I just realized while rewiring my upstairs that some of the existing,
original wiring apparently does not meet current NEC. An example: a
switch box in the wall contains a toggle switch, a 14/3, and a 14/2. 5
conductors, 2 more for the yoke, and 1 for the clamps = 8 "conductors."
A 2-3/4" switch box is only 14 in^3. If I repull and add a ground,
that only makes the situation worse. Even in the case of a receptacle
with two cables, it would seem that this is still not acceptable, even
without a ground.

I can only assume that this was not a violation when the house was
built, as all of the original wiring appears to have been done in a
proper, workmanlike manner.

What do I do? Just repull and leave as is, or do I need to break all
the boxes out where I have a situation like this and use a 3-1/2" deep
box with plaster ears and Madison hangers?

'nother question. I need to replace a box in my bathroom for various
reasons. Are there any limitations on what kind of box I can use in
there? What about hanging from the rafters of an unfinished attic?
(would like to have a lampholder up there and possibly a receptacle as
well, so I don't need to keep using my construction lights and an
extension cord when I need to be up there. Ironically, it is primarily
for electrical work that I need to be there...)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

I just realized while rewiring my upstairs that some of the existing,
original wiring apparently does not meet current NEC. An example: a switch
box in the wall contains a toggle switch, a 14/3, and a 14/2. 5
conductors, 2 more for the yoke, and 1 for the clamps = 8 "conductors." A
2-3/4" switch box is only 14 in^3. If I repull and add a ground, that only
makes the situation worse. Even in the case of a receptacle with two
cables, it would seem that this is still not acceptable, even without a
ground.

I can only assume that this was not a violation when the house was built,
as all of the original wiring appears to have been done in a proper,
workmanlike manner.

What do I do? Just repull and leave as is, or do I need to break all the
boxes out where I have a situation like this and use a 3-1/2" deep box
with plaster ears and Madison hangers?

'nother question. I need to replace a box in my bathroom for various
reasons. Are there any limitations on what kind of box I can use in
there? What about hanging from the rafters of an unfinished attic? (would
like to have a lampholder up there and possibly a receptacle as well, so I
don't need to keep using my construction lights and an extension cord when
I need to be up there. Ironically, it is primarily for electrical work
that I need to be there...)


*The short answer is that you will better off with the deeper box. The
older codes did not require a deduction for wiring devices. If you are
going to be adding wiring for the ceiling fans that you proposed in an
earlier post then I suggest removing the one gang box and installing a two
gang box.

Removal of the one gang box can usually be done without doing too much
damage to the existing wall, but you must go slow and be a little gentle.
Sometimes prying with a big screwdriver is all you need to do. Other times
a sawzall is needed.

You can use a plastic two gang box or gang together two 3.5" metal gem
boxes. In addition to the madison bars I usually drill a hole in the side
of the gem box and shoot a #8 sheet metal screw into the wood. I do this
with the plastic boxes as well.

You can usually use whatever kind of box is acceptable anywhere else in a
bathroom unless there is something in your local code that requires
something specific.

You can mount electrical boxes in your attic on the roof trusses or
anything else that is solid and permanent. Just keep the light bulb away
from direct contact with anything combustible. You can run the wiring on
the surface of the roof trusses, but you cannot have wiring run along top of
the ceiling joists unless you have a board running along side of it. You
could also drill out the ceiling joists and run your wires through the
holes.

An outlet in the attic must be GFI protected.

Actually that work is already done, I did that yesterday. I did not
replace those switch boxes but if we install fans it shouldn't be a big
problem (one of those boxes is already an "old work" box so it's a
matter of a few minutes with a scroll saw to make that change.) I left
the single gang boxes because a) I do not have ceiling fans *currently*
and b) I had an issue in my kitchen where I ended up with an existing
two gang box and wanted to have a light switch and a fan control there.
It was harder for me to find a single gang fan control than it was to
find a single gang combined light/fan control, oddly enough. Although
the decor in the bedrooms is "vintage" so I may just let the fans have
pull chains there even though that offends me, as the devices are brown
and the switch plates are antique pressed brass (that's antique as in
contemporary to when the house was built, not "antiqued" finish.
Although I only polished the ones that were really horrible, the ones
with a nice even patina I left as is.) So that prompts another
question - who makes good single gang fan controls, and are they
available in brown? All the ones I've seen are mostly white with a few
ivory.



*Brown is not that popular of a color anymore. Consequently
manufacturers won't make and suppliers won't sell things that don't move.
Check Leviton and Lutron. Lutron has a big assortment of designer
colors. The alternative is to paint. Having two switches gives you the
option of just using two single pole brown switches which are readily
available for now and you can use the pull chain for speed control the
few times a year you may actually change the speed.

I thought of just using a toggle switch... but the idea of having a speed
control at the wall is appealing to me. What paint would a) adhere well
to the plastic used for wiring devices and b) hold up to being touched
repeatedly? Spray can epoxy? I'd feel really wasteful loading up a spray
gun for such a small job.

You're right about brown not being a popular color. I ended up with a
whole mess of spec grade stuff NOS still in the box from a salvage place
for next to nothing. Need any toggle switches? I've got a lifetime
supply It's the only color that looks right to me with patina'd brass
though.


But back to the question I was actually asking. The work I did over the
last two days was pretty much *only* correcting what I saw as shoddy
wiring in the half of the upstairs that had been previously renovated,
and providing a new feed to the upstairs with a ground wire (and that
right there tells me that the renovations weren't inspected, because how
can you add receptacles that aren't grounded?) Everything that was
original to the house was left as is and reconnected at the "new"
ceiling box locations. It turns out that there were only two places
where the "new" work met the old and in both cases there was a ceiling
box *closer* to the location of the original work, so I just trimmed
those cables shorter and reconnected them.



*How old is the house?

I believe it was built in 1948 or 1949.


So any future work that I do will be either simply repulling existing
cables to provide grounding and to get rid of old cables with
non-90C-rated insulation entering ceiling boxes, or adding supplemental
grounds where repulling is not practical/possible. I may also add some
receptacles in the master bedroom, because I haven't measured yet, but I
suspect that there may be one maybe two violations of the "within 6
feet" rule, but that's on down the road. I guess I know that it is not
100% correct to then pull a new cable (replacing an existing one) and/or
supplemental ground into a box where the resulting fill will not meet
NEC but was just wondering at what point the concept of "you touched it,
now you have to fully bring it up to code" kicked in. Additionally, it
sounds like I may have to replace one recep box to which I already
pulled a new cable, following this logic. I *really* would prefer not
to do that, because that's the box that holds my GFCI and even though
I'd definitely wrap any device with tape that goes into a box with
madison hangers, still...


*If you are in New Jersey we have a rehabilitation code which violates
common sense and modern safety standards. However it does allow you to
put back what was already there without having to update to modern
standards.

No, I'm in Virginia. Actually you have a good point, I believe I have a
copy of the state rehabilitation code at my desk at work, I'll have to
read it thoroughly after the holidays.

I'm wondering at this point if I'm venturing into the area where I should
draw up plans and get a permit, inspections, etc. In fact, I'm pretty
sure that I've already violated that requirement, but if I ever get called
on it, my explanation will be something like "well, I went up into the
attic thinking I was just going to pull one cable to provide proper
grounding for this area of my house that was already wired with grounded
cable and also replace a couple ceiling boxes, and, well, it was a
(expletive deleted) disaster and it was the holidays, so I just went ahead
and fixed it all." Which is pretty much a good summary of the last two
days.

I'm just a little hesitant to get a permit because my next door "neighbor"
(in quotes because he still hasn't moved in yet) told me that a big reason
why he's not done with his renovations has been with getting permits and
inspections. Not that it was difficult, but the process took so long.


I'd originally thought that now that I had good grounding available at
several points in the attic that I could then also do some other things
(e.g. pull a supplemental ground to another switch box that is on a
different, non-GFCI circuit so that I could put a metal switchplate on
it) but it sounds like literally anything I touch would involve
replacing the boxes due to box fill considerations. That greatly
increases the scope of work...


*Maybe you should pace yourself with a long term goal of bringing almost
everything up to modern standards and conveniences. Don't try to get too
much done at once and get burnt out.

That's always been my goal, and if I had a good helper I'd be kicking
butt. My real limitation is the patience of my cuter half. She tries to
be helpful and supportive (and actually does have a decent amount of skill
with a fish tape, and I taught her how to make a good "nose" the other day
to pull one cable with another) but I get the distinct impression that
"electrician's helper" was not on her list of life's goals :/ She's been
very patient with me over the past few days however and has helped me with
all of the vertical runs that I had to repull, taking down light fixtures
while I was working in the attic, helping me set the new ceiling boxes at
the right height, etc. but I suspect a lot of that had to do with the fact
that I came down cussing and fuming after finding the overstuffed, loose,
concealed, clamp-less junction boxes and explaining to her what I'd found.
(I don't know if being hidden under a foot of insulation meets the strict
definition of "concealed" or not, but *I* consider it to be so, seeing as
I had no idea where they were until I spent a lot of time looking for
them.)

A lot more of the work that remains to be done to modernize everything
would involve either lots of vertical pulls (e.g. 2-person work) or else
horizontal runs within existing walls, and patching plaster is not my idea
of a good time.

snip


You can usually use whatever kind of box is acceptable anywhere else in
a bathroom unless there is something in your local code that requires
something specific.

OK, again this is where my not actually being an electrician makes me
ask questions. I didn't know whether the bathroom was considered a
"damp" or "wet" location and if that made it different than elsewhere in
the house.


*The vanity and the ceiling near it are not considered damp or wet
locations. The ceiling inside and around the tub and shower is. A light
over a shower must be approved for that as well as an exhaust fan. In
addition some manufacturers require that their fans be GFI protected over
a shower or tub.

Right, and I will provide a GFCI for the bathroom when it gets to that
point. (there's only a light in there now, but it is GFCI protected
anyway as it's on the same circuit as everything else, and I have a GFCI
on there because there's at least six receptacles still ungrounded.) I
was just wondering if I needed to use a special box, mostly because some
of the existing boxes that I've seen appear that they might be stainless
steel. (either that, or they're just exceptionally shiny and corrosion
resistant.) This would be only one box, the sink is right next to the
door, so I figured on putting the light/fan controls and the required
receptacle all in one three gang box.

You can mount electrical boxes in your attic on the roof trusses or
anything else that is solid and permanent.

same as above...


*The attic is not a damp or wet location. You can use metal boxes since
they will be exposed and not protected by drywall.

Gotcha.


Just keep the light bulb away from direct contact with anything
combustible. You can run the wiring on the surface of the roof
trusses, but you cannot have wiring run along top of the ceiling joists
unless you have a board running along side of it. You could also drill
out the ceiling joists and run your wires through the holes.

Oddly enough, the *existing* wiring was laid across the top of the
joists - both the original and the renovations. I did, however, drill
everything that I redid through the joists with one exception, where
there was a crosswise structural member that was 3 2-bys laminated
together, I couldn't get all the way through it because my spade bit
wasn't long enough. Should I get an electrician's auger and go back and
redo that run?


*If it is easier just lay a piece of 2"x4" along side of the wire and
screw it down to keep it in place.

Probably easier to get an appropriate bit rather than to lug a 2x4 up into
the attic I haven't even hung the light fixture in the room that that
cable serves yet - that's also the room that I was going to try to repull
to the original receptacles, until I started thinking about box fill.



An outlet in the attic must be GFI protected.

Good to know. Are you using "outlet" in the common usage sense of
"receptacle" or in the strict definition sense including lampholders?


*Actually I may wrong about this. 210.8 doesn't mention attics and a
receptacle is not normally required there, but I think a GFI receptacle
is required for servicing if there is HVAC equipment in the attic space.
It is still a good idea to have the GFI protection even if it is not
required.

Makes sense, and I'll keep that in mind. I also may put a vent fan in the
attic at some point in time, so I don't know if that would qualify as
"HVAC equipment" or not, but there'd definitely then be "equipment" up
there.

thanks again for putting up with the stupid n00b questions...


*No problem Nate. Better to ask now before or while you are doing it rather
than after. I have used Krylon acrylic spray paint on wiring devices. I've
noticed that putting the device near heat seems to harden the paint. No
need for a receptacle for an attic exhaust fan, but you need a shut off
switch near it. You don't need any special boxes for bathroom receptacles.
However current code calls for a 20 amp circuit for the bathroom and with
the high horsepower blowdryers that are out there I highly recommend
upgrading.

Getting a permit and inspections is not a bad idea. You could go and talk
to your building department and tell them what you are doing and your time
frame and ask how they want to do it. It is a good idea to the inspectors
on your side early on. Once they see the quality of your work they may be a
little looser on some of the inspections. It is a good idea to have had
inspections done for insurance purposes and for when it comes time to sell
the house.

Take the cuter half out and do something that she likes to do to maintain
the balance.

In ,
Nate Nagel typed:
I just realized while rewiring my upstairs that some of the existing,
original wiring apparently does not meet current NEC. An example: a
switch box in the wall contains a toggle switch, a 14/3, and a 14/2. 5
conductors, 2 more for the yoke, and 1 for the clamps = 8
"conductors." A 2-3/4" switch box is only 14 in^3. If I repull and
add a ground, that only makes the situation worse. Even in the case
of a receptacle with two cables, it would seem that this is still not
acceptable, even without a ground.

I can only assume that this was not a violation when the house was
built, as all of the original wiring appears to have been done in a
proper, workmanlike manner.

What do I do? Just repull and leave as is, or do I need to break all
the boxes out where I have a situation like this and use a 3-1/2" deep
box with plaster ears and Madison hangers?

'nother question. I need to replace a box in my bathroom for various
reasons. Are there any limitations on what kind of box I can use in
there? What about hanging from the rafters of an unfinished attic?
(would like to have a lampholder up there and possibly a receptacle as
well, so I don't need to keep using my construction lights and an
extension cord when I need to be up there. Ironically, it is
primarily for electrical work that I need to be there...)

nate

For definite answers, you really need to check with your Local Code
Enforcement office. Local codes often have additional requirements they add
to NEC requirements.
Consider the NEC as the "minimum" requirements and your local code
enforcement office as the last word.
You don't even need to identify yourself when you call them unless you
want to. I'd say that due to the type of work you're doing you really
should have it inspected anyway. I've had them in quite a few times to
approve changes I've made here in NY state and they don't inspect anything
but the new work that you've done. Everything else is assumed to be
grandfathered in and they don't go looking for it.

The box with all the wires in it is almost certainly not to code of any
kind. Deeper boxes might be fine, but you still need their advice since
apparently all the wires thru the box are not related to what the switch
controls? It's possible another box might be needed (and preferable anyway
since your attic is open?).

In the bathroom and attic, etc., simply be sure you use the approved boxes
for your jurisdiction. Plastic, for instance, may not be allowed though it's
OK per the NEC codes in some cases. And remember, GFCI's are required there
too. Again, your local guys will give you the best answers. What they say
is what their inspectors in theory look for.
To get around the attic, get yourself a sheet or two of plywood and lay
it across the rafters to work from; it's safer than knee-busting on the
raftersg. Just be sure it's sufficiently thick to hold you on the span of
the rafters. I often use 5/8" or whatever its actual final measurement
turns out to be.
Put two screws in each piece at opposite ends, just to keep it from
jumping up if you lean on one end too hard, and twisting as you move about.

But whether you have it inspected now or never, or after you get reported,
get you local code enforcement's final reading on your plans. They're simple
questions and they should be able to answer off the top of their heads.

Twayne
--
--
Cats land on their feet.
but Toast lands PB side down;
A cat glued to some jelly toast will
hover in quantum indecision forever.

John Grabowski wrote:

*No problem Nate. Better to ask now before or while you are doing it
rather than after. I have used Krylon acrylic spray paint on wiring
devices. I've noticed that putting the device near heat seems to harden
the paint. No need for a receptacle for an attic exhaust fan, but you
need a shut off switch near it. You don't need any special boxes for
bathroom receptacles. However current code calls for a 20 amp circuit
for the bathroom and with the high horsepower blowdryers that are out
there I highly recommend upgrading.

right, that was always in my mental plans. Also is a new homerun to
split the bedrooms into two 15A circuits rather than a single 15A for
the whole floor as it is currently. (I would just pull 20A but that
would mean I'd have to do it all at once, I couldn't pick away at it
piece by piece.) So I would probably pull them simultaneously and
actually incorporate this into the same "project." I guess I would then
just blank off one space in the new box in the bathroom and leave a pull
string so then the next "project" would be installation of the bathroom
exhaust fan.


Getting a permit and inspections is not a bad idea. You could go and
talk to your building department and tell them what you are doing and
your time frame and ask how they want to do it. It is a good idea to
the inspectors on your side early on. Once they see the quality of your
work they may be a little looser on some of the inspections. It is a
good idea to have had inspections done for insurance purposes and for
when it comes time to sell the house.

I'll take that as a compliment although you have described my
professional relationship with a few inspectors, I get lots of slack at
work because they know the guys that actually do the work are
conscientious. Unfortunately, I don't know any inspectors in the
jurisdiction where I actually live, nor would any of those guys be doing
residential electrical inspections

Take the cuter half out and do something that she likes to do to
maintain the balance.

I suggested maybe we should go to an autocross together, but that just
got me a surly look. She claims not to like drag racing either. Is
there a group that can help me with this?

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

*No problem Nate. Better to ask now before or while you are doing it
rather than after. I have used Krylon acrylic spray paint on wiring
devices. I've noticed that putting the device near heat seems to harden
the paint. No need for a receptacle for an attic exhaust fan, but you
need a shut off switch near it. You don't need any special boxes for
bathroom receptacles. However current code calls for a 20 amp circuit for
the bathroom and with the high horsepower blowdryers that are out there I
highly recommend upgrading.

right, that was always in my mental plans. Also is a new homerun to split
the bedrooms into two 15A circuits rather than a single 15A for the whole
floor as it is currently. (I would just pull 20A but that would mean I'd
have to do it all at once, I couldn't pick away at it piece by piece.) So
I would probably pull them simultaneously and actually incorporate this
into the same "project." I guess I would then just blank off one space in
the new box in the bathroom and leave a pull string so then the next
"project" would be installation of the bathroom exhaust fan.


Getting a permit and inspections is not a bad idea. You could go and
talk to your building department and tell them what you are doing and
your time frame and ask how they want to do it. It is a good idea to the
inspectors on your side early on. Once they see the quality of your work
they may be a little looser on some of the inspections. It is a good
idea to have had inspections done for insurance purposes and for when it
comes time to sell the house.

I'll take that as a compliment although you have described my
professional relationship with a few inspectors, I get lots of slack at
work because they know the guys that actually do the work are
conscientious. Unfortunately, I don't know any inspectors in the
jurisdiction where I actually live, nor would any of those guys be doing
residential electrical inspections

Take the cuter half out and do something that she likes to do to maintain
the balance.

I suggested maybe we should go to an autocross together, but that just got
me a surly look. She claims not to like drag racing either. Is there a
group that can help me with this?


*Ballet or a musical comes to mind. There is a cruise ship or two leaving
out of Norfolk. Seven days at sea is nice. Of course there is always
diamonds.

Nate Nagel wrote:
John Grabowski wrote:

*No problem Nate. Better to ask now before or while you are doing it
rather than after. I have used Krylon acrylic spray paint on wiring
devices. I've noticed that putting the device near heat seems to
harden the paint. No need for a receptacle for an attic exhaust fan,
but you need a shut off switch near it. You don't need any special
boxes for bathroom receptacles. However current code calls for a 20
amp circuit for the bathroom and with the high horsepower blowdryers
that are out there I highly recommend upgrading.

right, that was always in my mental plans. Also is a new homerun to
split the bedrooms into two 15A circuits rather than a single 15A for
the whole floor as it is currently. (I would just pull 20A but that
would mean I'd have to do it all at once, I couldn't pick away at it
piece by piece.) So I would probably pull them simultaneously and
actually incorporate this into the same "project." I guess I would then
just blank off one space in the new box in the bathroom and leave a pull
string so then the next "project" would be installation of the bathroom
exhaust fan.


Getting a permit and inspections is not a bad idea. You could go and
talk to your building department and tell them what you are doing and
your time frame and ask how they want to do it. It is a good idea to
the inspectors on your side early on. Once they see the quality of
your work they may be a little looser on some of the inspections. It
is a good idea to have had inspections done for insurance purposes and
for when it comes time to sell the house.

I'll take that as a compliment although you have described my
professional relationship with a few inspectors, I get lots of slack at
work because they know the guys that actually do the work are
conscientious. Unfortunately, I don't know any inspectors in the
jurisdiction where I actually live, nor would any of those guys be doing
residential electrical inspections

Take the cuter half out and do something that she likes to do to
maintain the balance.

I suggested maybe we should go to an autocross together, but that just
got me a surly look. She claims not to like drag racing either. Is
there a group that can help me with this?

nate


snapped some pics while cleaning up. Not the most frightening
electrical work I've ever seen, but I wouldn't want to claim it as my own.

http://members.cox.net/njnagel2/house/nopermit.html

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
Nate Nagel wrote:
John Grabowski wrote:

*No problem Nate. Better to ask now before or while you are doing it
rather than after. I have used Krylon acrylic spray paint on wiring
devices. I've noticed that putting the device near heat seems to harden
the paint. No need for a receptacle for an attic exhaust fan, but you
need a shut off switch near it. You don't need any special boxes for
bathroom receptacles. However current code calls for a 20 amp circuit
for the bathroom and with the high horsepower blowdryers that are out
there I highly recommend upgrading.

right, that was always in my mental plans. Also is a new homerun to
split the bedrooms into two 15A circuits rather than a single 15A for the
whole floor as it is currently. (I would just pull 20A but that would
mean I'd have to do it all at once, I couldn't pick away at it piece by
piece.) So I would probably pull them simultaneously and actually
incorporate this into the same "project." I guess I would then just
blank off one space in the new box in the bathroom and leave a pull
string so then the next "project" would be installation of the bathroom
exhaust fan.


Getting a permit and inspections is not a bad idea. You could go and
talk to your building department and tell them what you are doing and
your time frame and ask how they want to do it. It is a good idea to
the inspectors on your side early on. Once they see the quality of your
work they may be a little looser on some of the inspections. It is a
good idea to have had inspections done for insurance purposes and for
when it comes time to sell the house.

I'll take that as a compliment although you have described my
professional relationship with a few inspectors, I get lots of slack at
work because they know the guys that actually do the work are
conscientious. Unfortunately, I don't know any inspectors in the
jurisdiction where I actually live, nor would any of those guys be doing
residential electrical inspections

Take the cuter half out and do something that she likes to do to
maintain the balance.

I suggested maybe we should go to an autocross together, but that just
got me a surly look. She claims not to like drag racing either. Is
there a group that can help me with this?

nate


snapped some pics while cleaning up. Not the most frightening electrical
work I've ever seen, but I wouldn't want to claim it as my own.

http://members.cox.net/njnagel2/house/nopermit.html


*The plastic jacketed cables are not original to the house (But I guess you
already know that). It looks as though someone just added and added as
needed.

John Grabowski wrote:

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
Nate Nagel wrote:
John Grabowski wrote:

*No problem Nate. Better to ask now before or while you are doing
it rather than after. I have used Krylon acrylic spray paint on
wiring devices. I've noticed that putting the device near heat
seems to harden the paint. No need for a receptacle for an attic
exhaust fan, but you need a shut off switch near it. You don't need
any special boxes for bathroom receptacles. However current code
calls for a 20 amp circuit for the bathroom and with the high
horsepower blowdryers that are out there I highly recommend upgrading.

right, that was always in my mental plans. Also is a new homerun to
split the bedrooms into two 15A circuits rather than a single 15A for
the whole floor as it is currently. (I would just pull 20A but that
would mean I'd have to do it all at once, I couldn't pick away at it
piece by piece.) So I would probably pull them simultaneously and
actually incorporate this into the same "project." I guess I would
then just blank off one space in the new box in the bathroom and
leave a pull string so then the next "project" would be installation
of the bathroom exhaust fan.


Getting a permit and inspections is not a bad idea. You could go
and talk to your building department and tell them what you are
doing and your time frame and ask how they want to do it. It is a
good idea to the inspectors on your side early on. Once they see
the quality of your work they may be a little looser on some of the
inspections. It is a good idea to have had inspections done for
insurance purposes and for when it comes time to sell the house.

I'll take that as a compliment although you have described my
professional relationship with a few inspectors, I get lots of slack
at work because they know the guys that actually do the work are
conscientious. Unfortunately, I don't know any inspectors in the
jurisdiction where I actually live, nor would any of those guys be
doing residential electrical inspections

Take the cuter half out and do something that she likes to do to
maintain the balance.

I suggested maybe we should go to an autocross together, but that
just got me a surly look. She claims not to like drag racing
either. Is there a group that can help me with this?

nate


snapped some pics while cleaning up. Not the most frightening
electrical work I've ever seen, but I wouldn't want to claim it as my
own.

http://members.cox.net/njnagel2/house/nopermit.html


*The plastic jacketed cables are not original to the house (But I guess
you already know that). It looks as though someone just added and added
as needed.

exactly. the box with the cloth covered cables I am pretty sure was the
ceiling light box in what used to be a very large master bedroom. When
it was split into two rooms and a hallway instead of laying out three
new ceiling boxes and running power and switch legs to them (like I just
did) they just... well... I really can't explain it. Best I can tell,
every switch leg terminated in one of those two boxes, as did the cables
to the ceiling boxes, as well as the drops to the receps. I guess the
second box was added when they couldn't cram any more wires into the
first one (there was only one cable connecting the two, they were within
a couple feet of each other) I'm not even sure WHY, because "my way" I
don't think would have been any more work.

Honestly, after taking a couple hours trying to figure everything out, I
just said "I'm shutting down the second floor, and I'm going to start
wiring everything how I think it should have been done. If I miss
anything, I'll figure it out later." If I could have seen everything it
would have been easier, but there's so darn much insulation up there
that simply running one cable is a bit of an adventure. Oh, and my arms
are all fiberglassy now. I didn't think to wear a long sleeve shirt at
first. I figured it out soon enough.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

*No problem Nate. Better to ask now before or while you are doing it
rather than after. I have used Krylon acrylic spray paint on wiring
devices. I've noticed that putting the device near heat seems to
harden the paint. No need for a receptacle for an attic exhaust fan,
but you need a shut off switch near it. You don't need any special
boxes for bathroom receptacles. However current code calls for a 20
amp circuit for the bathroom and with the high horsepower blowdryers
that are out there I highly recommend upgrading.

right, that was always in my mental plans. Also is a new homerun to
split the bedrooms into two 15A circuits rather than a single 15A for
the whole floor as it is currently. (I would just pull 20A but that
would mean I'd have to do it all at once, I couldn't pick away at it
piece by piece.) So I would probably pull them simultaneously and
actually incorporate this into the same "project." I guess I would
then just blank off one space in the new box in the bathroom and leave
a pull string so then the next "project" would be installation of the
bathroom exhaust fan.


Getting a permit and inspections is not a bad idea. You could go and
talk to your building department and tell them what you are doing and
your time frame and ask how they want to do it. It is a good idea to
the inspectors on your side early on. Once they see the quality of
your work they may be a little looser on some of the inspections. It
is a good idea to have had inspections done for insurance purposes and
for when it comes time to sell the house.

I'll take that as a compliment although you have described my
professional relationship with a few inspectors, I get lots of slack at
work because they know the guys that actually do the work are
conscientious. Unfortunately, I don't know any inspectors in the
jurisdiction where I actually live, nor would any of those guys be
doing residential electrical inspections

Take the cuter half out and do something that she likes to do to
maintain the balance.

I suggested maybe we should go to an autocross together, but that just
got me a surly look. She claims not to like drag racing either. Is
there a group that can help me with this?

nate


snapped some pics while cleaning up. Not the most frightening
electrical work I've ever seen, but I wouldn't want to claim it as my
own.

http://members.cox.net/njnagel2/house/nopermit.html


*The plastic jacketed cables are not original to the house (But I guess
you already know that). It looks as though someone just added and added
as needed.

exactly. the box with the cloth covered cables I am pretty sure was the
ceiling light box in what used to be a very large master bedroom. When it
was split into two rooms and a hallway instead of laying out three new
ceiling boxes and running power and switch legs to them (like I just did)
they just... well... I really can't explain it. Best I can tell, every
switch leg terminated in one of those two boxes, as did the cables to the
ceiling boxes, as well as the drops to the receps. I guess the second box
was added when they couldn't cram any more wires into the first one (there
was only one cable connecting the two, they were within a couple feet of
each other) I'm not even sure WHY, because "my way" I don't think would
have been any more work.

Honestly, after taking a couple hours trying to figure everything out, I
just said "I'm shutting down the second floor, and I'm going to start
wiring everything how I think it should have been done. If I miss
anything, I'll figure it out later." If I could have seen everything it
would have been easier, but there's so darn much insulation up there that
simply running one cable is a bit of an adventure. Oh, and my arms are
all fiberglassy now. I didn't think to wear a long sleeve shirt at first.
I figured it out soon enough.


*Everyone always asks me why I wear long sleeve shirts to work in the summer
time. Now you know why. Good luck with the new wiring and Have a Happy and
Safe New year.

John Grabowski wrote:


So any future work that I do will be either simply repulling existing
cables to provide grounding and to get rid of old cables with
non-90C-rated insulation entering ceiling boxes,

Romex that is 60C in ceiling boxes is not necessarily a problem. You
just have to use fixtures that are compatible with 60C wiring. Fixtures
for a long time have added fiberglass insulation in the canopy to limit
the heat that migrates to the wiring above.

I believe 90C Romex was also required because Romex was buried in attic
insulation. I haven't heard of actual problems from overheated Romex.

or adding
supplemental grounds where repulling is not practical/possible. I may
also add some receptacles in the master bedroom, because I haven't
measured yet, but I suspect that there may be one maybe two violations
of the "within 6 feet" rule, but that's on down the road.

IMHO for an existing house that was code compliant when wired the
question is are more receptacles needed because of the way the room is
being used. Violations of the "6 feet" rule should not be an issue. (But
rehabilitation or maintenance codes can modify NEC rules.) Do you need
extension cords?

I guess I
know that it is not 100% correct to then pull a new cable (replacing
an existing one) and/or supplemental ground into a box where the
resulting fill will not meet NEC but was just wondering at what point
the concept of "you touched it, now you have to fully bring it up to
code" kicked in.

Ask what the inspector recommends. Are you better off having ungrounded
wiring if you could fairly easily add a ground to the existing wiring
and the wires can be reasonably fit into the box.

Additionally, it sounds like I may have to replace
one recep box to which I already pulled a new cable, following this
logic. I *really* would prefer not to do that, because that's the box
that holds my GFCI and even though I'd definitely wrap any device with
tape that goes into a box with madison hangers, still...

An excellent question for the inspector. If you could get all the wires
into the box without using a hammer and still install the larger GFCI
you are doing well.


*If you are in New Jersey we have a rehabilitation code which violates
common sense and modern safety standards. However it does allow you to
put back what was already there without having to update to modern
standards.



I'd originally thought that now that I had good grounding available at
several points in the attic that I could then also do some other
things (e.g. pull a supplemental ground to another switch box that is
on a different, non-GFCI circuit so that I could put a metal
switchplate on it) but it sounds like literally anything I touch would
involve replacing the boxes due to box fill considerations. That
greatly increases the scope of work...

A reasonable way to look at it is that you are better off with a ground
and the wires reasonably fit into the box - which is the way you viewed
it. An inspector may agree.

*Maybe you should pace yourself with a long term goal of bringing almost
everything up to modern standards and conveniences. Don't try to get
too much done at once and get burnt out.

You can usually use whatever kind of box is acceptable anywhere else
in a bathroom unless there is something in your local code that
requires something specific.

OK, again this is where my not actually being an electrician makes me
ask questions. I didn't know whether the bathroom was considered a
"damp" or "wet" location and if that made it different than elsewhere
in the house.


*The vanity and the ceiling near it are not considered damp or wet
locations. The ceiling inside and around the tub and shower is. A
light over a shower must be approved for that as well as an exhaust
fan. In addition some manufacturers require that their fans be GFI
protected over a shower or tub.

From UL: "Fans intended to be mounted over tubs or showers have been
evaluated for such purposes and are marked 'Acceptable for use over a
bathtub or shower when installed in a GFCI protected branch circuit.’"

Of course John is right, but the manufacturer will require GFCI
protection for the fan.


Just keep the light bulb away from direct contact with anything
combustible. You can run the wiring on the surface of the roof
trusses, but you cannot have wiring run along top of the ceiling
joists unless you have a board running along side of it. You could
also drill out the ceiling joists and run your wires through the holes.

Oddly enough, the *existing* wiring was laid across the top of the
joists - both the original and the renovations. I did, however, drill
everything that I redid through the joists with one exception, where
there was a crosswise structural member that was 3 2-bys laminated
together, I couldn't get all the way through it because my spade bit
wasn't long enough. Should I get an electrician's auger and go back
and redo that run?


*If it is easier just lay a piece of 2"x4" along side of the wire and
screw it down to keep it in place.

The NEC requirement is in 334.23 which refers to 320.23 (BX):
"Where run across the top of floor joists or within 7 ft of floor or
floor joists across the face of rafters or studding, in attics or roof
spaces that are accessible, the cable shall be protected by substantial
guard strips that are at least as high as the cable. Where this space is
not accessible by permanent stairs or ladders, protection shall only be
required within 6 ft of the nearest edge of the scuttle hole or attic
entrance."

If you have Romex that is allowed on the top of joists over 6 ft from
the scuttle it can be fun when you are wading through insulation that is
above the joists doing additional work and trying to avoid the Romex you
can't see.


Nice thread. Sounds like you are doing quality work.

--
bud--

bud-- wrote:
John Grabowski wrote:


So any future work that I do will be either simply repulling existing
cables to provide grounding and to get rid of old cables with
non-90C-rated insulation entering ceiling boxes,

Romex that is 60C in ceiling boxes is not necessarily a problem. You
just have to use fixtures that are compatible with 60C wiring. Fixtures
for a long time have added fiberglass insulation in the canopy to limit
the heat that migrates to the wiring above.

I believe 90C Romex was also required because Romex was buried in attic
insulation. I haven't heard of actual problems from overheated Romex.

Neither have I, BUT, my attic definitely qualifies for "romex buried in
insulation." And I do mean buried. There's at least two layers of
(very ancient and falling apart) fiberglass batts, and then probably
another 6" of cellulose on top of that. What a mess!


or adding supplemental grounds where repulling is not
practical/possible. I may also add some receptacles in the master
bedroom, because I haven't measured yet, but I suspect that there may
be one maybe two violations of the "within 6 feet" rule, but that's
on down the road.

IMHO for an existing house that was code compliant when wired the
question is are more receptacles needed because of the way the room is
being used. Violations of the "6 feet" rule should not be an issue. (But
rehabilitation or maintenance codes can modify NEC rules.) Do you need
extension cords?

Yes. Oddly enough, I wanted a new recep in one particular location and
SWMBO asked if I could add one in another particular location, and when
I checked the room with a tape measure those were pretty much exactly
the locations that the six foot rule would indicate. So sometimes the
code actually makes sense!


I guess I know that it is not 100% correct to then pull a new cable
(replacing an existing one) and/or supplemental ground into a box
where the resulting fill will not meet NEC but was just wondering at
what point the concept of "you touched it, now you have to fully
bring it up to code" kicked in.

Ask what the inspector recommends. Are you better off having ungrounded
wiring if you could fairly easily add a ground to the existing wiring
and the wires can be reasonably fit into the box.

right. Once I realized that the existing boxes wouldn't meet current
code that's when I started thinking "maybe it's time for a permit."


Additionally, it sounds like I may have to replace one recep box to
which I already pulled a new cable, following this logic. I *really*
would prefer not to do that, because that's the box that holds my
GFCI and even though I'd definitely wrap any device with tape that
goes into a box with madison hangers, still...

An excellent question for the inspector. If you could get all the wires
into the box without using a hammer and still install the larger GFCI
you are doing well.


Yeah, I think I'll just have to hold off on any more work until after
the holidays and I'll see if I can talk to an inspector. I don't want
to get in bad with any AHJ's if I don't have to. I think the stuff I've
done so far might be excusable from a "why didn't you get a permit"
perspective, as in I didn't actually *add* anything, but I suspect that
rewiring an existing room with no evident problems, just old stuff and
1940's code compliance might raise some eyebrows, esp. if I am
physically adding devices that weren't there.


*If you are in New Jersey we have a rehabilitation code which violates
common sense and modern safety standards. However it does allow you
to put back what was already there without having to update to modern
standards.



I'd originally thought that now that I had good grounding available
at several points in the attic that I could then also do some other
things (e.g. pull a supplemental ground to another switch box that is
on a different, non-GFCI circuit so that I could put a metal
switchplate on it) but it sounds like literally anything I touch
would involve replacing the boxes due to box fill considerations.
That greatly increases the scope of work...

A reasonable way to look at it is that you are better off with a ground
and the wires reasonably fit into the box - which is the way you viewed
it. An inspector may agree.

*Maybe you should pace yourself with a long term goal of bringing
almost everything up to modern standards and conveniences. Don't try
to get too much done at once and get burnt out.
You can usually use whatever kind of box is acceptable anywhere else
in a bathroom unless there is something in your local code that
requires something specific.

OK, again this is where my not actually being an electrician makes me
ask questions. I didn't know whether the bathroom was considered a
"damp" or "wet" location and if that made it different than elsewhere
in the house.


*The vanity and the ceiling near it are not considered damp or wet
locations. The ceiling inside and around the tub and shower is. A
light over a shower must be approved for that as well as an exhaust
fan. In addition some manufacturers require that their fans be GFI
protected over a shower or tub.

From UL: "Fans intended to be mounted over tubs or showers have been
evaluated for such purposes and are marked 'Acceptable for use over a
bathtub or shower when installed in a GFCI protected branch circuit.’"

Of course John is right, but the manufacturer will require GFCI
protection for the fan.


Yeah, and I'll have it, in fact I've already bought all the material, I
just need to get a 20A circuit up there.


Just keep the light bulb away from direct contact with anything
combustible. You can run the wiring on the surface of the roof
trusses, but you cannot have wiring run along top of the ceiling
joists unless you have a board running along side of it. You could
also drill out the ceiling joists and run your wires through the holes.

Oddly enough, the *existing* wiring was laid across the top of the
joists - both the original and the renovations. I did, however,
drill everything that I redid through the joists with one exception,
where there was a crosswise structural member that was 3 2-bys
laminated together, I couldn't get all the way through it because my
spade bit wasn't long enough. Should I get an electrician's auger
and go back and redo that run?


*If it is easier just lay a piece of 2"x4" along side of the wire and
screw it down to keep it in place.

The NEC requirement is in 334.23 which refers to 320.23 (BX):
"Where run across the top of floor joists or within 7 ft of floor or
floor joists across the face of rafters or studding, in attics or roof
spaces that are accessible, the cable shall be protected by substantial
guard strips that are at least as high as the cable. Where this space is
not accessible by permanent stairs or ladders, protection shall only be
required within 6 ft of the nearest edge of the scuttle hole or attic
entrance."

If you have Romex that is allowed on the top of joists over 6 ft from
the scuttle it can be fun when you are wading through insulation that is
above the joists doing additional work and trying to avoid the Romex you
can't see.

Ah, that makes sense then. By that definition my attic is not
"accessable" although it would make sense to treat it as if it were, in
case I ever decide to provide a better access for it. Not sure how I
would actually do that, mind you, but still.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

In article ,
Nate Nagel wrote:

I just realized while rewiring my upstairs that some of the existing,
original wiring apparently does not meet current NEC. An example: a
switch box in the wall contains a toggle switch, a 14/3, and a 14/2. 5
conductors, 2 more for the yoke, and 1 for the clamps = 8 "conductors."
A 2-3/4" switch box is only 14 in^3. If I repull and add a ground,
that only makes the situation worse. Even in the case of a receptacle
with two cables, it would seem that this is still not acceptable, even
without a ground.

I can only assume that this was not a violation when the house was
built, as all of the original wiring appears to have been done in a
proper, workmanlike manner.

What do I do? Just repull and leave as is, or do I need to break all
the boxes out where I have a situation like this and use a 3-1/2" deep
box with plaster ears and Madison hangers?

'nother question. I need to replace a box in my bathroom for various
reasons. Are there any limitations on what kind of box I can use in
there? What about hanging from the rafters of an unfinished attic?
(would like to have a lampholder up there and possibly a receptacle as
well, so I don't need to keep using my construction lights and an
extension cord when I need to be up there. Ironically, it is primarily
for electrical work that I need to be there...)

nate

Serious question, Nate, why are you going to all this trouble to add
grounds to your outlets? Seems like a non-issue to me.

Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
Nate Nagel wrote:

I just realized while rewiring my upstairs that some of the existing,
original wiring apparently does not meet current NEC. An example: a
switch box in the wall contains a toggle switch, a 14/3, and a 14/2. 5
conductors, 2 more for the yoke, and 1 for the clamps = 8 "conductors."
A 2-3/4" switch box is only 14 in^3. If I repull and add a ground,
that only makes the situation worse. Even in the case of a receptacle
with two cables, it would seem that this is still not acceptable, even
without a ground.

I can only assume that this was not a violation when the house was
built, as all of the original wiring appears to have been done in a
proper, workmanlike manner.

What do I do? Just repull and leave as is, or do I need to break all
the boxes out where I have a situation like this and use a 3-1/2" deep
box with plaster ears and Madison hangers?

'nother question. I need to replace a box in my bathroom for various
reasons. Are there any limitations on what kind of box I can use in
there? What about hanging from the rafters of an unfinished attic?
(would like to have a lampholder up there and possibly a receptacle as
well, so I don't need to keep using my construction lights and an
extension cord when I need to be up there. Ironically, it is primarily
for electrical work that I need to be there...)

nate

Serious question, Nate, why are you going to all this trouble to add
grounds to your outlets? Seems like a non-issue to me.

The ones that were added in the renovations were already pulled with
grounded Romex, seemed like it would be a simple matter to get it done.
Of course as you can see that was something of a can of worms, but
it's taken care of now. Now that I've gone that far it really wouldn't
be that difficult to do the rest of them as well.

A lot of the reason is that I like the look of the antique pressed brass
cover plates, and it wouldn't be correct to use them on an ungrounded,
non-GFCI circuit.

nate

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