I'm building a detached garage with 2nd story living space that is
about 14 feet from the house. The two are connected by the deck that
also wraps around the house. Basically you go between the house and
garage via the deck. I powered the garage via a 100amp breaker on the
main box to a subpanel in the garage.

But I've also installed an outdoor light fixture on the door of the
garage that opens on to the deck. And I extended the 3-way switches
out to a box just inside the door. I did this by running two pieces
of uf, 14/3 and 14/2 out to the garage inside the deck joists.

So I have a lighting circuit from the house system extended into the
garage and not sharing any of the wiring connections in the garage off
it's subpanel. Is this ok code wise? If not is there a way to make
it ok?

jamesgangnc wrote:
....
So I have a lighting circuit from the house system extended into the
garage and not sharing any of the wiring connections in the garage off
it's subpanel. Is this ok code wise? If not is there a way to make
it ok?

Don't see anything electrically in violation so as long as the
workmanship, etc., meets provisions looks ok to me.

Would recommend a label on circuit at switch where it's breaker is just
for posterity.

--

On 11/9/2009 11:11 AM jamesgangnc spake thus:

But I've also installed an outdoor light fixture on the door of the
garage that opens on to the deck. And I extended the 3-way switches
out to a box just inside the door. I did this by running two pieces
of uf, 14/3 and 14/2 out to the garage inside the deck joists.

Don't know the answer to the question you asked here, but I wonder about
using UF as you did: is it OK to have it exposed like this? I thought it
was only supposed to be buried, as its name suggests.

Seems like conduit would be the way to go here.


--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?

- harvested from Usenet

On Nov 9, 2:23*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 11/9/2009 11:11 AM jamesgangnc spake thus:

But I've also installed an outdoor light fixture on the door of the
garage that opens on to the deck. *And I extended the 3-way switches
out to a box just inside the door. *I did this by running two pieces
of uf, 14/3 and 14/2 out to the garage inside the deck joists.

Don't know the answer to the question you asked here, but I wonder about
using UF as you did: is it OK to have it exposed like this? I thought it
was only supposed to be buried, as its name suggests.

Seems like conduit would be the way to go here.

--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?

- harvested from Usenet

Uf does not have to be buried but I can't say for sure if my putting
it under a deck is acceptable or not. The deck joists are 2x10's and
I have stapled the uf on the inside of one up close to the decking.
So it would be very difficult to damage.

The problem with conduit is then I have to transition to the inside
wiring. That means an accessible box at each end inside the two
structures where the conduit cables can be spliced to normal 14/2 and
14/2. Or running the conduit inside the walls all the way to the
boxes. Not very practical on the house side because it is all old
work. Just seemed a lot simpler to use the uf so I could run all the
way.

jamesgangnc wrote:
....
Uf does not have to be buried but I can't say for sure if my putting
it under a deck is acceptable or not. The deck joists are 2x10's and
I have stapled the uf on the inside of one up close to the decking.
So it would be very difficult to damage.

I don't have a problem w/ it assuming as you say it's well protected;
but then again, I'm not your local inspector...

The problem with conduit is then I have to transition to the inside
wiring. That means an accessible box at each end inside the two
structures where the conduit cables can be spliced to normal 14/2 and
14/2. Or running the conduit inside the walls all the way to the
boxes. Not very practical on the house side because it is all old
work. Just seemed a lot simpler to use the uf so I could run all the
way.

Which harkens back to my comment earlier about workmanship. What are
you doing at the entrance(s) now and where are these penetrations?

Would seem there would be the termination/transition points.

--

On Nov 9, 3:21*pm, dpb wrote:
jamesgangnc wrote:

...

Uf does not have to be buried but I can't say for sure if my putting
it under a deck is acceptable or not. *The deck joists are 2x10's and
I have stapled the uf on the inside of one up close to the decking.
So it would be very difficult to damage.

I don't have a problem w/ it assuming as you say it's well protected;
but then again, I'm not your local inspector...

The problem with conduit is then I have to transition to the inside
wiring. *That means an accessible box at each end inside the two
structures where the conduit cables can be spliced to normal 14/2 and
14/2. *Or running the conduit inside the walls all the way to the
boxes. *Not very practical on the house side because it is all old
work. *Just seemed a lot simpler to use the uf so I could run all the
way.

Which harkens back to my comment earlier about workmanship. *What are
you doing at the entrance(s) now and where are these penetrations?

Would seem there would be the termination/transition points.

--

Penetration is 3/4" holes drilled through the framing. Both sides
have 2 by lumber inside, 1/2" sheathing, and 2 by pt lumber outside.
Both holes are clean and the wire passed through easily. I stapled it
at both sides of the holes. Seems just like any other holes through a
doubled joist or framing lumber. I did not transition the uf, I ran
it inside the walls to the boxes. I don't know of any reason uf can
not be usd inside? The boxes are located pretty much right above
where the wire comes into each structure. So I have no splices.

"jamesgangnc" wrote in message
...
I'm building a detached garage with 2nd story living space that is
about 14 feet from the house. The two are connected by the deck that
also wraps around the house. Basically you go between the house and
garage via the deck. I powered the garage via a 100amp breaker on the
main box to a subpanel in the garage.

But I've also installed an outdoor light fixture on the door of the
garage that opens on to the deck. And I extended the 3-way switches
out to a box just inside the door. I did this by running two pieces
of uf, 14/3 and 14/2 out to the garage inside the deck joists.

So I have a lighting circuit from the house system extended into the
garage and not sharing any of the wiring connections in the garage off
it's subpanel. Is this ok code wise? If not is there a way to make
it ok?


Do you have any squirrel insulation eaters? ww

"jamesgangnc" wrote in message
...
On Nov 9, 3:21 pm, dpb wrote:
jamesgangnc wrote:

...

Uf does not have to be buried but I can't say for sure if my putting
it under a deck is acceptable or not. The deck joists are 2x10's and
I have stapled the uf on the inside of one up close to the decking.
So it would be very difficult to damage.

I don't have a problem w/ it assuming as you say it's well protected;
but then again, I'm not your local inspector...

The problem with conduit is then I have to transition to the inside
wiring. That means an accessible box at each end inside the two
structures where the conduit cables can be spliced to normal 14/2 and
14/2. Or running the conduit inside the walls all the way to the
boxes. Not very practical on the house side because it is all old
work. Just seemed a lot simpler to use the uf so I could run all the
way.

Which harkens back to my comment earlier about workmanship. What are
you doing at the entrance(s) now and where are these penetrations?

Would seem there would be the termination/transition points.

--

Penetration is 3/4" holes drilled through the framing. Both sides
have 2 by lumber inside, 1/2" sheathing, and 2 by pt lumber outside.
Both holes are clean and the wire passed through easily. I stapled it
at both sides of the holes. Seems just like any other holes through a
doubled joist or framing lumber. I did not transition the uf, I ran
it inside the walls to the boxes. I don't know of any reason uf can
not be usd inside? The boxes are located pretty much right above
where the wire comes into each structure. So I have no splices.

The UF cable is fine. It must be protected from physical damage, which
you've done by stapling it on to the side of the framing.

"jamesgangnc" wrote in message
...
I'm building a detached garage with 2nd story living space that is
about 14 feet from the house. The two are connected by the deck that
also wraps around the house. Basically you go between the house and
garage via the deck. I powered the garage via a 100amp breaker on the
main box to a subpanel in the garage.

But I've also installed an outdoor light fixture on the door of the
garage that opens on to the deck. And I extended the 3-way switches
out to a box just inside the door. I did this by running two pieces
of uf, 14/3 and 14/2 out to the garage inside the deck joists.

So I have a lighting circuit from the house system extended into the
garage and not sharing any of the wiring connections in the garage off
it's subpanel. Is this ok code wise? If not is there a way to make
it ok?


If your feeder contains separate neutral and grounding conductors, which
are separated in the garage sub panel, and a grounding electrode system is
installed at the garage and bonded to the grounding buss in the garage
panel, your 3 way system should be fine.

On 2009-11-09, jamesgangnc wrote:

I'm building a detached garage with 2nd story living space that is
about 14 feet from the house. The two are connected by the deck
that also wraps around the house. Basically you go between the
house and garage via the deck. I powered the garage via a 100amp
breaker on the main box to a subpanel in the garage.

This is an interesting situation and a judgement call: does the deck
connecting the two habitable spaces make the whole thing one
structure? You should ask your local electrical inspector. If it is
one structure, then there is no extra complexity, so let's assume for
discussion they are separate structures.

Given two structures, did you install the required grounding electrode
system at the garage? Did you provide a main disconnect, or arrange
for six or less breakers in the garage subpanel? I assume you used a
4 wire feeder and kept the grounds and neutrals separate.

But I've also installed an outdoor light fixture on the door of the
garage that opens on to the deck. And I extended the 3-way switches
out to a box just inside the door.

See http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=105699 Apparently
225.30(D) of the 2008 NEC allows what you have installed.

I did this by running two pieces of uf, 14/3 and 14/2 out to the
garage inside the deck joists.

Hopefully you stayed 1.25" away from the edge of the deck joists, as
is required when running parallel to the framing members.

I'm curious to ask why you needed to run 14/3 and 14/2 to the garage
3-way switch. 14/3 would have been enough to provide two travelers
and a common; what does the 14/2 provide? If you were to provide
power for any other garage loads from the 14/3 and 14/2 UF, then that
would be a violation of 225.30.

Cheers,
Wayne

On Nov 9, 3:50*pm, Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2009-11-09, jamesgangnc wrote:

I'm building a detached garage with 2nd story living space that is
about 14 feet from the house. *The two are connected by the deck
that also wraps around the house. *Basically you go between the
house and garage via the deck. *I powered the garage via a 100amp
breaker on the main box to a subpanel in the garage.

This is an interesting situation and a judgement call: does the deck
connecting the two habitable spaces make the whole thing one
structure? *You should ask your local electrical inspector. *If it is
one structure, then there is no extra complexity, so let's assume for
discussion they are separate structures.

Given two structures, did you install the required grounding electrode
system at the garage? *Did you provide a main disconnect, or arrange
for six or less breakers in the garage subpanel? *I assume you used a
4 wire feeder and kept the grounds and neutrals separate.

But I've also installed an outdoor light fixture on the door of the
garage that opens on to the deck. *And I extended the 3-way switches
out to a box just inside the door.

See http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=105699 *Apparently
225.30(D) of the 2008 NEC allows what you have installed.

I did this by running two pieces of uf, 14/3 and 14/2 out to the
garage inside the deck joists.

Hopefully you stayed 1.25" away from the edge of the deck joists, as
is required when running parallel to the framing members.

I'm curious to ask why you needed to run 14/3 and 14/2 to the garage
3-way switch. *14/3 would have been enough to provide two travelers
and a common; what does the 14/2 provide? *If you were to provide
power for any other garage loads from the 14/3 and 14/2 UF, then that
would be a violation of 225.30.

Cheers,
Wayne

Not part of my question, but yes, I ran 4 conductors in conduit from
the main panel to the panel in the garage. I have a main breaker in
the garage panel. I tried to keep it to 6 breakers but I couldn't.
The garage has a heat pump with backup resistance heat and its own hot
water heater. Neutral and ground are separated in the garage panel.

I ran the 14/3 uf to the three way switch. The existing switch in the
house was a 3-way at the termination of a 14/3. I replace it with a 4-
way and continued on with the new piece of 14/3 to the new 3-way in
the garage. The 14/2 uf runs from the existing outside light circuit
in the house to the exterior light fixture on the garage just ouside
the entrance door on the deck.

The house does not have "front" and "rear" doors, rather it has doors
on each side of it with the deck wrapping around one side. In this
old picture the garage is now located where you see stairs in the
lower right corner. I wanted a person located in either structure to
be able to turn on the outside lights on the deck.

http://www.jamesgangnc.com/bighouse.jpg

jamesgangnc wrote:
....
Penetration is 3/4" holes drilled through the framing. Both sides
have 2 by lumber inside, 1/2" sheathing, and 2 by pt lumber outside.
Both holes are clean and the wire passed through easily. I stapled it
at both sides of the holes. Seems just like any other holes through a
doubled joist or framing lumber. I did not transition the uf, I ran
it inside the walls to the boxes. I don't know of any reason uf can
not be usd inside? The boxes are located pretty much right above
where the wire comes into each structure. So I have no splices.

"Seems like" as compared to "is" as per Code aren't necessarily at all
the same...

I don't know the specific Code section pertaining to that issue otomh;
I'd think it might be addressed to require weatherhead or similar
protection at entrance to/from a structure.

My concerns would have to do w/ weather protection and possible rodent
damage or similar as well as those unsealed holes being accesses for
insects, etc., besides the air leakage from a HVAC standpoint. Again,
how concerned I'd be would have to do w/ where they're physically
located wrt to the rest of the structure(s), ground, etc,. etc., etc.,
none of which have anything specific to go on. And, while not big, it
is a break in a fire barrier.

You are correct in that there is nothing wrong at all about using the UF
internal structure; it's simply more than required there.

Again, I'm not an inspector nor even terribly knowledgeable about the
details of Code other than the basics to "get safe" as opposed to
"fully-compliant" and certainly on the farmstead have places where
expediency has played a role.

But, at an entrance/exit like this I'm pretty sure I'd have at least put
a weather seal on the outside at each location in a residential location
unless it is really very well protected and I'd think there wouldn't be
a vermin problem, etc., as mentioned (but out here, we got enough stuff
that anywhere there's a nook or cranny there's gonna' be some
critter/bug/whatever ya' don't want inside looking at it as a wonderful
place to nest or use as a freeway. I've been other places that
wasn't such a big deal as didn't seem to have so many pests for some
reason (or at least different ones; we don't have squirrels here to put
up with is one advantage. )

--

On 2009-11-09, jamesgangnc wrote:

Not part of my question, but yes, I ran 4 conductors in conduit from
the main panel to the panel in the garage. I have a main breaker in
the garage panel. I tried to keep it to 6 breakers but I couldn't.
The garage has a heat pump with backup resistance heat and its own
hot water heater. Neutral and ground are separated in the garage
panel.

All sounds great, although you didn't mention anything about a
grounding electrode system at the garage.

I ran the 14/3 uf to the three way switch. The existing switch in
the house was a 3-way at the termination of a 14/3. I replace it
with a 4- way and continued on with the new piece of 14/3 to the new
3-way in the garage. The 14/2 uf runs from the existing outside
light circuit in the house to the exterior light fixture on the
garage just ouside the entrance door on the deck.

So you have:

House Garage Garage House Other House
Power --14/2-- Light --14/3-- 3-way --14/3-- 4-way --14/3-- 3/4-way
Fixture Switch Switch Switches

That makes sense and explains having both a 14/2 and 14/3 between the
house and garage.

So to reiterate the answer to your original question is that NEC
225.30(D) provides the necessary exception in your case to allow both
a feeder and branch circuit to serve the garage from the house. For
good measure, you could put a note on the main disconnect on the
garage warning that the exterior light and switch are served by a
separate branch circuit from the house, although it is not required.

Cheers,
Wayne

Wayne Whitney wrote:
....
Wayne, you obviously know Code particulars at least reasonably well,
what about the question of the mechanics of the penetration thru the
exterior walls? Does that have any specific provision? Seems like
would, but I don't know if does or where it would be other than for a
service entrance which this lighting circuit isn't.

--

On 2009-11-09, dpb wrote:

Wayne, you obviously know Code particulars at least reasonably well,
what about the question of the mechanics of the penetration thru the
exterior walls? Does that have any specific provision?

I can't be 100% sure, but I don't think the National Electrical Code
would address that. If your building rots out, the NEC probably won't
care, as long as the cable isn't exposed to damage. :-) Maybe the
building code would address penetrations? Common sense says the
penetrations should be weather tight and properly flashed.

Cheers, Wayne

On Nov 9, 6:09*pm, Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2009-11-09, dpb wrote:

Wayne, you obviously know Code particulars at least reasonably well,
what about the question of the mechanics of the penetration thru the
exterior walls? *Does that have any specific provision?

I can't be 100% sure, but I don't think the National Electrical Code
would address that. *If your building rots out, the NEC probably won't
care, as long as the cable isn't exposed to damage. *:-) Maybe the
building code would address penetrations? *Common sense says the
penetrations should be weather tight and properly flashed.

Cheers, Wayne

The penetration under the house is in the crawl. I usually squirt
some caulk or stuff a bit of fiberglass into the holes. The crawl is
by no means completely sealed now.

Your list of items basically captures what I have but there is also
house fixtures on the same switches. On the house walls where the
deck is there are 6 wall mounted light fixtures. There are no
additional switches, in the house a 3 way and a 4 way, in the garage a
3 way. In the picture you can see a couple of the wall fixtures on
the windows. It's a lake house, that's why the "back" has all the
windows and the ext doors enter form the sides.

Truth be told I am still installing the garage feeder system. I do
have the conduit and wires run and a box put up. I still need to
install ground rods at the garage. It's 2 now isn't it? That seems
pointless to me. Perhaps it's to provide redundancy after the
satellite tv guy disconnects one of them, yukyuk.

jamesgangnc wrote:

I still need to
install ground rods at the garage. It's 2 now isn't it? That seems
pointless to me. Perhaps it's to provide redundancy after the
satellite tv guy disconnects one of them, yukyuk.

Ground rods are a rather poor electrode. The NEC requires a resistance
to earth of 25 ohms or less for a rod. If not, a second rod is added and
there is no required resistance. Resistance is not easy to measure, so
it is easier to install 2 rods. For new house construction a "concrete
encased electrode" is usually required, which is a good electrode and
eliminates the ground rods.

--
bud--

On Nov 10, 9:53*am, bud-- wrote:
jamesgangnc wrote:

I still need to
install ground rods at the garage. *It's 2 now isn't it? *That seems
pointless to me. *Perhaps it's to provide redundancy after the
satellite tv guy disconnects one of them, yukyuk.

Ground rods are a rather poor electrode. The NEC requires a resistance
to earth of 25 ohms or less for a rod. If not, a second rod is added and
there is no required resistance. Resistance is not easy to measure, so
it is easier to install 2 rods. For new house construction a "concrete
encased electrode" is usually required, which is a good electrode and
eliminates the ground rods.

--
bud--

The earth's not really much of a conductor for low voltage, low cycle
ac anyway. I have serious reservations that a short from a "hot"
conductor directly to an earth ground would pop even a 10 amp breaker.

jamesgangnc wrote:
On Nov 10, 9:53 am, bud-- wrote:
jamesgangnc wrote:

I still need to
install ground rods at the garage. It's 2 now isn't it? That seems
pointless to me. Perhaps it's to provide redundancy after the
satellite tv guy disconnects one of them, yukyuk.
Ground rods are a rather poor electrode. The NEC requires a resistance
to earth of 25 ohms or less for a rod. If not, a second rod is added and
there is no required resistance. Resistance is not easy to measure, so
it is easier to install 2 rods. For new house construction a "concrete
encased electrode" is usually required, which is a good electrode and
eliminates the ground rods.

--
bud--

The earth's not really much of a conductor for low voltage, low cycle
ac anyway. I have serious reservations that a short from a "hot"
conductor directly to an earth ground would pop even a 10 amp breaker.

The earth connection is not intended to trip a breaker (and such a use
is not allowed by the NEC). There has to be a metal path starting and
ending at the transformer. That involves the neutral-ground connection
required at US services. If you have a drill with a ground wire, and
there is a hot-to-case short, the path is drill ground wire to branch
circuit ground wire through service neutral-ground bond to service
neutral wire to transformer. Much of the "ground" wire function is a
"bonding" function. The term "ground" does not help understanding this
function.

Your garage has a ground wire back to the house service. Some older
garages don't have a ground wire, but the feeder neutral and garage
grounds are bonded at the garage, just like at the service. (No longer
allowed in new wiring.)

The "earthing" function of the "ground" keeps the house voltage at a
reasonable potential with respect to the earth, provides a sink for some
surges, and is likely to blow high voltage fuses if a high voltage
distribution wire crosses with the wires to houses.

--
bud--

On 2009-11-10, jamesgangnc wrote:

Your list of items basically captures what I have but there is also
house fixtures on the same switches.

That's fine, it doesn't change anything I said.

I still need to install ground rods at the garage. It's 2 now isn't
it?

You need a grounding electrode system, which consists of
interconnecting _all_ the electrodes present. Then if there aren't
enough present, you need to add more. See NEC article 250 part III,
starting at 250.50.

Common electrodes a qualifying rebar or a 20' length of bare #4
copper wire in the footer of a foundation (required for new
construction, otherwise only if accessible), any metallic water pipe
that is buried for at least 10', and ground rods. The first one
(called a concrete encased electrode, or CEE) is deemed adequate by
itself; the other two are not adequate by themselves are require a
second electrode (which could be a ground rod).

Hope this helps.

Cheers, Wayne

On Nov 9, 2:23*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 11/9/2009 11:11 AM jamesgangnc spake thus:

But I've also installed an outdoor light fixture on the door of the
garage that opens on to the deck. *And I extended the 3-way switches
out to a box just inside the door. *I did this by running two pieces
of uf, 14/3 and 14/2 out to the garage inside the deck joists.

Don't know the answer to the question you asked here, but I wonder about
using UF as you did: is it OK to have it exposed like this? I thought it
was only supposed to be buried, as its name suggests.

Seems like conduit would be the way to go here.

--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?

- harvested from Usenet

David
All of the type UF cable presently sold in the US is listed and
labeled as sunlight resistant and is perfectly acceptable for exposed
runs except were subject to physical damage. I have used a fair
amount of type UF as indoor wiring in barns were it's resistance to
moisture and the corrosive fumes of animal waste make it the cost
effective cable of choice.
--
Tom Horne

On Nov 10, 11:10*am, bud-- wrote:
The "earthing" function of the "ground" keeps the house voltage at a
reasonable potential with respect to the earth, provides a sink for some
surges, and is likely to blow high voltage fuses if a high voltage
distribution wire crosses with the wires to houses.

That's the part that doesn't do anything for me. What's the real
point in any ground rods, etc at the building. Isn't there a ground
rod of some sort at the transformer 100' away. How much potential
difference could develop between the house and the transformer?

jamesgangnc wrote:
On Nov 10, 11:10 am, bud-- wrote:
The "earthing" function of the "ground" keeps the house voltage at a
reasonable potential with respect to the earth, provides a sink for some
surges, and is likely to blow high voltage fuses if a high voltage
distribution wire crosses with the wires to houses.

That's the part that doesn't do anything for me. What's the real
point in any ground rods, etc at the building. Isn't there a ground
rod of some sort at the transformer 100' away. How much potential
difference could develop between the house and the transformer?

If you have a water pipe or concrete encased electrode you have a much
better earthing electrode than is at the transformer.

If there is a very near lightning strike, like at a tree, the potential
of the earth at the transformer and your house could be many tens of
thousands of volts different. Grounding electrodes at your house pull
the potential of the wiring in your house nearer the earth potential at
your house (which is the potential of concrete basement floors and
walls). Even though your garage is very near your house, there could be
a difference of many thousands of volts between the earth at the house
and garage.

If lightning hits the utility pole there is an even bigger difference
between the earth potential at the pole (and utility wires) and your house.

Earthing at the house helps protect against surges coming in on power,
cable and phone wires.

Around here I have seen missing copper wire to the earthing electrode at
utility poles where it has been stolen.

--
bud--