If you use an AC motor speed controller it will work fine. *It does not
control speed with changes in voltage, it changes speed with changes in
the frequency. *This type of speed control also lets the fan run at
lower speeds without stalling. *The days of the old rheostats are long gone.

They're a tad expensive for a fan. *Have you ever seen one on a whole house
fan?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

$39 is not too bad I dont think, I use the 10 amp one at the bottom of
this page (my fan only draws 5 amps but I wanted the controller to run
real cool so I oversized it): *I got this same model for about $25
elsewhere.

http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/kbwc.htm

That's a "dimmer" style controller. *Do *not* use that for an induction motor.
Induction motors need a VFD type controller, which is far more expensive.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well It's been working great for 3 years now, and it runs cool, the
heat sink on the 10 amp controller barely gets warm powering a 4 amp
fan.

Here is the wording from their web site (note it says ok for fans):

"The KBWC-110K provides infinitely variable speed motor control for
Shaded Pole, Permanent Split Capacitor and Universal (AC/DC) motors.

Do you notice a "for induction motors" in there? Huh?

The variable speed motor control contains the following features; an
on/off line switch, RFI filter, minimum speed trimpot and a flame-
retardant ABS enclosure. Applications include range hoods, vibrators,
humidifiers, fireplace blowers, fans, laminar flow hoods, heat tunnels
and stirrers."

Did you notice "whole house fans" in there? sheesh!

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 21:24:39 -0400, Tony wrote:

keith wrote:
On Jul 14, 1:58 pm, Tony wrote:
keith wrote:
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&rh=n...Speed%20Contro...
Those are simple "dimmer" style controls. They are *not* for
induction motors.
http://www.kbelectronics.com/kbsearc..._kbwc_115k.htm
It says Shaded Pole motors, which ARE induction motors. Unless you can
show me a shaded pole motor that is not an induction motor? I'd love to
see it!
You won't find a whole house fan that uses a shaded pole motor, but go
ahead and smoke your fan.
I said those dimmers were indeed for shaded pole motors, someone
disagreed, I don't really care who it was. But the fact is that the
speed controls I suggested can be used on shaded pole motors.

I didn't see anyone saying that they weren't for shaded pole motors (or
universal motors, for that matter), only to *not* use them on induction
motors.

Oh, OK. Now show me a shaded pole motor that isn't an induction motor.


Hell, I don't even have a whole house fan, so I don't suppose there is
much chance of me smoking my fan. Unless it was made of hemp. No not
really.

The thread is about controlling the speed of whole house fans, idiot.

So I have to own one to reply? Show me a shaded pole motor that isn't
an induction motor.

On Jul 15, 8:49*am, Tony wrote:
wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 21:24:39 -0400, Tony wrote:

keith wrote:
On Jul 14, 1:58 pm, Tony wrote:
keith wrote:
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&rh=n...Speed%20Contro...
Those are simple "dimmer" style controls. *They are *not* for
induction motors.
http://www.kbelectronics.com/kbsearc..._kbwc_115k.htm
It says Shaded Pole motors, which ARE induction motors. *Unless you can
show me a shaded pole motor that is not an induction motor? *I'd love to
see it!
You won't find a whole house fan that uses a shaded pole motor, but go
ahead and smoke your fan.
I said those dimmers were indeed for shaded pole motors, someone
disagreed, I don't really care who it was. *But the fact is that the
speed controls I suggested can be used on shaded pole motors.

I didn't see anyone saying that they weren't for shaded pole motors (or
universal motors, for that matter), only to *not* use them on induction
motors.

Oh, OK. *Now show me a shaded pole motor that isn't an induction motor.

Hell, I don't even have a whole house fan, so I don't suppose there is
much chance of me smoking my fan. *Unless it was made of hemp. *No not
really.

The thread is about controlling the speed of whole house fans, idiot.

So I have to own one to reply? *Show me a shaded pole motor that isn't
an induction motor.

Idiot. Not all induction motors are shaded pole. Shaded pole motors
are *NOT* used for whole house fans.

keith wrote:

Tony wrote:


*Show me a shaded pole motor that isn't
an induction motor.

Idiot. Not all induction motors are shaded pole.

Was it the English language they stopped teaching in school, or just
"logic and syllogisms" class?

Tony wrote:
bud-- wrote:
Tony wrote:
bud-- wrote:
Tony wrote:
Lee B wrote:

Current house came with a whole house fan (not an attic fan, but the
kind in a hallway ceiling that sucks air into the attic). I was
happy to
see that because I really liked the one in my old house. However
the one
in the old house had a variable speed dial on it, and the new house's
fan has just one speed - high and loud with a simple off/on switch.

Is the variable speed a function of the fan itself or can that be
added
at the switch? I'd definitely be having an electrician do it, but I'm
just trying to figure out if it's even doable, or if I'd end up
needing
an entire new fan. And if so, would replacing an existing fan and
switch
be difficult (ie cost me an arm and a leg)?


My fan has a 2 speed motor. The 2 speeds are from separate windings
- each speed has a different number of poles in the motor.

You can easily control a "universal" motor - the type with brushes.
Not likely that is what is in the fan.

Three phase motors can be controlled by changing the frequency. No
possibility there is a 3 phase motor in the fan. The control would
be relatively expensive. I have never seen info, but I suspect the
new variable speed furnace motors are of this basically this type.

You could probably use a variable frequency control for a standard
induction motor, but if the speed falls to where the start switch in
the motor turns on you will probably burn out the motor. And
probably relatively expensive.

If you use a "phase angle" controller, like a light dimmer, you
could control the speed - the motor speed falls farther from the
"rotating field" speed. Has the same problem with start switches. I
believe the torque falls rapidly as the speed drops, but the power
required for a fan, if I remember right, is about the 4th power of
the RPM.



What is the voltage and amperage ratings of the motor? Here are
some speed controllers to choose from.

http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&rh=n...ntrol&p age=1

Briefly looking at the info for one of the speed controllers, it
says it is for shaded pole motors (which are used in clocks and my
bathroom fan) and permanent split capacitor motors, which is not
likely what is being used for the fan. Not obvious from what I saw
that the 10A speed control would work for a typical induction motor,
which is probably what powers the fan. These controls are probably
"phase angle" controllers - as above.

Outside of a 2 (or more speed) induction motor, I don't know how you
reliably control the speed of an induction motor that probably
powers the fan. How does the control work? How do you avoid problems
with the start switch?

Uh... hello? A shaded pole motor IS an induction motor. Motor speed
controllers will vary their speed by varying the frequency. Try google.

http://www.google.com/search?num=50&...=&oq=&gs_rfai=


You will not find a shaded pole motor on a fan of any size - like a
"whole house" fan that makes too much noise.

The motor controller I commented on (from your previous post) is
almost certainly a "phase angle" control (like a light dimmer). It
does not change the frequency.


What is it like to guess instead of going by the facts?

Guessing?

Facts: a variable frequency drive converts the AC line to DC and then
inverts that to variable frequency AC. There is no way the enclosures
have enough space for the filter capacitors that would be required. Also
way to cheap. And all VFDs I have seen are for 3 phase motors.

They are "phase angle" controls.

Probably
everything goes your way, if you don't read the specs.

I read the specs - "shaded pole" or "PSC motors". Neither of these
motors has a start switch. Find me a "whole house" fan that uses either.

Someone else said that shaded pole motors are about 1/4 HP max. In a
fast look at Grainger I only saw 1/5 HP max. Find a "whole house" fan
that only uses a 1/5 HP motor.


The controller I looked at was also stated to work with a permanent
split capacitor motor. If I remember right, they are a 2 winding motor
with a capacitor in series with one of the windings. There is no start
cap and no start switch. It is basically a 2-phase motor. (I don't
remember ever seeing one.)

Neither of the motors that the controller said it was good for has a
start switch. A "whole house" fan will almost certainly have an
induction motor with a start switch. Using a dimmer-type control, as
above, can easily burn out the motor. It is a misapplication according
to the limited information provided with the control.

There is a lot more info out there. I can't do all the work for you,
look up KB Electronics and read the specs. And if you look at the
picture, you will see that from the "off" position,the first "on"
position is "high". Yes it will start the motor.

If you set the speed too low will the motor start switch close? If it
does the motor is likely toast. The motors in the manufacturer's spec do
not have a start switch. There is a reason.

Where in the specs does it say the control is good for an induction
motor with a start switch that would be used on a "whole house" fan?

Seems to be a lot of people who disagree with you.

--
bud--

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 09:40:14 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:


keith wrote:

Tony wrote:


*Show me a shaded pole motor that isn't
an induction motor.

Idiot. Not all induction motors are shaded pole.

Was it the English language they stopped teaching in school, or just
"logic and syllogisms" class?

Another clueless dolt.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 12:18:53 -0500, bud-- wrote:

Tony wrote:
bud-- wrote:
Tony wrote:
bud-- wrote:
Tony wrote:
Lee B wrote:

Current house came with a whole house fan (not an attic fan, but the
kind in a hallway ceiling that sucks air into the attic). I was
happy to
see that because I really liked the one in my old house. However
the one
in the old house had a variable speed dial on it, and the new house's
fan has just one speed - high and loud with a simple off/on switch.

Is the variable speed a function of the fan itself or can that be
added
at the switch? I'd definitely be having an electrician do it, but I'm
just trying to figure out if it's even doable, or if I'd end up
needing
an entire new fan. And if so, would replacing an existing fan and
switch
be difficult (ie cost me an arm and a leg)?


My fan has a 2 speed motor. The 2 speeds are from separate windings
- each speed has a different number of poles in the motor.

You can easily control a "universal" motor - the type with brushes.
Not likely that is what is in the fan.

Three phase motors can be controlled by changing the frequency. No
possibility there is a 3 phase motor in the fan. The control would
be relatively expensive. I have never seen info, but I suspect the
new variable speed furnace motors are of this basically this type.

You could probably use a variable frequency control for a standard
induction motor, but if the speed falls to where the start switch in
the motor turns on you will probably burn out the motor. And
probably relatively expensive.

If you use a "phase angle" controller, like a light dimmer, you
could control the speed - the motor speed falls farther from the
"rotating field" speed. Has the same problem with start switches. I
believe the torque falls rapidly as the speed drops, but the power
required for a fan, if I remember right, is about the 4th power of
the RPM.



What is the voltage and amperage ratings of the motor? Here are
some speed controllers to choose from.

http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&rh=n...ntrol&p age=1

Briefly looking at the info for one of the speed controllers, it
says it is for shaded pole motors (which are used in clocks and my
bathroom fan) and permanent split capacitor motors, which is not
likely what is being used for the fan. Not obvious from what I saw
that the 10A speed control would work for a typical induction motor,
which is probably what powers the fan. These controls are probably
"phase angle" controllers - as above.

Outside of a 2 (or more speed) induction motor, I don't know how you
reliably control the speed of an induction motor that probably
powers the fan. How does the control work? How do you avoid problems
with the start switch?

Uh... hello? A shaded pole motor IS an induction motor. Motor speed
controllers will vary their speed by varying the frequency. Try google.

http://www.google.com/search?num=50&...=&oq=&gs_rfai=


You will not find a shaded pole motor on a fan of any size - like a
"whole house" fan that makes too much noise.

The motor controller I commented on (from your previous post) is
almost certainly a "phase angle" control (like a light dimmer). It
does not change the frequency.


What is it like to guess instead of going by the facts?

Guessing?

Facts: a variable frequency drive converts the AC line to DC and then
inverts that to variable frequency AC. There is no way the enclosures
have enough space for the filter capacitors that would be required. Also
way to cheap. And all VFDs I have seen are for 3 phase motors.

They are "phase angle" controls.

Probably
everything goes your way, if you don't read the specs.

I read the specs - "shaded pole" or "PSC motors". Neither of these
motors has a start switch. Find me a "whole house" fan that uses either.

Someone else said that shaded pole motors are about 1/4 HP max. In a
fast look at Grainger I only saw 1/5 HP max. Find a "whole house" fan
that only uses a 1/5 HP motor.

The biggest I found was 1/6HP, so said 1/4HP to make some wiggle room. The
plan worked. ;-)

The controller I looked at was also stated to work with a permanent
split capacitor motor. If I remember right, they are a 2 winding motor
with a capacitor in series with one of the windings. There is no start
cap and no start switch. It is basically a 2-phase motor. (I don't
remember ever seeing one.)

Neither of the motors that the controller said it was good for has a
start switch. A "whole house" fan will almost certainly have an
induction motor with a start switch. Using a dimmer-type control, as
above, can easily burn out the motor. It is a misapplication according
to the limited information provided with the control.

There is a lot more info out there. I can't do all the work for you,
look up KB Electronics and read the specs. And if you look at the
picture, you will see that from the "off" position,the first "on"
position is "high". Yes it will start the motor.

If you set the speed too low will the motor start switch close? If it
does the motor is likely toast. The motors in the manufacturer's spec do
not have a start switch. There is a reason.

Where in the specs does it say the control is good for an induction
motor with a start switch that would be used on a "whole house" fan?

Seems to be a lot of people who disagree with you.

Only the ones who have a clue about basic electricity.

bud-- wrote:
Tony wrote:
bud-- wrote:
Tony wrote:
bud-- wrote:
Tony wrote:
Lee B wrote:

Current house came with a whole house fan (not an attic fan, but the
kind in a hallway ceiling that sucks air into the attic). I was
happy to
see that because I really liked the one in my old house. However
the one
in the old house had a variable speed dial on it, and the new
house's
fan has just one speed - high and loud with a simple off/on switch.

Is the variable speed a function of the fan itself or can that be
added
at the switch? I'd definitely be having an electrician do it, but
I'm
just trying to figure out if it's even doable, or if I'd end up
needing
an entire new fan. And if so, would replacing an existing fan and
switch
be difficult (ie cost me an arm and a leg)?


My fan has a 2 speed motor. The 2 speeds are from separate windings
- each speed has a different number of poles in the motor.

You can easily control a "universal" motor - the type with brushes.
Not likely that is what is in the fan.

Three phase motors can be controlled by changing the frequency. No
possibility there is a 3 phase motor in the fan. The control would
be relatively expensive. I have never seen info, but I suspect the
new variable speed furnace motors are of this basically this type.

You could probably use a variable frequency control for a standard
induction motor, but if the speed falls to where the start switch
in the motor turns on you will probably burn out the motor. And
probably relatively expensive.

If you use a "phase angle" controller, like a light dimmer, you
could control the speed - the motor speed falls farther from the
"rotating field" speed. Has the same problem with start switches. I
believe the torque falls rapidly as the speed drops, but the power
required for a fan, if I remember right, is about the 4th power of
the RPM.



What is the voltage and amperage ratings of the motor? Here are
some speed controllers to choose from.

http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&rh=n...ntrol&p age=1


Briefly looking at the info for one of the speed controllers, it
says it is for shaded pole motors (which are used in clocks and my
bathroom fan) and permanent split capacitor motors, which is not
likely what is being used for the fan. Not obvious from what I saw
that the 10A speed control would work for a typical induction
motor, which is probably what powers the fan. These controls are
probably "phase angle" controllers - as above.

Outside of a 2 (or more speed) induction motor, I don't know how
you reliably control the speed of an induction motor that probably
powers the fan. How does the control work? How do you avoid
problems with the start switch?

Uh... hello? A shaded pole motor IS an induction motor. Motor
speed controllers will vary their speed by varying the frequency.
Try google.

http://www.google.com/search?num=50&...=&oq=&gs_rfai=


You will not find a shaded pole motor on a fan of any size - like a
"whole house" fan that makes too much noise.

The motor controller I commented on (from your previous post) is
almost certainly a "phase angle" control (like a light dimmer). It
does not change the frequency.


What is it like to guess instead of going by the facts?

Guessing?

Facts: a variable frequency drive converts the AC line to DC and then
inverts that to variable frequency AC. There is no way the enclosures
have enough space for the filter capacitors that would be required. Also
way to cheap. And all VFDs I have seen are for 3 phase motors.

They are "phase angle" controls.

Probably everything goes your way, if you don't read the specs.

I read the specs - "shaded pole" or "PSC motors". Neither of these
motors has a start switch. Find me a "whole house" fan that uses either.

Someone else said that shaded pole motors are about 1/4 HP max. In a
fast look at Grainger I only saw 1/5 HP max. Find a "whole house" fan
that only uses a 1/5 HP motor.


The controller I looked at was also stated to work with a permanent
split capacitor motor. If I remember right, they are a 2 winding
motor with a capacitor in series with one of the windings. There is
no start cap and no start switch. It is basically a 2-phase motor. (I
don't remember ever seeing one.)

Neither of the motors that the controller said it was good for has a
start switch. A "whole house" fan will almost certainly have an
induction motor with a start switch. Using a dimmer-type control, as
above, can easily burn out the motor. It is a misapplication
according to the limited information provided with the control.

There is a lot more info out there. I can't do all the work for you,
look up KB Electronics and read the specs. And if you look at the
picture, you will see that from the "off" position,the first "on"
position is "high". Yes it will start the motor.

If you set the speed too low will the motor start switch close? If it
does the motor is likely toast. The motors in the manufacturer's spec do
not have a start switch. There is a reason.

Where in the specs does it say the control is good for an induction
motor with a start switch that would be used on a "whole house" fan?

Seems to be a lot of people who disagree with you.

I was replying to those who said the speed controls I pointed to would
not work on an induction motor. The specs says it does. That's all. I
didn't argue that they would work for a whole house fan. My grinder is
1/2hp and it has an induction motor.

Here is a 2HP induction motor. There are many more even larger.
http://www.biscuitplantspares.com/in...oducts _id=32

http://www.google.com/search?q=1%2F2...ient=firefox-a

Again, the motor speed controllers I posted a link to do work on
induction motors. That is a fact. That's all I'm saying. What did I
post that is not true?

keith wrote:
On Jul 15, 8:49 am, Tony wrote:
wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 21:24:39 -0400, Tony wrote:
keith wrote:
On Jul 14, 1:58 pm, Tony wrote:
keith wrote:
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&rh=n...Speed%20Contro...
Those are simple "dimmer" style controls. They are *not* for
induction motors.
http://www.kbelectronics.com/kbsearc..._kbwc_115k.htm
It says Shaded Pole motors, which ARE induction motors. Unless you can
show me a shaded pole motor that is not an induction motor? I'd love to
see it!
You won't find a whole house fan that uses a shaded pole motor, but go
ahead and smoke your fan.
I said those dimmers were indeed for shaded pole motors, someone
disagreed, I don't really care who it was. But the fact is that the
speed controls I suggested can be used on shaded pole motors.
I didn't see anyone saying that they weren't for shaded pole motors (or
universal motors, for that matter), only to *not* use them on induction
motors.
Oh, OK. Now show me a shaded pole motor that isn't an induction motor.

Hell, I don't even have a whole house fan, so I don't suppose there is
much chance of me smoking my fan. Unless it was made of hemp. No not
really.
The thread is about controlling the speed of whole house fans, idiot.
So I have to own one to reply? Show me a shaded pole motor that isn't
an induction motor.

Idiot. Not all induction motors are shaded pole. Shaded pole motors
are *NOT* used for whole house fans.

No ****. I never said they were, it was your buddies who keep throwing
"shaded pole" into the conversation. I just replied that a shaded pole
motor is indeed an induction motor. Go back and see who first mentioned
shaded pole motors. It wasn't me.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 23:28:44 -0400, Tony wrote:

keith wrote:
On Jul 15, 8:49 am, Tony wrote:
wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 21:24:39 -0400, Tony wrote:
keith wrote:
On Jul 14, 1:58 pm, Tony wrote:
keith wrote:
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&rh=n...Speed%20Contro...
Those are simple "dimmer" style controls. They are *not* for
induction motors.
http://www.kbelectronics.com/kbsearc..._kbwc_115k.htm
It says Shaded Pole motors, which ARE induction motors. Unless you can
show me a shaded pole motor that is not an induction motor? I'd love to
see it!
You won't find a whole house fan that uses a shaded pole motor, but go
ahead and smoke your fan.
I said those dimmers were indeed for shaded pole motors, someone
disagreed, I don't really care who it was. But the fact is that the
speed controls I suggested can be used on shaded pole motors.
I didn't see anyone saying that they weren't for shaded pole motors (or
universal motors, for that matter), only to *not* use them on induction
motors.
Oh, OK. Now show me a shaded pole motor that isn't an induction motor.

Hell, I don't even have a whole house fan, so I don't suppose there is
much chance of me smoking my fan. Unless it was made of hemp. No not
really.
The thread is about controlling the speed of whole house fans, idiot.
So I have to own one to reply? Show me a shaded pole motor that isn't
an induction motor.

Idiot. Not all induction motors are shaded pole. Shaded pole motors
are *NOT* used for whole house fans.

No ****. I never said they were, it was your buddies who keep throwing
"shaded pole" into the conversation. I just replied that a shaded pole
motor is indeed an induction motor. Go back and see who first mentioned
shaded pole motors. It wasn't me.

You kept bringing them up, apparently to show how "bright" you are. Didn't
work.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 23:21:05 -0400, Tony wrote:

bud-- wrote:
Tony wrote:
bud-- wrote:
Tony wrote:
bud-- wrote:
Tony wrote:
Lee B wrote:

Current house came with a whole house fan (not an attic fan, but the
kind in a hallway ceiling that sucks air into the attic). I was
happy to
see that because I really liked the one in my old house. However
the one
in the old house had a variable speed dial on it, and the new
house's
fan has just one speed - high and loud with a simple off/on switch.

Is the variable speed a function of the fan itself or can that be
added
at the switch? I'd definitely be having an electrician do it, but
I'm
just trying to figure out if it's even doable, or if I'd end up
needing
an entire new fan. And if so, would replacing an existing fan and
switch
be difficult (ie cost me an arm and a leg)?


My fan has a 2 speed motor. The 2 speeds are from separate windings
- each speed has a different number of poles in the motor.

You can easily control a "universal" motor - the type with brushes.
Not likely that is what is in the fan.

Three phase motors can be controlled by changing the frequency. No
possibility there is a 3 phase motor in the fan. The control would
be relatively expensive. I have never seen info, but I suspect the
new variable speed furnace motors are of this basically this type.

You could probably use a variable frequency control for a standard
induction motor, but if the speed falls to where the start switch
in the motor turns on you will probably burn out the motor. And
probably relatively expensive.

If you use a "phase angle" controller, like a light dimmer, you
could control the speed - the motor speed falls farther from the
"rotating field" speed. Has the same problem with start switches. I
believe the torque falls rapidly as the speed drops, but the power
required for a fan, if I remember right, is about the 4th power of
the RPM.



What is the voltage and amperage ratings of the motor? Here are
some speed controllers to choose from.

http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&rh=n...ntrol&p age=1


Briefly looking at the info for one of the speed controllers, it
says it is for shaded pole motors (which are used in clocks and my
bathroom fan) and permanent split capacitor motors, which is not
likely what is being used for the fan. Not obvious from what I saw
that the 10A speed control would work for a typical induction
motor, which is probably what powers the fan. These controls are
probably "phase angle" controllers - as above.

Outside of a 2 (or more speed) induction motor, I don't know how
you reliably control the speed of an induction motor that probably
powers the fan. How does the control work? How do you avoid
problems with the start switch?

Uh... hello? A shaded pole motor IS an induction motor. Motor
speed controllers will vary their speed by varying the frequency.
Try google.

http://www.google.com/search?num=50&...=&oq=&gs_rfai=


You will not find a shaded pole motor on a fan of any size - like a
"whole house" fan that makes too much noise.

The motor controller I commented on (from your previous post) is
almost certainly a "phase angle" control (like a light dimmer). It
does not change the frequency.


What is it like to guess instead of going by the facts?

Guessing?

Facts: a variable frequency drive converts the AC line to DC and then
inverts that to variable frequency AC. There is no way the enclosures
have enough space for the filter capacitors that would be required. Also
way to cheap. And all VFDs I have seen are for 3 phase motors.

They are "phase angle" controls.

Probably everything goes your way, if you don't read the specs.

I read the specs - "shaded pole" or "PSC motors". Neither of these
motors has a start switch. Find me a "whole house" fan that uses either.

Someone else said that shaded pole motors are about 1/4 HP max. In a
fast look at Grainger I only saw 1/5 HP max. Find a "whole house" fan
that only uses a 1/5 HP motor.


The controller I looked at was also stated to work with a permanent
split capacitor motor. If I remember right, they are a 2 winding
motor with a capacitor in series with one of the windings. There is
no start cap and no start switch. It is basically a 2-phase motor. (I
don't remember ever seeing one.)

Neither of the motors that the controller said it was good for has a
start switch. A "whole house" fan will almost certainly have an
induction motor with a start switch. Using a dimmer-type control, as
above, can easily burn out the motor. It is a misapplication
according to the limited information provided with the control.

There is a lot more info out there. I can't do all the work for you,
look up KB Electronics and read the specs. And if you look at the
picture, you will see that from the "off" position,the first "on"
position is "high". Yes it will start the motor.

If you set the speed too low will the motor start switch close? If it
does the motor is likely toast. The motors in the manufacturer's spec do
not have a start switch. There is a reason.

Where in the specs does it say the control is good for an induction
motor with a start switch that would be used on a "whole house" fan?

Seems to be a lot of people who disagree with you.

I was replying to those who said the speed controls I pointed to would
not work on an induction motor. The specs says it does. That's all. I
didn't argue that they would work for a whole house fan. My grinder is
1/2hp and it has an induction motor.

Moron, the thread is *about* whole house fans. Induction motor powered whole
house fans *CANNOT* be "dimmed".

Here is a 2HP induction motor. There are many more even larger.
http://www.biscuitplantspares.com/in...oducts _id=32

http://www.google.com/search?q=1%2F2...ient=firefox-a

Again, the motor speed controllers I posted a link to do work on
induction motors. That is a fact. That's all I'm saying. What did I
post that is not true?

What an idiot.

Look at the OP date!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

wrote:
Look at the OP date!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I never tried variable, but I have inserted a green plug. It reduces speed
some. Enough to keep calmer. They can be very loud. Some older belt fans
were pretty quiet.

Greg

On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 09:33:33 -0000 (UTC), gregz
wrote:

wrote:
Look at the OP date!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I never tried variable, but I have inserted a green plug. It reduces speed
some. Enough to keep calmer. They can be very loud. Some older belt fans
were pretty quiet.

Greg

The easiest way is to buy a multi speed motor. Mine are 2 speed
(1/4-1/8 hp) They are 24" units 22" blade and on 1/4 hp they move a
lot of air. On 1/8 they are very quiet.
You can also find 3 speed or even 4 speed motors but be sure they are
matched to the blade in high speed. It is like propping a boat. If you
have too little pitch you are losing performance and to high a pitch
will lug the motor and burn it up.

replying to JimT, FanOfWholeHouseFans wrote:
I beg to differ with "better than nothing." . Living in a dry climate where
the nights cool down very nicely, a whole house fan is the way to go for
cooling cheaply and sustainably in an overtaxed climate, and it works well.
Shut curtains and Windows all day to keep cool air in and hot air out. Then,
once the evening outside temp drops near or below the inside temp, we open
every window and switch on the whole house fan, which cools down the house
lickety split with fresh air. BUT, these things are loud and we could not
sleep with it on or watch tv or talK on the phone. So I too keep looking for a
variable speed fan that we can run quietly on low all night and when we need
to hear. Would someone please manufacture these. There are lots of us out here
who hate AC and want to do things more sustainably and who prefer exchanging
stale house sir with fresh air, and who live in places where cool night air in
summer is the best way of truly conditioning the ai!

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ed-452575-.htm

On 07/15/2017 10:44 AM, FanOfWholeHouseFans wrote:
replying to JimT, FanOfWholeHouseFans wrote:
I beg to differ with "better than nothing." . Living in a dry climate
where
the nights cool down very nicely, a whole house fan is the way to go for
cooling cheaply and sustainably in an overtaxed climate, and it works
well.
Shut curtains and Windows all day to keep cool air in and hot air out.
Then,
once the evening outside temp drops near or below the inside temp, we
open
every window and switch on the whole house fan, which cools down the
house
lickety split with fresh air. BUT, these things are loud and we could not
sleep with it on or watch tv or talK on the phone. So I too keep
looking for a
variable speed fan that we can run quietly on low all night and when
we need
to hear. Would someone please manufacture these. There are lots of us
out here
who hate AC and want to do things more sustainably and who prefer
exchanging
stale house sir with fresh air, and who live in places where cool
night air in
summer is the best way of truly conditioning the ai!


The "ideal state" is generous venting at the peak and soffits of your
roof. If the attic temp goes 5F above outdoor ambient, you need to add
more attic venting.

A hotter-than-ambient attic just needlessly raises your electric bill.

On 7/15/2017 10:44 AM, FanOfWholeHouseFans wrote:
replying to JimT, FanOfWholeHouseFans wrote:
I beg to differ with "better than nothing." . Living in a dry climate where
the nights cool down very nicely, a whole house fan is the way to go for
cooling cheaply and sustainably in an overtaxed climate, and it works well.
Shut curtains and Windows all day to keep cool air in and hot air out.
Then,
once the evening outside temp drops near or below the inside temp, we open
every window and switch on the whole house fan, which cools down the house
lickety split with fresh air. BUT, these things are loud and we could not
sleep with it on or watch tv or talK on the phone. So I too keep looking
for a
variable speed fan that we can run quietly on low all night and when we
need
to hear. Would someone please manufacture these. There are lots of us
out here
who hate AC and want to do things more sustainably and who prefer
exchanging
stale house sir with fresh air, and who live in places where cool night
air in
summer is the best way of truly conditioning the ai!



Seven years later you are still looking for a variable speed switch? I
put mine in 30 years ago. Works well.

On high, the fan sucks so much air it sucked my pet gerbil up and tossed
them around and finally spit them out the soffits.

On Saturday, July 15, 2017 at 10:44:08 AM UTC-4, FanOfWholeHouseFans wrote:
replying to JimT, FanOfWholeHouseFans wrote:
I beg to differ with "better than nothing." . Living in a dry climate where
the nights cool down very nicely, a whole house fan is the way to go for
cooling cheaply and sustainably in an overtaxed climate, and it works well.
Shut curtains and Windows all day to keep cool air in and hot air out. Then,
once the evening outside temp drops near or below the inside temp, we open
every window and switch on the whole house fan, which cools down the house
lickety split with fresh air. BUT, these things are loud and we could not
sleep with it on or watch tv or talK on the phone. So I too keep looking for a
variable speed fan that we can run quietly on low all night and when we need
to hear. Would someone please manufacture these. There are lots of us out here
who hate AC and want to do things more sustainably and who prefer exchanging
stale house sir with fresh air, and who live in places where cool night air in
summer is the best way of truly conditioning the ai!

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ed-452575-.htm

Sure sounds like "better than nothing" fits.

On Saturday, July 15, 2017 at 11:14:33 AM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
On 07/15/2017 10:44 AM, FanOfWholeHouseFans wrote:
replying to JimT, FanOfWholeHouseFans wrote:
I beg to differ with "better than nothing." . Living in a dry climate
where
the nights cool down very nicely, a whole house fan is the way to go for
cooling cheaply and sustainably in an overtaxed climate, and it works
well.
Shut curtains and Windows all day to keep cool air in and hot air out.
Then,
once the evening outside temp drops near or below the inside temp, we
open
every window and switch on the whole house fan, which cools down the
house
lickety split with fresh air. BUT, these things are loud and we could not
sleep with it on or watch tv or talK on the phone. So I too keep
looking for a
variable speed fan that we can run quietly on low all night and when
we need
to hear. Would someone please manufacture these. There are lots of us
out here
who hate AC and want to do things more sustainably and who prefer
exchanging
stale house sir with fresh air, and who live in places where cool
night air in
summer is the best way of truly conditioning the ai!


The "ideal state" is generous venting at the peak and soffits of your
roof. If the attic temp goes 5F above outdoor ambient, you need to add
more attic venting.

A hotter-than-ambient attic just needlessly raises your electric bill.

I guess you haven't seen many attics. Where did that 5F limit come from?
I have yet to see any attic where the attic temp in summer is just 5F
above ambient outside temp. Typical is more than several times that. Which is
what insulation is for. 5F is nuts and is never going to happen with
passive, even with fans it would require moving a lot of air when it's
85F+ and sunny.

On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 14:44:03 GMT, FanOfWholeHouseFans
m wrote:

replying to JimT, FanOfWholeHouseFans wrote:
I beg to differ with "better than nothing." . Living in a dry climate where
the nights cool down very nicely, a whole house fan is the way to go for
cooling cheaply and sustainably in an overtaxed climate, and it works well.
Shut curtains and Windows all day to keep cool air in and hot air out. Then,
once the evening outside temp drops near or below the inside temp, we open
every window and switch on the whole house fan, which cools down the house
lickety split with fresh air. BUT, these things are loud and we could not
sleep with it on or watch tv or talK on the phone. So I too keep looking for a
variable speed fan that we can run quietly on low all night and when we need
to hear. Would someone please manufacture these. There are lots of us out here
who hate AC and want to do things more sustainably and who prefer exchanging
stale house sir with fresh air, and who live in places where cool night air in
summer is the best way of truly conditioning the ai!

We are in SW Florida and still benefit from whole house fans for about
half the year. I agree with Trader, even with two 22" fans running on
high, I never get the 1600 sq/ft attic below that mythical "5 degrees
above ambient" if the sun is shining.
As for variable speed, the best way is with multi speed motors.
You size the blade to the motor running on high and it will work OK at
the lower speeds. If the blade is not properly sized, you will burn up
the motor (too much pitch) or simply waste energy with it not moving
enough air (too little pitch).
The Grainger catalog has charts that will help you with this
selection.
One of my fans is 2 speed, one is 4 speed. (probably overkill since we
still only use two).

On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 11:14:24 -0400, Jack wrote:

On 07/15/2017 10:44 AM, FanOfWholeHouseFans wrote:
replying to JimT, FanOfWholeHouseFans wrote:
I beg to differ with "better than nothing." . Living in a dry climate
where
the nights cool down very nicely, a whole house fan is the way to go for
cooling cheaply and sustainably in an overtaxed climate, and it works
well.
Shut curtains and Windows all day to keep cool air in and hot air out.
Then,
once the evening outside temp drops near or below the inside temp, we
open
every window and switch on the whole house fan, which cools down the
house
lickety split with fresh air. BUT, these things are loud and we could not
sleep with it on or watch tv or talK on the phone. So I too keep
looking for a
variable speed fan that we can run quietly on low all night and when
we need
to hear. Would someone please manufacture these. There are lots of us
out here
who hate AC and want to do things more sustainably and who prefer
exchanging
stale house sir with fresh air, and who live in places where cool
night air in
summer is the best way of truly conditioning the ai!


The "ideal state" is generous venting at the peak and soffits of your
roof. If the attic temp goes 5F above outdoor ambient, you need to add
more attic venting.

A hotter-than-ambient attic just needlessly raises your electric bill.
There are many places where even with "excessive" ventiung the attic
will be WAY over 5 degrees over ambient. If I open the 62 foot gable
end door in the attic of my 15X15 foot shed and open the 6'6"x32" door
in the bottom, with a 3.3X3.3 foot opening between the main shed and
the attic, on an eveage summer day it will be over 10C hotter in the
attic, unless the breeze is coming from the south, blowing in the
attic door. The toof has a full length ridge vent and about 90 square
feet of fully open vented soffit