B and Q are doing a selection of wall hung *flueless* gas fires.

We had those tv ads a while ago saying how dangerous your gas fire was if
the chimney was blocked. We are also warned about providing sufficent
ventilation for gas fires.

Would someone be able to explain to a novice what is happening to the
noxious fumes that we are warned about, when the gas fires is flueless?

"john hamilton" wrote:

B and Q are doing a selection of wall hung *flueless* gas fires.

We had those tv ads a while ago saying how dangerous your gas fire was if
the chimney was blocked. We are also warned about providing sufficent
ventilation for gas fires.

Would someone be able to explain to a novice what is happening to the
noxious fumes that we are warned about, when the gas fires is flueless?


A furnace probably runs 100k BTU/h. A water heater 60K BTU/H.
A ventless heater is more likely 30K or less. [some are 5K] Less
BTU=less combustion=less CO.

That said--- you can still kill yourself with CO if you put one in a
space too small for it. A 30K in a small bedroom should kill you
the first night.


Jim

On 2/24/2010 6:39 AM, john hamilton wrote:
B and Q are doing a selection of wall hung *flueless* gas fires.

We had those tv ads a while ago saying how dangerous your gas fire was if
the chimney was blocked. We are also warned about providing sufficent
ventilation for gas fires.

Would someone be able to explain to a novice what is happening to the
noxious fumes that we are warned about, when the gas fires is flueless?


These heaters have shut off sensors if oxygen gets too low or carbon
monoxide is generated in excess. You can live with the carbon dioxide
and water that complete combustion generates. Personally these heaters
make me nervous as who wants to be sleeping if the safety overrides fail?

On Feb 24, 5:39*am, "john hamilton" wrote:
B and Q are doing a selection of wall hung *flueless* gas fires.

We had those tv ads a while ago saying how dangerous your gas fire was if
the chimney was blocked. We are also warned about providing sufficent
ventilation for gas fires.

Would someone be able to explain to a novice what is happening to the
noxious fumes that we are warned about, when the gas fires is flueless?

You breathe them, You hope the Oxygen Depletion and your Co sensors
all work, you hope your house is loose enough to breath out the
poisons induced into your home, or you don`t worry or think and call
it the Flue if it affects you. But if you only run it a few hours a
day in a non super sealed house it should be ok. Like running the gas
oven or having all the stove burners on. I would not want one, there
is to much indoor pollution anyway in winter, in a garage for short
periods it would be ok, but Ng contains alot of water that will raise
the humidity where these are used.

On Feb 24, 7:52*am, ransley wrote:
On Feb 24, 5:39*am, "john hamilton" wrote:

B and Q are doing a selection of wall hung *flueless* gas fires.

We had those tv ads a while ago saying how dangerous your gas fire was if
the chimney was blocked. We are also warned about providing sufficent
ventilation for gas fires.

Would someone be able to explain to a novice what is happening to the
noxious fumes that we are warned about, when the gas fires is flueless?

You breathe them, You hope the Oxygen Depletion and your Co sensors
all work, you hope your house is loose enough to breath out the
poisons induced into your home, or you don`t worry or think and call
it the Flue if it affects you. But if you only run it a few hours a
day in a non super sealed house it should be ok. Like running the gas
oven or having all the stove burners on. I would not want one, there
is to much indoor pollution anyway in winter, in a garage for short
periods it would be ok, but Ng contains alot of water that will raise
the humidity where these are used.


Also, it depends on what you mean by gas fires. There are ventless
gas fireplaces that are not designed to provide heat, but mainly for
visual appeal. Consequently, I would think they would use less gas,
be less of a potential hazard and more common. Other units are
designed to actually provide heat. Some states do not allow them
because of safety concerns.

You need to do your own due diligence and figure out how comfortable
you are with whatever gas fire you are talking about.

john hamilton wrote:
B and Q are doing a selection of wall hung *flueless* gas fires.

We had those tv ads a while ago saying how dangerous your gas fire
was if the chimney was blocked. We are also warned about providing
sufficent ventilation for gas fires.

Would someone be able to explain to a novice what is happening to the
noxious fumes that we are warned about, when the gas fires is
flueless?

There are no noxious fumes from a properly-operating gas flame.

That there COULD be something dangerous is what gets some Chicken-Little
types all exercised.

In the years before central heating was common, millions of families got
along quite well, without mishap, by using gas space heaters. There were gas
outlets in every room, much like electrical outlets today.

Before that, when gas lighting was the norm, the flames were actually
DESIGNED to generate Carbon monoxide. That is, gas lights depended on
incomplete combustion to generate a yellow flame rather than the
complete-combustion blue flame like you see on today's gas ranges.

On Feb 24, 7:49*am, wrote:
On Feb 24, 7:52*am, ransley wrote:





On Feb 24, 5:39*am, "john hamilton" wrote:

B and Q are doing a selection of wall hung *flueless* gas fires.

We had those tv ads a while ago saying how dangerous your gas fire was if
the chimney was blocked. We are also warned about providing sufficent
ventilation for gas fires.

Would someone be able to explain to a novice what is happening to the
noxious fumes that we are warned about, when the gas fires is flueless?

You breathe them, You hope the Oxygen Depletion and your Co sensors
all work, you hope your house is loose enough to breath out the
poisons induced into your home, or you don`t worry or think and call
it the Flue if it affects you. But if you only run it a few hours a
day in a non super sealed house it should be ok. Like running the gas
oven or having all the stove burners on. I would not want one, there
is to much indoor pollution anyway in winter, in a garage for short
periods it would be ok, but Ng contains alot of water that will raise
the humidity where these are used.

Also, it depends on what you mean by gas fires. * There are ventless
gas fireplaces that are not designed to provide heat, but mainly for
visual appeal. *Consequently, I would think they would use less gas,
be less of a potential hazard and more common. * Other units are
designed to actually provide heat. * Some states do not allow them
because of safety concerns.

You need to do your own due diligence and figure out how comfortable
you are with whatever gas fire you are talking about.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Isnt ventless outlawed in some or most of Canada?

"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
...
"john hamilton" wrote:

B and Q are doing a selection of wall hung *flueless* gas fires.

We had those tv ads a while ago saying how dangerous your gas fire was if
the chimney was blocked. We are also warned about providing sufficent
ventilation for gas fires.

Would someone be able to explain to a novice what is happening to the
noxious fumes that we are warned about, when the gas fires is flueless?


A furnace probably runs 100k BTU/h. A water heater 60K BTU/H.
A ventless heater is more likely 30K or less. [some are 5K] Less
BTU=less combustion=less CO.

That said--- you can still kill yourself with CO if you put one in a
space too small for it. A 30K in a small bedroom should kill you
the first night.


Jim

Where do you get your information from? Or are you just guessing?

On Feb 24, 9:09*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
john hamilton wrote:
B and Q are doing a selection of wall hung *flueless* gas fires.

We had those tv ads a while ago saying how dangerous your gas fire
was if the chimney was blocked. We are also warned about providing
sufficent ventilation for gas fires.

Would someone be able to explain to a novice what is happening to the
noxious fumes that we are warned about, when the gas fires is
flueless?

There are no noxious fumes from a properly-operating gas flame.

That there COULD be something dangerous is what gets some Chicken-Little
types all exercised.

In the years before central heating was common, millions of families got
along quite well, without mishap, by using gas space heaters. There were gas
outlets in every room, much like electrical outlets today.

Before that, when gas lighting was the norm, the flames were actually
DESIGNED to generate Carbon monoxide. That is, gas lights depended on
incomplete combustion to generate a yellow flame rather than the
complete-combustion blue flame like you see on today's gas ranges.

Probably one of the reasons life expectancy was far less in the old
days

"Frank" wrote in message
...
On Feb 24, 9:09 am, "HeyBub" wrote:
john hamilton wrote:
B and Q are doing a selection of wall hung *flueless* gas fires.

We had those tv ads a while ago saying how dangerous your gas fire
was if the chimney was blocked. We are also warned about providing
sufficent ventilation for gas fires.

Would someone be able to explain to a novice what is happening to the
noxious fumes that we are warned about, when the gas fires is
flueless?

There are no noxious fumes from a properly-operating gas flame.

That there COULD be something dangerous is what gets some Chicken-Little
types all exercised.

In the years before central heating was common, millions of families got
along quite well, without mishap, by using gas space heaters. There were
gas
outlets in every room, much like electrical outlets today.

Before that, when gas lighting was the norm, the flames were actually
DESIGNED to generate Carbon monoxide. That is, gas lights depended on
incomplete combustion to generate a yellow flame rather than the
complete-combustion blue flame like you see on today's gas ranges.

Probably one of the reasons life expectancy was far less in the old
days



These fires have a catalytic converter which converts all harmfull gases
into carbon dioxide and water vapour and they are said to be 100% efficient.
How much water vapour it produces into the room they dont say.

Bill.1

"BILL" wrote:

-snip-


Probably one of the reasons life expectancy was far less in the old
days

Actually infant mortality is what made it *appear* that folks died
young 'in the old days'.


These fires have a catalytic converter which converts all harmfull gases
into carbon dioxide and water vapour and they are said to be 100% efficient.
How much water vapour it produces into the room they dont say.

My 20K ventless does not steam up the windows in the room where it
resides. If it is below 0F it runs most of the time. A shower in
the adjacent bathroom -- or boiling a pot of pasta on the stove in the
other adjacent room will steam up the windows.

Jim

On Feb 24, 11:54*am, "BILL" wrote:
"Frank" wrote in message

...
On Feb 24, 9:09 am, "HeyBub" wrote:





john hamilton wrote:
B and Q are doing a selection of wall hung *flueless* gas fires.

We had those tv ads a while ago saying how dangerous your gas fire
was if the chimney was blocked. We are also warned about providing
sufficent ventilation for gas fires.

Would someone be able to explain to a novice what is happening to the
noxious fumes that we are warned about, when the gas fires is
flueless?

There are no noxious fumes from a properly-operating gas flame.

That there COULD be something dangerous is what gets some Chicken-Little
types all exercised.

In the years before central heating was common, millions of families got
along quite well, without mishap, by using gas space heaters. There were
gas
outlets in every room, much like electrical outlets today.

Before that, when gas lighting was the norm, the flames were actually
DESIGNED to generate Carbon monoxide. That is, gas lights depended on
incomplete combustion to generate a yellow flame rather than the
complete-combustion blue flame like you see on today's gas ranges.

Probably one of the reasons life expectancy was far less in the old
days

These fires have a catalytic converter which converts all harmfull gases
into carbon dioxide and water vapour and they are said to be 100% efficient.

"ransley" wrote in message
...

Ng contains alot of water

Is that the opposite of alittle water?

Would someone be able to explain to a novice what is happening to the
noxious fumes that we are warned about, when the gas fires is
flueless?

they'll be going out the 3 or 4 foot square vents the BG service bod put in
when he came round for the anual service call wont they.

prolly as good at warming a room up as those open fronted fake coal gas
fires with a fan to suck the gasses out a horizontal flue, mum's got one of
them, looks nice but im sure room gets colder with it on due to the fan, and
not very realistic with the sound of a small turbine whining away behind the
grate.

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 08:10:32 GMT, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:


"Gazz" wrote in message
...
Would someone be able to explain to a novice what is happening to
the
noxious fumes that we are warned about, when the gas fires is
flueless?

they'll be going out the 3 or 4 foot square vents the BG service bod put
in when he came round for the anual service call wont they.

prolly as good at warming a room up as those open fronted fake coal gas
fires with a fan to suck the gasses out a horizontal flue, mum's got one
of them, looks nice but im sure room gets colder with it on due to the
fan, and not very realistic with the sound of a small turbine whining away
behind the grate.

A flueless gas fire was been fitted to a house refurb I was working on last
week. I believe it had an output of 3kW.

W is the abbreviation for Watts in the US [most of the folks on
alt.home.repair are American]. What does it represent there?

If you meant 3000BTU/H, the folks would do better to turn a burner on
their range on. I have one that produces 10K BTU/H.

I guess that the 100cm2 vent that
was installed will let more cold air in than the fire can heat.

Maybe ventless are different in the UK than in the states. My 30K
BTU/H ventless has no connection to the outside. It uses inside air
for combustion. It produces less CO than my kitchen range with 4
burners and the oven going. And it is in a bigger room.

Jim

"Gazz" wrote in message
...
Would someone be able to explain to a novice what is happening to
the
noxious fumes that we are warned about, when the gas fires is
flueless?

they'll be going out the 3 or 4 foot square vents the BG service bod put
in when he came round for the anual service call wont they.

prolly as good at warming a room up as those open fronted fake coal gas
fires with a fan to suck the gasses out a horizontal flue, mum's got one
of them, looks nice but im sure room gets colder with it on due to the
fan, and not very realistic with the sound of a small turbine whining away
behind the grate.

we have 2 vent less gas fire places. one upstairs, one down. had them for 8
years now. we also have 1 carbon monoxide meter within 10 feet of each
fireplace. alerts have never gone off, though we could smell the gas.
checked it two different times with a CO meter that gauged it at 2 which was
in fact pretty good.
what we have learned though is that these things...though very efficiant,
are best run for no longer that 1 or 2 hours. in fact, the only time we
really use them is for a type of instant heat when we walk in the door in
very cold weather. the trick for the smell is the cleaning of the burner bar
and logs. any dust whatsoever causes a distinct unpleasant smell. we use
just windex to get the carbon gunk off the bars 2 times per season. roughly
25 hours of use causes a need for the burner to be wiped clean. downstairs
also has a ceiling fan which really helps keeping the heat down.
hope this helps.

On Feb 25, 6:30*am, "skeeter" wrote:
"Gazz" wrote in message

...

Would someone be able to explain to a novice what is happening to
the
noxious fumes that we are warned about, when the gas fires is
flueless?

they'll be going out the 3 or 4 foot square vents the BG service bod put
in when he came round for the anual service call wont they.

prolly as good at warming a room up as those open fronted fake coal gas
fires with a fan to suck the gasses out a horizontal flue, mum's got one
of them, looks nice but im sure room gets colder with it on due to the
fan, and not very realistic with the sound of a small turbine whining away
behind the grate.

we have 2 vent less gas fire places. one upstairs, one down. had them for 8
years now. we also have 1 carbon monoxide meter within 10 feet of each
fireplace. alerts have never gone off, though we could smell the gas.
checked it two different times with a CO meter that gauged it at 2 which was
in fact pretty good.
what we have learned though is that these things...though very efficiant,
are best run for no longer that 1 or 2 hours. in fact, the only time we
really use them is for a type of instant heat when we walk in the door in
very cold weather. the trick for the smell is the cleaning of the burner bar
and logs. any dust whatsoever causes a distinct unpleasant smell. we use
just windex to get the carbon gunk off the bars 2 times per season. roughly
25 hours of use causes a need for the burner to be wiped clean. downstairs
also has a ceiling fan which really helps keeping the heat down.
hope this helps.

To get a Co meter to alarm means you are in immediate danger since
the alarmed setting is very high to prevent false alarms. It has to be
above a certain ppm for a period of time. You are in danger long
before it alarms, in long term exposure the danger point is very
low.

Does your meter have a peak memory function , is that what you check,
because if not with regular meters like the Nighthawk digital your are
in danger long before it alarms. Even long term exposure to about 1/10
the standard alarmed setting is real bad for you, 0ppm Co is what is
healthy, 20-50 for short periods made my neighbor sick, it was her
furnace, the heat exchanger was shot with cracks in most all sections,
it was poisoning her, slowly. It didnt set off the Nighthawk since the
furnace cycled shorter then Nighthawks time frame of alarming and her
house was loose, but she was sick. It was good the Nighthawk recorded
Peak Co, checking the memory proved she had a serious issue, she got a
new furnace the next day. Google, Health Risks of long term low level
Co exposure. Its very serious.

On Feb 25, 7:30*am, "skeeter" wrote:
"Gazz" wrote in message

...

Would someone be able to explain to a novice what is happening to
the
noxious fumes that we are warned about, when the gas fires is
flueless?

they'll be going out the 3 or 4 foot square vents the BG service bod put
in when he came round for the anual service call wont they.

prolly as good at warming a room up as those open fronted fake coal gas
fires with a fan to suck the gasses out a horizontal flue, mum's got one
of them, looks nice but im sure room gets colder with it on due to the
fan, and not very realistic with the sound of a small turbine whining away
behind the grate.

we have 2 vent less gas fire places. one upstairs, one down. had them for 8
years now. we also have 1 carbon monoxide meter within 10 feet of each
fireplace. alerts have never gone off, though we could smell the gas.

Carbon monoxide is odorless, which is one of the reasons it's so
deadly. You may have smelled unburned nat gas, or something else,
but it sure wasn't the CO.




checked it two different times with a CO meter that gauged it at 2 which was
in fact pretty good.
what we have learned though is that these things...though very efficiant,
are best run for no longer that 1 or 2 hours. in fact, the only time we
really use them is for a type of instant heat when we walk in the door in
very cold weather. the trick for the smell is the cleaning of the burner bar
and logs. any dust whatsoever causes a distinct unpleasant smell. we use
just windex to get the carbon gunk off the bars 2 times per season. roughly
25 hours of use causes a need for the burner to be wiped clean. downstairs
also has a ceiling fan which really helps keeping the heat down.
hope this helps.

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 07:02:04 -0500, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 08:10:32 GMT, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:


"Gazz" wrote in message
...
Would someone be able to explain to a novice what is happening to
the
noxious fumes that we are warned about, when the gas fires is
flueless?

they'll be going out the 3 or 4 foot square vents the BG service bod put
in when he came round for the anual service call wont they.

prolly as good at warming a room up as those open fronted fake coal gas
fires with a fan to suck the gasses out a horizontal flue, mum's got one
of them, looks nice but im sure room gets colder with it on due to the
fan, and not very realistic with the sound of a small turbine whining away
behind the grate.

A flueless gas fire was been fitted to a house refurb I was working on last
week. I believe it had an output of 3kW.

W is the abbreviation for Watts in the US [most of the folks on
alt.home.repair are American]. What does it represent there?

watts.

If you meant 3000BTU/H, the folks would do better to turn a burner on
their range on. I have one that produces 10K BTU/H.

3000W = 10238BTU/hr

I guess that the 100cm2 vent that
was installed will let more cold air in than the fire can heat.

Maybe ventless are different in the UK than in the states. My 30K
BTU/H ventless has no connection to the outside. It uses inside air
for combustion. It produces less CO than my kitchen range with 4
burners and the oven going. And it is in a bigger room.

We just bought a set of ventless gas logs for the fireplace; 8kW (or
37000BTU/hr).

krw wrote:

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 07:02:04 -0500, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 08:10:32 GMT, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:

-snip-

A flueless gas fire was been fitted to a house refurb I was working on last
week. I believe it had an output of 3kW.

W is the abbreviation for Watts in the US [most of the folks on
alt.home.repair are American]. What does it represent there?

watts.

If you meant 3000BTU/H, the folks would do better to turn a burner on
their range on. I have one that produces 10K BTU/H.

3000W = 10238BTU/hr

Thanks for that. I've never seen watts used to measure heat except
in electric heaters. Might be our 'common language' - or it might
just be that I haven't spent a lot of time reading about heat lately.

Jim

"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
...
krw wrote:

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 07:02:04 -0500, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 08:10:32 GMT, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:

-snip-

A flueless gas fire was been fitted to a house refurb I was working on
last
week. I believe it had an output of 3kW.

W is the abbreviation for Watts in the US [most of the folks on
alt.home.repair are American]. What does it represent there?

watts.

If you meant 3000BTU/H, the folks would do better to turn a burner on
their range on. I have one that produces 10K BTU/H.

3000W = 10238BTU/hr

Thanks for that. I've never seen watts used to measure heat except
in electric heaters. Might be our 'common language' - or it might
just be that I haven't spent a lot of time reading about heat lately.

Jim


I guessed that alt.home.repair was mainly used in America, the original post
was cross posted with free.uk.diy.home.

Gas ovens, gas hobs, gas boilers all seem to be measured in kW in the UK.

The flueless gas fires seem more to be for display than actual heating over
here. krw's 8kW fire looks like it is meant to actually heat things up and
not just look pretty.

Adam

On Feb 25, 11:12*am, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:
"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message

...





krw wrote:

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 07:02:04 -0500, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 08:10:32 GMT, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:

-snip-

A flueless gas fire was been fitted to a house refurb I was working on
last
week. I believe it had an output of 3kW.

W is the abbreviation for Watts in the US [most of the folks on
alt.home.repair are American]. * * What does it represent there?

watts.

If you meant 3000BTU/H, the folks would do better to turn a burner on
their range on. *I have one that produces 10K BTU/H.

3000W = 10238BTU/hr

Thanks for that. * *I've never seen watts used to measure heat except
in electric heaters. * Might be our 'common language' - or it might
just be that I haven't spent a lot of time reading about heat lately.

Jim

I guessed that alt.home.repair was mainly used in America, the original post
was cross posted with free.uk.diy.home.

Gas ovens, gas hobs, gas boilers all seem to be measured in kW in the UK.

The flueless gas fires seem more to be for display than actual heating over
here. krw's 8kW fire looks like it is meant to actually heat things up and
not just look pretty.

Adam- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Over here in the US we use a rating you probably have never heard of,
BTU, British Thermal Unit. Kw, but you guys are not metric, driving on
the Right side is Right.

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 17:12:11 GMT, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:


"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
.. .
krw wrote:

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 07:02:04 -0500, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 08:10:32 GMT, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:

-snip-

A flueless gas fire was been fitted to a house refurb I was working on
last
week. I believe it had an output of 3kW.

W is the abbreviation for Watts in the US [most of the folks on
alt.home.repair are American]. What does it represent there?

watts.

If you meant 3000BTU/H, the folks would do better to turn a burner on
their range on. I have one that produces 10K BTU/H.

3000W = 10238BTU/hr

Thanks for that. I've never seen watts used to measure heat except
in electric heaters. Might be our 'common language' - or it might
just be that I haven't spent a lot of time reading about heat lately.

Jim


I guessed that alt.home.repair was mainly used in America, the original post
was cross posted with free.uk.diy.home.

That's pretty much what I suspected. ;-)

Gas ovens, gas hobs, gas boilers all seem to be measured in kW in the UK.

The flueless gas fires seem more to be for display than actual heating over
here. krw's 8kW fire looks like it is meant to actually heat things up and
not just look pretty.

Yes, both "vented" and "vent-free" gas logs are available. The
vent-free variety tend to have a higher output and are used for
heating. The vented logs are more or less for decoration, since much
of the heat escapes up the flue.

We use heat pumps for central heat. The idea of the gas fireplace
logs is for auxiliary heat for the few nights where it's really too
cold for the heat pumps to operate well (not enough resistive heat to
maintain temperature, either). We should also be able to turn the
temperature in the house down a few degrees because the gas will help
recovery (heat pumps suck).

The problem with a flueless gas fire is...
- Ventilation requirements likely exceed the heat output capability
- Water output is high, not unlike an LPG bottle radiant heater

In the UK there are Balanced Flue flame effect fires.
- These simply require an outside wall
- Drill a hole, fit a coaxial flue
- Air pulled in from outside, combustion products out

It would be interesting to compare a flueless gas fire efficiency
(with BG 10x10cm free air flow vent) to an electric version. Gas is
abour 3p, Electric peak is about 10p (UK).

I recall Gas Inset DFE Fires can be below 35% efficient and any heat
up the open flue will draw more cold air through the house so are
probably 25-20% efficient in most cases. That means they are as or
more expensive than an "Electric DFE" - better to get an oil radiator
or fan heater and a TFT panel with flickering fire video looping on it.

"js.b1" wrote:

The problem with a flueless gas fire is...
- Ventilation requirements likely exceed the heat output capability

I'm not understanding this. Maybe it is our 'common language'. Is
'flueless' the same as 'ventless'? In the US a ventless has no
requirement for outside air.

- Water output is high, not unlike an LPG bottle radiant heater

My 30K BTU heater has never steamed up any windows. A pot of
spaghetti on the stove puts out more moisture.

For me, the moisture that is added by an LPG fire is welcome- as it is
a struggle to keep the humdity as high as 38 in my NE US winters.


In the UK there are Balanced Flue flame effect fires.
- These simply require an outside wall
- Drill a hole, fit a coaxial flue
- Air pulled in from outside, combustion products out

A ventless fire- there are wall heaters and freestanding stoves, as
well as 'logs' that go in fireplaces- in the US just needs a gas line
run to it. Combustion air is provided by the natural infiltration
that all houses have. There is a safety switch that should turn
the gas off is there is not enough oxygen for combustion.


It would be interesting to compare a flueless gas fire efficiency
(with BG 10x10cm free air flow vent) to an electric version. Gas is
abour 3p, Electric peak is about 10p (UK).

This year- my ventless is slightly more expensive than electric. [but
cheaper than my oil by about 25%] Up until a couple years ago it
was cheaper than the electric.

I used 100% efficiency for electric and my ventless propane-- and 75 %
for my oil furnace. It tests at 85% at the flue, and I allow for a
bit lost in the ducts.

I recall Gas Inset DFE Fires can be below 35% efficient and any heat
up the open flue will draw more cold air through the house so are
probably 25-20% efficient in most cases. That means they are as or
more expensive than an "Electric DFE" - better to get an oil radiator
or fan heater and a TFT panel with flickering fire video looping on it.

Although we both seem to have a different idea of ventless/flueless -
we both agree that anything with a chimney in a living area is a
losing proposition.

Jim

"js.b1" wrote in message
...
The problem with a flueless gas fire is...
- Ventilation requirements likely exceed the heat output capability
- Water output is high, not unlike an LPG bottle radiant heater

In the UK there are Balanced Flue flame effect fires.
- These simply require an outside wall
- Drill a hole, fit a coaxial flue
- Air pulled in from outside, combustion products out

It would be interesting to compare a flueless gas fire efficiency
(with BG 10x10cm free air flow vent) to an electric version. Gas is
abour 3p, Electric peak is about 10p (UK).

I recall Gas Inset DFE Fires can be below 35% efficient and any heat
up the open flue will draw more cold air through the house so are
probably 25-20% efficient in most cases. That means they are as or
more expensive than an "Electric DFE" - better to get an oil radiator
or fan heater and a TFT panel with flickering fire video looping on it.


Some info here

http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/rrhtm/rr023.htm

and the report that it links to.

Adam

"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
...
"js.b1" wrote:

The problem with a flueless gas fire is...
- Ventilation requirements likely exceed the heat output capability

I'm not understanding this. Maybe it is our 'common language'. Is
'flueless' the same as 'ventless'? In the US a ventless has no
requirement for outside air.

I imagine so, however secondary ventilation is often needed in the uk. A
flueless gas fire in the UK has no flue or vent but there is a reqirement
for a ventilation hole elsewhere in the room to allow fresh air in.

- Water output is high, not unlike an LPG bottle radiant heater

My 30K BTU heater has never steamed up any windows. A pot of
spaghetti on the stove puts out more moisture.

Of course. You are boiling water on the stove and creating extra moisure.
Even lighting the stove with no pot on will create some moisture as a by
product of the burning process.

For me, the moisture that is added by an LPG fire is welcome- as it is
a struggle to keep the humdity as high as 38 in my NE US winters.

Many house in the UK suffer from damp and extra moisture is not welcome. New
build houses in the UK are often air presure tested and need to meet
specific targets to stop the natural ingress of air.

A little bit of water between us makes a big difference to a common
language.

Adam

On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 05:16:20 -0800 (PST), "js.b1"
wrote:

The problem with a flueless gas fire is...
- Ventilation requirements likely exceed the heat output capability

Nonsense.

- Water output is high, not unlike an LPG bottle radiant heater

In the winter water is goodness. It's not all *that* much water,
anyway.

In the UK there are Balanced Flue flame effect fires.
- These simply require an outside wall
- Drill a hole, fit a coaxial flue
- Air pulled in from outside, combustion products out

We have those too; ugly. Our fireplace is on an interior wall anyway.

It would be interesting to compare a flueless gas fire efficiency
(with BG 10x10cm free air flow vent) to an electric version. Gas is
abour 3p, Electric peak is about 10p (UK).

Which is about 1/2 our cost. Electric fireplaces are even uglier. If
I wanted to heat with resistive electric heaters I'd ditch the heat
pumps (an incredibly *dumb* idea).

I recall Gas Inset DFE Fires can be below 35% efficient and any heat
up the open flue will draw more cold air through the house so are
probably 25-20% efficient in most cases. That means they are as or
more expensive than an "Electric DFE" - better to get an oil radiator
or fan heater and a TFT panel with flickering fire video looping on it.

How are you measuring "efficiency"? They certainly combust more than
65% of the propane.

How much water vapour it produces into the room they dont say.


From memory it is roughly that 22.4 litres - which is a bit under a
cubic foot - of methane (natural gas) gives 36g of water which is about
an ounce and a bit. So a fair bit of water. I would look at my gas
bill and tell you how many kWh per cubic metre methane is, but I've lost it.

On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 18:14:46 +0000, Chewbacca
wrote:


How much water vapour it produces into the room they dont say.


From memory it is roughly that 22.4 litres - which is a bit under a
cubic foot - of methane (natural gas) gives 36g of water which is about
an ounce and a bit. So a fair bit of water. I would look at my gas
bill and tell you how many kWh per cubic metre methane is, but I've lost it.

In the case of propane:

C3H8 + 5(O2) = 3(CO2) + 4(H2O)

If I've done my arithmetic properly... Water vapor output is 4x the
propane input by volume or about 25% more by weight. A gallon of
propane weighs something like five pounds so, if I've done my numbers
right, it'll put out a little less than a gallon of water. A gallon
is 93kBTU, so a bit under three hours on a 37kBTU (my 8kW, from
before) logs. A extra gallon of water would be quite welcome in most
houses in the heating season.

krw wrote...
"js.b1" wrote:
The problem with a flueless gas fire is...
- Ventilation requirements likely exceed
the heat output capability

Nonsense.

No & Yes - it depends on house design:
2008 - near air tight, well insulated.
1950 - air sieve, uninsulated, 1-2 open flue chimney.

USA housing stock differs greatly from UK.


2008 house is a near air tight box.
- Air tight = few Air Changes per Hour (ACH)
- Adding a 4in*4in vent doesn't make ACH rocket
- So comfort impact is limited

Cited H&S study found the vent didn't affect temps much.
That is as expected, 2008 house has little heat loss & has
*restricted* ACH.


1950 house is full of huge holes.
- Air sieve = huge Air Changes per Hour
- 1-2 open flue chimney with convection column from room heat & wind
action.
- Adding a 4in*4in vent will make ACH rocket
- So comfort impact is enormous

Example.
1 - 1950s living area, flue blocked by plywood.
- Heat calc: 440W required for 21oC.
- Heat test: 500W heater maintained 22oC.

2 - 1950s living area, flue with outset gas fire turned OFF.
- Heat calc: 750W required for 21oC based on ACH guess.
- Heat test: 1440W heater maintained 19.5oC.

3 - 1950s living area, open flue.
- Heat calc: 1000W required for 21oC based on ACH guess.
- Heat test: 2000W could not raise temp 15oC.


UK housing is closer to 1950 than 2008.
Wall hung flueless fires work well in modern air tight construction.
HSE test indicates they DO thermally work in modern air tight
construction, but the problem is 1) CO2 concentration 2) a poor burner
hidden by a catalyst.



UK Inset Decorative Flame Effect Fi
- Inset DFE fire sits below an *open flue*.
- Mimimal fire output radiates into the room.
- Most fire output convects up the chimney.
- Open chimney draw sucks the room cold.
- Net result is you burn 6-8kW for 2kW into room.
- Complaint usually "frozen & cold ankles re draughts".

Nothing to do with the burner efficiency.

Inset DFE efficiency typically quoted 28-38%.
- UK thermal losses can be high re minimal Floor Wall Loft insulation.
- UK ventilation can be high re numerous house wall vents.
- Stick an 8kW flame below an open flue and all the heat goes up it

With older UK house thermal losses and often numerous 9in*6in
ventilators, sticking a DFE fire below an open flue creates an
immensely powerful heat pump up the chimney. Real world figures can be
as low as 15%, so even with 8kW input people can't get warm because
the draught sucks the room cold or entire house cold yet high running
costs.

This is one area where UK v USA can differ enormously re installed
housing construction.

On Feb 26, 7:43*pm, krw wrote:
A extra gallon of water would be quite welcome in most
houses in the heating season.

In the UK the opposite is preferable.

Kitchen:
- 75m3/hr extractor over a cooker/hob
- 150m3/hr extractor if say a wall fan

Bathroom:
- Similar water extraction required

UK houses very quickly suffer from damp & condensation.
If you try to heat an older house via an LPG portable heater the
airflow requirements for the burner and to avoid condensation will
almost negate the heating effect (ie, you will need huge amounts of
LPG to compensate making the seemingly cheap heating very much more
expensive).

UK construction:
- Double solid brick or similar (1930)
- Brick-Brick Brick-Block cavity wall (1950)
- Brick-Wood cavity wall (1970)
- Brick-Wood insulated cavity, airtight (2000)

It was based around cheap wood/coal open fires, huge kW output.

U values...
- Solid 9in double brick - 2.11
- Cavity wall brick - 1.73
- Insulated Cavity Wall - 0.73
- 2008 wall - 0.35

Much of the UK housing stock has...
- No floor insulation
- No wall insulation (U = 2.11-1.73)
- No loft insulation (U = 5-8 or something?)
- Single glazing (U = 4 or so)

Air Changes per Hour:
- 2008 is almost air tight
- 1950 house with 1-2 open flue the exact opposite

To be honest there should not be free loft insulation.
That should have £100 less subsidy, which should be directed towards
those with solid walls.
Those houses - Hard To Heat Housing - are going to become a real
problem by 2020.
Of course the plan is probably compulsory purchase orders of whole
areas for Property Developers to ride on a free gravy train. Much of
that is already happening with UKs terraced housing, much of which is
ok, some of which is terrible. The problem is the people get peanuts
on the Pound-Sterling and can't afford to go anywhere else; legalised
theft.

UK relied on wood/coal burning 5-10kW open fires.

On Feb 26, 3:58*pm, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:
Some info here
http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/rrhtm/rr023.htm

Interesting report.

They did the test on modern housing, no open flue or large number of
vents, because they were specifically interested in combustion safety.
The vent presence/no-presence did not affect temperatures much because
the vent could not supply an open flue which will draw even without a
fire due to convection (even solar :-)

For older housing the Open Flue when combined with 4in*4in free area
vent can be "quite a draughty combination".

Modern houses DO have a wonderful luxury of high insulation level.
Wall of U = 0.35 is so much different to U = 2.11 and the wood-inner-
leaf also tends to mean very rapid heat up (problem then becomes
enough thermal mass in the room, but fast warmup is great for working
people arriving home as it saves on background non-resident heating
requirements).

"ARWadsworth" wrote:


"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
-snip-

For me, the moisture that is added by an LPG fire is welcome- as it is
a struggle to keep the humdity as high as 38 in my NE US winters.

Many house in the UK suffer from damp and extra moisture is not welcome. New
build houses in the UK are often air presure tested and need to meet
specific targets to stop the natural ingress of air.

I suspect the closest we come in the US to similar conditions would be
our Northwest coast. We started in the US in the 70s to make
super-tight houses, and I believe that theory has fallen into
dis-favor because the indoor pollution was deemed more dangerous than
the monetary gains. [I might be all wet now, I haven't been in that
business for 30 years, so I don't read many current trade books.]

I note on air exchanges on this page from 1997- that ASHRAE [American
Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air-Conditioning Engineers]
recommended a minimum of .35 air exchanges per hour in residential
construction-- but in practice most houses had 1.1.
http://eetd.lbl.gov/newsletter/cbs_nl/nl13/vent.html

Do you know how that squares with UK housing?

A little bit of water between us makes a big difference to a common
language.

Indeed. This is one area where it would have saved the OP some
misleading info if they had named their continent, at least.

Jim

On Feb 26, 9:32*pm, Jim Elbrecht wrote:
recommended a minimum of .35 air exchanges
per hour in residential construction -- but in practice
most houses had 1.1

Living Room generally 2 ACH.
Living Room w/Open Flue can be 3.5-5.5 ACH.

Open Flue can really stuff up the figures for UK GCH (wet) radiator
sizing, you can go from 440W to 1800W.

On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 12:32:19 -0800 (PST), "js.b1"
wrote:

On Feb 26, 7:43*pm, krw wrote:
A extra gallon of water would be quite welcome in most
houses in the heating season.

In the UK the opposite is preferable.

Even in Alabama it's so dry in the Winters that many run humidifiers.
Anytime you heat air the RH drops. Heat air 50 degrees and lizard
skin isn't unusual.

Kitchen:
- 75m3/hr extractor over a cooker/hob
- 150m3/hr extractor if say a wall fan

Water extraction or ventilation? That's significant air exchange
right there.

Bathroom:
- Similar water extraction required


UK houses very quickly suffer from damp & condensation.
If you try to heat an older house via an LPG portable heater the
airflow requirements for the burner and to avoid condensation will
almost negate the heating effect (ie, you will need huge amounts of
LPG to compensate making the seemingly cheap heating very much more
expensive).

UK construction:
- Double solid brick or similar (1930)
- Brick-Brick Brick-Block cavity wall (1950)
- Brick-Wood cavity wall (1970)
- Brick-Wood insulated cavity, airtight (2000)

That's not the point. Heating air reduces its RH. It's not unusual
to have an interior RH under 20%.

"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
...
"ARWadsworth" wrote:


"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
-snip-

For me, the moisture that is added by an LPG fire is welcome- as it is
a struggle to keep the humdity as high as 38 in my NE US winters.

Many house in the UK suffer from damp and extra moisture is not welcome.
New
build houses in the UK are often air presure tested and need to meet
specific targets to stop the natural ingress of air.

I suspect the closest we come in the US to similar conditions would be
our Northwest coast. We started in the US in the 70s to make
super-tight houses, and I believe that theory has fallen into
dis-favor because the indoor pollution was deemed more dangerous than
the monetary gains. [I might be all wet now, I haven't been in that
business for 30 years, so I don't read many current trade books.]

I note on air exchanges on this page from 1997- that ASHRAE [American
Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air-Conditioning Engineers]
recommended a minimum of .35 air exchanges per hour in residential
construction-- but in practice most houses had 1.1.
http://eetd.lbl.gov/newsletter/cbs_nl/nl13/vent.html

Do you know how that squares with UK housing?


This gives some idea on the UK recommended air changes

http://www.manrose.co.uk/fan_select.htm

We tend to rely on mechanical ventilation and not air conditioning. However
I have noticed more households are installing air conditioning. (You have to
realise that air con in cars has only just become the norm over here)

The daft thing is, we now make houses air tight and then add trickle vents
to the windows or fans to certain rooms to allow ventilation.

Adam

Humidity below 0oC collapses.

UK winter consists of continual cycle of freeze (-4oC, low humidity) &
thaw (+4oC, high humidity).
USA winter can be "goes below 0oC and stays below 0oC".

UK 1950s house with moderate ACH & no central heating.
- Humidity inside will be very high, most wood will have some cupping,
paper & cardboard will be "soft", leave a block of A4 paper out and
run it through a laser printer and it will come out as unusable "wood
curls".
- Brick uninsulated walls are typically near the dew point,
condensation with any moisture input is very common

UK 2000s house with few ACH & (wet) radiator central heating.
- Humidity inside will be very low, everything will be "biscuit dry"
- Brick uninsulated walls are typically above the dew point, but
moisture buildup due to few ACH is not removed which can cause
condensation just the same

The big moisture input with (wet) radiator central heating is of
course people drying washing on radiators :-)
The few ACH means that moisture just builds up, eventually eliminated
- but in the mean time the humdity can cycle from very low levels to
very high. It is this that can cause furniture problems are localised
humidity.


Yes heating air does reduce its RH.
However with ACH of 5-8 this will just not happen - you will get wild
swings in humidity and localised high/low humidity.

USA tends to use recirculating ducted warm air heating - good for
managing humidity and permitting multiple heat input choices (heat
pump, electric backup, gas/oil/wood... dodgy DIY nuclear) and is free
of water leak/freeze risk from wet radiator systems.


A lot of the UK housing stock has followed a peculiar route:
- Uninsulated brick walls + Uninsulated loft (12.5mm sheetrock to sub-
zero loft) + Uninsulated floors
- Typically 4-7-12 wall vents, some of which restricted in winter
- Then fit Double Glazing believing 50% of all heat loss is through
windows - it is not! :-)
- Wet (radiator) central heating is then added to *brute-force* the
house warm
- Cold uninsulated walls & ceilings create high heat loss causing
plunging cold draughts
- Open flue often have a radiant gas fire in it, which sucks heated
air up the chimney, pulling in very damp outside air
- Wet (radiator) central heating then brute-force heats this drawn in
air to compensate

It is a quite amusing "someone actually planned this?" system.
Getting rid of open-flue is good, but people do like a radiant heat
source.

On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 06:20:39 -0800 (PST), "js.b1"
wrote:

Humidity below 0oC collapses.

UK winter consists of continual cycle of freeze (-4oC, low humidity) &
thaw (+4oC, high humidity).
USA winter can be "goes below 0oC and stays below 0oC".

Bull****. In the winter here it's almost always below freezing at
night and *rarely* below freezing during the day. That has *nothing*
to do with the interior humidity. Raising the temperature of air
reduces the (relative) humidity - no getting around it. That's just
physics.

After raising the air temperature 30C, you still have high humidity,
you likely have a more serious problem. Your interior air quality
****s (no air exchange at all) or you have water infiltrating the
foundation.

Let's get this much straight before another repeat of the rest of your
rambling bull****.

On Feb 28, 1:31*am, krw wrote:
Bull****. *In the winter here it's almost always below freezing at
night and *rarely* below freezing during the day. *That has *nothing*
to do with the interior humidity.

With *HIGH AIR CHANGES PER HOUR* the OUTSIDE humidity will
DIRECTLY affect INTERIOR humidity if there is *INSUFFICIENT* heating.

UK house with ACH 5+ from 8-12 vents and 2 gas fire open flue chimney:
- 2 open flue chimney draught SUCK in damp air ALL OVER THE HOUSE.
- Humidity in the 2 gas fire heated rooms is LOW, temps 21oC.
- Humidity in the UNHEATED rest of house is HIGH, temps 16-12oC.

UK houses with LIMITED heating and HIGH 5+ ACH are *DAMP*.

UK houses with WHOLE-HOUSE heating are NOT damp.
UK houses with WHOLE-HOUSE heating CAN become damp if people dry wet
washing on radiators and stuff up every vent to reduce ACH 1 in order
to reduce energy - instead of fixing the non-existent insulation.