On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:39:31 -0500, PeterD wrote:

just make sure your splice is absolutely waterproof.
3M makes underground splice kits that may work

I have to find the 4-wire multi-stranded shielded cable first ... but I
will try the splice kit at the same time if I can find that also.

This morning I called GTO technical support again at 800-543-1236 and spoke
this time with a woman with a southern accent who told me a splice could be
done, but she said the problem is that it will eventually break. And, since
it will be underground, I won't know where it is and I'll be calling
technical support who won't know that it was spliced while they
troubleshoot.

When I asked "but CAN it be spliced?", she confirmed there is no difference
in the wand itself between the longer lengths of wire as the sensitivity
adjustments are done on the gate control board itself.

I'll look for that 3M waterproof splice kit. I think I'll need a
low-voltage splice kit. According to this web site, the voltage is 8 to 32
VAC or 8 to 26 VDC with a miniscule current of 1.5ma.
http://www.allsecurityequipment.com/...prod=GTO-FM141

Be sure to let us know how this turns out. You owe us.

More below.

On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 15:07:32 +0000 (UTC), Elmo
wrote:

On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:39:31 -0500, PeterD wrote:

just make sure your splice is absolutely waterproof.
3M makes underground splice kits that may work

I have to find the 4-wire multi-stranded shielded cable first ... but I
will try the splice kit at the same time if I can find that also.

This morning I called GTO technical support again at 800-543-1236 and spoke
this time with a woman with a southern accent who told me a splice could be
done, but she said the problem is that it will eventually break. And, since

No, it won't. Not if it's soldered correctly. Have you soldered
much? Do you know how to solder well, to clean the wire first -- I
just scrape four sides of the wire with a fairly sharp knife --, use
flux core solder designed for electrical work, and make it hot enough
to not get a cold solder joint?

it will be underground, I won't know where it is and I'll be calling

Of course you'll know where it is. It will be 50 feet from where you
buried the wand. And about 100 feet from where the controller is.
Note how far from the driveway you bury it and measure how far from
thecontroller it is, and write it down and tape it to the controller
box.

technical support who won't know that it was spliced while they
troubleshoot.

The next owner might well be in that situation. Make sure you leave
clear documentation for him. The guy who sold me my house spent an
hour teling me things about it.

When I asked "but CAN it be spliced?", she confirmed there is no difference
in the wand itself between the longer lengths of wire as the sensitivity
adjustments are done on the gate control board itself.

As I thought in some other post of mine.

I'll look for that 3M waterproof splice kit. I think I'll need a
low-voltage splice kit.

Anything that works for high voltages works for low voltages. I'm not
sure what the advantage of the kit is. Certainly if I couldn't find
the kit, I'd just wrap the self-fusing tape around the wire, going an
inch or more past the splice, past the part where the original
insulation is still intact.


My neighbor had some semi-skilled guys putting in a small fence and
they cut my phone line. Of course they "took repsonsibilty" and they
were winding the wires together and taping them with standard electric
tape. I came out and stopped them, and soldered the connections and
wrapped them in this self-fusing tape, and even when I had dial-up
internet, I got very good connection speeds.

Later, someone told me I should let the phone company repair it and
indeed they would do it for free, but the guy on the phone said all
they do is use those gel-filled connectors and what I did was better.
Nothing beats solder, and no tape beats Scotch 23.

Now, if you don't have an connector on the end of the wire, you could
use heat-shrink tubing, but though it looks real nice, it doesn't have
much tension when shrinking or afterwareds, and I think the scotch 23,
silicone tape will do a much better job.

According to this web site, the voltage is 8 to 32
VAC or 8 to 26 VDC with a miniscule current of 1.5ma.
http://www.allsecurityequipment.com/...prod=GTO-FM141

BTW, are you near powerlines? Most places aren't but a few are.

I have to find the 4-wire multi-stranded shielded cable first ... but I
will try the splice kit at the same time if I can find that also.

The wire sounds like two pair direct burial phone line. We use it
on irrigation systems. Have you tried the local telephone company?

Dean Hoffman wrote:

I have to find the 4-wire multi-stranded shielded cable first ... but I
will try the splice kit at the same time if I can find that also.

The wire sounds like two pair direct burial phone line. We use it
on irrigation systems. Have you tried the local telephone company?


Direct burial telephone wire is solid, not stranded. It is usually
thinner, like 22 gauge as well.


--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:01:38 -0600, Dean Hoffman wrote:

I have to find the 4-wire multi-stranded shielded cable

The wire sounds like two pair direct burial phone line. We use it
on irrigation systems. Have you tried the local telephone company?

Interesting. I don't know if the local phone company sells to people, but I
can ask.

On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 14:55:51 -0500, mm wrote:


she said the problem is that it will eventually break.

No, it won't. Not if it's soldered correctly.
Have you soldered much?

I have a propane torch, a smaller butane torch with soldering tips, and the
Weller soldering station. I'm not all that good (I always seem to melt the
solder instead of heating the wires) but I'd consider myself ok with
solder.


Of course you'll know where it is. It will be 50 feet from where you
buried the wand. And about 100 feet from where the controller is.

I could also look for an electrical connection type box (like the ones
used with the water sprinklers) and that way it would be obvious to all,
even any new owners.

Now, if you don't have an connector on the end of the wire,
you could use heat-shrink tubing,
I think the scotch 23, silicone tape will do a much better job.

I think I'll solder in a compatible wire after finding that scotch 23 in a
local hardware store. My home depot didn't have it.

BTW, are you near powerlines? Most places aren't but a few are.

Yes There are overhead power lines. Why do you ask?

On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 22:16:34 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Direct burial telephone wire is solid, not stranded.
It is usually thinner, like 22 gauge as well.

I wonder if it matters. What is the fundamental difference between how a
solid wire acts versus multi-stranded wire in this type of low voltage
(8-32v) and very low current (1.5ma) application?

On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 06:10:23 +0000 (UTC), Elmo
wrote:

On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:01:38 -0600, Dean Hoffman wrote:

I have to find the 4-wire multi-stranded shielded cable

The wire sounds like two pair direct burial phone line. We use it
on irrigation systems. Have you tried the local telephone company?

Interesting. I don't know if the local phone company sells to people, but I
can ask.

They sold to our organization once. Those half-round plastic tubes
(half-tubes) 8 feet long that they use. But we had a more
comprehensive arrangement with them before hand. And we had to buy a
box at a time, maybe 100 per box.

Four conductor shielded wire shoudlnt' be easy to get.

In addition, what I said in another post, if you have a half inch with
no shielding, I doubt it matters. Or you can take 2 or 3 inches from
your 100 foot piece, and remove the shielding from that and wrap it
around the splice area. Soldering it at both ends would be optimal.
But it's not like there will be big metal things running over the
splice area inducing the gate to open. Even bicycles are less likely
to ride on the lawn than on the driveway.

On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 06:10:55 +0000 (UTC), Elmo
wrote:

On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 14:55:51 -0500, mm wrote:


she said the problem is that it will eventually break.

No, it won't. Not if it's soldered correctly.
Have you soldered much?

I have a propane torch, a smaller butane torch with soldering tips, and the

I like an electric soldering iron for soldering wires. It's not like
soldering metal gutters.

Weller soldering station. I'm not all that good (I always seem to melt the
solder instead of heating the wires) but I'd consider myself ok with
solder.

After 40 years I often melt the solder directly, but if you make sure
it's hot before taking away the soldering iron, it's fine.

Of course you'll know where it is. It will be 50 feet from where you
buried the wand. And about 100 feet from where the controller is.

I could also look for an electrical connection type box (like the ones
used with the water sprinklers) and that way it would be obvious to all,
even any new owners.

I wouldn't bother.

Now, if you don't have an connector on the end of the wire,
you could use heat-shrink tubing,
I think the scotch 23, silicone tape will do a much better job.

I think I'll solder in a compatible wire after finding that scotch 23 in a
local hardware store. My home depot didn't have it.

http://www.rshughes.com/products/054...&refcp=froogle

Some other websites had 50 or 100 roll minimums!

BTW, are you near powerlines? Most places aren't but a few are.

Yes There are overhead power lines. Why do you ask?

The docs mentioned power lines. but if they are overhead they are
probably too far away to matter.

This has gone on long enough.

As is true of most companies, the company selling this product is unable to
give factual, useful information to the customer. (What else is new?) There
is no reason why the people in this group -- or any other group -- should be
obliged to make up for its failure to do so.

It seems to me that the manufacturer should have supplied information about
selecting the appropriate length of cable, according to the vehicle, the
vehicle owner's needs, etc. It apparently did not. If the customer makes a
mistake, then the company should DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, as I've suggested.

If the company won't, then the owner has no recourse but to purchase a new
cable or sensor-wand system.

I don't see why this group should be expected to analyze an unfamiliar
product and provide useful troubeshooting/modification/repair information,
when the manufacturer won't. This problem cannot be new to the company. It
ought to have some mechanism in place for resovling such issues. Apparently,
it is too stupid to.

IMPORTANT INFORMATION

I just spoke with a customer-service rep at GTO.

He said that they care about their customers and want them to be happy. You
should return the wand to GTO to confirm that it's working correctly. If you
need a longer cable, they will make some accommodation (he didn't say what,
and I didn't press him) so that you can have the longer cable.

Sometimes it's just a matter of knowing how to present your problem.

I hope this resolves it.

On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 05:43:33 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

This has gone on long enough.

As is true of most companies, the company selling this product is unable to
give factual, useful information to the customer. (What else is new?) There
is no reason why the people in this group -- or any other group -- should be
obliged to make up for its failure to do so.

It seems to me that the manufacturer should have supplied information about
selecting the appropriate length of cable, according to the vehicle, the
vehicle owner's needs, etc. It apparently did not. If the customer makes a
mistake, then the company should DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, as I've suggested.

If the company won't, then the owner has no recourse but to purchase a new
cable or sensor-wand system.

I don't see why this group should be expected to analyze an unfamiliar
product and provide useful troubeshooting/modification/repair information,
when the manufacturer won't. This problem cannot be new to the company. It
ought to have some mechanism in place for resovling such issues. Apparently,
it is too stupid to.


I don't see the company at fault in the initial purchase. Also, only
slightly at fault for conflicting advice from the telephone operator
on splicing (which differed from the technician's advice, which is
what I'd consider the be the accurate one...)

If you think that companies should cover all their customer's errors
and mistakes then I'd suggest you start a company and make that a
feature of your operation. Maybe you'll have great success. But my
experience, as a business man, has been that some people make errors,
and it makes little sense to expect someone else to pay for their
errors.

As to not seeing 'why this group should...' realize that is the reason
this group exists! After all, it is not called
'alt.home.repair.get.maker.to.replace.it' or
'sci.electroncs.leverage.the.company'. We concentrated on repairing
the problem. Not trying to figure a way or justification to make the
supplier (who did nothing wrong) to replace a product that was not
defective or flawed.

I don't see the company at fault in the initial purchase. Also, only
slightly at fault for conflicting advice from the telephone operator
on splicing (which differed from the technician's advice, which is
what I'd consider the be the accurate one...)

If you think that companies should cover all their customer's errors
and mistakes then I'd suggest you start a company and make that
a feature of your operation.

I don't. But I think it should make an effort.

See the posting "GTO wand problem resolved (???)". I might have solved the
problem.

"Elmo" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 14:55:51 -0500, mm wrote:


she said the problem is that it will eventually break.

No, it won't. Not if it's soldered correctly.
Have you soldered much?

I have a propane torch, a smaller butane torch with soldering tips, and
the
Weller soldering station. I'm not all that good (I always seem to melt the
solder instead of heating the wires) but I'd consider myself ok with
solder.
Snip

Why not just replace the whole wire from the control box to the sensor wand?
Then theres no splices in the ground.

On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 01:42:30 -0500, mm
wrote:


Four conductor shielded wire shoudlnt' be easy to get.

Typo. I meant it shouldnt' be hard to get. But maybe only
mail-order (internet).


And of course no one on any newsgroup is obliged to solve a poster's
problems. People try because they want to be helpful and sometimes to
show off their knowledge (or what they think is knowledge at the time
of posting.)

And I too considered returning the original cable. I asked if it had
already been buried and was too dirty to return.

And this question was definitely suitable for sci.eletronics.repair,
because the only real question is at the electronics level. The
question of how to connect two cables is just an inquiry about
technique.

And I too considered returning the original cable.
I asked if it had already been buried and was too
dirty to return.

I was told that if you contact customer service, they will make some sort of
accomodation to help you.

Give 'em a call.

On Feb 2, 10:10*pm, Elmo dcdraftwo...@Use-Author-Supplied-
Address.invalid wrote:
On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 14:55:51 -0500, mm wrote:
she said the problem is that it will eventually break.

No, it won't. *Not if it's soldered correctly. *
Have you soldered much? *

I have a propane torch, a smaller butane torch with soldering tips, and the
Weller soldering station. I'm not all that good (I always seem to melt the
solder instead of heating the wires) but I'd consider myself ok with
solder.

Of course you'll know where it is. It will be 50 feet from where you
buried the wand. *And about 100 feet from where the controller is.

I could also look for an electrical connection type box (like the ones
used with the water sprinklers) and that way it would be obvious to all,
even any new owners.

Now, if you don't have an connector on the end of the wire,
you could use heat-shrink tubing,
I think the scotch 23, silicone tape will do a much better job.

I think I'll solder in a compatible wire after finding that scotch 23 in a
local hardware store. My home depot didn't have it.

BTW, are you near powerlines? * Most places aren't but a few are.

Yes There are overhead power lines. Why do you ask?

Elmo, believe me.

DON'T SOLDER YOUR UNDERGROUND CONNECTIONS. THEY WILL FAIL

see my other post

On Feb 3, 8:43*am, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:
This has gone on long enough.


No no no....this is the most entertaining thread I have read today. I
love the earnestness of the OP.

Mike

On Feb 2, 10:10*pm, Elmo dcdraftwo...@Use-Author-Supplied-
Address.invalid wrote:
On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 14:55:51 -0500, mm wrote:
she said the problem is that it will eventually break.

No, it won't. *Not if it's soldered correctly. *
Have you soldered much? *

I have a propane torch, a smaller butane torch with soldering tips, and the
Weller soldering station. I'm not all that good (I always seem to melt the
solder instead of heating the wires) but I'd consider myself ok with
solder.

Of course you'll know where it is. It will be 50 feet from where you
buried the wand. *And about 100 feet from where the controller is.

I could also look for an electrical connection type box (like the ones
used with the water sprinklers) and that way it would be obvious to all,
even any new owners.

Now, if you don't have an connector on the end of the wire,
you could use heat-shrink tubing,
I think the scotch 23, silicone tape will do a much better job.

I think I'll solder in a compatible wire after finding that scotch 23 in a
local hardware store. My home depot didn't have it.

BTW, are you near powerlines? * Most places aren't but a few are.

Yes There are overhead power lines. Why do you ask?

The overhead power lines provide a voltage disturbance [shorted out by
shielding] and a magnetic disturbance, as a result of how much current
is carried [most utilities companies provide free EMF surveys] but if
those lines are low voltage, they are close together, so the magentic
fields won't be as strong as from those 115kV lines, which are
separated by more than 15 feet. If you measure more than 1 microtesla
at your cable, I would be surprised. And, you can calculate the
effect of such a field. Don't worry about it.

But as you know, make the shield a complete 'opaque' wrap, completely
enclosing all wires. Do NOT break the shield and use a single wire to
'jump the gap' for any distance.

From reading the manuals, it appears GTO has active circuitry inside
the wand. Power is supplied to it. Plus, from your comments with
them, it appears the ONLY difference in the wand/cable is length of
wire. Note they know the problems of splicing cable underground and
provide you with a 'trouble-free' long run of sealed wire. A splice
violates that seal, and believe me an underground splice can be
challenging.

You have to retrieve your wand anyway, so I recommend trying the extra
cable length. The cost of cable is small. And for this initial test,
you can simply use any shielded cable containing more than two twisted
pairs. Simply lay the cables out on the ground and test the system.
Probably will work. If so, then as you reinstall underground, use a
better cable and make sure your splice is placed inside a water-free
zone, like in an upside down plastic tub covering the splice. Just
picture how would you house such a splice if the whole system is
underwater? That pretty much covers what rain soaking will do to
you. Even so, still use amalgamizing coatings to seal the conductors,
else they will deteriorate.

Sadly, William has the BEST suggestion, but it is much less
challenging. Go to the vendor and ask them to upgrade you to a longer
cable wand for a small charge. Or, if you feel wronged, no charge.

My bet says the buried part of the system will perform well for ten
years spliced and for 25+ years with no splice.

On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 02:16:19 +0900, "Michael Kennedy"
wrote:


"Elmo" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 14:55:51 -0500, mm wrote:


she said the problem is that it will eventually break.

No, it won't. Not if it's soldered correctly.
Have you soldered much?

I have a propane torch, a smaller butane torch with soldering tips, and
the
Weller soldering station. I'm not all that good (I always seem to melt the
solder instead of heating the wires) but I'd consider myself ok with
solder.
Snip

Why not just replace the whole wire from the control box to the sensor wand?
Then theres no splices in the ground.


Considering the wand is burried, the only way that will happen is if
you raise the splice above ground!

On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 01:50:11 -0500, mm wrote:

http://www.rshughes.com/products/054...&refcp=froogle

This is a wonderful find. 12 bucks + tax/shipping for a roll.

Thanks for this great idea. I don't have the wire yet, but the plan is to
solder them and then tape them with this scotch 23 self-sealing tape.

Should work.

NOTE: Removed sci.electronics.repair due to a prior request.

On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 02:16:19 +0900, Michael Kennedy wrote:

Why not just replace the whole wire from the control box to the sensor wand?
Then theres no splices in the ground.

The sensor wand is sealed.

On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 18:55:44 -0500, PeterD wrote:

Considering the wand is burried, the only way that will happen is if
you raise the splice above ground!

Right. The only place the wand and wires comes up for air is directly at
the control box attached to the gate.