I just realized while rewiring my upstairs that some of the existing,
original wiring apparently does not meet current NEC. An example: a
switch box in the wall contains a toggle switch, a 14/3, and a 14/2. 5
conductors, 2 more for the yoke, and 1 for the clamps = 8 "conductors."
A 2-3/4" switch box is only 14 in^3. If I repull and add a ground,
that only makes the situation worse. Even in the case of a receptacle
with two cables, it would seem that this is still not acceptable, even
without a ground.

I can only assume that this was not a violation when the house was
built, as all of the original wiring appears to have been done in a
proper, workmanlike manner.

What do I do? Just repull and leave as is, or do I need to break all
the boxes out where I have a situation like this and use a 3-1/2" deep
box with plaster ears and Madison hangers?

'nother question. I need to replace a box in my bathroom for various
reasons. Are there any limitations on what kind of box I can use in
there? What about hanging from the rafters of an unfinished attic?
(would like to have a lampholder up there and possibly a receptacle as
well, so I don't need to keep using my construction lights and an
extension cord when I need to be up there. Ironically, it is primarily
for electrical work that I need to be there...)

nate

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I just realized while rewiring my upstairs that some of the existing,
original wiring apparently does not meet current NEC. An example: a switch
box in the wall contains a toggle switch, a 14/3, and a 14/2. 5
conductors, 2 more for the yoke, and 1 for the clamps = 8 "conductors." A
2-3/4" switch box is only 14 in^3. If I repull and add a ground, that only
makes the situation worse. Even in the case of a receptacle with two
cables, it would seem that this is still not acceptable, even without a
ground.

I can only assume that this was not a violation when the house was built,
as all of the original wiring appears to have been done in a proper,
workmanlike manner.

What do I do? Just repull and leave as is, or do I need to break all the
boxes out where I have a situation like this and use a 3-1/2" deep box
with plaster ears and Madison hangers?

'nother question. I need to replace a box in my bathroom for various
reasons. Are there any limitations on what kind of box I can use in
there? What about hanging from the rafters of an unfinished attic? (would
like to have a lampholder up there and possibly a receptacle as well, so I
don't need to keep using my construction lights and an extension cord when
I need to be up there. Ironically, it is primarily for electrical work
that I need to be there...)


*The short answer is that you will better off with the deeper box. The
older codes did not require a deduction for wiring devices. If you are
going to be adding wiring for the ceiling fans that you proposed in an
earlier post then I suggest removing the one gang box and installing a two
gang box.

Removal of the one gang box can usually be done without doing too much
damage to the existing wall, but you must go slow and be a little gentle.
Sometimes prying with a big screwdriver is all you need to do. Other times
a sawzall is needed.

You can use a plastic two gang box or gang together two 3.5" metal gem
boxes. In addition to the madison bars I usually drill a hole in the side
of the gem box and shoot a #8 sheet metal screw into the wood. I do this
with the plastic boxes as well.

You can usually use whatever kind of box is acceptable anywhere else in a
bathroom unless there is something in your local code that requires
something specific.

You can mount electrical boxes in your attic on the roof trusses or
anything else that is solid and permanent. Just keep the light bulb away
from direct contact with anything combustible. You can run the wiring on
the surface of the roof trusses, but you cannot have wiring run along top of
the ceiling joists unless you have a board running along side of it. You
could also drill out the ceiling joists and run your wires through the
holes.

An outlet in the attic must be GFI protected.

In ,
Nate Nagel typed:
I just realized while rewiring my upstairs that some of the existing,
original wiring apparently does not meet current NEC. An example: a
switch box in the wall contains a toggle switch, a 14/3, and a 14/2. 5
conductors, 2 more for the yoke, and 1 for the clamps = 8
"conductors." A 2-3/4" switch box is only 14 in^3. If I repull and
add a ground, that only makes the situation worse. Even in the case
of a receptacle with two cables, it would seem that this is still not
acceptable, even without a ground.

I can only assume that this was not a violation when the house was
built, as all of the original wiring appears to have been done in a
proper, workmanlike manner.

What do I do? Just repull and leave as is, or do I need to break all
the boxes out where I have a situation like this and use a 3-1/2" deep
box with plaster ears and Madison hangers?

'nother question. I need to replace a box in my bathroom for various
reasons. Are there any limitations on what kind of box I can use in
there? What about hanging from the rafters of an unfinished attic?
(would like to have a lampholder up there and possibly a receptacle as
well, so I don't need to keep using my construction lights and an
extension cord when I need to be up there. Ironically, it is
primarily for electrical work that I need to be there...)

nate

For definite answers, you really need to check with your Local Code
Enforcement office. Local codes often have additional requirements they add
to NEC requirements.
Consider the NEC as the "minimum" requirements and your local code
enforcement office as the last word.
You don't even need to identify yourself when you call them unless you
want to. I'd say that due to the type of work you're doing you really
should have it inspected anyway. I've had them in quite a few times to
approve changes I've made here in NY state and they don't inspect anything
but the new work that you've done. Everything else is assumed to be
grandfathered in and they don't go looking for it.

The box with all the wires in it is almost certainly not to code of any
kind. Deeper boxes might be fine, but you still need their advice since
apparently all the wires thru the box are not related to what the switch
controls? It's possible another box might be needed (and preferable anyway
since your attic is open?).

In the bathroom and attic, etc., simply be sure you use the approved boxes
for your jurisdiction. Plastic, for instance, may not be allowed though it's
OK per the NEC codes in some cases. And remember, GFCI's are required there
too. Again, your local guys will give you the best answers. What they say
is what their inspectors in theory look for.
To get around the attic, get yourself a sheet or two of plywood and lay
it across the rafters to work from; it's safer than knee-busting on the
raftersg. Just be sure it's sufficiently thick to hold you on the span of
the rafters. I often use 5/8" or whatever its actual final measurement
turns out to be.
Put two screws in each piece at opposite ends, just to keep it from
jumping up if you lean on one end too hard, and twisting as you move about.

But whether you have it inspected now or never, or after you get reported,
get you local code enforcement's final reading on your plans. They're simple
questions and they should be able to answer off the top of their heads.

Twayne
--
--
Cats land on their feet.
but Toast lands PB side down;
A cat glued to some jelly toast will
hover in quantum indecision forever.

In article ,
Nate Nagel wrote:

I just realized while rewiring my upstairs that some of the existing,
original wiring apparently does not meet current NEC. An example: a
switch box in the wall contains a toggle switch, a 14/3, and a 14/2. 5
conductors, 2 more for the yoke, and 1 for the clamps = 8 "conductors."
A 2-3/4" switch box is only 14 in^3. If I repull and add a ground,
that only makes the situation worse. Even in the case of a receptacle
with two cables, it would seem that this is still not acceptable, even
without a ground.

I can only assume that this was not a violation when the house was
built, as all of the original wiring appears to have been done in a
proper, workmanlike manner.

What do I do? Just repull and leave as is, or do I need to break all
the boxes out where I have a situation like this and use a 3-1/2" deep
box with plaster ears and Madison hangers?

'nother question. I need to replace a box in my bathroom for various
reasons. Are there any limitations on what kind of box I can use in
there? What about hanging from the rafters of an unfinished attic?
(would like to have a lampholder up there and possibly a receptacle as
well, so I don't need to keep using my construction lights and an
extension cord when I need to be up there. Ironically, it is primarily
for electrical work that I need to be there...)

nate

Serious question, Nate, why are you going to all this trouble to add
grounds to your outlets? Seems like a non-issue to me.

Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
Nate Nagel wrote:

I just realized while rewiring my upstairs that some of the existing,
original wiring apparently does not meet current NEC. An example: a
switch box in the wall contains a toggle switch, a 14/3, and a 14/2. 5
conductors, 2 more for the yoke, and 1 for the clamps = 8 "conductors."
A 2-3/4" switch box is only 14 in^3. If I repull and add a ground,
that only makes the situation worse. Even in the case of a receptacle
with two cables, it would seem that this is still not acceptable, even
without a ground.

I can only assume that this was not a violation when the house was
built, as all of the original wiring appears to have been done in a
proper, workmanlike manner.

What do I do? Just repull and leave as is, or do I need to break all
the boxes out where I have a situation like this and use a 3-1/2" deep
box with plaster ears and Madison hangers?

'nother question. I need to replace a box in my bathroom for various
reasons. Are there any limitations on what kind of box I can use in
there? What about hanging from the rafters of an unfinished attic?
(would like to have a lampholder up there and possibly a receptacle as
well, so I don't need to keep using my construction lights and an
extension cord when I need to be up there. Ironically, it is primarily
for electrical work that I need to be there...)

nate

Serious question, Nate, why are you going to all this trouble to add
grounds to your outlets? Seems like a non-issue to me.

The ones that were added in the renovations were already pulled with
grounded Romex, seemed like it would be a simple matter to get it done.
Of course as you can see that was something of a can of worms, but
it's taken care of now. Now that I've gone that far it really wouldn't
be that difficult to do the rest of them as well.

A lot of the reason is that I like the look of the antique pressed brass
cover plates, and it wouldn't be correct to use them on an ungrounded,
non-GFCI circuit.

nate

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replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
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