I have an L-shaped hallway with:

a ceiling light in the middle of each leg
a light switch at the end of each leg
a light switch at the intersection.

Several years ago, I used to be able to turn the lights on and off
from any switch. But now the lights can be turned on and off by only
one switch (at the end of one leg).

In previous attempts to resolve this problem, I replaced all of the
switches but I didn't record what wires went to each terminal.

Question: What kind of new switches do I need (single-pole, 3-way, 4-
way) and how many of each?

How do I determine what wire connects to each terminal of each switch?

On Nov 6, 10:35*am, gcotterl wrote:
I have an L-shaped hallway with:

* * *a ceiling light in the middle of each leg
* * *a light switch at the end of each leg
* * *a light switch at the intersection.

Several years ago, I used to be able to turn the lights on and off
from any switch. *But now the lights can be turned on and off by only
one switch (at the end of one leg).

In previous attempts to resolve this problem, I replaced all of the
switches but I didn't record what wires went to each terminal.

Question: *What kind of new switches do I need (single-pole, 3-way, 4-
way) and how many of each?

How do I determine what wire connects to each terminal of each switch?

You need two three way switches and one four way (or you can use three
four way switches and just disregard one terminal on each.)

To determine how to hook them up, you'd have to open up all the boxes
and puzzle out the wiring. There's many different ways they could be
hooked up and it is difficult to determine from here which you have

nate

"N8N" wrote in message
...
On Nov 6, 10:35 am, gcotterl wrote:
I have an L-shaped hallway with:

a ceiling light in the middle of each leg
a light switch at the end of each leg
a light switch at the intersection.

Several years ago, I used to be able to turn the lights on and off
from any switch. But now the lights can be turned on and off by only
one switch (at the end of one leg).

In previous attempts to resolve this problem, I replaced all of the
switches but I didn't record what wires went to each terminal.

Question: What kind of new switches do I need (single-pole, 3-way, 4-
way) and how many of each?

How do I determine what wire connects to each terminal of each switch?

You need two three way switches and one four way (or you can use three
four way switches and just disregard one terminal on each.)

To determine how to hook them up, you'd have to open up all the boxes
and puzzle out the wiring. There's many different ways they could be
hooked up and it is difficult to determine from here which you have

nate

You can't use a four way as a substitute for a 3-way. There's no common
terminal on a four way switch.

On Nov 6, 10:52*am, N8N wrote:
On Nov 6, 10:35*am, gcotterl wrote:





I have an L-shaped hallway with:

* * *a ceiling light in the middle of each leg
* * *a light switch at the end of each leg
* * *a light switch at the intersection.

Several years ago, I used to be able to turn the lights on and off
from any switch. *But now the lights can be turned on and off by only
one switch (at the end of one leg).

In previous attempts to resolve this problem, I replaced all of the
switches but I didn't record what wires went to each terminal.

Question: *What kind of new switches do I need (single-pole, 3-way, 4-
way) and how many of each?

How do I determine what wire connects to each terminal of each switch?

You need two three way switches and one four way (or you can use three
four way switches and just disregard one terminal on each.)

To determine how to hook them up, you'd have to open up all the boxes
and puzzle out the wiring. *There's many different ways they could be
hooked up and it is difficult to determine from here which you have

nate- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm counting only 2 switches. I had same problem and learned that you
have to replace exact wires on switch when you replace a switch.

I kept playing around with it and finally an electrician with his
meter figured it out for nothing as he was making an appraisal on
another job for me.

On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 17:19:22 GMT, "Joe" wrote:


"N8N" wrote in message
...
On Nov 6, 10:35 am, gcotterl wrote:
I have an L-shaped hallway with:

a ceiling light in the middle of each leg
a light switch at the end of each leg
a light switch at the intersection.

Several years ago, I used to be able to turn the lights on and off
from any switch. But now the lights can be turned on and off by only
one switch (at the end of one leg).

In previous attempts to resolve this problem, I replaced all of the
switches but I didn't record what wires went to each terminal.

Question: What kind of new switches do I need (single-pole, 3-way, 4-
way) and how many of each?

How do I determine what wire connects to each terminal of each switch?

You need two three way switches and one four way (or you can use three
four way switches and just disregard one terminal on each.)

To determine how to hook them up, you'd have to open up all the boxes
and puzzle out the wiring. There's many different ways they could be
hooked up and it is difficult to determine from here which you have

nate

You can't use a four way as a substitute for a 3-way. There's no common
terminal on a four way switch.


Sure you can; any of the 4 terminals can be the common, with the
travelers connected to the opposite 2 (and the one directly across
unused).

To the OP, you need to continuity-check the wires to figure out which
ones are the "travelers" -- these go between the switches only. The
original 3-way switch locations will have 2 travelers, the 4-way
location will have 4 travelers (2 each connected to the 2 at each
3-way location).

Google "4 way switch diagram" and you'll find more information --
there are many ways to run the physical wires, but they all degenerate
to the same switching flow.

Josh

"Josh" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 17:19:22 GMT, "Joe" wrote:


"N8N" wrote in message
...
On Nov 6, 10:35 am, gcotterl wrote:
I have an L-shaped hallway with:

a ceiling light in the middle of each leg
a light switch at the end of each leg
a light switch at the intersection.

Several years ago, I used to be able to turn the lights on and off
from any switch. But now the lights can be turned on and off by only
one switch (at the end of one leg).

In previous attempts to resolve this problem, I replaced all of the
switches but I didn't record what wires went to each terminal.

Question: What kind of new switches do I need (single-pole, 3-way, 4-
way) and how many of each?

How do I determine what wire connects to each terminal of each switch?

You need two three way switches and one four way (or you can use three
four way switches and just disregard one terminal on each.)

To determine how to hook them up, you'd have to open up all the boxes
and puzzle out the wiring. There's many different ways they could be
hooked up and it is difficult to determine from here which you have

nate

You can't use a four way as a substitute for a 3-way. There's no common
terminal on a four way switch.


Sure you can; any of the 4 terminals can be the common, with the
travelers connected to the opposite 2 (and the one directly across
unused).

To the OP, you need to continuity-check the wires to figure out which
ones are the "travelers" -- these go between the switches only. The
original 3-way switch locations will have 2 travelers, the 4-way
location will have 4 travelers (2 each connected to the 2 at each
3-way location).

Google "4 way switch diagram" and you'll find more information --
there are many ways to run the physical wires, but they all degenerate
to the same switching flow.

Josh

Josh,

How? if you number the terminals on a 4 way as 1 through 4, the hot ones
are 1 and 3 when the switch is in one position and the hots are 2 and 4 when
the switch is in the other position. There is not one terminal that is
'common'. If there's no common, then you don't have a terminal that goes
from the switch to the fixture (or, for that matter, there's no common for
the originating hot). If I'm misunderstanding this, please help me out.

On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 18:12:08 GMT, "Joe" wrote:

Josh,

How? if you number the terminals on a 4 way as 1 through 4, the hot ones
are 1 and 3 when the switch is in one position and the hots are 2 and 4 when
the switch is in the other position. There is not one terminal that is
'common'. If there's no common, then you don't have a terminal that goes
from the switch to the fixture (or, for that matter, there's no common for
the originating hot). If I'm misunderstanding this, please help me out.


The 4-way switch just passes through or crosses the wires from one
side to the other, depending on position. Putting 1 and 2 on the top,
and 3 and 4 on the bottom of the switch:

Switch down: 1 - 3, 2 - 4
Switch up: 1 - 4, 2 - 3

So to use as a 3-way, use terminal 1 as common, 3 and 4 for the
travelers, leaving 2 unused

Switch up: 1 - 3
Switch down: 1 - 4

Which is exactly what a 3-way switch does (and you can start from any
of the terminals as common, with the 2 furthest away for the
travelers).

Some diagrams of 3 and 4 way switch wiring:

http://www.ezdiyelectricity.com/?page_id=381

Josh

"Josh" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 18:12:08 GMT, "Joe" wrote:

Josh,

How? if you number the terminals on a 4 way as 1 through 4, the hot ones
are 1 and 3 when the switch is in one position and the hots are 2 and 4
when
the switch is in the other position. There is not one terminal that is
'common'. If there's no common, then you don't have a terminal that goes
from the switch to the fixture (or, for that matter, there's no common for
the originating hot). If I'm misunderstanding this, please help me out.


The 4-way switch just passes through or crosses the wires from one
side to the other, depending on position. Putting 1 and 2 on the top,
and 3 and 4 on the bottom of the switch:

Switch down: 1 - 3, 2 - 4
Switch up: 1 - 4, 2 - 3

So to use as a 3-way, use terminal 1 as common, 3 and 4 for the
travelers, leaving 2 unused

Switch up: 1 - 3
Switch down: 1 - 4

Which is exactly what a 3-way switch does (and you can start from any
of the terminals as common, with the 2 furthest away for the
travelers).

Some diagrams of 3 and 4 way switch wiring:

http://www.ezdiyelectricity.com/?page_id=381

Josh

In every instance in the diagrams you posted, there is no terminal that is
always 'in use' on any of the 4 way switches. There is no common.

In this diagram:
http://ezdiyelectricity.com/images/w...am-600x420.jpg
the terminals (1 & 2 on top, 3 & 4 on bottom), the terminals used are either
1 and 4 (top left and bottom right), or if the switch is thrown, 2 & 3 (top
right and bottom left). which terminal is the common?

On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 18:12:08 GMT, Joe wrote:

How? if you number the terminals on a 4 way as 1 through 4, the hot ones
are 1 and 3 when the switch is in one position and the hots are 2 and 4 when
the switch is in the other position. There is not one terminal that is
'common'. If there's no common, then you don't have a terminal that goes
from the switch to the fixture (or, for that matter, there's no common for
the originating hot). If I'm misunderstanding this, please help me out.

a three way switch is a single pole double throw (S.P.D.T.) switch:
input A, outputs B and C
Switch up: A connects to B
Switch down: A connects to C


a four way switch is a double pole double throw (D.P.D.T.) switch with
a cross connected internal connection:

inputs A and B. Outputs C and D
Switch up: A connects to C, B conects to D
Switch down: A connects to D, B conects to C

To use a 4 way siwtch as a 3 way switch, leave one input (B) unconnected.
UP: A connects to C. Down: A connects to D.

On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 18:41:09 GMT, "Joe" wrote:


"Josh" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 18:12:08 GMT, "Joe" wrote:

Josh,

How? if you number the terminals on a 4 way as 1 through 4, the hot ones
are 1 and 3 when the switch is in one position and the hots are 2 and 4
when
the switch is in the other position. There is not one terminal that is
'common'. If there's no common, then you don't have a terminal that goes
from the switch to the fixture (or, for that matter, there's no common for
the originating hot). If I'm misunderstanding this, please help me out.


The 4-way switch just passes through or crosses the wires from one
side to the other, depending on position. Putting 1 and 2 on the top,
and 3 and 4 on the bottom of the switch:

Switch down: 1 - 3, 2 - 4
Switch up: 1 - 4, 2 - 3

So to use as a 3-way, use terminal 1 as common, 3 and 4 for the
travelers, leaving 2 unused

Switch up: 1 - 3
Switch down: 1 - 4

Which is exactly what a 3-way switch does (and you can start from any
of the terminals as common, with the 2 furthest away for the
travelers).

Some diagrams of 3 and 4 way switch wiring:

http://www.ezdiyelectricity.com/?page_id=381

Josh

In every instance in the diagrams you posted, there is no terminal that is
always 'in use' on any of the 4 way switches. There is no common.

In this diagram:
http://ezdiyelectricity.com/images/w...am-600x420.jpg
the terminals (1 & 2 on top, 3 & 4 on bottom), the terminals used are either
1 and 4 (top left and bottom right), or if the switch is thrown, 2 & 3 (top
right and bottom left). which terminal is the common?



That's because the diagrams are only showing one position of the
switch (crossed); when the switch is in the other position, the switch
connects the top 2 terminals (in that diagram) together, and the
bottom 2 terminals together. That makes any of the terminals common
to the 2 terminals opposite it.

This set of diagrams shows the actual operation of the circuit better:

http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/sw...WayStills.html

Josh

On Nov 6, 12:20*pm, Frank wrote:
On Nov 6, 10:52*am, N8N wrote:





On Nov 6, 10:35*am, gcotterl wrote:

I have an L-shaped hallway with:

* * *a ceiling light in the middle of each leg
* * *a light switch at the end of each leg
* * *a light switch at the intersection.

Several years ago, I used to be able to turn the lights on and off
from any switch. *But now the lights can be turned on and off by only
one switch (at the end of one leg).

In previous attempts to resolve this problem, I replaced all of the
switches but I didn't record what wires went to each terminal.

Question: *What kind of new switches do I need (single-pole, 3-way, 4-
way) and how many of each?

How do I determine what wire connects to each terminal of each switch?

You need two three way switches and one four way (or you can use three
four way switches and just disregard one terminal on each.)

To determine how to hook them up, you'd have to open up all the boxes
and puzzle out the wiring. *There's many different ways they could be
hooked up and it is difficult to determine from here which you have

nate- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm counting only 2 switches. *I had same problem and learned that you
have to replace exact wires on switch when you replace a switch.

I kept playing around with it and finally an electrician with his
meter figured it out for nothing as he was making an appraisal on
another job for me.

I used to live in a house that I was renting from a guy who had
"updated" the electricals (translation: he had replaced the switches
and receptacles.) Unfortunately he wasn't real careful wiring up the
three way switches, and to make matters worse, the house had old cloth
covered wiring which meant that all the wires were a dirty brownish-
grey color

I figured out how to make the hall lights work properly in an
afternoon, but it's one of those things, I can *do* it but God help
you if you want me to show you *how.* Worse yet if I have to do it
over the Internet...

Probably the easiest thing is to pull everything out of the wall,
disconnect everything, and first identify which wire is still hot
(after you turn the breaker back on, because you turned it off before
you started, right? RIGHT?)

From there, hopefully everything will be self evident (pay special
attention to which individual wires come from which cables) but if
not, either hooking up a 3-way at the "hot" location and continuing to
the other locations and/or using a 9V battery and a test light can
help trace out what goes where.

good luck

nate

"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 18:12:08 GMT, Joe wrote:

How? if you number the terminals on a 4 way as 1 through 4, the hot ones
are 1 and 3 when the switch is in one position and the hots are 2 and 4
when
the switch is in the other position. There is not one terminal that is
'common'. If there's no common, then you don't have a terminal that goes
from the switch to the fixture (or, for that matter, there's no common for
the originating hot). If I'm misunderstanding this, please help me out.

a three way switch is a single pole double throw (S.P.D.T.) switch:
input A, outputs B and C
Switch up: A connects to B
Switch down: A connects to C


a four way switch is a double pole double throw (D.P.D.T.) switch with
a cross connected internal connection:

inputs A and B. Outputs C and D
Switch up: A connects to C, B conects to D
Switch down: A connects to D, B conects to C

To use a 4 way siwtch as a 3 way switch, leave one input (B) unconnected.
UP: A connects to C. Down: A connects to D.


Ok, I had a different understanding of the internal workings. thanks for
clarifying.

"Josh" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 18:41:09 GMT, "Joe" wrote:


"Josh" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 18:12:08 GMT, "Joe" wrote:

Josh,

How? if you number the terminals on a 4 way as 1 through 4, the hot
ones
are 1 and 3 when the switch is in one position and the hots are 2 and 4
when
the switch is in the other position. There is not one terminal that is
'common'. If there's no common, then you don't have a terminal that
goes
from the switch to the fixture (or, for that matter, there's no common
for
the originating hot). If I'm misunderstanding this, please help me
out.


The 4-way switch just passes through or crosses the wires from one
side to the other, depending on position. Putting 1 and 2 on the top,
and 3 and 4 on the bottom of the switch:

Switch down: 1 - 3, 2 - 4
Switch up: 1 - 4, 2 - 3

So to use as a 3-way, use terminal 1 as common, 3 and 4 for the
travelers, leaving 2 unused

Switch up: 1 - 3
Switch down: 1 - 4

Which is exactly what a 3-way switch does (and you can start from any
of the terminals as common, with the 2 furthest away for the
travelers).

Some diagrams of 3 and 4 way switch wiring:

http://www.ezdiyelectricity.com/?page_id=381

Josh

In every instance in the diagrams you posted, there is no terminal that is
always 'in use' on any of the 4 way switches. There is no common.

In this diagram:
http://ezdiyelectricity.com/images/w...am-600x420.jpg
the terminals (1 & 2 on top, 3 & 4 on bottom), the terminals used are
either
1 and 4 (top left and bottom right), or if the switch is thrown, 2 & 3
(top
right and bottom left). which terminal is the common?



That's because the diagrams are only showing one position of the
switch (crossed); when the switch is in the other position, the switch
connects the top 2 terminals (in that diagram) together, and the
bottom 2 terminals together. That makes any of the terminals common
to the 2 terminals opposite it.

This set of diagrams shows the actual operation of the circuit better:

http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/sw...WayStills.html

Josh

Josh,

thanks.

jc
"a man is never so sure he's right as he is the moment before he's proven
wrong"

"gcotterl" wrote in message
...
I have an L-shaped hallway with:

a ceiling light in the middle of each leg
a light switch at the end of each leg
a light switch at the intersection.

Several years ago, I used to be able to turn the lights on and off
from any switch. But now the lights can be turned on and off by only
one switch (at the end of one leg).

In previous attempts to resolve this problem, I replaced all of the
switches but I didn't record what wires went to each terminal.

Question: What kind of new switches do I need (single-pole, 3-way, 4-
way) and how many of each?

How do I determine what wire connects to each terminal of each switch?


Whenever a system like this craps out, the problem is invariably the 4 way
switch. They just don't seem to be made as well as single poles or 3 ways,
possibly because of it's switching complexity. For this reason I wouldn't
advise using a 4 way anywhere that it's not required. It's also more
expensive

On Nov 6, 4:39*pm, "RBM" wrote:
"gcotterl" wrote in message

...





I have an L-shaped hallway with:

* * a ceiling light in the middle of each leg
* * a light switch at the end of each leg
* * a light switch at the intersection.

Several years ago, I used to be able to turn the lights on and off
from any switch. *But now the lights can be turned on and off by only
one switch (at the end of one leg).

In previous attempts to resolve this problem, I replaced all of the
switches but I didn't record what wires went to each terminal.

Question: *What kind of new switches do I need (single-pole, 3-way, 4-
way) and how many of each?

How do I determine what wire connects to each terminal of each switch?

Whenever a system like this craps out, the problem is invariably the 4 way
switch. They just don't seem to be made as well as single poles or 3 ways,
possibly because of it's switching complexity. For this reason I wouldn't
advise using a 4 way anywhere that it's not required. It's also more
expensive

Hmm, I found an old snappy style 4-way at the base of the stairs when
I replaced it (could have been a three way, but apparently builders
used a 4-way because that's what they had the only reason I replaced
it was that the girl didn't like brown switches. It appears to have
been there since the late 40's. I still have it in my junk box...

or is this one "don't make 'em like they used to" kind of deals?

nate

"N8N" wrote in message
...
On Nov 6, 4:39 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"gcotterl" wrote in message

...





I have an L-shaped hallway with:

a ceiling light in the middle of each leg
a light switch at the end of each leg
a light switch at the intersection.

Several years ago, I used to be able to turn the lights on and off
from any switch. But now the lights can be turned on and off by only
one switch (at the end of one leg).

In previous attempts to resolve this problem, I replaced all of the
switches but I didn't record what wires went to each terminal.

Question: What kind of new switches do I need (single-pole, 3-way, 4-
way) and how many of each?

How do I determine what wire connects to each terminal of each switch?

Whenever a system like this craps out, the problem is invariably the 4 way
switch. They just don't seem to be made as well as single poles or 3 ways,
possibly because of it's switching complexity. For this reason I wouldn't
advise using a 4 way anywhere that it's not required. It's also more
expensive

Hmm, I found an old snappy style 4-way at the base of the stairs when
I replaced it (could have been a three way, but apparently builders
used a 4-way because that's what they had the only reason I replaced
it was that the girl didn't like brown switches. It appears to have
been there since the late 40's. I still have it in my junk box...

or is this one "don't make 'em like they used to" kind of deals?

nate

You can buy good switches today, but back in the forties, I don't think you
could buy crappy switches. I think that because it's a complex switch, it is
more vulnerable to failure. What I can say for certain is that whenever I'm
diagnosing a malfunctioning multi-switch system, the bad switch is
invariably, the 4way.

On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 07:35:03 -0800 (PST), gcotterl
wrote:

I have an L-shaped hallway with:

a ceiling light in the middle of each leg
a light switch at the end of each leg
a light switch at the intersection.

Several years ago, I used to be able to turn the lights on and off
from any switch. But now the lights can be turned on and off by only
one switch (at the end of one leg).

In previous attempts to resolve this problem, I replaced all of the
switches but I didn't record what wires went to each terminal.

Question: What kind of new switches do I need (single-pole, 3-way, 4-
way) and how many of each?

How do I determine what wire connects to each terminal of each switch?

Take all three switches loose and find the only hot wire in the bunch.
Put a 3 way there. Finished (The hot goes to the common)

Go to the 4 way and find the two wires the first switch makes hot when
you switch it back and forth. Put a 4 way there with those two wires
hooked to the same color terminals on the 4-way Finished

Go to the last 3 way and find the wire that does not get hot when you
flip the other two switches. Put that wire on the common of the last
3 way. Finished

Miller time

gcotterl wrote:
I have an L-shaped hallway with:

a ceiling light in the middle of each leg
a light switch at the end of each leg
a light switch at the intersection.

Several years ago, I used to be able to turn the lights on and off
from any switch. But now the lights can be turned on and off by only
one switch (at the end of one leg).

In previous attempts to resolve this problem, I replaced all of the
switches but I didn't record what wires went to each terminal.

Question: What kind of new switches do I need (single-pole, 3-way, 4-
way) and how many of each?

How do I determine what wire connects to each terminal of each switch?


try here for a diagram that may help you

http://www.electrical-online.com/4-wayswitch.htm

On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 18:41:09 GMT, "Joe" wrote:


"Josh" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 18:12:08 GMT, "Joe" wrote:

Josh,

How? if you number the terminals on a 4 way as 1 through 4, the hot ones
are 1 and 3 when the switch is in one position and the hots are 2 and 4
when
the switch is in the other position. There is not one terminal that is
'common'. If there's no common, then you don't have a terminal that goes
from the switch to the fixture (or, for that matter, there's no common for
the originating hot). If I'm misunderstanding this, please help me out.


The 4-way switch just passes through or crosses the wires from one
side to the other, depending on position. Putting 1 and 2 on the top,
and 3 and 4 on the bottom of the switch:

Switch down: 1 - 3, 2 - 4
Switch up: 1 - 4, 2 - 3

So to use as a 3-way, use terminal 1 as common, 3 and 4 for the
travelers, leaving 2 unused

Switch up: 1 - 3
Switch down: 1 - 4

Which is exactly what a 3-way switch does (and you can start from any
of the terminals as common, with the 2 furthest away for the
travelers).

Some diagrams of 3 and 4 way switch wiring:

http://www.ezdiyelectricity.com/?page_id=381

Josh

In every instance in the diagrams you posted, there is no terminal that is
always 'in use' on any of the 4 way switches. There is no common.

I didn't see it at first but Josh is right. You can use a 4-way for a
3-way.

1 2 1 2
X =
3 4 or 3 4 .

In one position 1 conects with 2 and in the other it connects with 4.
Don't use 3 and the remainder of the switch is like a 3-way.

In this diagram:
http://ezdiyelectricity.com/images/w...am-600x420.jpg
the terminals (1 & 2 on top, 3 & 4 on bottom), the terminals used are either
1 and 4 (top left and bottom right), or if the switch is thrown, 2 & 3 (top
right and bottom left). which terminal is the common?

No, your description is wrong here. In one position it is 1-4 and
2-3. If the wsitch is thrown, it's 1-3 and 2-4. Either 1 or 3 (but
not both) can be used as the common. 2 and 4 are meant for the
travelers.

Oh, I see you agreed a couple posts down.

On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 07:35:03 -0800 (PST), gcotterl
wrote:

I have an L-shaped hallway with:

a ceiling light in the middle of each leg
a light switch at the end of each leg
a light switch at the intersection.

Several years ago, I used to be able to turn the lights on and off
from any switch. But now the lights can be turned on and off by only
one switch (at the end of one leg).

In previous attempts to resolve this problem, I replaced all of the
switches but I didn't record what wires went to each terminal.

Question: What kind of new switches do I need (single-pole, 3-way, 4-
way) and how many of each?

How do I determine what wire connects to each terminal of each switch?

Yo're going to have to write everything down and figure it out like a
puzzle in the Sunday magazine or a game book. Make a drawing, assign
a label to each wire. Keep it as a permanent drawing in your file for
house repairs.

IIUC an electrician will have to do the same thing and will be only 2
or 3 times as fast as you are, while charging a lot for his time.

Acquaint yourself fully with the way 2 3-way and one 4 way swtich
systems work, but bear in mind that the 4-way in your case isn't
necessarily at the intersection, though it might be. Then acqquaint
yourself with other ways of connecting the lightbulb, not necessarily
at the end of three switches but in the middle possibly too, or before
all the switches. That's something I can't keep in my head myself,
but I've seen diagrams.

It may be best at some point to unscrew the lightbulb that is
controoled by all these switches to keep return voltages from
confusing you.

If you haven't changed any switches since this all worked, the one
switch or two is broken, but they are of the right kind. Check how
many wires is coming out of each. If you're lucky, that will firmly
establish which is the 4-way switch, but maybe not.

Measure the voltage at each wire. The voltage between that wire and
every other wire int he box and the voltage between each wire and
ground. Then flip the switch and measure again. Later you may want
to disconnect wires from the switch or from other switches to keep
from being confused by

By using an external wire that reaches from one switch to the other,
preferably with alligator clip jumpers on each end. first measure the
voltage between wires at different switches. In those cases where the
voltage is zero (analog meter) measure resistance. You're looking to
find which wire comes out where. The color of the wires should help
you find the other end of each wire, but sometimes they paint a black
wire white, etc. Always measure voltage before trying to measure
resistance.

It will be a fascinating puzzle, but if you make enough measuremennt
and apply logic for long enough you should be able to fighure out
which wire is hot, which is the neutral, whiche wires are travelers to
the second (logical) switch, and which are travelers from the second
switch to the the third, and which go to the light. But don't forget
that the second set of wires from the emiddle switch or the first
switch could got to the light and not be travelers at all.

On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 16:39:20 -0500, "RBM" wrote:


"gcotterl" wrote in message
...
I have an L-shaped hallway with:

a ceiling light in the middle of each leg
a light switch at the end of each leg
a light switch at the intersection.

Several years ago, I used to be able to turn the lights on and off
from any switch. But now the lights can be turned on and off by only
one switch (at the end of one leg).

In previous attempts to resolve this problem, I replaced all of the
switches but I didn't record what wires went to each terminal.

Question: What kind of new switches do I need (single-pole, 3-way, 4-
way) and how many of each?

How do I determine what wire connects to each terminal of each switch?


Whenever a system like this craps out, the problem is invariably the 4 way
switch. They just don't seem to be made as well as single poles or 3 ways,
possibly because of it's switching complexity. For this reason I wouldn't
advise using a 4 way anywhere that it's not required. It's also more
expensive

This would also be a good clue where the problem is!!!

On Nov 6, 1:12*pm, "Joe" wrote:
"Josh" wrote in message

...



On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 17:19:22 GMT, "Joe" wrote:

"N8N" wrote in message
....
On Nov 6, 10:35 am, gcotterl wrote:
I have an L-shaped hallway with:

a ceiling light in the middle of each leg
a light switch at the end of each leg
a light switch at the intersection.

Several years ago, I used to be able to turn the lights on and off
from any switch. But now the lights can be turned on and off by only
one switch (at the end of one leg).

In previous attempts to resolve this problem, I replaced all of the
switches but I didn't record what wires went to each terminal.

Question: What kind of new switches do I need (single-pole, 3-way, 4-
way) and how many of each?

How do I determine what wire connects to each terminal of each switch?

You need two three way switches and one four way (or you can use three
four way switches and just disregard one terminal on each.)

To determine how to hook them up, you'd have to open up all the boxes
and puzzle out the wiring. *There's many different ways they could be
hooked up and it is difficult to determine from here which you have

nate

You can't use a four way as a substitute for a 3-way. *There's no common
terminal on a four way switch.

Sure you can; any of the 4 terminals can be the common, with the
travelers connected to the opposite 2 (and the one directly across
unused).

To the OP, you need to continuity-check the wires to figure out which
ones are the "travelers" -- these go between the switches only. *The
original 3-way switch locations will have 2 travelers, the 4-way
location will have 4 travelers (2 each connected to the 2 at each
3-way location).

Google "4 way switch diagram" and you'll find more information --
there are many ways to run the physical wires, but they all degenerate
to the same switching flow.

Josh

Josh,

How? *if you number the terminals on a 4 way as 1 through 4, the hot ones
are 1 and 3 when the switch is in one position and the hots are 2 and 4 when
the switch is in the other position. *There is not one terminal that is
'common'. *If there's no common, then you don't have a terminal that goes
from the switch to the fixture (or, for that matter, there's no common for
the originating hot). *If *I'm misunderstanding this, please help me out.

These switches don't connect to the hot or the load they connect to
the travelers.

There are 4 terminals lets call them A, A+, B and B+
In one position A is connected A+ and B is connected to B+. In the
other position A is connect to B+ and B is connected to A+. Think
straight thru or crossing over. Draw a diagram of a 3 way switching
circuit and insert this switch between the two switches connected to
the travelers. Follow the current path as you change each switch. Draw
it out, work thru it until you understand it and tyou will never
forget it. Changing the position of the 4 way switch has the effect of
reversing the connection of the travelers on a 3 way switch. You can
have as many 4 way switches between the 3 way switches as you like. My
inlaw's house has a circuit with 4 four way ans 2 3 way switches to
control a light in the den

BTW in a pinch you can use a 4-way switch as a 3 way switch. let A or
A+ be the common and B and B+ will be the travelers Also if you choose
B or B+ as the common A and A+ will be connected to the travelers.

Jimmie

"gcotterl" wrote in message
...
I have an L-shaped hallway with:

a ceiling light in the middle of each leg
a light switch at the end of each leg
a light switch at the intersection.

Several years ago, I used to be able to turn the lights on and off
from any switch. But now the lights can be turned on and off by only
one switch (at the end of one leg).

In previous attempts to resolve this problem, I replaced all of the
switches but I didn't record what wires went to each terminal.

Question: What kind of new switches do I need (single-pole, 3-way, 4-
way) and how many of each?

How do I determine what wire connects to each terminal of each switch?

Bottom line is that if the wiring wasn't documented when the previous switch
replacement was attempted, you are probably going to have to do it by trial
and error. Lots of them! An electrician with proper meters could probably
figure out with a few tries, but doing it without them will take time.
Check out the diagrams for such an arrangement. It might seem obvious that
the 4-way is the one in the middle of your arrangement but that doesn't have
to be the case. Jot down what wires you have in each box, and you may also
need to pull the lights to check them as well. If there a 2 conductor wires
in a couple of the boxes, you can probably figure one of these is the
supply, the other perhaps the load (lights). With all the wires safely
separated, try turning on the power and testing for your hot. Then using a
meter try to identify each line. Finally you can figure out what the switch
configuration needs to be.

Mark wrote:

"gcotterl" wrote in message
...
I have an L-shaped hallway with:

a ceiling light in the middle of each leg
a light switch at the end of each leg
a light switch at the intersection.

Several years ago, I used to be able to turn the lights on and off
from any switch. But now the lights can be turned on and off by only
one switch (at the end of one leg).

In previous attempts to resolve this problem, I replaced all of the
switches but I didn't record what wires went to each terminal.

Question: What kind of new switches do I need (single-pole, 3-way, 4-
way) and how many of each?

How do I determine what wire connects to each terminal of each switch?

Bottom line is that if the wiring wasn't documented when the previous
switch replacement was attempted, you are probably going to have to do
it by trial and error. Lots of them! An electrician with proper meters
could probably figure out with a few tries, but doing it without them
will take time. Check out the diagrams for such an arrangement. It
might seem obvious that the 4-way is the one in the middle of your
arrangement but that doesn't have to be the case. Jot down what wires
you have in each box, and you may also need to pull the lights to check
them as well. If there a 2 conductor wires in a couple of the boxes,
you can probably figure one of these is the supply, the other perhaps
the load (lights). With all the wires safely separated, try turning on
the power and testing for your hot. Then using a meter try to identify
each line. Finally you can figure out what the switch configuration
needs to be.

In some older houses that is not the case, I have seen 3-ways where
there's a 3-wire switch leg from the ceiling box to each switch box.
Makes for a rat's nest in the ceiling box... (found this in the dining
room of the same old house that had the miswired 3-ways in the stairwell)

nate

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