Does anyone have experience with "alternative" size dishwashers, such
as drawer models, narrow models, and so forth? I'm currently using a
trusty old Kenmore apartment-size portable that I hide in the pantry;
when it gives up the ghost, I'd like a built-in (not just for my
convenience but with an eye to home resale value eventually -- someday
when homes have resale value again, ha ha ha). I have a seriously
small kitchen, about 5 x 10, and only three base cabinets not counting
under the sink, so I want to give up as little space as possible.
I've thought about installing a single drawer under the sink, but
wonder if it would hold enough dishes to be practical (two drawers
wouldn't fit there). A narrow model might allow me to keep half of a
base cupboard. I've looked at new portables, but it has to be
apartment size, which cost nearly as much as full size and have
nowhere near the features (new ones don't even have as many features
as my old one does). I'd like to use the pantry space for something
besides dishwasher storage, too. Any suggestions? Pitfalls to
avoid?

Jo Ann

On 01/02/10 02:50 pm, Jo Ann wrote:

Does anyone have experience with "alternative" size dishwashers, such
as drawer models, narrow models, and so forth? I'm currently using a
trusty old Kenmore apartment-size portable that I hide in the pantry;
when it gives up the ghost, I'd like a built-in (not just for my
convenience but with an eye to home resale value eventually -- someday
when homes have resale value again, ha ha ha). I have a seriously
small kitchen, about 5 x 10, and only three base cabinets not counting
under the sink, so I want to give up as little space as possible.
I've thought about installing a single drawer under the sink, but
wonder if it would hold enough dishes to be practical (two drawers
wouldn't fit there). A narrow model might allow me to keep half of a
base cupboard. I've looked at new portables, but it has to be
apartment size, which cost nearly as much as full size and have
nowhere near the features (new ones don't even have as many features
as my old one does). I'd like to use the pantry space for something
besides dishwasher storage, too. Any suggestions? Pitfalls to
avoid?

The only drawer-type of which I am aware are by Fischer & Paykel. When
we needed a new DW, I did investigate these -- despite the high cost --
and found many complaints about breakdowns and poor after-sales service.

Perce

"Jo Ann" wrote in message
...
Does anyone have experience with "alternative" size dishwashers, such
as drawer models, narrow models, and so forth? I'm currently using a
trusty old Kenmore apartment-size portable that I hide in the pantry;
when it gives up the ghost, I'd like a built-in (not just for my
convenience but with an eye to home resale value eventually -- someday
when homes have resale value again, ha ha ha). I have a seriously
small kitchen, about 5 x 10, and only three base cabinets not counting
under the sink, so I want to give up as little space as possible.
I've thought about installing a single drawer under the sink, but
wonder if it would hold enough dishes to be practical (two drawers
wouldn't fit there). A narrow model might allow me to keep half of a
base cupboard. I've looked at new portables, but it has to be
apartment size, which cost nearly as much as full size and have
nowhere near the features (new ones don't even have as many features
as my old one does). I'd like to use the pantry space for something
besides dishwasher storage, too. Any suggestions? Pitfalls to
avoid?

Jo Ann

The only small 24" wide units I've ever seen are the Fisher & Paykel models.
Typical small built in dishwasher is standard height and 18" wide. I'm
pretty sure most manufacturers make at least one model. years ago I had a
Maytag 18" unit, which was great

On Jan 2, 3:40*pm, "RBM" wrote:
"Jo Ann" wrote in message

...





Does anyone have experience with "alternative" size dishwashers, such
as drawer models, narrow models, and so forth? *I'm currently using a
trusty old Kenmore apartment-size portable that I hide in the pantry;
when it gives up the ghost, I'd like a built-in (not just for my
convenience but with an eye to home resale value eventually -- someday
when homes have resale value again, ha ha ha). *I have a seriously
small kitchen, about 5 x 10, and only three base cabinets not counting
under the sink, so I want to give up as little space as possible.
I've thought about installing a single drawer under the sink, but
wonder if it would hold enough dishes to be practical (two drawers
wouldn't fit there). *A narrow model might allow me to keep half of a
base cupboard. *I've looked at new portables, but it has to be
apartment size, which cost nearly as much as full size and have
nowhere near the features (new ones don't even have as many features
as my old one does). *I'd like to use the pantry space for something
besides dishwasher storage, too. * Any suggestions? *Pitfalls to
avoid?

Jo Ann

The only small 24" wide units I've ever seen are the Fisher & Paykel models.
Typical small built in dishwasher is standard height and 18" wide. I'm
pretty sure most manufacturers make at least one model. years ago I had a
Maytag 18" unit, which was great

Wow, I googled 18-inch dishwasher and found there is a whole website
dedicated to reviewing the various models. Thanks!

Jo Ann

On Jan 3, 12:04*pm, Phisherman wrote:
On Sat, 2 Jan 2010 11:50:14 -0800 (PST), Jo Ann
wrote:





Does anyone have experience with "alternative" size dishwashers, such
as drawer models, narrow models, and so forth? *I'm currently using a
trusty old Kenmore apartment-size portable that I hide in the pantry;
when it gives up the ghost, I'd like a built-in (not just for my
convenience but with an eye to home resale value eventually -- someday
when homes have resale value again, ha ha ha). *I have a seriously
small kitchen, about 5 x 10, and only three base cabinets not counting
under the sink, so I want to give up as little space as possible.
I've thought about installing a single drawer under the sink, but
wonder if it would hold enough dishes to be practical (two drawers
wouldn't fit there). *A narrow model might allow me to keep half of a
base cupboard. *I've looked at new portables, but it has to be
apartment size, which cost nearly as much as full size and have
nowhere near the features (new ones don't even have as many features
as my old one does). *I'd like to use the pantry space for something
besides dishwasher storage, too. * Any suggestions? *Pitfalls to
avoid?

Jo Ann

Your house may hurt without a standard-size built-in DW at sale time.
The cost of new installation will likely be 3 or 4X the cost of a
portable unless you can do the plumbing and electrical work yourself.
Features mean little unless they can get your dishes cleaner faster
using less energy, if cost is a concern.

Good considerations, thanks. What does everyone think about losing a
cupboard vs. gaining a dishwasher? There's really no good compromise
here, as it would take major remodeling to change the kitchen in order
to have both. Would you rather have more storage (i.e., cupboard)
space in your kitchen or better automatic dishwashing capability?

Jo Ann

On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 07:30:10 -0800 (PST), Jo Ann
wrote:

On Jan 3, 12:04*pm, Phisherman wrote:
On Sat, 2 Jan 2010 11:50:14 -0800 (PST), Jo Ann
wrote:





Does anyone have experience with "alternative" size dishwashers, such
as drawer models, narrow models, and so forth? *I'm currently using a
trusty old Kenmore apartment-size portable that I hide in the pantry;
when it gives up the ghost, I'd like a built-in (not just for my
convenience but with an eye to home resale value eventually -- someday
when homes have resale value again, ha ha ha). *I have a seriously
small kitchen, about 5 x 10, and only three base cabinets not counting
under the sink, so I want to give up as little space as possible.
I've thought about installing a single drawer under the sink, but
wonder if it would hold enough dishes to be practical (two drawers
wouldn't fit there). *A narrow model might allow me to keep half of a
base cupboard. *I've looked at new portables, but it has to be
apartment size, which cost nearly as much as full size and have
nowhere near the features (new ones don't even have as many features
as my old one does). *I'd like to use the pantry space for something
besides dishwasher storage, too. * Any suggestions? *Pitfalls to
avoid?

Jo Ann

Your house may hurt without a standard-size built-in DW at sale time.
The cost of new installation will likely be 3 or 4X the cost of a
portable unless you can do the plumbing and electrical work yourself.
Features mean little unless they can get your dishes cleaner faster
using less energy, if cost is a concern.

Good considerations, thanks. What does everyone think about losing a
cupboard vs. gaining a dishwasher? There's really no good compromise
here, as it would take major remodeling to change the kitchen in order
to have both. Would you rather have more storage (i.e., cupboard)
space in your kitchen or better automatic dishwashing capability?


Depends on what the cabinet situation is like. If it is short to
begin with, I'd keep the cabinet. Also, think outside the box; could
the refrigerator be anywhere else in the house with a nice set of
cabinets where it is currently located?


---
A computer is] like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell

Chris Hill wrote:

Depends on what the cabinet situation is like. If it is short to
begin with, I'd keep the cabinet. Also, think outside the box; could
the refrigerator be anywhere else in the house with a nice set of
cabinets where it is currently located?

You mean outside of the kitchen? That would be nuts considering how many
trips we make to the fridge during a typical meal preparation and cleanup
with leftovers. Most efficient layout is a triangle composed of the sink,
fridge, stove with some prep space next to each. My cousin had a big
kitchen with the sink on one side and the stove and fridge on the opposite
wall, 16' away. It was very tiring to prepare a meal. The room also had
four doors. To outside, to dining room, to basement, to pantry/laundry
room.

On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 17:30:56 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

Chris Hill wrote:

Depends on what the cabinet situation is like. If it is short to
begin with, I'd keep the cabinet. Also, think outside the box; could
the refrigerator be anywhere else in the house with a nice set of
cabinets where it is currently located?

You mean outside of the kitchen? That would be nuts considering how many
trips we make to the fridge during a typical meal preparation and cleanup
with leftovers. Most efficient layout is a triangle composed of the sink,
fridge, stove with some prep space next to each. My cousin had a big
kitchen with the sink on one side and the stove and fridge on the opposite
wall, 16' away. It was very tiring to prepare a meal. The room also had
four doors. To outside, to dining room, to basement, to pantry/laundry
room.


Depends on how close to the kitchen the refrigerator could be placed.
Sounds to me like we're dealing with a sub-optimal situation here to
begin with. Last time I was in such I moved the refrigerator to the
dining room and put a portable dishwasher in its place. The main
advantage was that you didn't have to roll the dishwasher over carpet
to get it into the dining room that way. The second advantage is
that we could use the top for counter space, there was very little in
that kitchen. If the house would have been mine, I'd have knocked the
wall out and made the dining room into an eat in kitchen.

---
A computer is] like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell

On Jan 4, 10:22*pm, Chris Hill wrote:
On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 17:30:56 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:





Chris Hill wrote:

Depends on what the cabinet situation is like. *If it is short to
begin with, I'd keep the cabinet. *Also, think outside the box; could
the refrigerator be anywhere else in the house with a nice set of
cabinets where it is currently located?

You mean outside of the kitchen? *That would be nuts considering how many
trips we make to the fridge during a typical meal preparation and cleanup
with leftovers. *Most efficient layout is a triangle composed of the sink,
fridge, stove with some prep space next to each. *My cousin had a big
kitchen with the sink on one side and the stove and fridge on the opposite
wall, 16' away. *It was very tiring to prepare a meal. *The room also had
four doors. *To outside, to dining room, to basement, to pantry/laundry
room.

Depends on how close to the kitchen the refrigerator could be placed.
Sounds to me like we're dealing with a sub-optimal situation here to
begin with. *Last time I was in such I moved the refrigerator to the
dining room and put a portable dishwasher in its place. *The main
advantage was that you didn't have to roll the dishwasher over carpet
to get it into the dining room that way. * The second advantage is
that we could use the top for counter space, there was very little in
that kitchen. *If the house would have been mine, I'd have knocked the
wall out and made the dining room into an eat in kitchen.

---
A computer is] like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell

You're right that it's suboptimal no matter how it's approached.
Here's the layout: Picture long, narrow kitchen with entry doors at
both ends. At one end is the entryway from the utility room (houses
furnace, water heater, washer, and dryer). On the left wall at that
end is the doorway to the dining room; on the right, the stove. Going
through the kitchen from that end, on the right is stove, drawer stack/
narrow upper cupboard, sink, upper/lower cupboard. On the left is
dining room doorway, refrigerator, upper/lower cupboard. At the end
is another upper/lower cupboard and the door to the pantry, walk-in
closet, and bathroom (picture a small landing with pantry on one side,
closet straight ahead, and bathroom to the right). The closet is
built from the space under the living room stairs and, if the house
had a basement, is where the basement stairs would be (house is on a
stone foundation over a deep dirt-floored crawl space that looks like
it was probably excavated as an after-thought when they installed
indoor plumbing).

Currently, I use a portable apartment size dishwasher that rolls into
the walk-in closet (barely passing through the narrow door; full size
portable would not be an option here). The dishwasher can't go into
the utility room because there are two stairs down from the kitchen to
the UR; it can't go into the dining room both for aesthetics and
because there is about a 1-inch drop between the old wood floor in the
dining room and the new tile floor in kitchen (yes, I know I can fix
the drop-off, it's on the list).

The refrigerator could conceivably go into the dining room, but it's
hard to imagine that a future owner would prefer another cupboard or a
good spot for a full-size portable dishwasher rather than a
refrigerator in the kitchen. Also, keeping in mind that this is a
very traditionally styled, Victorian house, there's not really a good
way to disguise a refrigerator in the dining room without its looking
ludicrous.

Knocking down the wall between the kitchen and dining room is
something I've thought about, as is expanding the kitchen out over
what is now the side porch -- thus my earlier reference to major
remodeling. Neither of those is an option at this point.

So, what it comes down to in my mind is either sacrificing a base
cupboard for a dishwasher or continuing to use an apartment-size
portable that's stored in the closet. Given the options, I'm not
terribly unhappy with the current arrangement, but when the dishwasher
stops working and being repairable (it's OLD), I wonder which would be
better in terms of resale: A built-in dishwasher or an extra base
cupboard.

Jo Ann

On Tue, 5 Jan 2010 07:09:03 -0800 (PST), Jo Ann
wrote:
Depends on how close to the kitchen the refrigerator could be placed.
Sounds to me like we're dealing with a sub-optimal situation here to
begin with. *Last time I was in such I moved the refrigerator to the
dining room and put a portable dishwasher in its place. *The main
advantage was that you didn't have to roll the dishwasher over carpet
to get it into the dining room that way. * The second advantage is
that we could use the top for counter space, there was very little in
that kitchen. *If the house would have been mine, I'd have knocked the
wall out and made the dining room into an eat in kitchen.

---
A computer is] like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell

You're right that it's suboptimal no matter how it's approached.
Here's the layout: Picture long, narrow kitchen with entry doors at
both ends. At one end is the entryway from the utility room (houses
furnace, water heater, washer, and dryer). On the left wall at that
end is the doorway to the dining room; on the right, the stove. Going
through the kitchen from that end, on the right is stove, drawer stack/
narrow upper cupboard, sink, upper/lower cupboard. On the left is
dining room doorway, refrigerator, upper/lower cupboard. At the end
is another upper/lower cupboard and the door to the pantry, walk-in
closet, and bathroom (picture a small landing with pantry on one side,
closet straight ahead, and bathroom to the right). The closet is
built from the space under the living room stairs and, if the house
had a basement, is where the basement stairs would be (house is on a
stone foundation over a deep dirt-floored crawl space that looks like
it was probably excavated as an after-thought when they installed
indoor plumbing).


How many bedrooms? I guess for a single person, that kitchen might be
adequate. For a family, it would reduce the value no matter how you
re-arranged it. If I were in that position, I'd either leave it alone
and suffer, or see if the wall to the dining room could be disposed
of. It would seem to me a decent-sized kitchen would be more valuable
than a dining room with a kitchen only fit for a submariner.
---
A computer is] like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell

Jo Ann wrote in
:

On Jan 4, 10:22*pm, Chris Hill wrote:
On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 17:30:56 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:





Chris Hill wrote:

Depends on what the cabinet situation is like. *If it is short to
begin with, I'd keep the cabinet. *Also, think outside the box;
coul
d
the refrigerator be anywhere else in the house with a nice set of
cabinets where it is currently located?

You mean outside of the kitchen? *That would be nuts considering how
m
any
trips we make to the fridge during a typical meal preparation and
cleanu
p
with leftovers. *Most efficient layout is a triangle composed of the
s
ink,
fridge, stove with some prep space next to each. *My cousin had a
big kitchen with the sink on one side and the stove and fridge on
the opposi
te
wall, 16' away. *It was very tiring to prepare a meal. *The room als
o had
four doors. *To outside, to dining room, to basement, to
pantry/laundr
y
room.

Depends on how close to the kitchen the refrigerator could be placed.
Sounds to me like we're dealing with a sub-optimal situation here to
begin with. *Last time I was in such I moved the refrigerator to the
dining room and put a portable dishwasher in its place. *The main
advantage was that you didn't have to roll the dishwasher over carpet
to get it into the dining room that way. * The second advantage is
that we could use the top for counter space, there was very little in
that kitchen. *If the house would have been mine, I'd have knocked
the wall out and made the dining room into an eat in kitchen.

---
A computer is] like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no
merc
y. -- Joseph Campbell

You're right that it's suboptimal no matter how it's approached.
Here's the layout: Picture long, narrow kitchen with entry doors at
both ends. At one end is the entryway from the utility room (houses
furnace, water heater, washer, and dryer). On the left wall at that
end is the doorway to the dining room; on the right, the stove. Going
through the kitchen from that end, on the right is stove, drawer
stack/ narrow upper cupboard, sink, upper/lower cupboard. On the left
is dining room doorway, refrigerator, upper/lower cupboard. At the
end is another upper/lower cupboard and the door to the pantry,
walk-in closet, and bathroom (picture a small landing with pantry on
one side, closet straight ahead, and bathroom to the right). The
closet is built from the space under the living room stairs and, if
the house had a basement, is where the basement stairs would be (house
is on a stone foundation over a deep dirt-floored crawl space that
looks like it was probably excavated as an after-thought when they
installed indoor plumbing).

Currently, I use a portable apartment size dishwasher that rolls into
the walk-in closet (barely passing through the narrow door; full size
portable would not be an option here). The dishwasher can't go into
the utility room because there are two stairs down from the kitchen to
the UR; it can't go into the dining room both for aesthetics and
because there is about a 1-inch drop between the old wood floor in the
dining room and the new tile floor in kitchen (yes, I know I can fix
the drop-off, it's on the list).

The refrigerator could conceivably go into the dining room, but it's
hard to imagine that a future owner would prefer another cupboard or a
good spot for a full-size portable dishwasher rather than a
refrigerator in the kitchen. Also, keeping in mind that this is a
very traditionally styled, Victorian house, there's not really a good
way to disguise a refrigerator in the dining room without its looking
ludicrous.

Knocking down the wall between the kitchen and dining room is
something I've thought about, as is expanding the kitchen out over
what is now the side porch -- thus my earlier reference to major
remodeling. Neither of those is an option at this point.

So, what it comes down to in my mind is either sacrificing a base
cupboard for a dishwasher or continuing to use an apartment-size
portable that's stored in the closet. Given the options, I'm not
terribly unhappy with the current arrangement, but when the dishwasher
stops working and being repairable (it's OLD), I wonder which would be
better in terms of resale: A built-in dishwasher or an extra base
cupboard.

Jo Ann

Your place sounds really neat although I don't envy your issues & tasks.
As I said previously, my bud has an old house like yours including stone
foundation. Stall is attached to the side of the kitchen and down a few
steps. Has a split door. Horse head often in kitchen. Very social. It's
just a way of life I think is cool.

No digital camera? Might help with some of your posts.

On Jan 5, 1:53*pm, Red Green wrote:
Jo Ann wrote :





On Jan 4, 10:22 pm, Chris Hill wrote:
On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 17:30:56 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

Chris Hill wrote:

Depends on what the cabinet situation is like. If it is short to
begin with, I'd keep the cabinet. Also, think outside the box;
coul
d
the refrigerator be anywhere else in the house with a nice set of
cabinets where it is currently located?

You mean outside of the kitchen? That would be nuts considering how
m
any
trips we make to the fridge during a typical meal preparation and
cleanu
p
with leftovers. Most efficient layout is a triangle composed of the
s
ink,
fridge, stove with some prep space next to each. My cousin had a
big kitchen with the sink on one side and the stove and fridge on
the opposi
te
wall, 16' away. It was very tiring to prepare a meal. The room als
o had
four doors. To outside, to dining room, to basement, to
pantry/laundr
y
room.

Depends on how close to the kitchen the refrigerator could be placed.
Sounds to me like we're dealing with a sub-optimal situation here to
begin with. Last time I was in such I moved the refrigerator to the
dining room and put a portable dishwasher in its place. The main
advantage was that you didn't have to roll the dishwasher over carpet
to get it into the dining room that way. The second advantage is
that we could use the top for counter space, there was very little in
that kitchen. If the house would have been mine, I'd have knocked
the wall out and made the dining room into an eat in kitchen.

---
A computer is] like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no
merc
y. -- Joseph Campbell

You're right that it's suboptimal no matter how it's approached.
Here's the layout: *Picture long, narrow kitchen with entry doors at
both ends. *At one end is the entryway from the utility room (houses
furnace, water heater, washer, and dryer). *On the left wall at that
end is the doorway to the dining room; on the right, the stove. *Going
through the kitchen from that end, on the right is stove, drawer
stack/ narrow upper cupboard, sink, upper/lower cupboard. *On the left
is dining room doorway, refrigerator, upper/lower cupboard. *At the
end is another upper/lower cupboard and the door to the pantry,
walk-in closet, and bathroom (picture a small landing with pantry on
one side, closet straight ahead, and bathroom to the right). * The
closet is built from the space under the living room stairs and, if
the house had a basement, is where the basement stairs would be (house
is on a stone foundation over a deep dirt-floored crawl space that
looks like it was probably excavated as an after-thought when they
installed indoor plumbing).

Currently, I use a portable apartment size dishwasher that rolls into
the walk-in closet (barely passing through the narrow door; full size
portable would not be an option here). *The dishwasher can't go into
the utility room because there are two stairs down from the kitchen to
the UR; it can't go into the dining room both for aesthetics and
because there is about a 1-inch drop between the old wood floor in the
dining room and the new tile floor in kitchen (yes, I know I can fix
the drop-off, it's on the list).

The refrigerator could conceivably go into the dining room, but it's
hard to imagine that a future owner would prefer another cupboard or a
good spot for a full-size portable dishwasher rather than a
refrigerator in the kitchen. *Also, keeping in mind that this is a
very traditionally styled, Victorian house, there's not really a good
way to disguise a refrigerator in the dining room without its looking
ludicrous.

Knocking down the wall between the kitchen and dining room is
something I've thought about, as is expanding the kitchen out over
what is now the side porch -- thus my earlier reference to major
remodeling. *Neither of those is an option at this point.

So, what it comes down to in my mind is either sacrificing a base
cupboard for a dishwasher or continuing to use an apartment-size
portable that's stored in the closet. *Given the options, I'm not
terribly unhappy with the current arrangement, but when the dishwasher
stops working and being repairable (it's OLD), I wonder which would be
better in terms of resale: *A built-in dishwasher or an extra base
cupboard.

Jo Ann

Your place sounds really neat although I don't envy your issues & tasks.
As I said previously, my bud has an old house like yours including stone
foundation. Stall is attached to the side of the kitchen and down a few
steps. Has a split door. Horse head often in kitchen. Very social. It's
just a way of life I think is cool.

No digital camera? Might help with some of your posts.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This doesn't help I know but just a comment. When we built this house
(1970) following the plan somewhat loosely, as we went along; having
more that adequate lot width, we added two feet to the kitchen end.
Thus acquiring another 8 foot counter, top, lower and upper cupboards
and and a place fort the fridge at end of it next to the back door.
What a BIG difference that made!
We also added two feet on the other end of the house, thus enlarging
three of the bedrooms and increasing two built in closets to double.
The total cost increase was two more roof trusses and a certain amount
of extra 8 foot basement wall form and pouring and eight feet of
additional outside framing etc. And of course the roof is four feet
longer than it would have been!
Both additions were well worth while.

On Jan 5, 1:10*pm, terry wrote:
On Jan 5, 1:53*pm, Red Green wrote:





Jo Ann wrote :

On Jan 4, 10:22 pm, Chris Hill wrote:
On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 17:30:56 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

Chris Hill wrote:

Depends on what the cabinet situation is like. If it is short to
begin with, I'd keep the cabinet. Also, think outside the box;
coul
d
the refrigerator be anywhere else in the house with a nice set of
cabinets where it is currently located?

You mean outside of the kitchen? That would be nuts considering how
m
any
trips we make to the fridge during a typical meal preparation and
cleanu
p
with leftovers. Most efficient layout is a triangle composed of the
s
ink,
fridge, stove with some prep space next to each. My cousin had a
big kitchen with the sink on one side and the stove and fridge on
the opposi
te
wall, 16' away. It was very tiring to prepare a meal. The room als
o had
four doors. To outside, to dining room, to basement, to
pantry/laundr
y
room.

Depends on how close to the kitchen the refrigerator could be placed..
Sounds to me like we're dealing with a sub-optimal situation here to
begin with. Last time I was in such I moved the refrigerator to the
dining room and put a portable dishwasher in its place. The main
advantage was that you didn't have to roll the dishwasher over carpet
to get it into the dining room that way. The second advantage is
that we could use the top for counter space, there was very little in
that kitchen. If the house would have been mine, I'd have knocked
the wall out and made the dining room into an eat in kitchen.

---
A computer is] like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no
merc
y. -- Joseph Campbell

You're right that it's suboptimal no matter how it's approached.
Here's the layout: *Picture long, narrow kitchen with entry doors at
both ends. *At one end is the entryway from the utility room (houses
furnace, water heater, washer, and dryer). *On the left wall at that
end is the doorway to the dining room; on the right, the stove. *Going
through the kitchen from that end, on the right is stove, drawer
stack/ narrow upper cupboard, sink, upper/lower cupboard. *On the left
is dining room doorway, refrigerator, upper/lower cupboard. *At the
end is another upper/lower cupboard and the door to the pantry,
walk-in closet, and bathroom (picture a small landing with pantry on
one side, closet straight ahead, and bathroom to the right). * The
closet is built from the space under the living room stairs and, if
the house had a basement, is where the basement stairs would be (house
is on a stone foundation over a deep dirt-floored crawl space that
looks like it was probably excavated as an after-thought when they
installed indoor plumbing).

Currently, I use a portable apartment size dishwasher that rolls into
the walk-in closet (barely passing through the narrow door; full size
portable would not be an option here). *The dishwasher can't go into
the utility room because there are two stairs down from the kitchen to
the UR; it can't go into the dining room both for aesthetics and
because there is about a 1-inch drop between the old wood floor in the
dining room and the new tile floor in kitchen (yes, I know I can fix
the drop-off, it's on the list).

The refrigerator could conceivably go into the dining room, but it's
hard to imagine that a future owner would prefer another cupboard or a
good spot for a full-size portable dishwasher rather than a
refrigerator in the kitchen. *Also, keeping in mind that this is a
very traditionally styled, Victorian house, there's not really a good
way to disguise a refrigerator in the dining room without its looking
ludicrous.

Knocking down the wall between the kitchen and dining room is
something I've thought about, as is expanding the kitchen out over
what is now the side porch -- thus my earlier reference to major
remodeling. *Neither of those is an option at this point.

So, what it comes down to in my mind is either sacrificing a base
cupboard for a dishwasher or continuing to use an apartment-size
portable that's stored in the closet. *Given the options, I'm not
terribly unhappy with the current arrangement, but when the dishwasher
stops working and being repairable (it's OLD), I wonder which would be
better in terms of resale: *A built-in dishwasher or an extra base
cupboard.

Jo Ann

Your place sounds really neat although I don't envy your issues & tasks..
As I said previously, my bud has an old house like yours including stone
foundation. Stall is attached to the side of the kitchen and down a few
steps. Has a split door. Horse head often in kitchen. Very social. It's
just a way of life I think is cool.

No digital camera? Might help with some of your posts.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This doesn't help I know but just a comment. When we built this house
(1970) following the plan somewhat loosely, as we went along; having
more that adequate lot width, we added two feet to the kitchen end.
Thus acquiring another 8 foot counter, top, lower and upper cupboards
and and a place fort the fridge at end of it next to the back door.
What a BIG difference that made!
We also added two feet on the other end of the house, thus enlarging
three of the bedrooms and *increasing two built in closets to double.
The total cost increase was two more roof trusses and a certain amount
of extra 8 foot basement wall form and pouring and eight feet of
additional outside framing etc. And of course the roof is four feet
longer than it would have been!
Both additions were well worth while.

VERY interesting to hear that two feet made that much difference for
you. I could easily steal two feet or more by going out over the side
porch, and still have a nice porch left. Well, not really "easily,"
given the construction that would be needed, but doable. That would
be on the sink side of the kitchen, but I'm sure my plumber would be
so happy to have a project from me that doesn't involve my crawl space
that he'd be happy to work on it, LOL!

Jo Ann

On Jan 5, 11:53*am, Red Green wrote:
Jo Ann wrote :





On Jan 4, 10:22 pm, Chris Hill wrote:
On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 17:30:56 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

Chris Hill wrote:

Depends on what the cabinet situation is like. If it is short to
begin with, I'd keep the cabinet. Also, think outside the box;
coul
d
the refrigerator be anywhere else in the house with a nice set of
cabinets where it is currently located?

You mean outside of the kitchen? That would be nuts considering how
m
any
trips we make to the fridge during a typical meal preparation and
cleanu
p
with leftovers. Most efficient layout is a triangle composed of the
s
ink,
fridge, stove with some prep space next to each. My cousin had a
big kitchen with the sink on one side and the stove and fridge on
the opposi
te
wall, 16' away. It was very tiring to prepare a meal. The room als
o had
four doors. To outside, to dining room, to basement, to
pantry/laundr
y
room.

Depends on how close to the kitchen the refrigerator could be placed.
Sounds to me like we're dealing with a sub-optimal situation here to
begin with. Last time I was in such I moved the refrigerator to the
dining room and put a portable dishwasher in its place. The main
advantage was that you didn't have to roll the dishwasher over carpet
to get it into the dining room that way. The second advantage is
that we could use the top for counter space, there was very little in
that kitchen. If the house would have been mine, I'd have knocked
the wall out and made the dining room into an eat in kitchen.

---
A computer is] like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no
merc
y. -- Joseph Campbell

You're right that it's suboptimal no matter how it's approached.
Here's the layout: *Picture long, narrow kitchen with entry doors at
both ends. *At one end is the entryway from the utility room (houses
furnace, water heater, washer, and dryer). *On the left wall at that
end is the doorway to the dining room; on the right, the stove. *Going
through the kitchen from that end, on the right is stove, drawer
stack/ narrow upper cupboard, sink, upper/lower cupboard. *On the left
is dining room doorway, refrigerator, upper/lower cupboard. *At the
end is another upper/lower cupboard and the door to the pantry,
walk-in closet, and bathroom (picture a small landing with pantry on
one side, closet straight ahead, and bathroom to the right). * The
closet is built from the space under the living room stairs and, if
the house had a basement, is where the basement stairs would be (house
is on a stone foundation over a deep dirt-floored crawl space that
looks like it was probably excavated as an after-thought when they
installed indoor plumbing).

Currently, I use a portable apartment size dishwasher that rolls into
the walk-in closet (barely passing through the narrow door; full size
portable would not be an option here). *The dishwasher can't go into
the utility room because there are two stairs down from the kitchen to
the UR; it can't go into the dining room both for aesthetics and
because there is about a 1-inch drop between the old wood floor in the
dining room and the new tile floor in kitchen (yes, I know I can fix
the drop-off, it's on the list).

The refrigerator could conceivably go into the dining room, but it's
hard to imagine that a future owner would prefer another cupboard or a
good spot for a full-size portable dishwasher rather than a
refrigerator in the kitchen. *Also, keeping in mind that this is a
very traditionally styled, Victorian house, there's not really a good
way to disguise a refrigerator in the dining room without its looking
ludicrous.

Knocking down the wall between the kitchen and dining room is
something I've thought about, as is expanding the kitchen out over
what is now the side porch -- thus my earlier reference to major
remodeling. *Neither of those is an option at this point.

So, what it comes down to in my mind is either sacrificing a base
cupboard for a dishwasher or continuing to use an apartment-size
portable that's stored in the closet. *Given the options, I'm not
terribly unhappy with the current arrangement, but when the dishwasher
stops working and being repairable (it's OLD), I wonder which would be
better in terms of resale: *A built-in dishwasher or an extra base
cupboard.

Jo Ann

Your place sounds really neat although I don't envy your issues & tasks.
As I said previously, my bud has an old house like yours including stone
foundation. Stall is attached to the side of the kitchen and down a few
steps. Has a split door. Horse head often in kitchen. Very social. It's
just a way of life I think is cool.

No digital camera? Might help with some of your posts.

Split door with the horse hanging out does sound like a cool way of
life! It makes me wonder if this house might have had that kind of
arrangement at one point, where the utility room is now. The UR is
clearly an add-on, probably prompted by wanting to install central
heating and hot water. I wonder if they sacrificed the horse's
quarters to get it?

You're right, I need to get it together with my camera to help
illustrate some of this. Since I haven't seen any pix here, I assume
we can't post to the list but just include links to picture-posting
sites?

Jo Ann

Jo Ann wrote in
:

On Jan 5, 11:53*am, Red Green wrote:
Jo Ann wrote
innews:3d9f7fc8-25d3-40c2-875c-5710f51102
:





On Jan 4, 10:22 pm, Chris Hill wrote:
On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 17:30:56 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

Chris Hill wrote:

Depends on what the cabinet situation is like. If it is short
to begin with, I'd keep the cabinet. Also, think outside the
box; coul
d
the refrigerator be anywhere else in the house with a nice set
of cabinets where it is currently located?

You mean outside of the kitchen? That would be nuts considering
how m
any
trips we make to the fridge during a typical meal preparation and
cleanu
p
with leftovers. Most efficient layout is a triangle composed of
the s
ink,
fridge, stove with some prep space next to each. My cousin had a
big kitchen with the sink on one side and the stove and fridge on
the opposi
te
wall, 16' away. It was very tiring to prepare a meal. The room
als
o had
four doors. To outside, to dining room, to basement, to
pantry/laundr
y
room.

Depends on how close to the kitchen the refrigerator could be
placed. Sounds to me like we're dealing with a sub-optimal
situation here to begin with. Last time I was in such I moved the
refrigerator to the dining room and put a portable dishwasher in
its place. The main advantage was that you didn't have to roll the
dishwasher over carpet to get it into the dining room that way.
The second advantage is that we could use the top for counter
space, there was very little in that kitchen. If the house would
have been mine, I'd have knocked the wall out and made the dining
room into an eat in kitchen.

---
A computer is] like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and
no merc
y. -- Joseph Campbell

You're right that it's suboptimal no matter how it's approached.
Here's the layout: *Picture long, narrow kitchen with entry doors
at both ends. *At one end is the entryway from the utility room
(houses furnace, water heater, washer, and dryer). *On the left
wall at that end is the doorway to the dining room; on the right,
the stove. *Goin
g
through the kitchen from that end, on the right is stove, drawer
stack/ narrow upper cupboard, sink, upper/lower cupboard. *On the
lef
t
is dining room doorway, refrigerator, upper/lower cupboard. *At the
end is another upper/lower cupboard and the door to the pantry,
walk-in closet, and bathroom (picture a small landing with pantry
on one side, closet straight ahead, and bathroom to the right). *
The closet is built from the space under the living room stairs
and, if the house had a basement, is where the basement stairs
would be (house is on a stone foundation over a deep dirt-floored
crawl space that looks like it was probably excavated as an
after-thought when they installed indoor plumbing).

Currently, I use a portable apartment size dishwasher that rolls
into the walk-in closet (barely passing through the narrow door;
full size portable would not be an option here). *The dishwasher
can't go into the utility room because there are two stairs down
from the kitchen to the UR; it can't go into the dining room both
for aesthetics and because there is about a 1-inch drop between the
old wood floor in the dining room and the new tile floor in kitchen
(yes, I know I can fix the drop-off, it's on the list).

The refrigerator could conceivably go into the dining room, but
it's hard to imagine that a future owner would prefer another
cupboard or a good spot for a full-size portable dishwasher rather
than a refrigerator in the kitchen. *Also, keeping in mind that
this is a very traditionally styled, Victorian house, there's not
really a good way to disguise a refrigerator in the dining room
without its looking ludicrous.

Knocking down the wall between the kitchen and dining room is
something I've thought about, as is expanding the kitchen out over
what is now the side porch -- thus my earlier reference to major
remodeling. *Neither of those is an option at this point.

So, what it comes down to in my mind is either sacrificing a base
cupboard for a dishwasher or continuing to use an apartment-size
portable that's stored in the closet. *Given the options, I'm not
terribly unhappy with the current arrangement, but when the
dishwasher stops working and being repairable (it's OLD), I wonder
which would be better in terms of resale: *A built-in dishwasher or
an extra base cupboard.

Jo Ann

Your place sounds really neat although I don't envy your issues &
tasks. As I said previously, my bud has an old house like yours
including stone foundation. Stall is attached to the side of the
kitchen and down a few steps. Has a split door. Horse head often in
kitchen. Very social. It's just a way of life I think is cool.

No digital camera? Might help with some of your posts.

Split door with the horse hanging out does sound like a cool way of
life! It makes me wonder if this house might have had that kind of
arrangement at one point, where the utility room is now. The UR is
clearly an add-on, probably prompted by wanting to install central
heating and hot water. I wonder if they sacrificed the horse's
quarters to get it?

Well, his unit is in the stall...installed up like 10ft! Actually
permitted, professionally installed and inspected.


You're right, I need to get it together with my camera to help
illustrate some of this. Since I haven't seen any pix here, I assume
we can't post to the list but just include links to picture-posting
sites?

Exactly


Jo Ann

On Jan 5, 10:28*am, Chris Hill wrote:
On Tue, 5 Jan 2010 07:09:03 -0800 (PST), Jo Ann
wrote:





Depends on how close to the kitchen the refrigerator could be placed.
Sounds to me like we're dealing with a sub-optimal situation here to
begin with. Last time I was in such I moved the refrigerator to the
dining room and put a portable dishwasher in its place. The main
advantage was that you didn't have to roll the dishwasher over carpet
to get it into the dining room that way. The second advantage is
that we could use the top for counter space, there was very little in
that kitchen. If the house would have been mine, I'd have knocked the
wall out and made the dining room into an eat in kitchen.

---
A computer is] like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell

You're right that it's suboptimal no matter how it's approached.
Here's the layout: *Picture long, narrow kitchen with entry doors at
both ends. *At one end is the entryway from the utility room (houses
furnace, water heater, washer, and dryer). *On the left wall at that
end is the doorway to the dining room; on the right, the stove. *Going
through the kitchen from that end, on the right is stove, drawer stack/
narrow upper cupboard, sink, upper/lower cupboard. *On the left is
dining room doorway, refrigerator, upper/lower cupboard. *At the end
is another upper/lower cupboard and the door to the pantry, walk-in
closet, and bathroom (picture a small landing with pantry on one side,
closet straight ahead, and bathroom to the right). * The closet is
built from the space under the living room stairs and, if the house
had a basement, is where the basement stairs would be (house is on a
stone foundation over a deep dirt-floored crawl space that looks like
it was probably excavated as an after-thought when they installed
indoor plumbing).

How many bedrooms? *I guess for a single person, that kitchen might be
adequate. *For a family, it would reduce the value no matter how you
re-arranged it. *If I were in that position, I'd either leave it alone
and suffer, or see if the wall to the dining room could be disposed
of. *It would seem to me a decent-sized kitchen would be more valuable
than a dining room with a kitchen only fit for a submariner.
---
A computer is] like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell

Technically, four bedrooms. The one downstairs is very small and has
no closet. I use it for a home office. Of the three upstairs, one is
very small and has no closet, and I've converted it to a walk-in
closet and storage area (with easily undone closet kits in case
someone wants to change it back to a bedroom someday). The other two
have closets, which are rare and welcome in this type of house; the
builder made smart use of a little bit of over-stairs space. The
master bedroom takes up one whole side of the upstairs space, and the
other side is split into the two small bedrooms.

If I were going to take on a single big remodeling project, it would
be to convert part of the master bedroom into an upstairs bathroom. I
think having only one small bathroom, which is downstairs, is at least
as big a drawback as the submarine kitchen, probably more so. This is
actually on my to-do list, right after "finish plumbing replacement"
and "new furnace" (every fall my HVAC guy shakes his head when he
tunes up my 40-year-old furnace and makes dire predictions about the
so-far unexpanded crack in the heat exchanger. Every year he decides
he doesn't have to red-tag it "quite yet." Yes, I have CO monitors
and alarms in almost every room.)

My first choice for expanding the kitchen would be to move the
exterior wall out over the side screen-porch (porch is at a lower
elevation than the kitchen, matching the two-steps-down level of the
utility room). It would be a much bigger remodel, but would be truer
to the house's design (not turning the kitchen/dining into a "great
room") and would still leave a screen-porch, albeit a small one. The
porch walks out onto a big deck, so making the porch smaller isn't a
deal-breaker; I just need a little space to sit out on hot evenings
during skeeter season. The space below the kitchen (between the
kitchen floor and the porch floor) in this imagined expansion would
also create some much-needed storage space. And then, the second time
I hit the lottery, I'll turn the deck into a 3-season room.

Jo Ann

"Jo Ann" wrote in message
...
On Jan 5, 10:28 am, Chris Hill wrote:
On Tue, 5 Jan 2010 07:09:03 -0800 (PST), Jo Ann
wrote:





Depends on how close to the kitchen the refrigerator could be placed.
Sounds to me like we're dealing with a sub-optimal situation here to
begin with. Last time I was in such I moved the refrigerator to the
dining room and put a portable dishwasher in its place. The main
advantage was that you didn't have to roll the dishwasher over carpet
to get it into the dining room that way. The second advantage is
that we could use the top for counter space, there was very little in
that kitchen. If the house would have been mine, I'd have knocked the
wall out and made the dining room into an eat in kitchen.

---
A computer is] like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no
mercy. -- Joseph Campbell

You're right that it's suboptimal no matter how it's approached.
Here's the layout: Picture long, narrow kitchen with entry doors at
both ends. At one end is the entryway from the utility room (houses
furnace, water heater, washer, and dryer). On the left wall at that
end is the doorway to the dining room; on the right, the stove. Going
through the kitchen from that end, on the right is stove, drawer stack/
narrow upper cupboard, sink, upper/lower cupboard. On the left is
dining room doorway, refrigerator, upper/lower cupboard. At the end
is another upper/lower cupboard and the door to the pantry, walk-in
closet, and bathroom (picture a small landing with pantry on one side,
closet straight ahead, and bathroom to the right). The closet is
built from the space under the living room stairs and, if the house
had a basement, is where the basement stairs would be (house is on a
stone foundation over a deep dirt-floored crawl space that looks like
it was probably excavated as an after-thought when they installed
indoor plumbing).

How many bedrooms? I guess for a single person, that kitchen might be
adequate. For a family, it would reduce the value no matter how you
re-arranged it. If I were in that position, I'd either leave it alone
and suffer, or see if the wall to the dining room could be disposed
of. It would seem to me a decent-sized kitchen would be more valuable
than a dining room with a kitchen only fit for a submariner.
---
A computer is] like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no
mercy. -- Joseph Campbell

Technically, four bedrooms. The one downstairs is very small and has
no closet. I use it for a home office. Of the three upstairs, one is
very small and has no closet, and I've converted it to a walk-in
closet and storage area (with easily undone closet kits in case
someone wants to change it back to a bedroom someday). The other two
have closets, which are rare and welcome in this type of house; the
builder made smart use of a little bit of over-stairs space. The
master bedroom takes up one whole side of the upstairs space, and the
other side is split into the two small bedrooms.

If I were going to take on a single big remodeling project, it would
be to convert part of the master bedroom into an upstairs bathroom. I
think having only one small bathroom, which is downstairs, is at least
as big a drawback as the submarine kitchen, probably more so. This is
actually on my to-do list, right after "finish plumbing replacement"
and "new furnace" (every fall my HVAC guy shakes his head when he
tunes up my 40-year-old furnace and makes dire predictions about the
so-far unexpanded crack in the heat exchanger. Every year he decides
he doesn't have to red-tag it "quite yet." Yes, I have CO monitors
and alarms in almost every room.)

My first choice for expanding the kitchen would be to move the
exterior wall out over the side screen-porch (porch is at a lower
elevation than the kitchen, matching the two-steps-down level of the
utility room). It would be a much bigger remodel, but would be truer
to the house's design (not turning the kitchen/dining into a "great
room") and would still leave a screen-porch, albeit a small one. The
porch walks out onto a big deck, so making the porch smaller isn't a
deal-breaker; I just need a little space to sit out on hot evenings
during skeeter season. The space below the kitchen (between the
kitchen floor and the porch floor) in this imagined expansion would
also create some much-needed storage space. And then, the second time
I hit the lottery, I'll turn the deck into a 3-season room.

Jo Ann
===
wouldn't it just be easier to move, or raze it and start over?

On Jan 5, 3:45*pm, Jo Ann wrote:
On Jan 5, 10:28*am, Chris Hill wrote:





On Tue, 5 Jan 2010 07:09:03 -0800 (PST), Jo Ann
wrote:

Depends on how close to the kitchen the refrigerator could be placed..
Sounds to me like we're dealing with a sub-optimal situation here to
begin with. Last time I was in such I moved the refrigerator to the
dining room and put a portable dishwasher in its place. The main
advantage was that you didn't have to roll the dishwasher over carpet
to get it into the dining room that way. The second advantage is
that we could use the top for counter space, there was very little in
that kitchen. If the house would have been mine, I'd have knocked the
wall out and made the dining room into an eat in kitchen.

---
A computer is] like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell

You're right that it's suboptimal no matter how it's approached.
Here's the layout: *Picture long, narrow kitchen with entry doors at
both ends. *At one end is the entryway from the utility room (houses
furnace, water heater, washer, and dryer). *On the left wall at that
end is the doorway to the dining room; on the right, the stove. *Going
through the kitchen from that end, on the right is stove, drawer stack/
narrow upper cupboard, sink, upper/lower cupboard. *On the left is
dining room doorway, refrigerator, upper/lower cupboard. *At the end
is another upper/lower cupboard and the door to the pantry, walk-in
closet, and bathroom (picture a small landing with pantry on one side,
closet straight ahead, and bathroom to the right). * The closet is
built from the space under the living room stairs and, if the house
had a basement, is where the basement stairs would be (house is on a
stone foundation over a deep dirt-floored crawl space that looks like
it was probably excavated as an after-thought when they installed
indoor plumbing).

How many bedrooms? *I guess for a single person, that kitchen might be
adequate. *For a family, it would reduce the value no matter how you
re-arranged it. *If I were in that position, I'd either leave it alone
and suffer, or see if the wall to the dining room could be disposed
of. *It would seem to me a decent-sized kitchen would be more valuable
than a dining room with a kitchen only fit for a submariner.
---
A computer is] like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell

Technically, four bedrooms. *The one downstairs is very small and has
no closet. *I use it for a home office. *Of the three upstairs, one is
very small and has no closet, and I've converted it to a walk-in
closet and storage area (with easily undone closet kits in case
someone wants to change it back to a bedroom someday). *The other two
have closets, which are rare and welcome in this type of house; the
builder made smart use of a little bit of over-stairs space. *The
master bedroom takes up one whole side of the upstairs space, and the
other side is split into the two small bedrooms.

If I were going to take on a single big remodeling project, it would
be to convert part of the master bedroom into an upstairs bathroom. *I
think having only one small bathroom, which is downstairs, is at least
as big a drawback as the submarine kitchen, probably more so. *This is
actually on my to-do list, right after "finish plumbing replacement"
and "new furnace" (every fall my HVAC guy shakes his head when he
tunes up my 40-year-old furnace and makes dire predictions about the
so-far unexpanded crack in the heat exchanger. *Every year he decides
he doesn't have to red-tag it "quite yet." *Yes, I have CO monitors
and alarms in almost every room.)

My first choice for expanding the kitchen would be to move the
exterior wall out over the side screen-porch (porch is at a lower
elevation than the kitchen, matching the two-steps-down level of the
utility room). *It would be a much bigger remodel, but would be truer
to the house's design (not turning the kitchen/dining into a "great
room") and would still leave a screen-porch, albeit a small one. *The
porch walks out onto a big deck, so making the porch smaller isn't a
deal-breaker; I just need a little space to sit out on hot evenings
during skeeter season. *The space below the kitchen (between the
kitchen floor and the porch floor) in this imagined expansion would
also create some much-needed storage space. *And then, the second time
I hit the lottery, I'll turn the deck into a 3-season room.

Jo Ann- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

holy hell, are you living in my house? Seriously, it's kinda creepy
how well you described where i live.

nate

On Jan 5, 3:38*pm, N8N wrote:
On Jan 5, 3:45*pm, Jo Ann wrote:





On Jan 5, 10:28*am, Chris Hill wrote:

On Tue, 5 Jan 2010 07:09:03 -0800 (PST), Jo Ann
wrote:

Depends on how close to the kitchen the refrigerator could be placed.
Sounds to me like we're dealing with a sub-optimal situation here to
begin with. Last time I was in such I moved the refrigerator to the
dining room and put a portable dishwasher in its place. The main
advantage was that you didn't have to roll the dishwasher over carpet
to get it into the dining room that way. The second advantage is
that we could use the top for counter space, there was very little in
that kitchen. If the house would have been mine, I'd have knocked the
wall out and made the dining room into an eat in kitchen.

---
A computer is] like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell

You're right that it's suboptimal no matter how it's approached.
Here's the layout: *Picture long, narrow kitchen with entry doors at
both ends. *At one end is the entryway from the utility room (houses
furnace, water heater, washer, and dryer). *On the left wall at that
end is the doorway to the dining room; on the right, the stove. *Going
through the kitchen from that end, on the right is stove, drawer stack/
narrow upper cupboard, sink, upper/lower cupboard. *On the left is
dining room doorway, refrigerator, upper/lower cupboard. *At the end
is another upper/lower cupboard and the door to the pantry, walk-in
closet, and bathroom (picture a small landing with pantry on one side,
closet straight ahead, and bathroom to the right). * The closet is
built from the space under the living room stairs and, if the house
had a basement, is where the basement stairs would be (house is on a
stone foundation over a deep dirt-floored crawl space that looks like
it was probably excavated as an after-thought when they installed
indoor plumbing).

How many bedrooms? *I guess for a single person, that kitchen might be
adequate. *For a family, it would reduce the value no matter how you
re-arranged it. *If I were in that position, I'd either leave it alone
and suffer, or see if the wall to the dining room could be disposed
of. *It would seem to me a decent-sized kitchen would be more valuable
than a dining room with a kitchen only fit for a submariner.
---
A computer is] like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell

Technically, four bedrooms. *The one downstairs is very small and has
no closet. *I use it for a home office. *Of the three upstairs, one is
very small and has no closet, and I've converted it to a walk-in
closet and storage area (with easily undone closet kits in case
someone wants to change it back to a bedroom someday). *The other two
have closets, which are rare and welcome in this type of house; the
builder made smart use of a little bit of over-stairs space. *The
master bedroom takes up one whole side of the upstairs space, and the
other side is split into the two small bedrooms.

If I were going to take on a single big remodeling project, it would
be to convert part of the master bedroom into an upstairs bathroom. *I
think having only one small bathroom, which is downstairs, is at least
as big a drawback as the submarine kitchen, probably more so. *This is
actually on my to-do list, right after "finish plumbing replacement"
and "new furnace" (every fall my HVAC guy shakes his head when he
tunes up my 40-year-old furnace and makes dire predictions about the
so-far unexpanded crack in the heat exchanger. *Every year he decides
he doesn't have to red-tag it "quite yet." *Yes, I have CO monitors
and alarms in almost every room.)

My first choice for expanding the kitchen would be to move the
exterior wall out over the side screen-porch (porch is at a lower
elevation than the kitchen, matching the two-steps-down level of the
utility room). *It would be a much bigger remodel, but would be truer
to the house's design (not turning the kitchen/dining into a "great
room") and would still leave a screen-porch, albeit a small one. *The
porch walks out onto a big deck, so making the porch smaller isn't a
deal-breaker; I just need a little space to sit out on hot evenings
during skeeter season. *The space below the kitchen (between the
kitchen floor and the porch floor) in this imagined expansion would
also create some much-needed storage space. *And then, the second time
I hit the lottery, I'll turn the deck into a 3-season room.

Jo Ann- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

holy hell, are you living in my house? *Seriously, it's kinda creepy
how well you described where i live.

nate

LOL! I have a friend whose house is laid out just like mine, too.
When I bought mine, she could have found her way around it
blindfolded. I think it must have been a pretty standard plan at one
time.

Unless I AM living in your house...this whole think isn't some weird
Twilight Zone episode, is it? (Maybe I'll wake up and discover I
really have a huge kitchen and an upstairs bathroom!)

Jo Ann

Wayne Boatwright wrote:

There are other brands besides Fisher & Paykel.

There is also a sink/dishwasher option:


http://www.beststuff.com/housewares/...ishwasher.html

Holy crap, half the size at twice the price. Proabably handy for some
people though.

I've seen other drawer machines, but they are the F&P with a different label
on them..