"LdB" wrote in message
m...
Metspitzer wrote:
Do new cars still come with break in oil? Did they ever? I have
always heard that the oil that came with a new car should be changed
sooner.

I just checked the owners manual of a new Honda and found no special
instructions for the first oil change.

My wife and I just bought a 2010 Toyota Matrix. I asked the salesman about
doing an oil change after a few thousand miles. He said that Toyota uses a
break in oil and not to change it. Whatever need be done will be done
during the regular warranty servicing.

LdB


What does the manual say? When the salesman quits or is fired, he won't be
much good in terms of the warranty.

In article ,
Tony wrote:



I also go with the 3K mile oil change. Many say it's a waste, but what
the hell, in the 70,000 miles I have on that van, oil changes have only
cost me about $500. An estimated $700 every 100,000 miles? That I can
afford for peace of mind. If I can afford about $14,000. in
gasoline/100000 miles, the oil changes are a drop in the bucket.

I buy the oil and filter at 3k, and end up procrastinating until it's
about 3500. Twice I've let it go to 4500, and the oil I drain out is
significantly dirtier. I don't like dirt in my oil.

LdB wrote:

Metspitzer wrote:
Do new cars still come with break in oil? Did they ever? I have
always heard that the oil that came with a new car should be changed
sooner.

I just checked the owners manual of a new Honda and found no special
instructions for the first oil change.

My wife and I just bought a 2010 Toyota Matrix. I asked the salesman
about doing an oil change after a few thousand miles. He said that
Toyota uses a break in oil and not to change it. Whatever need be
done will be done during the regular warranty servicing.

Generally speaking, whenever you feel like asking a salesman anything you
are better off to hit yourself in the head with a brick until the feeling
goes away.

"Break-In Periods" have not been relevant for a few decades now. If it
makes you feel better it's only a matter of 20 to 30 bucks, so go ahead and
change it.

On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 13:37:24 -0600, Rick Brandt
wrote:

"Break-In Periods" have not been relevant for a few decades now. If it
makes you feel better it's only a matter of 20 to 30 bucks, so go ahead and
change it.

Bull ****! Know what you're talking about before you stick you foot
in your mouth. It depends on the vehicle.

Gordon Shumway

Our Constitution needs to be used less as a shield
for the guilty and more as a sword for the victim.

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article ,
Tony wrote:



I also go with the 3K mile oil change. Many say it's a waste, but what
the hell, in the 70,000 miles I have on that van, oil changes have only
cost me about $500. An estimated $700 every 100,000 miles? That I can
afford for peace of mind. If I can afford about $14,000. in
gasoline/100000 miles, the oil changes are a drop in the bucket.

I buy the oil and filter at 3k, and end up procrastinating until it's
about 3500. Twice I've let it go to 4500, and the oil I drain out is
significantly dirtier. I don't like dirt in my oil.

The particles that you see in the oil that cause it to look "dirty" are too
small to hurt anything. They remain in suspension and never come between
metal pieces, and therefore don't cause wear. The oil filter will remove
anything big enough to cause any damage.

I used to work at a gas station, and I remember once this old famer coming
in. We checked his oil, he took a look at the dip stick, rubbed it between
his fingers, and goes "yep, feels gritty, must be time for an oil change".
By then I had learned to just keep my mouth shut, smile and change the oil.
There was no way we could ever convince him that "gritty" oil would destroy
the engine in about five minutes flat. He was happy, and his oil got changed
when it needed to ...

Some industrial equipment have pressure guages across the oil filter, and
they don't change the oil filter until it's plugged enough that a certain
amount of pressure develops across it. The reasoning is that a filter
partilly plugged filters finer particles then a brand new one. They won't
change the filter until right before it starts to bypass. I don't think they
do that today - easier to just replace it regularly rather then watch the
pressure guage and catch it shortly before it bypasses.

"Gordon Shumway" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 13:37:24 -0600, Rick Brandt
wrote:

"Break-In Periods" have not been relevant for a few decades now. If it
makes you feel better it's only a matter of 20 to 30 bucks, so go ahead
and
change it.

Bull ****! Know what you're talking about before you stick you foot
in your mouth. It depends on the vehicle.

Gordon Shumway


What does BMW charge for an oil change these days?

On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 16:16:44 -0500, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"Gordon Shumway" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 13:37:24 -0600, Rick Brandt
wrote:

"Break-In Periods" have not been relevant for a few decades now. If it
makes you feel better it's only a matter of 20 to 30 bucks, so go ahead
and
change it.

Bull ****! Know what you're talking about before you stick you foot
in your mouth. It depends on the vehicle.

Gordon Shumway


What does BMW charge for an oil change these days?


Exactly $ 0.00 when the car is still under warrantee. After that I do
it myself.

Gordon Shumway

Our Constitution needs to be used less as a shield
for the guilty and more as a sword for the victim.

Gordon Shumway wrote:
Bull ****! Know what you're talking about before you stick you foot
in your mouth. It depends on the vehicle.

Gordon Shumway

Our Constitution needs to be used less as a shield
for the guilty and more as a sword for the victim.

Yeah, whatever. Someone that doesn't know how to set up a newsnet sig
probably knows all about cars. (hint: it wouldn't have been included in the
quoted text if it was correct).

On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 16:21:21 -0600, Rick Brandt
wrote:

Gordon Shumway wrote:
Bull ****! Know what you're talking about before you stick you foot
in your mouth. It depends on the vehicle.

Gordon Shumway

Our Constitution needs to be used less as a shield
for the guilty and more as a sword for the victim.

Yeah, whatever. Someone that doesn't know how to set up a newsnet sig
probably knows all about cars. (hint: it wouldn't have been included in the
quoted text if it was correct).

Plonk!

AZ Nomad wrote:


Since you are fimiliar with rec.autos.tech, you already know they get
4 posts a day max.

rec.autos.tech has not such limitations. How did you arrive at that
fantasy.

He did not say there is a limit, but if there is no activity to speak of,
the chances of his question being answered are slim.

"Tony" wrote in message

I also go with the 3K mile oil change. Many say it's a waste, but
what the hell, in the 70,000 miles I have on that van, oil changes
have only cost me about $500. An estimated $700 every 100,000
miles? That I can afford for peace of mind. If I can afford about
$14,000. in gasoline/100000 miles, the oil changes are a drop in the
bucket.

So why not drop that $350 difference in my bucket? I've not changed oil
at 3000 miles in the past 25 years and I've never had an oil related problem
in cars that I've put up to 200,000 miles on. Why waste money on oil
changes when you can buy a case of beer instead?

Your money, do as you please, but mine will be put to better use.

On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:06:30 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote:


Since you are fimiliar with rec.autos.tech, you already know they get
4 posts a day max.

rec.autos.tech has not such limitations. How did you arrive at that
fantasy.

He did not say there is a limit, but if there is no activity to speak of,
the chances of his question being answered are slim.

Bull****. 247 posts in the last 12 days.

"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:06:30 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote:


Since you are fimiliar with rec.autos.tech, you already know they get
4 posts a day max.

rec.autos.tech has not such limitations. How did you arrive at that
fantasy.

He did not say there is a limit, but if there is no activity to speak of,
the chances of his question being answered are slim.

Bull****. 247 posts in the last 12 days.


Even so, the presence of his question in THIS newsgroup has no effect on
you. None whatsoever.

On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:33:33 -0500, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:06:30 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote:


Since you are fimiliar with rec.autos.tech, you already know they get
4 posts a day max.

rec.autos.tech has not such limitations. How did you arrive at that
fantasy.

He did not say there is a limit, but if there is no activity to speak of,
the chances of his question being answered are slim.

Bull****. 247 posts in the last 12 days.


Even so, the presence of his question in THIS newsgroup has no effect on
you. None whatsoever.

Irrelevent whining.

"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:33:33 -0500, JoeSpareBedroom
wrote:
"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:06:30 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote:


Since you are fimiliar with rec.autos.tech, you already know they get
4 posts a day max.

rec.autos.tech has not such limitations. How did you arrive at that
fantasy.

He did not say there is a limit, but if there is no activity to speak
of,
the chances of his question being answered are slim.

Bull****. 247 posts in the last 12 days.


Even so, the presence of his question in THIS newsgroup has no effect on
you. None whatsoever.

Irrelevent whining.


Me whining? You're the one being a little bitch about what you consider OT
subjects. If you don't like reading certain subjects, don't read them.
That's easy for most normal adults. How about you?

Zootal wrote:
"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article ,
Tony wrote:


I also go with the 3K mile oil change. Many say it's a waste, but what
the hell, in the 70,000 miles I have on that van, oil changes have only
cost me about $500. An estimated $700 every 100,000 miles? That I can
afford for peace of mind. If I can afford about $14,000. in
gasoline/100000 miles, the oil changes are a drop in the bucket.
I buy the oil and filter at 3k, and end up procrastinating until it's
about 3500. Twice I've let it go to 4500, and the oil I drain out is
significantly dirtier. I don't like dirt in my oil.

The particles that you see in the oil that cause it to look "dirty" are too
small to hurt anything. They remain in suspension and never come between
metal pieces, and therefore don't cause wear. The oil filter will remove
anything big enough to cause any damage.

I used to work at a gas station, and I remember once this old famer coming
in. We checked his oil, he took a look at the dip stick, rubbed it between
his fingers, and goes "yep, feels gritty, must be time for an oil change".
By then I had learned to just keep my mouth shut, smile and change the oil.
There was no way we could ever convince him that "gritty" oil would destroy
the engine in about five minutes flat. He was happy, and his oil got changed
when it needed to ...

Some industrial equipment have pressure guages across the oil filter, and
they don't change the oil filter until it's plugged enough that a certain
amount of pressure develops across it. The reasoning is that a filter
partilly plugged filters finer particles then a brand new one. They won't
change the filter until right before it starts to bypass. I don't think they
do that today - easier to just replace it regularly rather then watch the
pressure guage and catch it shortly before it bypasses.

Most auto engines oil filters bypass oil even when the filter is brand
new. They do it when the engine is cold and also when the motor is
revved past a certain point.

In article ,
"Zootal" wrote:

The particles that you see in the oil that cause it to look "dirty" are too
small to hurt anything. They remain in suspension and never come between
metal pieces, and therefore don't cause wear. The oil filter will remove
anything big enough to cause any damage.

You might be right, I haven't looked into the matter much. But it's hard
for me to accept that a particle that's big enough to see, at least en
masse, isn't big enough to cause trouble.

There's a big difference between suspension and solution. Did you mean
to say "in solution?" A particle in suspension in oil could certainly
come between metal pieces.

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"Zootal" wrote:

The particles that you see in the oil that cause it to look "dirty" are
too
small to hurt anything. They remain in suspension and never come between
metal pieces, and therefore don't cause wear. The oil filter will remove
anything big enough to cause any damage.

You might be right, I haven't looked into the matter much. But it's hard
for me to accept that a particle that's big enough to see, at least en
masse, isn't big enough to cause trouble.

There's a big difference between suspension and solution. Did you mean
to say "in solution?" A particle in suspension in oil could certainly
come between metal pieces.

I suppose there is stuff in solution also, but most of it is particulates in
suspension. And they don't come between metal pieces because there are no
gaps in the engine small enough. Metal on metal contact does not normally
happen in an engine (except for a short period of time following cold
startup, and obviously during a loss of oil pressure, etc.). 99.9% of the
wear that occurs to an engine happens within a short period of time
following cold startup. Anyhow, the rings don't physically touch the
cylinder walls, the rod and main bearings don't touch the journals, the
rocker arms don't physically touch the cam shafts. All of these are
separated by a thin film of oil, and this thin film is thick enough that
most of the stuff in dirty oil fits very nicely inbetween without touching
the metal. That is why you can run an engine with the nastiest looking oil
and not hurt it any.



I've taken apart a lot of engines, and anyone that hwhich is why you can get
a couple hundred thousand miles out of an engine.The oil itself takes up a
certain amount of space, and the stuff that discolors oil is smaller then
that.

Smitty Two wrote in
news
In article ,
"Zootal" wrote:

The particles that you see in the oil that cause it to look "dirty"
are too small to hurt anything. They remain in suspension and never
come between metal pieces, and therefore don't cause wear. The oil
filter will remove anything big enough to cause any damage.

You might be right, I haven't looked into the matter much. But it's
hard for me to accept that a particle that's big enough to see, at
least en masse, isn't big enough to cause trouble.

There's a big difference between suspension and solution. Did you mean
to say "in solution?" A particle in suspension in oil could certainly
come between metal pieces.


remember that the particles are ones that have passed thru your oil
filter*.Doubtful they would be harmful to your motor.

* Unless your filter is so clogged that the bypass has opened.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 19:22:16 -0500, Tony
wrote:

Zootal wrote:
"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article ,
Tony wrote:


I also go with the 3K mile oil change. Many say it's a waste, but what
the hell, in the 70,000 miles I have on that van, oil changes have only
cost me about $500. An estimated $700 every 100,000 miles? That I can
afford for peace of mind. If I can afford about $14,000. in
gasoline/100000 miles, the oil changes are a drop in the bucket.
I buy the oil and filter at 3k, and end up procrastinating until it's
about 3500. Twice I've let it go to 4500, and the oil I drain out is
significantly dirtier. I don't like dirt in my oil.

The particles that you see in the oil that cause it to look "dirty" are too
small to hurt anything. They remain in suspension and never come between
metal pieces, and therefore don't cause wear. The oil filter will remove
anything big enough to cause any damage.

I used to work at a gas station, and I remember once this old famer coming
in. We checked his oil, he took a look at the dip stick, rubbed it between
his fingers, and goes "yep, feels gritty, must be time for an oil change".
By then I had learned to just keep my mouth shut, smile and change the oil.
There was no way we could ever convince him that "gritty" oil would destroy
the engine in about five minutes flat. He was happy, and his oil got changed
when it needed to ...

Some industrial equipment have pressure guages across the oil filter, and
they don't change the oil filter until it's plugged enough that a certain
amount of pressure develops across it. The reasoning is that a filter
partilly plugged filters finer particles then a brand new one. They won't
change the filter until right before it starts to bypass. I don't think they
do that today - easier to just replace it regularly rather then watch the
pressure guage and catch it shortly before it bypasses.

Most auto engines oil filters bypass oil even when the filter is brand
new. They do it when the engine is cold and also when the motor is
revved past a certain point.
No, the filters don't bypass when cold or reved. The oil pressure
regulator does. Two totally fdifferent animals.

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 19:22:16 -0500, Tony
wrote:

Zootal wrote:
"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news In article ,
Tony wrote:


I also go with the 3K mile oil change. Many say it's a waste, but
what
the hell, in the 70,000 miles I have on that van, oil changes have
only
cost me about $500. An estimated $700 every 100,000 miles? That I
can
afford for peace of mind. If I can afford about $14,000. in
gasoline/100000 miles, the oil changes are a drop in the bucket.
I buy the oil and filter at 3k, and end up procrastinating until it's
about 3500. Twice I've let it go to 4500, and the oil I drain out is
significantly dirtier. I don't like dirt in my oil.

The particles that you see in the oil that cause it to look "dirty" are
too
small to hurt anything. They remain in suspension and never come between
metal pieces, and therefore don't cause wear. The oil filter will remove
anything big enough to cause any damage.

I used to work at a gas station, and I remember once this old famer
coming
in. We checked his oil, he took a look at the dip stick, rubbed it
between
his fingers, and goes "yep, feels gritty, must be time for an oil
change".
By then I had learned to just keep my mouth shut, smile and change the
oil.
There was no way we could ever convince him that "gritty" oil would
destroy
the engine in about five minutes flat. He was happy, and his oil got
changed
when it needed to ...

Some industrial equipment have pressure guages across the oil filter,
and
they don't change the oil filter until it's plugged enough that a
certain
amount of pressure develops across it. The reasoning is that a filter
partilly plugged filters finer particles then a brand new one. They
won't
change the filter until right before it starts to bypass. I don't think
they
do that today - easier to just replace it regularly rather then watch
the
pressure guage and catch it shortly before it bypasses.

Most auto engines oil filters bypass oil even when the filter is brand
new. They do it when the engine is cold and also when the motor is
revved past a certain point.
No, the filters don't bypass when cold or reved. The oil pressure
regulator does. Two totally fdifferent animals.

Yah - the filters only bypass when the filter element is sufficiently
plugged. Oil pumps have a pressure regulator that bleeds oil back into the
crankcase if the max pressure is exceeded. This happens at cold startup and
high rpm.

"Zootal" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 19:22:16 -0500, Tony
wrote:

Zootal wrote:
"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news In article ,
Tony wrote:


I also go with the 3K mile oil change. Many say it's a waste, but
what
the hell, in the 70,000 miles I have on that van, oil changes have
only
cost me about $500. An estimated $700 every 100,000 miles? That I
can
afford for peace of mind. If I can afford about $14,000. in
gasoline/100000 miles, the oil changes are a drop in the bucket.
I buy the oil and filter at 3k, and end up procrastinating until it's
about 3500. Twice I've let it go to 4500, and the oil I drain out is
significantly dirtier. I don't like dirt in my oil.

The particles that you see in the oil that cause it to look "dirty" are
too
small to hurt anything. They remain in suspension and never come
between
metal pieces, and therefore don't cause wear. The oil filter will
remove
anything big enough to cause any damage.

I used to work at a gas station, and I remember once this old famer
coming
in. We checked his oil, he took a look at the dip stick, rubbed it
between
his fingers, and goes "yep, feels gritty, must be time for an oil
change".
By then I had learned to just keep my mouth shut, smile and change the
oil.
There was no way we could ever convince him that "gritty" oil would
destroy
the engine in about five minutes flat. He was happy, and his oil got
changed
when it needed to ...

Some industrial equipment have pressure guages across the oil filter,
and
they don't change the oil filter until it's plugged enough that a
certain
amount of pressure develops across it. The reasoning is that a filter
partilly plugged filters finer particles then a brand new one. They
won't
change the filter until right before it starts to bypass. I don't think
they
do that today - easier to just replace it regularly rather then watch
the
pressure guage and catch it shortly before it bypasses.

Most auto engines oil filters bypass oil even when the filter is brand
new. They do it when the engine is cold and also when the motor is
revved past a certain point.
No, the filters don't bypass when cold or reved. The oil pressure
regulator does. Two totally fdifferent animals.

Yah - the filters only bypass when the filter element is sufficiently
plugged. Oil pumps have a pressure regulator that bleeds oil back into the
crankcase if the max pressure is exceeded. This happens at cold startup
and high rpm.


FWIW - one of my old instructors built race car engines, and he told us of
the time he put a high volume oil pump into one of his engines. Took it out
on the track and the engine siezed before he completed one lap. Come to find
out that the drain holes in the head were not big enough to drain the oil
into the pan as fast as it was getting pumped to the rocker arms. The top of
the engine filled up with the oil, oil pan went empty, and bye bye engine.

On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 23:21:18 -0500, clare wrote:
No, the filters don't bypass when cold or reved. The oil pressure
regulator does. Two totally fdifferent animals.

and it's fun when they break on old vehicles and the engine's sitting
there recirculating unfiltered oil - then the particles jam up whatever
the smallest oilway is and things go bad from there...

wrote:
On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 19:22:16 -0500, Tony
wrote:

Zootal wrote:
"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news In article ,
Tony wrote:


I also go with the 3K mile oil change. Many say it's a waste, but what
the hell, in the 70,000 miles I have on that van, oil changes have only
cost me about $500. An estimated $700 every 100,000 miles? That I can
afford for peace of mind. If I can afford about $14,000. in
gasoline/100000 miles, the oil changes are a drop in the bucket.
I buy the oil and filter at 3k, and end up procrastinating until it's
about 3500. Twice I've let it go to 4500, and the oil I drain out is
significantly dirtier. I don't like dirt in my oil.
The particles that you see in the oil that cause it to look "dirty" are too
small to hurt anything. They remain in suspension and never come between
metal pieces, and therefore don't cause wear. The oil filter will remove
anything big enough to cause any damage.

I used to work at a gas station, and I remember once this old famer coming
in. We checked his oil, he took a look at the dip stick, rubbed it between
his fingers, and goes "yep, feels gritty, must be time for an oil change".
By then I had learned to just keep my mouth shut, smile and change the oil.
There was no way we could ever convince him that "gritty" oil would destroy
the engine in about five minutes flat. He was happy, and his oil got changed
when it needed to ...

Some industrial equipment have pressure guages across the oil filter, and
they don't change the oil filter until it's plugged enough that a certain
amount of pressure develops across it. The reasoning is that a filter
partilly plugged filters finer particles then a brand new one. They won't
change the filter until right before it starts to bypass. I don't think they
do that today - easier to just replace it regularly rather then watch the
pressure guage and catch it shortly before it bypasses.
Most auto engines oil filters bypass oil even when the filter is brand
new. They do it when the engine is cold and also when the motor is
revved past a certain point.
No, the filters don't bypass when cold or reved. The oil pressure
regulator does. Two totally fdifferent animals.

I thought at least some filters have a bypass in them? Maybe not but
yes on the pressure regulator, wasn't thinking, just typing.

On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:06:40 -0500, Tony wrote:
No, the filters don't bypass when cold or reved. The oil pressure
regulator does. Two totally fdifferent animals.

I thought at least some filters have a bypass in them?

Maybe. The last old car I had used a cartridge filter (i.e. the cartridge
was replacable, but the housing was retained - unlike modern filters
where the whole filter can is swapped). The cartridge was held in
place under spring tension by what was essentially a valve - too much
pressure (or a blocked filter) and the valve would open.

Whether any modern "all in one" filters have a built-in mechanism
like that though, I don't know.

cheers

Jules

On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:06:40 -0500, Tony
wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 19:22:16 -0500, Tony
wrote:

Zootal wrote:
"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news In article ,
Tony wrote:


I also go with the 3K mile oil change. Many say it's a waste, but what
the hell, in the 70,000 miles I have on that van, oil changes have only
cost me about $500. An estimated $700 every 100,000 miles? That I can
afford for peace of mind. If I can afford about $14,000. in
gasoline/100000 miles, the oil changes are a drop in the bucket.
I buy the oil and filter at 3k, and end up procrastinating until it's
about 3500. Twice I've let it go to 4500, and the oil I drain out is
significantly dirtier. I don't like dirt in my oil.
The particles that you see in the oil that cause it to look "dirty" are too
small to hurt anything. They remain in suspension and never come between
metal pieces, and therefore don't cause wear. The oil filter will remove
anything big enough to cause any damage.

I used to work at a gas station, and I remember once this old famer coming
in. We checked his oil, he took a look at the dip stick, rubbed it between
his fingers, and goes "yep, feels gritty, must be time for an oil change".
By then I had learned to just keep my mouth shut, smile and change the oil.
There was no way we could ever convince him that "gritty" oil would destroy
the engine in about five minutes flat. He was happy, and his oil got changed
when it needed to ...

Some industrial equipment have pressure guages across the oil filter, and
they don't change the oil filter until it's plugged enough that a certain
amount of pressure develops across it. The reasoning is that a filter
partilly plugged filters finer particles then a brand new one. They won't
change the filter until right before it starts to bypass. I don't think they
do that today - easier to just replace it regularly rather then watch the
pressure guage and catch it shortly before it bypasses.
Most auto engines oil filters bypass oil even when the filter is brand
new. They do it when the engine is cold and also when the motor is
revved past a certain point.
No, the filters don't bypass when cold or reved. The oil pressure
regulator does. Two totally fdifferent animals.

I thought at least some filters have a bypass in them? Maybe not but
yes on the pressure regulator, wasn't thinking, just typing.

MOST filters have a bypass on them, but they are set to bypass when
the pressure difference across the filter gets too high (blocked
filter) GENERALLY they do not come into play from cold, and virtually
never because of high engine speed (which increases oil flow - and
therefore pressure across the engine clearances, but not the filter.)

Jules wrote:
On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:06:40 -0500, Tony wrote:
No, the filters don't bypass when cold or reved. The oil pressure
regulator does. Two totally fdifferent animals.
I thought at least some filters have a bypass in them?

Maybe. The last old car I had used a cartridge filter (i.e. the cartridge
was replacable, but the housing was retained - unlike modern filters
where the whole filter can is swapped). The cartridge was held in
place under spring tension by what was essentially a valve - too much
pressure (or a blocked filter) and the valve would open.

Whether any modern "all in one" filters have a built-in mechanism
like that though, I don't know.

cheers

Jules


Do you remember the toilet paper oil filter cartridge kits?
It was a reusable filter replacement for the spin on throw
away filters. I saw ads for them but never got my hands on
one of them. Some toilet tissues I've come across remind me
of oil filter media material. OUCH!

TDD

wrote:
On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:06:40 -0500, Tony
wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 19:22:16 -0500, Tony
wrote:

Zootal wrote:
"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news In article ,
Tony wrote:


I also go with the 3K mile oil change. Many say it's a waste, but what
the hell, in the 70,000 miles I have on that van, oil changes have only
cost me about $500. An estimated $700 every 100,000 miles? That I can
afford for peace of mind. If I can afford about $14,000. in
gasoline/100000 miles, the oil changes are a drop in the bucket.
I buy the oil and filter at 3k, and end up procrastinating until it's
about 3500. Twice I've let it go to 4500, and the oil I drain out is
significantly dirtier. I don't like dirt in my oil.
The particles that you see in the oil that cause it to look "dirty" are too
small to hurt anything. They remain in suspension and never come between
metal pieces, and therefore don't cause wear. The oil filter will remove
anything big enough to cause any damage.

I used to work at a gas station, and I remember once this old famer coming
in. We checked his oil, he took a look at the dip stick, rubbed it between
his fingers, and goes "yep, feels gritty, must be time for an oil change".
By then I had learned to just keep my mouth shut, smile and change the oil.
There was no way we could ever convince him that "gritty" oil would destroy
the engine in about five minutes flat. He was happy, and his oil got changed
when it needed to ...

Some industrial equipment have pressure guages across the oil filter, and
they don't change the oil filter until it's plugged enough that a certain
amount of pressure develops across it. The reasoning is that a filter
partilly plugged filters finer particles then a brand new one. They won't
change the filter until right before it starts to bypass. I don't think they
do that today - easier to just replace it regularly rather then watch the
pressure guage and catch it shortly before it bypasses.
Most auto engines oil filters bypass oil even when the filter is brand
new. They do it when the engine is cold and also when the motor is
revved past a certain point.
No, the filters don't bypass when cold or reved. The oil pressure
regulator does. Two totally fdifferent animals.
I thought at least some filters have a bypass in them? Maybe not but
yes on the pressure regulator, wasn't thinking, just typing.

MOST filters have a bypass on them, but they are set to bypass when
the pressure difference across the filter gets too high (blocked
filter) GENERALLY they do not come into play from cold, and virtually
never because of high engine speed (which increases oil flow - and
therefore pressure across the engine clearances, but not the filter.)

All oil filters restrict oil flow. Some more and some less. If they
didn't, they couldn't filter. Cold oil is less fluid and causes the
pressure difference to increase. Revving the engine pumps oil faster.
Wherever there is a restriction the greater the pressure difference.

One very cold day I saw a guy at work start his car. He always revved
it up when it started, and he only used 30 weight oil. That cold day
the oil filter blew out from all the pressure and he had quite a mess to
clean up and a filter to replace. I suppose the bypass or regulator in
the motor was a little too little, or a little to slow opening up.

Tony wrote:
....

... Cold oil is less fluid and causes the
pressure difference to increase. ...

Which is why any modern vehicle will specify multi-grade oil. There the
viscosity is modified by the additives to _not_ increase drastically w/
temperature...

The failure you state was an extreme aberration at best; I'd think it
more than likely it was a case of either wrong oil or cheap filter or
combination of both and perhaps other causes as well...

--

"dpb" wrote in message
...
Tony wrote:
...

... Cold oil is less fluid and causes the pressure difference to
increase. ...

Which is why any modern vehicle will specify multi-grade oil. There the
viscosity is modified by the additives to _not_ increase drastically w/
temperature...

The failure you state was an extreme aberration at best; I'd think it more
than likely it was a case of either wrong oil or cheap filter or
combination of both and perhaps other causes as well...

--

I seriously doubt that revving the engine on a cold startup with 30w oil
would blow the fitler. The oil pump pressure valve would limit the pressure
to 60-80psi or so, no matter how cold or thick the oil is. The filter can
take a lot more pressure than that. I can think of several things that will
blow a filter - faulty installation or the wrong filter can blow out the
gasket. A defective filter could blow, but that is pretty unlikely. My next
vote would be that the oil pump pressure valve stuck shut. I've seen that
happen - it is extremely rare, but on a cold tight engine with heavy oil and
a sticky valve (it's just a ball and a spring, after all), the oil pump can
put out a couple hundred psi or (much) more if the check valve sticks shut.
*That* will blow out the oil filter! Real fast, and quite spectactularly!
And it will make a mess as oil under high pressure sprays all over the
place. And if you don't catch it in time and just keep running the engine,
in a few moments the engine itself will quite nicely sieze.

dpb wrote:
Tony wrote:
...

... Cold oil is less fluid and causes the pressure difference to
increase. ...

Which is why any modern vehicle will specify multi-grade oil. There the
viscosity is modified by the additives to _not_ increase drastically w/
temperature...

The failure you state was an extreme aberration at best; I'd think it
more than likely it was a case of either wrong oil or cheap filter or
combination of both and perhaps other causes as well...

I completely agree. I should have worded it better to say that the
bypass wasn't good enough *for the wrong type of oil he used*.

Zootal wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message
...
Tony wrote:
...

... Cold oil is less fluid and causes the pressure difference to
increase. ...
Which is why any modern vehicle will specify multi-grade oil. There the
viscosity is modified by the additives to _not_ increase drastically w/
temperature...

The failure you state was an extreme aberration at best; I'd think it more
than likely it was a case of either wrong oil or cheap filter or
combination of both and perhaps other causes as well...

--

I seriously doubt that revving the engine on a cold startup with 30w oil
would blow the fitler. The oil pump pressure valve would limit the pressure
to 60-80psi or so, no matter how cold or thick the oil is. The filter can
take a lot more pressure than that. I can think of several things that will
blow a filter - faulty installation or the wrong filter can blow out the
gasket. A defective filter could blow, but that is pretty unlikely. My next
vote would be that the oil pump pressure valve stuck shut. I've seen that
happen - it is extremely rare, but on a cold tight engine with heavy oil and
a sticky valve (it's just a ball and a spring, after all), the oil pump can
put out a couple hundred psi or (much) more if the check valve sticks shut.
*That* will blow out the oil filter! Real fast, and quite spectactularly!
And it will make a mess as oil under high pressure sprays all over the
place. And if you don't catch it in time and just keep running the engine,
in a few moments the engine itself will quite nicely sieze.

I don't see what you are trying to say. If you have seen a filter blow,
don't you think it would be more likely to happen if the vehicle also
had the wrong oil, temps were extremely cold, and revving the engine? I
think those three things would surely raise the chance of blowing the
filter.

"Tony" wrote in message
...
Zootal wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message
...
Tony wrote:
...

... Cold oil is less fluid and causes the pressure difference to
increase. ...
Which is why any modern vehicle will specify multi-grade oil. There the
viscosity is modified by the additives to _not_ increase drastically w/
temperature...

The failure you state was an extreme aberration at best; I'd think it
more than likely it was a case of either wrong oil or cheap filter or
combination of both and perhaps other causes as well...

--

I seriously doubt that revving the engine on a cold startup with 30w oil
would blow the fitler. The oil pump pressure valve would limit the
pressure to 60-80psi or so, no matter how cold or thick the oil is. The
filter can take a lot more pressure than that. I can think of several
things that will blow a filter - faulty installation or the wrong filter
can blow out the gasket. A defective filter could blow, but that is
pretty unlikely. My next vote would be that the oil pump pressure valve
stuck shut. I've seen that happen - it is extremely rare, but on a cold
tight engine with heavy oil and a sticky valve (it's just a ball and a
spring, after all), the oil pump can put out a couple hundred psi or
(much) more if the check valve sticks shut. *That* will blow out the oil
filter! Real fast, and quite spectactularly! And it will make a mess as
oil under high pressure sprays all over the place. And if you don't catch
it in time and just keep running the engine, in a few moments the engine
itself will quite nicely sieze.

I don't see what you are trying to say. If you have seen a filter blow,
don't you think it would be more likely to happen if the vehicle also had
the wrong oil, temps were extremely cold, and revving the engine? I think
those three things would surely raise the chance of blowing the filter.

Those three things would only raise the chance of blowing the filter if
something else was wrong in the first place. If nothing else is wrong, those
three things would not mean anything. You can't blow a filter unless the
pressure is too high, and the oil pump keeps the pressure from being too
high, even if the oil is cold and thick and the engine is revved.

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 18:34:33 -0500, Metspitzer
wrote:

Do new cars still come with break in oil? Did they ever? I have
always heard that the oil that came with a new car should be changed
sooner.

I just checked the owners manual of a new Honda and found no special
instructions for the first oil change.

I've always changed mine after the first 1000 miles and then every
3000 miles. I've stuck with Castrol.

On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 13:23:58 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Jules wrote:
On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:06:40 -0500, Tony wrote:
No, the filters don't bypass when cold or reved. The oil pressure
regulator does. Two totally fdifferent animals.
I thought at least some filters have a bypass in them?

Maybe. The last old car I had used a cartridge filter (i.e. the cartridge
was replacable, but the housing was retained - unlike modern filters
where the whole filter can is swapped). The cartridge was held in
place under spring tension by what was essentially a valve - too much
pressure (or a blocked filter) and the valve would open.

Whether any modern "all in one" filters have a built-in mechanism
like that though, I don't know.

cheers

Jules


Do you remember the toilet paper oil filter cartridge kits?
It was a reusable filter replacement for the spin on throw
away filters. I saw ads for them but never got my hands on
one of them. Some toilet tissues I've come across remind me
of oil filter media material. OUCH!

TDD
The "toylet paper filter" was NOT a full-flow filter. It is a "bypass"
filter that only filters the oil a bit at a time and returns it to the
sump. In other words, the oil does not get filtered and sent to the
workings of the engine from that filter.

On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 15:06:54 -0500, Tony
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:06:40 -0500, Tony
wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 19:22:16 -0500, Tony
wrote:

Zootal wrote:
"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news In article ,
Tony wrote:


I also go with the 3K mile oil change. Many say it's a waste, but what
the hell, in the 70,000 miles I have on that van, oil changes have only
cost me about $500. An estimated $700 every 100,000 miles? That I can
afford for peace of mind. If I can afford about $14,000. in
gasoline/100000 miles, the oil changes are a drop in the bucket.
I buy the oil and filter at 3k, and end up procrastinating until it's
about 3500. Twice I've let it go to 4500, and the oil I drain out is
significantly dirtier. I don't like dirt in my oil.
The particles that you see in the oil that cause it to look "dirty" are too
small to hurt anything. They remain in suspension and never come between
metal pieces, and therefore don't cause wear. The oil filter will remove
anything big enough to cause any damage.

I used to work at a gas station, and I remember once this old famer coming
in. We checked his oil, he took a look at the dip stick, rubbed it between
his fingers, and goes "yep, feels gritty, must be time for an oil change".
By then I had learned to just keep my mouth shut, smile and change the oil.
There was no way we could ever convince him that "gritty" oil would destroy
the engine in about five minutes flat. He was happy, and his oil got changed
when it needed to ...

Some industrial equipment have pressure guages across the oil filter, and
they don't change the oil filter until it's plugged enough that a certain
amount of pressure develops across it. The reasoning is that a filter
partilly plugged filters finer particles then a brand new one. They won't
change the filter until right before it starts to bypass. I don't think they
do that today - easier to just replace it regularly rather then watch the
pressure guage and catch it shortly before it bypasses.
Most auto engines oil filters bypass oil even when the filter is brand
new. They do it when the engine is cold and also when the motor is
revved past a certain point.
No, the filters don't bypass when cold or reved. The oil pressure
regulator does. Two totally fdifferent animals.
I thought at least some filters have a bypass in them? Maybe not but
yes on the pressure regulator, wasn't thinking, just typing.

MOST filters have a bypass on them, but they are set to bypass when
the pressure difference across the filter gets too high (blocked
filter) GENERALLY they do not come into play from cold, and virtually
never because of high engine speed (which increases oil flow - and
therefore pressure across the engine clearances, but not the filter.)

All oil filters restrict oil flow. Some more and some less. If they
didn't, they couldn't filter. Cold oil is less fluid and causes the
pressure difference to increase. Revving the engine pumps oil faster.
Wherever there is a restriction the greater the pressure difference.

One very cold day I saw a guy at work start his car. He always revved
it up when it started, and he only used 30 weight oil. That cold day
the oil filter blew out from all the pressure and he had quite a mess to
clean up and a filter to replace. I suppose the bypass or regulator in
the motor was a little too little, or a little to slow opening up.


Again, nothing to do with the filter bypass. Although in extreme cold
with thick oil, the bypass COULD come into play, it would have NO
EFFECT on the problem you noted - blowing the filter off.

On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 12:39:56 -0800, "Zootal"
wrote:


"dpb" wrote in message
...
Tony wrote:
...

... Cold oil is less fluid and causes the pressure difference to
increase. ...

Which is why any modern vehicle will specify multi-grade oil. There the
viscosity is modified by the additives to _not_ increase drastically w/
temperature...

The failure you state was an extreme aberration at best; I'd think it more
than likely it was a case of either wrong oil or cheap filter or
combination of both and perhaps other causes as well...

--

I seriously doubt that revving the engine on a cold startup with 30w oil
would blow the fitler. The oil pump pressure valve would limit the pressure
to 60-80psi or so, no matter how cold or thick the oil is.

You might think so, but a 20Wx oil at -40 in a slant six dodge can
pruduce oil pressures up around the 200psi range on initial startup.
This is because at that temperature the pressure releif (or regulator)
valve can be extremely reluctant to move.
Don't need to rev the engine either

I've blown a filter off a slant 6 myself (20W50 in Winnipeg, of all
the stupid things) and have also seen it happen numerous times with
straight 20W20 oil at -20F - on other brands. On mine it blew off at
IDLE.
Also had the oil pump drive on a Ford 351 twist off in a similar
situation.

The filter can
take a lot more pressure than that. I can think of several things that will
blow a filter - faulty installation or the wrong filter can blow out the
gasket. A defective filter could blow, but that is pretty unlikely. My next
vote would be that the oil pump pressure valve stuck shut. I've seen that
happen - it is extremely rare, but on a cold tight engine with heavy oil and
a sticky valve (it's just a ball and a spring, after all), the oil pump can
put out a couple hundred psi or (much) more if the check valve sticks shut.
*That* will blow out the oil filter! Real fast, and quite spectactularly!
And it will make a mess as oil under high pressure sprays all over the
place. And if you don't catch it in time and just keep running the engine,
in a few moments the engine itself will quite nicely sieze.

On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 13:09:47 -0800, "Zootal"
wrote:


"Tony" wrote in message
...
Zootal wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message
...
Tony wrote:
...

... Cold oil is less fluid and causes the pressure difference to
increase. ...
Which is why any modern vehicle will specify multi-grade oil. There the
viscosity is modified by the additives to _not_ increase drastically w/
temperature...

The failure you state was an extreme aberration at best; I'd think it
more than likely it was a case of either wrong oil or cheap filter or
combination of both and perhaps other causes as well...

--

I seriously doubt that revving the engine on a cold startup with 30w oil
would blow the fitler. The oil pump pressure valve would limit the
pressure to 60-80psi or so, no matter how cold or thick the oil is. The
filter can take a lot more pressure than that. I can think of several
things that will blow a filter - faulty installation or the wrong filter
can blow out the gasket. A defective filter could blow, but that is
pretty unlikely. My next vote would be that the oil pump pressure valve
stuck shut. I've seen that happen - it is extremely rare, but on a cold
tight engine with heavy oil and a sticky valve (it's just a ball and a
spring, after all), the oil pump can put out a couple hundred psi or
(much) more if the check valve sticks shut. *That* will blow out the oil
filter! Real fast, and quite spectactularly! And it will make a mess as
oil under high pressure sprays all over the place. And if you don't catch
it in time and just keep running the engine, in a few moments the engine
itself will quite nicely sieze.

I don't see what you are trying to say. If you have seen a filter blow,
don't you think it would be more likely to happen if the vehicle also had
the wrong oil, temps were extremely cold, and revving the engine? I think
those three things would surely raise the chance of blowing the filter.

Those three things would only raise the chance of blowing the filter if
something else was wrong in the first place. If nothing else is wrong, those
three things would not mean anything. You can't blow a filter unless the
pressure is too high, and the oil pump keeps the pressure from being too
high, even if the oil is cold and thick and the engine is revved.


In your dreams.

wrote:
On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 13:23:58 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Jules wrote:
On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:06:40 -0500, Tony wrote:
No, the filters don't bypass when cold or reved. The oil pressure
regulator does. Two totally fdifferent animals.
I thought at least some filters have a bypass in them?
Maybe. The last old car I had used a cartridge filter (i.e. the cartridge
was replacable, but the housing was retained - unlike modern filters
where the whole filter can is swapped). The cartridge was held in
place under spring tension by what was essentially a valve - too much
pressure (or a blocked filter) and the valve would open.

Whether any modern "all in one" filters have a built-in mechanism
like that though, I don't know.

cheers

Jules

Do you remember the toilet paper oil filter cartridge kits?
It was a reusable filter replacement for the spin on throw
away filters. I saw ads for them but never got my hands on
one of them. Some toilet tissues I've come across remind me
of oil filter media material. OUCH!

TDD
The "toylet paper filter" was NOT a full-flow filter. It is a "bypass"
filter that only filters the oil a bit at a time and returns it to the
sump. In other words, the oil does not get filtered and sent to the
workings of the engine from that filter.

Like I wrote, I never got to play with one. I wonder, if you use
scented toilet paper, will it make the oil smell nice? It's never
helped my backside especially when I backfire.

TDD

wrote:
This is because at that temperature the pressure releif (or regulator)
valve can be extremely reluctant to move.

Exactly! Having the wrong oil means there IS something wrong with the
engine. It has the wrong oil! And it makes the bypass move a little,
or a lot slower and presto, blown oil filter.


Ever try to pull start a little briggs engine with straight 30 weight
oil in the middle of winter. You better believe things move slow.