"Edward A. Falk" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Chris Friesen wrote:

However, going by various comments written by people in the industry,
there also seems to be a cultural impetus to try and push the lower
boundaries of the quality standards. So if a Chinese factory contracts
for a given level of quality there is a tendency for that level to drop
over time unless the company that hired them keeps on top of things.

Keeping on top of things is the key. A friend of mine had a product
made in China. He spec'ed fire-resistant plastic for the casing. As
soon as his back was turned, they switched to cheaper plastic and his
house (where he was storing his inventory) burned down as a result.

How did plastic casings which were not fire resistant cause his house to
burn down? One suspects there was a Lot of inflammable stuff in his house.

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...

"Tony Hwang" wrote:
Hmmm,
Made U.S.A. Made in EU" Really? 100%?
Economy stands on bottom line these days.
You can't **** China, she is too big/powerful now.

You don't usually **** your banker or a big customer.

Lew





A more apt analogy for China is our national cocaine dealer.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "J. Clarke"
wrote:

As for European engineering in general, anybody who thinks that it's all
high quality hasn't fettled a brand new British-made Stanley shoulder
plane.

Or owned a Fiat...


Or an MG ...

CW wrote:
"Swingman" wrote in message
...
HeyBub wrote:
Swingman wrote:
Jules wrote:

They'll build what they're paid to build, no more and no less.
There are talented folk there, same as anywhere else
They are excellent copy cats, but there is NOTHING like European
engineering for built-in quality, from handsaws and screwdrivers,
to spaceships.

The Europeans built a spaceship? I think Flash Gordon was an
American...

Last I heard, the Europeans were trying to put up their own GPS
satellite system - for reasons passing understanding.

Tsk, tsk ... you get into space on "rockets", Bubba ... Wernher Von
Braun

Yes, the success of the American space program was due to imports.
They imported Germany's best scientists.

So what percentage of the engineers working on Apollo were German?

Hint--go to Youtube and search on "Disney Moon" and you'll find that the
concept that Von Braun was pushing pre-Apollo was considerably different
from what actually flew (and before you make some ignorant sneering remark
about Disney, do the search and watch the episode).

Poisoning our pets and kids with their intentional addition of melamine
to baby formula, dog food, cereal and milk.

STILL putting dangerous levels (as if there is a "safe" level) of lead
paint on most of the toys they export.

Chinese drywall was fun too. Everything from electrical appliances to
baby furniture, blankets clothing and teething rings are constantly
being recalled, but I guess you're right. They unfairly get a bad
reputation. We should just man up and buy their dangerous goods. What
the hell, we all gotta die from something right?


And lets not forget that we lost 2 million jobs to China during the Bush
years.

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 18:00:32 -0800, "CW"
wrote:


"Swingman" wrote in message
m...
HeyBub wrote:
Swingman wrote:
Jules wrote:

They'll build what they're paid to build, no more and no less. There
are talented folk there, same as anywhere else
They are excellent copy cats, but there is NOTHING like European
engineering for built-in quality, from handsaws and screwdrivers, to
spaceships.

The Europeans built a spaceship? I think Flash Gordon was an American...

Last I heard, the Europeans were trying to put up their own GPS satellite
system - for reasons passing understanding.

Tsk, tsk ... you get into space on "rockets", Bubba ... Wernher Von Braun

Yes, the success of the American space program was due to imports. They
imported Germany's best scientists.
And Canada's. All the brains behind the Avro Arrow put the Yanks into
space and onto the moon.
Strategic move on the part of the Americans to pressure Dief into
canning the Arrow.

On Dec 16, 1:39*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
This post is aimed at all you sinophobes out there.

I'm getting a little tired of hearing the complaint "___ is a piece of
****: what do you expect? It's made in China!".

Apparently some folks are having trouble with the concept of the
current global economy; and the history of our own manufacturing
problems.

Today, there are relatively few items truly manufactured in USA,
China, Japan, Mexico or anywhere. To slam a product just because it
is made in Taiwan or China doesn't make sense anymore especially when
you look at metal and woodworking tools sold by companies like
Grizzly. Many of the parts and castings in "old American" products
like Powermatic now come from the east. Much of the airframe and
wiring in venerable aircraft like the Beech Bonanza and King Air are
manufactured in Mexico and assembled in Kansas; avionics guts come
from the east. Most electronic components used in fine old American
TVs and audio components come from China, Japan or Korea.

On the other side, a complete lapse in U.S. quality control, during
the 1970's, allowed the Japanese to to run completely over the US auto
industry. But now look at Toyota. They are building cars, to high
standards, at several U.S. facilities. This is probably good because
the high cost of maintaining union demands has all but shut down
Detroit and other auto manufacturing centers. This is doubly tragic
because Detroit was finally starting to build some quality cars again.

The world is changing and made in ("anywhere") is a thing of the
past. We have seen a strong trend toward survival of the fittest
during the past year and those who can produce quality at a reasonable
cost will probably win (or be taken over by government).

My job is to take care of my business by buying the best I can with
what I have. If I can buy the same quality and function for 20-40%
less the decision is easy.

RonB

"CW" wrote:

Yes, the success of the American space program was due to imports.
They imported Germany's best scientists.

The same is true of digital photography and fiber optics.

Both developed in the US by non US citizens.

Lew

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
...
snip

Snip

Only poor craftsman blames the tool.



Oh crap! I have heard the me too expression way too many times now.

Really and truly a poor craftsman "does not recognize" that he is not
working with quality tools.
A fine craftsman will remedy that situation with quality work through
quality tools.

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:39:07 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

Part of the problem is that we're placing blame in the wrong place. The
*real* problem seems to be "Made in [anyplace] but designed in the U.S.
[or some other place]". A lot, if not most, of what I would call
"Chinese junk" is actually made as well as the design would allow for,
including the materials used and the amount of labor committed to
finishing the item. So in many cases Chinese factories are making
faithful copies of a ****ty design that may well have come from some
designer's computah right here in The Greatest Industrial Power on Earth
(the US of A)

I agree that the blame is being placed in the wrong place. However,
you and I don't agree on where it should be placed.

Too many consumers buy on price alone. Quality is only a concern when
the item fails. Often the replacement item is bought with the same
emphasis on price.

Until a higher percentage of consumers are willing to pay more for
quality we won't be able to find a better product at a consumer
outlet.

That is why places like Wal-Mart, K-mart, Home Depot, Menards and
others like them are able to thrive.

Gordon Shumway

Our Constitution needs to be used less as a shield
for the guilty and more as a sword for the victim.

In article ,
Swingman wrote:

Jules wrote:

They'll build what they're paid to build, no more and no less. There are
talented folk there, same as anywhere else

They are excellent copy cats, but there is NOTHING like European
engineering for built-in quality, from handsaws and screwdrivers, to
spaceships.

The Europeans have yet to make a reliable car.

Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
Swingman wrote:

Jules wrote:

They'll build what they're paid to build, no more and no less. There are
talented folk there, same as anywhere else
They are excellent copy cats, but there is NOTHING like European
engineering for built-in quality, from handsaws and screwdrivers, to
spaceships.

The Europeans have yet to make a reliable car.

WHAT??? LOL ... surely you jest??

Over 60 years ago one of the most reliable and efficient automobiles
known to mankind, and to this day the best selling car in history, hit
the ground running ... the "Volkswagen".

Sheessh, it's sad, this total failure of the educational system and the
resultant ignorance!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Most any fool knows there are exceptions to everything ... it is the
thickheaded cavilers who continue to harp on the exceptions to show
their asses and ignorance.

Arguably, we were standing on the shoulders of giants when it came to
innovative engineering and quality, for much, if not most of "New World"
engineering impetus which resulted in the much vaunted "Made in USA"
label of the 20th century, was due to European immigration to the
America's, bringing their traditions going back to craftsman's guilds
and their pioneering of early engineering principles in Europe since
Roman times.

AAMOF, Canada, almost alone in the America's today with products like
Veritas, seems to still exhibit manifestations of these traditions;
instead of the price point engineered, MBA driven POS being produced by
Chinese proxy for the United Corporations of America.

As far as many woodworking tools today, it is a FACT that if you really
want quality, innovation, and excellence in engineering, you look first
to European manufacturers like Festool, a shining example of innovation
and quality through engineering which you will find no place else on
earth in this, the first decade of the 21st century.

It's sad, but a fact ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Dec 16, 7:26*pm, Dave Balderstone
wrote:
In article , J. Clarke



wrote:
CW wrote:
"Swingman" wrote in message
m...
HeyBub wrote:
Swingman wrote:
Jules wrote:

They'll build what they're paid to build, no more and no less.
There are talented folk there, same as anywhere else
They are excellent copy cats, but there is NOTHING like European
engineering for built-in quality, from handsaws and screwdrivers,
to spaceships.

The Europeans built a spaceship? I think Flash Gordon was an
American...

Last I heard, the Europeans were trying to put up their own GPS
satellite system - for reasons passing understanding.

Tsk, tsk ... you get into space on "rockets", Bubba ... Wernher Von
Braun

Yes, the success of the American space program was due to imports.
They imported Germany's best scientists.

So what percentage of the engineers working on Apollo were German?

Hint--go to Youtube and search on "Disney Moon" and you'll find that the
concept that Von Braun was pushing pre-Apollo was considerably different
from what actually flew (and before you make some ignorant sneering remark
about Disney, do the search and watch the episode).

A surprising number of the best NASA scientists and engineers came from
Canada after the Avro Arrow project was canceled by the Diefenbaker
Conservative government.

http://www.avroarrow.org/AvroArrow/Avroengineers.html

Not to discount the contribution of these aforementioned Canadian
engineers but realistically how many were enticed to come to the US
AND how many US scientists and engineers were working at NASA at the
time? (also consider the number of S & E's working for contractors as
well)

Did these Canadian engineers represent 1%? 5% 10% 25% ?

cheers
Bob

"Swingman" wrote in message
news
Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
Swingman wrote:

Jules wrote:

They'll build what they're paid to build, no more and no less. There
are
talented folk there, same as anywhere else
They are excellent copy cats, but there is NOTHING like European
engineering for built-in quality, from handsaws and screwdrivers, to
spaceships.

The Europeans have yet to make a reliable car.

WHAT??? LOL ... surely you jest??

Over 60 years ago one of the most reliable and efficient automobiles known
to mankind, and to this day the best selling car in history, hit the
ground running ... the "Volkswagen".

Well, there was the little problem with the number three cylinder ...

Tony Hwang wrote:
Swingman wrote:
Tony Hwang wrote:

You can't **** China, she is too big/powerful now.

When "she" starts making quality, innovative, well engineered tools like
Festool does I'll start buying Chinese. Until then, in a tool buying
sense, **** China, and the US also ... just in case you think there is
discrimination involved.

People who work with their hands know the difference ... keep that in
mind.

Hi,
I am not Chinese, LOL!


I thought you were a Canuck, eh?

TDD

Dave Balderstone wrote:
In article , J. Clarke
wrote:

CW wrote:
"Swingman" wrote in message
...
HeyBub wrote:
Swingman wrote:
Jules wrote:

They'll build what they're paid to build, no more and no less.
There are talented folk there, same as anywhere else
They are excellent copy cats, but there is NOTHING like European
engineering for built-in quality, from handsaws and screwdrivers,
to spaceships.
The Europeans built a spaceship? I think Flash Gordon was an
American...

Last I heard, the Europeans were trying to put up their own GPS
satellite system - for reasons passing understanding.
Tsk, tsk ... you get into space on "rockets", Bubba ... Wernher Von
Braun

Yes, the success of the American space program was due to imports.
They imported Germany's best scientists.
So what percentage of the engineers working on Apollo were German?

Hint--go to Youtube and search on "Disney Moon" and you'll find that the
concept that Von Braun was pushing pre-Apollo was considerably different
from what actually flew (and before you make some ignorant sneering remark
about Disney, do the search and watch the episode).

A surprising number of the best NASA scientists and engineers came from
Canada after the Avro Arrow project was canceled by the Diefenbaker
Conservative government.

http://www.avroarrow.org/AvroArrow/Avroengineers.html

Didn't they all come here to Alabamastan to work on them dang rockets?

TDD

RonB wrote:
On Dec 16, 1:39 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
This post is aimed at all you sinophobes out there.

I'm getting a little tired of hearing the complaint "___ is a piece of
****: what do you expect? It's made in China!".

Apparently some folks are having trouble with the concept of the
current global economy; and the history of our own manufacturing
problems.

Today, there are relatively few items truly manufactured in USA,
China, Japan, Mexico or anywhere. To slam a product just because it
is made in Taiwan or China doesn't make sense anymore especially when
you look at metal and woodworking tools sold by companies like
Grizzly. Many of the parts and castings in "old American" products
like Powermatic now come from the east. Much of the airframe and
wiring in venerable aircraft like the Beech Bonanza and King Air are
manufactured in Mexico and assembled in Kansas; avionics guts come
from the east. Most electronic components used in fine old American
TVs and audio components come from China, Japan or Korea.

On the other side, a complete lapse in U.S. quality control, during
the 1970's, allowed the Japanese to to run completely over the US auto
industry. But now look at Toyota. They are building cars, to high
standards, at several U.S. facilities. This is probably good because
the high cost of maintaining union demands has all but shut down
Detroit and other auto manufacturing centers. This is doubly tragic
because Detroit was finally starting to build some quality cars again.

The world is changing and made in ("anywhere") is a thing of the
past. We have seen a strong trend toward survival of the fittest
during the past year and those who can produce quality at a reasonable
cost will probably win (or be taken over by government).

My job is to take care of my business by buying the best I can with
what I have. If I can buy the same quality and function for 20-40%
less the decision is easy.

RonB


When a country taxes and regulates business to death, what happens?
When labor unions become too big for their britches and so corrupt
that their behavior holds businesses hostage to their demands, the
business owners vote with their feet and go someplace else.

TDD

"Swingman" wrote:

Over 60 years ago one of the most reliable and efficient automobiles
known to mankind, and to this day the best selling car in history,
hit the ground running ... the "Volkswagen".

How many did you own?

Reliability was NOT my experience with a diesel Rabbit.

Lew


Lew

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "J. Clarke"
wrote:

As for European engineering in general, anybody who thinks that it's
all high quality hasn't fettled a brand new British-made Stanley
shoulder plane.

Or owned a Fiat...

I'm the original owner of my 1973 Fiat 124 Spyder. It was my only car until
recently. It has been driven down steam beds in Mexico, over mountains,
across deserts, etc. It still runs and looks great. Biggest problem I've
had with it is "mechanics" screwing up stuff; surprising since it is so
mechanically simple but they manage.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 12/16/2009 3:03 PM Percival P. Cassidy spake thus:

IIRC. I'm not sure that Kodak was considered a serious
photographer's camera.

Kodak did make some cameras used by serious photogs, even after the
Japanese kicked our asses in that arena, but they were mostly obscure
models used by specialists. Like their view (studio) cameras and
lenses made for aerial photography, to name a couple. Their one
top-of-the-line 35mm camera (the Ektra) was already out of production
by that time.

The Medalist was "pro" too.
___________

After that, about the best they could come up with were consumer-level
cameras, like the Instamatic, which they did sell by the millions. But
all high-quality stuff was, as you point out, either German (Leica,
Voigtlander), Swedish (Hassy), or, mostly, Japanese (lessee: Nikon,
Canon, Ricoh, Minolta, Miranda, Yashica, Olympus, Bronica, Fuji,
etc., etc.

You forgot Asahi. The Pentax was/is under rated.
____________

The single exception I can think of is the Graflex press cameras
(Crown and Speed Graphics), made here in the US and used around the
world up through the 1970s.

Thank heavens they expired

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 07:50:17 -0500, "dadiOH"
wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "J. Clarke"
wrote:

As for European engineering in general, anybody who thinks that it's
all high quality hasn't fettled a brand new British-made Stanley
shoulder plane.

Or owned a Fiat...

I'm the original owner of my 1973 Fiat 124 Spyder. It was my only car until
recently. It has been driven down steam beds in Mexico, over mountains,
across deserts, etc. It still runs and looks great. Biggest problem I've
had with it is "mechanics" screwing up stuff; surprising since it is so
mechanically simple but they manage.

Many years ago I had a Fiat 124 Spyder. I called it the Fiat 124
Lemon. I did buy it used so perhaps it was just maintained terribly,
but almost every other week something went wrong. The alternator died,
the string operating the clutch broke, the transmission developed
problems, and just endless crap.

I guess it just depends on when it got put together.

RonB wrote:
On Dec 16, 1:39 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
This post is aimed at all you sinophobes out there.

I'm getting a little tired of hearing the complaint "___ is a piece of
****: what do you expect? It's made in China!".

Apparently some folks are having trouble with the concept of the
current global economy; and the history of our own manufacturing
problems.

Today, there are relatively few items truly manufactured in USA,
China, Japan, Mexico or anywhere. To slam a product just because it
is made in Taiwan or China doesn't make sense anymore especially when
you look at metal and woodworking tools sold by companies like
Grizzly. Many of the parts and castings in "old American" products
like Powermatic now come from the east. Much of the airframe and
wiring in venerable aircraft like the Beech Bonanza and King Air are
manufactured in Mexico and assembled in Kansas; avionics guts come
from the east. Most electronic components used in fine old American
TVs and audio components come from China, Japan or Korea.

On the other side, a complete lapse in U.S. quality control, during
the 1970's, allowed the Japanese to to run completely over the US auto
industry. But now look at Toyota. They are building cars, to high
standards, at several U.S. facilities. This is probably good because
the high cost of maintaining union demands has all but shut down
Detroit and other auto manufacturing centers. This is doubly tragic
because Detroit was finally starting to build some quality cars again.

The world is changing and made in ("anywhere") is a thing of the
past. We have seen a strong trend toward survival of the fittest
during the past year and those who can produce quality at a reasonable
cost will probably win (or be taken over by government).

My job is to take care of my business by buying the best I can with
what I have. If I can buy the same quality and function for 20-40%
less the decision is easy.

RonB


I think most folks are oblivious when it comes to the issues of cheap
vs. economical.....there is a huge difference.

I worked a few years in case management of Workers Compensation claims.
One employer had a dedicated department with about 16 nurses doing the
same work. I was the only one with experience in WC. One nurse denied
a $2 claim for a laxative for a client who needed pain medication for
serious burns. Narcotic pain meds cause constipation. My supv. was
constantly asking for paperwork after each client visit with physicians;
it was her first priority. Physicians don't sit down and type a report
after examining a patient - they dictate the report, it goes to a
transcription service, and gets published when it is ready. I didn't
bug my physicians for paperwork or anything else; in return, they picked
up the phone and called ME when there was an issue of interest,
including phony claims. I never chose a physician or provider based on
price....I regularly paid taxi fare to send a client out of town if the
appropriate specialist was not nearby. I saved $100K in one year (20%)
when I stopped using a particular "company doctor".

Unfortunately, the price of everything made in the US includes paying
for healthcare and the tremendous waste in the system - just fighting
over work-relatedness costs billions. If we had a one-payer system
(like Medicare), with built in serious audits, we could make cheaper
good stuff. Ain't gonna happen any time soon.

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"CW" wrote:

Yes, the success of the American space program was due to imports.
They imported Germany's best scientists.

The same is true of digital photography and fiber optics.

Both developed in the US by non US citizens.

Lew



Who? Educated where?

"Dave Balderstone" wrote in message
news:161220092126090752%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderst one.ca...

A surprising number of the best NASA scientists and engineers came from
Canada after the Avro Arrow project was canceled by the Diefenbaker
Conservative government.

http://www.avroarrow.org/AvroArrow/Avroengineers.html


Considering that they were getting a better offer than staying in Canada,
the numbers may not be so suprising. What may be suprising is the number of
Canadian sientists that Canada could not hold on to.

"Swingman" wrote in message
news

Over 60 years ago one of the most reliable and efficient automobiles known
to mankind, and to this day the best selling car in history, hit the
ground running ... the "Volkswagen".

I will have to disagree with you there. Kim and I bought a new 99 Jetta, it
left her stranded on the freeway 3 times under warranty the first 18 months,
and a dead battery replaced under warranty. That was the Mexico built
vehicle. Towed into the dealership and "no problem found " on the 3 rd time
we immediately traded for a German built 2000 Passat. We almost kept it 4
years. While we had it, it left Kim stranded 2 times, once was a faulty
starter relay, the second time another dead battery replaced by me. Then
there were numerous emissions problems, the need to replace both outer tie
rod ends at 30K, and the heater core at 43K. The transmission was showing
signs of failure. Traded for the 04 Accord at 47K. Both vehicles were
serviced more often than recommended by the dealer. The 99 Jetta and 2000
Passat were serviced/oil changed at 3K VW recommended every 10K. After
trading the Passat we got a factory letter rewording service intervals for
the turbo, every 3K and with synthetic oil. I saw that coming.

I bought the VW's on their past reputation.

Maybe my first VW's were a fluke but I'll probably never buy another.




Sheessh, it's sad, this total failure of the educational system and the
resultant ignorance!

Totally agree with that and I attribute the failure to poor teachers that
don't give a **** and that finally led to teachers that could not find a job
any where else. Long ago when teachers could step in as a parent and
administer discipline he or she could actually teach. We have lost teachers
that actually taught for baby sitters.

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...

"Swingman" wrote:

Over 60 years ago one of the most reliable and efficient automobiles
known to mankind, and to this day the best selling car in history, hit
the ground running ... the "Volkswagen".

How many did you own?

2, too many.

Reliability was NOT my experience with a diesel Rabbit.

Same with the Jetta and the Passat, BIL was not happy with his Passat
either, trans problems.

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...

Your reefer may be in the same mode.


Reefer? ;~)

Leon wrote:
"Swingman" wrote in message
news
Over 60 years ago one of the most reliable and efficient automobiles known
to mankind, and to this day the best selling car in history, hit the
ground running ... the "Volkswagen".

I will have to disagree with you there. Kim and I bought a new 99 Jetta, it
left her stranded on the freeway 3 times under warranty the first 18 months,
and a dead battery replaced under warranty. That was the Mexico built
vehicle. Towed into the dealership and "no problem found " on the 3 rd time
we immediately traded for a German built 2000 Passat. We almost kept it 4
years. While we had it, it left Kim stranded 2 times, once was a faulty
starter relay, the second time another dead battery replaced by me. Then
there were numerous emissions problems, the need to replace both outer tie
rod ends at 30K, and the heater core at 43K. The transmission was showing
signs of failure. Traded for the 04 Accord at 47K. Both vehicles were
serviced more often than recommended by the dealer. The 99 Jetta and 2000
Passat were serviced/oil changed at 3K VW recommended every 10K. After
trading the Passat we got a factory letter rewording service intervals for
the turbo, every 3K and with synthetic oil. I saw that coming.

I bought the VW's on their past reputation.

The "Volkswagen", the original design, is what I was talking about. Not
the price point engineered models they started making to woo and placate
the American consumer with the junk they prefer.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Swingman" wrote:

Over 60 years ago one of the most reliable and efficient automobiles
known to mankind, and to this day the best selling car in history,
hit the ground running ... the "Volkswagen".

How many did you own?

Two of the most reliable and economical cars I have ever owned, one late
50's model in Europe, and the other a 1960, both original design, and
probably still running today.

Reliability was NOT my experience with a diesel Rabbit.

No wonder ... it was designed to give the American consumer the price
point designed trash he prefers.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:
Snip


I bought the VW's on their past reputation.

The "Volkswagen", the original design, is what I was talking about. Not
the price point engineered models they started making to woo and placate
the American consumer with the junk they prefer.

Exactly!



--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

dgk wrote:
On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 07:50:17 -0500, "dadiOH"
wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "J. Clarke"
wrote:

As for European engineering in general, anybody who thinks that
it's all high quality hasn't fettled a brand new British-made
Stanley shoulder plane.

Or owned a Fiat...

I'm the original owner of my 1973 Fiat 124 Spyder. It was my only
car until recently. It has been driven down steam beds in Mexico,
over mountains, across deserts, etc. It still runs and looks great.
Biggest problem I've had with it is "mechanics" screwing up stuff;
surprising since it is so mechanically simple but they manage.

Many years ago I had a Fiat 124 Spyder. I called it the Fiat 124
Lemon. I did buy it used so perhaps it was just maintained terribly,
but almost every other week something went wrong. The alternator died,
the string operating the clutch broke, the transmission developed
problems, and just endless crap.

I guess it just depends on when it got put together.

I used to have an X1/9. Lovely little car, only repair I ever needed to
make on it other than routine maintenance was the thermostat. I'd likely
still be driving it if some asshole hadn't stolen it. Not at all like my
one Toyota, that had a single scheduled maintenance item--at 10,000 miles
replace engine.

Leon wrote:
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...

Your reefer may be in the same mode.


Reefer? ;~)

Navy talk for "refrigerator".

On 2009-12-17, dgk wrote:

Many years ago I had a Fiat 124 Spyder. I called it the Fiat 124
Lemon. I did buy it used so perhaps it was just maintained terribly,
but almost every other week something went wrong. The alternator died,
the string operating the clutch broke, the transmission developed
problems, and just endless crap.

I guess it just depends on when it got put together.

Yes, the Italians make Ferraris and $80K shotguns, etc. They also
make Fiats. You want the real survivability lowdown on Fiat. I'm
from sunny CA where cars NEVER RUST!. If it's worth a damn, it will
last forever. In the early 70s, after I got out of the service, CA
roads were lousy with Fiats 850s and 124s. It was a craze and ppl
bought them by the ship load. They were as common as VW bugs. Thirty
years later, they are rarer than an honest politician. In fact, in
the last 5 yrs I spent commuting 70 miles a day on SFBA freeways, I
was stunned to see a single running 850 Spyder, it having been so long
since seeing one, I'd actually forgotten they'd ever existed. Pre-70
Borgwards are more common. If Fiat reliability is any indication of
European quality engineering, Chrysler is screwed!

nb

On 2009-12-17, Swingman wrote:

What nonsense? ... you can't be that dense, eh? **** happens in every
country, culture, civilization - past, present, and future.

Well, duh! That was pretty much my point.

nb

On 2009-12-17, Lew Hodgett wrote:

Your reefer may be in the same mode.

But, is paying $800 for a more efficient ....read energy conserving,
not colder.... gonna save you any money? Not likely before it dies
and you need to spend another $800 another new one.

nb

Leon wrote:
"Swingman" wrote in message
news

Over 60 years ago one of the most reliable and efficient automobiles
known to mankind, and to this day the best selling car in history,
hit the ground running ... the "Volkswagen".

I will have to disagree with you there. Kim and I bought a new 99
Jetta, it left her stranded on the freeway 3 times under warranty the
first 18 months, and a dead battery replaced under warranty. That
was the Mexico built vehicle. Towed into the dealership and "no
problem found " on the 3 rd time we immediately traded for a German
built 2000 Passat. We almost kept it 4 years. While we had it, it
left Kim stranded 2 times, once was a faulty starter relay, the
second time another dead battery replaced by me. Then there were
numerous emissions problems, the need to replace both outer tie rod
ends at 30K, and the heater core at 43K. The transmission was
showing signs of failure. Traded for the 04 Accord at 47K. Both
vehicles were serviced more often than recommended by the dealer.
The 99 Jetta and 2000 Passat were serviced/oil changed at 3K VW
recommended every 10K. After trading the Passat we got a factory
letter rewording service intervals for the turbo, every 3K and with
synthetic oil. I saw that coming.

I bought the VW's on their past reputation.

Maybe my first VW's were a fluke but I'll probably never buy another.

You folks who are going on about "Rabbits" and "Jettas" and suchlike are
missing the point.

THE Volkswagen, the Type I, aka the Beetle, aka the Porsche Type 60, was in
continuous production for over 60 years with more than 20 million built,
both the longest and largest production runs in automotive history.

Sheessh, it's sad, this total failure of the educational system and
the resultant ignorance!

Totally agree with that and I attribute the failure to poor teachers
that don't give a **** and that finally led to teachers that could
not find a job any where else. Long ago when teachers could step in
as a parent and administer discipline he or she could actually teach.
We have lost teachers that actually taught for baby sitters.

Uh, you might want to actually get drunk with a few teachers sometime before
you blame them. They have to do what they can with what they've got and
what they've got these days isn't much (and I'm not talking about the kids,
I'm talking about the rules they are required to work under). Wanna fix
education, first shoot all the professors of education and all the school
boards.

On 2009-12-17, The Daring Dufas wrote:

Didn't they all come here to Alabamastan to work on them dang rockets?

Heh heh.... and I doubt there were too many folks named Homer Hickam
defecting to the US from the Nazi rocket program.

nb

Caesar Romano wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:12:26 -0500, "
wrote Re Rethinking "Made in China":

I'm getting a little tired of hearing the complaint "___ is a piece
of ****: what do you expect? It's made in China!".

Well, that's what the said about Japanese stuff in the late 50's. I
expect the same result from China.

They are on the way up, and we are on the way down.

Nope. They do what they do best; we do what we do best. Then we trade.
Everybody gains.

So what do we do best?
1. Grow stuff
2. Make movies
3. Design and build airplanes
4. Create software
5. Wage war
6. Other things

On 2009-12-17, Swingman wrote:

thickheaded cavilers who continue to harp on the exceptions to show
their asses and ignorance.

.....as opposed to baseless dogma spewed by narrow minded twits who
refuse to see beyond personal prejudices.

nb