Robert Olin wrote:
I'm building a well house/shop. It is about 150' from where the main house
will be.
It will have a subpanel that will be fed from the main panel at the house.
I will be running 6/3 with ground from the house to the well house.
I have an electrician friend who said the inspector made them install a main
breaker in a subpanel they just did and made them put a hold down screw in
it.

But it is my understanding that you don't need a main breaker if it has 6 or
less breakers in the panel. Mine will have just 4.

Thanks,
Bob


A separate building requires a disconnect at that building (225.31).
The required disconnect can be up to 6 breakers in the panel (225.33-A).
I agree with you.

When a breaker is backfed it must be "secured in place" (408.36-D).
Otherwise the breaker could become unplugged with exposed hot breaker
bus connections. This probably must be supplied by the manufacturer. For
SquareD breakers there is a block that is screwed to the mounting rail.
Your friend used a hold down screw.

--
bud--

bud-- wrote:

A separate building requires a disconnect at that building (225.31).
The required disconnect can be up to 6 breakers in the panel (225.33-A).
I agree with you.


Would you believe that when running a 200 amp feed from the transformer
to my new garage it goes directly from the transformer to the inside
panel main breaker. There is no disconnect, not even a meter to pull
since my usage is measured with a "current meter" on the pole with the
transformer. (I could pull the meter and still have power) My brother,
a licensed electrician in FL couldn't believe it. I even asked the pre
work inspector if I needed a disconnect and he asked where the panel
will be. I showed him it would be directly on the other side of the
block wall. He said if it's only going through the wall, that I don't
have to worry about a disconnect. The main breaker is right there 1'
away. My brother wired it for me, but he said next time he visits
(could be years) that he is going to add an outside disconnect.

Here in the backwoods of TN. I'm certain the inspector is on 2008?
(newest?) code, but he just forgot what he was doing.

In news typed:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 16:45:18 -0400, Tony
wrote:

bud-- wrote:

A separate building requires a disconnect at that
building (225.31). The required disconnect can be up to 6
breakers in the panel (225.33-A). I agree with you.


Would you believe that when running a 200 amp feed from
the transformer to my new garage it goes directly from the
transformer to the inside panel main breaker. There is no
disconnect, not even a meter to pull since my usage is
measured with a "current meter" on the pole with the
transformer. (I could pull the meter and still have
power) My brother, a licensed electrician in FL couldn't
believe it. I even asked the pre work inspector if I
needed a disconnect and he asked where the panel will be.
I showed him it would be directly on the other side of the
block wall. He said if it's only going through the wall,
that I don't have to worry about a disconnect. The main
breaker is right there 1' away. My brother wired it for
me, but he said next time he visits (could be years) that
he is going to add an outside disconnect.

Here in the backwoods of TN. I'm certain the inspector is
on 2008? (newest?) code, but he just forgot what he was
doing.


The meter is not considered a disconnect and there is no NEC
requirement for an outside disconnect.

It says
"The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a
readily accessible location either outside of a building or
structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the
service conductors." (NEC 2008)
They do not specify how far inside the "nearest point" is.
Some AHJs say back to back, other go as far as 5-6 feet.

Your local zoning office is going to know what parts of the
NEC and what its own additions to those might be, so they are
the place to check with, not here. If you're talking to an
actual inspector, one that might actually inspect your own
wiring, then he's going to be telling you what's necessary
whether it's only the NEC or whether they've added their own
requirements on top of that. e.g. like, requiring an outside
quick disconnect vs what the NEC says. Remember, the NEC is
only minimum requirements, not necessarily ALL of the
requirements.

Twayne wrote:
In news typed:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 16:45:18 -0400, Tony
wrote:

bud-- wrote:
A separate building requires a disconnect at that
building (225.31). The required disconnect can be up to 6
breakers in the panel (225.33-A). I agree with you.

Would you believe that when running a 200 amp feed from
the transformer to my new garage it goes directly from the
transformer to the inside panel main breaker. There is no
disconnect, not even a meter to pull since my usage is
measured with a "current meter" on the pole with the
transformer. (I could pull the meter and still have
power) My brother, a licensed electrician in FL couldn't
believe it. I even asked the pre work inspector if I
needed a disconnect and he asked where the panel will be.
I showed him it would be directly on the other side of the
block wall. He said if it's only going through the wall,
that I don't have to worry about a disconnect. The main
breaker is right there 1' away. My brother wired it for
me, but he said next time he visits (could be years) that
he is going to add an outside disconnect.

Here in the backwoods of TN. I'm certain the inspector is
on 2008? (newest?) code, but he just forgot what he was
doing.

The meter is not considered a disconnect and there is no NEC
requirement for an outside disconnect.

It says
"The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a
readily accessible location either outside of a building or
structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the
service conductors." (NEC 2008)
They do not specify how far inside the "nearest point" is.
Some AHJs say back to back, other go as far as 5-6 feet.

Your local zoning office is going to know what parts of the
NEC and what its own additions to those might be, so they are
the place to check with, not here. If you're talking to an
actual inspector, one that might actually inspect your own
wiring, then he's going to be telling you what's necessary
whether it's only the NEC or whether they've added their own
requirements on top of that. e.g. like, requiring an outside
quick disconnect vs what the NEC says. Remember, the NEC is
only minimum requirements, not necessarily ALL of the
requirements.


I suppose where my brother operates his electrical business they have a
common local code for an outside disconnect and he is just used to doing
it so mine looked odd to him.

Tony wrote:
Twayne wrote:
In news typed:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 16:45:18 -0400, Tony
wrote:

bud-- wrote:
A separate building requires a disconnect at that
building (225.31). The required disconnect can be up to 6
breakers in the panel (225.33-A). I agree with you.

Would you believe that when running a 200 amp feed from
the transformer to my new garage it goes directly from the
transformer to the inside panel main breaker. There is no
disconnect, not even a meter to pull since my usage is
measured with a "current meter" on the pole with the
transformer. (I could pull the meter and still have
power) My brother, a licensed electrician in FL couldn't
believe it. I even asked the pre work inspector if I
needed a disconnect and he asked where the panel will be.
I showed him it would be directly on the other side of the
block wall. He said if it's only going through the wall,
that I don't have to worry about a disconnect. The main
breaker is right there 1' away. My brother wired it for
me, but he said next time he visits (could be years) that
he is going to add an outside disconnect.

Here in the backwoods of TN. I'm certain the inspector is
on 2008? (newest?) code, but he just forgot what he was
doing.

The meter is not considered a disconnect and there is no NEC
requirement for an outside disconnect.

It says
"The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a
readily accessible location either outside of a building or
structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the
service conductors." (NEC 2008)
They do not specify how far inside the "nearest point" is.
Some AHJs say back to back, other go as far as 5-6 feet.

Your local zoning office is going to know what parts of the NEC and
what its own additions to those might be, so they are the place to
check with, not here. If you're talking to an actual inspector, one
that might actually inspect your own wiring, then he's going to be
telling you what's necessary whether it's only the NEC or whether
they've added their own requirements on top of that. e.g. like,
requiring an outside quick disconnect vs what the NEC says. Remember,
the NEC is only minimum requirements, not necessarily ALL of the
requirements.

I suppose where my brother operates his electrical business they have a
common local code for an outside disconnect and he is just used to doing
it so mine looked odd to him.

A zoning office for electrical code questions?

It is likely your installation meets the codes. Your NEC required
service disconnect is in the panel in the garage.

It would be uncommon here to not have a meter installed on the garage,
but the utility can meter at their end. Here anything over 400A would
use "current transformers". Removing the meter on a 3000A service would
do nothing.

--
bud--

bud-- wrote:
Tony wrote:
Twayne wrote:
In news typed:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 16:45:18 -0400, Tony
wrote:

bud-- wrote:
A separate building requires a disconnect at that
building (225.31). The required disconnect can be up to 6
breakers in the panel (225.33-A). I agree with you.

Would you believe that when running a 200 amp feed from
the transformer to my new garage it goes directly from the
transformer to the inside panel main breaker. There is no
disconnect, not even a meter to pull since my usage is
measured with a "current meter" on the pole with the
transformer. (I could pull the meter and still have
power) My brother, a licensed electrician in FL couldn't
believe it. I even asked the pre work inspector if I
needed a disconnect and he asked where the panel will be.
I showed him it would be directly on the other side of the
block wall. He said if it's only going through the wall,
that I don't have to worry about a disconnect. The main
breaker is right there 1' away. My brother wired it for
me, but he said next time he visits (could be years) that
he is going to add an outside disconnect.

Here in the backwoods of TN. I'm certain the inspector is
on 2008? (newest?) code, but he just forgot what he was
doing.

The meter is not considered a disconnect and there is no NEC
requirement for an outside disconnect.

It says
"The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a
readily accessible location either outside of a building or
structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the
service conductors." (NEC 2008)
They do not specify how far inside the "nearest point" is.
Some AHJs say back to back, other go as far as 5-6 feet.

Your local zoning office is going to know what parts of the NEC and
what its own additions to those might be, so they are the place to
check with, not here. If you're talking to an actual inspector, one
that might actually inspect your own wiring, then he's going to be
telling you what's necessary whether it's only the NEC or whether
they've added their own requirements on top of that. e.g. like,
requiring an outside quick disconnect vs what the NEC says. Remember,
the NEC is only minimum requirements, not necessarily ALL of the
requirements.

I suppose where my brother operates his electrical business they have
a common local code for an outside disconnect and he is just used to
doing it so mine looked odd to him.

A zoning office for electrical code questions?


Not sure if you are being sarcastic or asking a serious question.



It is likely your installation meets the codes. Your NEC required
service disconnect is in the panel in the garage.



Yes, that has been pointed out to me already.



It would be uncommon here to not have a meter installed on the garage,
but the utility can meter at their end. Here anything over 400A would
use "current transformers". Removing the meter on a 3000A service would
do nothing.


The reason for the current transformer is because from the transformer
the power goes 1 direction to the house, and a different direction for
the garage. I had a choice of paying for the current transformer &
labor or add a second service to the garage. For a second service they
would charge me to add a meter to the garage, charge me a $10 fee each
month forever, plus commercial rates for power used. (commercial rates
are higher and only go down after using something like 20,000 KWH's.
And as I stated earlier, I know that pulling out the current transformer
would do nothing (but get me in trouble). I'm not an electrition but am
trained as an electronic technition so I know how the current
transformer works. They could easily tell if I pulled my meter because
it is monitored back at the office. Since the change to the new solid
state meters, they read my meter from their office 10 miles away.

Tony wrote:
bud-- wrote:
Tony wrote:
Twayne wrote:
In news typed:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 16:45:18 -0400, Tony
wrote:

Would you believe that when running a 200 amp feed from
the transformer to my new garage it goes directly from the
transformer to the inside panel main breaker. There is no
disconnect, not even a meter to pull since my usage is
measured with a "current meter" on the pole with the
transformer. (I could pull the meter and still have
power) My brother, a licensed electrician in FL couldn't
believe it. I even asked the pre work inspector if I
needed a disconnect and he asked where the panel will be.
I showed him it would be directly on the other side of the
block wall. He said if it's only going through the wall,
that I don't have to worry about a disconnect. The main
breaker is right there 1' away. My brother wired it for
me, but he said next time he visits (could be years) that
he is going to add an outside disconnect.

Here in the backwoods of TN. I'm certain the inspector is
on 2008? (newest?) code, but he just forgot what he was
doing.

The meter is not considered a disconnect and there is no NEC
requirement for an outside disconnect.

It says
"The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a
readily accessible location either outside of a building or
structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the
service conductors." (NEC 2008)
They do not specify how far inside the "nearest point" is.
Some AHJs say back to back, other go as far as 5-6 feet.

Your local zoning office is going to know what parts of the NEC and
what its own additions to those might be, so they are the place to
check with, not here. If you're talking to an actual inspector, one
that might actually inspect your own wiring, then he's going to be
telling you what's necessary whether it's only the NEC or whether
they've added their own requirements on top of that. e.g. like,
requiring an outside quick disconnect vs what the NEC says.
Remember, the NEC is only minimum requirements, not necessarily ALL
of the requirements.

I suppose where my brother operates his electrical business they have
a common local code for an outside disconnect and he is just used to
doing it so mine looked odd to him.

A zoning office for electrical code questions?


Not sure if you are being sarcastic or asking a serious question.

I doubt any zoning office would know what parts of the NEC have been
locally changed, or care.

The best authority is the inspector, and you already said your inspector
said the installation was OK.

Hence - yes, a bit of sarcasm (but not toward you).

It is likely your installation meets the codes. Your NEC required
service disconnect is in the panel in the garage.

Yes, that has been pointed out to me already.

While it is real nice to be able to kill a panel by pulling the meter,
if you add an outside disconnect the panel becomes a subpanel, and
ground and neutral buses have to be separate and not connected together
- a consideration if you are going to add an outside disconnect and are
wiring with Romex or PVC conduit. If your brother wired the inside the
building he probably already thought of it. I like having the neutral
and system ground connected together at the panel.

It would be uncommon here to not have a meter installed on the garage,
but the utility can meter at their end. Here anything over 400A would
use "current transformers". Removing the meter on a 3000A service
would do nothing.


The reason for the current transformer is because from the transformer
the power goes 1 direction to the house, and a different direction for
the garage. I had a choice of paying for the current transformer &
labor or add a second service to the garage. For a second service they
would charge me to add a meter to the garage, charge me a $10 fee each
month forever, plus commercial rates for power used. (commercial rates
are higher and only go down after using something like 20,000 KWH's.

Plus the lower "steps" per payment period are usually more expensive,
and you would go through the lower steps on both meters.

IMHO a real nice solution from your utility.

And
as I stated earlier, I know that pulling out the current transformer
would do nothing (but get me in trouble). I'm not an electrition but am
trained as an electronic technition so I know how the current
transformer works. They could easily tell if I pulled my meter because
it is monitored back at the office. Since the change to the new solid
state meters, they read my meter from their office 10 miles away.

While I'm sure many people here know what current transformers are, I
suspect many don't. Part of what I intended to say is that using current
transformers is not particularly uncommon. Some farms have current
transformers like you do.

--
bud--

wrote:
On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 15:38:26 -0500, bud--
wrote:

While it is real nice to be able to kill a panel by pulling the meter,

They are really discouraging that among firemen. Pulling a meter with
a fault down stream can really create a heluva arc flash.

Does Florida want outside disconnects on services?
I assume where it is required it is for fire disconnect.

--
bud--

On Apr 19, 4:25*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 16:09:50 -0500, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 15:38:26 -0500, bud--
wrote:

While it is real nice to be able to kill a panel by pulling the meter,

They are really discouraging that among firemen. Pulling a meter with
a fault down stream can really create a heluva arc flash.

Does Florida want outside disconnects on services?
I assume where it is required it is for fire disconnect.

The only place I have seen anyone ask was in one beach community where
they want a ground level disconnect on a piling house that is over 6'
above grade ... but there is really no code to require it. I saw one
on a house I was inspecting and asked the EC. He told me the local AHJ
wanted it. This was a state job and I was the AHJ on that particular
house so I didn't really care. All I was interested in was whether the
house panel was wired as a sub at that point
I am still not sure how that AHJ gets away with it. I guess the ECs
just don't want to make waves. If they called Tallahassee the AHJ
would lose.

Perhaps they'd lose, but I doubt you'd win. That's sorta the way it
goes with inspectors.