When can these things be repaired, versus being replaced?

Forced-air gas heater didn't seem to be sending up any heat today, so
I cycled it a bunch of times, then finally descended to the 10x10
basement where it lives. Flame would come on, after a minute or three,
stay on for 10 seconds, then go out again. Blower kept blowing.

System was working fine two days ago - but for some years, it has had
the habit of turning on only slowly, after a minute or three of
waiting.

So I called one of the big chain repair places, they came in, popped
off the cover, told me the pilot was getting sucked away, and this was
a sign that the whole thing needs replacing, for about $10k. Plus,
the water heater looks like it's had a couple of leaks, might want to
replace it, too, for another $1,500.

Heat/Air is a Carrier unit circa 1984 (house much older), so it's not
like a newer, higher-efficiency unit might not be a good idea anyway.
Not sure of the water heater age, probably not that old.

This is a unit for a 2,000sqft house in suburban Los Angeles.

What surprises me is how quick the repair guys went to "Replace!".
Can't these things be repaired? How complex is a gas furnace anyway?

The repair guys seemed to know their business, I just wonder how much
of their business is doing replacement rather than repair, if you know
what I mean.

Me being a total newbie on this, any advice appreciated.

Thanks.

Josh

On Nov 2, 5:13*pm, JRStern wrote:
When can these things be repaired, versus being replaced?

Forced-air gas heater didn't seem to be sending up any heat today, so
I cycled it a bunch of times, then finally descended to the 10x10
basement where it lives. Flame would come on, after a minute or three,
stay on for 10 seconds, then go out again. *Blower kept blowing.

System was working fine two days ago - but for some years, it has had
the habit of turning on only slowly, after a minute or three of
waiting.

So I called one of the big chain repair places, they came in, popped
off the cover, told me the pilot was getting sucked away, and this was
a sign that the whole thing needs replacing, for about $10k. *Plus,
the water heater looks like it's had a couple of leaks, might want to
replace it, too, for another $1,500.

Heat/Air is a Carrier unit circa 1984 (house much older), so it's not
like a newer, higher-efficiency unit might not be a good idea anyway.
Not sure of the water heater age, probably not that old.

This is a unit for a 2,000sqft house in suburban Los Angeles.

What surprises me is how quick the repair guys went to "Replace!".
Can't these things be repaired? *How complex is a gas furnace anyway?

The repair guys seemed to know their business, I just wonder how much
of their business is doing replacement rather than repair, if you know
what I mean.

Me being a total newbie on this, any advice appreciated.

Thanks.

Josh

They make more money replacing units, you got a dishonest tech.

Forced-air gas heater didn't seem to be sending up any heat today, so
I cycled it a bunch of times, then finally descended to the 10x10
basement where it lives. Flame would come on, after a minute or three,
stay on for 10 seconds, then go out again. Blower kept blowing.

System was working fine two days ago - but for some years, it has had
the habit of turning on only slowly, after a minute or three of
waiting.

So I called one of the big chain repair places, they came in, popped
off the cover, told me the pilot was getting sucked away, and this was
a sign that the whole thing needs replacing, for about $10k. Plus,
the water heater looks like it's had a couple of leaks, might want to
replace it, too, for another $1,500.

Heat/Air is a Carrier unit circa 1984 (house much older), so it's not
like a newer, higher-efficiency unit might not be a good idea anyway.
Not sure of the water heater age, probably not that old.

This is a unit for a 2,000sqft house in suburban Los Angeles.

What surprises me is how quick the repair guys went to "Replace!".
Can't these things be repaired? How complex is a gas furnace anyway?

The repair guys seemed to know their business, I just wonder how much
of their business is doing replacement rather than repair, if you know
what I mean.

Me being a total newbie on this, any advice appreciated.



*Get several opinions and estimates before making a decision. The unit is
25 years old. You might spend a few hundred dollars to repair it and maybe
go another year until something else goes wrong.

ransley wrote:
....
They make more money replacing units, you got a dishonest tech.

Maybe, but certainly not necessarily.

Symptom can be sign of exchanger leak. I would have expected them to
have lit and done some testing for combustion gases first, though.

Certainly you'll want a second or even third opinion/bid before
committing. In LA area wouldn't think enough of a heat load that
efficiency on that side would matter terribly much but A/C upgrade could
potentially pay for itself relatively short order depending on what
efficiency it is.

--

JRStern wrote:
....

Can't someone just screw on a piece of sheet metal or something?
....

Yes, that's what they were concerned about.

Absolutely not. You're talking letting combustion gas products into the
living space here--CO poisoning, iow. Life or death matter, not simply
a few bucks.

--

I'd call another company. Or two. From what you describe,
it's repairable.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"JRStern" wrote in message
...
When can these things be repaired, versus being replaced?

Forced-air gas heater didn't seem to be sending up any heat
today, so
I cycled it a bunch of times, then finally descended to the
10x10
basement where it lives. Flame would come on, after a minute
or three,
stay on for 10 seconds, then go out again. Blower kept
blowing.

System was working fine two days ago - but for some years,
it has had
the habit of turning on only slowly, after a minute or three
of
waiting.

So I called one of the big chain repair places, they came
in, popped
off the cover, told me the pilot was getting sucked away,
and this was
a sign that the whole thing needs replacing, for about $10k.
Plus,
the water heater looks like it's had a couple of leaks,
might want to
replace it, too, for another $1,500.

Heat/Air is a Carrier unit circa 1984 (house much older), so
it's not
like a newer, higher-efficiency unit might not be a good
idea anyway.
Not sure of the water heater age, probably not that old.

This is a unit for a 2,000sqft house in suburban Los
Angeles.

What surprises me is how quick the repair guys went to
"Replace!".
Can't these things be repaired? How complex is a gas
furnace anyway?

The repair guys seemed to know their business, I just wonder
how much
of their business is doing replacement rather than repair,
if you know
what I mean.

Me being a total newbie on this, any advice appreciated.

Thanks.

Josh

I'm with you. I think gas is cheaper.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Frank" wrote in message
...

Two years ago, I replaced forced air, oil furnace for less
than half
what you have been quoted. Got a top of the line furnace
and I'm not
certain but I think gas furnaces are somewhat cheaper than
oil.

Stormin Mormon wrote:
I'd call another company. Or two. From what you describe,
it's repairable.

If it is a cracked exchanger causing the draft which sounds like they
confirmed, the cost of repair on that old an unit won't be worth it imo.

That still doesn't negate need for/desirability of second opinion/bid...

--

On Nov 2, 6:13*pm, JRStern wrote:
When can these things be repaired, versus being replaced?

Forced-air gas heater didn't seem to be sending up any heat today, so
I cycled it a bunch of times, then finally descended to the 10x10
basement where it lives. Flame would come on, after a minute or three,
stay on for 10 seconds, then go out again. *Blower kept blowing.

System was working fine two days ago - but for some years, it has had
the habit of turning on only slowly, after a minute or three of
waiting.

So I called one of the big chain repair places, they came in, popped
off the cover, told me the pilot was getting sucked away, and this was
a sign that the whole thing needs replacing, for about $10k. *Plus,
the water heater looks like it's had a couple of leaks, might want to
replace it, too, for another $1,500.

Heat/Air is a Carrier unit circa 1984 (house much older), so it's not
like a newer, higher-efficiency unit might not be a good idea anyway.
Not sure of the water heater age, probably not that old.

This is a unit for a 2,000sqft house in suburban Los Angeles.

What surprises me is how quick the repair guys went to "Replace!".
Can't these things be repaired? *How complex is a gas furnace anyway?

The repair guys seemed to know their business, I just wonder how much
of their business is doing replacement rather than repair, if you know
what I mean.

Me being a total newbie on this, any advice appreciated.

Thanks.

Josh

I just replaced mine it was 30 years old singer gas furnace. I did the
whole a/c and furnace replacement.I got the 2nd best system carrier
product line.
I got it for 7 grand installed in north carolina . it will make huge
difference in your gas bill. all the new systems use electric gas
ignition and no more pilot light. all the new furnaces have computer
chips in them with sensors for future accessories.you can't even
diagnosis your own system requires expensive software.

so in your part of the country everything is more expensive. so 10
grand might be a good number. make sure they do a quality job and
don't use reducers line on the ac line coming into the furnace.
installing a furance requires a permit these days and make sure they
do it right, it will add to your house value and taxes

what is your furnace specs look on the furance for BTU's. and
horsepower of the blower..

model numbers would be great and go from their. make sure you do your
Internet homework I'd say 1 month of researching before making a
decision.

ask friends and bosses about who did theirs,etc.....


good luck

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 16:35:03 -0800 (PST), flir67
wrote:

model numbers would be great and go from their. make sure you do your
Internet homework I'd say 1 month of researching before making a
decision.

Would like to have the time, but if it's really failed now, with cold
weather starting soon, don't really want to wait. Might even be a
real safety hazard - I dunno.

But it does occur to me that I do not have specific model numbers, I
will demand those when I speak to them again tomorrow.

J.

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 19:16:22 -0500, Frank
wrote:

Two years ago, I replaced forced air, oil furnace for less than half
what you have been quoted. Got a top of the line furnace and I'm not
certain but I think gas furnaces are somewhat cheaper than oil.

Including air?

I guess that's about half - plus they believe some ducting changes and
stuff are required by code.

Seemed very, very quick about their estimate, actually. That's either
major competence - or the opposite, I guess.

J.

On Nov 2, 6:24*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
I'm with you. I think gas is cheaper.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"Frank" wrote in message

...

Two years ago, I replaced forced air, oil furnace for less
than half
what you have been quoted. *Got a top of the line furnace
and I'm not
certain but I think gas furnaces are somewhat cheaper than
oil.

But did you also have air conditioning replaced??

dpb wrote:
JRStern wrote:
...

Can't someone just screw on a piece of sheet metal or something?
...

Yes, that's what they were concerned about.

Absolutely not. You're talking letting combustion gas products into
the living space here--CO poisoning, iow. Life or death matter, not
simply a few bucks.

Many of us grew up in homes with gas space heaters with no lingering
effects.

Look! A squirrel!

If one is worried about it, a CO detector is far cheaper than a squirrel.

JRStern wrote:
When can these things be repaired, versus being replaced?

Forced-air gas heater didn't seem to be sending up any heat today, so
I cycled it a bunch of times, then finally descended to the 10x10
basement where it lives. Flame would come on, after a minute or three,
stay on for 10 seconds, then go out again. Blower kept blowing.

System was working fine two days ago - but for some years, it has had
the habit of turning on only slowly, after a minute or three of
waiting.

So I called one of the big chain repair places, they came in, popped
off the cover, told me the pilot was getting sucked away, and this was
a sign that the whole thing needs replacing, for about $10k. Plus,
the water heater looks like it's had a couple of leaks, might want to
replace it, too, for another $1,500.

Heat/Air is a Carrier unit circa 1984 (house much older), so it's not
like a newer, higher-efficiency unit might not be a good idea anyway.
Not sure of the water heater age, probably not that old.

This is a unit for a 2,000sqft house in suburban Los Angeles.

What surprises me is how quick the repair guys went to "Replace!".
Can't these things be repaired? How complex is a gas furnace anyway?

The repair guys seemed to know their business, I just wonder how much
of their business is doing replacement rather than repair, if you know
what I mean.

Me being a total newbie on this, any advice appreciated.


There shold be a grey, 6x6" box into which the gas line enters and to which
the thermostat is connected (I forget its name). This is the "brains" of a
gas-fired system and can be obtained from Graingers for about $35.

Check yours out - it may have a button that says something like "turn on the
gas anyway."

I had one that refused to work until it got a couple of sharp raps with a
broom handle. Eventually it got replaced and all is now well.

"JRStern" wrote in message

a sign that the whole thing needs replacing, for about $10k. Plus,
the water heater looks like it's had a couple of leaks, might want to
replace it, too, for another $1,500.


IMO, he's giving you BS. If the water heater "had a couple of leaks" it
certainly did not repair itself. Replacements should be half or less that
what was quoted. If he is screwing you on the water heater, he is driving
in even deeper on the furnace.

Get another guy out there for a second opinion.

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 22:10:20 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

"JRStern" wrote in message

a sign that the whole thing needs replacing, for about $10k. Plus,
the water heater looks like it's had a couple of leaks, might want to
replace it, too, for another $1,500.


IMO, he's giving you BS. If the water heater "had a couple of leaks" it
certainly did not repair itself. Replacements should be half or less that
what was quoted. If he is screwing you on the water heater, he is driving
in even deeper on the furnace.

Get another guy out there for a second opinion.


Thanks all, have two more opinions lined up, may go for more.

J.

"JRStern" wrote in message
...
When can these things be repaired, versus being replaced?

Forced-air gas heater didn't seem to be sending up any heat today, so
I cycled it a bunch of times, then finally descended to the 10x10
basement where it lives. Flame would come on, after a minute or three,
stay on for 10 seconds, then go out again. Blower kept blowing.

System was working fine two days ago - but for some years, it has had
the habit of turning on only slowly, after a minute or three of
waiting.

So I called one of the big chain repair places, they came in, popped
off the cover, told me the pilot was getting sucked away, and this was
a sign that the whole thing needs replacing, for about $10k. Plus,
the water heater looks like it's had a couple of leaks, might want to
replace it, too, for another $1,500.

Heat/Air is a Carrier unit circa 1984 (house much older), so it's not
like a newer, higher-efficiency unit might not be a good idea anyway.
Not sure of the water heater age, probably not that old.

This is a unit for a 2,000sqft house in suburban Los Angeles.

What surprises me is how quick the repair guys went to "Replace!".
Can't these things be repaired? How complex is a gas furnace anyway?

The repair guys seemed to know their business, I just wonder how much
of their business is doing replacement rather than repair, if you know
what I mean.

Me being a total newbie on this, any advice appreciated.

Get several estimates on the same equipment. Installation is going to be
your biggest concern.

Off hand, I couldn't afford to live in LA, with prices like that!

I just replaced my own HW tank, ran me $450, and I was having a cow because
the last one was under $300. They changed the ignition, EPA regs or
something or other. But $1,500 for a gas fired one seems awful steep.
There's not much to installing one.

It's been 5 yrs for a furnace change out, along with A/C changed out. At
the time I had a 80% Carrier 2stage gas fired furnace, plus 11 seer a/c
unit installed. All 3 companies did a manual J? or something or other.
Ironically, 2 companies recommended the exact same equipment. The one
company came in almost $2,500 higher, than the other company. I flat out
told the guy he was that much higher. He asked the other company, said he
started out working for them, and didn't have 1 bad thing to say about
them. Just wondered how they could do it that cheap. I got everything
installed, plus permit for $5K. They had to do some new duct work since I
had an EAC installed also. Forget what the EAC ran me, but the duct work
was included in the price of the furnace install. Everything was phoned
into the shop for the sheet metal work, delivered within a couple hours.
Was a pretty neat operation, the 2 guys worked like a well oiled machine
together. Parts guy delivered the equipment, then brought the sheet metal &
took away the old. Very well organized company. The 2 installers belonged
to different unions. One was pipefitters, & I totally forget the other one.

I thought about going with a higher rated furnace, but heard pros & cons
about it. Mainly cost and how long it would take to get back.

I heard a/c has to be at least 12 seer now.

Do yourself a huge favor, and get several estimates, on comparable
equipment.

"Todd" wrote in message
...
The 2 installers belonged to different unions. One was pipefitters, & I
totally forget the other one.

Duh, the other one belonged to the sheet metal union.

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 22:47:01 -0500, "Todd" wrote:

Get several estimates on the same equipment. Installation is going to be
your biggest concern.

Off hand, I couldn't afford to live in LA, with prices like that!

Part of the price is squeezing the stuff down a 4x4' trap door into a
10x10' basement. I think the estimate was generous for the
aggravation.

BTW, it looks like the installation price 25 years ago, was very
nearly as high! I get the feeling that was not well priced back then!

Thanks for the other numbers, helps a lot.


J.



I just replaced my own HW tank, ran me $450, and I was having a cow because
the last one was under $300. They changed the ignition, EPA regs or
something or other. But $1,500 for a gas fired one seems awful steep.
There's not much to installing one.

It's been 5 yrs for a furnace change out, along with A/C changed out. At
the time I had a 80% Carrier 2stage gas fired furnace, plus 11 seer a/c
unit installed. All 3 companies did a manual J? or something or other.
Ironically, 2 companies recommended the exact same equipment. The one
company came in almost $2,500 higher, than the other company. I flat out
told the guy he was that much higher. He asked the other company, said he
started out working for them, and didn't have 1 bad thing to say about
them. Just wondered how they could do it that cheap. I got everything
installed, plus permit for $5K. They had to do some new duct work since I
had an EAC installed also. Forget what the EAC ran me, but the duct work
was included in the price of the furnace install. Everything was phoned
into the shop for the sheet metal work, delivered within a couple hours.
Was a pretty neat operation, the 2 guys worked like a well oiled machine
together. Parts guy delivered the equipment, then brought the sheet metal &
took away the old. Very well organized company. The 2 installers belonged
to different unions. One was pipefitters, & I totally forget the other one.

I thought about going with a higher rated furnace, but heard pros & cons
about it. Mainly cost and how long it would take to get back.

I heard a/c has to be at least 12 seer now.

Do yourself a huge favor, and get several estimates, on comparable
equipment.

Inland San Diego, which is probably similar to your location in LA.

We had our 25 year old hot-air gas furnaces and airconditioners (3 ton each)
replaced 2 years ago. Installed price was 8,000. Bids ranged from 16,000 to
7,000. You need to do a lot more homework. Also, make sure to take out a
permit. As part of the replacement you are required by law to have a
verification of your duct system. This cost another $ 500. If you don't do
it, it will bite you when you sell the house.

Also replaced our two water heaters, 40 gal. gas, last year: $ 800 each,
courtesy Home Depot. At $ 1500 for one, you are getting ripped off.

25 years is about the maximum life expectancy for gas furnaces. Don't go for
the expensive, high efficiency furnaces and air conditioners. We pay about $
100 a year for air conditioning electricity. Would take several lifetimes to
pay for high efficiency units.

--
Walter
www.rationality.net
-
"JRStern" wrote in message
...
When can these things be repaired, versus being replaced?

Forced-air gas heater didn't seem to be sending up any heat today, so
I cycled it a bunch of times, then finally descended to the 10x10
basement where it lives. Flame would come on, after a minute or three,
stay on for 10 seconds, then go out again. Blower kept blowing.

System was working fine two days ago - but for some years, it has had
the habit of turning on only slowly, after a minute or three of
waiting.

So I called one of the big chain repair places, they came in, popped
off the cover, told me the pilot was getting sucked away, and this was
a sign that the whole thing needs replacing, for about $10k. Plus,
the water heater looks like it's had a couple of leaks, might want to
replace it, too, for another $1,500.

Heat/Air is a Carrier unit circa 1984 (house much older), so it's not
like a newer, higher-efficiency unit might not be a good idea anyway.
Not sure of the water heater age, probably not that old.

This is a unit for a 2,000sqft house in suburban Los Angeles.

What surprises me is how quick the repair guys went to "Replace!".
Can't these things be repaired? How complex is a gas furnace anyway?

The repair guys seemed to know their business, I just wonder how much
of their business is doing replacement rather than repair, if you know
what I mean.

Me being a total newbie on this, any advice appreciated.

Thanks.

Josh

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 22:00:23 -0800, "Walter R." wrote:

Inland San Diego, which is probably similar to your location in LA.

Yes.

We had our 25 year old hot-air gas furnaces and airconditioners (3 ton each)
replaced 2 years ago. Installed price was 8,000. Bids ranged from 16,000 to
7,000. You need to do a lot more homework. Also, make sure to take out a
permit. As part of the replacement you are required by law to have a
verification of your duct system. This cost another $ 500. If you don't do
it, it will bite you when you sell the house.

We probably have some old asbestos hanging around,
how much of a $$ is that likely to be?


Also replaced our two water heaters, 40 gal. gas, last year: $ 800 each,
courtesy Home Depot. At $ 1500 for one, you are getting ripped off.

I guess I could call them for an estimate,
but they don't do the work, do they, just hook
you up with some "approved vendors"?


Again, these (both furnace and water heater) have to be manually
hauled into a very inconvenient hole - or else installed
in a new outside shelter somewhere. I can see a hundred dollars
or more premium for the difficulty. And they were saying new
ducts are necessary, another couple of hundred, I guess. But it
still may be high, thanks.


25 years is about the maximum life expectancy for gas furnaces. Don't go for
the expensive, high efficiency furnaces and air conditioners. We pay about $
100 a year for air conditioning electricity. Would take several lifetimes to
pay for high efficiency units.

Excellent point, thanks.

Even the run of the mill is probably a lot more efficient than
these old models, 1984 was just before the more-efficient appliances
movements began.

J.

On Nov 3, 2:50*am, JRStern wrote:
On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 22:00:23 -0800, "Walter R." wrote:
Inland San Diego, which is probably similar to your location in LA.

Yes.

We had our 25 year old hot-air gas furnaces and airconditioners (3 ton each)
replaced 2 years ago. Installed price was 8,000. Bids ranged from 16,000 to
7,000. You need to do a lot more homework. Also, make sure to take out a
permit. As part of the replacement you are required by law to have a
verification of your duct system. This cost another $ 500. If you don't do
it, it will bite you when you sell the house.

We probably have some old asbestos hanging around,
how much of a $$ is that likely to be?

Also replaced our two water heaters, 40 gal. gas, last year: $ 800 each,
courtesy Home Depot. At $ 1500 for one, you are getting ripped off.

I guess I could call them for an estimate,
but they don't do the work, do they, just hook
you up with some "approved vendors"?

Again, these (both furnace and water heater) have to be manually
hauled into a very inconvenient hole - or else installed
in a new outside shelter somewhere. *I can see a hundred dollars
or more premium for the difficulty. *And they were saying new
ducts are necessary, another couple of hundred, I guess. *But it
still may be high, thanks.

25 years is about the maximum life expectancy for gas furnaces. Don't go for
the expensive, high efficiency furnaces and air conditioners. We pay about $
100 a year for air conditioning electricity. Would take several lifetimes to
pay for high efficiency units.

Excellent point, thanks.

Even the run of the mill is probably a lot more efficient than
these old models, 1984 was just before the more-efficient appliances
movements began.

J.


Here in NJ companies are running newspaper ads for Trane 100K BTU
upright gas furnace and 13SEER AC for around $5k AFTER rebates and tax
credits. I think as of right now the tax credits for high eff units
expire the end of the year, though they might get extended. Make
sure you check on ALL rebates available from manufacturers, utility
companies, FED/state govt etc. They are substantial but only apply
to high eff models and now could be a good time to replace a 25 year
old unit.

"JRStern" wrote in message
...
When can these things be repaired, versus being replaced?

Forced-air gas heater didn't seem to be sending up any heat today, so
I cycled it a bunch of times, then finally descended to the 10x10
basement where it lives. Flame would come on, after a minute or three,
stay on for 10 seconds, then go out again. Blower kept blowing.

System was working fine two days ago - but for some years, it has had
the habit of turning on only slowly, after a minute or three of
waiting.

So I called one of the big chain repair places, they came in, popped
off the cover, told me the pilot was getting sucked away, and this was
a sign that the whole thing needs replacing, for about $10k. Plus,
the water heater looks like it's had a couple of leaks, might want to
replace it, too, for another $1,500.

Heat/Air is a Carrier unit circa 1984 (house much older), so it's not
like a newer, higher-efficiency unit might not be a good idea anyway.
Not sure of the water heater age, probably not that old.

This is a unit for a 2,000sqft house in suburban Los Angeles.

What surprises me is how quick the repair guys went to "Replace!".
Can't these things be repaired? How complex is a gas furnace anyway?

The repair guys seemed to know their business, I just wonder how much
of their business is doing replacement rather than repair, if you know
what I mean.

Me being a total newbie on this, any advice appreciated.

Thanks.

Someone mentioned buying a controller from Graingers for $35. I'd like to
see THAT!!
You can get a generic controller for about $100 from White-Rodgers, but
without a flame probe, and you will proly have to add extra blower relays.

If I understood the problem correctly, the flame going out is not a pilot
problem -- a pilot problem would prevent any ignition. The problem (now) is
the flame doesn't stay on, which could mean a flame probe/sensor problem.
Flame probes cost anywhere from $25 to $100.

Which doesn't mean the exchanger is *not* cracked, but I think this is dicey
to diagnose, as blowers can stir up ambient air around them as well, making
match/smoke tests difficult to assess.

Rewiring a furnace is not rocket science, but it does requre some
familiarity with basic electricity, relays, etc.
--
EA




Josh

"JRStern" wrote in message
When can these things be repaired, versus being replaced?


As you live in L.A. and it is not very cold there and not very hot in the
summer, I would say get it repaired if the cost to repair is less than about
50% of the replacement cost.

If you lived up north where heating is a major expense, then it would be a
good idea to replace it now rather than later because the energy savings on
new units would help to pay for it.

Or if you lived in Arizona with summer temperatures frequently around 110
F., then replace the A/C as the newer units can save quite a bit of
electricity and A/C is a major expense there.

On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 08:16:44 -0800, "Bill"
wrote:

"JRStern" wrote in message
When can these things be repaired, versus being replaced?


As you live in L.A. and it is not very cold there and not very hot in the
summer, I would say get it repaired if the cost to repair is less than about
50% of the replacement cost.

If you lived up north where heating is a major expense, then it would be a
good idea to replace it now rather than later because the energy savings on
new units would help to pay for it.

Or if you lived in Arizona with summer temperatures frequently around 110
F., then replace the A/C as the newer units can save quite a bit of
electricity and A/C is a major expense there.


Complicating life is that the heater is down in a cramped little
basement, do they really have to haul it back to the shop to work on
anyway?

BTW I also talked to the guy who gave me the quotes yesterday (and is
giving me a little high-pressure, it's in his job description, but
when I told him I just have to get some more bids, he was decent about
it), I said that $1500 for the water heater sounded high, and he said
yes, it's the cramped location, and see if other bids don't say the
same.

Thanks.

J.

JRStern wrote:
On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 22:00:23 -0800, "Walter R." wrote:

Inland San Diego, which is probably similar to your location in LA.

Yes.

We had our 25 year old hot-air gas furnaces and airconditioners (3 ton each)
replaced 2 years ago. Installed price was 8,000. Bids ranged from 16,000 to
7,000. You need to do a lot more homework. Also, make sure to take out a
permit. As part of the replacement you are required by law to have a
verification of your duct system. This cost another $ 500. If you don't do
it, it will bite you when you sell the house.

FWIW, a recent article I just ran across in one of my RSS feeds.....

http://www.freemoneyfinance.com/2009...nditioner.html

Todd wrote:

"JRStern" wrote in message
...
When can these things be repaired, versus being replaced?

Forced-air gas heater didn't seem to be sending up any heat today, so
I cycled it a bunch of times, then finally descended to the 10x10
basement where it lives. Flame would come on, after a minute or three,
stay on for 10 seconds, then go out again. Blower kept blowing.

System was working fine two days ago - but for some years, it has had
the habit of turning on only slowly, after a minute or three of
waiting.

So I called one of the big chain repair places, they came in, popped
off the cover, told me the pilot was getting sucked away, and this was
a sign that the whole thing needs replacing, for about $10k. Plus,
the water heater looks like it's had a couple of leaks, might want to
replace it, too, for another $1,500.

Heat/Air is a Carrier unit circa 1984 (house much older), so it's not
like a newer, higher-efficiency unit might not be a good idea anyway.
Not sure of the water heater age, probably not that old.

This is a unit for a 2,000sqft house in suburban Los Angeles.

What surprises me is how quick the repair guys went to "Replace!".
Can't these things be repaired? How complex is a gas furnace anyway?

The repair guys seemed to know their business, I just wonder how much
of their business is doing replacement rather than repair, if you know
what I mean.

Me being a total newbie on this, any advice appreciated.

Get several estimates on the same equipment. Installation is going to be
your biggest concern.

Off hand, I couldn't afford to live in LA, with prices like that!

I just replaced my own HW tank, ran me $450, and I was having a cow because
the last one was under $300. They changed the ignition, EPA regs or
something or other. But $1,500 for a gas fired one seems awful steep.
There's not much to installing one.

It's been 5 yrs for a furnace change out, along with A/C changed out. At
the time I had a 80% Carrier 2stage gas fired furnace, plus 11 seer a/c
unit installed. All 3 companies did a manual J? or something or other.
Ironically, 2 companies recommended the exact same equipment. The one
company came in almost $2,500 higher, than the other company. I flat out
told the guy he was that much higher. He asked the other company, said he
started out working for them, and didn't have 1 bad thing to say about
them. Just wondered how they could do it that cheap. I got everything
installed, plus permit for $5K. They had to do some new duct work since I
had an EAC installed also. Forget what the EAC ran me, but the duct work
was included in the price of the furnace install. Everything was phoned
into the shop for the sheet metal work, delivered within a couple hours.
Was a pretty neat operation, the 2 guys worked like a well oiled machine
together. Parts guy delivered the equipment, then brought the sheet metal &
took away the old. Very well organized company. The 2 installers belonged
to different unions. One was pipefitters, & I totally forget the other one.

I thought about going with a higher rated furnace, but heard pros & cons
about it. Mainly cost and how long it would take to get back.

I heard a/c has to be at least 12 seer now.

Do yourself a huge favor, and get several estimates, on comparable
equipment.

I expect the way the company could do the install so cheap was their
very efficient organization. Phoning in the duct info to someone back at
the shop vs. trucking back and forth, with nothing being done on side
during transit time could greatly increase the time to completion and
therefore the total labor costs and the number of jobs that could be
completed in a day.

"JRStern" wrote in message

When can these things be repaired, versus being replaced?

It's always easier and cheaper for a big company to hire teams of sellers
whose only goal is to scare you into getting a replacement. It takes far
less skilled labor to rip out something old and replace it with new gear
than it does to diagnose and fix a problem. If you're a rip and replace
shop, you don't have to have as many skilled mechanics, don't have to worry
about finding parts for old units, don't have to worry about your repairs
being up to code and don't have to take liability for anything that goes
wrong after they've worked on/tampered with your unit.

The problem is that things aren't engineered to last forever anymore, so
your 1984 unit is well likely to need replacement. Furnaces are relatively
simple devices. Even so, 25 years is a lot of "miles" for a unit that was
probably not built to last forever as some of the older units were.

Compare the heat exchanger on an old Chrylser Air Temp to a modern furnace
and you'll see why so many new exchangers die young. The old units were
massive (I had one that was the size of a VW bug) and it took moisture build
up a long, long time to eat through the exchanger. But lasting a long time
is a blessing and a curse. Technology moves so quickly that maintaining old
equipment often doesn't make good economic sense as newer equipment is often
incredibly more efficient than older designs.

I'm going to have to replace my unit soon, so I'm in the same boat. Old
furnace, old A/C and high climate control bills. Others have given very
good advice. Shop around, check the local consumer protection agency, check
the estimate they give you on the net, and beware the vendor who tries to do
what that double AA transmission franchise is famous for. They lowball the
price and then jack it when your furnace has been removed and the need for
extra equipment appears. You're stuck without heat and are pretty much bent
over the railing at that point.

Only careful checking of references and complaints can help you avoid that
sort of scamming scum. Furnaces, water heaters, A/Cs, mattresses and other
relatively "few per lifetime" purchases are favorites of dishonest vendors.
People buy them so infrequently that they don't have the same sense about
what the fair price should be as they do milk, gasoline or even new cars.
As a result, vendors know there's a terrible tendency for consumers to
overpay.

--
Bobby G.

"Walter R." wrote in
:

Inland San Diego, which is probably similar to your location in LA.

We had our 25 year old hot-air gas furnaces and airconditioners (3 ton
each) replaced 2 years ago. Installed price was 8,000. Bids ranged
from 16,000 to 7,000. You need to do a lot more homework. Also, make
sure to take out a permit. As part of the replacement you are required
by law to have a verification of your duct system.

I would expect the HVAC to do this and be part of the quote. It has to be
installed to code and it has to have inspection(s) like
gas/mechanical/electrical. When all inspections pass then final payment
is made.

This cost another $
500. If you don't do it, it will bite you when you sell the house.

Also replaced our two water heaters, 40 gal. gas, last year: $ 800
each, courtesy Home Depot. At $ 1500 for one, you are getting ripped
off.

25 years is about the maximum life expectancy for gas furnaces. Don't
go for the expensive, high efficiency furnaces and air conditioners.
We pay about $ 100 a year for air conditioning electricity. Would take
several lifetimes to pay for high efficiency units.

"Existential Angst" wrote in
:

"JRStern" wrote in message
...
When can these things be repaired, versus being replaced?

Forced-air gas heater didn't seem to be sending up any heat today, so
I cycled it a bunch of times, then finally descended to the 10x10
basement where it lives. Flame would come on, after a minute or
three, stay on for 10 seconds, then go out again. Blower kept
blowing.

System was working fine two days ago - but for some years, it has had
the habit of turning on only slowly, after a minute or three of
waiting.

So I called one of the big chain repair places, they came in, popped
off the cover, told me the pilot was getting sucked away, and this
was a sign that the whole thing needs replacing, for about $10k.
Plus, the water heater looks like it's had a couple of leaks, might
want to replace it, too, for another $1,500.

Heat/Air is a Carrier unit circa 1984 (house much older), so it's not
like a newer, higher-efficiency unit might not be a good idea anyway.
Not sure of the water heater age, probably not that old.

This is a unit for a 2,000sqft house in suburban Los Angeles.

What surprises me is how quick the repair guys went to "Replace!".
Can't these things be repaired? How complex is a gas furnace anyway?

The repair guys seemed to know their business, I just wonder how much
of their business is doing replacement rather than repair, if you
know what I mean.

Me being a total newbie on this, any advice appreciated.

Thanks.

Someone mentioned buying a controller from Graingers for $35. I'd
like to see THAT!!
You can get a generic controller for about $100 from White-Rodgers,
but without a flame probe, and you will proly have to add extra blower
relays.

If I understood the problem correctly, the flame going out is not a
pilot problem -- a pilot problem would prevent any ignition. The
problem (now) is the flame doesn't stay on, which could mean a flame
probe/sensor problem. Flame probes cost anywhere from $25 to $100.

Which doesn't mean the exchanger is *not* cracked, but I think this is
dicey to diagnose, as blowers can stir up ambient air around them as
well, making match/smoke tests difficult to assess.

Rewiring a furnace is not rocket science,

Neither is spelling "probably".

but it does requre some
familiarity with basic electricity, relays, etc.

On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 22:03:32 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

Only careful checking of references and complaints can help you avoid that
sort of scamming scum. Furnaces, water heaters, A/Cs, mattresses and other
relatively "few per lifetime" purchases are favorites of dishonest vendors.
People buy them so infrequently that they don't have the same sense about
what the fair price should be as they do milk, gasoline or even new cars.
As a result, vendors know there's a terrible tendency for consumers to
overpay.

Yes, the truth seems to be a little grey, and because it's "few per
lifetime" (been zero for me, I've mostly been a renter), I have no
real judgement.

But I'm glad I can ask here, and get some good advice!

Thanks.

J.

"Todd" wrote in message -

stuff snipped

Was a pretty neat operation, the 2 guys worked like a well oiled machine
together. Parts guy delivered the equipment, then brought the sheet metal
&
took away the old. Very well organized company. The 2 installers belonged
to different unions. One was pipefitters, & I totally forget the other
one.

You've described perfectly why it's much easier to "rip and replace" than to
repair something 25 years old that's been "worked on" by who knows how many
other people including the home-owner or his over-ambitious teen-age son.
Instead of working with an unknown entity, they are working with something
they've probably installed new several hundred times and the only tough part
is to shoehorn the new system into the old ductwork.

From what you describe, good installers have that base well-covered, too,
because each time an installer has to return, it's profit lost, so they've
honed it to a one-day process. Most new furnaces are much smaller than the
ones they are replacing, so fitting them is easy, sometimes easier than
opening the old furnace, pulling the exchanger, getting a replacement and
then returning to re-install it, test it, close it back up and discover that
something else is wrong that wasn't apparent the first time around.

The problem I have is when they start pulling 5 year old systems because
it's easier to "rip and replace" than spend any time diagnosing any but the
simplest failures. If you replace too soon, higher efficiency is offset
mightily by the dollars that got dragged off with the old furnace.

Todd, you're 101% about getting several estimates. Even if the cold winter
is approaching, buy a space heater, bite the bullet, do the research. It's
never, ever been easier to find out if a vendor is taking you for a ride
because you can plug in the estimate numbers on Google and get a very good
idea of the prices others are charging.

Once a vendor knows you've been talking to other vendors, a sort of Ebay
auction frenzy takes place and they almost all will cut you a deal in this
economic climate. The only one that might not will probably be the lowest
bid because they can't go lower without doing the job at a loss. There's
never a better time to do home improvement work than right after a big
housing boom busts when there are still plenty of contractors around who
haven't bitten the bullet and found other work. )-:

--
Bobby G.

On Nov 3, 11:16*am, "Bill" wrote:
"JRStern" *wrote in message
When can these things be repaired, versus being replaced?

As you live in L.A. and it is not very cold there and not very hot in the
summer, I would say get it repaired if the cost to repair is less than about
50% of the replacement cost.

IMO, You'd have to be nuts to put anyhwere near 50% of the replacement
cost into a 25 year old gas furnace. That is the typical life
expectancy for units of that era. With all the rebates and credits
available around here, NJ, which certainly is one of the more
expensive area, you can get a new furance and AC installed for about
$5000 after rebates and tax credit. Now way I'd sink say $2400 into
a 25 year old unit.





If you lived up north where heating is a major expense, then it would be a
good idea to replace it now rather than later because the energy savings on
new units would help to pay for it.


How about after he spends $2400 on it, two year later it has another
major failure?



Or if you lived in Arizona with summer temperatures frequently around 110
F., then replace the A/C as the newer units can save quite a bit of
electricity and A/C is a major expense there.

Replacing just the AC on a 25 year old gas furnace makes no sense to
me. Especially with all the rebates and credits available right now
that knock thousands off the actual cost.

IMO, You'd have to be nuts to put anyhwere near 50% of the
replacement cost into a 25 year old gas furnace.


It gets a bit complicated with heating and A/C due to more efficient new
models, rebates, etc....

Anyway with things other than that, I've seen some businesses have a policy
of ALWAYS repairing things if the repair cost is less than buying a new one.
One dollar less to repair, they will choose repair!

This makes a lot of financial sense. Take an apartment complex for example.
There may be 100 units. That is 100 refrigerators. Say 10 of these break
each year. And repair costs average 25% of the cost of a new refrigerator.
This policy could save thousands of dollars a year on refrigerator
maintenance ALONE!

Anyway that is the way some businesses decide the repair / replace
question...

"Red Green" wrote in message
...
"Existential Angst" wrote in
:

"JRStern" wrote in message
...
When can these things be repaired, versus being replaced?

Forced-air gas heater didn't seem to be sending up any heat today, so
I cycled it a bunch of times, then finally descended to the 10x10
basement where it lives. Flame would come on, after a minute or
three, stay on for 10 seconds, then go out again. Blower kept
blowing.

System was working fine two days ago - but for some years, it has had
the habit of turning on only slowly, after a minute or three of
waiting.

So I called one of the big chain repair places, they came in, popped
off the cover, told me the pilot was getting sucked away, and this
was a sign that the whole thing needs replacing, for about $10k.
Plus, the water heater looks like it's had a couple of leaks, might
want to replace it, too, for another $1,500.

Heat/Air is a Carrier unit circa 1984 (house much older), so it's not
like a newer, higher-efficiency unit might not be a good idea anyway.
Not sure of the water heater age, probably not that old.

This is a unit for a 2,000sqft house in suburban Los Angeles.

What surprises me is how quick the repair guys went to "Replace!".
Can't these things be repaired? How complex is a gas furnace anyway?

The repair guys seemed to know their business, I just wonder how much
of their business is doing replacement rather than repair, if you
know what I mean.

Me being a total newbie on this, any advice appreciated.

Thanks.

Someone mentioned buying a controller from Graingers for $35. I'd
like to see THAT!!
You can get a generic controller for about $100 from White-Rodgers,
but without a flame probe, and you will proly have to add extra blower
relays.

If I understood the problem correctly, the flame going out is not a
pilot problem -- a pilot problem would prevent any ignition. The
problem (now) is the flame doesn't stay on, which could mean a flame
probe/sensor problem. Flame probes cost anywhere from $25 to $100.

Which doesn't mean the exchanger is *not* cracked, but I think this is
dicey to diagnose, as blowers can stir up ambient air around them as
well, making match/smoke tests difficult to assess.

Rewiring a furnace is not rocket science,

Neither is spelling "probably".

I think you meant "proberbally".
--
EA




but it does requre some
familiarity with basic electricity, relays, etc.

"Bill" wrote in message
...
IMO, You'd have to be nuts to put anyhwere near 50% of the
replacement cost into a 25 year old gas furnace.


It gets a bit complicated with heating and A/C due to more efficient new
models, rebates, etc....


Less complicated than you think. I'm saving 40% on my fuel cost with a new
boiler. Easy decision. It is paying for itself.

Sadly, no. Be interesting if I did.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"JIMMIE" wrote in message
news:1dec9d49-13c2-4bfb-8c5c-

Got a buddy in Rochester, I know slim chance but do you know
Bill F
Gurney.

Jimmie

On Nov 3, 10:49*am, "Existential Angst"
wrote:
"JRStern" wrote in message

...





When can these things be repaired, versus being replaced?

Forced-air gas heater didn't seem to be sending up any heat today, so
I cycled it a bunch of times, then finally descended to the 10x10
basement where it lives. Flame would come on, after a minute or three,
stay on for 10 seconds, then go out again. *Blower kept blowing.

System was working fine two days ago - but for some years, it has had
the habit of turning on only slowly, after a minute or three of
waiting.

So I called one of the big chain repair places, they came in, popped
off the cover, told me the pilot was getting sucked away, and this was
a sign that the whole thing needs replacing, for about $10k. *Plus,
the water heater looks like it's had a couple of leaks, might want to
replace it, too, for another $1,500.

Heat/Air is a Carrier unit circa 1984 (house much older), so it's not
like a newer, higher-efficiency unit might not be a good idea anyway.
Not sure of the water heater age, probably not that old.

This is a unit for a 2,000sqft house in suburban Los Angeles.

What surprises me is how quick the repair guys went to "Replace!".
Can't these things be repaired? *How complex is a gas furnace anyway?

The repair guys seemed to know their business, I just wonder how much
of their business is doing replacement rather than repair, if you know
what I mean.

Me being a total newbie on this, any advice appreciated.

Thanks.

Someone mentioned buying a controller from Graingers for $35. *I'd like to
see THAT!!
You can get a generic controller for about $100 from White-Rodgers, but
without a flame probe, and you will proly have to add extra blower relays..

If I understood the problem correctly, the flame going out is not a pilot
problem -- a pilot problem would prevent any ignition. *The problem (now) is
the flame doesn't stay on, which could mean a flame probe/sensor problem.
Flame probes cost anywhere from $25 to $100.

Which doesn't mean the exchanger is *not* cracked, but I think this is dicey
to diagnose, as blowers can stir up ambient air around them as well, making
match/smoke tests difficult to assess.

Rewiring a furnace is not rocket science, but it does requre some
familiarity with basic electricity, relays, etc.
--
EA





Josh- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
We are in the process of replacing our 20 year furnace and air
conditioner with a furnace and air to air heat pump for $6500. That's
not including the federal tax credit of $1500 and the local energy
company's credit of $620. Couldn't pass up the deal. Michigan prices.

On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 18:28:00 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:


"Bill" wrote in message
...
IMO, You'd have to be nuts to put anyhwere near 50% of the
replacement cost into a 25 year old gas furnace.


It gets a bit complicated with heating and A/C due to more efficient new
models, rebates, etc....


Less complicated than you think. I'm saving 40% on my fuel cost with a new
boiler. Easy decision. It is paying for itself.

Replaced our 35 year old gas furnace with a high efficiency non
condensing furnace (High medium efficiency?) 2 stage burner, 2 speed
DC eductor fan and variable speed DC blower - didn't save a cent on
gas. The couple percent improvement in gas efficiency was countered by
the VAST improvement in blower efficiency - so the heat that was no
longer supplied by the inefficient blower motor had to be made up by
the gas.

It IS saving us significantly on electricity, however.

A 10% improvement in gas efficency would mean less than $50 per year,
and a "high efficency" furnace would not be 10% better than what we
got. Figured the extra expense, and generally shorter life of a
condensing furnace, would take too long to pay-back to make it worth
while.

Didn't replace the (still working well) 35 year old AC. A 14 SEER
would be nice - the old one is likely closer to 5 - but since we
generally only use it about 5 days a year, the payback on that one
would go to our grandchildren!!!

On Nov 4, 10:24*am, "Bill" wrote:
IMO, You'd have to be nuts to put anyhwere near 50% of the
replacement cost into a 25 year old gas furnace.

It gets a bit complicated with heating and A/C due to more efficient new
models, rebates, etc....

Anyway with things other than that, I've seen some businesses have a policy
of ALWAYS repairing things if the repair cost is less than buying a new one.
One dollar less to repair, they will choose repair!

Which just shows how foolish some business people can be and how much
more money they'd be making if they had some sense.




This makes a lot of financial sense. Take an apartment complex for example.
There may be 100 units. That is 100 refrigerators. Say 10 of these break
each year. And repair costs average 25% of the cost of a new refrigerator..
This policy could save thousands of dollars a year on refrigerator
maintenance ALONE!


I don't think so. You can buy a brand new refrigerator typical of
what you might find in many apartments for $400. Using your example,
I think it's highly unlikely that you're going to find the average
repair cost for a service call on a 25 year old refrigerators is going
to be 25%, which is only $100. That's where all the math breaks
down. And that's even before you factor in ****ed off tenants with
spoiled food, the overhead of the calls they make to management in the
middle of the night, how your apartment looks with a 25 year old unit
compared to others that may have newer appliances and command higher
rent, etc.

In the case of the OP's 25 year old gas furnace, I think most of us
here would agree it could make sense to put a few hundred dollars in
repairs to it under certain circumstances. However, I think very
few would say that it makes sense to put repairs costing anywhere near
half the cost of a new system into it.




Anyway that is the way some businesses decide the repair / replace
question...